1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Back in the mid sixties, 2 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 1: my grandfather was in his pickup truck on a dark 3 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: Arkansas road. Large owl swept in front of his windshield. 4 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: It didn't so much scare him as it gave him 5 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: a feeling down the pit of his stomach that something 6 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: bad had happened. When he got back home, we got 7 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: a phone call and it was a sister in law. 8 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: His brother had died just four hours before. Rural folks 9 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: many times believed that an owl is an omen, particularly 10 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: if it crosses your path. Today's case on body Bags, 11 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about Kathleen Peterson, her husband and an owl. 12 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags. Joining me 13 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: today is my good friend Jackie Howard, executive producer of 14 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie, what can you tell 15 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,400 Speaker 1: us about Kathleen Peterson. Kathleen Peterson was a forty eight 16 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: year old American businesswoman and philanthropist, and she died under 17 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: suspicious circumstances in two thousand one. She was married to 18 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 1: writer Michael Peterson. They had been married about five years 19 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: at the time of her death. There's several theories out there, 20 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: Joe about what happened to Kathleen, and some of those 21 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: have been made into a new docuseries, a documentary. There's 22 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: lots of things floating out there, and I'd like to 23 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: look at this case today in three separate parts. Kathleen 24 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: was found dead at the bottom of a staircase. How 25 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: she got there is the subject of all of these theories. 26 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: So number one, we have the accidental option. Number two 27 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: we have a murder option. And number three you've already 28 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: alluded to, is that an owl had a part to 29 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: play in Kathleen's death. That evening, Kathleen and her husband 30 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: had been drinking some wine and Michael Peterson says he 31 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: is outside having a cigar. Kathleen's back in the house. 32 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: He says she combined the alcohol with valume, and that 33 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 1: is why Kathleen ended up at the bottom of a staircase, 34 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: bleeding out, ultimately to her death. Let's start with some 35 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 1: basic things, Joe. If you fall down a staircase twelve 36 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 1: to fifteen stairs, can that kill you, Well, most certainly 37 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: it could, Jackie, and you have to think about any 38 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: kind of impact like this trauma related is is going 39 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: to be depended upon not just where you strike, but 40 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: what you strike and kind of the composition and texture. 41 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: I'll give you an example. If you if you fall down, 42 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: say a set of metal stairs in some industrial complex, 43 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: that's gonna leave a much different type of insult to 44 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 1: the point of impact. That is, where that energy transfers 45 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 1: from the fall, say, for instance, in the back of 46 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: the head, where the head actually strikes that fixed object. 47 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: That's gonna look a lot different. Say, for instance, if 48 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: you have say a highly finished surface, like a wood 49 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: surface that's kind of rounded, this sort of thing like 50 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: the treads on the stairs, and in in a residential location, 51 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: that appearance is going to be completely different. And of course, 52 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: in the case of Kathleen Peterson, we're talking about a 53 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: very high end home in Durham, North Carolina. These stairs, 54 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: though they're the rear stairs, are finally constructed. The edges 55 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: are not real, real rough, if you know what I mean, 56 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: they're finished, polished. That sort of thing. Now, that can 57 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: make for kind of a tricky, a tricky thing to 58 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: ambulate across. And you've mentioned just a moment ago that 59 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: she did have alcohol and boarder. As a matter of fact, 60 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: it is like point zero set of and I think 61 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: is her alcohol limit that they determined at autopsy, and 62 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: she did in fact have valume on board. But let's 63 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: keep in mind one thing as we kind of go 64 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: through this discussion. Michael Peterson stated that she left and 65 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: walked into the house. It's not like you know, many 66 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: people would say she was knee walking drunk, because she's not. 67 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 1: Point zero seven even with valium on board is not 68 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: going to inhibit you to the point where you're out 69 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: of control. She had the ability to ambulate when he 70 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: last saw her. Okay, so we know that Michael was outside, 71 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: so he did not, according to his comments to the police, 72 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: know that she fell. When he came inside and found 73 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 1: her at the bottom of the stairs, there was a 74 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: lot of blood around, which would indicate that she had 75 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: a head wound. So he calls N one, tells the 76 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: nine one one operator that she is still breathing. So 77 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: what would account for that large volume of blood. It 78 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: goes certainly to a head strike. We've talked about this 79 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 1: before him on body bags, and I'll say it again, 80 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: you know, for this purpose, because I can't I can't 81 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 1: think of another case that it it's going to carry 82 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: as much weight in as as with the Kathleen Peterson case, 83 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: and that is the head is the most vascular area 84 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: of the body. And it's not you know, it's not 85 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: just the features of the face that require tremendous amount 86 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,679 Speaker 1: of blood supply, but it is in fact the brain. 