1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome to Stuff 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: I Never told you production, I hurtrat you. And welcome 3 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: to registered psychologist, writer, researcher, and host of the podcast 4 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: Other People's Problems, Doctor Hillary McBride. Thank you so much 5 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: for joining us. 6 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 2: Oh I'm so excited. 7 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 3: I can tell already we're gonna have so much fun 8 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 3: talking about some really hard stuff. 9 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 2: That's our show. Pretty much. 10 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: Before we get into that, though, could you introduce yourself 11 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 1: to our audience. 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 4: Oh? 13 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's always such a tricky question for me, like 14 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 3: what side of myself do I show you? But as 15 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 3: you mentioned, I'm a psychologist, so I'm really interested in people, 16 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 3: in people's minds. And I think that's because I feel 17 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 3: kind of like a little bit of a mystery to 18 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 3: myself sometimes. And I'm also I really deeply believe in 19 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 3: the experience of curiosity as a way of meeting the world. 20 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 3: So I'm curious. I like people, I wonder what does 21 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 3: it mean to be human? All of that filters through 22 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 3: my work as a researcher, therapist, you know, podcast host, writer, psychologist. 23 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 2: Yes, there you go. 24 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have done quite a lot. Can you 25 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 1: tell us how you've got into this field. 26 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 3: Oh okay, So I laugh because it's not always what 27 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 3: people expect to hear me say when I say I'm 28 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 3: a psychologist, because I think it had some really therapy. 29 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 3: I think I had some very poor mental health care. 30 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 3: And also I have therapists parents, and like the language 31 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 3: of mental health and the discourse around like our mysteries 32 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 3: in our world was always a part of my growing up. 33 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 3: And so I think the mix of feeling like I 34 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 3: knew it could be better, like there's got to be 35 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 3: better for people than the things that I got in 36 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 3: mental health treatment, and also this like deep appreciation for 37 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 3: the mystery of our yeah, the inner landscapes. So yeah, 38 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 3: I think that there's like there's a mix of that. 39 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 3: And it was really on the back of eating disorder 40 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 3: treatment and recovery that I, you know, don't recommend always, 41 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 3: but disagreed with my treatment team's recommendations to go back 42 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 3: to treatment again and instead went to grad school, which 43 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 3: is a plot twist, And yeah, really fell in love 44 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 3: with the ability to change the actual quality of our 45 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 3: lives through research through relationship. Like I have a colleague 46 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 3: who says, don't get mad get data, which is I mean, 47 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 3: also get mad, but I love the idea of, you know, 48 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 3: getting research that really can change the way that it 49 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 3: feels to be us and in our bodies. And so 50 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 3: I'm really passionate about evidence based, you know, data shaping interventions, 51 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 3: and that's that's really driven me into my introt around 52 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 3: trauma work and embodyment and psychedelic psychotherapy and now kind 53 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 3: of some of more of my emerging research around spiritual 54 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 3: trauma and and the ways that we are hurting. Let 55 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 3: me tell you there's a lot of hurt that's happening. 56 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 2: Okay, I'm not gonna lie. 57 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 5: My heart is racing because I'm so excited to talk 58 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 5: with you. And it's one of those moments when you 59 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 5: meet someone for the first time and then you're like, 60 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 5: oh my god, you have so much we have so 61 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 5: much in common. 62 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 2: I want to talk to you about this. I want 63 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 2: to talk to you about this, and this is gonna 64 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 2: I'm going to overtalk you. 65 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 5: So I'm trying to calm down because I'm so excited 66 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 5: about this conversation. 67 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: I think we do that. 68 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 5: Definitely want to put this here about content warning, because 69 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 5: we are going to talk about loss. We're going to 70 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 5: talk about pregnancy, We're going to talk about so many 71 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 5: things that when it comes like in conversation about therapy 72 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 5: and trauma work especially, and we've I don't know if 73 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 5: you know this yet, Hillary, but our show with Annie 74 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 5: and I began because we wanted to come on here 75 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 5: and talk about the me too movement, how it affected us, 76 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 5: and how therapy and trigger warnings are still so important 77 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 5: and why is relevant in conversations that it's not just 78 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 5: a niche thing. 79 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 2: Wow, So you are the legend story. 80 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 5: Yes, I snuck in here because I was like, I 81 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 5: want to talk about trauma. Look, I'm very excited to 82 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 5: write a conversation. 83 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 2: I'm so ready. 84 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 5: But of course, because in all of this, among our 85 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 5: commonalities is that you are a podcast host. 86 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 2: So can you tell us about your podcast? 87 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 3: I would love to. I would love nothing more than 88 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 3: to tell you. So I'm imagining when you're thinking about 89 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 3: is other people's problems? 90 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 2: Is that correct? Yeah? 91 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 3: So I was a innocent, naive. I think I made 92 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 3: him in a doctoral student at that time, and I 93 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 3: don't know how it happens. Someone gave my phone number 94 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 3: to a Emmy winning journalist, Jodie Martinsen. 95 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 2: So I don't know how we got connected. 96 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 3: I actually should go back and ask her about it, 97 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 3: but she reached out to me because she had had 98 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 3: this idea as someone who's crafting stories and investigating the 99 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 3: world through the lens of journalism, was like, wait a second, 100 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 3: therapy in actuality is a lot different the way it's 101 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 3: portrayed in media than the way that people talk about it. 102 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 3: We have these tropes of the therapists who kind of 103 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 3: sits back and is taking their notes and really like 104 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 3: judgmentally looking over the top of their glasses at someone 105 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:32,239 Speaker 3: and then they dispense this you know, perfectly timed insight 106 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 3: that also helps the plot of the show along, right. 107 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 2: This is kind of the way that it is in 108 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:37,119 Speaker 2: TV and media. 109 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 3: She was like, oh, this is this is really different 110 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 3: in real life than it's being portrayed. And so the 111 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 3: idea came about to put mikes in therapy sessions with 112 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 3: clients consent and then you know, turn it into something 113 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 3: that people who weren't in the room could then really 114 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 3: benefit from. And the principle behind this, I think is 115 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 3: vicarious learning and by care healing, Like we talk about 116 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 3: vicarious trauma in the trauma world, that we can kind 117 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 3: of like catch trauma in a way as we're you know, 118 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 3: bumping up against people in their stories and bearing witness 119 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 3: the pain that happens in the world around us. But 120 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 3: we can also heal vicariously too. We can listen to 121 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 3: people's learning and insights and journeys of transformation and get 122 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 3: something ourselves feel us alone. So the idea is to 123 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 3: turn therapy sessions into podcast episodes, and we've done that 124 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 3: for four seasons. We've done that over the course of 125 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 3: my doctoral degree and then beyond, you know, my work 126 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 3: has really changed, does all of us do right? Like 127 