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Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: The questions asked if movies have women and them, are

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Speaker 2: all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they

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Speaker 2: have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and best start changing

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Speaker 2: it with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Jamie, Hey, Caitlyn, biz.

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Speaker 4: Wha, it's me a secret b wait a second with

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Speaker 4: a secret life?

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Speaker 3: Is that a metaphor for something? I bet it is.

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Speaker 5: I honestly thought you were going to take a completely

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Speaker 5: different route.

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Speaker 4: Wait what did you think I was going?

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Speaker 5: Oh goodness, I thought you were gonna go like the

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Speaker 5: darker route with like with like t ray don't ask

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Speaker 5: me why.

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Speaker 4: No, I wait, like that guy. I mean, we'll talk

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Speaker 4: about it, but.

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Speaker 5: We'll talk about it.

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Speaker 3: Also, the fact that he's played by real life piece

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Speaker 3: of shit Paul Bettany or just like, oh wait, I

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Speaker 3: don't know about oh my, he's I mean, short story,

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Speaker 3: we'll tell you the show is in a second. But

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Speaker 3: he's Johnny Depp's best friend. And there was I was

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Speaker 3: like following that case very closely two years ago now,

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Speaker 3: and yeah, there's a lot of texts between him and

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Speaker 3: Johnny Depp that came up in court that were sort

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Speaker 3: of Paul Bettany being like, I agree, she's horrible and

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Speaker 3: like and much worse. So you know, this is your

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Speaker 3: public bulletin to.

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Speaker 5: Paul Bettany and Nate Parker suck.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we talked about Nate Parker on the last episode

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Speaker 4: that you were on four.

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Speaker 5: It's true.

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Speaker 3: Also Nate Parker is playing I think a horrible character too.

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Speaker 3: Like they're both at very least the two real life

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Speaker 3: bad men in this movie also play bad men in

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Speaker 3: the movie I don't know two thousand and eight. I

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Speaker 3: don't know. Yeah, we'll talk about it.

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Speaker 4: They're telling on themselves. I think in their performances.

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Speaker 3: They're like I can relate.

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Speaker 4: Hello, everyone, Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is

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Speaker 4: Caitlin Durda, my.

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Speaker 3: Name is Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast where

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Speaker 3: we take a closer look at your favorite movies using

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Speaker 3: an intersectional feminist lens. And today we have I just

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Speaker 3: want to get I mean, we already sort of started

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Speaker 3: this breeze. Yeah, let's bring our guess. Is this her

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Speaker 3: third fourth appearance? I can't even third? My gosh, wow.

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Speaker 5: Thank you ell so much for that. Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 3: Pat Trick hat Trick Hat trick. We've done it.

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Speaker 4: So the movie is The Secret Life of Bees. The

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Speaker 4: guest is They were the seventh Poet Laureate of Portland, Maine.

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Speaker 4: You can check out their poetry collections Judas and Suicide,

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Speaker 4: Refused a Second Date, and What's So Wrong with a

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Speaker 4: Pity Party?

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Speaker 1: Anyway.

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Speaker 4: You can also see their work in LGBTQ, Nation, Stylist,

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Speaker 4: and Full Stop, as well as interviews in Black Girl Nerds.

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Speaker 4: And you've heard her on our episodes on Perks of

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Speaker 4: Being a Wallflower and Beyond the Lights. It's Maya Williams.

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Speaker 3: Welcome.

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Speaker 5: Thank you for having me back, and thank you all

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Speaker 5: for your patients, for how there's always a crappy masculine

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Speaker 5: presenting person.

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Speaker 4: In the movies we have, I mean, for your patients.

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Speaker 4: Oh god, it is kind of inevitable. Yeah, unfortunately.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but every single.

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Speaker 3: One I know in three very different movies too.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Tell us about your relationship with Secret Life of Bees.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I read The Secret Life of Bees in the eighth

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Speaker 5: grade after I saw it in the movies with my family,

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Speaker 5: and I remember I remember this being like a comfort

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Speaker 5: movie at some point, and then I revisited it when

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Speaker 5: my first book came out because of its analysis on

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Speaker 5: like religion and black communities and suicidality, and I had

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Speaker 5: the opportunity to talk about it on the podcast Black

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Speaker 5: Girl Film Podcast. I am not a black girl, but

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Speaker 5: I will always support Black girls as a former black girl,

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Speaker 5: and so there's some things that I'll definitely repeat from today.

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Speaker 5: But I'm especially excited to talk about the religious landscape

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Speaker 5: from this book because I have book commentary and film

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Speaker 5: commentary notes to get. We're back on commentary's baby.

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Speaker 4: Yeah nice, So you have read the book? I have, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: good to know because I have not, but I have

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Speaker 4: read the Yeah. We would never read a book on

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Speaker 4: this podcast. As we've said, I did read the Wikipedia synopsis.

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Speaker 4: So I feel so you've been very prepared to discuss

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think Mayo Wee can agree they basically

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Speaker 4: read the book.

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Speaker 1: Proud of you, Jamie.

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Speaker 4: What about you? What's your relationship with the movie?

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Speaker 3: I also don't have a relationship really with this at all.

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Speaker 3: I was like, where do I remember this title? From

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Speaker 3: the airport? This was like a major Like this book

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Speaker 3: probably to this day is like at the airport. It's

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Speaker 3: at the airport, it's upfront, and you're just like someday

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna know what happens in these books that are

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Speaker 3: at the airport. And today was the day I learned

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Speaker 3: about what happened in this book that's at the airport.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, I'm very excited to discuss it. I

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Speaker 3: have like some interesting I'm excited to talk about, like

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Speaker 3: movies of this era too, because I feel like there

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Speaker 3: are two movies that and I don't mean to like compare,

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Speaker 3: I mean that have like a similar through line of

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Speaker 3: that came out within a couple of years of each other.

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Speaker 3: That are all movies that take place in the civil

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Speaker 3: rights era that I believe are all based on source

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Speaker 3: material by white writers that are ultimately somehow about white

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Speaker 3: teenage girls. I was also thinking of a movie I love,

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Speaker 3: but Harspray Very Guilty of This and The Help, which

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Speaker 3: I haven't seen but I double checked. So this was

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Speaker 3: very much like something that was in media at this time,

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Speaker 3: and I was kind I mean, I was torn because

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Speaker 3: I think the performances in this movie are really lovely

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Speaker 3: and I am not immune to the powers of baby

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Speaker 3: Dakota Fanning. I think like that scene with her at

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Speaker 3: the end is pretty incredible for a thirteen year old,

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Speaker 3: but it just it just felt like I don't know. Ultimately,

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Speaker 3: I was like, why is this movie about her? Like

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Speaker 3: it was just I don't know.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was like, Jennifer Hudson just won an oscar

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Speaker 3: and where and she disappears for half the movie? Like

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Speaker 3: make it make sense? And I'm excited to talk about

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Speaker 3: the production of this movie because I was, I mean like,

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Speaker 3: I mean, this is the second Gina Prince Bythwood movie

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Speaker 3: we've covered with Maya, but I think the fourth on

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Speaker 3: the show overall, because we've also done there with a

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Speaker 3: Woman King and love and basketball. Oh right, yes, yes, yes,

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Speaker 3: So this was this was not my favorite of hers,

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Speaker 3: and I was also like, I wonder what And then

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Speaker 3: I looked into like why there was an eight year

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Speaker 3: gap between her first and her second movie. I think

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Speaker 3: that there's a lot to say and I did a

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Speaker 3: little bit of research there. So I'm excited to talk

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Speaker 3: about like the context of how this film came together.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I don't know. I was like a little

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Speaker 3: conflicted because there were some scenes, in some moments in

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Speaker 3: this movie that really got me. And I think if

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Speaker 3: I saw it when it came out I would it

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Speaker 3: would have also been a comfort movie.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I hadn't seen this movie before. I hadn't read

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Speaker 4: the book, as I said, so this was my first.

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Speaker 3: But you read the Wikipedia page, but I read the

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Speaker 3: log it on Goodreads. You did it.

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Speaker 4: It's true. I'm an academic, I'm a scholar. I'm a

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Speaker 4: genius for having done that. And yeah, I wasn't totally

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Speaker 4: sure what to expect. And because of how my brain works,

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Speaker 4: when I hear the title of this movie, I confuse

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Speaker 4: it with Akila and the b Oh.

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Speaker 3: I was confusing it with a Secret Life of Pets.

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Speaker 4: I mean, yes, that too, Okay.

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Speaker 5: Brittany from the Black Girl Film podcast also said that, like, like,

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Speaker 5: oh no, it's not pet.

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Speaker 4: It's a different movie. And now I know that.

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Speaker 3: We still haven't covered Aequila in the Bee No, but

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Speaker 3: we should. There will come a day.

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Speaker 4: Yes, so I was kind of confusing Secret Life of

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Speaker 4: Bees with that movie, but now I know the difference

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Speaker 4: and Secret.

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Speaker 3: Life of the American Teenager. Like, oh yeah, anyways.

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Speaker 5: True, anything with the title the Secret blank blank blank,

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Speaker 5: if it doesn't have to do with pets, as you

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Speaker 5: pointed out, Jamie, like it has to like it has

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Speaker 5: to do with something about like some struggle with womanhood

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Speaker 5: or girlhood.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's true.

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Speaker 4: I mean a woman's heart is a deep ocean of secrets.

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Speaker 3: The secret life of Titanic. Oh yeah, that's really interesting.

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Speaker 3: I hadn't ever connected that, but you're totally right, that's bizarre.

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Speaker 3: I also we this is also my earlier this week

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Speaker 3: we covered b movie, so.

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Speaker 5: We've just excited for that episode.

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Speaker 3: Is on the brain this week. And I also, I mean,

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Speaker 3: I can't decide if I am being overly like I

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Speaker 3: wish the movie just said this, but I'm like, bees

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Speaker 3: are a matriarchy. The community in this movie is a matriarchy.

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Speaker 3: Why aren't we talking more about it?

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Speaker 5: The book is more explicit about it, and like, okay,

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Speaker 5: and in the commentary they talk about how like, oh,

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Speaker 5: this is one of the few film sets where we

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Speaker 5: got to work with a bunch of women not only

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Speaker 5: on camera but behind the camera. But but yeah, in

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Speaker 5: the book there are all these like epigraphs about about

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Speaker 5: the matriarchy of bees and how like you don't need

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Speaker 5: the male bees until you need to reproduce and stuff

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Speaker 5: like that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah that's like, yeah, the I mean we were talking

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Speaker 3: about it the other day, like the male bees, you know,

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Speaker 3: fuck and then their dicks explode and then they're gone,

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Speaker 3: and you're.

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Speaker 4: Like, yeah, they die, all right, and they serve that

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Speaker 4: one purpose.

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Speaker 3: How I feel anyways. Yes, okay, so we're all kind

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Speaker 3: of coming from slightly different places here. Yeah, I'm excited

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Speaker 3: to talk about it.

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Speaker 4: There's lots to talk about. Let's take a quick break

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Speaker 4: and then we'll come back for the recap. B We're back.

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Speaker 4: W Yeah, I'll watch out.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, at least, here's what I'll say for

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Speaker 3: Secret Life of Bees. It is the best movie about

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Speaker 3: bees we've covered this.

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Speaker 5: Week, and I believe it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, at least. Uh, you know, I have gripes with

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Speaker 3: this movie, but it is not about a capitalist, patriarchal

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Speaker 3: conception of bees starring a zionist bee. So you know,

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Speaker 3: not a high bar to clear, but you know, we're.

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Speaker 4: The saying, yeah, this one is far better at least. Okay,

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Speaker 4: So here's the recap of Secret Life of Bees. I'll

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Speaker 4: place a content warning at the top here for anti

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Speaker 4: black racism and violence, child abuse, domestic abuse, and suicide

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Speaker 4: and suicidal ideation. So we open on a scene where

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Speaker 4: a four year old girl, Lily is hiding in a

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Speaker 4: closet while her father is being abusive to her mother.

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Speaker 4: A gun is dropped in front of Lily and she

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Speaker 4: picks it up and shoots it by accident, killing her mother.

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Speaker 4: We cut to ten years later. It's nineteen sixty four.

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Speaker 4: Lily is about to turn fourteen. She's played by Dakota Fanning.

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Speaker 4: She lives on a peach farm with her father t Ray,

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Speaker 4: played by a piece of shit Paul Bettany, who is

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Speaker 4: still cold and cruel. For her birthday, all Lily wants

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Speaker 4: is for him to tell her what her mom was like.

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Speaker 4: And all he has to say about Lily's mom is

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Speaker 4: that she was obsessed with saving bugs, and Lily seems

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Speaker 4: to have the same kind of fascination with insects. Bees

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Speaker 4: seem to be just kind of like swarming to her

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Speaker 4: and they're drawn to her.

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Speaker 3: I do like the literary concept of being a bug

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Speaker 3: girl as like a hereditary trait.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, true.

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Speaker 5: Well with her mom it was cockroaches, and we'll get

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Speaker 5: into why that is and like and yet.

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Speaker 3: With Lily it's bees, Yeah yeah, and roach girl is hardcore.

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Speaker 4: I mean, wouldn't be me. I'll say that I do

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Speaker 4: not like bugs.

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Speaker 5: My OCD and bugs are not impatible.

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Speaker 4: Not a big fan myself, But that night, Lily goes

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Speaker 4: outside and digs up a box where she keeps some

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Speaker 4: of her mom's belongings, including an illustration on a small

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Speaker 4: plaque of wood that depicts a black virgin Mary and

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Speaker 4: baby Jesus and it says Tiberan on the back, which

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Speaker 4: is the name of a town in South Carolina where

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Speaker 4: they are. Tray finds Lily outside at night and reprimands her.

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Speaker 4: He makes her kneel in dry grits.

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Speaker 3: He also thinks that she's been like having sex with

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Speaker 3: someone too, that's he implied.

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Speaker 4: Yeah for sure, Yeah, yeah yeah, and so he's, you know,

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Speaker 4: abusively punishing her. We also meet their housekeeper, Rosaline, played

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Speaker 4: by Jennifer Hudson of Cat's Fame.

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Speaker 3: Of course, like Cas Jennifer Hudson, fun fun Jennifer Hudson.

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Speaker 3: In fact, she stays at the hotel that my fiance

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Speaker 3: works at. Your fiance, my fiance, and she is very

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Speaker 3: nice the end.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I love that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So President Johnson has just signed the Civil Rights Bill

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Speaker 4: into law, which makes it easier for black people to vote.

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Speaker 4: So Rosaline and Lily go into town. So that Rosaline

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Speaker 4: can register to vote, but on the way, three white

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Speaker 4: men harass and attack Rosaline, but because of anti black racism,

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Speaker 4: Rosaline is the one who is arrested. Back home, t

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Speaker 4: Ray and Lily argue. Tiray tells her that before her

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Speaker 4: mother died, she had left Lily and that the night

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Speaker 4: that she was shot, her mother had come back only

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Speaker 4: to collect the rest of her things before leaving forever,

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Speaker 4: and Lily refuses to believe this and wants to think

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Speaker 4: that her mom was coming back to take her with her.

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Speaker 4: So Lily runs away from home.

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Speaker 5: And writes a note that says something like liars like

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Speaker 5: you sure, rotten Hell.

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Speaker 3: I that was like, yeah, I appreciated that. No, and

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Speaker 3: I was like, good for you.

