1 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: Take a deep breath in through your nose. Holds it now, 2 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: release slowly again deep in halle hold release, repeating internally 3 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: to yourself as you connect to my voice. I am deeply, 4 00:00:54,760 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: deeply well. I am deeply, deeply well. I am deeply wow. 5 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: I'm Debbie Brown and this is the Deeply Well Podcast. 6 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place to land on 7 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 1: your journey. A podcast for those that are curious, creative, 8 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: and ready to expand in higher consciousness and self care. 9 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: This is where we heal, this is where we become. 10 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. Thank you for being here. I'm 11 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: your host, of course, Debbie Brown. And today we are 12 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: diving into a conversation that I feel so many people 13 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: are really ready to have and so many more deeply 14 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: need to hear. Works exploring the path to healing from 15 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: religious trauma, reclaiming our agency, and expanding how we think 16 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 1: about identity, relationships and mental health. Joining us today is 17 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: a very special guest, and Russo and Russo, LCSWMA and 18 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: Theology is a mental health advocate, a therapist and thought 19 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: leader specializing in healing religious trauma, sexual empowerment, ethical non monogamy, 20 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: queer identity, and inclusivity in mental health. With over two 21 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: decades of experience, she combines professional expertise and lived experience 22 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: to inspire transformation and foster meaningful conversations about often stigmatized topics. 23 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: Anne is currently writing her first book, under contract with Pessi, 24 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: which introduces the Religious Trauma Treatment Model RTTM. She is 25 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: also the founder and clinical direct of AMR Therapy, a 26 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: boutique mental health practice serving clients with a focus on 27 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: culturally competent, accessible care for marginalized communities. Whoof, thank you, 28 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: welcome to this show, and. 29 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you Devy. I'm so happy to be here today. 30 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: What a special work, what a powerful work, what a 31 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: hard work. 32 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 2: And I can't imagine doing anything else. 33 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, my god, you know the first 34 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: question that comes to mind. And actually I'll share kind 35 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: of a little bit of a random story. First. I 36 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: was in a friend's studio session last year and he 37 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: and I were in this deep conversation about the religious 38 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: trauma that he experienced, but he didn't quite have the 39 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: language to call it. 40 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 3: That. 41 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: It was kind of like just this feeling that this 42 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: forced belief was unhealthy to his childhood and the groups 43 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: of people he had to be around for his parents' 44 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: belief was unhealthy for his childhood. And I remember we 45 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: go to walk in the studio and we're kind of 46 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: tying this conversation up right, like you know, you're about 47 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: to walk into a room other people are there. So 48 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: I as we opened the door, I looked at him 49 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: and I said, well, you know, religious trauma is a 50 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:20,679 Speaker 1: real thing. And everyone in the room stopped making music 51 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: and looked up and had never heard that term before, 52 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: but every single person in the room. It turned into, 53 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: you know, another hour of conversation. Everyone's saying, Yo, what 54 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: did you just say that? Yes, the church hurt me, 55 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: And it was just it was a It was a 56 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: really powerful, profound moment for me to kind of bear 57 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,559 Speaker 1: witness to as someone that was not raised at all 58 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: with any religion or belief, but just knowing that any 59 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: kind of forced belief, any dogma, any institutionalized institutionalizing of 60 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 1: really anything, there can be so much pain and conflict 61 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: and harm in some times. So I'm so excited to 62 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: talk to you about this because this is something that 63 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: is just so incredibly real for hundreds of millions of people. Yes, yes, 64 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: And I think where I'd love to start is how 65 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: did this call find you? How did you know this 66 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: was your work? 67 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 2: So, like you, I wasn't raised in faith. I actually 68 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 2: was raised with the view that faith or religion was 69 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 2: more negative than positive. I was raised by in a 70 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 2: queer household in the eighties and the nineties, so in 71 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 2: that time, it was very much if you're a person 72 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 2: of faith, that feels like you're a person against my family. 73 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 2: So I didn't have the baggage being in a church, right, 74 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 2: but I knew that why do these people not like 75 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 2: my family? So I always just have that in the 76 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 2: back of my mind, you know. And we were raised 77 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 2: in it. I lived in an area where there were 78 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 2: a lot of people practicing. They were Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons, 79 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 2: a lot of Christians, Catholics, very very heavily concentrated more 80 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 2: a Christian faith. 81 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 1: And I was just. 82 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 2: So curious about it. But I didn't really have the 83 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 2: tools to learn about it or understand it. But I 84 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 2: always knew that deep down, my dream, my hope was 85 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 2: somehow to bring people together that didn't understand each other. 86 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 2: I didn't know what that would look like. I thought 87 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 2: it would look like being the president if I'm going 88 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 2: to be very honest with you. 89 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we need a little help in that area, 90 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: but maybe don't lose that mission. 