1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,080
Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel, and today I'm

2
00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,800
Speaker 1: asking the question can love survive a budget? With Doug

3
00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:28,120
Speaker 1: and Heather Bonaparte. So figuring out your money is tough

4
00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,080
Speaker 1: enough if you're flying solo. Doing it with your partner

5
00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,280
Speaker 1: ramps up the difficulty level because you're throwing in varied

6
00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,519
Speaker 1: money history, habits, and goals into the equation. It can

7
00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:39,960
Speaker 1: create a lot of friction. So my guests today they

8
00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,080
Speaker 1: have a lot of great advice for couples looking to

9
00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:44,600
Speaker 1: do better with their finances and to create a team

10
00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,760
Speaker 1: vibe with their partner. So if you looked up the

11
00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,839
Speaker 1: definition I think of power couple in the dictionary, you

12
00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,120
Speaker 1: might just see a picture of Doug and Heather Bonaparth

13
00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,040
Speaker 1: next to it. Doug has built his own successful financial

14
00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:01,000
Speaker 1: advisor firm while simultaneously tweeting hilarious memes. And Heather is

15
00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,800
Speaker 1: a former corporate attorney. She's the director of business affairs

16
00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,840
Speaker 1: for that firm, bona Fide Wealth, and they've written a

17
00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,920
Speaker 1: fabulous new book called Money Together. Doug and Heather, thank

18
00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:13,920
Speaker 1: you so much for joining me today on the podcast.

19
00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:15,360
Speaker 2: Well, thanks for having us.

20
00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:16,800
Speaker 3: We're so excited to be here.

21
00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,240
Speaker 1: It's going to be a lovely conversation. The first question

22
00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,040
Speaker 1: I have for anybody who comes on the show is

23
00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:24,640
Speaker 1: what do you like to splurge on? What's your craft

24
00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:26,800
Speaker 1: beer equivalent. I know you guys are being smart, you're

25
00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,360
Speaker 1: saving and investing for the future, but what are you

26
00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:31,320
Speaker 1: blowing money on in the meantime.

27
00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,240
Speaker 3: I like to splurge on, probably clothes and fashion. But

28
00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,559
Speaker 3: then on the family front, we've really like our kids

29
00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,840
Speaker 3: are now nine and six, and we've just aged into

30
00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,440
Speaker 3: like our vacation era. Like, we really didn't want to

31
00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:47,360
Speaker 3: spend a lot of money on vacations when the kids

32
00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,640
Speaker 3: were younger, because they one, they have no idea what's

33
00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,240
Speaker 3: going on. Two, it's a lot more work. It's more

34
00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,120
Speaker 3: like like just you know, just doing the family stuff

35
00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,680
Speaker 3: somewhere else. But now, like we all really enjoy it.

36
00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,480
Speaker 3: So I would say vacations are even more important than

37
00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:03,720
Speaker 3: probably anything else we're spending money on right now.

38
00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,440
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I'm aligned on the vacation side. This, This

39
00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:07,960
Speaker 2: is really where I'd like to spend the most money

40
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,960
Speaker 2: creating those experiences. So good job there, I'm being aligned.

41
00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,720
Speaker 2: He don't lie, No, No, I'm gonna get selfish with it.

42
00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,200
Speaker 2: I'll go with my Look, I'm a collector, a habitual

43
00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,960
Speaker 2: one at that. I'm that nineties kid that was collecting things,

44
00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,799
Speaker 2: you know, throughout my entire life, and right now what

45
00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,799
Speaker 2: I am collecting is tequila. Oh oh yeah, oh yeah?

46
00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,720
Speaker 2: So that that truly would be your craft beer equivalent there, right,

47
00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:34,200
Speaker 2: So tequila, I've been stuck in that space for at

48
00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,760
Speaker 2: least two or three years now, and I do not

49
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,880
Speaker 2: see myself getting out of it. I am a little

50
00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,960
Speaker 2: intimidated by how many bottles need to be consumed at

51
00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,880
Speaker 2: this point to actually like get through it. So good,

52
00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:46,600
Speaker 2: good job, Doug.

53
00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,919
Speaker 1: So okay, so what attracts you to tequila?

54
00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:50,320
Speaker 3: Are you?

55
00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,560
Speaker 1: And are you like going for high end fancy labels

56
00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:55,800
Speaker 1: and and are you I guess this is a question.

57
00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,560
Speaker 1: Do you ever adulterate it and make a margarita with

58
00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:00,720
Speaker 1: that tequila? Or is this no, this is like you

59
00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:01,519
Speaker 1: sip it by itself?

60
00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,359
Speaker 3: Now, now, Joel, are you sure we're going to get

61
00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,320
Speaker 3: to talk about We'll get there? Look here today, because

62
00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:08,919
Speaker 3: you just opened up a huge can of work.

63
00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:12,560
Speaker 2: The next fifteen minutes is brought to you by a

64
00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:17,399
Speaker 2: gove it. These are awesome questions. Yes, I will make

65
00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,440
Speaker 2: a margarita, and you obviously will use you know, a

66
00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,520
Speaker 2: certain type of tequila to do that. But the great

67
00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:24,920
Speaker 2: part about tequila is you don't need to spend a

68
00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,120
Speaker 2: whole ton of money to drink really good tequila. There

69
00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,120
Speaker 2: are thirty forty fifty dollars bottles that you can buy.

70
00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:36,640
Speaker 2: They're absolutely wonderful, but I am usually sipping it like

71
00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:41,000
Speaker 2: my blancos, probably more than anything else. Although aged you know,

72
00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,880
Speaker 2: Renisado's and the Niehos are wonderful too. We can talk

73
00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,840
Speaker 2: about this for hours and hours, but yeah, look, there

74
00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:48,520
Speaker 2: are some there are some bottles in there.

75
00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:49,920
Speaker 3: What's the most important thing.

76
00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,400
Speaker 2: The most important thing, guys, for anyone trying to drink

77
00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:57,440
Speaker 2: tequila is that it is additive free, right, three ingredients. Right,

78
00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,920
Speaker 2: It's water, yeast and cooked to god.

79
00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:02,560
Speaker 1: That is it? Okay? What about what about mescal?

80
00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:04,920
Speaker 2: I haven't gone down that road yet. Like I feel

81
00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,520
Speaker 2: like the bourbon drinker is to rye, you know, and

82
00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,160
Speaker 2: your Scotch drinkers go super pety like that is the

83
00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:15,960
Speaker 2: tequila drinker trying to elevate, you know, their experience into mescal.

84
00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,760
Speaker 2: I'm not a big smoky guy. Lots of appreciation for it.

85
00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,880
Speaker 2: Great in a cocktail if you want that smoky you know,

86
00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,159
Speaker 2: agave flavor, but not not what I'm sipping on. I'm

87
00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:26,960
Speaker 2: usual to be looking for a high proof or a

88
00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:27,600
Speaker 2: nice blanco.

89
00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,120
Speaker 1: Okay, good news, good, it's good to know. Yeah, let's

90
00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,279
Speaker 1: let's talk about couples of money, because I could ask

91
00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,240
Speaker 1: you more questions about tequila, but we'll stop here. Tell me.

92
00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,719
Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about your own relationship to money,

93
00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:40,880
Speaker 1: maybe individually, and then what it was like to bring

94
00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,000
Speaker 1: that history together when you got married. I think that's

95
00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,160
Speaker 1: often one of those things where you talk about a

96
00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,320
Speaker 1: lot of things as a couple pre marriage, and money

97
00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:51,920
Speaker 1: might be one of those things that doesn't get talked

98
00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:53,000
Speaker 1: about as much as it should.

99
00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:57,080
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I admittedly had a very unhealthy relationship with

100
00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,919
Speaker 3: money growing up. I'm an only child and grandchild on

101
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,480
Speaker 3: both sides of my family. My parents divorced right as

102
00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:08,960
Speaker 3: I entered my teenage years, and it really impacted just

103
00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:14,200
Speaker 3: my perception of not only wealth, but just of money

104
00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:18,359
Speaker 3: in general. A real picture of scarcity was painted for

105
00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,440
Speaker 3: me for a while there in those teenage years, and

106
00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:26,400
Speaker 3: also from my father's side of the family, who came

107
00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,080
Speaker 3: from wealth, and money was kind of viewed as a tool.

108
00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,880
Speaker 3: Money was used to buy loyalty, and to give money

109
00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,960
Speaker 3: was to show love, and to withhold money was to

110
00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,760
Speaker 3: withhold love. And those are some those are some deep

111
00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,760
Speaker 3: messages to carry into adulthood. You know. Pair that with

112
00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,839
Speaker 3: graduating law school in the midst of the Great Recession.

113
00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,120
Speaker 3: You know, I had chosen, you know, to go to

114
00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,400
Speaker 3: law school because it felt like a responsible thing to do.