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Speaker 4: I mean, not to keep invoking Titanic, but it's similar

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Speaker 4: to the note that Rose leaves to cal where she's like,

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Speaker 4: now you can keep both of us locked in. You're safe.

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Speaker 3: I know, but like, but I do like that this

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Speaker 3: like it also feels so like I don't know, it

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Speaker 3: just very empowering to see her be like bye dad,

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Speaker 3: rotten Hell. You're like, whoa fuck? Yeah, because she's right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. So she runs away. She goes to the hospital

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Speaker 4: to collect Rosaline, who is there recovering after having been

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Speaker 4: beaten before she's sent to jail, so they escape together

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Speaker 4: and they head to that town of Tiberon. They stop

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Speaker 4: for some food and Lily sees all of these jars

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Speaker 4: of honey that have that same label on them that

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Speaker 4: she's seen before, that same image of the Black Mary

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Speaker 4: and Jesus that was on the wood in the box

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Speaker 4: of her mother's belongings, and the shopkeeper explains that a

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Speaker 4: black woman named August Boatwright makes this brand of honey

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Speaker 4: and it's the best honey in South Carolina.

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Speaker 3: August but the boat right, sisters, is so literary, you're

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Speaker 3: just like, it's good, good literary names.

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Speaker 4: So Lily and Rosaline find August's big pink house amazing,

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Speaker 4: and they knock on the door and Lily tells August

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Speaker 4: played by Queen Latifah and her sisters June and May

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Speaker 4: played by Alicia Keys and Sophie Okonado that they need

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Speaker 4: a place to stay. But Lily lies and says that

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Speaker 4: both of her parents have died and she and Rosaline

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Speaker 4: are on their way to stay with her aunt, and

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Speaker 4: they'll work for August until they can afford a train ticket.

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Speaker 4: June is suspicious of this story and she doesn't like

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Speaker 4: the idea of them staying understand, but August is more

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Speaker 4: kind of like warm and sympathetic, so she's like, sure,

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Speaker 4: you can stay in the honeyhouse and cook and help

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Speaker 4: with the bees. So Lily and Rosaline settle in. August

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Speaker 4: starts to show Lily the ropes of bee keeping, and

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Speaker 4: Lily really takes to it. She is not afraid of

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Speaker 4: bees or anything. And it made me wonder and I

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Speaker 4: forgot to look this up, but I'm like, I wonder

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Speaker 4: if like Dakota Fanning is or is not afraid of bees.

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Speaker 4: I wonder if Queen Latifa is or is not afraid

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Speaker 4: of bees.

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Speaker 5: Oh so Queen Latifa, Tristan Wilds, who plays Zach, and

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Speaker 5: Dakota Fanning each had to go through bee keeping training

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Speaker 5: for the film.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I also read that Gina Prince Bythwood is deadly

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Speaker 3: afraid of bees as well. Yes, And it was like

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Speaker 3: they had to sort of all get through it together

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Speaker 3: of like, Okay, if I can be near the bees,

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Speaker 3: that you could be near the bees. And I guess

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Speaker 3: that there's only there's only one cgi shot of bees

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Speaker 3: and I don't think I would have been if I

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Speaker 3: had directed this movie, I would not have been that brave.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, na, you know it's gonna know, no, it's

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Speaker 3: gonna be yeah.

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Speaker 4: And I didn't even notice what was cgi and what

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Speaker 4: yeah wasn't so that good job there, But I am

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Speaker 4: I am so afraid of bees. I would not ever

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Speaker 4: be in a b movie me neither. I'll say that.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I want to be brave. I our

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Speaker 3: our friend Alex who was recently on the show, used

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Speaker 3: to be a bee keeper, and like, some day, some

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Speaker 3: day I'll be. But yeah, I know, I'm terrified of them.

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Speaker 4: They're so scary.

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Speaker 5: Love their work though exactly, I don't want to be

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Speaker 5: scared of them, and because of their work and and

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Speaker 5: I just just a yeah, and I know they were

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Speaker 5: here first. I'm still afraid of them.

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Speaker 3: I'm not trying to get in their way, I'm not

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Speaker 3: trying to disrupt them.

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Speaker 4: But it's just like I would never kill a bee,

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Speaker 4: let's be clear. I mean they're important to the world.

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Speaker 3: I got my first beasting last year, which is like

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Speaker 3: wild that it took that long, Oh my god, but

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Speaker 3: it was when I was in Yeah, I was I

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Speaker 3: was at the beach and it like it was trying

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Speaker 3: to sting me in and so I swatted and then

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Speaker 3: but it was just like no, no, this is I'm

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Speaker 3: literally dying on this hill and it stung me in

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Speaker 3: the middle of my forehead. It was so bizarre. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: oh my gosh. Look much like many people in this movie,

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Speaker 3: I've learned to forgive and move on. But yes, a

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Speaker 3: difficult be experience.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so we learn more about the sisters, the boat

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Speaker 4: right sisters and their lives. June is with this guy

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Speaker 4: named Neil played by Nate Parker, also real life piece

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Speaker 4: of shit, who wants to marry her, but she doesn't

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Speaker 4: want to be married, so she keeps saying no.

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Speaker 5: And in the books she got left at the altar

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Speaker 5: by a different man.

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Speaker 3: Interesting, Oh so that's why.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And like, there's even a deleted scene where I believe,

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Speaker 5: I believe Rosaline like tries to call her out and say, like, listen,

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Speaker 5: you need to need to live your life. I know

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Speaker 5: your husband left you at the altar or whatever, but

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Speaker 5: you need to get over yourself or whatever. But that

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Speaker 5: scene got deleted.

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Speaker 3: Interesting. I don't know if I would like that better

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Speaker 3: or worse. I feel like if they removed that plot point.

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Speaker 3: I wish they had changed the ending for this character because.

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Speaker 4: I find it very frustrating.

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Speaker 3: In my notes, I wrote, like, so help me if

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Speaker 3: she marries this guy at the end, and spoiler alert,

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Speaker 3: sure enough, she does.

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Speaker 4: She does it. Yeah, so that's June. She also plays

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Speaker 4: the cello.

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Speaker 5: And Alicia Keys studied the cello.

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Speaker 3: Yes, gosh, I didn't even know has Alicia Key's been

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Speaker 3: in other movies. I didn't know that she had a

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Speaker 3: like she has been in other movies.

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Speaker 5: Really, Oh my goodness, And okay, I knew that, and like,

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Speaker 5: oh my gosh, I'm blanking. I'm blanking on the title.

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Speaker 5: Oh no, I just I just saw this with my

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00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 5: friend with my best friend a month ago. She and

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Speaker 5: Taraji p Henson play in the very silly action movie

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Speaker 5: and they're a lesbian couple and it's so entertaining, Like,

390
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Speaker 5: oh my god. They're not the main characters of the story.

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Speaker 5: There are other characters in it. Ryan Reynolds is in

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Speaker 5: it and stuff. Ray Leota was in it.

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Speaker 4: She was in smoking aces, smoking aces things.

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Speaker 3: That's it.

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Speaker 4: That's the one. Okay, wow, good for her. Yeah, she's

396
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Speaker 4: in a few things, big fan. So that's June. May

397
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Speaker 4: is very sensitive and deeply empathic. She breaks down crying

398
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Speaker 4: quite often. We learned that she had a twin sister, April,

399
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Speaker 4: who died when they were younger, which was incredibly devastating

400
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Speaker 4: for May.

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Speaker 5: There's very necessary context that they meant that they left

402
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 5: out from the book about April, and they don't even

403
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,480
Speaker 5: touch upon it in the commentary either, which makes me

404
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,399
Speaker 5: very upset in either commentaries that I watched for this. So,

405
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,439
Speaker 5: April and May are twins, and then there is an

406
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Speaker 5: incident of at a candy store and she expresses upsetness

407
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Speaker 5: with her father about it, and then her father's like,

408
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 5: that's life, April, You're gonna have to put up with it.

409
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Speaker 5: And then so then April just feels so much of

410
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Speaker 5: the weight of the world after that incident, to the

411
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Speaker 5: point where she takes a gun and takes her own life.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 5: And so when we talk about May later, there's a

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Speaker 5: part of the book where June says, it's just like April,

415
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Speaker 5: and it makes me this really upset that they took

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00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 5: out that context from the movie. Yeah, And granted, like

417
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Speaker 5: I'm pretty sure some of it has to do if

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Speaker 5: like Gina Prince Fyke would saying things like we shouldn't

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Speaker 5: have to over explain ourselves, which they talked about a

420
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Speaker 5: little bit in the and the commentary about certain plot

421
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Speaker 5: points such as like June's backstory about being left at

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Speaker 5: the altar. But yeah, I hate it.

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Speaker 3: That the adaptation changes sound so bizarre, like I don't

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Speaker 3: need what is even the I guess it's yeah, like

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Speaker 3: we have to quote unquote keep it light, and it's like, well,

426
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Speaker 3: in that case, she's a different text. Yeah, I don't know, right. Interesting.

427
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Speaker 3: I also just wanted to really quickly shout out Sophie

428
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,879
Speaker 3: Okinado because she is like so unbelievably accomplished. She's been

429
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 3: nominated for every award under the sun. I saw her

430
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 3: most recently in Janet Planet.

431
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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, but she's.

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Speaker 3: Also she was like nominated for an Oscar for her

433
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Speaker 3: performance in Hotel Rwanda. She's won a Tony.

434
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Speaker 4: She's like such a good movie.

435
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 3: She's done everything. But I feel like people don't really

436
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 3: talk about her very much. I feel like she usually

437
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 3: plays supporting roles, So just shout out to her.

438
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 4: Definitely. Yeah, so we learned this about her character May,

439
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 4: and Lily has also discovered that May wedges these little

440
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 4: pieces of paper in a stone wall behind the house,

441
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 4: and it's her writing her like feelings on the paper

442
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,719
Speaker 4: and putting him in the wall. So we learn these

443
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 4: things about the sisters. We also see them often discussing

444
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 4: things like racism and depression that they observe and experience

445
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 4: at the hands of white people. So there's a number

446
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 4: of conversations to that effect throughout the movie. Then Lily

447
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 4: meets Zach played by Tristan mac Wilde's. This is August's godson.

448
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 5: Who is Adele's love in. Tristan, Hello, I'm sorry I

449
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 5: keep inter.

450
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 3: Rept Oh my god, no, can't wait. Fun fact. Never

451
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 3: never would have known.

452
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think. I never watch music videos, so

453
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 4: I didn't know that.

454
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 3: He wasn't seen that one in years.

455
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 4: So Zach is close to Lily's age, I think a

456
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 4: couple years older because he has a driver's license and drive,

457
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 4: so he's at least sixteen.

458
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, in the book he's sixteen. By the time this

459
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 5: was being filmed, Dakota Fanning was thirteen going on fourteen

460
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 5: and Tristan was eighteen going on nineteen.

461
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,439
Speaker 4: Oh oh that is yeah, then that's upsetting based on

462
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 4: something that happens later, which is the kiss on screen. Okay,

463
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,880
Speaker 4: well we'll go back to that.

464
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:06,880
Speaker 5: Yes we will.

465
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 4: So Zach helps August with bee keeping as well, and

466
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 4: he and Lily become friends. He tells her that he

467
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,239
Speaker 4: wants to be a lawyer when he grows up. She

468
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 4: wants to be a writer. They're vibing, but a.

469
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,679
Speaker 5: Quick, quick thing. Yeah, how okay? How is it that

470
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 5: the same girl who is willing to watch things about

471
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,479
Speaker 5: like the Civil Rights Act passing with Rosaline not know

472
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 5: who third Good Marshal is.

473
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's ok.

474
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 4: There's a lot to discuss about.

475
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 3: That, and it's it is like one of the things

476
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 3: that I feel like, you can you know, however well intentioned,

477
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 3: like if you can feel that like a white lady

478
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 3: wrote the source material, because sometimes it just feels like

479
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 3: very broad in a way that like is like this

480
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 3: young white girl learns about racism, which is also basically

481
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,719
Speaker 3: Hairspray and The Help. It's like, why can't it just

482
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 3: be about Roslyne? Unfortunately? I mean I don't even dislike

483
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 3: the character of Lily. I don't dislike her journey. I

484
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 3: think that there is it's a very but it just

485
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 3: feels like she overshadows so much of what is it? Like,

486
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 3: I think you could write her out of the movie

487
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 3: for sure, pretty easily. It just feels like there's two

488
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 3: different stories that Yeah, Roslyne and the sisters are just

489
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 3: like not getting the amount of narrative real estate that

490
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:35,400
Speaker 3: they deserve exactly.

491
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 5: And then the commentary, Gina talks about how in the

492
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 5: in the scene where she's first having breakfast with the

493
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 5: boat right sisters, she was all like, we really wanted

494
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 5: to showcase Lily being taken care of for the first time,

495
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 5: where she's not making food for her father instead others

496
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 5: are making food for her. And I have such mixed

497
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 5: feelings about that because I'm like, if you really want

498
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 5: to show a loving, collaborative thing when you have this

499
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 5: young white girl as the as the centerpiece, you could

500
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 5: have made the scene where they're cooking together, right and

501
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 5: that being loving, Because yeah, I'm not a big fan

502
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 5: of like all these black women, with the exception of June.

503
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 5: June is like I don't have time for this, but

504
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 5: like a lot of these black women being like, oh

505
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,120
Speaker 5: are you okay, Let's make you food and da da.

506
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 3: Da, Right, Yeah, I agree, which is it's just like

507
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 3: such a media fixture of this decade.

508
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 4: Right because at the end of the day, it's still

509
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 4: a story about black characters like servicing the white main protagonist.

510
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 3: And raising her and yeah, you know, and that just

511
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,400
Speaker 3: obviously doesn't sit well. And then you're also like, it's

512
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 3: not that I don't want Lily to be loved and

513
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 3: cared for it, but like, why was this the narrative solution,

514
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 3: Like you're saying, Maya, there's like simple things that the

515
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 3: story could have done to I don't know, rectify it.

516
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 3: I don't know. Maybe it's not a completely solvable thing, but.

517
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll discuss that further as well. So it's been

518
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 4: about a week since Lily has arrived at the Boatwright

519
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 4: House and June continues to be skeptical. She's like, why

520
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 4: are you still here? Lily's just like haha, idkay, And

521
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 4: then she asks about the honey jar label that depicts

522
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 4: a black virgin Mary and baby Jesus and August. With

523
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 4: the help of her church friends.

524
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 5: The Daughters of Mary.

525
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, they have their own religion.

526
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 3: Question Mark.

527
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 4: I wasn't super clear on that, but I'll touch.

528
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 3: On that when we get It's like, we have the

529
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 3: right guests.

530
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 4: So August tells a story about an enslaved man who

531
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 4: had come across this wooden figure of a woman who

532
00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 4: God sent to protect him. August now has this wooden figure.

533
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 4: You're in her home and they touch her heart and pray,

534
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 4: and Lily's about to go do this like touching the

535
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 4: wood figure's heart, but memories of her past and her

536
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 4: mother's death come flooding back and she faints and.

537
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 5: June stops playing the cello right then and there, Yeah,

538
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 5: I like, don't I don't want you touching her?

539
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 3: I yeah, I was like, I have a lot of

540
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 3: empathy for Lily. But yeah, my note there was like,

541
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 3: it's not about you right now, Lily, chill out there.