91 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 2: From like first grade on, I'm like, I want to 92 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 2: help people and I'm going to be the president, you know. 93 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 2: But this was always in the back of my mind. 94 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,679 Speaker 2: And then when I was eighteen, I met members of 95 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 2: a church out at a coffee shop and they were 96 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 2: evangelizing and it sounded very interesting to me. And truth 97 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 2: be told, one of the members of the church I 98 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 2: instantaneously had a connection with, like she and I just 99 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 2: connected very deeply. And so I'm like, well, this is 100 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 2: my perfect opportunity to go to this church and like 101 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 2: learn right. And what I ended up learning was there 102 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 2: was a lot of rules and how to participate in 103 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 2: faith and being a queer person myself, my identity didn't 104 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 2: line up with what it what it would mean to 105 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 2: be a person faith and that was very, very difficult. 106 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 2: So I studied, studied, studied, I went and I went 107 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 2: on a missions trip. I went to an ex gay ministry. 108 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 2: I was just staying in the Bible. I went and 109 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: got a bachelor in Southeast Asian religion. I get my 110 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 2: Masters in theology I was just enveloped myself in religious 111 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 2: communities to understand. 112 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: Now, the. 113 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 2: Thing here is I was not ever feeling like I 114 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 2: was wrong, And I think that's important. Like people that 115 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 2: are raised in faith often feel like they're wrong with 116 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 2: a queer identity or many identities, they can do it 117 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 2: that way. So because I didn't have that, I could 118 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 2: go into it almost emotion free. I didn't have a 119 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 2: fear of hell or punishment. I just want to know, 120 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 2: why do you believe this right like and it? And 121 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,119 Speaker 2: by doing that work, I gained an empathy and compassion 122 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 2: and understanding for folks that held those beliefs that were 123 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 2: very high control religion what I call it. So I'm 124 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 2: really dedicated, I would say, my twenties and thirties into 125 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 2: helping the your community understand that faith and sexual orientation 126 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 2: didn't have to be separate because it felt like these 127 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 2: two things are not allowed to interpect. So I feel 128 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,199 Speaker 2: like queer people that were Christian were really put in 129 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 2: a situation where they had to reject the faith because 130 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 2: it felt like the faith was rejected them. That is deeply, 131 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 2: deeply painful. 132 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, just as kind of a baseline understanding for 133 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: everyone listening. What is the definition of religious trauma. 134 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: When so, if you think of PTSD, you know where depression, anxiety, 135 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 2: difficult functioning, challenges and relationship you're just overall something has 136 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 2: impacted you that's making life harder to live in a sense. 137 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: And in this situation, we're talking about religion. And sometimes 138 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 2: with PTSD we can think of it as like a 139 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 2: one time event. Yeah, I was in a car accident. 140 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 2: I'm afraid to be in a car, right, But with 141 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 2: religious trauma, especially if you're raised in the church, going 142 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 2: through these events over and over, so it becomes very 143 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 2: very complex. Yeah, so it impacts the way that you 144 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 2: view yourself in relation to creation, deity, faith systems, scriptures, 145 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 2: and how you navigate the world in these. 146 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: My goodness, and it's just like the insidious nature of that, 147 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: you know, like when you really think of how that 148 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: gets into the fiber of your being and how much 149 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: that can like truly disconnect you from your human experience. 150 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: And you know, just speaking for my belief and I 151 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: believe God and I live in co creation with God, 152 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: It's like what a heinous act to take away someone's 153 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: ability to connect to God because they're equating that with 154 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: what is wrong or bad about them? Wow. 155 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 2: And you know, Debbie, when I focused so much on 156 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 2: the queer community, I didn't think about the level of 157 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 2: impact with others, other communities. And it was maybe about 158 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 2: five or six years ago that I started really looking 159 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 2: at that and I'm like, Okay, well, this is the 160 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 2: female experience in high control religion and what that looks like. 161 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 2: What does it look like when it comes to sexuality 162 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 2: or just sexuality in general, no matter what orientation a 163 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 2: person is, or the ideas of how you're supposed to 164 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 2: pray and if you don't do that a certain way 165 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 2: then you're wrong or stigmatized, and just the various ways 166 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 2: that trauma from religion can show up. And then in 167 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 2: doing that work, I realized other therapists aren't trained in this. 168 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 2: They just don't know. But like you said right at 169 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 2: the beginning of our conversation, when I'm talking about doing this, 170 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 2: I'll get emails from my marketing person and thanks for 171 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 2: talking about this. You know, when I was growing up, 172 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 2: I went to Catholic school and this so it's like, yeah, everybody, 173 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 2: I have really yet to meet a person who has 174 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 2: not experienced some type of religious trauma, whether it's directly 175 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 2: impacted them or someone they know that then impacted them. 176 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 2: It's pervasive. 177 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: Can you can you say a little bit more about 178 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: a term you used a moment ago, high control religion? 179 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: What is that? 180 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 2: Thank you for asking me? You know, because because I 181 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 2: because I feel like we have to be so cautious, 182 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 2: right because different religious groups they do work for some 183 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 2: people perfectly fine, So like something that may not work 184 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 2: for me may work for you. And I don't like 185 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 2: to say, well, conservative Christian, I don't like to do 186 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 2: that because I don't think that that's very very fair 187 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 2: and loving honestly. So when I'm speaking of high control, 188 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 2: it's really the religious group that tells you basically how 189 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 2: to live, how to think, how to pray, how to 190 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 2: have your faith in black and white. And it's just 191 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 2: very strict structure with little You can't really distance yourself 192 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,839 Speaker 2: or have any of your own identity within that group. 