115
00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,800
Speaker 3: It felt like my path to financial independence was to

116
00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,240
Speaker 3: earn as much money as I can in a high

117
00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:05,919
Speaker 3: paying career and kind of like search for that search

118
00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:10,120
Speaker 3: for that exit from those family structures, at least emotionally, right,

119
00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,559
Speaker 3: But that's not what happened. The decision kind of flew

120
00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:15,600
Speaker 3: back in my face, and I graduated in law school

121
00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,240
Speaker 3: with six figures of student loan debt and a ton

122
00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:24,080
Speaker 3: ton of shame, and so carrying all of those feelings

123
00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,640
Speaker 3: and money scripts and emotions and yeah, shame into our

124
00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:33,279
Speaker 3: adult relationship. You know, when I say adult relationship, I

125
00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,000
Speaker 3: talk about the time that Doug and I really began

126
00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,479
Speaker 3: to discuss marriage and settling down and having kids and

127
00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,200
Speaker 3: starting our adult lives together. I mean, we knew each

128
00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,159
Speaker 3: other long before that. But when you really start to

129
00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,560
Speaker 3: talk about coming together, merging your lives together, talking about

130
00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,880
Speaker 3: joint and shared goals, like you really have to start

131
00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,520
Speaker 3: to do the work to unpack some of this stuff.

132
00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,320
Speaker 1: Right, And when shame is there, it can be so difficult,

133
00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,680
Speaker 1: it can it can be an inhibitor to those conversations.

134
00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,719
Speaker 1: So I'm curious where that shame come from and maybe

135
00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,720
Speaker 1: came from, and then how that impacted your ability to

136
00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,280
Speaker 1: kind of merge finances and come up with a cohesive

137
00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:12,080
Speaker 1: strategy together.

138
00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:17,360
Speaker 3: Sure, you know, the shame came from feeling like choosing

139
00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:21,000
Speaker 3: an expensive law school. It was a huge mistake. It

140
00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:25,120
Speaker 3: was a huge financial regret for me, and I started

141
00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:30,160
Speaker 3: to feel like not only was I not worthy of success,

142
00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,680
Speaker 3: but I wasn't worthy of happiness, and that I was

143
00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:41,080
Speaker 3: in fact worthless. And you know, those feelings were reinforced

144
00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,119
Speaker 3: by the labor environment that I entered into. I spent

145
00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,200
Speaker 3: some time in private practice at a law firm. You know,

146
00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,960
Speaker 3: being a young woman in corporate law is difficult enough

147
00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,360
Speaker 3: as it is now. Tried doing it, you know, following

148
00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,480
Speaker 3: in the years of the Great Recession and being underpaid, overworked,

149
00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,680
Speaker 3: you know, all these messages together kind of sets you

150
00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,360
Speaker 3: up to not really being the most empowered around the

151
00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:06,560
Speaker 3: financial decisions that you've made. And I think that that's

152
00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,240
Speaker 3: one of the toughest things is looking back at that

153
00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,320
Speaker 3: time and being like, wow, I truly felt so stuck.

154
00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,640
Speaker 3: Had I really did not believe one, I didn't have

155
00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,600
Speaker 3: any control, any financial control at that time, like staring

156
00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,880
Speaker 3: at that giant student loan balance. But I also didn't

157
00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:27,520
Speaker 3: think I was worthy of making financial decisions. I really didn't.

158
00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:29,680
Speaker 3: I was like, well, you messed up. This is the

159
00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:31,600
Speaker 3: lot you made for yourself and you're going to pay

160
00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:33,160
Speaker 3: for it for the rest of your life. And that

161
00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,079
Speaker 3: sounds really heavy, but it really felt that heavy at

162
00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:36,440
Speaker 3: the time.

163
00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:38,840
Speaker 1: Doug, where were you coming from? And what's it like

164
00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,560
Speaker 1: to enter into a relationship with someone who's kind of

165
00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:42,840
Speaker 1: feeling all those things?

166
00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, Heather pointed out, we've been together for a very

167
00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,880
Speaker 2: long time. I mean, I'm here for everything. She said.

168
00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,520
Speaker 2: We met as freshmen in college when we were were

169
00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,440
Speaker 2: eighteen and nineteen, so I was along for the ride here.

170
00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:56,880
Speaker 2: And just give you a little bit of background as

171
00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,000
Speaker 2: far as where I was coming from. I was the

172
00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,480
Speaker 2: son and grandson of serial entrepreneurs. You know, there was

173
00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,160
Speaker 2: this lesson of always investing in yourself and you could

174
00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:08,600
Speaker 2: go out there and build something. I watched my dad

175
00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,680
Speaker 2: do it, I saw my grandfather do it, and that

176
00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,520
Speaker 2: was a really awesome thing to experience. My brother and

177
00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,440
Speaker 2: I started businesses of you know, fixing computers, you know,

178
00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,160
Speaker 2: selling things on eBay when it came around. We were

179
00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,120
Speaker 2: kind of born with the hustle and taught that that's

180
00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,040
Speaker 2: a good thing. And as much as there was a

181
00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,240
Speaker 2: lot of good parts of that, there was also some

182
00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:31,200
Speaker 2: bad parts. We learned valuable lessons, you know through you know,

183
00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,200
Speaker 2: what's like to overextend yourself, what happens when there's too

184
00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,120
Speaker 2: much risk on the table. Particularly through that, you know,

185
00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,360
Speaker 2: two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine period, as

186
00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,400
Speaker 2: I was working with my father, and I think a

187
00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:44,640
Speaker 2: lot of it also backfired on me and that, hey,

188
00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:46,600
Speaker 2: you know, you're going to just work in family business.

189
00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,160
Speaker 2: My father worked with his father, and therefore it was

190
00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,000
Speaker 2: kind of assumed I would work with my father, and

191
00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,120
Speaker 2: you know that that blinded a person from well what

192
00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,520
Speaker 2: do I really want? You know, all paths led me

193
00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,600
Speaker 2: to leave my family business and go to New York City,

194
00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,960
Speaker 2: to be with Heather and have us kind of figure

195
00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:05,880
Speaker 2: it out. And here we are in two thousand and

196
00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,560
Speaker 2: eight and nine, you know, her with multiple six figures

197
00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,880
Speaker 2: in student loan debt, me coming up to New York

198
00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:12,880
Speaker 2: figuring like, hey, well we'll figure out how to make

199
00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,719
Speaker 2: our lives work together. I go to business school and

200
00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,800
Speaker 2: take on another six figures in student loan debt because

201
00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,880
Speaker 2: at this point, like why not, you know, I was

202
00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,920
Speaker 2: very much committed to us, you know, taking these next

203
00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:25,839
Speaker 2: steps in our lives.

204
00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:26,800
Speaker 1: What's another one hundred k?

205
00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,079
Speaker 2: What's another one hundred k when she's got three hundred thousand?

206
00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,520
Speaker 3: You know? It's also a problem solver. I think that's

207
00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:35,880
Speaker 3: that's what he really gets at here, is that Doug

208
00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:41,000
Speaker 3: was someone who viewed problems as challenges to overcome, and

209
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,280
Speaker 3: I viewed it as like crippling. I didn't know how

210
00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,720
Speaker 3: to be nimble, but the background that he came from,

211
00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:48,440
Speaker 3: he only knew how to be nimble.

212
00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:50,640
Speaker 1: Right, So was that what was that like then? Was

213
00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,200
Speaker 1: that like a breath of fresh air for you, Heather?

214
00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:55,120
Speaker 1: Or was that like more debility?

215
00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,560
Speaker 3: It was difficult. Honestly, it was difficult because I felt like,

216
00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,240
Speaker 3: on one hand, he couldn't possibly understand. He also never

217
00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,800
Speaker 3: really worked in a corporate setting before, so this was

218
00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:07,719
Speaker 3: something that that was a point of friction for us

219
00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,280
Speaker 3: for many years. You know, when when he's never had

220
00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,760
Speaker 3: that experience, it's like, sure, you can approach you know,

221
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,199
Speaker 3: you can approach my my situation with with a bit

222
00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,559
Speaker 3: of naivete about like, oh, just go in and tell

223
00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:20,760
Speaker 3: the partner that you know, he's a jerk.

224
00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,840
Speaker 2: And that I think was less of think less of that,

225
00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,080
Speaker 2: and more back to the like I knew Heather had

226
00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,720
Speaker 2: done well in law school and had equipped herself with

227
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,160
Speaker 2: a you know, vast amount of knowledge that would serve

228
00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,000
Speaker 2: her well. And I think it's you know, short term

229
00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,800
Speaker 2: thinking versus long term thinking. That's not you know, the

230
00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,720
Speaker 2: entrepreneur thinks, you know, it plays long games, right, Everything

231
00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,760
Speaker 2: I was doing was going to be a slow and

232
00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,200
Speaker 2: long grind to get there. And that's not to say

233
00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,880
Speaker 2: Heather lacks, you know, the ability to think that way.