542
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 3: You traumatize thirteen year old how dare you?

543
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 4: And Lily, you know, recovers. Things continue on as they

544
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 4: had been. She's you know, crushing on Zach and wants

545
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 4: to smooch him on the face. Then there's a scene

546
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 4: where they harvest purple honey and she licks it off

547
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,479
Speaker 4: Zach's finger, and I was so scandalized by that scene.

548
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

549
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 5: In the commentary, they had talked about like, so do

550
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 5: we portray this do we not portray this? D Dakota

551
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 5: Fannings's mom was there that day and she was like,

552
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 5: I'm not gonna look at the screen. They decided to

553
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 5: do it because it was it was a scene from

554
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 5: the book.

555
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 4: So well, now that I know that he was legally

556
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 4: an adult and she was thirteen, I'm like even more

557
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 4: horrified by it.

558
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 3: And that's like a production issue too, It's like that's

559
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 3: on the production to make sure that that doesn't happen.

560
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's you know, awful, but that happens. And

561
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 4: then there's a scene where Lily and August tend to

562
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 4: the bees, but they're not flying around their highs like usual.

563
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 4: They're inside the hive and August says, yeah, bees have

564
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 4: a secret life that we don't know anything about, and

565
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 4: we're like, that's basically the name.

566
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 3: Of the movie.

567
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 4: Then there's a scene where there's like a water hose

568
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 4: fight and June kind of like finally loosens up and

569
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 4: plays with them, but then she breaks down crying because

570
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 4: she and Neil recently broke up because because.

571
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 3: He calls here a bitch.

572
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like she's like, I don't want to be married

573
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 4: and he's like, well, you're a selfish bitch. Then and

574
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 4: he leaves, so a horrible character.

575
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 3: And then you're like, surely we won't be seeing him again.

576
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 4: Well JK.

577
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

578
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 4: Then one night Lily asks May if she knew a

579
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 4: woman named Deborah Owens. This is Lily's mother, although Lily

580
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 4: doesn't mention this, but she sees May luring cockroaches with

581
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 4: Graham crackers and marshmallows the same way that t Ray

582
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 4: had described Lily's mother as doing. So she makes this

583
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 4: connection and May says, yes, I knew Deborah. She stayed

584
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 4: in the Honeyhouse many years ago, and she was the

585
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 4: sweetest person. The memory of Deborah makes May tear up,

586
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 4: and she leaves. But now Lily has confirmation that her

587
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 4: mother stayed in this house. So the next day, Zach

588
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 4: invites Lily to go into town with him, and while

589
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 4: they're hanging out, Lily relays this information of yeah, my

590
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 4: mom stayed here, but I didn't tell anyone because I

591
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 4: was afraid the truth would wreck everything. And he's like,

592
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 4: you know, empathetic towards that, And then they go to

593
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 4: the movies together in a segregated theater, but Lily and

594
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 4: Zach sit together which.

595
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 5: In the colored section, not the white section.

596
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 4: Right, yes, and these racist men come in and abduct Zach.

597
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 4: So Neil and this other man who's like a family

598
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 4: friend go out looking for Zach. August and June decide

599
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 4: not to tell May that Zach is missing because they

600
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 4: think it'll be too much for May to handle emotionally,

601
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 4: but May finds out anyway. It does gravely affect her,

602
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 4: especially because they all know that when a black person

603
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 4: is taken like this, they often never come back. May

604
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 4: go out to her wall spends several hours there. Then

605
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 4: they can't find her, so August, June, Lily, and Rosaline

606
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:12,479
Speaker 4: go looking, and they discover May's body in a stream,

607
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 4: after having died by suicide, and everyone is devastated. Sometime later,

608
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 4: against all odds, Neil and that family friend find Zach

609
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 4: and they bring him back, and so there's a tearful reunion.

610
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 4: Neil and June seem to rekindle their relationship in that moment,

611
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 4: and you're like, no, Jim, get away from him. You're

612
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 4: so close. Then August finds May's suicide note, which says

613
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 4: that it's her time to go, but it's the rest

614
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 4: of the family's time to live, so don't mess it up.

615
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 4: And it's such a heart wrenching moment in the movie.

616
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 4: They hold a funeral from May, and then Lily shows

617
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 4: a picture of her mother to August and August is like, yeah,

618
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 4: I knew her and I figured out that you're her daughter,

619
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 4: and Lily breaks down crying. She feels that she's to

620
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 4: blame for what happened to Zach and May, that she's

621
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 4: to blame for her mother's death, saying that she's unlovable,

622
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 4: and August tells Lily that she's not unlovable. There's love

623
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 4: all around her. And then August reveals that she used

624
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 4: to be Lily's mom's nanny when Deborah was a child,

625
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 4: and that August knew Deborah most of her life. And

626
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 4: she describes Deborah and Tray's relationship early on that he

627
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 4: wasn't abusive at first, but Deborah fell out of love

628
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 4: with him after a while, married him anyway because she

629
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 4: was pregnant with Lily, and then Deborah left him after

630
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 4: a few years and came to stay with August in

631
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 4: the honeyhouse, and Lily's like, and she brought me with

632
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 4: her right and August as no, sorry, she came by herself.

633
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 4: So it seems like what t Ray had said about

634
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 4: her mom leaving Lily might be true, which of course

635
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 4: upsets Lily, and she goes to the honeyhouse and smashes

636
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:14,240
Speaker 4: a bunch of jars of honey.

637
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 3: I really, I mean, I want to talk about it

638
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 3: more fully. I really appreciated parts of this scene, especially

639
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 3: with I don't know. I was trying to put myself

640
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 3: in august shoes of like what would I tell a kid?

641
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 3: And I found her like honesty very touching, even though

642
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 3: it was painful, where it was like, I really appreciate

643
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 3: about her character that she doesn't you know, like she's gentle,

644
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 3: but she doesn't sugarcoat stuff, and she treats Lily like

645
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,439
Speaker 3: an adult in that moment, which you know isn't always

646
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 3: the right call, but it's I just I don't know.

647
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 3: I was really surprised at that choice, and I really

648
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 3: liked it because I feel like when you're that often

649
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 3: adults will just you know, bullshit, yachd because I think

650
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 3: you can't handle something. And even though it's painful, I

651
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 3: was like, Wow, that was like a really powerful and

652
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 3: risky thing.

653
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 4: That was really cool for sure. So later Lily and

654
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 4: Zach have a conversation he says how angry he is

655
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 4: about what happened to him, and Lily is basically like, well,

656
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 4: just make sure your anger doesn't become you know, like

657
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,320
Speaker 4: hatefulness and violent, and then they talk about their future

658
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 4: plans again they kiss. As we alluded to, there's kind

659
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 4: of some more moments of like tying up of loose ends,

660
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 4: where Rosaline says that she successfully registered to vote. June

661
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,280
Speaker 4: is like, hey, Neil, if you ask me to marry

662
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 4: you again, I'll say yes. They get engaged. You're like

663
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 4: that no, and then there's a knock on the door

664
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 4: and it's Lily's dad, t Ray. He had figured out

665
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 4: where she was. He demands that Lily come back home

666
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 4: with him. He's being very aggressive and violent.

667
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 5: Whereas she's being like, oh, won't you come in to

668
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 5: have a seat if you want to like ooh like

669
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 5: the need to be polite.

670
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 4: Like them, Yeah, right, Well, because she doesn't know how

671
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 4: he's gonna behave, and it turns out he blake. He

672
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:28,280
Speaker 4: behaves horribly.

673
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 3: He's still a bad guy.

674
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:33,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's still horrible. Lily refuses to go with him,

675
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 4: and August is like, yeah, I know, Lily has a

676
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 4: home here as long as she wants, so, you know,

677
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 4: t Ray realizes he has lost this battle and he

678
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 4: goes to leave, but before he does, Lily asks him

679
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 4: if it's true that when her mother came back, like

680
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,879
Speaker 4: back home to Tray's house, if she was only coming

681
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 4: back for her things like he said, or if it

682
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:03,240
Speaker 4: was something else, And he's like, no, she was coming

683
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 4: back for you, Lily. He drives off out of her

684
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 4: life forever, and Lily embraces her found family slash found

685
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 4: Mothers of August, June, and Rosaline. She writes about this

686
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 4: experience and puts the notebook that she wrote it in

687
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 4: on May's wall, and that's how the movie ends. So

688
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 4: let's take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss.

689
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 3: And we're back, and we're back.

690
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,879
Speaker 5: So in the books ending, yes, it's August, Rosaline and

691
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 5: the daughters of Mary crowding around t Ray going like,

692
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 5: you're not gonna take this girl with you. And I

693
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 5: assume that because like there's not as much character development

694
00:38:58,360 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 5: in the film, and like you can only do so

695
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 5: much in a films. It's the it's the three main moms,

696
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 5: and I'm and I'm okay with that. But what she

697
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 5: asks Tray before he leaves, because some somewhere along in

698
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 5: the book this whole thing she's not only is she

699
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 5: trying to figure out like whether or not her mom

700
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 5: came back for her, she's also trying to figure out

701
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 5: did I really kill my mom? Because all I remember

702
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 5: is the gun going off. So she asked t Ray,

703
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 5: did I really kill my mom? And he's like, I

704
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 5: know you don't want to hear this. I know you'd

705
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 5: want it to be her who did it to herself,

706
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 5: or me who did it, But it was you and

707
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 5: it wasn't your fault. And then he takes off.

708
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, which again is like another I don't know, just

709
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 3: like a very unsugarcoated truth for Lily.

710
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, the movie's ending feels much more like hollywoodified.

711
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:53,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's really interesting. I mean, yeah, it does

712
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 3: feel like a very I mean in a lot of ways.

713
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 3: I think all the way from like the Nate Parker

714
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 3: character back and they're going to get married, and that is,

715
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 3: you know, a Hollywood signifier of a happy ending. And

716
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 3: the mean guy goes away, but not before she knows

717
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 3: that she I guess there's so many places to start.

718
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 3: I was kind of I don't know, I was thinking about,

719
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 3: this movie is a lot about mothers and mothering, et cetera,

720
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 3: and I feel like a lot of like there are

721
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:28,240
Speaker 3: missed opportunities in there. But I guess the hollywoody ending.

722
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 3: Not that I wanted Willy to be abandoned by her mother,

723
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,439
Speaker 3: but I thought it was getting like in that scene

724
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 3: where we're just talking about with Lily and August, like,

725
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 3: I thought it was getting at something that we don't

726
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 3: see in movies very often, which is that like mothers

727
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 3: are not inherently, you know, naturally gifted, amazing perfect parents.

728
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 3: And because the movie goes out of its way to

729
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 3: make it clear that Deborah had a lot of struggles

730
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 3: with mental health, she was abused, yeah, and you know,

731
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 3: was like set up to not really be able to

732
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 3: be a good parent to Lily. But I feel like

733
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 3: we so often see characters that you know, in spite

734
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 3: of whatever they're going through, being a mother is a

735
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 3: quality that will transcend any struggle you've had, and that

736
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 3: is like so often not true. And I not that

737
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:24,240
Speaker 3: it's a great thing, but I always think it's interesting

738
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 3: when imperfect mothers are shown in movies. But it felt

739
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 3: like the ending kind of undercut that was like, no,

740
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 3: she actually was a perfect mother. I don't know. I

741
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 3: don't know. I just thought that they're you know, I

742
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 3: feel like I sound mean for being like I wish

743
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:39,879
Speaker 3: Lily was abandoned, but I feel like we don't hear

744
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:41,240
Speaker 3: stuff like that very often.

745
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, and like, and August does tell Lily about how,

746
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 5: like depress people often do things that they may not

747
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 5: comprehend at times, they may because they may not feel

748
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 5: like themselves. And they talk about this briefly about May

749
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 5: about how like, oh, a lot of doctors just told

750
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 5: us to institutionalize her, so we made the whaling wall

751
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 5: instead so we don't have to put her away. In

752
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 5: the book, they talk about that for May, and they

753
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 5: talk about that for for Deborah too, out how they're yeah,

754
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 5: so yeah, this's for for white women and black women

755
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 5: who are like I'm struggling. It's like, just we'll put

756
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 5: you away for a minute to calm down.

757
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 3: God, I'm curious in general. Yeah, because you've written about

758
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 3: mental health and depression so extensively, Maya, how do you

759
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 3: feel like this this movie does with those topics?

760
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, I because like I talked about this

761
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 5: in the Beyond the Lights episode about how how I

762
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,399
Speaker 5: wish Gina Prince Backwood had more space to do more

763
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 5: about mental health in her and her film work, because

764
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 5: that is a topic that she's so interested in. And

765
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 5: when it came to filming May's suicide scene, in the commentary,

766
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,959
Speaker 5: they said they only did it and in one take

767
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 5: because some of it had to do with like all

768
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 5: of the actresses being in the water longer than they

769
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 5: were supposed to, as well as Dakota Fannings hours like

770
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 5: she can only be kept until like nine pm. And

771
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 5: at the same time, it's like, I'm grateful that that

772
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 5: scene was only done in one take because of like

773
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 5: the actor's mental health and that, and that the scene

774
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 5: turned out well. And this was also before a time

775
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 5: because now we see movies whenever there's content about suicide

776
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 5: at the end credits, there's all like, if you're if

777
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 5: you're ever, if you have a loved one is struggling

778
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 5: with suicidality, call this number, And no one thought to

779
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 5: do that at the time, in like two thousand and seven,

780
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 5: two thousand and eight. So I just I just think

781
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,799
Speaker 5: a lot about how for its time, it was so

782
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 5: meaningful to see, uh, to see a black family struggle

783
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 5: with suicidal loss and to struggle with it during a

784
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 5: time such as the Civil rights era even And there's

785
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 5: this scene where May has more time the wall to cry,

786
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:03,399
Speaker 5: and I like that scene, and I like the Gina

787
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 5: Prince Bythewood really wanted that scene. And at the same time,

788
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 5: we don't spend enough time with may or May and

789
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 5: Rosaline's friendship either, and that makes me upset. I wanted

790
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 5: more time with that. There's so much there to talk about,

791
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 5: and there's so much there to talk about when it

792
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 5: comes to religiosity and mental health too. In the book,

793
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 5: they also talk about how how not only there's the

794
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 5: Whaling Wall, there's also there was one time she was

795
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 5: watching the news to the point where she was like

796
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 5: hitting herself in the face, and they decide to carry

797
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 5: her and put her in a bathtub, and they're like,

798
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 5: just watch the troubles away. And it's like they're using

799
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 5: the tools they have at that time. And I have

800
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 5: a lot of respect for that. I love that the

801
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 5: Whaling Wall is so public in their backyard. I love

802
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 5: that people can see it, and I love the visibility

803
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 5: of it, the visibility of that sadness, while also at

804
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 5: the same time I have so many questions about what

805
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 5: my therapist once called spiritual passing, where you're like, well,

806
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 5: everything's fine because God has me. Everything's fine because I'm

807
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 5: writing to God now and that's okay, rather than actually

808
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 5: sitting with the sadness. So I do have so many

809
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 5: follow up questions about whether or not that was a

810
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 5: discussion able to be had at the time or and

811
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 5: also to be fair when talking about this on the

812
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 5: Black Girl Film Club, like it could be that like

813
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 5: maybe maybe that was the best way for May so

814
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 5: that she could spend time on her own. Maybe that

815
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 5: was the best way, like because maybe she's not a talker,

816
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 5: Maybe maybe she does need to cry and just write

817
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,720
Speaker 5: it out. So yeah, I get how when I was younger,

818
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 5: how this movie was a comfort movie for me, while

819
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 5: also at the same time, as I get older, just

820
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 5: continuing to have questions about the tools that we have

821
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 5: to take care of ourselves versus how to use them

822
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 5: or do we need to come up with more tools

823
00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 5: and things of that nature, and how and how much

824
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:05,720
Speaker 5: lateiency can we give for the time putting the phrase

825
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 5: the time in air quotes. People can't see me, they

826
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 5: can hear me.