87 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: So you've got this huge network of vessels that run 88 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: throughout the head. And that's why many times when you 89 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: have a head strike and your head opens up, you 90 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: bleed copiously. There's tremendous amounts of blood coming forth. And 91 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: it's not surprising that he walked in and found essentially 92 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: at the base of the stairs. Kind of this complex. 93 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: You've you've kind of got a turn in the staircase. 94 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: There's of a many landing down there, and you've got 95 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: blood all over the top surface. You've got it on 96 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 1: the facing of the stairs kind of where it's boxed 97 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: then and then you've got it underneath the lip. You've 98 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: also got some on the walls as well. Tell let 99 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 1: me stop you for just a second. When Michael comes 100 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: in and finds her body, we don't have an idea 101 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: of how long that she has been lying at the 102 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: bottom of the stairs. So if she has a head wound, 103 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: for there to have been this amount of blood that 104 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 1: we are told was there. If she just has a 105 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: head wound, is her blood going to spill out at 106 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: that kind of a rate. Yeah, yeah, most certainly it can, 107 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: because you know, that's an indication first off, that are 108 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: hard is still beating at least during during this moment. Remember, 109 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: we have three states when we begin to talk about 110 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: death investigation. We have anti mortem, which means before, we 111 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: have perimortem, which means in the throes of like right 112 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,799 Speaker 1: in the middle, and then of course we have post 113 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: mortem all right, which is after death. So in that 114 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: anti mortem and perimortem phase, individuals still have agonal respirations. 115 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: They will still have circulation going on. So all the 116 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 1: while you have that arterial flow, and in some of 117 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: the venus see page to where you know you've got 118 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: the blood, it's still trying to return go back through 119 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: the through the entire system. You know, it has to 120 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: cycle through the lungs and back through the heart and 121 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: all these sorts of things to be pumped back out. 122 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: So this is still going on. So blood is actually 123 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: emanating from these particular areas. But Jackie, the the interesting 124 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: thing about this, it's it's one thing, when you have 125 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: a head strike and you have a single injury, and 126 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: as I've stated, you're going to bleed out profusely from 127 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: that one location. And of course a lot of that 128 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: is deepened upon the size of the of the insult 129 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: as well. But Jackie in in Kathleen's case, she's got 130 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: seven one, two, three, four, five, six, seven very nasty 131 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: lacerations that essentially involved the backside of her head. So 132 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: for me as a death investigator, if you're trying to 133 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: sell me on this idea, when you fall and gravity 134 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: is drawing you down towards the treads of that staircase 135 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: and you impact on that particular area, that is not 136 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: something I'm going to buy. This is something that would 137 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: have required a forceful attack. It would have involved multiple strikes. Now, also, 138 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: if you're trying to tell me, well, she went back 139 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: up the stairs and fell not just once but twice, 140 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: you know, multiple times, I'm not buying that either. And 141 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: these are very very centralized insults that she sustained to 142 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: the back of your But you're talking about the amount 143 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: of blood that was at the scene, Joe, even if 144 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: she had seven lacerations or wounds, how much blood as 145 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: your heart pumps is actually going to come out of 146 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: those lacerations, I mean, short of cutting an artery or 147 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: or a venus. When we think of large amounts of 148 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: blood gush, how much blood are we actually talking about 149 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 1: coming from those wounds? Quite a bit, um, quite a bit. 150 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: And and just so our listeners understand. Um, you know, 151 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: when you hear when you hear people holding forth on 152 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 1: ideas about the amounts of blood that you see at 153 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: the scene, it can be very very uh difficult to 154 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: quantify that amount. And a lot of that is depending 155 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: upon the surface where the blood actually settles on. Um. 156 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: You know, if you're talking you know, for instance, like 157 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: a carpeted surface, there's no way to quantify that because 158 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: you know you've got multiple layers there. Then you think about, 159 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: you know, to what degree has the blood dried, And 160 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: the drying of blood is an issue in this particular 161 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: case as well. There are a couple of people that 162 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: actually stated at the scene they saw dried blood. So 163 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: that involves a time factor. Um. You know, where you 164 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:04,079 Speaker 1: think about the elements of of the in dwelling environmental conditions, 165 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 1: you know, relative humidity, temperature, all these sorts of things, 166 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: and also um, you have no idea uh as to 167 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,719 Speaker 1: the depth of the blood that's being distributed all over 168 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 1: the place. Uh, you know, because depth is important when 169 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: we're measuring volume. You know, let's just think about that. 170 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: You know, the depth of say, for instance, a swimming pool. 171 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: We can look in the shallow in and it appears 172 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: to have quite a bit of water there. You go 173 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 1: to the deep end, it's even it's even more. It's 174 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: kind of simple science, but you have to understand there's 175 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: no way to measure that at a scene relative to 176 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: a pool. So your ability to quantify the amount of 177 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: blood that was lost at the scene, even though it 178 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: is appearance at least is a large pool, you don't 179 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: understand the thickness, and of course that follows relative volume 180 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: as well. So going along with the amount of blood 181 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: that was found in the house, let's look at this forensically. 