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 3: who we are five years ago, ten years ago is 128 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 3: really different than who we are now. And one of 129 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 3: the things that's become important for me in my clinical 130 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 3: work and academic research is psychedelic psychotherapy. And when you're 131 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 3: talking about things that people are talking about but are 132 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 3: not hearing or like don't actually have well represented, that 133 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 3: feels like a you know, there's like some some flashing 134 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 3: lights that go off in my mind, Like this is 135 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 3: another thing that we need to bring people into to 136 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 3: kind of demystify. So the idea for season five was 137 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 3: to put microphones in sessions of psychedelic psychotherapy with patients 138 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 3: and then including a session of my own where I'm 139 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 3: the patient and as a way of really showing people like, hey, 140 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 3: it could look like this, or this is kind of 141 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 3: what it sounds like or here's what it might feel like, 142 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 3: both to give people some education and information about what's 143 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 3: going on kind of behind the scenes and the mystery 144 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 3: of it all. But then there's also this other kind 145 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 3: of like there's this agenda that I have that I 146 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 3: think there's a lot of maybe unskilled is a generous word, 147 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 3: like an unskilled psychedelic psychotherapy that's happening where people don't 148 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 3: actually know how to work with trauma but are getting 149 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:47,559 Speaker 3: into really deep water, both as the person who's sitting 150 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 3: and the person who's experiencing the medicine work. 151 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 2: So my other aim was. 152 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 3: Like, hey, guys, it could be like this, Like you 153 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 3: could have somebody who kind of knows what they're doing, 154 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 3: and here's something to look for. So maybe creating a 155 00:07:58,000 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 3: benchmark or a standard in a way for the kind 156 00:07:59,920 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 3: of quality of care that we get people. So Season 157 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 3: five of other people's problems is people doing psychedelics, me 158 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 3: doing therapy. You get to hear it into the wild, mysterious, 159 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 3: beautiful world of people's minds as they interact with hallucinogenic 160 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 3: substances and get to heal in the process. 161 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: It's great when someone gives us an answer that touches 162 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: on so many other points we want to talk about later. 163 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: I just teeing you up really nice. Okay, you are 164 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 2: for sure. 165 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: One of the other ways we overlap is back when 166 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: we Samantha and I did start with our trauma mini series, 167 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: we also did therapy and released a podcast of our 168 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: therapy sessions. 169 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 4: Each Oh my gosh, think so much overlap and right, yes, 170 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 4: but it was the saying of that same desire of 171 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 4: like wanting to destigmatize it, maybe make it less intimidating, 172 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 4: because I think a lot of people don't really know what. 173 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: To expect outside of those movie tropes or perhaps a 174 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,199 Speaker 1: bad experience. And I have to say, I'd never heard 175 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: of using psychedelics in a therapeutic setting. This was new 176 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: to me. So can you kind of explain how how 177 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: that plays out? If I was somebody who was like 178 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: I want to get this or I think this might 179 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: help me, how would I how would it happen? 180 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 3: Okay, So the answer to that question varies state to state, 181 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 3: country to country, province to province, and so I can't 182 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 3: actually give you a definitive answer or a pathway. But 183 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 3: what I can tell you is that in BC, which 184 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 3: is the province in Canada that I live in, there 185 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 3: are certain pathways depending on what your presenting concerns are. 186 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 3: So if you come to someone you say, hey, I've 187 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 3: got you know, I've got cancer, I'm dying, I'm feeling 188 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 3: really anxious about end of life, we would take one pathway. 189 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 3: We would say, hey, we're going to put in an 190 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 3: application to the Government of Canada. We're going to make 191 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 3: sure that this is all about board. We've got a 192 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 3: doctor who's ready to prescribe for you, We've got a 193 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 3: therapist who's got a license. 194 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 2: Here we go. 195 00:09:57,920 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 3: We're going to like, we're going to take this, We're 196 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 3: going to take this next step above ground legally to 197 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 3: help you with this. And then there are other pathways 198 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 3: that perhaps have less gate keeping to them, like treatment 199 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 3: resistant oppression or eating disorders addiction complex PTSD. I mean, 200 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 3: there's so many other presenting concerns. But you could go 201 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 3: to your doctor, if your doctor's familiar with this work, 202 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 3: or a doctor who does this work, and get an assessment. 203 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 3: And maybe a psychological assessment an intake, and then we 204 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 3: could get you into a clinic and you could get 205 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 3: aketamine treatment or a cannabis treatment. In a clinical trial, 206 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 3: maybe you'd get MDMA or LSD, or depending on if 207 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 3: you were leaving the country, maybe you would have ayahuasca 208 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 3: or a boga or I have a game. So there's 209 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 3: like lots of different medicines that people can use depending 210 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 3: on the pathway that they want to take. There's lots 211 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 3: of underground pathways to take for people, which includes a 212 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 3: lot of risk, but sometimes it includes access to treatment 213 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 3: that otherwise people can't get. And then there's above ground. 214 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,719 Speaker 3: There's legal right there's things that are regulated and kind 215 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 3: of under the purview of clinical and medical guidelines. So 216 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 3: it really depends on where you are what you're getting 217 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 3: treatment for. But usually there's somebody involved who ideally knows 218 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 3: a lot about the kind of thing that you're wanting 219 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 3: treatment for and a lot about the kind of medicine 220 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 3: that you're using, and they have a really good set 221 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 3: of skills around how to work with you should you 222 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 3: re experience your trauma during the medicine, and they know 223 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 3: how to support you after with the what can feel 224 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 3: like the earth shakingness of getting access to stuff that 225 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 3: has been buried for a long time. Because one of 226 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 3: the things that's really powerful about psychedelic work is that 227 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 3: I think if you do it really well, you go 228 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 3: into the things that are hardest. Sometimes you get new 229 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 3: insight and space from it, but actually your body is 230 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 3: re entering the things that have been really difficult for 231 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 3: you to enter in ordinary states of consciousness, and you 232 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 3: can imagine understandably that would leave up and like maybe 233 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 3: on the other side of it feeling really like they survived, 234 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 3: like they're relieved it's over. They got through, but also like, 235 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 3: holy moly, that was a lot, right that that thing 236 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 3: that I buried for so long is here. Oh and 237 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 3: I've integrated it, and oh wow, I faced it head 238 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 3: on and I survived. 