827
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,240
Speaker 4: No, but one thing that really struck me was how

828
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 4: supportive her sisters were and how they gave her space

829
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 4: to emote and grieve and do anything else she needed

830
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 4: to do with her emotions. And there were never any

831
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,760
Speaker 4: moments of judgment or as it's May being May again,

832
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 4: you know, and.

833
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 5: She still chose to leave, and she still chose to

834
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 5: take her life. Yeah, even with all that support, Yeah

835
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 5: for sure.

836
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 4: But it was like really heartening, I think to see

837
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 4: an example on screen of family members supporting another family

838
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 4: member who you know is prone to depression and you know,

839
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 4: a very empathic person who feels so deeply and for

840
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 4: them to be supportive and patient and all that, Yeah,

841
00:46:58,360 --> 00:46:59,839
Speaker 4: I was really nice to see.

842
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 3: I mean, and particularly and this isn't like harp done

843
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 3: or should it have been, but just how you know,

844
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 3: you think about like in the mid century, how horrifically

845
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 3: both black patients and women were treated in institutions where

846
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 3: it's just like it's a it's very very clear that

847
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 3: given the options at the time, this is by far

848
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 3: in May's best interest, in the family's best interests, and

849
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 3: that that is never you know, called into question, because

850
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,280
Speaker 3: I feel like sometimes there is the like, well would

851
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 3: she be quote unquote better off. And it just like

852
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 3: always irritates me when talking points like that come up.

853
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 3: But it's just very matter of fact. It is very

854
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 3: clear that this is the right environment or you know,

855
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 3: the best environment available. I love May Yeah, and I also,

856
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that this ties to a larger

857
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 3: point that we've already referenced. But I also is bummed

858
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 3: to not see her and Rosalie's friendship develop more because

859
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 3: I was bummed that we didn't see more Rosaline, Like

860
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 3: it's so frustrating. I mean, the thing that, in really

861
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 3: any context, not that I'm like more character should interact

862
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,479
Speaker 3: with Lily, but even Roselyne isn't interacting with Lily as much.

863
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 3: By the end of the movie, Like I feel like

864
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 3: she kind of gets it's we are told but not

865
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 3: shown that she is now a part of the boat

866
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 3: right sisters family unit, but I don't. Yeah, and I'm

867
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:28,399
Speaker 3: glad that happens, But again, yeah, I feel like we're

868
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 3: told that more than we see that grow. There's a

869
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 3: part of me that's like, why doesn't Rosaline get to

870
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 3: learn how to do be keeping, you know, just in

871
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 3: the way that we can like kind of write Lily

872
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 3: out of this story. Yeah, Like I think the story

873
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,839
Speaker 3: favors Lily so much that Roselyne kind of gets lost

874
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 3: in the shuffle, which is a shame because like I

875
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 3: actually do I think in a lot of movies that

876
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:55,959
Speaker 3: take place in this era where it's like the little

877
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 3: white girl needs to learn about racism.

878
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 5: And it doesn't help that like sum sumanc kid like

879
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 5: has said that wrote that some of Rosaline's mannerisms is

880
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 5: inspired by her own nanny that she grew up with.

881
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:13,359
Speaker 3: Oh wow, Yeah, it's just really bizarre to me. Yeah,

882
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 3: because it's like I understand at the beginning of the

883
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 3: movie what Rosaline and how Rosaline and Lily, you know,

884
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 3: rely on each other to some extent. Lily needs an

885
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 3: adult in her life who cares what happens to her,

886
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 3: and I mean Rosaline it seems like also needs someone

887
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 3: in her working environment who is kind to her. Like

888
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 3: I understand their bond, but it seems like as the

889
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 3: movie goes on, Rosaline's connection to anybody just feels more tenuous.

890
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 3: And then she shows up to be like this is

891
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 3: a great situation for me, and like I believe you,

892
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 3: but I haven't, Like I don't get all iver really

893
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 3: is you really only see her kind of cooking.

894
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, Rosaline's arc is going from certainly working for,

895
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,959
Speaker 4: if not living with, this white family. I don't would

896
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 4: It's not even clear if she lives there or not.

897
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 5: In the books she does not.

898
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 4: Okay, we don't even know in the movie. The movie

899
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 4: doesn't really care enough about her character exactly. But either way,

900
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 4: she spends a lot of time at this Owens household

901
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 4: taking care of Lily, so much of her life is

902
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 4: tending to white people, and she goes from that situation

903
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:28,399
Speaker 4: to now living among other black women and that very

904
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 4: drastic change in dynamic. That's a far more interesting story

905
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 4: to me, exactly.

906
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:37,800
Speaker 3: It just seems like two different stories. Yeah, yeah, I

907
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 3: mean I think Lily's story is interesting. I just don't

908
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,360
Speaker 3: think it belongs in this movie. It just feels like

909
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:44,320
Speaker 3: a different movie.

910
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, So yeah, I definitely clocked Rosaline's narrative importance

911
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 4: diminishing as the story goes on.

912
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 3: Which happens to Jennifer Hudson. That's the story of Jennifer

913
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 3: Hudson's life, And because she's also in the Sex and

914
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 3: the City movie, she's like the most poorly written characters

915
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 3: of all time. And you're just like, she just won

916
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 3: an oscar for fuck's sake.

917
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,800
Speaker 4: Anyways, exactly, Yeah, that's nuts.

918
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,959
Speaker 5: In the commentary, she talks about how uh what side

919
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 5: by she I mean, Gina Prince Bythewood. She she talks

920
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 5: about how she's like so at first we see Rosaline

921
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,839
Speaker 5: like very very nervous around t Ray and like not

922
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 5: as outspoken, and then like she becomes more outspoken by

923
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 5: the end, like especially when she says, well, I guess

924
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 5: I'm back now at Tray and I'm like, no, give

925
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 5: us more, right, more, I want more. I want more

926
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 5: scenes like when she was telling Lily off in the forest, right,

927
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:38,399
Speaker 5: like that's that's that's what I want more.

928
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 3: She had a strong establ I mean, and it's horrific

929
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:46,800
Speaker 3: seeing the racist abuse of that character endoors of course,

930
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:48,320
Speaker 3: and also there I don't know if either of you

931
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,919
Speaker 3: saw that. There there's a weird anecdote production anecdote about

932
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 3: Gina Prince Bythewood like basic like had.

933
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 5: Oh the method acting bullshit, that's.

934
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 3: Right, they met that. Yeah, they had a bunch of

935
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:07,240
Speaker 3: white actors harassed Jennifer Hudson in like a convenience store

936
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,799
Speaker 3: and call her the N word and like all of

937
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 3: this like pretty nasty stuff, and but genafrinces Bythewood sort

938
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:16,760
Speaker 3: of was like, well, she had just won an Oscar,

939
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 3: so she had to understand what it was like to

940
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,279
Speaker 3: feel not respected. And I was like that kind of

941
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 3: I don't Yeah, that's she's a great actor. You don't

942
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 3: need to like yeah exactly.

943
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 5: She said that in the commentary too, and she and

944
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 5: also in the fight scene, Jennifer Hudson is doing her

945
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:38,320
Speaker 5: own stunts and like, actually does get punched in the face.

946
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 5: And I don't like that. I don't find that impressive.

947
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:44,800
Speaker 5: I don't like, no, found that so impressive.

948
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 3: And I'm like, no, I know, I want to chuck

949
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 3: it up. I want to share that. Yeah, because I

950
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 3: have that quote here and I had to read it

951
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 3: twice and be like what this is from? And I'll

952
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,240
Speaker 3: be quoting from it for other reasons. But an interview

953
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 3: that Gena Prince Bythewood did with Essence at the time

954
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 3: this came out, she said, we had very little rehearsal time,

955
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:05,880
Speaker 3: and Jennifer was coming off the whole Oscar experience and

956
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:07,879
Speaker 3: was in a whole other world so she could get

957
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 3: in Risally's head. I set up an improvisation and hired

958
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 3: some white actors to be in a drug store and

959
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 3: told her in Dakota to meet me there. I told

960
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 3: them it was an improvisation, but I didn't know Jennifer

961
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:19,719
Speaker 3: thought it was real. My only direction to her was

962
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 3: to not hit anybody. The shopkeeper followed her around and

963
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 3: accused her of stealing. When Jennifer would ask for help,

964
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 3: another one would turned around in answer to Dakota. The

965
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:29,720
Speaker 3: third guy used the N word, and I saw Jennifer's

966
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 3: had whip over to him, and I got scared for

967
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 3: a second. She said all she remembered was to not

968
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 3: hit anybuddy. When I talked to them afterward about what

969
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 3: they got out of it, Jennifer said the hardest thing

970
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 3: was feeling invisible. It was great bonding for Fanning in

971
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 3: Hudson and I was just like, no, that's like, that's

972
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 3: deeply fucked up to Jennifer Hudson. And I also think

973
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 3: it's pretty weird to do to a child actor too.

974
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, she Dakota. Fanning is actually kneeling in real

975
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 5: grits in the film.

976
00:53:56,440 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 4: Oh, which yeah, seems very painful. Yeah, so okay, weird

977
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 4: choices directorially.

978
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, and Gina Prince Bythewood was was all like, oh,

979
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:10,120
Speaker 5: I need to I need to kneel in the grit

980
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 5: so that I know, like if I if I can

981
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 5: handle it, Shirley Dakota can handle it.

982
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 3: But Gina, you're an adult, like right. Anyways, the production

983
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 3: around this movie, I mean, do you mind if I

984
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 3: take a quick side quest. So something I thought was

985
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 3: interesting was this movie, It May Not Chalk You was

986
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 3: originally going to be.

987
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:34,800
Speaker 6: Directed by a white director date white man, Yes, David

988
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 6: Gordon Green, which also is like, I can't imagine a

989
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:42,279
Speaker 6: weirder like Dan and McBride's best friend. Do we really

990
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:44,800
Speaker 6: think he's the best suited for this? Like I like

991
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 6: his work, but like.

992
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 3: What the why would you do that? Anyways, Gina Prince Bythewood,

993
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 3: this is her first movie after Love and Basketball, but

994
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 3: it came out eight years later, And I feel like

995
00:54:55,520 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 3: this so often happened to directors of color, to women directors,

996
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 3: and specifically this is like reeks of kind of misogynore

997
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 3: in terms of getting a good second project. What I

998
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 3: think is interesting is I believe she originally turned this

999
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 3: down because she's pretty picky with the project she wants

1000
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:17,239
Speaker 3: to do as is her right. She had taken some

1001
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:20,839
Speaker 3: time off to have her kids. But what she'd been

1002
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:24,319
Speaker 3: working on for five or so years that never ended

1003
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 3: up happening was an adaptation of this really long book

1004
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:33,320
Speaker 3: about mental health and about bipolar specifically. Let me find

1005
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 3: the title of I Know This Much Is True by

1006
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:39,800
Speaker 3: Wally Lamb. I'm not familiar with it. I don't know

1007
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 3: if you are. The description is it's a nine hundred

1008
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 3: page epic tale about an unhappy house painter and his

1009
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 3: institutionalized identical twin brother, a paranoid, schizophrenic and like Gina

1010
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,399
Speaker 3: Prince Bythewood, I guess she grew up. I know, we've

1011
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 3: talked about her extensively on this show, but she was

1012
00:55:56,719 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 3: adopted and grew up in a white family and had

1013
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:02,799
Speaker 3: a bipolar brother. So this book really resonated with her.

1014
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 3: She wanted to make it, she wrote to the author,

1015
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:10,360
Speaker 3: she got permission, It took years, but then when it

1016
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 3: finally came to Fox. This is from a DGA article

1017
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:18,720
Speaker 3: from like fifteen years ago. When the brass at Fox

1018
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 3: two thousand demanded an A list actor to play the

1019
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 3: dual role. The projects fell apart because none of the

1020
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 3: movie stars approach would say yes to working with a

1021
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 3: relatively new director, which feels very telling to me, And

1022
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 3: the fact that so it seems like, you know, even

1023
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:37,799
Speaker 3: though she speaks highly of this film, it just anecdotally

1024
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 3: doesn't seem like this was her first choice for her

1025
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:44,440
Speaker 3: second film, and that this movie was made for a

1026
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:46,759
Speaker 3: smaller budget than Love in Basketball. It was made for

1027
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,320
Speaker 3: eleven million dollars and every actor had to take a

1028
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 3: pretty major pay cut to be a part of it,

1029
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:56,320
Speaker 3: which I feel like is so often true in movies

1030
00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 3: that spotlight black women specifically. I mean, I think we

1031
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:03,840
Speaker 3: most recently talked about this in relation to the Color

1032
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 3: Purple musical film of like how These there was a

1033
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:12,719
Speaker 3: huge salary issue with how undervalued the black actresses were,

1034
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 3: But in any case, it just felt, I don't know,

1035
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 3: I felt frustrated for even though I have notes for

1036
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 3: Gina Princepipot on this movie, I was frustrated for her that, Like,

1037
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 3: I mean, I think if you put a white male

1038
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 3: director in her shoes, they have no problem getting first

1039
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 3: of all, their second movie, but also their second movie

1040
00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 3: on source material of their choosing exactly, And I you know,

1041
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 3: I wish she had gotten to make the movie that

1042
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 3: she wanted to make because after love and basketball, she

1043
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 3: should have been able to do fucking anything, and the

1044
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:49,440
Speaker 3: fact that she wasn't is just very you know, state of.

1045
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:55,280
Speaker 4: The industry for sure. I and we've alluded to the

1046
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 4: overall narrative, and we're like, why is it about this

1047
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:01,479
Speaker 4: white girl, or if it is, if it's a movie

1048
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 4: about a young white girl and her you know, journey

1049
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 4: figuring out what did happen with her mom, and you

1050
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:15,479
Speaker 4: know that narrative, why is it nestled into this other

1051
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 4: story about these black women that movie right, rite that too,

1052
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 4: So that is an issue in and of itself. I

1053
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 4: do think that this movie does handle some things well

1054
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:36,440
Speaker 4: as far as identifying the varying degrees of micro and

1055
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 4: macroaggressions directed toward black people and the different ways that

1056
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 4: racial prejudice can manifest, because we see many examples of that.