182 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: When the police arrived, they first believe that this is 183 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: an accident, that Kathleen has fallen down the stairs based 184 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,839 Speaker 1: on what her husband has said. So we find forensically 185 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: that a lot of things are going on that impact 186 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 1: what you should have been able to tell happened. Police 187 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: did not cordon off the scene immediately we had the 188 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: sun come in and he tracked blood as he came 189 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: through to the kitchen. There were blood smears on the 190 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: wall that police were not originally sure where they came from. 191 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: And you had neighbors and friends coming over to see 192 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 1: what was going on as they saw the police activity. 193 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: So you have lots of people impacting your crime scene? 194 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: What do you do? Yeah, you're absolutely right. And this 195 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: goes back to you know, my hero that I've mentioned 196 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: several times, ed muhan Lecard you know, uh, Edmond, you 197 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: know plainly stated that every contact leaves a trace. That 198 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 1: everybody brings something to a scene that has the potential 199 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: to bespoil this environment you know where, Uh, And it 200 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: could be any number of things. It could be the 201 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: dirt on their shoes. It could be the shoes that 202 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,559 Speaker 1: they're wearing and the texture of those shoes and how 203 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: it transfers the blood that's in dwelling at the scene 204 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: they step in and transfers it to another location. It 205 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: could be them. Hey, you know we were talking about 206 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: the volume of blood. Uh, you don't know what's going 207 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: on outside. So when you open that door multiple times, 208 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: you can have wind that blows through there. You can 209 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: have any number of trace elements that come in there. 210 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: You can wind can impact uh, the scene itself, and 211 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: not to mention, you don't have accountability relative to who 212 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: is engaging and interacting with the decedent as well. Now 213 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: we do know that two a m t s arrived 214 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: at the scene, then you have the police and then 215 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: you have this kind of cast that comes in afterwards. 216 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: You know, it's at that point in time. And it's 217 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: one of the things that we teach young police officers 218 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: uh that when they arrive at a scene, it's so 219 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: very important uh to actually secure that area and keep 220 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: everybody out. Then you realize how hard it is to 221 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: tell family members to stay out of the scene, and 222 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: that's very difficult. But sometimes the police have to stand 223 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: up and say no, you cannot come in here at 224 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: this point in time. And it's hard to know when 225 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: this transitioned from, say, for instance, an emergent event you know, 226 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: where you're trying to render aid, to when this actually 227 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: became identified as a crime scene. Those are two different 228 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: uh mill us, if you will. It's kind of a 229 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: fancy word for the environment in which this is all occurring. 230 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: So when is it that they geared back and they said, hey, 231 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: well we need everybody to exit as quickly as you 232 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: possibly can. Everybody step out, and it's at that point 233 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: in time that he had to cordin off the area. 234 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: You have to sequester those individuals that actually made contact 235 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: in the scene because they're gonna walk off and they 236 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: might have evidence on them. You know, we go back 237 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: to this idea of shoe prints. There was actually a 238 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 1: shoeprint that was found on Kathleen's sweatpants. I would want 239 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: to know the provenance of that of that shoeprint. I'd 240 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: like to know the point of origin relative to that shoeprint, 241 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: you know, because Michael's shoes and socks were actually on 242 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 1: the floor adjacent to her body, So how did that 243 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: dynamic occur? I want accountability for everybody it's there, because 244 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: everybody that touches this thing actually has the ability to 245 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: destroy the entire case before it even gets started. You know, 246 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: as a death investigator, you show up at the scene, 247 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: you know you're begging for information from the dead. I 248 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: know that sounds quite bizarre, but you know, there's that 249 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: old adage that we always talk about um of We 250 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: speak for the those who can no longer speak for themselves, 251 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: and we read things into the life that they had 252 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: led the during the events of their death, and certainly 253 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: what happened to the bodies afterwards. And that's important here 254 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: in uh Kathleen Peterson's death, Jackie, there's a big factor, 255 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: Joe that I want to talk about. Going back to 256 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: the blood just a little bit. The next theory that 257 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: we're looking at here is the fact that Kathleen could 258 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: have been murdered by her husband. So if Kathleen did 259 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: not fall down the stairs and cause these seven lacerations 260 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: as you described, to her head, then that means she 261 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: would have been it in the head. She would have 262 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: been bludgeoned. And I find it very interesting, Joe, that 263 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: there was one huge piece of evidence that points to 264 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: the fact that she really could not have fallen down 265 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: the stairs and remained in that supine position. What was it? 266 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: That's the fact that she's got blow on the soles 267 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: of her feet. You know, unless you want to go 268 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: off chasing rabbits, theoretically, you begin to think about this 269 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: and you think, well, you know, did some never do 270 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: well come up and paint the soles of her feet 271 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: with her own blood? And Obviously that's not going to 272 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: be the case. So how how do we arrive at 273 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: a position where the blood winds up on the soles 274 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: of her feet? And the only explanation is that after 275 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: she was struck and blood began to seep from her 276 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: head or pour from her head, or you know, actually 277 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: spray from her head if it's an arterial strike, then 278 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: we have to believe that she walked, she walked through 279 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: a pool of blood, her own blood there that's distributed 280 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: on the treads of the stairs, that there was no 281 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: awareness on her part that she is essentially under attack. 282 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: For me, you know, I visualized her in this environment 283 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: and she's standing there, she struck, or perhaps someone comes 284 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 1: in from the top above her and strikes her. As 285 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: she's at the base of the stairs and blood begins 286 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: to seet down, she gets it onto the soles of 287 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:16,199 Speaker 1: her feet. One other indicator here that's absolutely fascinating to 288 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 1: me is the fact that when her hands are actually examined, 289 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: they find bits of hair caught on her hands and 290 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: dried their uh visa via the blood, And there's actually 291 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: contused areas on the back sides of her hands, which 292 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: you know, almost gives you the impression of someone raising 293 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: their hands above their head. They have an awareness they're 294 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,360 Speaker 1: being struck in the head. Right, just follow me here 295 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: and that area where you're stowing. You know, what, what 296 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: do we do when we sense that we have injured 297 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: our head? One of the it's a natural reaction to 298 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: reach up and place our hand there to check ourselves 299 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: or to protect ourselves. Was that what Kathleen was doing. 300 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: And in the interim, blood is transferring to her fingers, 301 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 1: the pumps her hands and she pulls away in her 302 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: own hair is caught there. So you've got this very 303 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: dynamic situation that's taking place there at the base of 304 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: that staircase. Jack. So then we need to move on 305 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: and look at what possibly could have caused those lacerations, 306 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: since we now don't believe they were caused by the fall. 307 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: One theory that was raised was the lack of what's 308 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:27,239 Speaker 1: called a blowpoke. It is a fireplace utensil that that 309 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: could have been the murder weapon. So what kind of 310 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: a wound would a fireplace utensil cause? And is it 311 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: consistent that it would have caused seven lacerations as you described, Yeah, Yeah, 312 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 1: there's a high probability that it could you're talking about 313 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 1: a cylindrical shaped object, which essentially is a metal tube. Um, 314 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: it would you would have to be able to utilize 315 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 1: this instrument so that you could uh deliver energy from 316 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 1: a single strike where you would raise it, say, for instance, 317 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 1: above your head or swinging it from the side, and 318 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: hit a point of impact at that at that moment 319 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: in time. And what happens That energy that you're generating. 320 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: Let's just say, for instance, you're raising above your head 321 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: and you're striking downward. That energy that you're generating by 322 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: that force as you're bringing that thing down onto the 323 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 1: top of her head transfers to that point of impact 324 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 1: along the shaft of that blowpoke or an object similar 325 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: to that, and it transfers to the skin. And what 326 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: happens then, well, it results in these lacerations. And just 327 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: kind of on a little aside here. Um, many people 328 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: get very confused when they hear the term laceration. My 329 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: friends in the medical community, they will use laceration very broadly. 330 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 1: Somebody comes into an emergency room, You'll hear and all 331 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 1: the you know, the medical shows and whatnot, and they'll 332 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: say they've got a lack Well that that's an abbreviation 333 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 1: for a laceration, but it could you know that could 334 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: endo it also a sharp fourth injury. This is not 335 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 1: sharp force, and how do we delineate that. Well, when 336 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: we examine these types of injuries and the morgue, and 337 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: you have a blunt force laceration where someone is struck, 338 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 1: what will happen is that it will generate, first off, 339 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: a very jagged wound. It will be very irregular. The 340 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: edges or what it referred to as the margins will 341 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: not be neat because there's actually a tearing. And if 342 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: anyone wants to get an idea as to what this 343 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: looks like, if anyone at home has like say, simply 344 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: a pencil and an orange, you take the orange and 345 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: you place the shaft of the pencil onto the surface 346 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 1: of the orange and you press down. What happens, well, 347 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 1: the orange begins to rise around the sides of the 348 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: shaft of that pencil. That's basically what happens with the laceration. 