239 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 2: But that's really big. 240 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,839 Speaker 3: Like integration on the other side and looking at it 241 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 3: through the lens of attachment work is essential, and not 242 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 3: a lot of people out there are doing that. So 243 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 3: ideally you have someone who knows understands attachment, trauma, integration, 244 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:34,959 Speaker 3: somatic work working with the body, and you know is 245 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 3: kind of on top of risks and benefits and has 246 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 3: lots of skill in that area. 247 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 5: Wow, there's a lot in that you just said, Like 248 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 5: this conversation, we could talk about the demonizing of these 249 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 5: types of psychedelics, and especially in the US, you know, 250 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 5: we have a lot of things that we have to 251 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 5: power through because of the whole level of you know, 252 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 5: everything the war gets drug. You know, there's so much 253 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 5: to be said, but also an understanding that yes, there's 254 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,959 Speaker 5: a responsibility in using these types of treatment and how 255 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 5: beneficial it can be. But also it can be like 256 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 5: if you have the bad players, You're like, you know, 257 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 5: there's so much to this conversation, and obviously you're you're 258 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 5: so good at like putting this in a professional conversation, 259 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 5: because I want to be like, yeah, f them people 260 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 5: who are not even listening to the benefit, you know, 261 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:22,959 Speaker 5: like I really want to be angry. I'm an angry person. 262 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 5: But in general, that conversation about the layout of the 263 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 5: benefits and how it can be helpful if people are 264 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 5: willing to look at the depth of it, and again 265 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 5: the along lines of like, yeah, you need to understand trauma, 266 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 5: you need to understand attachment, which is something that's so 267 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 5: kind of new and regular conversations, you know, and like 268 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 5: everyday conversations people like attachment and I'm like, yeah, but 269 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 5: do you know what you're do you know what you're 270 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,559 Speaker 5: talking about? Because there's this level of depth. And I 271 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 5: say this as a you know, someone who worked with 272 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 5: reactive attachment this, so are understanding that and trying to 273 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 5: have that conversation with people. But again, because we only 274 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 5: have a short amount of time going back, can you 275 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 5: for today, right, can you talk about how you got 276 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 5: into this specific branch of therapy and why you thought 277 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 5: it was so useful. 278 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 279 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:12,559 Speaker 3: So there's you know, there's the ways that our professional 280 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 3: interests are always shaped by our lived realities. I'm sure 281 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 3: you've heard the expression researches mesearch, And I can think 282 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 3: about my interest in trauma as being like more felt 283 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 3: at first than I understood why. Like when I think 284 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 3: about psychedelic work for trauma in particular, and kind of 285 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 3: that was really my gateway into the benefits of psychedelic psychotherapy. 286 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 3: I think back to how drawn I was to trauma 287 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 3: work before I ever had really unpacked my own trauma history. 288 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 3: And it's amazing how our bodies kind of move us 289 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 3: towards something in a way that maybe it doesn't really 290 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 3: make sense to our conscious awareness or our mind or 291 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 3: our narrative. But we're like, I feel like this is 292 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 3: so I have to keep watching the data that's coming 293 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 3: out around this. So I was drawn to trauma before 294 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 3: I understood it a trauma history. Was drawn to psychedelics 295 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 3: before I thought I ever would do psychedelics. And it 296 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 3: was because, you know, as an academic, as somebody who's 297 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 3: paying attention to the research literature in the field of traumatology, 298 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 3: I am always scouring. 299 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 2: The you know, the clinical literature. 300 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 3: Like what is the best treatment, what do we do, 301 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 3: what recommendations do I make when I'm giving someone a diagnosis? 302 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 3: What are the ways that I can actually be at 303 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 3: the forefront of what we know about how people can heal? 304 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 3: And why why the treatments that were offering people aren't 305 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 3: working very well? And so I was paying attention to 306 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 3: the research literature and seeing, you know, all the clinical 307 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 3: trials coming out related to psychedelic psychotherapy and PTSD, particularly 308 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 3: from MAPS like the Maps Clinical Trials. And I had 309 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 3: colleagues who were working in the MAPS clinical trials as 310 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 3: psychiatrists or psychologists or therapists. And then it kind of 311 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 3: became clear through an unfortunate series of events in my 312 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 3: own life that sounds like, isn't that the name of 313 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 3: a children's book? Just to apply named children's book, They're 314 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 3: not about my own lived trauma, about some very different things. 315 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 3: I had a life threatening experience in a car accident, 316 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 3: and you know, it was February twenty nineteen, and I 317 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 3: did not think I was going to walk away from that, 318 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 3: and I did, and my rehab process started and my 319 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 3: I was doing intensive trauma processing therapy and using all 320 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 3: of the best treatments that I knew. And at this point, 321 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 3: I think I was like a I was in my 322 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 3: residency as a doctoral student, so I was most of 323 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 3: the way through my doctoral training and had specialized in trauma, 324 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 3: and so like I knew what to try, I knew 325 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 3: who to go to. Compared to the average citizen, I 326 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 3: was like hooked up right considering what's out there in 327 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 3: terms of medications and treatment, and knew what to ask for, 328 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 3: knew what was Evan's face, And it just like wasn't 329 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 3: really moving the needle for me. Like I could get 330 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 3: in a car, are I could drive, But really it 331 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 3: was so bad at that point, like my trauma symptoms 332 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 3: if my partner and I were going to watch a movie. 333 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 3: He would watch the movie first to make sure there 334 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 3: was no scenes involving cars, and then I would watch 335 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 3: it right like it was so acute that I was just, 336 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 3: you know, really stirred up and really terrified a lot 337 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 3: of the time. And I saw the research literature of 338 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 3: OT psychedelics and I thought, Okay, like, however scary that is, 339 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 3: it has to be better than what it feels like 340 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 3: to live right now. And because I knew people and 341 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 3: I knew ways of getting access to safe treatment, I 342 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 3: decided to take the risk. And what happened on the 343 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 3: other side of that I couldn't have predicted. And I 344 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 3: don't want to sell it, like I feel kind of 345 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 3: like a snake oil salesman, and I'm like, and then 346 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,199 Speaker 3: my trauma symptoms were gone, poof, they disappeared. But the 347 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 3: reality is like, that is what happened, and that isn't 348 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 3: the case for everybody. Isn't something we could guarantee. Sometimes 349 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 3: people actually get more access to their trauma symptoms on 350 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 3: the other side of the work because they get connected 351 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 3: to the place of the terror, or they have memories 352 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 3: that they didn't have before. Right, So it's not always 353 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 3: a guarantee that it's going to be like that. But 354 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 3: I went from a PTSD diagnosis one day to having 355 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 3: a medicine session and the next day and from that 356 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 3: point on not meeting any diagnostic criteria, no flashbacks, safe, 357 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 3: no hypervigilance driving, watching movies with car or accidents in them. 358 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 2: Like it was. 359 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 3: It was kind of miraculous. And I remember thinking, this 360 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 3: is the thing, This is the thing that everybody's putting 361 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 3: behind like closed doors, Like this is the thing that 362 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 3: I've been told was going to make my brain fry 363 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,360 Speaker 3: like an egg in a pan, you know, like all 364 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 3: of the you know, the anti drug propaganda, which, like 365 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 3: I was that's why I waited so long, is because 366 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 3: I really believed it. I was like, I am going 367 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 3: to become psychotic. I'm going to have psychotics spectrum disorders 368 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 3: on the other side of this, so of course I'm 369 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 3: not going to do it. And then I did it, 370 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 3: and I was like more connected to myself than I'd 371 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 3: ever been and felt safer. 