1057
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 4: And I did appreciate at least that this movie does

1058
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 4: portray a white protagonist that like is a participant in

1059
00:58:56,560 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 4: the racial prejudice and that like it gives her room

1060
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 4: to grow. I think a white director would have been

1061
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 4: inclined to be like, oh, well, sure there's racism, but

1062
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 4: my protagonist who is a white child who grew up

1063
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 4: in the Jim Crow South. She has no racial what

1064
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 4: the hell. She understands everything about white supremacy and how

1065
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 4: it oppresses and marginalizes black people because like white fragility

1066
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 4: makes it so that white people have a very hard

1067
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 4: time acknowledging their participation and complicity in white supremacy. So

1068
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 4: this movie being directed by a black woman, she's able

1069
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:42,400
Speaker 4: to very easily identify those things, and it does make

1070
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 4: for I think a better and more authentic movie than

1071
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 4: it would have been if it had been directed by,

1072
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 4: for example, David Gordon Green. So those are some things

1073
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:57,240
Speaker 4: that I think are handled better.

1074
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 5: Sure, Like even in the Tiny Thing to like they're

1075
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 5: all referred to as as miss, whereas in the book

1076
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 5: they're not. So that's it's it's a tiny thing, but

1077
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 5: it still makes a huge impact. But also at the

1078
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 5: same time, like Lily doesn't call Rosaline miss until after

1079
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 5: she says like she's a registered voter, which I take

1080
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 5: issue with.

1081
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 3: What it's true, Yeah, And I mean I don't know.

1082
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 3: I mean, one one movie can't take on everything. But

1083
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 3: it's again, it's like, I feel like we got some

1084
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 3: strong stuff towards the beginning of the movie that kind

1085
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:41,959
Speaker 3: of goes away where you know, again from Rosaline who's

1086
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 3: kind of bailed on, it felt a little like okay,

1087
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:48,120
Speaker 3: that like her happy ending is like I'm going to

1088
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:53,440
Speaker 3: vote for Lyndon Johnson and you're like, like, okay, better

1089
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 3: than the alternative.

1090
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:55,440
Speaker 5: But like.

1091
01:00:57,040 --> 01:00:59,960
Speaker 3: It just felt a little like, you know, YadA YadA,

1092
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 3: we're at the beginning, we're getting more complex stuff from her,

1093
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:07,280
Speaker 3: where you know, it felt more grounded in like, you know,

1094
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:10,720
Speaker 3: I would never buy that Dakota Fanning's character didn't have

1095
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:13,800
Speaker 3: a lot of internalized racism based on her upbringing, but

1096
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:16,480
Speaker 3: I did buy that she wouldn't understand that the civil

1097
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 3: rights bill being passed doesn't mean everything is better overnight.

1098
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 3: And I liked that moment with Rosaline where she's like, yeah,

1099
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 3: technically maybe, but it's a piece of paper and like,

1100
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 3: I don't know, like it felt like we were being

1101
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 3: set up for more complex conversations that ended up happening.

1102
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 4: Sometimes. There's another one that worked for me, where it's

1103
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 4: this scene where Rosaline is attacked by the white men

1104
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 4: and they're demanding that she apologize and Lily is begging

1105
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 4: for her to comply with this request and to apologize,

1106
01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:56,920
Speaker 4: and Rosaline refuses, and then she is arrested, and then

1107
01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:01,200
Speaker 4: a little later, Lily says something like, well, yeah, you

1108
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:04,280
Speaker 4: were foolish for, you know, pouring your tobacco spit on

1109
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 4: that white man, and even more foolish for not apologizing

1110
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:12,200
Speaker 4: if apologizing would have saved your life, And Rosaline's response is,

1111
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:16,479
Speaker 4: I know you don't understand this, but apologizing to those

1112
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:18,840
Speaker 4: men would have just been a different way of dying,

1113
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:22,160
Speaker 4: except I would have to live with it. But then,

1114
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 4: like after that, any of those more nuanced conversations like

1115
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 4: kind of don't happen at least between at least with Rosaline,

1116
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:37,440
Speaker 4: because she just sort of disappears mostly from the movie.

1117
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:41,760
Speaker 3: One thing I appreciated that I think, just again we

1118
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:45,960
Speaker 3: are we don't often see represented in movies is a

1119
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:51,360
Speaker 3: black family that is like a middle class, upper middle class.

1120
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 3: I mean, their house fucking rocks. I don't know what

1121
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 3: that white class that is in nineteen sixty whatever, But.

1122
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:02,200
Speaker 5: The book they explained that they're dad was a dentist.

1123
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:05,640
Speaker 3: Okay, but yeah, I mean I think that that you know,

1124
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:09,880
Speaker 3: to this day is still a fairly underrepresented class. And

1125
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:12,320
Speaker 3: so it is. It was it was nice to see.

1126
01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:17,560
Speaker 4: Another example of like Lily's racial prejudice is she's like, wow,

1127
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:21,960
Speaker 4: I've never seen black people who are so cultured and right, I.

1128
01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:25,040
Speaker 3: Know, like Rosaline, mean, while Rosaline sitting right there, I

1129
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:27,280
Speaker 3: would have been like like.

1130
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:32,320
Speaker 4: But then but then Rosaline is like, actually, neither have I.

1131
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 5: And yeah, there's even a part where Rosaline's all like,

1132
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 5: I ain't never I have never heard of it. And

1133
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 5: I'm like, you didn't have to change anything, you don't

1134
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 5: change anything. But at the same time, I feel like

1135
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:46,840
Speaker 5: that comes from comes from the book. Like I feel

1136
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:50,680
Speaker 5: like like we just see a lot of Lily's internalized

1137
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 5: thoughts about Rosalne in a way that just that just

1138
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:58,000
Speaker 5: makes me mad. Like she like wrote, Rosaline just does

1139
01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:00,960
Speaker 5: not give a crap, and that's seen a lot more

1140
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:03,720
Speaker 5: in the book. And Lily's all like, oh my god, Rosaline,

1141
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 5: I wish you'd care more. I wish you'd like not

1142
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 5: like do that in front of the boat, right sisters

1143
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 5: or whatever. And she's internalizing all of this, and I

1144
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 5: think some of that carried into like how to portray

1145
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:16,120
Speaker 5: her in the movie, and I wish that didn't happen.

1146
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:21,280
Speaker 3: Interesting, gosh, it's Rosaline was done dirty Jennifer Hudson in

1147
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:24,520
Speaker 3: two thousand and eight, Like, it just was not fair,

1148
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:29,720
Speaker 3: not a fair time to our friend Jennifer Hudson and

1149
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:31,760
Speaker 3: the fact that she'd have to wait until it's twenty

1150
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:34,720
Speaker 3: nineteen to play her greatest role in Cats. You mean

1151
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:36,240
Speaker 3: of Grizabella the glamour Cat.

1152
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:37,440
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, of course.

1153
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:40,120
Speaker 5: Wait when did when did Aretha come out?

1154
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:41,160
Speaker 4: Oh?

1155
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:44,520
Speaker 3: Aretha? I think Aretha came out afterwards. But I was

1156
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:46,480
Speaker 3: also just being an asshole. Cats as hard.

1157
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:51,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, we imagine if we were like Jennifer Hudson's

1158
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:56,360
Speaker 4: greatest performance in the greatest movie of all time Cats,

1159
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:00,040
Speaker 4: although she she is the best, I mean she she

1160
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:02,200
Speaker 4: has a great performance. You think she's in a way

1161
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:04,440
Speaker 4: better movie than she's actually in, which is like, how

1162
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:05,160
Speaker 4: was she to know?

1163
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:08,120
Speaker 3: But yeah, she's They didn't know that, they weren't gonna

1164
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:14,080
Speaker 3: edit out her human body, like couldn't have known?

1165
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:19,720
Speaker 4: Yeah. Can we talk about June and her relationship with Neil?

1166
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I hate it.

1167
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:27,800
Speaker 4: I hate it. It's him constantly asking her to marry him.

1168
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 4: She says, no, I don't want to be married now

1169
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:36,560
Speaker 4: or ever. Like you mentioned, Maya, the movie deletes the

1170
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:41,000
Speaker 4: context for why. But even if honestly I appreciated that

1171
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:43,600
Speaker 4: there was no context, Like I didn't mind that that

1172
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 4: context wasn't there, because people are allowed to not want

1173
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:50,200
Speaker 4: to get married and to not have true, you know,

1174
01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:54,360
Speaker 4: any traumatic backstory that informs that they can just say,

1175
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:56,400
Speaker 4: like I don't want to get married. So I actually

1176
01:05:56,440 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 4: was like, hell, yeah, June, you don't want to get married.

1177
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:02,800
Speaker 4: And she doesn't have to give a reason, and a

1178
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:05,040
Speaker 4: lot of people around her are like, you're so scared.

1179
01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:06,680
Speaker 4: What are you so scared of? And she's like, I'm

1180
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:09,160
Speaker 4: not scared. I just don't want to get married. But

1181
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:12,840
Speaker 4: Neil keeps like pestering her. He then calls her a

1182
01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:15,640
Speaker 4: selfish bitch, and then they break up about it and.

1183
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:16,920
Speaker 3: He never apologizes.

1184
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 5: He never apologizes, And Gina Prince Bythewood had talked about

1185
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:24,400
Speaker 5: like while directing Alicia. She said something along the lines

1186
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:27,880
Speaker 5: of like, oh, it's so oh, it's amazing. How how

1187
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:30,040
Speaker 5: even though she's very firm and talking about how she's

1188
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:32,640
Speaker 5: not scared of anything, you can see the fear in

1189
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:33,560
Speaker 5: her eyes.

1190
01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:36,760
Speaker 3: And like, and this is the couple we're rooting for.

1191
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:38,400
Speaker 4: Are you to disagree?

1192
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:40,760
Speaker 5: Because like a lot of that just come from and again,

1193
01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:42,160
Speaker 5: I know I talked about this in the Beyond the

1194
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:44,840
Speaker 5: Lights episode, like it just goes back to like Gena

1195
01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:48,280
Speaker 5: Prince Bythewood's view of romantic relationships in a way where

1196
01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:52,920
Speaker 5: I'm like, yeah, ah, buddy, And like there's a scene

1197
01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:58,320
Speaker 5: where where Lily sees June and Neil kissing, and I

1198
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 5: bring this up because this is connected back to Lily

1199
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:07,840
Speaker 5: and Zach's kiss scene and how Gina Prince Bithwood said

1200
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 5: in the commentary, she was like, it was nice to

1201
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:13,400
Speaker 5: portray this form, this form of this form of innocence.

1202
01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 5: It was nice to do this at the at the

1203
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 5: Wailing Wall because of because after Lily and May's scene

1204
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:22,800
Speaker 5: where they talk about kissing that's not in the book

1205
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:26,480
Speaker 5: but was an addition added to the story, and then

1206
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 5: talked about like oh, she she caresses Zach's face, similar

1207
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:35,200
Speaker 5: to how June caress is Neil's face, and it's like it's.

1208
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:38,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, don't don't talk about my friend Zach like that,

1209
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:43,880
Speaker 3: like that's Zach. Is seems like a really nice, a

1210
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:45,000
Speaker 3: nice kiss.

1211
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:49,560
Speaker 5: And I also just I'm getting very bored with like

1212
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:53,000
Speaker 5: people asking actors what was it like kissing your co

1213
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 5: star because like there's a commentary with Queen Latifa and

1214
01:07:56,160 --> 01:07:59,760
Speaker 5: Dakota fanning the producers and Gina, and both Queen Latifa

1215
01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 5: and Gina asked Dakota, what's going through your mind? And like,

1216
01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:05,800
Speaker 5: to paraphrase what Dakota said, she was just like had

1217
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:06,640
Speaker 5: a job to do.

1218
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 3: Child, he should be illegal, Like I I also, yeah,

1219
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:14,960
Speaker 3: I always think that, especially when you ask a child

1220
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:18,040
Speaker 3: like that, it is like the creepiest thing one could

1221
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:21,360
Speaker 3: do in that situation, especially like, hey, that.

1222
01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:26,479
Speaker 4: Right, especially when and I only just learned this about

1223
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:31,240
Speaker 4: an hour ago, that she was kissing. You said he

1224
01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:34,960
Speaker 4: was eighteen going on nineteen the actor, yep, and she's

1225
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:39,160
Speaker 4: thirteen certain going on fourteen. Yeah, let's not do that.

1226
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 4: Don't cast an actor who is that much older if

1227
01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:47,479
Speaker 4: you do insist on having an on screen kiss like that.

1228
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:53,240
Speaker 4: But also like is it necessary she's a choy, Like right,

1229
01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:53,880
Speaker 4: let's not.

1230
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:56,799
Speaker 3: There can be yeah, like there you can get across

1231
01:08:56,880 --> 01:09:02,720
Speaker 3: their bond without doing that. Like, yeah, this was a bummer.

1232
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:04,880
Speaker 4: To go back to June and Neil real quick to

1233
01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:08,360
Speaker 4: just like close the loop on that. So he calls

1234
01:09:08,360 --> 01:09:11,720
Speaker 4: herselfish bitch. They break up. She changes her mind for

1235
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:15,280
Speaker 4: reasons that are not clear. You could maybe say that

1236
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:18,280
Speaker 4: maybe it had something to do with what May had

1237
01:09:18,320 --> 01:09:20,880
Speaker 4: said in her suicide note, where she's like, you know,

1238
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:23,880
Speaker 4: it's it's my time to go, but your time to live,

1239
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:26,719
Speaker 4: implying that the only way to live as a woman

1240
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 4: is to get heterosexually married to a man.

1241
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:31,880
Speaker 3: A person doesn't like it.

1242
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:35,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, And granted August does say like, oh, there was

1243
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:37,280
Speaker 5: a time I was in love and like I loved

1244
01:09:37,320 --> 01:09:39,240
Speaker 5: him enough to marry him, but I loved my freedom

1245
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:42,040
Speaker 5: more so I like, so I appreciate that contrast, and

1246
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:44,160
Speaker 5: at the same time, it again, it just doesn't help,

1247
01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:46,160
Speaker 5: like like this idea of like.

1248
01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:50,040
Speaker 1: Come on, June, Mary Neil, marry yeah, like let him

1249
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:53,080
Speaker 1: wear you down so much that, for reasons that aren't clear,

1250
01:09:53,160 --> 01:09:55,840
Speaker 1: you change your mind even though you were so like

1251
01:09:56,040 --> 01:10:01,200
Speaker 1: headstrong about not getting married prior to this, and it.

1252
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:05,120
Speaker 3: That really has struck me of like why is August

1253
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:08,599
Speaker 3: able to have that grace? But I feel like June

1254
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:13,720
Speaker 3: is like often presented as like being cold and like

1255
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:16,080
Speaker 3: mean for not wanting to get married, and August is

1256
01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:19,760
Speaker 3: not portrayed that way, even though their reasoning sounds basically identical.

1257
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:22,639
Speaker 3: So I just thought that was like bizarre mud.

1258
01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:27,240
Speaker 4: And then, as we've alluded to, and we talk more

1259
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:29,479
Speaker 4: about this on the Beyond the Lights episode, I don't

1260
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:31,880
Speaker 4: think it's we don't need to like rehash it in

1261
01:10:31,920 --> 01:10:35,080
Speaker 4: a lot of detail. But and will place another trigger

1262
01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:39,799
Speaker 4: warning here for rape and sexual assault. But Nate Parker

1263
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 4: is a rapist. He raped a woman in the late

1264
01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:47,160
Speaker 4: nineties while he was in college. He denied it, charges

1265
01:10:47,200 --> 01:10:49,240
Speaker 4: were eventually dropped. He was able to go on to

1266
01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:54,320
Speaker 4: have a an acting career, and for some reason he

1267
01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:59,840
Speaker 4: gets cast in movies despite this being pretty easily accessible knowledge.

