Speaker 1: Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm
Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Manky.
Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 1: I know many of you out there are hungry for
Speaker 1: more paranormal content these days. What if I told you
Speaker 1: there is about to be a community just for fans
Speaker 1: of ghosts and hauntings like us. For months, I've been
Speaker 1: working on something incredible and I am so thrilled to
Speaker 1: be releasing it into the wild. I'd like to be
Speaker 1: the first to welcome you to the Paranormal Circle. Imagine
Speaker 1: a place where you can access weekly live chats and
Speaker 1: roundtable discussions about all things supernatural. Watch twenty four to
Speaker 1: seven webcams positioned inside some of your favorite haunted locations.
Speaker 1: In addition to that, you'll be able to watch and
Speaker 1: assist during live streaming investigations with me and some of
Speaker 1: my friends who you may recognize. You'll also be granted
Speaker 1: access to an archive of evidence from these investigations, and
Speaker 1: you can upload your own evidence for all of us
Speaker 1: to weigh in on. Even more, you will be on
Speaker 1: the list for private in person meetups plus dedicated Paranormal
Speaker 1: Circle meetups at your favorite paranormal conventions. Strange escapes, retreats,
Speaker 1: and comic cons. We've also worked with many of these
Speaker 1: events and your favorite paranormal retailers to offer Paranormal Circle
Speaker 1: only discounts. All of this, plus dedicated merchandise and swag
Speaker 1: giveaways amounts to one really cool space for all of
Speaker 1: us to enjoy together. If this sounds right up your
Speaker 1: dark alley, then I'd like to personally invite you to
Speaker 1: be one of the first to join the Paranormal Circle.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to join the waiting list to be
Speaker 1: one of the founding members of the Circle, head to
Speaker 1: Amybrunie dot com and get on the list asap. We'll
Speaker 1: be opening up membership this spring, and those on the
Speaker 1: waiting list get first access. Again, all of this is
Speaker 1: only accessible to Paranormal Circle members, so head to Amy
Speaker 1: Bruney dot com and join the waiting list today.
Speaker 3: Hello everyone, Hello, I'm not Amy Bruney. By the way,
Speaker 3: I don't know if you know this because I'm not
Speaker 3: drinking wine. That's the only defining factor right there. So Amy,
Speaker 3: being the MC for this entire event, gets to introduce
Speaker 3: all these different great sessions, but this one is her session,
Speaker 3: and so it felt kind of appropriate for me to
Speaker 3: get up here and say a couple of things. So
Speaker 3: I loved this morning's talk from Amanda talking about how
Speaker 3: important it was to understand sort of the history behind
Speaker 3: the stories that we hear, because it's really helpful in
Speaker 3: bringing those stories to life.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: I talked about this with a lot of people yesterday
Speaker 3: that when you if you just say there's the ghost
Speaker 3: of a woman who gets seen in this room, always
Speaker 3: walking through, it's spooky, but it's not the full story.
Speaker 3: If you are first told, oh, by the way, the
Speaker 3: wife of the guy who built the used to walk
Speaker 3: through here all the time, or she had dinner in
Speaker 3: here all the time, and this is the room that
Speaker 3: she died in. I'm just making this up, by the way.
Speaker 3: Then when you hear that there's always a woman seeing
Speaker 3: in period clothing, it starts to come to life.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: So that was the conversation that Amy and I were
Speaker 3: having years ago, and we were talking about what kind
Speaker 3: of a show could she have as a podcast? And
Speaker 3: what I felt was this unbalanced history of lots and
Speaker 3: lots of ghost hunting reporting, which is amazing and fine,
Speaker 3: but it was like half of the story was going
Speaker 3: into a place and having an experience with nothing in
Speaker 3: history to anchor it to. And I said, you have
Speaker 3: a much more emotional approach to these stories, and you're
Speaker 3: connected to them more deeply. Wouldn't it be great if
Speaker 3: there was a show where the first half of it
Speaker 3: was basically teaching you the history of this location, the
Speaker 3: people that were there, the lives that lived and loved
Speaker 3: and were lost in all of that, and then shift
Speaker 3: over to now, let's talk to somebody who's been there,
Speaker 3: and you start to see the connections in those conversations.
Speaker 3: So that's where Haunted Road was born. And so today
Speaker 3: you get the joy of watching one of those live
Speaker 3: Haunted Road shows that people talk about with Amy and Richard.
Speaker 3: So let's bring Amy on up.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Aaron, full circle. I love this. Welcome everyone. Now,
Speaker 1: just a quick warning. We are recording, so you know
Speaker 1: you're going to be recorded in infamy if you yell
Speaker 1: out anything inappropriate. That's not common on the champagne that's
Speaker 1: sitting in front of me. Thank you, ladies. But I
Speaker 1: do want to give a content warning because today's case
Speaker 1: this is pretty heavy. So I just want to let
Speaker 1: you know we're dealing with serial killers, murder, really, really
Speaker 1: awful stuff. So, without further ado, let's get started. In
Speaker 1: the early nineteen nineties, a news story ran on a
Speaker 1: local affiliate in Indiana. A gentleman had brought to light
Speaker 1: something he felt was unjust and unfair, and he wanted
Speaker 1: the world to know. You see, he and his son
Speaker 1: had watched a truck belonging to the Indiana State Highway
Speaker 1: Department striping the side of the road with yellow lines.