372 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 2: So there was. 373 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 3: That, and then, you know, it's been interesting doing this 374 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 3: work with people over the last number of years, and 375 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 3: now I'm a faculty member at the Psychedelics Somatic Institute, 376 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 3: and I trained clinicians, and I have a training program 377 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 3: that I run with a colleague of mind. We call 378 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 3: it Catalyst, where we specialize in working with attachment and 379 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 3: somatic work and ketymine in particular to train clinicians because 380 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 3: we feel so strongly about giving people good, like good 381 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 3: skills to do this work. And life keeps happening, right like, 382 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 3: just because you're trauma specialist doesn't mean that everything feels 383 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 3: safe in your body for the rest of your life. 384 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 3: And so I had a series of medical events that 385 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 3: happened a year and a half ago at this point 386 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 3: and found that on the other side of them that 387 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 3: processing the trauma, processing the charge through psychedelics was exactly what. 388 00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:58,199 Speaker 2: I wanted to do. 389 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 3: And that's what you hear in in my episode of 390 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 3: season five of Other People's Problems, where you can hear 391 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 3: me digging into my own kind of more recent work. 392 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: This is a pretty at least for a lot of us, 393 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 1: it feels like pretty new and seeing the research coming out, 394 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: I know that there's a history that a lot of 395 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: us don't know that you get into and podcasts, but 396 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 1: uh yeah, you also talk about in the first episode 397 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 1: about some of the big scientific and ethical questions that 398 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: we still have because it's new. Yeah, can you share 399 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 1: some of what those are? 400 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 3: Well, one, we don't really understand how consciousness works, so 401 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 3: it's pretty wild that we're kind of messing with it 402 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 3: a little bit, Like where is your mind? 403 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 2: Nobody? 404 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 3: Sure, like probably in your body somewhere. And also like 405 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 3: between us as people, like it's definitely interpersonal phenomena, but 406 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 3: how does the mind work? And then how do we 407 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 3: alter consciousness? Like we have some guesses we can talk 408 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 3: about the serotonin, you know, receptors in the brain, but like, wow, 409 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 3: there's a lot of mystery to being human. So there's that, right, 410 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 3: And then there's also I think the access to treatment, 411 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 3: like the legal versus ethical conundrum that we're in because 412 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 3: we have good evidence that psychedelics for certain presenting concerns 413 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 3: is like a frontline treatment and yet it may be 414 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 3: that that's illegal still, so WHOA what do we do 415 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 3: with this tension that our academic research is showing us 416 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 3: this could change someone's life, but the government is saying no, 417 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 3: you can't have it, Or what do we do about 418 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 3: the fact that maybe there are some people who do 419 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 3: get access to it, but we don't have good regulation 420 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 3: around the skills for therapists. So there's kind of like 421 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 3: the wild wild West out there where anybody in a 422 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 3: context where it's legalized could do this work because there's 423 00:21:55,560 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 3: no accreditation process, certification process like licensure. It's still like 424 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 3: really really new in terms of creating treatment guidelines, ethical guidelines. 425 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 3: So you could be doing it legally but unethically right 426 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 3: or irresponsibly. You could be doing it illegally but very 427 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 3: ethically and responsibly. So there's like all of the tension 428 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 3: there to do with that. And then I think, you know, 429 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 3: one of the interesting things that we kind of get 430 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 3: into in this season too is what do we do 431 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 3: with recovered memories? What do we do with when people 432 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 3: access places inside of themselves that they don't have the 433 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 3: ability to confirm with others, like fragments of memories, And 434 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 3: how do we stay away from the you know, the 435 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 3: false memory history and the fiasco that you know, therapists 436 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 3: really have to recognize their's blood on their hands around 437 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,959 Speaker 3: that and make sure how do we make sure that 438 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 3: people when they're asking the question was I abused? What 439 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 3: was it abused? Did it happen? What do we do 440 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 3: with the questions when we don't know? 441 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 2: How do we like? 442 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 3: And I really do believe that we can support people 443 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 3: to treat the charge and the activation around trauma even 444 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 3: if we don't have the narrative. And that's part of 445 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 3: working with a bottom up somatic approach and an attachment 446 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 3: based approach. But you know, like, what do we do 447 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 3: with the material that we find when people on psychedelics 448 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 3: have the question like, oh, I think this happened to me, 449 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 3: but their parents are dead and they can't ask their 450 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 3: parents or they can't confirm with someone. And then of 451 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 3: course there's like, oh my gosh, this whole other facet 452 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 3: of this, which is that psychedelic medicine really belongs to 453 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 3: indigenous people, and here we are kind of moving it 454 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 3: into political settings and creating treatment guidelines that are related 455 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 3: to white Western allopathic forms of medicine that disqualify or 456 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 3: kind of erase the way that psychedelics have been used 457 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:52,199 Speaker 3: for millennia in community with incredible wisdom, Like we're people 458 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 3: who are getting and I include myself in this, like 459 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 3: people who are getting into this field but don't have 460 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 3: a long cultural. 461 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 2: History of it. 462 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 3: We have to be really careful about if we are 463 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 3: appropriating medicines, if we what can we can learn from 464 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 3: indigenous populations, what kind of the tensions between using plant 465 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 3: medicines that have been used by indigenous populations for a 466 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 3: long time versus like synthetic compounds that are relatively new 467 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 3: in terms of the history of medicine. So there's, like, 468 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 3: I think there's really important cultural pieces to look at 469 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 3: there too, in terms of like ownership of medicine and 470 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 3: wisdom and. 471 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 2: How to use it now not to use it. 472 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 5: Man, you just opened up a whole other topic that 473 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,479 Speaker 5: we're going to have to write down and bring you back. Look, 474 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 5: would you to have a mini series with just you 475 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 5: in these conversations? 476 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 2: Okay, I feel like I'm not helping you in this 477 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 2: conversation though. And then there are all. 478 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 3: Of these things we have to think about too, and 479 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 3: it's just each of them could be their own novel. 