1268
01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:02,960
Speaker 3: So who can say why? Who can say why these

1269
01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:03,439
Speaker 3: things have.

1270
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:05,840
Speaker 4: Who does it have something to do with? I don't

1271
01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:14,439
Speaker 4: know the patriarchy anyway, you whispering patriarchy if we if

1272
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:16,519
Speaker 4: if we whisper it, it'll go away.

1273
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:23,000
Speaker 5: Welcome, welcomed to my smar gonna talk about the patriarchy.

1274
01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:26,880
Speaker 3: Caitlin, is the patriarchy in the room with us right now?

1275
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:28,920
Speaker 4: It's behind me, isn't it.

1276
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:35,280
Speaker 3: Yes? So yeah, yeah, it's every male character except I

1277
01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:39,680
Speaker 3: mean it's it's so because I in my notes, I

1278
01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:41,200
Speaker 3: was like, at least we have Zach. But then the

1279
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:44,719
Speaker 3: casting age disparity is like, well kind of we don't

1280
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:48,240
Speaker 3: I like the character, Uh yeah, really really good character.

1281
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:54,000
Speaker 5: Zach's mom was Lafonda in Napoleon Dynamite.

1282
01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:59,920
Speaker 3: And whah my god, that's but I want to be

1283
01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:00,599
Speaker 3: I share.

1284
01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:01,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you.

1285
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:06,280
Speaker 3: I have not thought about Napoleon Dynamite in so long.

1286
01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:08,200
Speaker 4: I feel like it's another movie we need to cover.

1287
01:12:08,560 --> 01:12:10,720
Speaker 3: I know, but I'm almost afraid to. I was like,

1288
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:11,479
Speaker 3: what there?

1289
01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:14,920
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, could.

1290
01:12:14,760 --> 01:12:16,679
Speaker 3: It possibly have aged? Well? I don't.

1291
01:12:17,360 --> 01:12:18,360
Speaker 5: I just don't think.

1292
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:19,760
Speaker 4: Only one way to find out.

1293
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:23,280
Speaker 3: I used to have a vote Pedro shirt and an

1294
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:28,760
Speaker 3: I Love Lamp shirt. I mean, yeah, I was. I

1295
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:34,320
Speaker 3: don't want to talk about it. Yeah yeah, but yeah.

1296
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:38,879
Speaker 4: I mean Zach as a character is a character I enjoyed.

1297
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:42,680
Speaker 4: And you know, the interactions between him and Lily or

1298
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:48,719
Speaker 4: another example of her like harboring these racial prejudices, because

1299
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:51,559
Speaker 4: there's that scene where they're talking about their future hopes

1300
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:54,720
Speaker 4: and dreams and she's like, oh, yeah, are you going

1301
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:57,040
Speaker 4: to be a professional football player? And he's like, why

1302
01:12:57,120 --> 01:12:59,519
Speaker 4: do white people always think that the only way black

1303
01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:03,680
Speaker 4: people can be successful is to play sports? And he

1304
01:13:03,720 --> 01:13:06,519
Speaker 4: says he wants to be a lawyer, and she's like, oh, really,

1305
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:09,040
Speaker 4: I've never heard of a black lawyer before. And then

1306
01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:13,240
Speaker 4: he's like Thurgood Marshall hello, and she's like, yeah, I

1307
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:17,720
Speaker 4: don't know him, and it's just another way of like

1308
01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:22,080
Speaker 4: her being isolated and not knowing about the world.

1309
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:24,519
Speaker 3: I'd say, see, I kind of had a different read

1310
01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:29,599
Speaker 3: of that scene where where I do like appreciate that

1311
01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:32,439
Speaker 3: you know she again, it's like she's not made out

1312
01:13:32,479 --> 01:13:36,160
Speaker 3: to be immune to racism, because that would make no

1313
01:13:36,240 --> 01:13:40,400
Speaker 3: sense given her lived experience. It just feels like sometimes

1314
01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:44,400
Speaker 3: in like this subgenre of movies that like Zach was

1315
01:13:44,439 --> 01:13:47,679
Speaker 3: there in that moment to teach her about racism, I mean,

1316
01:13:47,960 --> 01:13:50,640
Speaker 3: versus to have it be more of like a character development.

1317
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:52,760
Speaker 3: And I feel like that is like so common to

1318
01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:57,840
Speaker 3: movies that managed to center a young white person. Is

1319
01:13:57,880 --> 01:14:02,800
Speaker 3: that like a lot of the black characters like struggles, ambitions,

1320
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:06,560
Speaker 3: whatever it may be, is like they're there to characterize,

1321
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:10,439
Speaker 3: but they're also there to be like, guess what you naive,

1322
01:14:10,920 --> 01:14:14,240
Speaker 3: Dakota Fanning, they're good. Marshall exists.

1323
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:19,080
Speaker 5: Another thing I'll point out, the boat right sisters are

1324
01:14:19,240 --> 01:14:23,839
Speaker 5: older in the book then than who is casted to

1325
01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:28,439
Speaker 5: portray them. In the film, and granted they sort of

1326
01:14:28,600 --> 01:14:31,519
Speaker 5: kind of age Queen Latifah up, but not by much.

1327
01:14:32,520 --> 01:14:36,000
Speaker 5: So I just find that fascinating around how much of

1328
01:14:36,040 --> 01:14:40,559
Speaker 5: it had to do with having to sell a movie

1329
01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:44,040
Speaker 5: and having like Will Smith and Jada Pinkett Smith be

1330
01:14:44,040 --> 01:14:46,840
Speaker 5: be producers on it and like and stuff like that

1331
01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:50,360
Speaker 5: or Yeah, but I'm also aware that like Gina Prince

1332
01:14:50,360 --> 01:14:53,639
Speaker 5: Bythwood and Alicia Keys are our friends, so that's sort

1333
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:56,680
Speaker 5: of connected to like, Alicia Keys is casting in the

1334
01:14:57,080 --> 01:14:57,479
Speaker 5: in the.

1335
01:14:57,360 --> 01:15:00,040
Speaker 3: Film, but she's really good in it. I really I

1336
01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:01,720
Speaker 3: liked her performance.

1337
01:15:01,360 --> 01:15:06,439
Speaker 4: Absolutely, But another examples fantastic of you know, Hollywood favoring

1338
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:14,519
Speaker 4: younger women. Yeah, what else we got? Fulk I mean,

1339
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:23,080
Speaker 4: as you mentioned Maya, the book draws a clearer metaphorical

1340
01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:28,280
Speaker 4: parallel between the lives of bees and what the women

1341
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:32,000
Speaker 4: in the story you're experiencing. But the movie is just like,

1342
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:36,760
Speaker 4: here are the logistics about how bee keeping works, and

1343
01:15:36,800 --> 01:15:40,040
Speaker 4: it's far less like thematic and metaphorical.

1344
01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:42,599
Speaker 3: The only moment where it really comes back is when

1345
01:15:42,680 --> 01:15:47,759
Speaker 3: may is sort of foreshadowing her own death by talking

1346
01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:52,320
Speaker 3: about worker bees. Where that was like the only moment

1347
01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:55,599
Speaker 3: where it felt like making an explicit connection to this

1348
01:15:55,720 --> 01:16:00,840
Speaker 3: community of women, to the beemmunity.

1349
01:16:01,080 --> 01:16:03,479
Speaker 5: It's one of the few epigraphs from the book that's

1350
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:04,120
Speaker 5: that's said.

1351
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:08,000
Speaker 7: In the movie Oh no kidding, Okay, Yeah, And also

1352
01:16:08,880 --> 01:16:13,240
Speaker 7: going into MHM is now where I do the big

1353
01:16:13,439 --> 01:16:14,519
Speaker 7: religion deep.

1354
01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:20,960
Speaker 5: Dive play, Okay, because the because again the the bees

1355
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:25,360
Speaker 5: are connected to the religious landscape as well. So so Sue,

1356
01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:28,879
Speaker 5: my kid had been spending a lot of time writing

1357
01:16:29,120 --> 01:16:31,920
Speaker 5: non fiction before she wrote fictional books. And she has

1358
01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:38,520
Speaker 5: written a lot about progressive, progressive spirituality, the divine feminine.

1359
01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:41,519
Speaker 5: I will unpack that and like in a minute, because

1360
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:44,040
Speaker 5: I have mixed feelings about that. But but yeah, this

1361
01:16:44,120 --> 01:16:47,559
Speaker 5: is her first fictional book. And she has been doing

1362
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:51,160
Speaker 5: this project for years of like looking up different artistic

1363
01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:54,439
Speaker 5: sculpt sculptures of like different Madonnas of different racial identities

1364
01:16:54,479 --> 01:16:57,519
Speaker 5: and different cultural backgrounds. And she and then she did

1365
01:16:57,640 --> 01:17:01,040
Speaker 5: find a piece from a ship that was supposed to

1366
01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:06,200
Speaker 5: embody the Virgin Mary and which letter to write this

1367
01:17:06,280 --> 01:17:09,880
Speaker 5: book and letter to like think about her own time

1368
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:12,320
Speaker 5: during the Civil rights movement at the age of fourteen,

1369
01:17:12,920 --> 01:17:16,400
Speaker 5: and also what I like about the Secret Life of

1370
01:17:16,560 --> 01:17:18,680
Speaker 5: be is it It's one of the few film representations

1371
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:23,519
Speaker 5: I've seen of black folks within within practicing Catholicism, because

1372
01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:28,680
Speaker 5: usually it's it's in Protestant Pentecostal churches or like or

1373
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:31,200
Speaker 5: if there is Catholicism represented, it's because they go to

1374
01:17:31,240 --> 01:17:34,479
Speaker 5: a Catholic school. It's not because they're necessarily Catholic or

1375
01:17:34,600 --> 01:17:38,800
Speaker 5: they're of of Afrolatin X descents as to why they're

1376
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:43,960
Speaker 5: practicing Catholicism, and with with this practice with the daughters

1377
01:17:43,960 --> 01:17:48,679
Speaker 5: of Mary, the ship head that they that they call

1378
01:17:48,960 --> 01:17:51,880
Speaker 5: Mary had been in the boat Right's family for quite

1379
01:17:51,880 --> 01:17:56,679
Speaker 5: some time, like the book describes their mom even talking

1380
01:17:56,760 --> 01:17:58,960
Speaker 5: to her going like going like, oh my goodness, you

1381
01:17:58,960 --> 01:18:00,800
Speaker 5: should have had a girl, have been a lot less

1382
01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:05,800
Speaker 5: trouble and stuff like that, and uh. And their so

1383
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:10,600
Speaker 5: their mom is Catholic and their dad is an Orthodox Eclectic,

1384
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:14,559
Speaker 5: which is a denomination that leans more specifically to Eastern

1385
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:18,840
Speaker 5: Christianity rather than Western Christianity. And also they even the

1386
01:18:18,840 --> 01:18:23,519
Speaker 5: book also talks about Rosaline's spiritual background too, like she

1387
01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:27,040
Speaker 5: she engages in an altar work that that lily is

1388
01:18:27,439 --> 01:18:30,360
Speaker 5: fascinated by Antiray is like, no, don't don't mess with

1389
01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:34,080
Speaker 5: that food, with that voodoo shit, which is very racist

1390
01:18:34,160 --> 01:18:38,240
Speaker 5: of him to say. And and at first Rosaline's not

1391
01:18:38,439 --> 01:18:41,080
Speaker 5: into the Daughters of Mary thing, but she eventually gets

1392
01:18:41,080 --> 01:18:42,479
Speaker 5: into it, even though she just most of the time

1393
01:18:42,600 --> 01:18:45,080
Speaker 5: just sits there. And I think she's only like touched

1394
01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:46,200
Speaker 5: the heart of.

1395
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:47,400
Speaker 4: Mary one time.

1396
01:18:49,320 --> 01:18:54,000
Speaker 5: And and they also talk about the connection with with

1397
01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:57,320
Speaker 5: bees as part of their religious tradition too, like they

1398
01:18:57,439 --> 01:19:01,320
Speaker 5: talk about like so this So the scene in the

1399
01:19:01,320 --> 01:19:07,160
Speaker 5: movie where August puts the black covers on the bee hives,

1400
01:19:07,479 --> 01:19:10,320
Speaker 5: that's the only thing from the book that they show.

1401
01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:12,400
Speaker 5: And apparently it wasn't written in the script, but Gina

1402
01:19:12,400 --> 01:19:14,920
Speaker 5: Prince Bithwood wanted a shot of that before they were

1403
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:18,840
Speaker 5: before they were done. I'm glad that shot exists. And

1404
01:19:19,200 --> 01:19:21,920
Speaker 5: so when it comes to death rituals, honey used to

1405
01:19:22,000 --> 01:19:26,360
Speaker 5: be used for embalming. They used to shape tombs in

1406
01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:30,679
Speaker 5: the shape of bee hives when when early Christians were

1407
01:19:31,000 --> 01:19:34,200
Speaker 5: hiding from from Romans. Not only was there like the

1408
01:19:34,240 --> 01:19:36,560
Speaker 5: fish symbol, there was also there were also bee symbols.

1409
01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:38,840
Speaker 4: Oh okay, And in.

1410
01:19:38,840 --> 01:19:41,840
Speaker 5: The book, August says covering the hives was supposed to.

1411
01:19:41,920 --> 01:19:44,720
Speaker 8: Keep the bees from leaving. You see, the last thing

1412
01:19:44,760 --> 01:19:47,160
Speaker 8: they wanted was their bees swarming off. When a death

1413
01:19:47,200 --> 01:19:50,439
Speaker 8: took place, having bees around was supposed to ensure that

1414
01:19:50,520 --> 01:19:54,800
Speaker 8: the dead person would live again. She also says, back

1415
01:19:54,840 --> 01:19:57,960
Speaker 8: when the Christians hid from the Romans down in the catacombs,

1416
01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:00,680
Speaker 8: they used to scratch pictures of bees the walls to

1417
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:03,920
Speaker 8: remind each other that when they died, they'd be resurrected.

1418
01:20:06,080 --> 01:20:09,160
Speaker 5: And she said, and she also says something about about

1419
01:20:09,200 --> 01:20:12,759
Speaker 5: how like this figure came from came from a ship,

1420
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:17,280
Speaker 5: and the people wanted to believe about the Virgin Mary's

1421
01:20:17,320 --> 01:20:22,679
Speaker 5: spirit within that, within that figure and see and see

1422
01:20:22,680 --> 01:20:26,479
Speaker 5: themselves in in that figure, because because she says something

1423
01:20:26,479 --> 01:20:30,600
Speaker 5: along the lines of how people deserve a God that looks.

1424
01:20:30,360 --> 01:20:35,320
Speaker 4: Like them, which gets referenced to some extent in the

1425
01:20:35,479 --> 01:20:40,080
Speaker 4: movie where the label of the honey jars has black

1426
01:20:40,160 --> 01:20:43,479
Speaker 4: Virgin Mary and baby Jesus. And there's a part where

1427
01:20:43,640 --> 01:20:48,840
Speaker 4: Lily is like, what's that about? And June says something like,

1428
01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:52,240
Speaker 4: you mean, like, why is Mary black? Or why is that?

1429
01:20:54,080 --> 01:20:58,280
Speaker 4: And that's that's what prompts the scene where August and

1430
01:20:58,680 --> 01:21:01,280
Speaker 4: the is it the daughters of Mary?