349 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 1: The skin as it's impacted, kind of wraps itself for 350 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: just a moment around the sides of that cylindrical object, 351 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: and the skin then begins to rip or tear. And 352 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: that's why you get this real nasty looking injury that 353 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: rises up. Now, if this we're safe, for instance, um 354 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: ma chetty wound or an axe or something like that 355 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: that has a milled edge. Edges are gonna be very 356 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: very neat it all. It's not necessarily all look like surgery, 357 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: but there will be very well defined the forensic pathologists 358 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: call it defined margins. With this, you're not gonna have 359 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: that because not only is the skin gonna tear, guess 360 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: what else is gonna happen. You'll get these little abraided 361 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 1: areas along the edge, and that gives you an indication 362 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: that something has been torn at that moment time. Now, 363 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: could it be generated from fall? Yeah, but it's gonna 364 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: be a single impact. I don't know of anybody worth 365 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: their salt out there in forensic practice that's gonna say 366 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: that an individual would sustain this many lacerations from a 367 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: single fall. Generally you're gonna see one maybe maybe too, 368 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: but you're gonna fall a great distance in order to 369 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 1: make that happen. So you brought up blunt force versus 370 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: sharp force injuries. But Kathleen, with even with all of 371 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: these lacerations in her skull, she didn't have any skull 372 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: fractures and there was no brain swelling. Wouldn't you expect 373 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: that in a blunt force trauma. Well, I think everybody 374 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: automatically flees to this idea that if you have a 375 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: laceration and that's associated with blunt force trauma, that there's 376 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: going to be, say, for instance, a depressed skull fracture 377 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: underlying that laceration. And that's just not the case. And 378 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: when you begin to combine this with uh, the other 379 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: elements that we have going on, and let's just let's 380 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 1: just play Devil's advocate here for a second. Let's say 381 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: she was just struck once and it split her head open. 382 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 1: Now we could say that she might bleed to death, 383 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: but it would take a much longer amount of time. 384 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: What begins to take place here, though, after all of 385 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: these strikes, is you have a schemia that's letting in 386 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 1: and so you have an individual that's losing let me interrupt, 387 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: a schemia. What is that? A schemia is a condition 388 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: that arises from a lack of oxygen aated blood that's 389 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: being uh supplied to the brain. So essentially it's being 390 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: shunted or it's being um impeded to making it back 391 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,199 Speaker 1: through the system because you're bleeding out. Essentially you have 392 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: a big defect in your body. And in Kathleen's you 393 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: know circumstances, she had seven of these things, Jackie. It's 394 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: not just one, she had seven. So she's gonna bleed 395 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 1: out from these multiple areas. And listen, the longer someone 396 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: is down in this environment where they've got what are 397 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: referred to as just like agonal respirations, their hearts still pumping, 398 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: and you just allow them to lay there, you've got 399 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: more time for them to kind of dwindle away. Now, 400 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 1: one of the things that the forensic pathologists stated in 401 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 1: this case, that's that's quite fascinating. You know people have wondered, well, 402 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: you know there's there's no hemorry essentially on the brain. 403 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: There was some uh, subarachnoid that was there that arises 404 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: from a concussive event. Okay, I'm sorry, subarachnoid, check out 405 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: of let me say what again. Yeah, So with subarachnoid, 406 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: the arachnoid surface of the brain is actually the surface 407 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 1: of the brain, as opposed to say subdural subdural dura, 408 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: meaning the sack that the brain is essentially encased in 409 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: and your cerebral spinal fluid kind of circulates around it. 410 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: You can get actually a subdural hematoma, which is hemorrhages 411 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: trapped in between the dura sack and the surface of 412 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: the brain, which has the arachnoid surface. The arachnoid surface 413 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: is actually the surface of the brain, but this is 414 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: inside of the brain. And this has arisen from what 415 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: the forensic pathologist has characterized as a concussive injury. And 416 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: she didn't just have one concussive injury, Jackie, she had 417 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: multiple concussive injuries. And of course this is the opinion 418 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: of the forensic pathologists because there's not a lot of 419 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: evidence to bear this out. She is essentially speculating what 420 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: she can do because she is a court qualified expert, 421 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: that she died as a result of multiple concussive injuries 422 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,880 Speaker 1: to the brain. So you know, you think about, well, 423 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: what is a concussion. Will anybody that has ever heard 424 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: allowed boom that goes off and it kind of rattles 425 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 1: your cage just for a second, that's a concussion, uh, 426 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 1: concussive event. So you've got her brain that is reacting 427 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: to these blows where her brain is literally kind of 428 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: um a sloshing back and forth inside of her skull. 