WEBVTT - Can Love Survive a Budget!? w/ Doug & Heather Boneparth #1052 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.080 Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel, and today I'm 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:06.800 asking the question can love survive a budget? With Doug 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:28.120 and Heather Bonaparte. So figuring out your money is tough 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:31.080 enough if you're flying solo. Doing it with your partner 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:34.280 ramps up the difficulty level because you're throwing in varied 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:37.519 money history, habits, and goals into the equation. It can 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:39.960 create a lot of friction. So my guests today they 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:42.080 have a lot of great advice for couples looking to 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:44.600 do better with their finances and to create a team 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:47.760 vibe with their partner. So if you looked up the 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:50.839 definition I think of power couple in the dictionary, you 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:54.120 might just see a picture of Doug and Heather Bonaparth 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:57.040 next to it. Doug has built his own successful financial 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:01.000 advisor firm while simultaneously tweeting hilarious memes. And Heather is 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:04.800 a former corporate attorney. She's the director of business affairs 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:07.840 for that firm, bona Fide Wealth, and they've written a 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:11.920 fabulous new book called Money Together. Doug and Heather, thank 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:13.920 you so much for joining me today on the podcast. 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:15.360 Well, thanks for having us. 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:16.800 We're so excited to be here. 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:20.240 It's going to be a lovely conversation. The first question 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:23.040 I have for anybody who comes on the show is 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:24.640 what do you like to splurge on? What's your craft 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:26.800 beer equivalent. I know you guys are being smart, you're 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:29.360 saving and investing for the future, but what are you 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:31.320 blowing money on in the meantime. 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:35.240 I like to splurge on, probably clothes and fashion. But 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:38.559 then on the family front, we've really like our kids 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:41.840 are now nine and six, and we've just aged into 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:45.440 like our vacation era. Like, we really didn't want to 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:47.360 spend a lot of money on vacations when the kids 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:49.640 were younger, because they one, they have no idea what's 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:52.240 going on. Two, it's a lot more work. It's more 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:55.120 like like just you know, just doing the family stuff 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:57.680 somewhere else. But now, like we all really enjoy it. 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:01.480 So I would say vacations are even more important than 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:03.720 probably anything else we're spending money on right now. 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:06.440 Right, Yeah, I'm aligned on the vacation side. This, This 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:07.960 is really where I'd like to spend the most money 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:10.960 creating those experiences. So good job there, I'm being aligned. 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:13.720 He don't lie, No, No, I'm gonna get selfish with it. 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:17.200 I'll go with my Look, I'm a collector, a habitual 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:19.960 one at that. I'm that nineties kid that was collecting things, 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:22.799 you know, throughout my entire life, and right now what 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:26.799 I am collecting is tequila. Oh oh yeah, oh yeah? 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:29.720 So that that truly would be your craft beer equivalent there, right, 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:34.200 So tequila, I've been stuck in that space for at 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:36.760 least two or three years now, and I do not 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.880 see myself getting out of it. I am a little 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:42.960 intimidated by how many bottles need to be consumed at 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:45.880 this point to actually like get through it. So good, 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:46.600 good job, Doug. 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:49.919 So okay, so what attracts you to tequila? 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:50.320 Are you? 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:53.560 And are you like going for high end fancy labels 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:55.800 and and are you I guess this is a question. 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.560 Do you ever adulterate it and make a margarita with 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:00.720 that tequila? Or is this no, this is like you 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:01.519 sip it by itself? 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.359 Now, now, Joel, are you sure we're going to get 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:07.320 to talk about We'll get there? Look here today, because 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:08.919 you just opened up a huge can of work. 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:12.560 The next fifteen minutes is brought to you by a 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:17.399 gove it. These are awesome questions. Yes, I will make 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:20.440 a margarita, and you obviously will use you know, a 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:22.520 certain type of tequila to do that. But the great 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:24.920 part about tequila is you don't need to spend a 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:28.120 whole ton of money to drink really good tequila. There 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:31.120 are thirty forty fifty dollars bottles that you can buy. 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:36.640 They're absolutely wonderful, but I am usually sipping it like 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:41.000 my blancos, probably more than anything else. Although aged you know, 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:43.880 Renisado's and the Niehos are wonderful too. We can talk 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:46.840 about this for hours and hours, but yeah, look, there 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:48.520 are some there are some bottles in there. 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:49.920 What's the most important thing. 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:52.400 The most important thing, guys, for anyone trying to drink 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:57.440 tequila is that it is additive free, right, three ingredients. Right, 0:03:57.480 --> 0:03:59.920 It's water, yeast and cooked to god. 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:02.560 That is it? Okay? What about what about mescal? 