480 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 5: And I love that you address them because that is 481 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 5: one of the big dings when we talk about, especially 482 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 5: when we talk about like psychedelics, when we talk about 483 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,959 Speaker 5: these drugs and how it had again been demonized and 484 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 5: used against Indigenous people and people of color in general, 485 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 5: and then coming back and be like, but they're not wrong, 486 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 5: Like it's such a big conversation in. 487 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 3: Those oh so big, or then how about this too, 488 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 3: Like the paradox of that, like this work when it's 489 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 3: legal is so expensive, it can be I think there 490 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 3: are ways around that, and I think that that's the 491 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 3: responsibility of us as care providers and people who are 492 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 3: lobbying for changes in structures of care and health care 493 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 3: contexts and insurance context like we have to use our 494 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 3: voices to advocate for people who need this treatment but 495 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 3: don't have a voice. 496 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 2: That it is. 497 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 3: Weirdly paradoxical that so many of the people whose cultural 498 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 3: traditions would have given them access to psychedelic medicines now 499 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 3: are disenfranchised in the healthcare context where they can't even 500 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 3: access the thing legally that historically their ancestors would have 501 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 3: been using. Because they can't, you know, they're not welcomed 502 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 3: in the system. They're often disqualified for treatments they wouldn't 503 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 3: have necessarily have the money or the financial resources to 504 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 3: be able to pay for them. So there's like, man, 505 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 3: there's all sorts of stuff that's wrong with this, and 506 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 3: it can be profoundly dangerous, Like this could be the 507 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 3: exact worst thing a person could do for their mental health, right, 508 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 3: So we need to have people who are really, really 509 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 3: skilled at assessment. And what I like to say in 510 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 3: psychedelics psychotherapy is I will not say yes to psychedelics 511 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,479 Speaker 3: with you unless you can say no to me, right 512 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 3: or unless I can also say no to you right, 513 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 3: Like there is something about there needs to be an 514 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 3: awareness of this not being a panacea and us being 515 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 3: able to slow down, and can there be a better treatment? 516 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 3: Can there be something that is more effective? Have you 517 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,479 Speaker 3: tried any other things? Like can you do you actually 518 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 3: have the ability to say no to me? Because it's 519 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 3: going to be really hard to say no to me 520 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 3: on medicine if you can't say no to me in 521 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 3: ordinary states of consciousness. And then all of a sudden 522 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 3: something is coming up and it feels like, you know, 523 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 3: I'm saying, hey, can I hold your hand through that? 524 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 3: And if you don't know how to say no, does 525 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 3: that feel like I'm taking advantage of your body or 526 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 3: crossing a boundary? Like the negotiating of touch is another 527 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 3: thing that we really have to be clear about in 528 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 3: this work. When people often regress to younger developmental states 529 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 3: and they just want to be held and they want contact, 530 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 3: but maybe the adult part of them who walked into 531 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 3: the room and signed up for the treatment is not 532 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,360 Speaker 3: into having their handheld or not having you know, their arm, 533 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 3: like in contact with my arms. So wow, we have 534 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 3: to be thoughtful about boundaries, ethics, like protectiveness of people. 535 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 3: It's I mean, there's so much here that can be 536 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 3: really muddy, and to go slow and to be thoughtful 537 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 3: and to be judicious I think, and to consider history 538 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 3: and culture and context and access to treatment is it's 539 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 3: the only way. It's the only way we can do 540 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,199 Speaker 3: this and not have what happened in the sixties and 541 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 3: seven how seventies happen again where people are really reckless 542 00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 3: and careless and they kind of like ruin it for 543 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 3: everybody else. 544 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 2: Right, I mean understanding that. 545 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 5: I think one of the things that we talked about 546 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 5: when we started the show is like, this is an 547 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 5: individual experience and it has to be that way. We 548 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 5: have to make sure we prescribe to that individual and 549 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 5: what they are going through because these people have boundaries 550 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 5: that are different from other people. 551 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 2: These people have traumas that are other from different people. 552 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 5: It might be the same trauma, but they reacted differently 553 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 5: or the outcome was different. So all about like personalized 554 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 5: care is so important in everything, yeah, but obviously specifically especially. 555 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 3: In this Yeah, yeah, you're so right. Yeah, although that 556 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 3: kind of makes me think, like it's an interesting counterpoint 557 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 3: to that that psychedelics have been used in group contexts 558 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 3: since time immemorial and indigenous populations, right, there was often 559 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 3: either the shaman who would take the medicine and would 560 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 3: speak to people in the group, or people who take 561 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 3: medicine in a group context. And so there's that my 562 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 3: colleague and I that I'd referenced earlier. Through Catalyst, we 563 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 3: run group psychedelic psychotherapy because it's a powerful thing to 564 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 3: return people to community. And let me tell you, people 565 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 3: are lonely. There are people who are lonelier than they 566 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 3: have ever been. And this like loneliness and sleep feel 567 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 3: like the things that are going to drive us. I mean, 568 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 3: maybe social media used to, but are going to Are 569 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 3: theyre going to tank our mental health in the next 570 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 3: ten to twenty years if they haven't already, because people 571 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 3: are more disconnected from their bodies and from each other, 572 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 3: and so how do we use how do we use 573 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 3: medicines to actually bring people back into connection with each 574 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 3: other and the earth. And I think that that question 575 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 3: is a. 576 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 2: Very important one. 577 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 3: But we're again, we're like right on the forefront of 578 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 3: asking questions like how do we do that ethically when 579 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 3: we're giving people individualized care? 580 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 5: Too? Girl, Why are you overlapping our episodes because we 581 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 5: just talked about loneliness. 582 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 2: Yes, I'm going, I'm going to come. 583 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 5: I will never quitt lay internet. 584 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 2: If anyway, if I go missing, everyone knows where to look. 585 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 5: No, no, no, no, no, no no, We'll just. 586 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 2: Be having a slumber party. Yes, yet that's what will happen. 587 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, Well, you, as we've alluded to, as you've mentioned, 588 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: you did share your therapy session on the show, and 589 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: it was well, a question we often wrestle with Samantha 590 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: and I on this show is kind of where you 591 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: where do you draw the line of what to share? 592 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: What is healthy for you to share? So I'm just curious, 593 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: what was that experience like for you, Why did you 594 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: decide to do it, What were some of the factors 595 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: that went into your decision. 