Speaker 1: To his apparent horror, there was a roadkill on the
Speaker 1: side of the road, a hapless raccoon, and what do
Speaker 1: you know, that truck striped right over it. The man
Speaker 1: happened to have a polaroid camera with him, so he
Speaker 1: took photos of the raccoon that was now apparently one
Speaker 1: with the roadway. Then he proceeded to contact the Highway
Speaker 1: Department and the local news on camera. During a beautiful
Speaker 1: sunny day, this man stood in front of his property,
Speaker 1: telling the local reporter that the raccoon deserved better. How
Speaker 1: dare that little fella end up with such a fate?
Speaker 1: In turn, the Highway Department was interviewed, acknowledging their terrible
Speaker 1: mistake and saying it was an icelated incident. The irony here, however,
Speaker 1: is strong. The man in the interview, his name was
Speaker 1: Herb Baumeister, and behind him on that property at the
Speaker 1: very moment he lamented the fate of that poor raccoon,
Speaker 1: where the rotting remains of at least eleven men he
Speaker 1: had killed, dismembered and tried to hide. This is the
Speaker 1: story of fox Hollow Farm. I'm Amy Bruney, and this
Speaker 1: is Haunted Road. The main house at fox Hollow Farm
Speaker 1: looks like anything but a farmhouse. The stately Tudor style manner,
Speaker 1: with white walls and brown trim, is surrounded on every
Speaker 1: side by trees. Visitors can book tours or rent it
Speaker 1: as a wedding venue for an elegant country affair. Although
Speaker 1: developers are building new houses nearby, the home fields secluded
Speaker 1: thanks to its long driveway and fences. Inside, the wood
Speaker 1: walls and ceilings are warm and inviting. Brightly colored rugs
Speaker 1: carry guests past plush furniture. Up the stairs, visitors can
Speaker 1: find the library, stained glass lined study, and master bedroom.
Speaker 1: Sunlight streams in through the big windows, which hold a
Speaker 1: view of the woods out back. Thanks to the new
Speaker 1: construction projects, you can see the neighboring houses peeking through
Speaker 1: the trees, but a few decades ago it would have
Speaker 1: been easy to feel like the house was alone in
Speaker 1: a dense forest. The bottom floor has a pool surrounded
Speaker 1: by even more windows. Guests can enjoy a drink from
Speaker 1: the wet bar while admiring the view of the tree
Speaker 1: filled backyard. The idyllic Fox Hollow Farm is nestled in Westfield, Indiana,
Speaker 1: which is just about a half hour north of Indianapolis. Honestly,
Speaker 1: this small city sounds a bit like Paradise. For most
Speaker 1: of its existence, it was a rural farming community, but
Speaker 1: in the nineteen nineties the population exploded thanks to its
Speaker 1: great reputation. In a history of Westfield, Indiana, author Tom
Speaker 1: Rumor notes that Westfield was known for its great career opportunities,
Speaker 1: athletic facilities, and a generally high quality of life. Around
Speaker 1: the same time, nearby Indianapolis was a hub for gay
Speaker 1: culture in the Midwest. Residents and visitors could find safety
Speaker 1: and support in the twelve gay bars that got at
Speaker 1: the city, but homophobia was still very common in the
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, even in gay friendly communities like Indianapolis. So
Speaker 1: when numerous gay men disappeared in rapid succession, the police
Speaker 1: barely paid any attention. Sarah Murrell noted in The Hunter
Speaker 1: of Fox Hollow that at least ten gay men were
Speaker 1: reported missing between nineteen ninety three and nineteen ninety four.
Speaker 1: They all were adults who were thirty five or younger,
Speaker 1: were last seen in bars, and had what she called
Speaker 1: a clean cut, preppy look. Then, Roger Allan Goodlett and
Speaker 1: Alan Wayne Brossard went missing in the summer of nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety four. Their families weren't content to wait around for
Speaker 1: the police to take the case seriously. They hired a
Speaker 1: private detective, Virgil Vandergriff to dig into the mystery. Later
Speaker 1: that year, Virgil found a major clue that the police
Speaker 1: had missed a survivor with a harrowing story that hinted
Speaker 1: at what might have become of the missing men. The
Speaker 1: witness's name was Mark Goodyear, and he told Virgil he
Speaker 1: went home with a man calling himself Brian Smart after
Speaker 1: meeting him at a bar. According to Vic Reichhardt's reporting
Speaker 1: on WRTV, Mark State took him to a nice home
Speaker 1: in the suburbs that had its own swimming pool. The
Speaker 1: pair sat by the pool, enjoying drinks from the wet bar,
Speaker 1: but Mark was stricken by the strange decor choices. Sarah Murels,
Speaker 1: the hunter at Fox Hollow, notes that Mark told the
Speaker 1: PI the house was filled with boxes and the pool
Speaker 1: was surrounded by clothed Mannikins, but this was far from
Speaker 1: the eerious detail from his date. After Mark and Brian
Speaker 1: did some drugs, Brian suggested the experiment with erotic asphyxiation. However,
Speaker 1: once he wrapped a swimming pool hose around Mark's neck,
Speaker 1: the play grew too rough for Mark. Brian refused to
Speaker 1: let go of the hose until Mark pretended to pass
Speaker 1: out from a lack of oxygen. Later, when Mark opened
Speaker 1: his eyes and acted like he was just waking up,
Speaker 1: he noticed that Brian seemed nervous and uncomfortable. Somehow, he
Speaker 1: convinced Brian to take him back home, which was very lucky.
Speaker 1: Mark may not have realized it then, but his partner
Speaker 1: had a history of strangling other dates to death. This
Speaker 1: wasn't Mark's only bout of good luck. A year later,
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety five, he spotted Brian at a bar.
Speaker 1: He immediately recognized his old attacker and figured out which
Speaker 1: car he'd driven there, except when detectives ran the license
Speaker 1: plate number, they found the vehicle didn't belong to Brian Smart.