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:04.920 I haven't gone down that road yet. Like I feel 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.520 like the bourbon drinker is to rye, you know, and 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:11.160 your Scotch drinkers go super pety like that is the 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:15.960 tequila drinker trying to elevate, you know, their experience into mescal. 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:18.760 I'm not a big smoky guy. Lots of appreciation for it. 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.880 Great in a cocktail if you want that smoky you know, 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:25.159 agave flavor, but not not what I'm sipping on. I'm 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:26.960 usual to be looking for a high proof or a 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:27.600 nice blanco. 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.120 Okay, good news, good, it's good to know. Yeah, let's 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:33.279 let's talk about couples of money, because I could ask 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:36.240 you more questions about tequila, but we'll stop here. Tell me. 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:38.719 Tell me a little bit about your own relationship to money, 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:40.880 maybe individually, and then what it was like to bring 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:44.000 that history together when you got married. I think that's 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:47.160 often one of those things where you talk about a 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.320 lot of things as a couple pre marriage, and money 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:51.920 might be one of those things that doesn't get talked 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:53.000 about as much as it should. 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:57.080 Oh yeah, I admittedly had a very unhealthy relationship with 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:00.919 money growing up. I'm an only child and grandchild on 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:04.480 both sides of my family. My parents divorced right as 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:08.960 I entered my teenage years, and it really impacted just 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:14.200 my perception of not only wealth, but just of money 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:18.359 in general. A real picture of scarcity was painted for 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:21.440 me for a while there in those teenage years, and 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:26.400 also from my father's side of the family, who came 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:30.080 from wealth, and money was kind of viewed as a tool. 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:33.880 Money was used to buy loyalty, and to give money 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:36.960 was to show love, and to withhold money was to 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:40.760 withhold love. And those are some those are some deep 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:44.760 messages to carry into adulthood. You know. Pair that with 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:48.839 graduating law school in the midst of the Great Recession. 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.120 You know, I had chosen, you know, to go to 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:55.400 law school because it felt like a responsible thing to do. 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:58.800 It felt like my path to financial independence was to 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:01.240 earn as much money as I can in a high 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:05.919 paying career and kind of like search for that search 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:10.120 for that exit from those family structures, at least emotionally, right, 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:13.559 But that's not what happened. The decision kind of flew 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:15.600 back in my face, and I graduated in law school 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:18.240 with six figures of student loan debt and a ton 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:24.080 ton of shame, and so carrying all of those feelings 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:28.640 and money scripts and emotions and yeah, shame into our 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:33.279 adult relationship. You know, when I say adult relationship, I 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:36.000 talk about the time that Doug and I really began 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:39.479 to discuss marriage and settling down and having kids and 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.200 starting our adult lives together. I mean, we knew each 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:45.159 other long before that. But when you really start to 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:49.560 talk about coming together, merging your lives together, talking about 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.880 joint and shared goals, like you really have to start 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:56.520 to do the work to unpack some of this stuff. 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:59.320 Right, And when shame is there, it can be so difficult, 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:01.680 it can it can be an inhibitor to those conversations. 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:04.719 So I'm curious where that shame come from and maybe 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:07.720 came from, and then how that impacted your ability to 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:11.280 kind of merge finances and come up with a cohesive 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:12.080 strategy together. 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:17.360 Sure, you know, the shame came from feeling like choosing 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:21.000 an expensive law school. It was a huge mistake. It 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:25.120 was a huge financial regret for me, and I started 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:30.160 to feel like not only was I not worthy of success, 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:33.680 but I wasn't worthy of happiness, and that I was 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:41.080 in fact worthless. And you know, those feelings were reinforced 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:44.119 by the labor environment that I entered into. I spent 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:47.200 some time in private practice at a law firm. You know, 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:49.960 being a young woman in corporate law is difficult enough 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:53.360 as it is now. Tried doing it, you know, following 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:57.480 in the years of the Great Recession and being underpaid, overworked, 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:00.680 you know, all these messages together kind of sets you 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:04.360 up to not really being the most empowered around the 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:06.560 financial decisions that you've made. And I think that that's 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.240 one of the toughest things is looking back at that 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:12.320 time and being like, wow, I truly felt so stuck. 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:15.640 Had I really did not believe one, I didn't have 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:18.600 any control, any financial control at that time, like staring 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:22.880 at that giant student loan balance. But I also didn't 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:27.520 think I was worthy of making financial decisions. I really didn't. 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:29.680 I was like, well, you messed up. This is the 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:31.600 lot you made for yourself and you're going to pay 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:33.160 for it for the rest of your life. And that 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:36.079 sounds really heavy, but it really felt that heavy at 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:36.440 the time. 