596 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 3: It's important to know the timescale when you think about 597 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 3: me sharing. So I did, I had the hemorrhage, I 598 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 3: saw I was pregnant with twins. I lost the twins 599 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 3: and pregnancy. Ten days later, I had a very cute 600 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 3: hemorrhage within which I, you know, I thought I was 601 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 3: going to die for sure, and so all of that 602 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 3: was mixed together, like there's this not of trauma. And 603 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 3: then about six or six months later, five months later, 604 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 3: I had the psychedelic session, which was recorded that you 605 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 3: hear on this on the show, but it was about 606 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 3: a year later that it actually came out, which meant 607 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 3: I had a year without ever even thinking it was 608 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 3: going to go on the show, to process that in therapy, 609 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 3: to to make sense of it, to re listen, to 610 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 3: feel what that did in my body, and to when 611 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 3: you know, re listen and realize WHOA I can hear 612 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 3: myself say some of those things and it doesn't feel 613 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 3: as charged for me. Wow, it really does feel like, Okay, 614 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 3: my body's moved to the other side of some big intensity, 615 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 3: and I really know that I'm safe and I really 616 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 3: know that I'm here. So I had a lot of 617 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 3: time to discern if that was the right move. And 618 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 3: I had a lot of people in my life who 619 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 3: are protective of me, who care for me, who often 620 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 3: help me sort through things related to media like listen 621 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 3: and talk through like is this a good choice? Is 622 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 3: it's not a good choice? And ultimately what it came 623 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 3: down to for me is I think about three things, 624 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 3: and the first one is I think that we construct 625 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 3: the archetype of the healer or the guru in such 626 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 3: a way that disconnects them from their own humanity. And 627 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 3: we take people and we say, well, they're a therapist, 628 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 3: like they might never struggle with that, or even like, 629 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 3: you know, where it looks where I think maybe it's 630 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 3: most obvious as you have parents who look at therapists 631 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 3: who work with children and families and would never assume 632 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 3: that those therapists also struggle with their own parenting. Sometimes right, 633 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 3: like we assume something about the role of therapists or 634 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 3: psychologists that means that we're impervious to our own you know, 635 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 3: like psychological basement, and that we don't have things we 636 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 3: have to look through or work through or struggle with. 637 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 3: And in a way then I think that sets us 638 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 3: up societally to think that if we just knew enough 639 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 3: or had enough degrees or got enough insight, then we 640 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 3: wouldn't also struggle with the pain of being human, and 641 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 3: I just simply disagree. I just think that's not true, right. 642 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 3: I think that it hurts to be human, whether you're 643 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 3: a therapist or not, whether you're a healer or not, 644 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 3: whether you're a pastor or a rabbi or a guru, 645 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 3: or a yoga teacher or a meditation teacher. It just 646 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 3: hurts to be human. And I want to make more 647 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 3: spaces where we can allow the healers in our society 648 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 3: to be welcomed into the conversation of being human instead 649 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 3: of excluded and in a way pressure to transcend. So 650 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 3: that's the first thing I think. The second thing is 651 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 3: it's a really important particularly I mean you had mentioned 652 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 3: this related to the Me Too movement. It's so important 653 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 3: for women to have a path like out before them 654 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 3: by other women that model what it is like to 655 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 3: walk right into the heart of the experiences in our 656 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:14,320 Speaker 3: body which have left us feeling disempowered, objectified, sexualized, powerless, 657 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 3: vulnerable at the hands of men in particular, and to 658 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 3: feel the way that it is possible to walk through 659 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 3: that to the other side, like what I wanted more 660 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,320 Speaker 3: than anything for women listening to that episode, or anyone 661 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 3: who's experienced any kind of sexual trauma, genital trauma, medical trauma. 662 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 3: To be able to listen to that and say it 663 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 3: can go differently from me, like I don't have to 664 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,800 Speaker 3: feel scared to be in my body because my body 665 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 3: actually knows how to get to the other side of 666 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 3: the fear that lives stuck inside of me because of 667 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,839 Speaker 3: what happened to me that was never my fault. And 668 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 3: for us to have audio media stories, however it is 669 00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 3: of people saying here's how much it hurt, is what 670 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,839 Speaker 3: it looks like to get to the other side, I 671 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,720 Speaker 3: think paves the way for us to create possibility inside 672 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 3: of our own nervous system that healing could happen for 673 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 3: us too. So I think there's that, And then I 674 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 3: think it's also just really important for people to see 675 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 3: that even though we might be leading that we are 676 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 3: still responsible to tend to what's inside of ourselves. And 677 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 3: so I may be a podcast host, I may be 678 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 3: a psychologist, but here's my vulnerability, Like I'm doing this 679 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 3: work too. I'm doing this work too, and I want 680 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 3: for you to do this work too. And I'm not 681 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,919 Speaker 3: above this and you are not above this, and really 682 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 3: nobody is above this. And I think it just humanizes 683 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 3: the process of going towards our pain in a way 684 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 3: that I think I really want people to know, like, hey, 685 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 3: I'm doing it too, I'm doing it too. 686 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 5: So I was in the social work field before I 687 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,919 Speaker 5: crashed into this podcasting field, and one of the things 688 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,760 Speaker 5: about my friend group would talk about was that most 689 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 5: of us are here because of trauma, much like yourself, 690 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 5: and feeling like we need to correct things or we 691 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 5: need to help the system and things, as well as 692 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 5: the fact we all often talk about Yeah, no therapists, 693 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 5: social workers, people who are in this field, they need 694 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 5: to be in therapy, they need to be in constant therapy, 695 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 5: they need a therapist to like survive this work, which 696 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 5: is exactly that level of understanding we are human, but 697 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 5: with that that vulnerability, because sometimes people will talk about 698 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,840 Speaker 5: this that they expect their therapist to be perfect, or 699 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 5: their person who is whoever that's in charge of whatever 700 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 5: situation should be perfect. In the actualities, No, we're broken 701 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 5: and that's why we're doing this work. 702 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, Or I could say like we are we are 703 00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 3: we broken? Are like are we actually brave enough to 704 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,760 Speaker 3: go to the places that are scary and we're modeling 705 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 3: that for our patients, which like, I think that's the 706 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 3: piece that you try, right, Like, that's the thing that 707 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 3: I want. I feel most clear about myself whenever I 708 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 3: do therapy and whenever I'm sitting across from someone doing therapy. 709 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 2: Is there's a whole bunch of people. 710 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 3: Out there in the world who are way too defended 711 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 3: and way too scared, Like under the defense is the 712 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 3: scared to look at, Like what does it feel like 713 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 3: inside of me? And the people who walk in the 714 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 3: door our culture might say that they're broken because that's 715 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:34,839 Speaker 3: the way, you know, the story I have to tell 716 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,240 Speaker 3: about why they need help and why other people don't. 717 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 3: And I think, actually, it's like, these are the people 718 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 3: who are the most powerful. These are the people who 719 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 3: are the bravest. These are the people who are telling 720 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 3: the truth about what doesn't work in our society. 