Speaker 1: The man had given Mark a fake name. His real
Speaker 1: identity was Herbert Baumer, and he and his wife lived
Speaker 1: in a large suburban house outside of town on an
Speaker 1: acreage known as Fox Hollow Farm. It was a perfect
Speaker 1: match for the residence Mark had described to Virgil Vandergriff.
Speaker 1: When police confronted Herbert and asked to search his property,
Speaker 1: he flat out refused to let them in. Once it
Speaker 1: was clear he wouldn't cooperate, the police had tried to
Speaker 1: convince Herbert's wife, Julie, to let them search her house instead.
Speaker 1: Initially Julie was resistant, but eventually she agreed to cooperate.
Speaker 1: This was likely because her marriage to Herbert was crumbling.
Speaker 1: Their sex life was nonexistent. Courtney Hardwick's article within magazine
Speaker 1: notes that Julie and Herbert had only had sex a
Speaker 1: handful of times in their twenty five years of marriage.
Speaker 1: As the pair navigated their split, Herbert moved out of
Speaker 1: the main house but continued living in a small apartment
Speaker 1: over the garage. Julie secured full custody of their three children,
Speaker 1: and took out a restraining order against her husband, perhaps
Speaker 1: because of his history of violent faith of anger. She
Speaker 1: also knew Herbert had mental health struggles, as he'd spent
Speaker 1: more than a month committed to a psychiatric facilities soon
Speaker 1: after their wedding. Throughout their marriage, Herbert had bounced from
Speaker 1: job to job. His erratic tendencies made coworkers uneasy and
Speaker 1: often got him in trouble. According to a J. Wiseman
Speaker 1: writing for crime Beat, at some point he was diagnosed
Speaker 1: with schizophrenia and a personality disorder, but it doesn't seem
Speaker 1: that this led to a viable treatment or any significant
Speaker 1: improvement in his behavior. Still, Julie had never imagined Herbert
Speaker 1: would cheat on her with men, let alone kill his
Speaker 1: extramarital partners. Even when their son had found a human
Speaker 1: skull behind their home and Herbert told the bizarre story
Speaker 1: to explain its presence, she hadn't suspected anything now, though
Speaker 1: she realized he had ample opportunity to kill, as she
Speaker 1: and the children often took lengthy trips in the summer,
Speaker 1: leaving Herbert alone at home, and when she learned of
Speaker 1: all the evidence the homicide detectives had against her husband,
Speaker 1: Julie was willing to cooperate with her permission. Police searched
Speaker 1: Fox Hollow Farm on June twenty fourth, nineteen ninety six.
Speaker 1: They found the setup was exactly like what Mark Goodyear
Speaker 1: had described to the Private Eye. The house was filled
Speaker 1: with boxes, while clothed mannequins stood around the indoor swimming
Speaker 1: pool with a wet bar nearby. And in the yard
Speaker 1: and the woods that surrounded the house, they uncovered roughly
Speaker 1: ten thousand human bone fragments. That's not counting the impact
Speaker 1: bones they unearthed as well. Some appear to be burnt.
Speaker 1: In WRTV Vick Reichert's report, he says Herbert disposed of
Speaker 1: his victims by immolating their bodies, then smashing their bones
Speaker 1: and scattering all that remained across the farm. He also
Speaker 1: may have incorporated bits of broken bone into the gravel
Speaker 1: he used to landscape the yard. But the horrific scene
Speaker 1: at Fox Hollow Farm it may not have been all
Speaker 1: Herbert's handiwork. Richard Estepp and Robert Graves wrote in the
Speaker 1: Horrors of Fox Hollow Farm, Unraveling the History and Hauntings
Speaker 1: of a serial killer's home, that wild animals may have
Speaker 1: also been to blame in some cases. After he killed
Speaker 1: his victims, Herbert would hide their bodies in an outdoor
Speaker 1: pile of mulch. Then scavengers from the nearby woodlands would
Speaker 1: tear apart the decomposing corpses. Investigators found eleven different left thumbbones,
Speaker 1: so we know Herbert had at least that many victims
Speaker 1: in his yard. Most estimates put the kill count closer
Speaker 1: to twenty five, though it's hard to be too specific
Speaker 1: as many of the skeleton's police were covered were incomplete.
Speaker 1: By nineteen ninety nine, the officials managed to identify eight
Speaker 1: of Herbert's victims, all had gone missing between nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: three and nineteen ninety five. He's also a top suspect
Speaker 1: in numerous other missing person cases and unsolved murders, including
Speaker 1: of nine individuals who were killed before Herbert moved to
Speaker 1: wa ust Field, but people are still finding evidence on
Speaker 1: the property today. A new bone was recently discovered in
Speaker 1: December twenty twenty two, and another victim was confirmed just
Speaker 1: this past October. As for Herbert Baumeister, he fled the
Speaker 1: country as soon as he learned about the detective's successful search.
Speaker 1: He was never arrested or brought to formal justice, but
Speaker 1: Herbert did not remain free for long. On July third,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six, a week and a half after the
Speaker 1: remains were discovered, he killed himself in Canada. Before his death,
Speaker 1: a witness saw Herbert in his car with a box
Speaker 1: of VHS tapes, tapes that have gone missing since his suicide.