193 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 2: H And it can be something as simple as wearing 194 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 2: a pair of pants. You're out of line with God 195 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 2: because you're wearing a pair of pants as a female 196 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 2: right now. That can create a trauma. 197 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, God, it's so I mean, God, there's just so many, 198 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: so many paths right within this conversation and God, it's 199 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: just so so so complex to really think about, you know. 200 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: Within I was a part of this this really awesome 201 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: documentary put together by my friend Teddy called God Talk, 202 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: and It'll luminated me to a lot of things I 203 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: think I had heard about, but I didn't get to 204 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: have direct understanding of as someone that didn't grow up 205 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: in a church in that way. And something that seemed 206 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: to be this really pervasive thread was and this is 207 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: specifically am like Black Christian and Baptist churches in the 208 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: context of these stories, but one the high amount of 209 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: sexual abuse at the hands of the pastor. And like 210 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: one of the stories that was told in that film 211 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: was of a young boy needing to go confess to 212 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: his pastor something and then the pastor kept asking him 213 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: specific questions that were very like gross and out of line. 214 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: And when the little boy stood up, he could see 215 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: that the pastor was doing things with his body under 216 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: the desk while he's talking, and you're just like, like, 217 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: what that does to a child's brain forever? Right, And 218 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: then in the instances of a pastor actually you know, 219 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: harming a child or you know, there are a lot 220 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: of stories have come out recently of just the shaming 221 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: of women and the shaming of sexuality, the shaming of pregnancy. 222 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: And you know, a young girl finding herself pregnant not 223 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: by choice, and then having to stand up in front 224 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: of the church hundreds of people and be shamed and 225 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: apologize for who she is and being told you're not 226 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: allowed to have a baby shower, no one will give 227 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: her gifts for this child, and you're just. 228 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 2: Like Jesus, it breaks my heart. Yeah, it truly knows 229 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 2: break my heart. And that is one of what you're 230 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 2: talking about, That shame and that shame is such an 231 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 2: foundational issue when it comes to the religious trauma. Is 232 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 2: it's not it's past, like Brene Brown says, You know, 233 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 2: shame is not as goes to the heart of like 234 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 2: you are wrong, not I did something wrong. I mean 235 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 2: they're right, you as you exist are wrong. And the 236 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 2: level of pain and that and and and they're saying 237 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 2: it in the name of of God. 238 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, that just the highest stakes there is, 239 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 3: you know, like when you're thinking about your soul, yes, deeply. 240 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: Well, you're writing your new book right now, which I'm 241 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: so excited about. My God have we needed, like a 242 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: comprehensive body of work that speaks to. 243 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 2: This thank you, thank you. I'm you know, it's so funny. 244 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 2: I have to tell you because when Pesse approached me 245 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 2: to write a book, they had actually seen a social 246 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 2: media post that I did. I didn't even believe it 247 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 2: was them at first. I'm like Pesse, But when they 248 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 2: reached out, you know, they're like, we want to know 249 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 2: if you can write a book about just trauma in general, 250 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 2: sexual empowerment, you know, the basically the pillars of which 251 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 2: I specialize in. And they asked for a chapter, and 252 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 2: I wrote a chapter on female sexual empowerment within the 253 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 2: confines of the church, specifically the outgrowth of Catholicism to 254 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 2: Christianity and the impact on women. And I submitted that 255 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 2: chapter and they said, we actually want you to write 256 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 2: an entire book on religious trauma. 257 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: Wow, because there. 258 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 2: Isn't anything like that out there, they said, And there's 259 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 2: not a lot of training for therapists in this area, 260 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 2: and like we're talking about, it is so pervasive. 261 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, you know with this model, you're introducing 262 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: a religious trauma treatment model. Can you share what that 263 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: is and just kind of what inspired you to develop 264 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: this framework and how it's helping. Yes. 265 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 2: So I've been doing this work with clients for a 266 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 2: very long time, and I've been doing this work personally 267 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 2: since you know, eighteen on some level, right, So I 268 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 2: was just thinking, how do I work with my clients, 269 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 2: what do I do? And what I realized is, wait 270 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 2: a minute, and this is actually a model of work 271 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 2: like this is it's taking therapy modalities that already are 272 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 2: evidence based. And I think that that's a very important clarification. 