1431
01:21:01,760 --> 01:21:05,439
Speaker 5: The Daughters of Mary, it's the it's how they're described

1432
01:21:05,479 --> 01:21:07,760
Speaker 5: in the book I recognize that they don't say that

1433
01:21:07,840 --> 01:21:08,400
Speaker 5: in the movie.

1434
01:21:08,640 --> 01:21:09,559
Speaker 4: They probably do.

1435
01:21:09,680 --> 01:21:14,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, in the in The Daughters of Mary, sugar girl

1436
01:21:14,120 --> 01:21:17,400
Speaker 5: has a husband named Otis who's mostly quiet and just

1437
01:21:17,439 --> 01:21:17,920
Speaker 5: sits there.

1438
01:21:19,080 --> 01:21:20,720
Speaker 4: More men should be like this.

1439
01:21:22,080 --> 01:21:24,439
Speaker 5: It's easy to get rid of Otis in the movie.

1440
01:21:25,360 --> 01:21:29,719
Speaker 5: But yeah, when going into like the whole divine feminine

1441
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:33,600
Speaker 5: thing that sumanc Kid talks about, Like, like on one end,

1442
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:37,200
Speaker 5: I appreciate that the progressiveness of it because of how

1443
01:21:37,240 --> 01:21:42,360
Speaker 5: often women are under underrepresented in religious and spiritual conversations.

1444
01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:46,240
Speaker 5: But then at the same time it crosses into like

1445
01:21:46,840 --> 01:21:52,080
Speaker 5: turfy territory, trans exclusionary radical feminism type territory and doesn't

1446
01:21:52,120 --> 01:21:55,559
Speaker 5: make a lot of room for for religious or spiritual

1447
01:21:55,800 --> 01:21:59,200
Speaker 5: trans folks. I remember in the Color Purple episode, y'all

1448
01:21:59,240 --> 01:22:03,720
Speaker 5: talked about Alice Walker siding with JK. Rowling and like

1449
01:22:03,960 --> 01:22:07,439
Speaker 5: she's also she's also a spiritual writer, and like she

1450
01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:12,160
Speaker 5: she came out with an apology question mark, I don't

1451
01:22:12,200 --> 01:22:14,840
Speaker 5: know how I feel about it, And also like I'm

1452
01:22:14,880 --> 01:22:18,160
Speaker 5: too scared to look into like how sumanc kid feels

1453
01:22:18,200 --> 01:22:23,559
Speaker 5: about trans people. I'm too nervous. But yeah, but yeah,

1454
01:22:23,600 --> 01:22:29,720
Speaker 5: typically like whenever there are folks specifically women with some

1455
01:22:29,840 --> 01:22:33,000
Speaker 5: form of a Christian background, even as they tried to

1456
01:22:33,080 --> 01:22:37,600
Speaker 5: make it progressive or try to lean into womanhood of

1457
01:22:37,640 --> 01:22:40,800
Speaker 5: it by by calling things like the divine feminine. I

1458
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:43,600
Speaker 5: do get scared at times, where as far as like

1459
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:45,000
Speaker 5: like like I don't I don't want to take your

1460
01:22:45,040 --> 01:22:47,360
Speaker 5: journey away from you. And at the same time, if

1461
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:50,400
Speaker 5: you're if you're divine feminine doesn't include trans people, I

1462
01:22:50,400 --> 01:22:54,320
Speaker 5: don't know how I feel about that. So yeah, that's

1463
01:22:54,920 --> 01:22:58,000
Speaker 5: those Those are all my notes and feelings about the

1464
01:22:58,080 --> 01:23:01,680
Speaker 5: religious landscape of Yes, this movie, in the book that

1465
01:23:01,720 --> 01:23:02,479
Speaker 5: inspired it.

1466
01:23:02,560 --> 01:23:06,400
Speaker 4: That's very interesting, most if not all of that gets

1467
01:23:06,479 --> 01:23:09,200
Speaker 4: left out of the movie, Like all of that right

1468
01:23:09,400 --> 01:23:15,280
Speaker 4: kind of historical context and b significance isn't really in

1469
01:23:15,320 --> 01:23:18,880
Speaker 4: the movie. It's just Queen Latifa being like, yeah, and

1470
01:23:18,880 --> 01:23:21,880
Speaker 4: then we put smoke on the bees to masks they're

1471
01:23:21,920 --> 01:23:27,160
Speaker 4: pheromones and calm them down, which the movie gets wrong.

1472
01:23:27,880 --> 01:23:31,320
Speaker 3: They're like smoking the bees, they're killing us, and it's

1473
01:23:31,320 --> 01:23:33,479
Speaker 3: like all the bees have like emphysema, and you're like,

1474
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:35,880
Speaker 3: it's not it's just not.

1475
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:42,080
Speaker 4: In conclusion, being movie sucks. But yeah, there is there

1476
01:23:42,160 --> 01:23:43,920
Speaker 4: chemicals in this In the smoke.

1477
01:23:44,080 --> 01:23:46,040
Speaker 5: Is that the problem or is it just a matter?

1478
01:23:46,080 --> 01:23:46,960
Speaker 5: They're like, Oh, it's smoke.

1479
01:23:47,280 --> 01:23:50,800
Speaker 4: They're suggesting it's like tobacco smoke in B movie.

1480
01:23:50,880 --> 01:23:55,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're acting like it's cigarette smoke. It's so Terry

1481
01:23:55,360 --> 01:24:01,200
Speaker 3: Seinfeld IQ of zero, Like it's just yeah.

1482
01:24:01,280 --> 01:24:04,160
Speaker 5: The producer, one of the producers of this movie kept

1483
01:24:04,200 --> 01:24:07,439
Speaker 5: getting letters from people saying that they wanted Queen Latifah

1484
01:24:07,479 --> 01:24:08,559
Speaker 5: to adopt them.

1485
01:24:10,080 --> 01:24:11,240
Speaker 4: Seeing this movie.

1486
01:24:11,560 --> 01:24:13,360
Speaker 3: Who could relate? Who could relate?

1487
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:14,040
Speaker 1: You know?

1488
01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:17,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss

1489
01:24:18,080 --> 01:24:19,799
Speaker 4: about the Secret life of Bees?

1490
01:24:20,880 --> 01:24:25,120
Speaker 3: I think that's everything that I had it. I don't know. Ultimately,

1491
01:24:25,240 --> 01:24:28,519
Speaker 3: I'm like it was. It feels very much a product

1492
01:24:28,560 --> 01:24:29,160
Speaker 3: of its time.

1493
01:24:30,120 --> 01:24:33,559
Speaker 4: To me, you could parse out different parts of this

1494
01:24:33,840 --> 01:24:36,320
Speaker 4: story and isolate them and they should just kind of

1495
01:24:36,360 --> 01:24:41,240
Speaker 4: be their own thing. And the fact that they're overlapping

1496
01:24:41,400 --> 01:24:47,000
Speaker 4: just means that the narratives of the black women suffer

1497
01:24:47,080 --> 01:24:51,719
Speaker 4: for it. So yeah, uh, Well, the movie does pass

1498
01:24:51,880 --> 01:24:58,200
Speaker 4: the Bechtel test for sure for large swaths of the

1499
01:24:58,240 --> 01:25:04,479
Speaker 4: movie between many different characters, so no problems there. As

1500
01:25:04,520 --> 01:25:06,920
Speaker 4: far as our Nipple scale, though, where we rate the

1501
01:25:06,960 --> 01:25:11,200
Speaker 4: movie on a scale of zero to five nipples. Examining

1502
01:25:11,200 --> 01:25:19,320
Speaker 4: the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, Hmmm, I'm kind

1503
01:25:19,320 --> 01:25:21,559
Speaker 4: of leaning toward like a two and a half or

1504
01:25:21,720 --> 01:25:26,640
Speaker 4: three for the reasons that we've discussed throughout the episode

1505
01:25:27,000 --> 01:25:29,240
Speaker 4: and like what I was just talking about as far

1506
01:25:29,280 --> 01:25:33,760
Speaker 4: as like, yes, the black characters are important narratively, but

1507
01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:36,679
Speaker 4: at the end of the day, it's still very much

1508
01:25:36,720 --> 01:25:43,599
Speaker 4: a story about a white girl's journey with like black

1509
01:25:43,680 --> 01:25:49,080
Speaker 4: characters as the backdrop, almost and there's nothing inherently wrong

1510
01:25:49,160 --> 01:25:50,679
Speaker 4: with a story about a white girl.

1511
01:25:51,160 --> 01:25:53,240
Speaker 3: You know, loved the substance.

1512
01:25:56,160 --> 01:26:00,880
Speaker 4: Exactly, but yeah, it's it's a It's what we've already said.

1513
01:26:00,880 --> 01:26:03,640
Speaker 4: It's just like, let you know, these other characters have

1514
01:26:03,720 --> 01:26:08,080
Speaker 4: their own story. I'll give it three nipples, one to

1515
01:26:08,160 --> 01:26:16,600
Speaker 4: Queen Latifah, one to Jennifer Hudson, and one too Sophie

1516
01:26:16,840 --> 01:26:21,160
Speaker 4: Oknado nice the end, I'm gonna go three as well.

1517
01:26:21,320 --> 01:26:24,400
Speaker 3: I mean, I love Gena France Bythwad. This movie did

1518
01:26:24,439 --> 01:26:29,160
Speaker 3: not super work for me, but I think a lot

1519
01:26:29,160 --> 01:26:33,000
Speaker 3: of that is connected to the source material as well. However, Yeah,

1520
01:26:33,080 --> 01:26:36,519
Speaker 3: I mean, even just like some of the directing choices

1521
01:26:36,560 --> 01:26:40,479
Speaker 3: she made, putting Jennifer Hudson through that bizarre or a

1522
01:26:40,520 --> 01:26:44,840
Speaker 3: deal like without making sure that even if she did know,

1523
01:26:44,880 --> 01:26:46,960
Speaker 3: it was fake, Like, I just Jennifer Hudson should have

1524
01:26:46,960 --> 01:26:49,360
Speaker 3: had the opportunity to be like no, thanks, Like you

1525
01:26:49,400 --> 01:26:52,080
Speaker 3: don't need to teach me what racism is for sure.

1526
01:26:52,200 --> 01:26:54,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, just because I've won an oscar doesn't mean I'm

1527
01:26:54,760 --> 01:26:58,080
Speaker 4: immune from racism, Like what even?

1528
01:26:58,600 --> 01:27:00,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I also think that that's that's a really

1529
01:27:00,600 --> 01:27:03,280
Speaker 3: weird situation to put a kid in as well, Like

1530
01:27:03,800 --> 01:27:08,439
Speaker 3: it just yeah, like some of her her choices I

1531
01:27:08,479 --> 01:27:11,040
Speaker 3: have questions about. But I also feel like, as we've

1532
01:27:11,080 --> 01:27:14,040
Speaker 3: talked about with Gina Prince Bythewood before, that she has

1533
01:27:14,080 --> 01:27:17,920
Speaker 3: never gotten the opportunities that she's deserved, especially the earlier

1534
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:20,000
Speaker 3: in her career. You go, but we talked about this

1535
01:27:20,040 --> 01:27:23,200
Speaker 3: on the Woman King episode where it was just completely

1536
01:27:23,240 --> 01:27:27,320
Speaker 3: snubbed at the Oscars for her work, And so, you know,

1537
01:27:27,720 --> 01:27:29,519
Speaker 3: I think that while I don't agree with a lot

1538
01:27:29,520 --> 01:27:33,719
Speaker 3: of the choices she's making here, I also think she's

1539
01:27:33,760 --> 01:27:36,639
Speaker 3: put between a rock and a hard place constantly because

1540
01:27:36,640 --> 01:27:38,280
Speaker 3: she wasn't able to make the movie she wanted to,

1541
01:27:38,479 --> 01:27:43,960
Speaker 3: And that is also deeply unfair. Yeah, in terms of

1542
01:27:43,960 --> 01:27:47,160
Speaker 3: being a product of its time, a civil rights era

1543
01:27:47,400 --> 01:27:51,240
Speaker 3: story adapted from a work of a white writer that

1544
01:27:51,320 --> 01:27:55,920
Speaker 3: centers a white teenager, very popular thing to do in

1545
01:27:55,960 --> 01:28:00,040
Speaker 3: this stretch of five years. And while I think that

1546
01:28:00,080 --> 01:28:04,240
Speaker 3: Lily is a you know, fairly well written character all

1547
01:28:04,320 --> 01:28:07,880
Speaker 3: things considered, and it's not that I dislike her, again,

1548
01:28:07,920 --> 01:28:11,479
Speaker 3: it just feels like this, but but her being centered

1549
01:28:11,520 --> 01:28:16,280
Speaker 3: in the story means that the majority black cast becomes

1550
01:28:16,280 --> 01:28:20,080
Speaker 3: supporting characters, and that just doesn't feel right at all.

1551
01:28:20,520 --> 01:28:23,080
Speaker 3: So I'm going to give it three nipples. I'm going

1552
01:28:23,120 --> 01:28:27,240
Speaker 3: to give one to Jennifer Hudson, and I'm going to

1553
01:28:27,320 --> 01:28:30,200
Speaker 3: give one to Jennifer Hudson and dream Girls, and we

1554
01:28:30,320 --> 01:28:32,400
Speaker 3: to give one to Jennifer Hudson and Cats.

1555
01:28:32,920 --> 01:28:36,080
Speaker 4: Dream Girls another movie we have to cover. Wow, so

1556
01:28:36,200 --> 01:28:37,000
Speaker 4: much to do the.

1557
01:28:37,040 --> 01:28:39,720
Speaker 3: Last time, the last time I dream Girls. This is

1558
01:28:39,800 --> 01:28:45,080
Speaker 3: so loser coded. After my junior prom when you're supposed

1559
01:28:45,080 --> 01:28:47,639
Speaker 3: to like go out and like get drunk and kiss,

1560
01:28:47,760 --> 01:28:52,160
Speaker 3: they were like, hey, for any any loser kids, you

1561
01:28:52,160 --> 01:28:54,559
Speaker 3: can come back to the high school cafeteria and we're

1562
01:28:54,560 --> 01:28:59,120
Speaker 3: going to show dream Girls on DVD. And I've watched

1563
01:28:59,200 --> 01:29:01,680
Speaker 3: dream Girls and drank milk. I was like, it was

1564
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:05,599
Speaker 3: so fucking pathetic. Anyways, I liked the movie, but I

1565
01:29:05,680 --> 01:29:10,160
Speaker 3: just that movie I associate with being like a gigantic loser.

1566
01:29:13,160 --> 01:29:16,880
Speaker 4: Wow, I love that story. Thank you so much, Maya.

1567
01:29:17,000 --> 01:29:17,639
Speaker 4: What say you?

1568
01:29:21,240 --> 01:29:23,320
Speaker 3: Maya's still recovering from what a loser I was in

1569
01:29:23,400 --> 01:29:24,880
Speaker 3: high school. No.

1570
01:29:25,000 --> 01:29:28,360
Speaker 5: But but here's the thing though, when you cover dream

1571
01:29:28,360 --> 01:29:32,719
Speaker 5: Girls on this on this podcast, non loser status.