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:38.840 Doug, where were you coming from? And what's it like 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:41.560 to enter into a relationship with someone who's kind of 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:42.840 feeling all those things? 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:45.880 Yeah, Heather pointed out, we've been together for a very 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:48.880 long time. I mean, I'm here for everything. She said. 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.520 We met as freshmen in college when we were were 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:54.440 eighteen and nineteen, so I was along for the ride here. 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:56.880 And just give you a little bit of background as 0:08:56.920 --> 0:08:59.000 far as where I was coming from. I was the 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:02.480 son and grandson of serial entrepreneurs. You know, there was 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:06.160 this lesson of always investing in yourself and you could 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:08.600 go out there and build something. I watched my dad 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:11.680 do it, I saw my grandfather do it, and that 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:14.520 was a really awesome thing to experience. My brother and 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:18.440 I started businesses of you know, fixing computers, you know, 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:21.160 selling things on eBay when it came around. We were 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:23.120 kind of born with the hustle and taught that that's 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:25.040 a good thing. And as much as there was a 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:27.240 lot of good parts of that, there was also some 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:31.200 bad parts. We learned valuable lessons, you know through you know, 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:34.200 what's like to overextend yourself, what happens when there's too 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:37.120 much risk on the table. Particularly through that, you know, 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:39.360 two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine period, as 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.400 I was working with my father, and I think a 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:44.640 lot of it also backfired on me and that, hey, 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:46.600 you know, you're going to just work in family business. 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:49.160 My father worked with his father, and therefore it was 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:52.000 kind of assumed I would work with my father, and 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.120 you know that that blinded a person from well what 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:58.520 do I really want? You know, all paths led me 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:01.600 to leave my family business and go to New York City, 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:03.960 to be with Heather and have us kind of figure 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:05.880 it out. And here we are in two thousand and 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:08.560 eight and nine, you know, her with multiple six figures 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:10.880 in student loan debt, me coming up to New York 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:12.880 figuring like, hey, well we'll figure out how to make 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:15.719 our lives work together. I go to business school and 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:18.800 take on another six figures in student loan debt because 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:21.880 at this point, like why not, you know, I was 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:24.920 very much committed to us, you know, taking these next 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:25.839 steps in our lives. 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:26.800 What's another one hundred k? 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.079 What's another one hundred k when she's got three hundred thousand? 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:33.520 You know? It's also a problem solver. I think that's 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:35.880 that's what he really gets at here, is that Doug 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:41.000 was someone who viewed problems as challenges to overcome, and 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:44.280 I viewed it as like crippling. I didn't know how 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:46.720 to be nimble, but the background that he came from, 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:48.440 he only knew how to be nimble. 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:50.640 Right, So was that what was that like then? Was 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.200 that like a breath of fresh air for you, Heather? 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:55.120 Or was that like more debility? 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:59.560 It was difficult. Honestly, it was difficult because I felt like, 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:03.240 on one hand, he couldn't possibly understand. He also never 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:05.800 really worked in a corporate setting before, so this was 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:07.719 something that that was a point of friction for us 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:10.280 for many years. You know, when when he's never had 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:12.760 that experience, it's like, sure, you can approach you know, 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:16.199 you can approach my my situation with with a bit 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:18.559 of naivete about like, oh, just go in and tell 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:20.760 the partner that you know, he's a jerk. 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.840 And that I think was less of think less of that, 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:27.080 and more back to the like I knew Heather had 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:29.720 done well in law school and had equipped herself with 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:33.160 a you know, vast amount of knowledge that would serve 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:36.000 her well. And I think it's you know, short term 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:38.800 thinking versus long term thinking. That's not you know, the 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.720 entrepreneur thinks, you know, it plays long games, right, Everything 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:45.760 I was doing was going to be a slow and 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:48.200 long grind to get there. And that's not to say 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:50.880 Heather lacks, you know, the ability to think that way. 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.840 Is that when you're thrusted into the environment in which 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:56.760 she did, and you're standing down, staring down the barrel 0:11:56.800 --> 0:12:00.199 of student loan debt of that size, it is extremely 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:03.040 difficult for me to say, hey, you've made a great 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:05.280 investment in yourself. It's going to take time to pan 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:08.520 to pay off when you're carrying that shame and you're 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:11.680 carrying the regret of the decisions you made in that 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:14.120 three year period of time of going to law school 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:15.880 and graduating in the recession. 