273 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 2: We're using evidence based work and then we're taking that 274 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 2: and we're inserting that into a model that deals with 275 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 2: things like existential crises. We're looking at wow. Yeah, and 276 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 2: we're looking at you know, you know, faith, We're looking 277 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 2: at the reactions of bodies. So we're looking at CBT, DBT, 278 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 2: we're looking at somatic work, narrative work, and then time 279 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 2: that all into religion. And the thing that makes this 280 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 2: a little bit more unique is that we're not saying 281 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 2: in the model, don't be faithful or don't have your 282 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 2: faith anymore. So there's a big component of this that 283 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 2: is helping an individual learn how to continue to have faith. Wow. 284 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 2: And that is a tricky part wow, because I feel 285 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 2: like we I feel like it to say, well, I'm 286 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 2: going to throw this all away. You know, I have 287 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 2: significant anxiety and OCD around sexuality because of my faith. Well, 288 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 2: don't have your faith anymore. Well no, that's that's really 289 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,239 Speaker 2: not going to work for the majority of people. So 290 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 2: how do you reclaim your faith through this model of 291 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 2: therapy work? 292 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: Oh my god? Oh wow? Wow? Like what it like? 293 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: I'm just that's landing in me because yeah, sometimes, like 294 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: when when life is so challenging as it is for 295 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: so many of us, like that is the piece that 296 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 1: you don't even know your chasing, like an ability to 297 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: have faith in anything. Yes, you know, but sometimes it 298 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: does feel like the possibility of even trusting God again 299 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: or having faith in God again seems so far and 300 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: so hard, and it's like that relationship can just be 301 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: so elusive when you have had these compounded, complex types 302 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: of traumas within and without belief, you know. 303 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and especially when you're coming out of that high 304 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 2: control environment. Yeah, and your family is in that environment, 305 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 2: you're right, Your neighborhood group, your culture group, everyone is 306 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 2: in this church. So it's beyond even just shifting your 307 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 2: theological belief It's like, now, how do I embody this 308 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 2: way of believing while everyone else is still believing this? 309 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 2: Or am I being pushed to believe this? Will I 310 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 2: lose my community? I mean there's so many layers here 311 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 2: of I mean, we're looking at a very complex system 312 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 2: of human existence. 313 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: I mean really, yeah, I mean you have to also, yeah, 314 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 1: like you have to completely reprogram even what your understanding 315 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: of community is. And so many people lose theirs in 316 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: this kind of reclamation of their own freedom and self. 317 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: It's like so often we hear stories of you have 318 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: to choose, and you're the entirety of your family, the 319 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: entirety of your neighborhood. Now you're just on the outs 320 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 1: and you've lost everything. 321 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 2: And I saw, you know, especially within the queer community. 322 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 2: What I what I noticed was an outright It's called 323 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 2: the term that people use is christ of phobia, but 324 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 2: it's like you literally feel when when people say they're 325 00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 2: Christian or and that was something that I experience, and I, 326 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 2: if I'm being perfectly honest, I still experience because it 327 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 2: was a trauma for me. It was it was a trigger. 328 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 2: So it's like I hear that and immediately I go 329 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 2: this person's going to hate me. If all this, people 330 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 2: are going to hate me because it was just so ingrained, Right, 331 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 2: So what ends up happening is that you push so 332 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 2: far away from the idea of faith or you almost 333 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 2: turn it into some kind of joke or something silly 334 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 2: or ridiculous. But at the heart of that for many 335 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 2: is pain. 336 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, how is that process? You know a 337 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: lot of your work is really in service to reclaim 338 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: an agency, yeah, you know, personal agency, and you know, 339 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: if someone has been harmed in those specific ways, how 340 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: do you even begin to heal shame around your sexuality? 341 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 2: Great question, and it very much is dependent on where 342 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 2: the person is, because everyone is very, very different. And 343 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 2: in the book, I have a lot of vignettes of 344 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 2: people at different stages and even different faiths trying to 345 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 2: maneuver some of this. But one of the main things 346 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 2: that I want to look at is I need to 347 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 2: understand their value system. Right, like people generally, we're all 348 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 2: living in this very complicated world and most of us 349 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 2: are really just trying to survive. And it's incredible how 350 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 2: many of us don't really have the time to even 351 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 2: stop and say, what do I believe? What do I value, 352 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 2: What do I want my life to look like? We 353 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 2: don't really have these conversations, So first I just want 354 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 2: someone to understand those pieces. Now, if there's someone within 355 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 2: a faith community, I'd like to Okay, well what's the 356 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 2: values that you're receiving out of this faith community? Okay, 357 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 2: what's your value? And then I will especially around like 358 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 2: the Abrahamic faith, with some with I'm pretty knowledgeable bull out, 359 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 2: I'll pull in some scripture scripture as well, you know, like, 360 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 2: for example, a client's coming out of a high control 361 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 2: Christian group, I'll say, well, let's talk about what is Jesus? 362 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 2: And let's talk about what is your particular church, and 363 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 2: let's see what lines up and doesn't line up? And 364 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 2: how does that feel? Flower right? And so it's and 365 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 2: it's it's, it is. It's extensive. Wow, it's very difficult work. 366 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 2: So when a person is even like you know, I've 367 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 2: had clients that it's taken years to leave a church 368 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 2: and it's and that happens when they realize that they're 369 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 2: somadically not doing well and it's almost like they're living 370 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 2: two identities and it becomes difficult. They're not integrated. So 371 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 2: the way I speak to them is how can we integrate? 372 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 2: How can we integrate you? Because this how can you 373 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 2: can't live disassociating from yourself because even that is going 374 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 2: to harm your relationship with the divine? Yeah, you know, 375 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 2: but it's slow. Yeah, can you talk about that? 376 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: You know? What what is it to integrate? What does 377 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: that word mean in this kind of a context, and 378 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: like what is actually happening inside? 