429 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: She's disoriented at that moment time she goes down, maybe 430 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: into an unconscious state. And all the while, all the while, 431 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 1: her heart is still beating, her lungs are still working. 432 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: But guess what. The blood is not going where it 433 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: should go. The blood is going all over the floor. 434 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: The blood is going all over the treads at the stairs, 435 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: and that's what led to her death. One other point 436 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: to consider Joe and talking about these blunt force injuries 437 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 1: to her head, if she had fallen down the stairs 438 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: as was stated, you would have expected there to be 439 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: some kind of injury to the neck. I would have 440 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,479 Speaker 1: to think being hit with not very much accuracy if 441 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: you're just swinging at someone's head, you know, could hit 442 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 1: other parts of the body. So what are we looking 443 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: at in form of any kind of neck injuries that 444 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: Kathleen had. Yeah, you know, you think about this is 445 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: a very dynamic event when somebody falls down a set 446 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: of stairs. And one of the things that you know 447 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: when we check for this at the scene, actually, as 448 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 1: medical legal death investigators, we we look for what's referred 449 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: to as crepitus, and crepitus is kind of a I 450 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: don't want to put anybody off by saying this, but hey, 451 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: this is body backs. This is what we talked about. 452 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: There's kind of a crunchiness that takes place in the neck, 453 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 1: and if the neck is broken, I'm just talking about 454 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: the initial external examination. You can actually feel this kind 455 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 1: of crunchiness in the neck and it gives you an 456 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: indication that something is wrong. Of course, that has to 457 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: be verified, you know, just prior to autopsy at the 458 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 1: morgue where you're going to do an X ray of 459 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 1: the body. But in Kathleen's case, there's no evidence of 460 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: a broken neck. All of her vertebral bodies were intact. Okay, However, 461 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,360 Speaker 1: I'm not concerned with the back of her neck, Jackie. 462 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,719 Speaker 1: I'm what's fascinating to me about this whole case is 463 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: one little injury that doesn't get talked about a lot, 464 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: and that is this cartilaginous fracture that's taken place on 465 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: the thyroid cartilage. And if everybody at home will essentially 466 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: take your index finger and feel on the left side 467 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 1: of your throat where say, for instance, your your Adam's 468 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: apple is, and you just go above it, we say 469 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: in in in our in our parlance, we say superior. 470 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: There is a little old bitty area up here. You 471 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: can kind of feel it through your skin, called corn 472 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: you And it's a little cartilaginous body, you know, Jackie, 473 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: she had a fracture. She had a fracture there. The 474 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: cartilage was actually fractured. People don't think about cartilaginous fractures, 475 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: but they do occur, and in my experience at least, 476 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: and this is way way up in the neck, Jackie, 477 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 1: I mean way up. We're not here's here's that infamous 478 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 1: little bone. We're not quite at the level of the highoid, 479 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: but we're just below it, okay. And so at that level, 480 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: at that level, that little feature is actually fractured. You 481 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: know what takes to do that. It takes pressure, Jackie. 482 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: It takes pressure directly applied to their or. I guess 483 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: you could say that if someone was struck uh with 484 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: an instrument, you might could achieve that, But what they're 485 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: seen at the scene doesn't necessarily match up, for instance, 486 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: with uh, this blowpoke striking that area. So I don't know. 487 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: I think that many people that might look at this 488 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: might think that direct pressure was applied to that specific area, 489 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: you know, maybe consistent with a couple of hands, such 490 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: as in a case of throttling, or where the hand 491 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: is configured into a ce essentially with a thumb dominant 492 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: on the on the right side and the fingers digging 493 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: into the neck on the left side and applying direct 494 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: pressure to that area until that little area of cartilage snaps. Now, 495 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: how in the world does it? Perfectly healthy woman, and 496 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: she was healthy. Her coronary ardors were almost completely clear, Jackie. 497 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: She has not had a heart attack, she has not 498 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: had a stroke, She doesn't really have that much in 499 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: dwelling natural disease going on. How does she how does 500 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: she sustain that specific injury? You know, we can talk 501 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: about the back of the head all day long, but 502 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: how does this anterior or front of the neck insult occur? 