721 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 2: Now I feel like I'm preaching at you. 722 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,800 Speaker 3: I love it. I'm like this is like I really 723 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,320 Speaker 3: think like people who who go to mental health treatment, 724 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 3: whether it's a group therapy setting, whether it's individual therapy, 725 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 3: whether it's like people who are in commune unity having 726 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 3: consciousness raising conversations, like I don't think individual psychotherapy has 727 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 3: the market on what healing looks like. 728 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 2: I think I can look like. 729 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 3: So many different things. But these are the people who 730 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 3: are often the bravest and brave enough to say it 731 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,320 Speaker 3: hurts to be human, and I can't do it alone, 732 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 3: and I want to understand where the hurt comes from. 733 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,399 Speaker 3: If I can do something different so I can feel 734 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 3: better and feel different, so that I can help other 735 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 3: people feel better and different, it is like, it is 736 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 3: the most admirable thing. 737 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:29,800 Speaker 2: I think. 738 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,839 Speaker 5: You start becoming self aware, you realize, oh, I need 739 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 5: this help. But he's like, because doing this alone is 740 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:39,399 Speaker 5: not working really exactly, because when you were talking about 741 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 5: your own work and listening to that episode was so 742 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 5: raw and so marble. Yeah, but with that made me 743 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 5: wonder because myself, who've gone through other types of trauma 744 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,400 Speaker 5: but understanding trying to like go through and relive the trauma, 745 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 5: how do you deal with that post traumatic stress, like 746 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 5: that level that's so constantly on red on an alert 747 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 5: that it feels like trying to navigate that through therapy 748 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 5: or trying to relive the trauma, it's so difficult to 749 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 5: even get past that point. And I know you kept 750 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,839 Speaker 5: saying the phrase I'm here but not here to kind 751 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 5: of bring awareness to what was happening in your consciousness 752 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 5: and subconsciousness. 753 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:21,360 Speaker 2: How do you work through that. 754 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 5: In this type of real deep trauma work. 755 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, one of the things that comes to mind, 756 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 3: and there's a bunch, but the first thing that comes 757 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 3: to mind is something called the homeostatic self correcting mechanism. 758 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 3: And the homeostatic self correcting mechanism is just our way 759 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 3: of saying, in light of the autonomic nervous system, there 760 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 3: is an innate drive within us as a mammal to 761 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 3: move us back towards homeostasis. And if you're listening to 762 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:53,879 Speaker 3: this or in this conversation, you're like, what what does 763 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 3: that mean? Think about any time you were hot and 764 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,239 Speaker 3: then you sweat, Right, there is like an unconscious but 765 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 3: conscious like there's like a consciousness to your body's wisdom 766 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,359 Speaker 3: that says, hey, something is getting just a little too 767 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,319 Speaker 3: hot here, I'm going to. 768 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:11,879 Speaker 2: Cool you down. 769 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 3: Similarly, I didn't get enough food to eat, and then 770 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:20,280 Speaker 3: my body produces hunger. The sensation drives me towards eating food, 771 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,319 Speaker 3: which regulates my nervous system blood sugar. Right, I can 772 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,320 Speaker 3: get everything that I need protein, energy, and then away 773 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,240 Speaker 3: I go So we have these drives inside of us 774 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 3: as bodies that know the way, and there's instinct to that, 775 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,360 Speaker 3: there is wisdom to that, and it is not something 776 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 3: that we access through thought. It is something that totally 777 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 3: comes from the from the autonomic nervous system in the body. 778 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 3: And why I bring that up is because our bodies 779 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 3: actually know how to resolve autonomic charge. And autonomic charge 780 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:55,440 Speaker 3: would be the thing that we would say, you know, 781 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,719 Speaker 3: for familiar folks who aren't familiar with that, it's like 782 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 3: the energy that your body deuces, not by thought, but 783 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,319 Speaker 3: in a body based way to help you respond to 784 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 3: threats by either shutting down, by fighting, by getting away, 785 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 3: by connecting, by fawning. So there's all of this energy 786 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 3: that your body supplies without you ever even having to 787 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 3: make a conscious decision to help you respond to the 788 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 3: threat in front of you. And that energy often gets 789 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,400 Speaker 3: baked into the memory of the trauma. And when trauma, 790 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,280 Speaker 3: the nature of trauma is that it's something that lives 791 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 3: inside of us unfinished. It's like the light switch gets 792 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 3: turned on of charge, like here's the charge, fight the beast. 793 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 3: But then the light switch never gets turned off, so 794 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,719 Speaker 3: the body still thinks, hey, I need this charge and 795 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 3: it's connected to this memory and it's not over and 796 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 3: I'm in it. But maybe we have like enough awareness 797 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:51,799 Speaker 3: sort of to be like, wait, the car accident is over. 798 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,760 Speaker 3: I'm like sitting in my you know, on my couch 799 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:56,680 Speaker 3: at home, Like, but why does my body feel like 800 00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 3: the charge is still here? So it can sometimes be 801 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 3: confusing because we're like, you know this thing, you said, 802 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 3: I'm here, but I'm not here. I'm like, I'm scared, 803 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 3: but I also somehow know that I'm safe for what 804 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:07,880 Speaker 3: like what do I do with all of this? So 805 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 3: in this particular context of working, what we do is 806 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 3: we start to connect to the charge that is left 807 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 3: over from the traumatic memory, and by getting closer to it, 808 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,240 Speaker 3: what we do is we help a person's body start 809 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,800 Speaker 3: to kind of in a way, re experience the activation, 810 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,719 Speaker 3: and in re experiencing the activation, then we kind of 811 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 3: clear out any of the obstacles along the way that 812 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,279 Speaker 3: might get in the way of interrupting that process and 813 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,880 Speaker 3: bodies like if you've ever seen the footage, I think 814 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,440 Speaker 3: Peter Levine often shows it in his trauma teachings, Like 815 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 3: a gazelle in the wild has been attacked by a 816 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,839 Speaker 3: lion and then they freeze and they flop, and then 817 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,040 Speaker 3: the lion kind of lose interests, thinking that they're dead, 818 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,120 Speaker 3: and then the line goes away, and then the gazelle 819 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,759 Speaker 3: kind of like shakes all of that energy off. That 820 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 3: there's charge in the body that is ready to, like 821 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 3: to be burned off as long as we are safe 822 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 3: enough to burn it off. So we're creating the conditions 823 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 3: in psychotherapy where with the help of psychedelics and also 824 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 3: the skill of the therapist, the person is getting to 825 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 3: release all of that stuff that was stored in the 826 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,800 Speaker 3: memory at the time of the trauma, and in doing 827 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:22,719 Speaker 3: so that homeostatic self correcting mechanism takes over. It's not 828 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 3: sweat because you were hot. It's like muscle activation because 829 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,359 Speaker 3: you thought you were going to die. And in doing 830 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,800 Speaker 3: so kind of like the releasing of it, then the body, 831 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,879 Speaker 3: the body gets to know, oh I got away. It's 832 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,760 Speaker 3: kind of like we get to say with our bodies, 833 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 3: I used up all the energy, I got away from 834 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:40,520 Speaker 3: the threat. 835 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:41,400 Speaker 2: I'm here. 836 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:43,600 Speaker 3: And maybe another way of saying that is like we 837 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:47,960 Speaker 3: don't really need to regulate ourselves when our bodies actually 838 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,080 Speaker 3: know their safe bodies actually regulate themselves. We don't need 839 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,800 Speaker 3: to take a ton of deep breaths to remind ourselves 840 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,000 Speaker 3: are safe when our bodies know that they're safe. So 841 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:57,960 Speaker 3: what we're trying to do is teach our bodies and 842 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,480 Speaker 3: like that that we got through. The way we get 843 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,719 Speaker 3: through is that we complete the charge that's connected to 844 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:04,520 Speaker 3: the memory. 