379 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 2: So speaking specifically to a queer person, Yeah, So if 380 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 2: you're told that your sexual orientation is wrong, right, and 381 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 2: you are wrong, and then you are in fact this identity. 382 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 2: You can't change your identity. You cannot change who you are. 383 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,719 Speaker 2: But I would make the argument that as a person 384 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 2: of faith, that's not necessarily something you can change either. 385 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 2: It may not be that that particular model, but a 386 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 2: person of faith, I feel like that is equally as 387 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 2: part of your identity. So what we're trying to do 388 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,959 Speaker 2: is say, how can you be a person of faith 389 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 2: and a queer person in a harmonious way, not in 390 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 2: a way that's at odds at odds with each other 391 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 2: where it's like, well, I go to church and I 392 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 2: feel bad about who I am. I second guess my 393 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 2: sexuality or how to act on my sexuality or I'm 394 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 2: constantly obsessed about my sexuality because I'm being told that 395 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 2: it's wrong. How do you open yourself up to have 396 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 2: a real relationship with the divine if you're in constant 397 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 2: turmoil and struggle just because you exist as you exist? 398 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: You know what's so a thought is coming up for me. 399 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: You know, it's so interesting because it's like God predates 400 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 1: the Bible's existence, right, Faith predates the Bible's existence. Yet 401 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: so often when hear about these kind of conflicting ways 402 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: of being able to live within faith, it's because it 403 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: is in contrast of the Bible specifically, not that it's 404 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 1: in contrast of God, not that it's in contrast of 405 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: belief or faith or trust. It is in contrast to 406 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 1: certain things very often taken out of context or kind 407 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: of exaggerated in the Bible. And I don't know if 408 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: I even have an end to that thought, But that's 409 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,719 Speaker 1: someone that's something that came through while you were saying that, 410 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: because it's like, yeah, faith and belief in God. I 411 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: find a lot of beauty and things that are written 412 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: in the Bible, and my relationship to God exists with 413 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: or without my connection to the Bible. 414 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 2: I love that you're saying that, because my largest study 415 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 2: in the theology was first century Christianity and trying and 416 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 2: understanding how did this book come to be? 417 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: Oh, the floor is yours, let's go. 418 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 3: Right. 419 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 2: So I see the book. The Bible is a multitude 420 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 2: of books that came from different areas and in the 421 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 2: Roman Empire, and it was a group of people decided 422 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 2: these are the stories that are going to go in 423 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 2: this book, and we're creating a very specific narrative. Now, 424 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 2: not every book that is in there is the oldest 425 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 2: or the most primary source. So when I look at 426 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 2: the Bible, I go, Okay, this is a book of 427 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 2: humans trying to understand God at its best incarnation. I'll 428 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 2: put it like that. I can see it as like 429 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 2: it's political, it's it's I can see it as many 430 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 2: different ways negatively, but I'm going to choose to say 431 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 2: this is just us learning. 432 00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know. 433 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 2: So it's like, it's not so much that in following 434 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 2: word for word for word, how we're interpreting things today 435 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 2: and the translation of today, but it's more about what 436 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 2: is the overall message that we're trying to understand from 437 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: this book. And how than just being myself, how does 438 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 2: this relate or correlate with what messages I'm seeing in 439 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 2: other faith groups? 440 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: Yeah? 441 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 2: Right, and there are many things that overlap. And I'm 442 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 2: sure you've heard this, and you I'm sure you live this. 443 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 2: Love is the defining factor of all of this, absolutely, right, Absolutely, 444 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 2: We're not going to get anywhere yelling Bible versus at 445 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 2: each other like you know. So it's like I'm not 446 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 2: going to do that. I'm not going to try to 447 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 2: disprove someone's faith because while historically speaking, this didn't happen 448 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 2: to No, that's your faith, it's beautiful, it's great. Let's 449 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: talk about. 450 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: Of Yeah, yeah, are you showing up in love? 451 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 2: Are you? If we look at who we understand Jesus 452 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 2: to be yes, Okay, do we understand Jesus to be. 453 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: Right? 454 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: I mean, really, Jesus is with the marginalized, the hurting. 455 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 2: Jesus is all love. He he is throwing away these rules. 456 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 2: I mean, it's and Jesus is. 457 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: The epitome of mastery of self, mastery of integrity of love. Yes, 458 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: and it is always shocking to me. Well, it also 459 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: just proves so many people wear it as a cloak 460 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: right or wear you know, belief really just as the 461 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: thing to fit in. But they aren't doing their own 462 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: study or they aren't in their own relationship with God 463 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: or with faith, because so many people know the name 464 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: of Jesus but refuse to live the tenets of Christ. Oh. Absolutely, 465 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: And it's just it's like, yeah, sorry, I'm. 466 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 2: Just like you're right though, because you know, it's I 467 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 2: had a great conversation with a couple of professors the 468 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 2: other day because you know, nerding out on this, and 469 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 2: we were talking about, well, how did this happen? Well, 470 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,719 Speaker 2: it happens because you have the church fathers from the 471 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 2: first century or deciding what it means to be a 472 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 2: Christian because when Jesus dies, there's nothing there. Who was 473 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 2: this person? What happened? What do we do with this message? 