234
00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,840
Speaker 2: Is that when you're thrusted into the environment in which

235
00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,760
Speaker 2: she did, and you're standing down, staring down the barrel

236
00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,199
Speaker 2: of student loan debt of that size, it is extremely

237
00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,040
Speaker 2: difficult for me to say, hey, you've made a great

238
00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,280
Speaker 2: investment in yourself. It's going to take time to pan

239
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,520
Speaker 2: to pay off when you're carrying that shame and you're

240
00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,680
Speaker 2: carrying the regret of the decisions you made in that

241
00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,120
Speaker 2: three year period of time of going to law school

242
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:15,880
Speaker 2: and graduating in the recession.

243
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,480
Speaker 3: Well, a very a very intelligen CFP we interviewed for

244
00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:23,040
Speaker 3: the book had said that shame is not a funk.

245
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,400
Speaker 3: Shame is a fog. It's fear, obligation, and guilt, and

246
00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,800
Speaker 3: it's so sometimes blinding that you just cannot see more

247
00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:33,960
Speaker 3: than a foot in front of your face. And that

248
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,800
Speaker 3: truly was me, And that was the difference between Doug

249
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,960
Speaker 3: and I during that time. Yeah, sure he had that

250
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,800
Speaker 3: long term thinking, but I was My judgment was so

251
00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:44,760
Speaker 3: clouded by the fog of the shame that I was

252
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:46,440
Speaker 3: in that there was just no way for me to

253
00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:48,200
Speaker 3: see passed it for a while, but we did.

254
00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me if I'm wrong. My guess is that

255
00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:52,720
Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes, maybe Heather, it was hard to even put

256
00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:54,520
Speaker 1: your finger on the fact that you were feeling shame

257
00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,920
Speaker 1: like it was guiding a lot of your decision making

258
00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,400
Speaker 1: processes and was guiding some of those relational dynamics but

259
00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:01,760
Speaker 1: you're like, I can't. I can't call it shame. I

260
00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:03,280
Speaker 1: don't realize that's what it is. And I think that's

261
00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,160
Speaker 1: the unobserved reality that's directing a lot of people's lives,

262
00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:07,400
Speaker 1: especially how they handle money.

263
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,000
Speaker 3: I will tell you this, I had never used the

264
00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,320
Speaker 3: word shame to describe my mid to late twenties until

265
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,680
Speaker 3: I started interviewing experts for this book. And when somebody

266
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,240
Speaker 3: said shame to me, I started I started to cry.

267
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,080
Speaker 1: Experts, Yeah, and she shines a spotlight on it, and

268
00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:27,160
Speaker 1: you're like, that's what it was.

269
00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,760
Speaker 3: I still say it, and I wrote it in the book.

270
00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,960
Speaker 3: I said, when when they said this to me, the

271
00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,000
Speaker 3: shame washed over my body again.

272
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:42,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, Doug, I'm curious. You are a financial planner. How

273
00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,200
Speaker 1: much have you learned about the relational dynamics of money

274
00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,080
Speaker 1: as you've worked with clients, Because a lot of people

275
00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,760
Speaker 1: assume financial advisor. He's helped me pick the right funds

276
00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:54,640
Speaker 1: to me in. But you're so much more of a

277
00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,240
Speaker 1: coach in so many ways. What does that look like

278
00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:58,280
Speaker 1: and what have you learned from that?

279
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,600
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, it goes well beyond on just the investment piece, right,

280
00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:03,600
Speaker 2: you have so many areas that we focus on, from

281
00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,680
Speaker 2: cash management all the way through a state planning. But

282
00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:08,760
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, as much as you're

283
00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,160
Speaker 2: writing great financial plans and walking clients through it, you're

284
00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:14,160
Speaker 2: trying to connect to them on a human level and

285
00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,280
Speaker 2: figure out how you can help them make the best

286
00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,440
Speaker 2: decisions for themselves as humanly possible one and I got

287
00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,120
Speaker 2: to give credit to any couple that's coming to the

288
00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,160
Speaker 2: table of a financial professional to engage in planning. A

289
00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,080
Speaker 2: lot of the things we hope to accomplish in this

290
00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,920
Speaker 2: book get carried out through meeting with your advisor regularly,

291
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,200
Speaker 2: putting down a plan, and implementing the recommendations that are

292
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,560
Speaker 2: designed to help them get to the goals that they have.

293
00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,320
Speaker 2: But financial planning is not a cure all. When you

294
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:46,120
Speaker 2: have people coming in with a predisposition in their relationship

295
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,480
Speaker 2: or in more importantly, in themselves, they have yet to

296
00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:54,080
Speaker 2: discover their own identity with money, so they're incapable of

297
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,800
Speaker 2: working together with their partner to play the team game.

298
00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,280
Speaker 2: They haven't even done the individual rual sport yet. So

299
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,520
Speaker 2: I see that a lot in practice, and over twenty

300
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,680
Speaker 2: years I've seen it all right from couples who you

301
00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,040
Speaker 2: know you have the silent partner at the table who

302
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,600
Speaker 2: says nothing is distracted. Maybe they're on their phone and

303
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,680
Speaker 2: just they're not participating, and you, as a professional, are

304
00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,000
Speaker 2: really wondering why there's a lot of professionals who won't

305
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,280
Speaker 2: even touch that with a ten foot poll. As long

306
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,720
Speaker 2: as one person, as long as the decision maker is listening,

307
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,600
Speaker 2: they're going to continue, you know, going down that path,

308
00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,320
Speaker 2: and that will backfire later on in the client relationship,

309
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,720
Speaker 2: and more importantly, it will not create a team that

310
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,480
Speaker 2: is required to get to the joint goals that hopefully

311
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,960
Speaker 2: people have together all the way over to the positive sides,

312
00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,040
Speaker 2: where people are building up their ability to understand each

313
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:52,000
Speaker 2: other and sort out their pre existing feelings, therefore being

314
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,800
Speaker 2: able to talk about their joint goals and the things

315
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,320
Speaker 2: that they want for themselves and start playing the team

316
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,040
Speaker 2: game that will never end. That's the easy thing about

317
00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:05,480
Speaker 2: money together. Pun intended is that you don't get to

318
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,160
Speaker 2: win the game. You just get to play different versions

319
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,360
Speaker 2: of the game, maybe a different level, and they don't

320
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,960
Speaker 2: stop from literally birth to death. So figuring out how

321
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,400
Speaker 2: to play it is going to be extremely important if

322
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,000
Speaker 2: you want happiness, if you want fulfillment if you want

323
00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,520
Speaker 2: to feel like you have enough, which we definitely touch

324
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:23,120
Speaker 2: on in the book.

325
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:24,920
Speaker 3: Let me say this one thing. I think one of

326
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,600
Speaker 3: the most humbling experiences that actually led to our decision

327
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,040
Speaker 3: to write this book and to study this and to

328
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,240
Speaker 3: really spend the time we have on it was that

329
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,680
Speaker 3: when we overcame and I put that in quotes my

330
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,680
Speaker 3: student loan debt, right, we overcame a lot of my issues.

331
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,440
Speaker 3: We were able to do, like really jumpstart our adult

332
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:44,160
Speaker 3: lives and do the things we wanted to do, buy

333
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,800
Speaker 3: that house in the suburbs, have children, get married, all

334
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,040
Speaker 3: that stuff. For a minute there, we thought we had

335
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,240
Speaker 3: it all figured out. We thought we won that game,

336
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,960
Speaker 3: and we thought that we were set, you know, and

337
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,160
Speaker 3: then guess what happened. Life happened, and the next challenge came.

338
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,120
Speaker 1: Right, It's like what David Brooks calls the second mountain, Right,

339
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,919
Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's that next it's that next hill to climb.

340
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,439
Speaker 3: And I think that so many it's so easy to

341
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,040
Speaker 3: focus on, especially like in a world of like self optimization,

342
00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,600
Speaker 3: and there's so many articles and books and experts that

343
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,240
Speaker 3: come out here and say these, you know, do this

344
00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,000
Speaker 3: one thing and you've won do this one thing and

345
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:26,639
Speaker 3: I can guarantee you this.

346
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the survivorship bias type stuff we wanted.

347
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, we wanted to show you that life is so

348
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:38,960
Speaker 3: uncertain that we don't really know what's going to happen next.

349
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,560
Speaker 3: None of us do. We want to help you prepare

350
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,080
Speaker 3: for whatever happens next.