845 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:08,200 Speaker 5: There. 846 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: Yes, you just you're gonna help it come back. I 847 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,640 Speaker 1: know you are, absolutely are. It's just difficult because we 848 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:16,479 Speaker 1: have a time limit. 849 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,279 Speaker 2: I'm like, h I know, there's so many things we 850 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,040 Speaker 2: want to ask and talk about. 851 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:26,279 Speaker 1: Yes, but one of the things, as we're getting close 852 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 1: to wrapping up here, you have had there's just really 853 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: raw and vulnerable moments in these episodes on the podcasts. 854 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,359 Speaker 1: What have been some of your takeaways or something that 855 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:41,280 Speaker 1: maybe you have learned doing during this whole process. 856 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:42,880 Speaker 2: Oh, I love that question. 857 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,480 Speaker 3: I think I think like right off the top is 858 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 3: it's amazing what bodies can do in the right context, Like, 859 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:56,680 Speaker 3: it is amazing how much terror a person can have 860 00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,880 Speaker 3: living under all of their defenses and their association. Like, 861 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 3: holy crap, that's pretty powerful. The bodies can hold onto 862 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 3: all that charge, and also that bodies know what to 863 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 3: do with it. In the right context, like what I'm 864 00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,360 Speaker 3: always like, what's happening? What's happening? Like why are we 865 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,560 Speaker 3: so afraid of our bodies when our bodies know the 866 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,279 Speaker 3: way to heal? Like how do they get so demonized? 867 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,120 Speaker 3: They're so so brilliant. So there's like a Holy Moly, 868 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:25,719 Speaker 3: there can be a lot under there for someone and 869 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,439 Speaker 3: also whoa like we can heal, Like we can really 870 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:30,879 Speaker 3: mend things and it's not too late. 871 00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 2: Like that's a big takeaway. 872 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:37,399 Speaker 3: I think another really big takeaway is that that there 873 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:41,120 Speaker 3: is something so important about having a person who really 874 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 3: knows you and is not afraid of whatever is in 875 00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:47,640 Speaker 3: your stuff, to walk right into your stuff with you 876 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,839 Speaker 3: in the most vulnerable moments, Like to have someone sit 877 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaker 3: with you on psychedelics who says there's nothing inside of 878 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,960 Speaker 3: you that I'm afraid of changes everything, because that's so 879 00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:58,919 Speaker 3: much of it for many of us, Like I can't 880 00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:00,920 Speaker 3: go here because I'm going to lose connection, or like 881 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:02,880 Speaker 3: someone's gonna judge me. You're like I'm gonna. 882 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:04,560 Speaker 2: Get overwhelmed, and then they're gonna get overwhelmed and then 883 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:06,000 Speaker 2: they're gonna leave, and then what do I do it? 884 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:06,239 Speaker 5: Then? 885 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,080 Speaker 2: And it's a right to. 886 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,680 Speaker 3: Have someone who's like, hey, yeah, I know exactly what 887 00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 3: we're heading into, and I'm not afraid. I think can 888 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,359 Speaker 3: make us. It's the thing that can make us brave, 889 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,680 Speaker 3: whether we're on psychedelics, or it's you're taking your kid 890 00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:22,520 Speaker 3: to school for the first day ever, or you're walking 891 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 3: with your friend into a surgery, or you know they 892 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,320 Speaker 3: have to have a tough conversation like I'm right here, 893 00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,279 Speaker 3: I got you, Like, let's do it. I'm with you 894 00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,680 Speaker 3: all the way. Is that I think it's the thing 895 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,040 Speaker 3: that can make us brave. There's that, and then I 896 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 3: mean like the power of telling our stories and showing 897 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,000 Speaker 3: what it looks like and sounds like to heal, Like 898 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:47,200 Speaker 3: vicarious healing is real. It's real, and in the age 899 00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:49,640 Speaker 3: that we're in where people are more connected than ever, 900 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 3: but not in an emotionally authentic, engaged way, to experience 901 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:59,360 Speaker 3: someone's emotional vulnerability and feel the benefit of that is like, 902 00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,720 Speaker 3: it's kind of it's the media that I want to create. 903 00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:04,799 Speaker 3: It's the thing that I think will actually stitch us 904 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,279 Speaker 3: back together inside of ourselves, in between each other. 905 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:11,799 Speaker 1: Absolutely that just knowing you're not alone, whether it is 906 00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,279 Speaker 1: somebody to go face The thing with you arts just 907 00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:19,239 Speaker 1: listening to a podcast and being like, oh, okay, I'm 908 00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:21,759 Speaker 1: not alone. I have someone else is feeling this. 909 00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:24,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know that because you've done that too. 910 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,720 Speaker 3: You've given people really generous gifts of your own work 911 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,719 Speaker 3: and these conversations which I think, yeah, I think it. 912 00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:33,919 Speaker 2: It's what we need. So bravo you too. 913 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,319 Speaker 1: Yes, and to you as well, thank you so much 914 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,360 Speaker 1: for taking the time. We know you're so busy. Oh 915 00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:43,320 Speaker 1: you will have to come back please. 916 00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,960 Speaker 5: I be obligatory at this point is absolutely enough to 917 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:47,600 Speaker 5: make it happen. 918 00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,480 Speaker 1: But in the meantime, where can the good listeners find you? 919 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:51,400 Speaker 5: Oh? 920 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,480 Speaker 3: And thanks so much for listening everybody. I'm just so 921 00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:55,279 Speaker 3: touched that you're here all the way to the end. 922 00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:57,960 Speaker 3: It means so much. You can find me on other 923 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,200 Speaker 3: people's problems wherever you get your podcasts. I have a 924 00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:03,319 Speaker 3: new book out that came out in April. It's called 925 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,640 Speaker 3: Holy Hurt, all about spiritual trauma, spiritual and religious trauma, 926 00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:08,880 Speaker 3: which I think is probably all of us at this 927 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:13,759 Speaker 3: point in North America, and my website Hillary el McBride. 928 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:18,440 Speaker 3: I'm I would say probably mostly on Instagram, Hillary Leona 929 00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,200 Speaker 3: McBride although you can find me on Facebook and threads 930 00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:23,919 Speaker 3: and all of those other places. And if you get 931 00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:28,040 Speaker 3: onto my email list, if you go onto my website, 932 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,360 Speaker 3: Hillary el McBride, if you wait, there's like a box 933 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:32,080 Speaker 3: that pops up, put your email in, and then you 934 00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:33,879 Speaker 3: can be on my newsletter, which is where I send 935 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,960 Speaker 3: out links to live events that I'm doing, trainings that 936 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,520 Speaker 3: I'm doing for clinicians group therapy programs I'm running. You 937 00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:44,319 Speaker 3: can get information about psychedelic psychotherapy training program and new 938 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,080 Speaker 3: things that are coming out. So head over to my 939 00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:47,839 Speaker 3: website and sign up for my email list to get 940 00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:48,560 Speaker 3: info there. 941 00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,440 Speaker 1: Yes, go do that, listeners. Thank you so much for 942 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:58,000 Speaker 1: being here till next tiank you so much till next time. Yes, Yes, 943 00:48:58,200 --> 00:48:59,920 Speaker 1: if you would like to contact us, you can or 944 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,239 Speaker 1: email is Hello at stuffwenever told you dot com. You 945 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:04,240 Speaker 1: can find us on boost Guy. I'm also a podcast 946 00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,399 Speaker 1: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff We Never told you. 947 00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:08,319 Speaker 1: We're also on YouTube and we have a book you 948 00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:10,560 Speaker 1: can get wherever you can't hear books. Thanks as always 949 00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:12,880 Speaker 1: to our super produced Christina or executive Puser and your 950 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,880 Speaker 1: contributor Joey. Thank you, and thanks to you for listening 951 00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:17,920 Speaker 1: stuff on Never Told You Direction by heart Radio. For 952 00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:19,640 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can check out 953 00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:21,560 Speaker 1: the heart Radio app app a podcast wherever you listen 954 00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:22,719 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.