474 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 2: So now you have human beings trying to build a religion, 475 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 2: and it was built in different ways across the Roman 476 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 2: Empire by different groups of people, and then it was 477 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 2: solidified into one Catholic church not until three hundred and 478 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:49,719 Speaker 2: like twenty AD under a Constantine the emperor. Right, So 479 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 2: that's when you now get this solidified faith, and that's 480 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 2: when idea is about what does it mean to have 481 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 2: free will? What does the trinity mean? These are being 482 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 2: decided by people three hundred years later. So that's why 483 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 2: I feel like this is people trying to understand God, 484 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 2: trying to understand the faith, right, but it's fascinating. But 485 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 2: like Jesus, what do we know about Jesus when you're 486 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 2: looking at sourcing around that time love? But the church 487 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 2: fathers and coming out of Constantine sexuality, women viewed so 488 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:31,479 Speaker 2: negatively and it was used to marginalize and harm people 489 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 2: in the name of Jesus. And that's why we have 490 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 2: what we have today is a faith that for some 491 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 2: is used just to do that, even though it's the 492 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 2: antithesis of how we understand Jesus to be. So it's 493 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 2: like Jesus Versus high control. Christianity deeply well. 494 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: In all the kind of ways that your work and 495 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: your curiosity and your lived expens experience kind of come 496 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: together and intersect. What are some of the biggest kind 497 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: of gaps you see, especially in mental health care, because 498 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: I think there is religious trauma, and then they're also 499 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: is therapized trauma. You know, people like kind of going 500 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: and seeking therapists to reconcile to integrate, and therapists sometimes 501 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: being very misaligned with someone's identity or the way to 502 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: truly be able to help them. What are some of 503 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: the gaps you see in mental health care when it 504 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: comes to supporting queer individuals and how can therapists really 505 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: create truly affirming spaces. 506 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 2: First, we all need to have humility because sometimes we 507 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 2: really don't know what we don't know. And I will 508 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 2: see therapists that we'll say I can work with queer 509 00:33:55,120 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 2: couples because I work with straight couples. It's different. It 510 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 2: is different, you know. But when we were in school, 511 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 2: our profession really teaches that you can work with anybody. 512 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 2: We call for cultural competence, but we teach we're taught 513 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 2: you can work with anyone. But cultural competence is really important. 514 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,280 Speaker 2: And I think that's because there is not enough mental 515 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 2: health workers to support the population. But in my practice, 516 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,760 Speaker 2: I lean very much into if you do not really 517 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 2: specialize in a disorder or a group of people, don't 518 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 2: do it. Wow, just don't do it. I see the 519 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 2: gaps everywhere, but I think we don't fill in the 520 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 2: gaps necessarily by trying to learn everything. We fill in 521 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 2: the gaps by saying, hey, let me professionally network with 522 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 2: people that are different than me, so I have a 523 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 2: place for clients that are coming to me that I 524 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 2: cannot really work with or I don't have the skill 525 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,399 Speaker 2: set to work with, because I know that Dev does 526 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 2: have the skill set to work with these people and 527 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 2: they're going to get good care with Dev. That's that 528 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 2: is the gap filling. 529 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 1: Truly, I'm so glad you said that, and I think 530 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 1: like that is such that is its own kind of episode. 531 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,879 Speaker 1: This this understanding of like humility within expertise. You know, 532 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: it's like and that is not That's what really needs 533 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,359 Speaker 1: to come online in the world a lot more. And 534 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: I think we've been in this culture which is look 535 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: at me, look at me, look at me, especially from 536 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,359 Speaker 1: an expert standpoint. I mean we definitely say that within 537 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: the influencer culture and the girl boss culture and the 538 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: online culture, but also with an expertise. It's like everyone 539 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: wants to just say I'm the top, I'm this, I'm 540 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 1: the and it's like true expertise is what you said. 541 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,320 Speaker 1: It's knowing when when you have specialized in something or 542 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: given a lot of particular thought and study to particular 543 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: things that your call to do and passing the baton 544 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 1: when you can't do that. 545 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and you know, I'm so cautious to like 546 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 2: getting my message out there. People want to say, Okay, 547 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 2: well you are an expert in this, and as you've 548 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 2: just said the word specialty, I say, I never ever 549 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 2: actually want to say expert because I don't believe an 550 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 2: expert exists. 551 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: I just don't. 552 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 2: I believe that there's people that specialize in things. They've 553 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,399 Speaker 2: spent their life working on something, they have a great 554 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 2: deal of knowledge and can teach others. But an expert 555 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 2: is like God level, and that just does not exist. 556 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 2: Then that's why I think we need to continue with 557 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 2: that humility, because there's always room to learn and to 558 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 2: grow and to discover. 559 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. God, And with each generation, everything changes, Yes, is 560 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: that kind of the time? Everything changes exactly? 561 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 2: Like working with you know, queer folks twenty years ago 562 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 2: is not what it is now. I have to I 563 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 2: have to learn so much at one time, you know, 564 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 2: and at thirty I was an expert in this. 565 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: Yeah I'm novice. 