351
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:44,840
Speaker 1: I want to dig in on the individual thing that

352
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,600
Speaker 1: Doug was just hitting on. And actually, Heather, you said

353
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,840
Speaker 1: at one point, not in this conversation, but it's something

354
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,240
Speaker 1: you wrote. You said, too often financial advice treats couples

355
00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,000
Speaker 1: as a unit, but you're still an individual. And Doug

356
00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,760
Speaker 1: you just mentioned something really similar along those lines. And

357
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,119
Speaker 1: how both people bringing something the table matters and financial

358
00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:05,879
Speaker 1: advisors who gloss over that and just deal with the

359
00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,080
Speaker 1: decision maker. You're actually gonna it's a mistake. You're stepping

360
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,239
Speaker 1: on a rake. So why is that so important to

361
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,480
Speaker 1: remember when we're discussing financial advice for couples, Like the

362
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,639
Speaker 1: individual nature? Uh, two people coming together to you know,

363
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:20,560
Speaker 1: as a as a unit.

364
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:22,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why the cover the books of end diagram right,

365
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,879
Speaker 2: there are portions that are individually and you know, distinctly yours.

366
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,119
Speaker 2: And then there's the area in which you're sharing together.

367
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,280
Speaker 2: But let me drill down on that for just a

368
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,600
Speaker 2: moment here. Again, your ability to play a team game

369
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:40,040
Speaker 2: requires that you have perspective of your partner. It requires

370
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,280
Speaker 2: that you're able to understand how they think and feel

371
00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,680
Speaker 2: about money, so that when you start to put your

372
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,840
Speaker 2: ideas and the way that you feel and think about

373
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,360
Speaker 2: money on the table, that you're just not, you know,

374
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,359
Speaker 2: smashing your head against the wall and you're not getting

375
00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:59,199
Speaker 2: any progress here. It shapes the things you say, the

376
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,320
Speaker 2: way you do things when you have that perspective. So

377
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,320
Speaker 2: taking it a step back from there, you can't even

378
00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,240
Speaker 2: get to that point, as I mentioned previously, without first

379
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,760
Speaker 2: understanding yourself and you know how you feel and think

380
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,400
Speaker 2: about money. So it's that two step process to get

381
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,560
Speaker 2: ultimately to a point where all right, we can share

382
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,639
Speaker 2: in ideas because we have perspective of one another and

383
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,800
Speaker 2: more importantly, an idea of where we come from.

384
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,720
Speaker 3: And also looking forward. I think this is incredibly important

385
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:31,520
Speaker 3: because one of the main goals of this book is

386
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:35,200
Speaker 3: to find greater fairness and equity in the household, because

387
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,520
Speaker 3: that's how we're going to find greater equity out in

388
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,840
Speaker 3: the world is particularly for women. I think it's really

389
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,880
Speaker 3: important to not be subsumed by your partner in your

390
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,520
Speaker 3: career and your life and your goals and your dreams,

391
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:53,240
Speaker 3: and so it is important to remind people that what

392
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:57,080
Speaker 3: you want matters. What you want as an individual matters too,

393
00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:02,000
Speaker 3: and regardless of who is earning more income, right, that's

394
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,840
Speaker 3: an incredibly important concept. So it's just as important one, yeah,

395
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,840
Speaker 3: that we understand each other's past, but that we hold

396
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,800
Speaker 3: onto those pieces of our dreams for our future that

397
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,320
Speaker 3: truly matter to us. Because when we talk about not

398
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:18,639
Speaker 3: only building fair or sustainable relationships, we're also talking about

399
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,199
Speaker 3: holding onto those things that we each want. So, you know,

400
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,960
Speaker 3: one of the questions that we asked we asked all

401
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,400
Speaker 3: the couples that we interviewed for the book, was do

402
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,440
Speaker 3: you have enough? And we wanted them to answer individually,

403
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,920
Speaker 3: not together, and it was very interesting to hear those answers.

404
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,520
Speaker 1: I'm sure you did you have some like one person

405
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,359
Speaker 1: in the relationship say yes and the other ones like no,

406
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:45,800
Speaker 1: and so like they just they have no mind meld

407
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:46,440
Speaker 1: on that, okay.

408
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,640
Speaker 2: And I had differing answers when someone flipped it back

409
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:51,480
Speaker 2: around on us.

410
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 3: And why that's so important is because it helps you

411
00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:59,000
Speaker 3: then gain some insight into where your partner's at with

412
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,520
Speaker 3: something with with such an important concept as your own

413
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,320
Speaker 3: personal contentment with your lot in life. Like for Doug

414
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 3: spent almost twenty years to reach this point in his

415
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:15,280
Speaker 3: career that he is so content with and proud of

416
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,400
Speaker 3: where he's at, And I spent the first ten years

417
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,320
Speaker 3: of my career kind of like just digging myself out

418
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 3: of this hole of shame. I'm not there yet. This

419
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,879
Speaker 3: book and this project and this work is bringing me

420
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,880
Speaker 3: closer to my enough than I've ever have but us

421
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 3: answering that question, and Doug knows how important this is

422
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 3: to me, but only because we've had those conversations.

423
00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 2: Like I mentioned, perspective of your partner, me having that

424
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,200
Speaker 2: perspective of Heather shows me that while I may be

425
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,960
Speaker 2: content with what I have done in my career, and

426
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 2: I know I'll continue to grow and I've done things

427
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 2: that I've dreamt of doing, this is all great stuff?

428
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:57,399
Speaker 2: Is it really great? If she, my partner, is not

429
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,120
Speaker 2: getting close to feeling the same way I do? And

430
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 2: that perspective right, and that understanding has reshaped how I

431
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 2: view my business, how I view time outside of my business,

432
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,359
Speaker 2: as a father, as her partner. There is now a

433
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 2: different picture than there was in the first seventeen years

434
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,840
Speaker 2: of doing this, and now we are together here envisioning

435
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 2: something that brings us again together around a shared vision.

436
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 2: Look how much individual play and identity got us to

437
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:38,440
Speaker 2: needed to be dealt with, uncovered, workshopped, thought out, therapy,

438
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 2: you know, whether it's therapy or just conversations, whatever you

439
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 2: need to do ultimately to get to a point where

440
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 2: now we're playing a different team game. So we didn't

441
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:47,919
Speaker 2: you know, we thought we had to figure it out

442
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 2: for a little while. Life happened, you know, man plans,

443
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 2: God laughs, that's the expression. And here we are, you know,

444
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,479
Speaker 2: in that next phase. Sure it's in the form of

445
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,160
Speaker 2: maybe writing a book, but joining each other in business

446
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,880
Speaker 2: and thinking about you know, the vacations that we want

447
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 2: to take our children on to celebrate the fruits of

448
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 2: our labor, all of these things.

449
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: Are there any introspective questions that you think individuals should

450
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,880
Speaker 1: be asking and that couples then should come back together

451
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: and ask each other to kind of dig into some

452
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 1: of these issues that maybe have been or remained unexplored.

453
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,640
Speaker 3: Well, yes, we do pose it's a ten questions at

454
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 3: the end of each section of our book that will

455
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,439
Speaker 3: really and some of the questions again, like back to

456
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,640
Speaker 3: this idea, there as much self work as they are

457
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 3: couple's work. And so we even suggest to readers of

458
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 3: the book that it's really up to you whether you

459
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 3: want to be answering these questions for yourself and then

460
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 3: you bring them to your partner or whether you want

461
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,239
Speaker 3: to sit there oh Prah Winfrey style and interview one

462
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 3: another and try and elicit those answers from one another.

463
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 3: It really depends on personal preference. But yes, there's an

464
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 3: endless number of questions because communication, above all else is

465
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 3: what you really need to reach this higher understanding of

466
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 3: one another.

467
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 2: I think our goal is that as you read the book,

468
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,360
Speaker 2: you will find yourself in it. You will find yourself

469
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 2: or you will find your partner, and you will be

470
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,239
Speaker 2: compelled to bring that sentence, that paragraph, that chapter, that

471
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 2: section to another person and say this is me, this

472
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: is you, and before you know it, you're automatically talking

473
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 2: about that and then you'll probably read the question and say, hey,

474
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 2: I asked for these based on the stories that we

475
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 2: are at based on the conversations that we're elicited from

476
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 2: a particular section, chapter, or sentence that you came across.

477
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 2: And I think that's one of the most beautiful parts

478
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 2: of this book is finding yourself and finding your partner

479
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 2: in it, so you can have those conversations that you

480
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 2: may be struggling to have or didn't know you even

481
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 2: needed to have. They definitely need to take place in

482
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,640
Speaker 2: order for you to find that fairness that everyone deserves

483
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 2: to have because it leads to happiness, and probably one

484
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,360
Speaker 2: of the number one things we should be looking for

485
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 2: in our lives is to be happy.

486
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 1: I love you said that, because I think ignorance can

487
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: feel like bliss, but it's actually better and you will

488
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: gain more happiness going through maybe some of these hurdles.