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:19.480 Well, a very a very intelligen CFP we interviewed for 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:23.040 the book had said that shame is not a funk. 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:27.400 Shame is a fog. It's fear, obligation, and guilt, and 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:31.800 it's so sometimes blinding that you just cannot see more 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:33.960 than a foot in front of your face. And that 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.800 truly was me, And that was the difference between Doug 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:39.960 and I during that time. Yeah, sure he had that 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:42.800 long term thinking, but I was My judgment was so 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:44.760 clouded by the fog of the shame that I was 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:46.440 in that there was just no way for me to 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:48.200 see passed it for a while, but we did. 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:50.560 Yeah, tell me if I'm wrong. My guess is that 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:52.720 sometimes sometimes, maybe Heather, it was hard to even put 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:54.520 your finger on the fact that you were feeling shame 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:56.920 like it was guiding a lot of your decision making 0:12:56.920 --> 0:12:59.400 processes and was guiding some of those relational dynamics but 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:01.760 you're like, I can't. I can't call it shame. I 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:03.280 don't realize that's what it is. And I think that's 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:06.160 the unobserved reality that's directing a lot of people's lives, 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:07.400 especially how they handle money. 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:10.000 I will tell you this, I had never used the 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:13.320 word shame to describe my mid to late twenties until 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:17.680 I started interviewing experts for this book. And when somebody 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:21.240 said shame to me, I started I started to cry. 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:26.080 Experts, Yeah, and she shines a spotlight on it, and 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:27.160 you're like, that's what it was. 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:29.760 I still say it, and I wrote it in the book. 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.960 I said, when when they said this to me, the 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:36.000 shame washed over my body again. 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:42.960 Yeah, Doug, I'm curious. You are a financial planner. How 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:46.200 much have you learned about the relational dynamics of money 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:49.080 as you've worked with clients, Because a lot of people 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:52.760 assume financial advisor. He's helped me pick the right funds 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:54.640 to me in. But you're so much more of a 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:57.240 coach in so many ways. What does that look like 0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:58.280 and what have you learned from that? 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.600 Oh? Yeah, it goes well beyond on just the investment piece, right, 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:03.600 you have so many areas that we focus on, from 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.680 cash management all the way through a state planning. But 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:08.760 at the end of the day, as much as you're 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:12.160 writing great financial plans and walking clients through it, you're 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:14.160 trying to connect to them on a human level and 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:16.280 figure out how you can help them make the best 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.440 decisions for themselves as humanly possible one and I got 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.120 to give credit to any couple that's coming to the 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:25.160 table of a financial professional to engage in planning. A 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:27.080 lot of the things we hope to accomplish in this 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:30.920 book get carried out through meeting with your advisor regularly, 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:34.200 putting down a plan, and implementing the recommendations that are 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:37.560 designed to help them get to the goals that they have. 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.320 But financial planning is not a cure all. When you 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:46.120 have people coming in with a predisposition in their relationship 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.480 or in more importantly, in themselves, they have yet to 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:54.080 discover their own identity with money, so they're incapable of 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:57.800 working together with their partner to play the team game. 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.280 They haven't even done the individual rual sport yet. So 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.520 I see that a lot in practice, and over twenty 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:08.680 years I've seen it all right from couples who you 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:11.040 know you have the silent partner at the table who 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:13.600 says nothing is distracted. Maybe they're on their phone and 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:16.680 just they're not participating, and you, as a professional, are 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:19.000 really wondering why there's a lot of professionals who won't 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:21.280 even touch that with a ten foot poll. As long 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:24.720 as one person, as long as the decision maker is listening, 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:27.600 they're going to continue, you know, going down that path, 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:31.320 and that will backfire later on in the client relationship, 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:35.720 and more importantly, it will not create a team that 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:39.480 is required to get to the joint goals that hopefully 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.960 people have together all the way over to the positive sides, 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:47.040 where people are building up their ability to understand each 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:52.000 other and sort out their pre existing feelings, therefore being 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:54.800 able to talk about their joint goals and the things 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:57.320 that they want for themselves and start playing the team 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:01.040 game that will never end. That's the easy thing about 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:05.480 money together. Pun intended is that you don't get to 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:08.160 win the game. You just get to play different versions 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:11.360 of the game, maybe a different level, and they don't 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:14.960 stop from literally birth to death. So figuring out how 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:17.400 to play it is going to be extremely important if 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.000 you want happiness, if you want fulfillment if you want 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:22.520 to feel like you have enough, which we definitely touch 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:23.120 on in the book. 