566 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 2: Because the experience of people in their twenties looks really different, 567 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:18,320 Speaker 2: you know, So that learning is continuing, Oh my god. 568 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: And to that point too. You know something I think 569 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: within that context and also just within other systems, it's 570 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: like the trauma of that even right of like what 571 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 1: it must have been like, Like if you're someone who's 572 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: part of the Silent generation or the Boomer generation and 573 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: you're queer, and what you're navigating and you're healing may 574 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 1: be completely different than someone who has different kinds of 575 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: freedoms and visibility, who's queer in Gen Z or maybe 576 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: queer within the Alpha generation. It's there are going to 577 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: be different pain points that you might be navigating with 578 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:52,760 Speaker 1: different groups. 579 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I remember twenty years ago when I 580 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 2: started to think of what word do I want to 581 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 2: use LGBTQ queer, What do I want to say? And 582 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 2: I use the word queer, and I had quite a 583 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,760 Speaker 2: bit of backlash from people that were in older generation. 584 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 2: So that word was hurt to that word was used 585 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 2: to harm us. It's hard triggering, right. But now we're 586 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 2: in a space, and we've been in a space probably 587 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 2: for at least a decade now where that word is 588 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 2: taken back and we're empowered by that word. But twenty 589 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 2: years ago, that word was harmful. Yeah, So I mean 590 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 2: to your. 591 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 1: Pata has so much sense and the beauty of that 592 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:39,240 Speaker 1: nuance of being able. I think as multiple generations alive 593 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 1: at the same time to hold space for that nuance 594 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 1: in each of our individualized experiences. 595 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 2: Yes, and just have empathy and compassion. And I think 596 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 2: we get caught in our echo chambers sometimes and it's 597 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 2: really important to And I know I keep saying the 598 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 2: word humble, are humble but real, like to humble ourselves 599 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 2: and be around people that have really different experiences than us. 600 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, humble is one of my favorite words of 601 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: all time. I did a three part series on this 602 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 1: podcast on humility this year. So when I say you 603 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: are like speaking my language, because everyone gets that word wrong. 604 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: I think in today's day and age, that is about 605 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 1: boisterousness and it's about self aggrandizing and visibility. It's like people, 606 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 1: I think have such a misinterpreted understanding of what the 607 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: word humility is. Like the path of Christ is the 608 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: path of humility and mastery, right like, and everyone thinks human, Well, 609 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,240 Speaker 1: I'm not going to be quiet or no, I'm great 610 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 1: and everyone's going to know I'm great, and I'm like, 611 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,399 Speaker 1: that's that's not what being humble is. It doesn't mean 612 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 1: be small, be minimized, being visible exact, humble is power, 613 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: yees like it is a quiet power or that can 614 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,719 Speaker 1: fill a room. Yes, and help a room, you know, 615 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: I think humble rest and service and curiosity and empathy. Yes, exactly, 616 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 1: Thank you. This episode is just yeah, special and important. 617 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: You know, I think before I to talk to you 618 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,840 Speaker 1: all day and week and month. But you know, with you, 619 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 1: with your new book on the Horizon and your work 620 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,960 Speaker 1: and mental health advocacy growing, what is your ultimate hope 621 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,400 Speaker 1: for how this field is able to evolve in in 622 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: addressing excuse me, religious trauma and inclusivity. 623 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 2: Even though my book is religious trauma, I want to 624 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 2: speak specifically to inclusivity because that to me is as everything, 625 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:56,240 Speaker 2: that's the umbrella of everything. Inclusivity. We need more people 626 00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 2: in this field that are differ different, I mean honestly, 627 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 2: like we just we need folks from all backgrounds and 628 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 2: all religions and all identities and life experiences to have 629 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 2: access to the type of training first off, that is 630 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,840 Speaker 2: beneficial for as many communities possible. There's a lot that 631 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,200 Speaker 2: I could break down there in itself, but I'll say 632 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 2: that like evolving, the training evolves as more voices are 633 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,799 Speaker 2: involved in what that training looks like, and then more 634 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,280 Speaker 2: communities have access to care that's going to make sense 635 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 2: for them. So everything is about inclusivity. So my work 636 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:47,880 Speaker 2: does focus on religion and focus on sexual empowerment, even nominogamy, 637 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 2: things that people sometimes tends up, even therapists tends up 638 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 2: to talk about. You know, I'm doing trainings on you know, 639 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 2: how sex work can be empowering for some people in 640 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 2: mental health, Like I am very very into what therapists 641 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 2: themselves might feel a little uncomfortable with and just tearing 642 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:14,880 Speaker 2: those walls down and educating and advocating, and every person, 643 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:16,880 Speaker 2: no matter who they are, feels like they have a 644 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,480 Speaker 2: safe space to go and be themselves and grow and 645 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:24,320 Speaker 2: be the best versions of themselves in a very challenging world. 646 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:29,239 Speaker 1: In a very challenging world. Wow, And I'm sure you know, 647 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:30,879 Speaker 1: I think a lot of what you were saying too 648 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 1: is like continued education and curiosity for those that are 649 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 1: already a part of that of that world and that network, 650 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:43,000 Speaker 1: because everything is always changing, Like it's just it's so 651 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 1: easy to get stuck in one way of doing things, 652 00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,799 Speaker 1: maybe with clients or within your network of you know, 653 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,760 Speaker 1: therapists or doctors. 