489
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: I've got more questions I want to get to with you.

490
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: I want to talk about conflicts, and I want to

491
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: get to some practical questions too about how this actually

492
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: plays out in reality, with like, Okay, how do you

493
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 1: combine lives when one of the partners coming into the

494
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 1: relationship with significant amounts of debt? So we'll talk about

495
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: stuff like that. Right after this break, we're back still

496
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: talking with Doug and Heather Bond depart. We're talking about

497
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 1: love and budgeting and whether the two can co exist

498
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: and really what it looks like to have a healthy

499
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,919
Speaker 1: relationship on the money front and how that involves so

500
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: much more than just money. And Heather, we talked about

501
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 1: your student loan debt. You share a personal student loan

502
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: refinance story in the book, And I remember talking to

503
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: a friend who said he had just gotten married and

504
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: he was like, yeah, my wife's student loan debt. Like really,

505
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 1: soon after they gotten married, she's got to pay off

506
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 1: her student loan debt. And I was surprised by that,

507
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: and I really realized every couple has their own relational dynamics.

508
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: But when I got married, it was like, what's yours

509
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 1: is mind, what's mine is yours debt and assets included.

510
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: So do you think married folks should be combining assets

511
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 1: and debts? Is that outdated? Look what's the approach?

512
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 3: I think it's you know, I'm going to preface this

513
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 3: by saying personal preference, because there's lots of reasons why

514
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 3: people may choose to keep these things separate that include

515
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 3: family dynamics, family wealth, Like, there can be a ton

516
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 3: of reasons why it could be a second marriage. So

517
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 3: I don't really believe in blanket in a blanket statements

518
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 3: to say everyone should do this or ever one should

519
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 3: do that for us. And I will also say I

520
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 3: think it gets incredibly sticky to say your debt versus

521
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 3: my debt. Right to your point, when you choose to

522
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 3: combine your life together, how are you practically how is

523
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 3: that practically going to work? Right? Let's say I have

524
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 3: a student loan repay, I have a student loan debt

525
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 3: schedule where I'm paying thousands of dollars a month towards

526
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,679
Speaker 3: my student loan debt. How then are we going to

527
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 3: figure out a way where my income also helps to

528
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 3: support our family and our and our dreams and our

529
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,679
Speaker 3: hopes and our lifestyle. So like, I don't truly understand

530
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 3: how that works long term, And don't even get me

531
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 3: started about what happens when you add kids into the mix,

532
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 3: like how are you going to continue to itemize? Like

533
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 3: are you going to say.

534
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,479
Speaker 2: Two thirds of that of my child soccer practice? I'm

535
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 2: going to be right right, So you.

536
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 3: Know, I generally, if when you were first getting together,

537
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 3: when you're first cohabitating, when you're first getting married, you

538
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 3: feel like you're not ready to do it all at once. Okay,

539
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 3: that's fine. But I do truly believe that somewhere, at

540
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 3: some point, you are going to have to assume some

541
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 3: responsibility for what your partner is responsible for when it

542
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 3: comes to debt. I do believe that. I mean, look

543
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 3: for us, maybe because of maybe because of the size

544
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 3: of the debt, but I think also because of the

545
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 3: shame that I was carrying with the debt. Doug knew.

546
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 3: And when Doug made that gesture of saying, yeah, I

547
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 3: will be the co signer of the refinancing of your

548
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 3: student loan debt, it meant so much more than the

549
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 3: logistics of who you know, it.

550
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: Was of it right.

551
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 3: It meant so much more than who's going to be

552
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 3: paying for what. It meant I trust you, I believe

553
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 3: in you. Your problems are my problems. And that was

554
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 3: literally a bigger gesture. And I say this in the book.

555
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 3: It was a It was a more sweeping, romantic gesture

556
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 3: in our relationship than the way he proposed me. Truly,

557
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 3: it was that of a deal.

558
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:03,239
Speaker 2: I believe it.

559
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: It's it's like the love, the action of love, instead

560
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: of just like the lips are right.

561
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: Right, Everything about that's correct. I'm very matter of fact

562
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 2: about this, right. I've for a number of times already

563
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 2: talked about this being a team game, and I'll spare

564
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 2: us the sports analogies and just talk about how you know,

565
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 2: if you're looking for the most effective and efficient way

566
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 2: to go about your financial life, you're going to want

567
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 2: to play that team game. It's you know, it's a collection, right,

568
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 2: It's the collective household unit here. Notwithstanding the things Heather

569
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 2: said that may exist for very personal or particular reasons,

570
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 2: but the mechanics of it, the practicality of it, you know,

571
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 2: it's better to start sharing, whether it's setting up your

572
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 2: joint accounts and getting into the actual mechanics of how

573
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 2: you do this. I do believe, you know, having independence

574
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 2: and autonomy is a part of that too. Still have

575
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 2: an individual checking account, you know, your retirement accounts can't

576
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 2: be jointly held, So there is individuality when it comes

577
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 2: to managing your money, when it comes to your investments.

578
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 2: But I'm a real stickler over this thing. You're married

579
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 2: or you're a partnership, it's typically and should be for life.

580
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get you know, any particular religion

581
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 2: involved in this. As much as I'm saying that is

582
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 2: the commitment you're making to one another, and you're.

583
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 3: That is the aspirational goal. I don't know anyone that

584
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 3: goes into marriage hoping that or you know, just accepting

585
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 3: that someday all and how will they end?

586
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 2: I have a question, right, I have a question of well,

587
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 2: what are you doing here if you're not willing to

588
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 2: go down this road? And it doesn't mean, you know,

589
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 2: from the day you get married or get engaged, you're

590
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 2: all in start sharing, you know, right down the middle.

591
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 2: It means you are going to go on that pathway

592
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 2: and you are going to work your way to a

593
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 2: shared financial household where hopefully you're capable of managing it

594
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 2: as a team and not as two individuals who live

595
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 2: in their own financial silos but happen to do stuff together.

596
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: The ultimate reality of life, I think is trade offs. Right.

597
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: Everyone can't get what they want all the time, and

598
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: money is this finite resource. So there is there Like

599
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: the best place we were talking earlier about people like

600
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: how each couple needs to bring what they want individually

601
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: into the relationship, but sacrifices need to be made to

602
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: achieve mutual goals that you have together. So there's a conflict,

603
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of tension there in this is

604
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: the goal I want to achieve, this is the goal

605
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: you want to achieve. This is kind of what we

606
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: want to do together. How do you? How does that like?

607
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: What's the fallout from those conversations?

608
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 3: I'll say my favorite line, but be first, I think

609
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 3: it's really important to think about this. Often times, almost

610
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 3: all the time, an investment in one thing is a

611
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 3: sacrifice in another. And when we talk about goals, individual goals,

612
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 3: in order for me to reach one of my individual goals,

613
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 3: Doug may have to sacrifice something, even if that's something

614
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 3: is just time.

615
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: And that goes for non monetary goals too. Yeah. Right,

616
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: so like trying to run a marathon and that is

617
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: a pain in the butt for my whole family. So

618
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: there's all there are all these things that go into

619
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: this is my goal. Nobody else in my family really

620
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: cares that much about it, but like they have to

621
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: make sacrifices and then vice versa.

622
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 3: That is a perfect example, right, It's they're not just

623
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 3: career driven ambitions. Look look at if a partner says,

624
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 3: after becoming a new parent, I would really like to

625
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 3: downshift from the workforce for a little while, and I

626
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 3: would like to spend more time at home with our kids.

627
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 3: An investment in that time, on one hand, is a sacrifice,

628
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 3: is a financial sacrifice on the other I think so

629
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 3: it's really important to kind of see your lives as

630
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 3: that fluid and that there will be a time for you,

631
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 3: and there will be a time for me, and there

632
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 3: will be a time for us all. And when it

633
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 3: comes to kind of like knowing how you've struck the

634
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 3: right balance. I mean, look, I negotiated for a living.

635
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 3: I still do, but I used to, you know, find

636
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 3: myself sitting at tables negotiating eight figure settlements and the

637
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 3: best compromises leave everyone a little bit uncomfortable.

638
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: That's just the truth the okay, talk about the power

639
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: dynamics that enter into that though, because oftentimes the higher

640
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: earning spouse feels like whether they say it or not,

641
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: and it often feels like that to the lower earning spouse,

642
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: to that person gets to call the shots or they

643
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: are in some way the ultimate decider because they have

644
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: more economic skin in the game. So what does that

645
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: look like in practicality when one person feels like they

646
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: holds more cards.