1572
01:29:32,479 --> 01:29:35,519
Speaker 3: Right, I mean step into the bad side. I step

1573
01:29:35,560 --> 01:29:37,680
Speaker 3: into the bad side is just like and I love

1574
01:29:37,720 --> 01:29:39,880
Speaker 3: that song so much. That was my favorite song at

1575
01:29:39,880 --> 01:29:45,000
Speaker 3: the time, dream Girls. Anyways, Anyways, I will.

1576
01:29:44,640 --> 01:29:49,439
Speaker 5: Give this movie three and a half nipples because I

1577
01:29:49,479 --> 01:29:53,439
Speaker 5: do love that May's portrayal in the movie is a

1578
01:29:53,479 --> 01:29:56,640
Speaker 5: lot better than the book. And again, a lot of

1579
01:29:56,640 --> 01:29:59,240
Speaker 5: it just has to do with like Lily's fourteen year

1580
01:29:59,280 --> 01:30:02,439
Speaker 5: old voice talking about things she doesn't understand and using

1581
01:30:02,479 --> 01:30:05,240
Speaker 5: ablest language about May in a way that I didn't like.

1582
01:30:05,360 --> 01:30:08,000
Speaker 5: So I love that there is. Even though more space

1583
01:30:08,080 --> 01:30:10,000
Speaker 5: could have been given to May, I do love that

1584
01:30:10,439 --> 01:30:13,439
Speaker 5: May does get some space and even some original content

1585
01:30:13,560 --> 01:30:16,160
Speaker 5: added to her character in the in the hair braiding

1586
01:30:16,200 --> 01:30:21,920
Speaker 5: scene with Lily and I, Oh my gosh, I June

1587
01:30:21,960 --> 01:30:25,559
Speaker 5: deserved so much better and some of the behind the

1588
01:30:25,560 --> 01:30:27,880
Speaker 5: scenes details they talk about, like we wanted to make

1589
01:30:27,960 --> 01:30:32,280
Speaker 5: June a more accessible character, and that made me mad,

1590
01:30:32,400 --> 01:30:34,760
Speaker 5: especially when it came to like how more context would

1591
01:30:34,760 --> 01:30:39,000
Speaker 5: have made her a more accessible character. And like another

1592
01:30:39,080 --> 01:30:43,839
Speaker 5: thing in the book, she plays music for for people

1593
01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:46,840
Speaker 5: for the dead, whether they're dying in hospice or like

1594
01:30:47,120 --> 01:30:52,479
Speaker 5: or like they're playing she's playing at funerals, and she

1595
01:30:52,560 --> 01:30:54,720
Speaker 5: used to work as a mortician, and like and not

1596
01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:58,000
Speaker 5: having a history about like having that history when it

1597
01:30:58,040 --> 01:31:01,200
Speaker 5: comes to like having a younger sister die by suicide

1598
01:31:01,200 --> 01:31:03,599
Speaker 5: and then in your adult life having a sister died

1599
01:31:03,640 --> 01:31:06,280
Speaker 5: by suicide is like would have been incredible context to

1600
01:31:06,400 --> 01:31:07,760
Speaker 5: give Are you kidding me?

1601
01:31:08,360 --> 01:31:11,479
Speaker 3: I sorry? I was like, I just realized my brain

1602
01:31:11,520 --> 01:31:13,040
Speaker 3: is soup because I was like, I was like, the

1603
01:31:13,080 --> 01:31:16,760
Speaker 3: Grateful Dead weren't were they performing? Then she worked with

1604
01:31:16,920 --> 01:31:20,519
Speaker 3: the dead, like as in the Bodies, not not the band.

1605
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:24,400
Speaker 4: I was like, do people refer to the Grateful Dead

1606
01:31:24,479 --> 01:31:25,320
Speaker 4: as the dead?

1607
01:31:25,880 --> 01:31:28,519
Speaker 3: Yes? I only know that because my brother is a

1608
01:31:28,600 --> 01:31:29,400
Speaker 3: huge dead head.

1609
01:31:29,800 --> 01:31:30,479
Speaker 4: He's a dead head.

1610
01:31:30,640 --> 01:31:34,400
Speaker 3: Oh he is. And I think I'm going to this

1611
01:31:34,479 --> 01:31:37,679
Speaker 3: is I think I'm going to a concert with him

1612
01:31:37,760 --> 01:31:38,720
Speaker 3: for his birthday.

1613
01:31:39,680 --> 01:31:40,599
Speaker 4: A Dead concert.

1614
01:31:41,120 --> 01:31:44,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're supposed to be twelve hundred hours long. I

1615
01:31:44,640 --> 01:31:49,040
Speaker 3: can't wait, can't wait. Oh my gosh. Wow, Well, I'm

1616
01:31:49,080 --> 01:31:51,200
Speaker 3: sure my brother would be proud of me. I was like, whoa,

1617
01:31:51,280 --> 01:31:53,479
Speaker 3: the Grateful Dead should have been in that movie. That's wild.

1618
01:31:53,960 --> 01:31:59,920
Speaker 5: Anyways, all the performances are fantastic. It makes me so

1619
01:32:00,360 --> 01:32:04,400
Speaker 5: uncomfortable watching watching some of the special features continent of

1620
01:32:04,439 --> 01:32:08,160
Speaker 5: like Paul Bettany and Nate Parker being like the the

1621
01:32:08,400 --> 01:32:12,960
Speaker 5: nice guys and like when like, clearly they're not so nice,

1622
01:32:13,040 --> 01:32:16,400
Speaker 5: and it makes me uncomfortable. There are many things I

1623
01:32:16,439 --> 01:32:18,919
Speaker 5: love about this movie. There are many things I continue

1624
01:32:18,920 --> 01:32:21,439
Speaker 5: to interrogate about this movie. So I'm gonna give it

1625
01:32:21,479 --> 01:32:24,759
Speaker 5: three three and a half. And I often I notice

1626
01:32:24,840 --> 01:32:27,920
Speaker 5: I've been noticing this. I tend to make people share

1627
01:32:28,360 --> 01:32:30,599
Speaker 5: a nipple and then the event for the half one

1628
01:32:30,640 --> 01:32:35,519
Speaker 5: one person gets okay. So I'm gonna give one nipple

1629
01:32:36,080 --> 01:32:39,920
Speaker 5: for Queen Latifa and Alicia Keys to share one nipple

1630
01:32:40,280 --> 01:32:45,080
Speaker 5: to be shared between Jennifer Hudson and Sofio Canido. I'll

1631
01:32:45,120 --> 01:32:49,920
Speaker 5: give a nipple for Oh my gosh, I'm blinking. I'm

1632
01:32:49,920 --> 01:32:55,040
Speaker 5: blinking on the actual actress's name, Oh, the one in

1633
01:32:55,240 --> 01:33:01,559
Speaker 5: Zachary's mom Laonda from Napoleon Time. Oh yes, I know,

1634
01:33:02,040 --> 01:33:04,080
Speaker 5: I'm going to look up her name. I need to,

1635
01:33:04,400 --> 01:33:05,439
Speaker 5: I need to get this right.

1636
01:33:05,640 --> 01:33:07,760
Speaker 4: Her name is Chandrella Avery.

1637
01:33:07,880 --> 01:33:10,760
Speaker 5: Thank you. I'm gonna give a nipple to Chandre Chandrella

1638
01:33:10,880 --> 01:33:16,160
Speaker 5: Avery and Sandra Hernandez, the costume designer. Oh, I love

1639
01:33:16,280 --> 01:33:20,839
Speaker 5: all of the boat Right's sister's dresses, especially that purple

1640
01:33:21,120 --> 01:33:25,280
Speaker 5: dress that August wears when talking one on one to

1641
01:33:25,360 --> 01:33:29,800
Speaker 5: Lily with like her Debor's Box of Things. And then

1642
01:33:29,880 --> 01:33:34,360
Speaker 5: the final half nibble to India Ari for her song

1643
01:33:34,479 --> 01:33:36,240
Speaker 5: beautiful in the movie.

1644
01:33:37,400 --> 01:33:40,160
Speaker 3: Lofe Maya. Thank you so much for coming back.

1645
01:33:40,360 --> 01:33:42,439
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me back. We still

1646
01:33:42,479 --> 01:33:44,479
Speaker 5: need to do something on Dear Evan Hansoon.

1647
01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:45,960
Speaker 3: I know y'all are.

1648
01:33:45,880 --> 01:33:48,479
Speaker 5: Like, oh no, but I'm over here like, oh yeah.

1649
01:33:48,840 --> 01:33:52,679
Speaker 4: It's time, it will happen. I still have never seen

1650
01:33:52,680 --> 01:33:55,240
Speaker 4: that movie. I don't know what it is.

1651
01:33:55,680 --> 01:33:57,680
Speaker 3: So Caitlyn, I think you'll think it's I mean, it

1652
01:33:57,720 --> 01:33:58,559
Speaker 3: is kind of funny.

1653
01:33:58,880 --> 01:33:59,240
Speaker 4: Okay.

1654
01:34:00,200 --> 01:34:02,679
Speaker 3: Ultimately that of a comic guy who's.

1655
01:34:02,479 --> 01:34:06,160
Speaker 4: In it would later go on to be in does

1656
01:34:06,200 --> 01:34:10,920
Speaker 4: that movie called Band Camp Theater camph Theater Camp Theater Camp,

1657
01:34:11,320 --> 01:34:12,479
Speaker 4: which I enjoyed very much.

1658
01:34:12,560 --> 01:34:13,720
Speaker 5: So it's a fun mover.

1659
01:34:14,320 --> 01:34:16,160
Speaker 4: Yes, Maya, thank you so much for joining us. Come

1660
01:34:16,160 --> 01:34:19,560
Speaker 4: back anytime. Thank you for Dear Evan Hanson.

1661
01:34:20,800 --> 01:34:23,920
Speaker 5: Or any other movie or listen, listen, I'm I'm willing

1662
01:34:24,040 --> 01:34:28,120
Speaker 5: to wait for Dear Evan Hanson if need be, we'll no,

1663
01:34:28,240 --> 01:34:31,320
Speaker 5: it's it's always an honor talking about films with y'all.

1664
01:34:31,360 --> 01:34:34,120
Speaker 5: So thank you very much for letting me come back.

1665
01:34:34,479 --> 01:34:36,120
Speaker 3: Course, thank you so much for coming back.

1666
01:34:36,280 --> 01:34:40,280
Speaker 4: Where can people check out your work? Follow you on

1667
01:34:40,320 --> 01:34:42,759
Speaker 4: social media? Plug anything you'd like to plug?

1668
01:34:43,080 --> 01:34:50,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, I am on Instagram, Blue Sky and Twitter at

1669
01:34:50,280 --> 01:34:54,040
Speaker 5: e M M dubb one sixteen, so M doub sixteen.

1670
01:34:54,520 --> 01:34:58,800
Speaker 5: I have a website Maya williamspoet dot com. M A

1671
01:34:59,000 --> 01:35:01,800
Speaker 5: y A Williams Poe dot com. You can buy either

1672
01:35:01,800 --> 01:35:05,559
Speaker 5: one of my poetry collections from that website, or you

1673
01:35:05,600 --> 01:35:09,360
Speaker 5: could read any of my other published work, whether it's

1674
01:35:09,360 --> 01:35:14,240
Speaker 5: poetry or essays or stuff like that. So yeah, I

1675
01:35:14,560 --> 01:35:17,600
Speaker 5: have a chatbook out now called What's So Wrong with

1676
01:35:17,600 --> 01:35:22,680
Speaker 5: a Pity Party Anyway? Via a garden party collective, my

1677
01:35:22,920 --> 01:35:25,240
Speaker 5: best friend came out with a book called The Space

1678
01:35:25,320 --> 01:35:30,559
Speaker 5: Between Men, Yes, through Penguin Random House. Miaus Willis wrote

1679
01:35:30,560 --> 01:35:34,679
Speaker 5: The Space Between Men would highly recommend this beautiful poetry collection,

1680
01:35:34,960 --> 01:35:41,519
Speaker 5: which also touches on suicidality, gender, spirituality, mythos for folks

1681
01:35:41,560 --> 01:35:42,439
Speaker 5: who are interested in that.

1682
01:35:43,120 --> 01:35:43,599
Speaker 3: Amazing.

1683
01:35:43,640 --> 01:35:45,160
Speaker 4: We'll have to check that out.

1684
01:35:45,200 --> 01:35:46,800
Speaker 5: Oh I forgot one more thing. I'm so sorry, I

1685
01:35:46,800 --> 01:35:47,400
Speaker 5: forgot one more thing.

1686
01:35:47,400 --> 01:35:47,960
Speaker 4: Oh please.

1687
01:35:48,479 --> 01:35:51,960
Speaker 5: I am open for poetry commissions if you are looking

1688
01:35:51,960 --> 01:35:54,479
Speaker 5: for a poem for an upcoming event or for a

1689
01:35:54,479 --> 01:35:58,920
Speaker 5: loved one. I also audio record poems for performances such

1690
01:35:58,920 --> 01:36:02,760
Speaker 5: as drag performances, less performances, theater performances. So if you

1691
01:36:02,800 --> 01:36:05,200
Speaker 5: were interested in that, you can email me at Maya

1692
01:36:05,240 --> 01:36:08,120
Speaker 5: Williams one six at gmail dot com or use the

1693
01:36:08,120 --> 01:36:09,559
Speaker 5: context form and my website.

1694
01:36:09,560 --> 01:36:11,400
Speaker 4: Thank you, Oh my gosh, that's so I love that

1695
01:36:11,439 --> 01:36:16,040
Speaker 4: you do all of those performances. You can follow us

1696
01:36:16,160 --> 01:36:22,320
Speaker 4: on Instagram at Bechdel Cast. You can subscribe to our Matreon,

1697
01:36:23,040 --> 01:36:27,720
Speaker 4: where we cover two movies a month based on an

1698
01:36:27,760 --> 01:36:31,439
Speaker 4: amazing theme, such as Insecttober, which we just finished up

1699
01:36:31,920 --> 01:36:35,679
Speaker 4: in which we covered b movie, which, as we've said,

1700
01:36:35,760 --> 01:36:37,200
Speaker 4: absolutely sucks.

1701
01:36:37,240 --> 01:36:41,160
Speaker 3: Not enough bees. Well go over to Yeah you need.

1702
01:36:41,000 --> 01:36:46,160
Speaker 4: More bas movie content, Well, we've got lots for you.

1703
01:36:46,320 --> 01:36:49,639
Speaker 3: Hell, you can get our merchover at teapublic dot com

1704
01:36:49,680 --> 01:36:55,400
Speaker 3: slash the Bechdel Cast and uh, until then, folks, let's

1705
01:36:55,400 --> 01:37:04,560
Speaker 3: go harvest some honey. Tell me bye, okay, bye bye.

1706
01:37:04,640 --> 01:37:07,920
Speaker 4: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by

1707
01:37:08,000 --> 01:37:11,880
Speaker 4: Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited

1708
01:37:12,000 --> 01:37:14,920
Speaker 4: by mo La Boord. Our theme song was composed by

1709
01:37:14,960 --> 01:37:19,240
Speaker 4: Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskressensky. Our logo and

1710
01:37:19,360 --> 01:37:22,679
Speaker 4: merch is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks

1711
01:37:22,680 --> 01:37:26,880
Speaker 4: to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please

1712
01:37:26,960 --> 01:37:29,240
Speaker 4: visit linktree slash Bechdel Cast