Speaker 1: It's impossible to say what footage they contained, but police
Speaker 1: believe he filmed some of his murders. It's thought he
Speaker 1: destroyed the tapes before taking his own life. When his
Speaker 1: body was found, he laid near an altar made of sand,
Speaker 1: which was decorated with dead birds. According to private investigator
Speaker 1: Virgil Vandergriff, Herbert left a suicide note that closed by
Speaker 1: saying I AM going to eat a peanut butter sandwich
Speaker 1: and go to sleep. However, if rumors are to be believed,
Speaker 1: he did not rest in peace afterward. It said Herbert
Speaker 1: still haunts the Fox Hollow Farm. His spirit, as well
Speaker 1: as a shadow figure, had been spotted peering out the
Speaker 1: upstairs bathroom window or lurking near the pool pump room,
Speaker 1: and many visitors get an uneasy feeling or perceive a
Speaker 1: presence with them in the pool room and the master bedroom.
Speaker 1: It's been said that when Herbert lived at Fox Hollow Farm,
Speaker 1: he often locked himself out and knocked on the door
Speaker 1: late at night so his wife or children would hear
Speaker 1: and open it for him. Since his death, at least
Speaker 1: one resident, Joe LeBlanc, reported he often heard knocking on
Speaker 1: the door, always at one forty five in the morning,
Speaker 1: and always seven knocks in short succession. Joe also describes
Speaker 1: one unnerving incident where he stepped into the kitchen only
Speaker 1: to find all his knives had been pulled out and
Speaker 1: set on the counter. Afterward, he found new cut marks
Speaker 1: on the walls. Another time, Joe felt hands clasped his
Speaker 1: neck while he was swimming in the pool. It's understandable
Speaker 1: that the pool would be a hotbed for spiritual activity.
Speaker 1: This is where Herbert attacked Mark Goodyear according to his
Speaker 1: testimony to the PI, and police believe Herbert strangled numerous
Speaker 1: other victims there too, so it's understandable that their restless
Speaker 1: spirits still remain near its waters. When visitors take a dip,
Speaker 1: they may hear someone knocking on the door, but when
Speaker 1: they answer, there's no one there, and a recent homeowner
Speaker 1: was trying to vacuum in the pool room, only for
Speaker 1: the plug to keep yanking out of the outlet, even
Speaker 1: though the cord was loose and she wasn't tugging on it. Additionally,
Speaker 1: a man in a red t shirt has been spotted
Speaker 1: on the farm numerous times. He often walks into the woods,
Speaker 1: only visible from the waist up. Joe LeBlanc said on
Speaker 1: one occasion, his dog chased the man in red deeper
Speaker 1: into the forest, only for the figure to vanish then
Speaker 1: reappear in a new location. There are also reports of
Speaker 1: a frightened man running for his life through the apartment.
Speaker 1: When Joe LeBlanc looked at a photo of one of
Speaker 1: Herbert's victims, he was stricken by how similar the picture
Speaker 1: was to that fleeing spirit. Besides these apparitions, paranormal investigators
Speaker 1: at Fox Hollow Farm pick up EVPs and hear voices,
Speaker 1: footsteps and bangs. Electrical equipment tends to die quickly on
Speaker 1: the property, and lights flicker while doors open and close
Speaker 1: on their own. But some of these incidents may have
Speaker 1: nothing to do with Herbert Baumeister and his murders. Many
Speaker 1: guests have described a figure in the woods, darting from
Speaker 1: tree to tree that's believed to be an inhuman spirit.
Speaker 1: In their book The Horrors of Fox Hollow Farm, Richard
Speaker 1: Estep and Robert Graves described this entity as blacker than black,
Speaker 1: and on multiple occasions psychic said they'd made contact with
Speaker 1: an anonymous figure. This being, whoever or whatever it is,
Speaker 1: reportedly pretends to be the ghost of Herbert Baumeister, but
Speaker 1: according to these mediums, his actual spirit isn't anywhere near
Speaker 1: Fox Hollow Farm. In light of this, it's safe to
Speaker 1: say there's far more to this property than meets the eye. Today,
Speaker 1: I just happened to have the perfect guest to speak
Speaker 1: on this case. We are joined by my good friend
Speaker 1: Richard Estep, who has investigated and studied fox Hellow Farm
Speaker 1: for quite some time and actually has a book on
Speaker 1: it which I've quoted a couple of times. Mister Estep, welcome,
Speaker 1: come on down. Hello, Hi, there is this on, Yes
Speaker 1: it is. I'm so excited to have you here. I
Speaker 1: don't normally, sorry, like I don't normally get to have
Speaker 1: someone who's actually written a book on the location on
Speaker 1: haunted Roads. I'm very excited. I am horrified that I
Speaker 1: did not really know about this case before people started
Speaker 1: talking about investigating there, Like, why do you I mean, obviously,
Speaker 1: I think the obvious is why that happened, But like,
Speaker 1: how do you think that affects the activity there overall?
Speaker 2: How do I think the activity is affected by the
Speaker 2: fact that it's not very well known. It's surprising, right
Speaker 2: because if you log onto Netflix or any of the
Speaker 2: streaming services, you know, it seems so many serial killers
Speaker 2: have their TV series, their many series, their stories are told.
Speaker 2: Fox Hollow seems to have flown under the radar for
Speaker 2: so long.
Speaker 1: It's wild to me. And like I was when so
Speaker 1: you showed me that YouTube video of this gentleman of
Speaker 1: Herbert like on the news, and he has this almost grin,
Speaker 1: like he knows he's doing something, he knows what he's doing,
Speaker 1: Like what do you think was going on in his
Speaker 1: head at that moment.