647
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you first need to recognize just how

648
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 2: much that's actually conditioned behavior, whether that's through societal systems

649
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 2: or the way that you were raised, generational differences. There

650
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 2: are so many ways that you can contribute to your

651
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 2: family that are far greater than who's making the paycheck

652
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 2: and what those financial contributions are. And I'll say this

653
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 2: till the cows come home. The person that is earning

654
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 2: four or five, six times more or all the income.

655
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 2: If someone's choosing to support the family outside of earning money,

656
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: that person would likely be unable to do what they're

657
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 2: doing without the contributions of that other person. So it's

658
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 2: a very silly construct, right to really, you know, bite

659
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 2: down hard on when you think about it in that way.

660
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 2: And Heather, you know, one of the biggest parts of

661
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 2: this book is how people contribute far greater than what

662
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 2: they bring in. And I really want to give this

663
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 2: space to Heather to talk more about just how important

664
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 2: contribution is from a non monetary standpoint.

665
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 3: To Joe's point, we found ourselves in that position. You know,

666
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 3: I was at one point in time the breadwinner in

667
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 3: our relationship, and I held down a corporate job and

668
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 3: some pretty great benefits for a long time so that

669
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 3: Doug could take risks in his career and try and

670
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 3: build his firm and his and his business and and

671
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 3: you know, build his thought leadership in the financial planning space.

672
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 3: But at a certain point, like his career took off

673
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 3: and suddenly he was making three times the amount of

674
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 3: money as I was. And that happened to coincide with

675
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 3: us having our children and COVID a pandemic, you know,

676
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 3: and a pandemic started when our kids were eleven months

677
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 3: and four years old.

678
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: And that can change something as simple as like who's

679
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: expected to put dinner on the table?

680
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 3: That is right?

681
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 2: Right, that is right.

682
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 3: And it was very it felt at the time like

683
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 3: it was very easy for us all to decide whose

684
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 3: time mattered more. Yes, it was an extreme example because

685
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 3: that was a quote unquote unprecedented time, like so many

686
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:42,439
Speaker 3: others that millennials have been through. But it was what

687
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,720
Speaker 3: we did. And as one of the experts said about

688
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 3: me in the book, that I was complicit in my

689
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 3: own oppression. But it's true. It was just as much

690
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 3: me saying, well, you need more time to work than

691
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 3: I do, even though I was still a corporate lawyer,

692
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 3: even though I was still helping Doug out with the business,

693
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 3: even though I was still doing ninety percent of of

694
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 3: what the kids needed during that time. So, like, I

695
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 3: don't want to paint such a simple picture that it's

696
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 3: just so easy to undo these scripts because sometimes they

697
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,919
Speaker 3: just kind of happen to you and you know.

698
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 2: You've been you're correct, But the conditioning happens over not

699
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 2: just years, but often decades to where it's involuntary. That

700
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 2: and of.

701
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 3: Course we don't want to fail to state the obvious

702
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 3: that it is important that the person that's bringing in

703
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 3: income into the household has the time they need to

704
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 3: do their job. Yes, that is.

705
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: True, otherwise the whole house of cards collapses. Right the

706
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: pay teke's got to keep.

707
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 3: Coming, sure, but I think that it's just incredibly important

708
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 3: to view time as a currency as well. And until

709
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 3: you view it that way, and until that person, even

710
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 3: if you are the breadwinner, you need to understand that

711
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 3: that an investment meant in your time and ability to

712
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 3: pursue your career to the best of your abilities likely

713
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 3: involves and inherit sacrifice from your spouse and maybe from

714
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 3: the rest of your family, and being mindful of that

715
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 3: fact makes you show up more in the moments that

716
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 3: you're not working and create that fairness and kind of

717
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 3: maintain that sense of equity.

718
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 2: And I think it's very important to point out that

719
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:30,280
Speaker 2: fairness does not mean equal right. This is a balance

720
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 2: that two people will figure out how to strike in

721
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,720
Speaker 2: terms of what works for their lives and what makes

722
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,399
Speaker 2: both people say I can deal with this, we can

723
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,720
Speaker 2: play ball with this, because if you don't, the consequence

724
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 2: is resentment. And there is no better way to erode

725
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,359
Speaker 2: a relationship, whether it's built on love or anything else

726
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 2: than by resenting the other person in that relationship. So

727
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 2: typically you know only a few things happen when you

728
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 2: get to that breaking point. You either watch your relationship

729
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 2: fall apart, and many do because they've completely and utterly

730
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 2: failed to figure it out by communicating and figuring out

731
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 2: what kind of balance needs to exist, or that is

732
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 2: the call to action in which both people will come together,

733
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 2: sit down and realize something has to give. And if

734
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 2: you love each other and you care about each other,

735
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 2: you're gonna work like hell to work it out and

736
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: to make that happen. And Heather and I obviously love

737
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 2: each other very much, and got to a point where

738
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 2: she said, Doug, I'm starting to resent you know what's

739
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 2: going on here, and we really need to think about

740
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 2: how we fix this. And I heard her loud and clear,

741
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 2: and we sat down.

742
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: You have to speak up, right, You have to have

743
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: the conversation makes me think of I was just to

744
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: throw myself under the bus. I was waking up five

745
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: minutes before the kids woke up, and I was coming

746
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: upstairs and with my bathrobe, get in my coffee, and like,

747
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: my wife is already making the lunches and preparing the breakfast,

748
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 1: and I'm sitting there like the dude in the Big Lebowski,

749
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: like an idiot, just groggy and yawning. And She's like,

750
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: I think, like, I'm really starting to get upset that

751
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: you're not like in the game in the morning, and

752
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: so can you figure out a way to wake up

753
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 1: earlier whatever you need to do to be in the

754
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: game when the kids are up, And that I had

755
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,439
Speaker 1: listened to her, and I had to change my whole

756
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 1: whole morning routine for that, and in the best way possible, right,

757
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: I was happy to do it, but like she had

758
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: to bring it up I probably should have realized before

759
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: she had to bring it up. But it's one of

760
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,280
Speaker 1: those things where you can't just resent in the background.

761
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 1: You have to have a conversation about it.

762
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 3: Here's and here's an important point too. You might think

763
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 3: that you're not communicating, but every you are communicating right.

764
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 3: Your spouse may Yes, you should speak up and communicate

765
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 3: in a constructive way right at a time and place

766
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,479
Speaker 3: that is like low right, that is conducive to having

767
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 3: these conference stations. But an important point to note is

768
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 3: that a lot of times, like we communicate in all

769
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 3: sorts of ways, we communicate in passive, aggressive ways. You know,

770
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 3: I thought that I wasn't saying anything about the way

771
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,240
Speaker 3: that I felt, But the truth was my action spoke loudly,

772
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 3: I was snapping at everyone all the time. I was

773
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 3: huffing and puffing around the house for like over a

774
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 3: year during this whole time. And what I could have

775
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 3: just said what I was feeling, which was, Hey, I'm drowning,

776
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,240
Speaker 3: this isn't working, and i feel like I'm not getting

777
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 3: the time I need for myself in my career.

778
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: And lots of times you think you are communicating it right,

779
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: and you are in some ways, but the partner is

780
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 1: like doesn't register with me, Like I just get that

781
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: you're not in a good mood, but I don't really

782
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: understand what's happening. And so you actually have to use

783
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 1: You have to figure out and find the words to

784
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: communicate what it is that you're feeling so that they

785
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 1: can understand.

786
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 3: And that's why time and place are so important. Like

787
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 3: it's not the right time when you're reacting, when you're angry,

788
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 3: that it's not the time to have that conversation. That's

789
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 3: why like carving out the time, not just for money dates,

790
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 3: which are you know, we're huge proponents of the money dates,

791
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,399
Speaker 3: but find a time that you're not reacting and you're

792
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 3: not upset, to sit down and say, hey, I've been

793
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 3: feeling this way a lot lately, and I really can

794
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 3: we have a couple of minutes to talk about what

795
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 3: we need to do here to make this better.

796
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: So what are the best practices? Because you even in

797
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: my intro I said something about the vibes, like you

798
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 1: do want people to have good vibes with their money,

799
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: and vibes is like such a hot word these days,

800
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 1: but what does it look like to have good vibes?

801
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: In your relationship when it comes to money and what

802
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,439
Speaker 1: sort of ingredients are necessary to get there?

803
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 3: Oh well again, like we love that money date. We

804
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 3: love the idea of setting a time and a place

805
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 3: and an activity that you both enjoy and working the

806
00:41:55,680 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 3: money conversation into that thing you both enjoy, because then

807
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 3: you can also start by talking about the things that

808
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 3: are positive in your lives. Like it's not just well

809
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 3: we overspends. Let's scrutinize the budget and.

810
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,240
Speaker 2: See, don't start with the negative stuff.

811
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 3: You want to start with the good stuff.

812
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 2: Say like, what are your wins?

813
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 3: What are your wins? What are our wins from the

814
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:17,839
Speaker 3: last quarter?