503 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: She did not have any bruising around her neck, did 504 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: she know? She She didn't nothing that was truly significant 505 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: in this particular case, and so that would uh, you know, 506 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: she had several other areas of insult that were she 507 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: had some injuries on her back, she had some injuries 508 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: on her arms, and of course, you know, as I mentioned, 509 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: just a moment ago. There were those insults of course, 510 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: on the backs of her hands where she had clutched, 511 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: you know, hair in her hands that was dried in 512 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: there and kind of stuck to the surface, or what 513 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: referred to as the palmer aspects of the hands where 514 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: the hair had come away from her head. It goes 515 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: without saying I think that injuries can tell us a 516 00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: lot about a case and about what occurred, uh in 517 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: the moments just prior to death. But you know, Jackie, 518 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, in Kathleen Peterson's case, we've got 519 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: so many injuries, there are so many insults, and to 520 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: say that this is a dynamic case I think is 521 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: rather understatement of the facts. It is Joe. In fact, 522 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: some would say it's fanciful in some aspects because of 523 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:28,959 Speaker 1: this third theory that Kathleen Peterson's death was caused by, 524 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: of all things, an owl. All you have to do 525 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: is google the owl theory and you'll find more than 526 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: you ever want to know. It has been put out 527 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: there that Kathleen was attacked by an owl which caused 528 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: her fault. Some are saying that her injuries on her 529 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: head came from talents. How do you address that Joe. Well, 530 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: first off, I would address it by saying that none 531 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: of that evidence has ever made it into court. That 532 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: the genesis of that evidence, actually it comes arises from 533 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: a neighbor of the Peterson's who happens to be an 534 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: attorney in Durham. That he came up with this idea 535 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: that perhaps it was in fact, uh particular species of 536 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: owl that attacked Kathleen Peterson as she was running into 537 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: the house and suddenly, uh, you know, the awl may 538 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: or may not have chased her, she tumbled down the 539 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,479 Speaker 1: staircase and struck her head. There was, um, there was 540 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: a single owl feather that was entered into uh, entered 541 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: into evidence, as I think probably an incidental finding. And 542 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: then you know, I think kind of use the word fanciful. 543 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: I think that it is fanciful, um that this has 544 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: been uh you know, the foundation for this, this idea 545 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: that a bird of prey attacked her at this particular time. Now, 546 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: I will say this. You know, owl's are known to 547 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: move around at night, hence the term night owl. Okay, 548 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: they move around night. They're kind of nocturnal animals. So 549 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: I guess you could put that forward. But again you've 550 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: got to give me something more than that, because they're 551 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: saying that these injuries that she has sustained on the 552 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: back of her head, uh may may be consistent with 553 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: the talents of an owl, where essentially the skin has 554 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: been uh insized by these talents and in torn and 555 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: you have these evulsions, and evulsions are part and parcel 556 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: of lacerations, and it gives you an idea of the 557 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: amount of force that was used. One in particular is 558 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,719 Speaker 1: rather than ghastly, there's there's kind of a triangular shaped 559 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: evulsion that measures several centimeters in length and it it's 560 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: kind of pie shaped, um, you know, like a slice 561 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: of pizza essentially, and it's flapped back over. I don't 562 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 1: think that that's indicative of, say, for instance, a bird 563 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 1: of prey, but it goes to the ferocity with which 564 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: she was struck. You know, this is a tearing event 565 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,799 Speaker 1: that takes place with this blunt force trauma where the 566 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: cylindrical object is being driven down onto the external surface 567 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: of her of her scalp, and it tears it away. 568 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: And the reason you kind of get this pie shape, 569 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,720 Speaker 1: if you will, is the fact that she was struck 570 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: once on one side and then there was another strike 571 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 1: that took place almost immediately adjacent, and it led to 572 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 1: this tearing away a tremendous amount of force. It wasn't 573 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: significant enough so that it fractured the external table of skull, 574 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: but it was significant enough so that the skin itself 575 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: was was ripped away. So I find all this information 576 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: that you're giving me about the lacerations and the injuries 577 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: to the skull fascinating. But I've got to go back 578 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: to the blood, the blood amount that is found on 579 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: the floor. There is blood, as you said, on the 580 00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: bottom of her feet, there's blood on the wall, and 581 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,439 Speaker 1: you kind of alluded to and we we got away 582 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: from it earlier, the difference between blood spatter and and 583 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: blood droplets. How is all of this going to come 584 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: into plagia because we have heard contradicting evidence about what 585 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: happened to that blood was the blood smear on the 586 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: wall and effort to wipe it away? Was the blood 587 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 1: droplets aspiration from her breathing out blood from her lungs? 588 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: Address that for me, I have to say, as a 589 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: forensic scientist, Um, you have to be you have to 590 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: take great care when you move forward with blood stained evidence. 