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:24.920 Let me say this one thing. I think one of 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:28.600 the most humbling experiences that actually led to our decision 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:31.040 to write this book and to study this and to 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:33.240 really spend the time we have on it was that 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:36.680 when we overcame and I put that in quotes my 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:39.680 student loan debt, right, we overcame a lot of my issues. 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:42.440 We were able to do, like really jumpstart our adult 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:44.160 lives and do the things we wanted to do, buy 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:47.800 that house in the suburbs, have children, get married, all 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:50.040 that stuff. For a minute there, we thought we had 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:53.240 it all figured out. We thought we won that game, 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:57.960 and we thought that we were set, you know, and 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:02.160 then guess what happened. Life happened, and the next challenge came. 0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:05.120 Right, It's like what David Brooks calls the second mountain, Right, 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:07.919 It's yeah, it's that next it's that next hill to climb. 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:12.439 And I think that so many it's so easy to 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:16.040 focus on, especially like in a world of like self optimization, 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:19.600 and there's so many articles and books and experts that 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:22.240 come out here and say these, you know, do this 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:25.000 one thing and you've won do this one thing and 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:26.639 I can guarantee you this. 0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:29.520 Yeah, it's the survivorship bias type stuff we wanted. 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:33.960 Yeah, we wanted to show you that life is so 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:38.960 uncertain that we don't really know what's going to happen next. 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:41.560 None of us do. We want to help you prepare 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:43.080 for whatever happens next. 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:44.840 I want to dig in on the individual thing that 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:47.600 Doug was just hitting on. And actually, Heather, you said 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:50.840 at one point, not in this conversation, but it's something 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:54.240 you wrote. You said, too often financial advice treats couples 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:58.000 as a unit, but you're still an individual. And Doug 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:00.760 you just mentioned something really similar along those lines. And 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:04.119 how both people bringing something the table matters and financial 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:05.879 advisors who gloss over that and just deal with the 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:09.080 decision maker. You're actually gonna it's a mistake. You're stepping 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:12.239 on a rake. So why is that so important to 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:15.480 remember when we're discussing financial advice for couples, Like the 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:19.639 individual nature? Uh, two people coming together to you know, 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:20.560 as a as a unit. 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:22.959 Yeah, that's why the cover the books of end diagram right, 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:26.879 there are portions that are individually and you know, distinctly yours. 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:29.119 And then there's the area in which you're sharing together. 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:31.280 But let me drill down on that for just a 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:35.600 moment here. Again, your ability to play a team game 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:40.040 requires that you have perspective of your partner. It requires 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:43.280 that you're able to understand how they think and feel 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:46.680 about money, so that when you start to put your 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:49.840 ideas and the way that you feel and think about 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.360 money on the table, that you're just not, you know, 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:55.359 smashing your head against the wall and you're not getting 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:59.199 any progress here. It shapes the things you say, the 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:02.320 way you do things when you have that perspective. So 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:06.320 taking it a step back from there, you can't even 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:09.240 get to that point, as I mentioned previously, without first 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:12.760 understanding yourself and you know how you feel and think 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:16.400 about money. So it's that two step process to get 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.560 ultimately to a point where all right, we can share 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.639 in ideas because we have perspective of one another and 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:25.800 more importantly, an idea of where we come from. 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.720 And also looking forward. I think this is incredibly important 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:31.520 because one of the main goals of this book is 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:35.200 to find greater fairness and equity in the household, because 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:37.520 that's how we're going to find greater equity out in 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:41.840 the world is particularly for women. I think it's really 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:44.880 important to not be subsumed by your partner in your 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:48.520 career and your life and your goals and your dreams, 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:53.240 and so it is important to remind people that what 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:57.080 you want matters. What you want as an individual matters too, 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:02.000 and regardless of who is earning more income, right, that's 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:05.840 an incredibly important concept. So it's just as important one, yeah, 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:08.840 that we understand each other's past, but that we hold 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:11.800 onto those pieces of our dreams for our future that 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:14.320 truly matter to us. Because when we talk about not 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:18.639 only building fair or sustainable relationships, we're also talking about 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:22.199 holding onto those things that we each want. So, you know, 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:25.960 one of the questions that we asked we asked all 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:28.400