815
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 2: Would you do great this week? I think there's a

816
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 2: lot here and it's little tiny adjustments are turning things

817
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 2: just you know, upside down on their head. Everyone wants

818
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 2: to sit down and think about, Hey, where where's the

819
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,319
Speaker 2: room for improvement? Talk about what you did right? You know,

820
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 2: that's a great way to get to the things you

821
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 2: want to improve on. So things that will make you

822
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 2: feel good upfront. Same when it comes to figuring out

823
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 2: how to meet your partner where they're at and learning

824
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 2: how they want to communicate and how they want to

825
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 2: do that I can assure you. For most guys that

826
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 2: want to get their wives involved, and what's in front

827
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 2: of them is a budget or a cash flow statement

828
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,399
Speaker 2: or a net worth you know that is probably not

829
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 2: going to work. And I'm speaking from experience.

830
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 3: There might just not be the place to start. You

831
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,399
Speaker 3: want to meet people where they are the find the

832
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 3: pathway to the interest that works for you. If you

833
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 3: have a newsletter that you're really enjoying, if you'r's a

834
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 3: podcast or a financial creator that you like to follow,

835
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 3: like that is that is an on ramp to better conversations.

836
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be zero to one hundred. And also,

837
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 3: like I know Doug always, Doug always tells clients and

838
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:28,399
Speaker 3: couples like find a positive shared goal. You guys can

839
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,959
Speaker 3: st say hey, Like a great example would be, hey,

840
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 3: do you want to maybe go on spring break with

841
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 3: the kids next year? Yeah? I do? All right, Well,

842
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 3: why don't we take a look at what we need

843
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 3: to do every month between now and then to make

844
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,720
Speaker 3: that happen? And yeah, that might require changing some behavior.

845
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 3: It's casting forward decisions that you can make instead of

846
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 3: looking backward at what was wrong. We haven't been saving

847
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 3: any money, so we're never going to get to go

848
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 3: on vacation.

849
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: You know, that stupid purchase you made last week.

850
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 2: It really sets back think about what you need to

851
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 2: get buy into the conversation. I know I tease Heather

852
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 2: with let's do this family thing because we both know

853
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 2: we like that. I'm going to get her to the

854
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 2: table when I say, hey, can we look over some

855
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 2: numbers here? Maybe that's the things she doesn't like to

856
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 2: do as much. You'll say, yeah, let's figure this out. Look,

857
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 2: there's a couple of nights we're going out with friends.

858
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 2: We just saw them. We don't need to do this dinner. Hey,

859
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 2: we were thinking about going to this concert, but if

860
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 2: it meant no to that, so we could go to

861
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,800
Speaker 2: a great you know, all inclusive with the family, it

862
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 2: becomes fairly effortless to start making those sacrifices or shifting

863
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 2: those things around. Now you're playing a team game. Everyone's

864
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,879
Speaker 2: on the same page, everyone's going for the same goal.

865
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 3: And to your point, the vibes are set. When you

866
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 3: start to reap the benefits of that work, that would

867
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 3: you start to feel, okay, we are so much more

868
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 3: aligned on the things we want. Then you find yourself

869
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 3: reacting less in the day to day to the little things,

870
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 3: because you really are having the conversations about the bigger things.

871
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: So the good vibes are like setting the tone, yea,

872
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 1: and they're actually created a better environment to make good

873
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:03,280
Speaker 1: money decisions together.

874
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 2: Here here's the biggest piece of it all. And I

875
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 2: don't want anyone listening to you know, if you're pumped

876
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 2: listeners like we're gonna go do that awesome, Yes, get

877
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 2: going on that for sure, but I want you to

878
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 2: remember that this requires consistency and discipline. You are likely,

879
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 2: you are more than likely if you haven't been in

880
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 2: the practice of this, going to have your first experience

881
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 2: not meet the expectation you have in your head of

882
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 2: like we're gonna have this awesome conversation. I'm gonna do

883
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 2: it differently. And you know what you're like, all right,

884
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,800
Speaker 2: that that really didn't go you know according to the plan.

885
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 2: That's because you did it one time, right, Nobody goes

886
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 2: to the gym one time after not working out for

887
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 2: six months or however long.

888
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: And is actually I would, but then I don't be

889
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 1: very sore, but you.

890
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 2: Won't be in the best shape of your life. Just

891
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,720
Speaker 2: like anything that requires whether it be investing or anything

892
00:45:55,200 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 2: really filed under self care health and otherwise. It requires consistency.

893
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 2: So if you're doing this on a quarterly basis, give

894
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 2: yourself some grace. That's four cracks in a year, right,

895
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 2: that's only four two years is eight three twelve. We're

896
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 2: discounting by force here. So until such time, it took us,

897
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of cracks at this to get

898
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 2: into the rhythm and finding things at work for us.

899
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 3: And we still have to do the work. We are

900
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 3: Our finances are are a unique situation. We both work

901
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 3: in the family business now right, It's it's not your

902
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 3: typical setup. So we continue to work and I have

903
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 3: even more questions now than I did at the start.

904
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 3: But that's good. It's not bad. It's curiosity and a

905
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 3: desire to keep keep my hands in it more and

906
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 3: more every month.

907
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 2: Right, go from macro to micro as you do this, right,

908
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 2: the macro being, Hey, let's go over what a P

909
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 2: and L is. Let's take a look at how the

910
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:48,840
Speaker 2: you know, the mechanics of a business work and relate

911
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 2: to you know, our family expenses. And then question be like,

912
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 2: all right, so now that we got this under our belt,

913
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 2: why are we doing this, or how can we improve this?

914
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 2: Or should we hire someone to do this? They become

915
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 2: business decisions that dovetail into personal decisions. So yeah, you know,

916
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 2: that's kind of the life of entrepreneurs and business builders.

917
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 2: But you know, even if it's a little easier because

918
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 2: you've got two W two employees or one W two employee,

919
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 2: you still have to put in the reps to get to,

920
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,919
Speaker 2: you know, running a smooth operation around these money dates

921
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 2: and conversations. And then you start to fill in between

922
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 2: those money dates with actual better communication, better habits, and

923
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,320
Speaker 2: better behaviors that when you do get to you're meeting,

924
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 2: things run more fluid, smoothly, and expectations are met more

925
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 2: than they're not.

926
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: I love it all right, I got a few more

927
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 1: rapid question couples of money topics I want to hit

928
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: up with you guys, so we'll keep talking about this

929
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 1: in just second with Doug and Heather. Right after this.

930
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 2: Are back still.

931
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 1: Talking with Doug and Heather about love and budgeting. And

932
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 1: I want to ask you guys real quick, A lot

933
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 1: of folks are hunting on bigger decisions like marriage, having

934
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: kids until they achieve more economic security.

935
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 2: Is that a good or bad thing, what a great question?

936
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 2: Like I can hear my grandfather in the back of

937
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 2: my mind saying like love finds a way, Doug, you know.

938
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 2: And also Grandpa didn't understand that love doesn't solve for

939
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 2: you know, six figures and student loan debt. So I

940
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 2: can really appreciate folks wanting to set up their lives.

941
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 2: I know Heather and I spent a lot of time

942
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 2: setting up our careers and lives before we decided to

943
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 2: get married. So while I have an appreciation for that,

944
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 2: I think striking a balance between you know, you can

945
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 2: get caught in this trap of oh, we'll do it

946
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 2: next year, We'll do it next year. Before you know it,

947
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:41,399
Speaker 2: you've waited too long.

948
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 3: I'll never forget I had a friend who I used

949
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 3: to work with a colleague who said that she wasn't

950
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 3: going to get pregnant until she used up all of

951
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 3: her star Ward points. I'll never forget that. But people

952
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 3: come up with these things. It's too far, no, But

953
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 3: people come up with these things, right like I'll do

954
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:00,080
Speaker 3: We'll do what they will do. And I think, like,

955
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 3: on one hand, yes, right, like, I don't want to

956
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 3: not acknowledge how incredibly difficult look, we're in like a

957
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 3: childcare crisis in this country. I could go on all

958
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 3: twenty minute ran about that. Yeah, but I think there

959
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 3: is a piece of this, especially when we talk about

960
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 3: having kids, that I don't know if you're ever really

961
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 3: going to feel ready.

962
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

963
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 3: So I think that that is a that is a

964
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 3: difficult like a slippery slope. When you're waiting for that

965
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 3: permission to proceed in any really big thing in your life,

966
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 3: you might be waiting too long.