Speaker 2: Having interviewed people that knew her about mystet and were
Speaker 2: close to him, gave me some insight into his state
Speaker 2: of mind, and someone who knew him very well said,
Speaker 2: he is absolutely getting his jollies on the fact that
Speaker 2: look at my left hand. Here, look at this pay
Speaker 2: attention to this board deadon and slyly enjoying the fact
Speaker 2: that right behind him in those trees that you can
Speaker 2: see just out of camera shop are the remains of
Speaker 2: these poor men that he's murdered. He's the only one
Speaker 2: that knows this, and the rest of us are all
Speaker 2: fools for paying attention to the raccoon.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it is. If you get a chance,
Speaker 1: people listening, look up that video, because it's absolutely haunting
Speaker 1: knowing what this man did and how he's really playing
Speaker 1: to like this poor raccoon. It's bizarre. But on that note,
Speaker 1: just kind of the activity that happens there. What is
Speaker 1: going on there now? Like I know there's a development
Speaker 1: going in. What are people like, what's happening on that property?
Speaker 2: Well, Foxhlo had after I left and finished the book,
Speaker 2: Foxhollow quietened down. I was really happy to hear that
Speaker 2: because the idea of these poor men, these poor souls.
Speaker 2: I could care less about Herbert Baumeister, but those poor men,
Speaker 2: you know, not getting a traditional burial really disturbed me.
Speaker 2: And so the idea that the activity was starting to
Speaker 2: wind down I thought was one of the you know,
Speaker 2: maybe some pieces at last coming to that location. And
Speaker 2: then the land or a portion of the land was
Speaker 2: sold for development. So now property development is happening on
Speaker 2: Fox Hollow Farmer. As we all know, that can be
Speaker 2: a catalyst for paranormal activity to ramp up again.
Speaker 1: So what kind of activity are people experiencing there? I
Speaker 1: touched on it a little bit, but just kind of
Speaker 1: can you go into more detail of what happens there
Speaker 1: and how often?
Speaker 2: Absolutely so, the house sat vacant after Herb Baumeister's family
Speaker 2: moved out. The only occupants, ironically were raccoons in the attic.
Speaker 2: Oh gosh. And so a couple called Rob and Vicki
Speaker 2: brook Graves and their children bought the house. They had
Speaker 2: to be okay with the fact that all those murders
Speaker 2: had happened there, and they were the very rational people.
Speaker 2: Rob is a coroner to give you an idea, and
Speaker 2: Vicky also works in the medical field as a scientist.
Speaker 2: And Vicki was actually the first person to see the
Speaker 2: young man in the red shirt disappear into the woods
Speaker 2: and later identified him from news real footage as one
Speaker 2: of the victims, and the same victim Jola Blank had
Speaker 2: seen in the woods also, so we had corroboration there.
Speaker 2: So that's how things started. Jola Blank, the lodger when
Speaker 2: he moved in, was of the same age as many
Speaker 2: of Baumeister's preferred victims, and so that is a great
Speaker 2: catalyst for the haunting to kick off and to high gear.
Speaker 2: Joe has since moved out, and that may be a
Speaker 2: factor in why things have in fact calmed down at Foxhollow.
Speaker 2: But the whole gamut of paranormal activity, from the phantom footsteps,
Speaker 2: the voices, apparitions, anything in the Paranormal Investigators playbook has
Speaker 2: happened at that farm at some point since the death
Speaker 2: of Herb Baumeister.
Speaker 1: Now are they allowing investigations or is this just kind
Speaker 1: of like a special thing that you were allowed in there,
Speaker 1: Like it's I imagine it's not like a commercial endeavor
Speaker 1: of theirs.
Speaker 2: I mean no, no, it's you can't rent Fox Hollow
Speaker 2: Farm and investigate there. There was a time when it
Speaker 2: was opened to paranormal investigators. There were some objections on
Speaker 2: the part of the local government, the city, and I
Speaker 2: totally understand why most serial killer locations where the murders
Speaker 2: took place, you know, thinking about like Dama's apartment or
Speaker 2: wherever they are quite rightly pulled down and demolished because
Speaker 2: who wants them to be a shrine to something ghoulish?
Speaker 2: But Fox Hollow is still a working family residence. It's beautiful,
Speaker 2: and I rather like the idea that a family can
Speaker 2: take this horrible, negative energy and replace it with good,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I've talked about that in the past.
Speaker 1: How kind of unfairly sometimes locations become defined by terrible
Speaker 1: things that happened there. We're talking about homes, hotels, you know,
Speaker 1: national landmarks. You know, something terrible happens and it kind of,
Speaker 1: in our minds anyway, negates every bit of good that
Speaker 1: ever happened there. So I do like the idea of it,
Speaker 1: you know, becoming something else and that energy overtaking what
Speaker 1: happened there over the years.
Speaker 2: Yeah. We just saw this at your Strange Escapes Bendngettysburg,
Speaker 2: which was awesome by the way, with the orphanage, which
Speaker 2: you know, there are stories of terrible mistreatment of children there,
Speaker 2: but that's a small percentage of that building's history. You
Speaker 2: have many years of people being happy there at being
Speaker 2: a museum. Fox Hollow now is a family home and
Speaker 2: although there is I believe still paranormal activity taking place.
Speaker 2: The Graves family and their children bring all this kind
Speaker 2: of love and light and joy. I hope that stain
Speaker 2: can be erased.
Speaker 1: Now it's fairly recent. I mean, this is a pretty
Speaker 1: recent case. How do you think that the relatives of
Speaker 1: the victims feel about this potentially being a place where
Speaker 1: there's paranormal activity.
Speaker 2: This is probably the book I've agonized most about writing
Speaker 2: and came closest never to writing, simply because I was
Speaker 2: concerned with these murders taking place in the eighties and
Speaker 2: the nineties. The interstate murders Bameister did were in the eighties,
Speaker 2: and I really agonized over it, and I came to
Speaker 2: the conclusion that these poor men, many of them are unnamed.