654 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:58,359 Speaker 2: And I think it's important to push back, to advocate, 655 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,759 Speaker 2: to learn, you know. I feel like like you're saying, 656 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 2: like you can get stuck in certain ideas, and I'm 657 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,440 Speaker 2: a big believer in like learning as much as you 658 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:10,920 Speaker 2: possibly can about something. 659 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: You know. 660 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,760 Speaker 2: So it's and looking at standards of care. Now, granted, 661 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 2: this probably wouldn't fly so great with my board, but 662 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:22,720 Speaker 2: I often look and say, all right, there's this rule here, 663 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,360 Speaker 2: but my value system my supervisor loved this is what 664 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 2: I was in this. I said, my value system does 665 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 2: not align with this. I said, this rule is going 666 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:39,879 Speaker 2: to change one day, but my value system and love 667 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,280 Speaker 2: and care is not. How do we shift this rule? 668 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 3: You know? 669 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:46,760 Speaker 2: So it's like I believe we do have to fight 670 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,759 Speaker 2: back at these systems, even the systems that are here 671 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 2: to help and support, there's still parts of that that 672 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 2: we have to fight back. Yeah, and say, how do 673 00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,120 Speaker 2: we change this for a changing world where there are 674 00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 2: more voices and involved in this? 675 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much. At the end of every episode, 676 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,839 Speaker 1: I like to invite our guests to provide some soul 677 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 1: work for the audience, which can be really anything that 678 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:18,600 Speaker 1: allows those listening to integrate even further into the conversation 679 00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 1: they just heard and witnessed. So sometimes that looks like 680 00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 1: a journal prompt or a somatic practice, a thought starter, 681 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: a prayer, a meditation, absolutely anything goes. 682 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,480 Speaker 2: I know just what to say everyone out there, A 683 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:42,720 Speaker 2: lot of us are experiencing anxiety right now, and stress 684 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,160 Speaker 2: and cortisol creates more stress. That's going off the hook 685 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,560 Speaker 2: for some of us. What I'd like you to be 686 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,719 Speaker 2: able to do is just when you find yourself experiencing stress, 687 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:58,359 Speaker 2: try to open up your chest and breathe. Because oftentimes 688 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 2: when we do feel stress dur anxiety, our instinctual reaction 689 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,239 Speaker 2: is to come in like this, which actually makes the 690 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:11,520 Speaker 2: stress and anxiety worse. So next time you're experiencing that, 691 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 2: try to make a practice of knowing what's going on 692 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 2: with your body in moments of stress and anxiety, and 693 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:21,160 Speaker 2: just try opening up your chest and just taking some 694 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:25,840 Speaker 2: breath and just grounding yourself and taking thirty seconds to 695 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,960 Speaker 2: just be there in your body, check in with your systems, 696 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,120 Speaker 2: and you know, for my clients, I'll say try that 697 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,080 Speaker 2: two or three times a day. Put an alarm on 698 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,120 Speaker 2: your phone. We need ground yourself in your body a 699 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:44,120 Speaker 2: couple of times a day. We're one system where we 700 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,520 Speaker 2: have to be connected the whole thing, the whole thing, right, 701 00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:49,600 Speaker 2: and sometimes we're so disgiectous from our bodies that were 702 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:54,800 Speaker 2: so anxious that we're not connecting and helpful ways. 703 00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,320 Speaker 1: And that's the piece that changes your life. Yeah, like that, 704 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:01,759 Speaker 1: that's the piece that allows you to change your choices. Yes, 705 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:06,560 Speaker 1: which changes your life absolutely. Oh my gosh, I just 706 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:08,640 Speaker 1: I cannot wait for your book to come out. Oh 707 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 1: thank you. This is going to be just I think, 708 00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:14,920 Speaker 1: such a game changer for so many people and for everyone. 709 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,279 Speaker 1: I want to It's coming out next year, but I 710 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,360 Speaker 1: want to put it on everyone's radar. The book is 711 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:24,919 Speaker 1: called Religious Trauma Treatment Model, Religious Trauma Treatment Ma Dol 712 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:27,880 Speaker 1: definitely write this down journalist. 713 00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, my website. You can subscribe there and I'll give 714 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,360 Speaker 2: updates of when the book's coming out as well. 715 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:35,920 Speaker 1: And if you scroll down into the show notes of 716 00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,400 Speaker 1: this episode, either on YouTube or Apple or Spotify wherever 717 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,520 Speaker 1: you're listening from right now, you'll be able to click 718 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:46,799 Speaker 1: directly into Anne's website and click into every single way 719 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:51,480 Speaker 1: that you can possibly contact or enjoy her work. Debbie, 720 00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,680 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today. 721 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,200 Speaker 2: Such a pleasure, such a soulful conversation. 722 00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,400 Speaker 1: Thank you, and Russo. I can't wait to get the book. 723 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,160 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you for listening everyone. We will be 724 00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:11,840 Speaker 1: back next week now Mistaysday. The content presented on Deeply 725 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:16,279 Speaker 1: Well serves solely for educational and informational purposes. It should 726 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,280 Speaker 1: not be considered a replacement for personalized medical or mental 727 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:25,120 Speaker 1: health guidance, and does not constitute a provider patient relationship. 728 00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,560 Speaker 1: As always, it is advisable to consult with your healthcare 729 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:33,399 Speaker 1: provider or health team or any specific concerns or questions 730 00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:37,200 Speaker 1: that you may have. Connect with me on social at 731 00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,360 Speaker 1: Debbie Brown. That's Twitter and Instagram, or you can go 732 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,200 Speaker 1: to my website Debbie Brown dot com. And if you're 733 00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:47,840 Speaker 1: listening to the show on Apple Podcasts, don't forget. Please rate, review, 734 00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,800 Speaker 1: and subscribe and send this episode to a friend. Deeply 735 00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,000 Speaker 1: Well is a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network. 736 00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:59,120 Speaker 1: It's produced by Jack Leise Thomas, Samantha Timmos, and me 737 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:03,880 Speaker 1: Debbie Brown. The beautiful Soundback You Heard That's by Jarrelyn 738 00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:09,200 Speaker 1: Glass from Crystal Cadence. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit 739 00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:13,320 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.