967
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 2: Right Like anyone who's quote unquote figured it out, whether

968
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 2: it be in their marriage, their love life, or you know, companionship,

969
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 2: whatever it may be, will tell you one of the

970
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 2: best things that has happened to them financially has been

971
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 2: getting married. We're starting a family. I remember a colleague,

972
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 2: biggest motivator. Yeah, I remember a colleague of mine, you know,

973
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,280
Speaker 2: older gentleman, successful practice. Put his hand on my shoulders

974
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 2: that congratulations, Doug. This will be the best thing that

975
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 2: ever happened to your business is having a child, is

976
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 2: having your first daughter. And again, and I will con

977
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 2: firm that it was that motivator. It was something that

978
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 2: just makes for.

979
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 3: That is a that is a whole I think that

980
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:11,840
Speaker 3: there there's some, there's some gendered there's some uh without

981
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 3: a gendered scripts in that. But again, like I said, Joel,

982
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 3: you opened up work.

983
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, well this whole topic is a cannabis Yeah, which

984
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 1: which is what makes it so fascinating? A couple of

985
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:24,839
Speaker 1: rapid fire questions? Who should pay on the first date?

986
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 1: Is it the person who's got the higher paying job?

987
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 2: I like to split on the first date? Make no split,

988
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 2: no presumption here between today's world of split and being

989
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 2: a gentleman and just offering it up. And you know,

990
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 2: that's really kind of too completely.

991
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 3: We eve been together too long to answer that question.

992
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 2: The kids do.

993
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 3: If it was me, I probably, yeah, I wouldn't mind

994
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 3: a chivalrous, chivalrous man offering to pay for the first date.

995
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's more important the budget of the vibes. We

996
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 1: talked about the vibes just a second ago, But is yeah,

997
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:58,399
Speaker 1: which one? Which one holds more weight?

998
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 3: I think the vibes because when we talk talk about vibes,

999
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 3: we're talking about mutual respect, we're talking about love. We're

1000
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 3: talking about feeling seen in each other's behaviors.

1001
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,839
Speaker 2: And yeah, and number numbers don't have feelings. Vibes are

1002
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 2: all feelings, and the feelings really kind of dictate behaviors here,

1003
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 2: so we've got to get the emotional side down.

1004
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 1: That's the hard What's one word you would use to

1005
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: describe your money style as a couple.

1006
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 2: Fluid? Yeah, fluid. I like it. We're I think, pretty

1007
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 2: synced up and pretty much on the same page to

1008
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 2: the point where we can we can spend freely. We

1009
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:36,359
Speaker 2: have our eye on the prize and what our big

1010
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 2: goals are. We know when to check in on a

1011
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 2: purchase and when not to. I think we just are

1012
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 2: able to navigate our financial lives with a lot of fluidness. Fluidit.

1013
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: Last question, last question. You've been successful in work, in marriage,

1014
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 1: you've got kids. What do you What do you tell

1015
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:54,839
Speaker 1: people about how you've been able to make it work?

1016
00:51:55,600 --> 00:52:00,720
Speaker 3: I tell everyone that it's about making room for one another,

1017
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 3: making room for everything, making not just not just our

1018
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:08,320
Speaker 3: ambitions and our careers, making room for each other's personalities

1019
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 3: and not trying to dim the light of the other

1020
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 3: person or of our kids.

1021
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 1: Dang, that's a good way to end. This has been

1022
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: such a lovely conversation. Thank you so much for joining me.

1023
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,359
Speaker 1: Where can my audience, where can have money listeners find

1024
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,240
Speaker 1: out more about your awesome new book.

1025
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 3: Well, you can visit our book website, which is Do

1026
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 3: Moneytogether dot com. We also write a weekly couples and

1027
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 3: money newsletter called The Joint Account, which you can find

1028
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 3: by googling the Joint Account or just looking up Joint

1029
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:40,800
Speaker 3: Account dot com.

1030
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 2: I wonder interested in the firm. It's bonafide wealth dot com.

1031
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 2: But google social media it will take you to all

1032
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 2: of these places and more.

1033
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:49,720
Speaker 1: And so all the show notes up on the website

1034
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 1: at how to money dot com. Which so thank you

1035
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: guys for joining me. I really appreciate it.

1036
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Jill, thanks Jaul.

1037
00:52:55,600 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, that was a really fun conversation and it

1038
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 1: took some unexpected turns and I didn't realize that at

1039
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 1: the end of it. I might also agree that vibes

1040
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,879
Speaker 1: are more important than a budget, but my goodness, Heather

1041
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: and Doug make a compelling case for that, and I

1042
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 1: think I'm sold. Like, I think it's true that the

1043
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 1: money part is really important, but if you working on

1044
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:32,399
Speaker 1: the relational aspect and creating good vibes even around those

1045
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 1: money discussions is going to be crucial to be able

1046
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 1: to making the progress that you want to see in

1047
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 1: your family's money life. And man, so many big takeaways

1048
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 1: I think I could go with after this conversation. I

1049
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 1: loved what Heather said there towards the end, an investment

1050
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 1: in one thing is a sacrifice in another. So the

1051
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 1: trade offs thing is real. It is the ultimate reality

1052
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:00,800
Speaker 1: in life. And you as a couple, there are some seasons.

1053
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:03,800
Speaker 1: I remember talking to someone else about couples of money

1054
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: not too long ago, and he talked about seasonality, how

1055
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 1: maybe this five years is the season to pour into

1056
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 1: my career, and then five years down the road, the

1057
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 1: tables are going to be turned, and maybe we moved

1058
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 1: to another city from my job the thing that I

1059
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 1: want to accomplish and you've got to figure out what

1060
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 1: that looks like specifically in your own life and in

1061
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 1: your own relationship. But I think that's going to be

1062
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 1: true on a money and on a non money aspect

1063
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:35,879
Speaker 1: when it comes to relational stuff that sometimes, like when

1064
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 1: my wife was in grad school and starting her budding career,

1065
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 1: I am more than willing to take a step back

1066
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 1: to help her flourish because man, for so many years

1067
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 1: the opposite was true, and she really took it on

1068
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 1: the chin to make sure that I could launch this

1069
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:58,479
Speaker 1: podcast with Matt and that we had a really good

1070
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 1: chance to succeed and to build this thing. And so

1071
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:06,759
Speaker 1: now I have a little more freedom and flexibility, and

1072
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 1: so I can do the same for her and be

1073
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 1: there for her so that she can really has a

1074
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 1: chance to succeed in this career that she's starting out on.

1075
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: So what is that going to look like for you,

1076
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 1: for your spouse or your partner. Those are really important

1077
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:25,239
Speaker 1: discussions to have. I think it's also important, like right

1078
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: at the end, another thing the Heather was saying that

1079
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 1: making room for one another such an important part of

1080
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 1: a successful partnership and for your personality, for your different

1081
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 1: goals and dreams. I think sometimes it's really easy to

1082
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 1: shoot down. Well, Okay, I get that's your goal, not mine,

1083
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:49,600
Speaker 1: so I'm not really interested. But the dreams that your

1084
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 1: partner has matter too, And actually it can be so

1085
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:56,960
Speaker 1: satisfying and fulfilling to play a part in helping them

1086
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:00,400
Speaker 1: achieve those bigger goals, those things they really want to

1087
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 1: accomplish too, even if it's not initially the thing that

1088
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 1: you're jazzed about or wanting to work towards. Together each

1089
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 1: of you is going to have individual and separate goals too,

1090
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 1: so not all of those goals need to or will

1091
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 1: overlap or be goals that each one of you holds.

1092
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:20,240
Speaker 1: So good luck in having those conversations, and my goodness,

1093
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 1: this book from Dug and Heather Money Together, will I

1094
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 1: think be a big help in ushering in some of

1095
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:31,840
Speaker 1: those conversations, prodding you to think a little bit differently

1096
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:36,799
Speaker 1: about how you handle money as a couple, and so

1097
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:40,359
Speaker 1: if you're looking for a place to start, and some

1098
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 1: non dogmatic advice that gets the ball rolling and does

1099
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:48,320
Speaker 1: give you some thoughts about kind of specific ways to

1100
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:51,760
Speaker 1: come together as a couple and handle money, but also

1101
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 1: just some relational prompts to do some of the work.

1102
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:58,240
Speaker 1: I think this is a great book to start. I

1103
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:02,399
Speaker 1: was pleasantly surprise I was reading this book about how

1104
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 1: much how helpful it was given maybe some of the

1105
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 1: content that is out there, and we talked about this

1106
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 1: before we started recording, how some of the couples in

1107
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:12,560
Speaker 1: Money content can be a little crusty, a little old.

1108
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:14,800
Speaker 1: This one feels like it's a book for the moment,

1109
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 1: So I hope you go out there and pick it up.

1110
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:19,240
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy it. You can find links to

1111
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 1: it up on the website at howtomoney dot com. Thank you,

1112
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 1: as always for listening. Hope to see you back here

1113
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 1: on Friday for a fresh Friday Flight episode. Until next time,

1114
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 1: best friend Out.