Speaker 2: We have some of the names only because these are
Speaker 2: gay men that disappeared from Indianapolis bars around that time,
Speaker 2: and we're never seen again, and so their stories were
Speaker 2: always going to be untold. They were always they were
Speaker 2: going to be allowed to be forgotten, and sadly some
Speaker 2: of them are. And some of these men are sitting
Speaker 2: in boxes in storage as opposed to being buried. So
Speaker 2: the activity would not have gone away had I not
Speaker 2: written the book. The last thing I wanted to do
Speaker 2: was upset any of the family members of those victims,
Speaker 2: but I felt the story needed to be told, if
Speaker 2: only so that we can keep an eye out for
Speaker 2: the next Herb Baumeister and maybe see some of the
Speaker 2: warning signs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very fair. Actually I didn't because you know,
Speaker 1: many times when we're investigating a location, kind of the
Speaker 1: solution for spirits is acknowledgment or you know, resolution in
Speaker 1: some way figuring out what happened or why they're there,
Speaker 1: or who they are. And so I guess there is
Speaker 1: something to be said for that that, you know, acknowledging
Speaker 1: them in this book and really getting that story out
Speaker 1: there could over time help the level panormal activity there. Now,
Speaker 1: what do you think about these new houses? What do
Speaker 1: you think is going to happen there? I'm very curious.
Speaker 2: I am too, to tell you the truth, because as
Speaker 2: you pointed out, you know, the bones were spread far
Speaker 2: and wide. This is kind of an odd thing to say,
Speaker 2: but in December, I'm having a dental procedure done. A
Speaker 2: piece of cadaver bone is being implanted into my gum,
Speaker 2: which was great until I move in the same circles
Speaker 2: as you guys. Right. So one of my friends to
Speaker 2: call of three seconds to say you're going to have
Speaker 2: a haunted mouth, you know, And I thought about it
Speaker 2: for a second, and I'm like, that's awful, but it
Speaker 2: makes me wonder because the remains were spread so far
Speaker 2: and wide by the nocturnal critters of Fox Hollow, I
Speaker 2: would be surprised if that disturbance didn't cause some effect.
Speaker 2: That being said, though the land has been has been blessed,
Speaker 2: you know, there are people that have gone out there
Speaker 2: to try and mitigate the activity as best as possible.
Speaker 2: We're just going to have to wait and see.
Speaker 1: I know, I'm very curious. And also, how did you
Speaker 1: get a cadaver out? Like? Pig bone in my jaw?
Speaker 1: So I'm haunted by a pig?
Speaker 2: I can request the change?
Speaker 1: Yes, well I'm vegetarians. I was very conflicted. But anyways,
Speaker 1: ex I know that's it. I'm done, okay now. Because
Speaker 1: many of these victims remain nameless, I do worry and
Speaker 1: wonder if over time they are going to become more
Speaker 1: kind of especially like you know, now that they know
Speaker 1: that they can be heard. I wonder if over time
Speaker 1: that activity is going to ramp up in any way
Speaker 1: you know, in addition obviously to building things like, what
Speaker 1: else do you think could trigger this to kind of
Speaker 1: ramp up again, or you know, kind of put these
Speaker 1: people in these new houses or in the farm at
Speaker 1: risk of experiencing more extreme activity.
Speaker 2: It's a great question, and one thing is attention. So
Speaker 2: for example, a case I worked in the UK, the
Speaker 2: Black Monk of Pontifract case, was a Poltic guiz case
Speaker 2: dating back to the sixties, which was national news. All
Speaker 2: died down in the twenty tens. They made a movie
Speaker 2: about it called When the Lights Went Out. Interest in
Speaker 2: the House exploded. It is now the most requested paranormal
Speaker 2: rental venue in the United Kingdom. And that's sixty years
Speaker 2: after the initial Poltergeist outbreak, right, And.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's just it. People come in,
Speaker 1: they start talking about it and bringing it up, and
Speaker 1: I feel like that wakes up something, you know, Like
Speaker 1: I kind of drawing on another case, I think of Maplecroft,
Speaker 1: which is what you know, Elizabeth Lizzie Borden bought that
Speaker 1: house and now a family lives there and supposely it's
Speaker 1: not haunted at all. But when we were all investigating it,
Speaker 1: Elizabeth was very much like, hey, let's talk, you know.
Speaker 1: So it makes me wonder like if people start paying
Speaker 1: more attention to this, if it's going to draw out
Speaker 1: some type of activity, well.
Speaker 2: And it also may not be what it appears to be, because,
Speaker 2: as you know, being a very seasoned investigator, egre goals
Speaker 2: are a thing, thought forms are a thing, and sometimes
Speaker 2: these stories take on a life of their own. I
Speaker 2: think for any paranormal investigator, there is a danger in
Speaker 2: assuming that what we're being told is in fact the
Speaker 2: truth the techniques we use, no matter how how you
Speaker 2: attempt spirit communication with EVPs or whatever it may be.
Speaker 2: It's the equivalent of a nineteen nineties Yahoo Internet chat room. Right,
Speaker 2: you only have their word that they are who they
Speaker 2: say they are. There's no verification method.
Speaker 1: That is very fair. Now, do you think there is
Speaker 1: at some point a chance that some of these unidentified
Speaker 1: victims might be identified through paranormal evidence or investigation.