591 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: That it is written in stone as to how you 592 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 1: apply your assessment, and let me kind of break it 593 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 1: down for you, so so our listeners understand. Let's say, 594 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: for instance, you're talking about a latent print, okay, where 595 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: print has been left behind by a suspect. Okay, we 596 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: dust that area, we find the print, we raise it, 597 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: and we lift it. Okay. Then we have a database, 598 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 1: a template, if you will, that we will go back 599 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,760 Speaker 1: and we will examine that print, see if it matches 600 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: up with anything, and then we can begin to apply 601 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 1: quantities or values to that print, and in the end 602 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 1: we have almost a mathematical assessment that validates that print. 603 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: You don't have that with blood stain. You don't what 604 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: template are you going to use? Now we talk about 605 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 1: blood stain in terms of low velocity, medium velocity, and 606 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: high velocity, and kind of that dynamic that takes place 607 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: as blood is sprayed about or spread about in those 608 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: sorts of things. Um, how are you going to measure 609 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: that and come back with a consistent template. And that's 610 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: one of the reasons I think it was all the 611 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 1: way back in two thousand nine Jackie Um there was 612 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: actually a federal study that was done relative to to 613 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,880 Speaker 1: blood stained evidence and questioning kind of the science behind it. 614 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: And you know, you're gonna have two separate people that 615 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,320 Speaker 1: will interpret this, and they can interpret it any number 616 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: of ways, because there is no hard and fast rule 617 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: to constructing or reconstructing a scene relative to the dynamics 618 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: of the blood stained. So you know, you can look 619 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 1: at a wipe or swipe on a wall and you 620 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: can get an idea that, yeah, probably something there happened 621 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: relative to somebody attempting to clean up. But when you 622 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: get what in this case would be medium velocity, which 623 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 1: is consistent with uh, someone swinging a bat, swinging a hammer, uh, 624 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: swinging a cylindrical metallic cylindrical object, you can generate that 625 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: kind of velocity because of the leverage that's involved in 626 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: this generating that injury, and you'll get these kind of 627 00:37:55,719 --> 00:38:00,319 Speaker 1: particulate bits of of spray that are deposited it all 628 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: over the place. With that, with that, you begin to think, well, 629 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: what could be the point of origin. Well, you know, 630 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,280 Speaker 1: the prosecution said, well, this is definitely arises from a strike, 631 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,959 Speaker 1: multiple strikes, But then how are you going to talk 632 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: about the overlay, you know, and the dynamic of that 633 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: The movement of it in this kind of three dimensional 634 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: environment where you've got blood that's overlaying other blood stains 635 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: and this sort of thing. Then you've got the defense. 636 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: I think one of their witnesses got up on stand 637 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,320 Speaker 1: Jackie and said, oh, well, the blood that you're seeing 638 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,439 Speaker 1: on the wall here, this is aspirate. This is coming 639 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 1: about as a result of her coughing up blood and 640 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: spraying it onto the wall. Well, okay, I've seen that 641 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: before famously. I saw it in the Jodi Arius case 642 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 1: which Travis Alexander all over the sink. It was bloody aspirate, 643 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 1: and that's medium velocity. It's very fine. But here's the problem. 644 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: Her airway had no blood in it. Her lungs had 645 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: no blood in them, and they were normal way. It's 646 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,799 Speaker 1: not like they were heavily congested. In order to get 647 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: blood into the airway, in order to aspirate and spray 648 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: it out, you have to have a point of origin. 649 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 1: This was there. There was no source for the blood 650 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,280 Speaker 1: to have been sprayed. So that again is a big problem. 651 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 1: And I think, in my opinion at least, that both 652 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,800 Speaker 1: the prosecution's blood analysis and the defenses blood analysis that 653 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 1: cancel one another. Out in this case, so all were 654 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: left with at the end of the day. In Kathleen 655 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 1: Peterson's case is the assessment of the injuries. How did 656 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: those injuries come about? And I can tell you, based 657 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 1: upon what I've seen thus far and based upon my experience, 658 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: I have to tell you I don't think an al 659 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: did this well. Joeah, jury did the exact same thing 660 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,840 Speaker 1: that you're doing here. Weighed all three theories and came 661 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 1: up with murder. Michael Peterson was convicted and sentenced to 662 00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: life in prison for the murder of his wife. However, 663 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,919 Speaker 1: in two thousand and twelve, he was granted a retrial 664 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,359 Speaker 1: after it was uncovered that a witness for the prosecution 665 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: had given false evidence under oath. Michael released from jail 666 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,439 Speaker 1: in two thousand and seventeen. That was about eighty nine 667 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 1: months in prison, and after that he entered an Alfred plea, 668 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:22,319 Speaker 1: which means he was able to maintain his innocence and 669 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 1: he would be sentenced to his time served and no 670 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,360 Speaker 1: further charges would be made against him. Joe, Yeah, you're right, Jackie, 671 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,879 Speaker 1: And I think you know, reflectively, you begin to think 672 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:36,799 Speaker 1: about the swirl of interest in this particular case and 673 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: the public is rightly, rightly interested in this because you know, 674 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 1: even as someone that I considered myself to be rather 675 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 1: seasoned when it comes to death investigation, I have to 676 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,320 Speaker 1: tell you, in all of my years, I've never encountered 677 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 1: a case quite this complex, certainly one that I've never 678 00:40:55,640 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: been Um, JOSEPHS got more and this is body packs.