Speaker 2: I know that there are people out there that flatly
Speaker 2: refuse to accept that that can happen if we can
Speaker 2: get names. That's something I don't like the idea that
Speaker 2: these men are nameless, so many of them, and we
Speaker 2: don't have an accurate number, and we can't have an
Speaker 2: accurate number. We only have a minimum count because of
Speaker 2: the number of unique thumb bones that were discovered at
Speaker 2: Fox the number could be grossly higher. So if we
Speaker 2: can just get names that can be validated, that would
Speaker 2: be a huge start.
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, I'm hoping that with DNA and everything
Speaker 1: that they can start really gets into these bones and
Speaker 1: figuring out who these poor people are. You actually investigated there, correct, Now,
Speaker 1: what would you say was the most kind of disturbing
Speaker 1: type of activity or more at most, I don't want
Speaker 1: to say disturbing, but like the most kind of thought
Speaker 1: provoking bit of paranormal activity you experienced while there.
Speaker 2: There were several things. Actually, one of the more memorable
Speaker 2: is the pool. Now, the ball at Fox Hollow Farm
Speaker 2: is freezing. As I tell you about it, I can
Speaker 2: I'm getting the shivers, not the fact that so many
Speaker 2: men died in it, but of how cold it was.
Speaker 2: Because I was there in November, I believe it was.
Speaker 2: And the owner of the farm, Rob said he liked you, Richard.
Speaker 2: I like you, but it cost me hundreds of dollars
Speaker 2: to heat this pool, and it takes a few weeks,
Speaker 2: and I don't like you that much, so you can
Speaker 2: go in and I will roll back the pool cover.
Speaker 2: But the bull's going to be cold. And so I
Speaker 2: got into the pool. It was freezing cold. My teeth
Speaker 2: were chattering. We recorded the sound of a growl in
Speaker 2: the pool area, and more concerningly was a whispered EVP
Speaker 2: one word. And I should tell you that as we
Speaker 2: were in there, I'd been told by someone who knew
Speaker 2: her very well his favorite song was Blue by You
Speaker 2: by Linda Ronstack. So we played that song and I
Speaker 2: was swimming in the pool feeling very self conscious, and
Speaker 2: played back the audio afterwards, and just a single whispered word,
Speaker 2: and that word was Laura, which is my wife's name.
Speaker 2: And there is no Laura connected with Fox Hollow. There
Speaker 2: was no Laura present at the time. My wife's far
Speaker 2: too smart to go swim in haunted pools. And so
Speaker 2: that felt very personal to me, almost as if hey,
Speaker 2: I know things about your nearest and dearest.
Speaker 1: That's I mean, that's the beginning of a horror movie
Speaker 1: right there. To be honest, you know, you swimming in
Speaker 1: this freezing cold, haunted pool and the ghost is telling
Speaker 1: you the name of your wife's back at home. So
Speaker 1: that makes me wonder, do you think that's Herb or
Speaker 1: do you think that that's I mean, who is that?
Speaker 2: Who? That's a great question, isn't it. And I think
Speaker 2: it would be an assumption to say that it was Herb.
Speaker 2: I do not know who it was one of the
Speaker 2: other aspects. Because the ball and the kind of woods
Speaker 2: outside are the ground zero for the haunting, it makes
Speaker 2: sense that's where most of the lives were taken. I'd
Speaker 2: heard that Rob had brought a friend home from work
Speaker 2: one day, and he had a young son, and so,
Speaker 2: you know, it was just showing him around the place. Now,
Speaker 2: you don't tell young children we're going to the place
Speaker 2: where all the men were murdered, right, you don't. So
Speaker 2: they were wandering around the pool and this young kid
Speaker 2: is like, it's a cool, it's a bool, it's cool.
Speaker 2: And there is a pump room. And I happened to
Speaker 2: know that Herb had used that room to lay out
Speaker 2: the bodies of his victims once they were dead, before
Speaker 2: he disposed of them. And so Rob and his friend
Speaker 2: were walking around the pool. They passed the open pump
Speaker 2: room door and the little boy just said, sh the
Speaker 2: man's sleeping in there. So Rob's colleague was like, we're
Speaker 2: leaving and thanks and goodbye. Wow, off they go. So
Speaker 2: I go to instigate the pump room with some of
Speaker 2: my friends. We sit in there. It's noisy, you know,
Speaker 2: as you would imagine with all this machinery. I'm wearing
Speaker 2: a T shirt because I've gone back and it's now summer,
Speaker 2: and I can feel it now as we're talking, Amy,
Speaker 2: I felt fingertips just stroke my bear tricep in a
Speaker 2: very a caressing kind of way that just turns my stomach.
Speaker 2: I know what I felt absolutely wasn't a spider or
Speaker 2: a cobweb or anything of that nature. I don't know
Speaker 2: what it was, but it felt very much like fingertips
Speaker 2: a caress.
Speaker 1: Okay, now, okay, Jens, is the house does it look
Speaker 1: like it looked then? Have they changed anything?
Speaker 2: Almost nothing? It's almost identical, identical to how it was.
Speaker 2: Then Herb's desk is there, his library is there. Herb
Speaker 2: was a landrover, a ficionado. So there are land rover
Speaker 2: owner's manuals, Haynes manuals with handwritten notes by Herb in
Speaker 2: that library. You know, Rob the uses Herb's bathroom sleeps
Speaker 2: in herb's bed, like it's almost a.
Speaker 1: Time whin it's an actual bed.
Speaker 2: I do believe so. Yeah, the hose, the pullhose that's
Speaker 2: hanging in the pump room is the original one, which
Speaker 2: means that was actually the murder weapon in a number
Speaker 2: of cases, was never taken into evidence. It's still there.
Speaker 1: I find that alarming, you know, I feel like I
Speaker 1: would want to I wouldn't want to share anything with
Speaker 1: this person, like, and he's not the first person to
Speaker 1: do that either, right, Like it's changed hands a couple
Speaker 1: of times. Why do you think that is that? I'm
Speaker 1: not I mean no disrespect of this person. I'm sure
Speaker 1: they're lovely, But why is my question?
Speaker 2: Why keep things the way that they are? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Why keep his belongings or keep like why have any
Speaker 1: evidence of this horrible thing that happened there? And I
Speaker 1: feel like that might even, you know, affect the haunting
Speaker 1: in some way.
Speaker 2: You know, Rubs an interesting man, and I definitely count
Speaker 2: him as a friend. I had wanted to ask him,
Speaker 2: how do you live? Him? Man? How do you live
Speaker 2: in this house? I slept down in that but I couldn't.
Speaker 2: I could not live there. As beautiful as it is.
Speaker 2: I would be at the foot of the stairs by
Speaker 2: the pool, looking up to the kitchen, and I would
Speaker 2: just think how many men came down these stairs and
Speaker 2: never came back up. I couldn't get past that. Rob
Speaker 2: has his own little bubble, and to this day, at
Speaker 2: least the last time I spoke to him, does not
Speaker 2: believe in ghosts. His wife totally convinced. She's the lady
Speaker 2: who had the vacuum flex pulled out multiple times, you know.
Speaker 2: So I asked him, Rob, how do you live here?
Speaker 2: And he said, ah, you know, I kind of mind
Speaker 2: my own business, and I see things out of the
Speaker 2: corner of my eyes sometimes. His wife, on the other hand,
Speaker 2: is like, oh no, I see young men with no
Speaker 2: legs in the woods. I'm sold. I believe wow. And
Speaker 2: he's that's just his view on the world and it
Speaker 2: doesn't bother him. And maybe it's the fact that, you know,
Speaker 2: Rob does work in the coroner's field and has callouses
Speaker 2: that some people just don't. I don't mean that in
Speaker 2: a bad way, No, that's fair.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I just feel like I would not
Speaker 1: have a problem living in a house like that, but
Speaker 1: I would want to change things. I would not want
Speaker 1: to look at an area and think this was the
Speaker 1: last thing a number of people saw, you know, and
Speaker 1: I would probably obsess a little too much about what
Speaker 1: happened there. And so maybe that's why the activity isn't so,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of off the charts. It's because there
Speaker 1: is someone living there who is not kind of dwelling
Speaker 1: on it and not you know, hashing it out all
Speaker 1: the time.
Speaker 2: And I hope that it brings some stability. I mean,
Speaker 2: talk about brave people for a moment. When the Graves
Speaker 2: go on vacation, they have a house sitter. I don't
Speaker 2: know how much they pay her, but I don't think
Speaker 2: it's enough.
Speaker 1: Probably not. I mean, does everyone know what happened? Everyone
Speaker 1: local has to know.
Speaker 2: In fact, locally there was some resentment that the house
Speaker 2: still stands, and I understand this. There was some hope
Speaker 2: that they could put money together and in fact just
Speaker 2: demolish the house. They see it as a stain on
Speaker 2: the area, and I get that one hundred percent. I
Speaker 2: really really do. People sometimes come to that area just
Speaker 2: for to come by the gate of Fox Hollow, the
Speaker 2: wooden sign that was there doing the Baumeister ownership Fox
Speaker 2: Olive Farm. It's now iconic is still there, and so
Speaker 2: people will stop, they'll pose with pictures, all those kind
Speaker 2: of things. You can't go down the drive, nor should
Speaker 2: you try. You should not trespass there. But this is
Speaker 2: an area of interest for so many people, and I
Speaker 2: don't think that's ever going to go away, and I
Speaker 2: do understand why.
Speaker 1: People don't like it, right right, Okay, well, very fair,
Speaker 1: Well Richard, I want to thank you. Now tell me
Speaker 1: we'll tell everybody, like, how can people find you? I'm
Speaker 1: very familiar with your work, but please tell tell the
Speaker 1: world what you do and where to find mister Estep.
Speaker 2: Absolutely thanks for listening everyone. You can find me online
Speaker 2: at Richard Estep dot net, Facebook, Richard Deestep, author, Twitter,
Speaker 2: Stepa and I like to find cases like this, investigate
Speaker 2: them and try and tell their stories, and I hope
Speaker 2: some of you will choose to join me on that journey.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Richard is a writing machine. His books are amazing,
Speaker 1: and I think you are bringing some very important stories
Speaker 1: to light. So I really enjoy you and I want
Speaker 1: to thank you for coming, so thank you so much.
Speaker 1: The story of Herbert Baumeister is a tragedy, not only
Speaker 1: because of the lives he took, but also because he
Speaker 1: got away with it for so long. Who knows how
Speaker 1: many people would have been saved if the police had
Speaker 1: taken the pattern of missing persons. More seriously, we can
Speaker 1: never give the victims their lives back or restore the
Speaker 1: years they lost at Herb's hands, but by telling their
Speaker 1: story now, we hope to honor their loss and show
Speaker 1: our respect to their spirits. I'm Amy Bruney and this
Speaker 1: was Haunted Road. Thank you, guys. Haunted Road is hosted
Speaker 1: and written by me Amy Bruney, with additional research by
Speaker 1: Cassandra de Alba. This show is edited and produced by
Speaker 1: Rima Alkali, with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive producers
Speaker 1: Aaron Menke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Haunted Road is
Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Aaronmanke.
Speaker 1: Learn more about this show over at Grimandmild dot com,
Speaker 1: and for more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.