1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: I think it's very natural for humans to be attracted 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: to multiple people at the same time. And while I 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: don't think everybody must be Polly, I think everybody should 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: ask themselves what it is that they actually desire and 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: what stops them from being able to voice that. 6 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 2: Today we're taking on polyamory, specifically our guests experience with 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 2: it and what experimenting in her stable relationship taught her 8 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 2: about herself. I'm hopewitdered and welcome to boys over a 9 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 2: space where we're learning and unlearning all the myths we're 10 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:54,279 Speaker 2: taught about love and relationships. Recently, I listened to a 11 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 2: podcast that made me question everything I thought I knew 12 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: about what makes a stable relationship. The podcast is called 13 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 2: I Feel That Way Too, and it's hosted by speaker, storyteller, 14 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 2: and activist Michelle Mietjung Kim. In an episode titled am 15 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 2: I Supposed to sleep with one person for the rest 16 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 2: of My Life? Michelle tells the story of how she 17 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 2: asked her husband if he'd be open to divorce, which 18 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 2: led to a discussion about opening their marriage. This might 19 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 2: seem unconventional, but it was a turning point for Michelle, 20 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 2: who felt that as a queer Asian American woman, it 21 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 2: was important to communicate what she wanted and explore her 22 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 2: sexual fluidity even while in a committed relationship. After hearing 23 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 2: all of this, I knew I wanted to talk to 24 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 2: Michelle to get even further into her story. How did 25 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 2: she build a relationship stable enough to introduce polyamory, did 26 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 2: she find the sexual freedom she was seeking? Why is 27 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 2: polyamory still so misunderstood, and where are she and her 28 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 2: husband at now? Michelle, Welcome to Boy Sober. Thank you 29 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 2: so much for being here. 30 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited. 31 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: Of course today I want to talk to you a 32 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 2: little bit about like love and romance and your experience 33 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,959 Speaker 2: with that. Yes, I think I heard on a date 34 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,799 Speaker 2: with your now husband you said you don't want to 35 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 2: be married, you don't want kids, and you're queer yeh, 36 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 2: and you ended up getting married. Like, will you just 37 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 2: walk me through that? 38 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean so that was my first date with 39 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: my now husband, which I'm still getting used to saying 40 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: that word because it's just it was never a word 41 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: that I thought I would associate myself with. So I 42 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:39,239 Speaker 1: still have a lot of identity crisis around my sexuality. 43 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: And my relationship status and all of that. But that 44 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: kind of influenced the questions and the things that I 45 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: said on our first date. And I had no intention 46 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: of being in a relationship with him. Then I said 47 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: to him on her first date, Hey, there are three 48 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: things that you need to know about me. I don't 49 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: want to get married, I don't want to. 50 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 3: Have kids, and I'm queer. 51 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: So if you have any shoes with any of those things, 52 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: then we could just grab a drink and then leave. 53 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 2: Like every first date, you like sat down and you 54 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 2: were like, listen, this is it for me? Or was 55 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 2: that just like a just a hymn thing. 56 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 3: Just a hym thing. 57 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: Because I felt like he was from a different world 58 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: than me. So okay, he was from an ethnobourb in 59 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: London where people get married very early, and he's Indian, 60 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: He's South Asian descent, and I think he had certain 61 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: expectations in general. He had expectations around like you know, 62 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: this is when I want to get married and I 63 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: want to have a big family. So I felt like 64 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:43,279 Speaker 1: it needed to be said, so almost like a disclaimer 65 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: before we jump into anything. 66 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 2: Okay, well walk me through, like what happened after your 67 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 2: first date, Like, how. 68 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 3: I guess I just got attached hope. 69 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm like what, I'm like, did you fall 70 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 2: in love immediately? Did it take time? 71 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 3: It took time. It took time because I think. 72 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: For many, many months, maybe even over a year, I 73 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: thought he was just a fun summer fling. 74 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 3: You know, he was cute. 75 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: He was building a company at the same time that 76 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: I was building my company, and it was really hard 77 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: for me to find people that I could date and 78 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: sleep with who fit into my lifestyle because I just 79 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: wanted to work. And I was in my girl Boss era, 80 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: right and he was in his boy boss era. So 81 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 1: he had an office and I used it for free, 82 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: and it just worked. We worked until two am, and 83 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: we you know, went home together after we'd work all day, 84 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: and then we got up early in the morning to 85 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: work again. So that was kind of our dating history. 86 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: And I think throughout that time I saw so many 87 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: of the qualities that he had that I appreciated, not 88 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: just in a partner, but as a human being, as 89 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: a friend. And for me, I always said to him 90 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 1: that I would only get married to him, knowing that if. 91 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 3: We were to get a divorce, it wouldn't be an 92 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 3: ugly one. 93 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: That it would be a very respectful, dignified experience, and 94 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: I would still want to have him as a friend 95 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: in my life even if we were no. 96 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 3: Longer in a romantic partnership. 97 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: So that was kind of my bar, if you will, 98 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: of getting married. And also because of his immigration status, 99 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: we thought that was more needed than if I were 100 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: with somebody who has a citizenship, for example. So for me, 101 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: it was a romantic but also a very political decision 102 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: for us to get married. 103 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, tell me about your wedding and your wedding night. 104 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 3: That's I know you listen to the podcast. So we 105 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 3: got married. It was a beautiful wedding. It was at 106 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 3: a city hall. 107 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: I never wanted a big wedding, and it was during 108 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: the pandemic, so it was perfect because we had five 109 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: people in the audience and that we finish our ceremony, 110 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: got dinner with our family and that was that. And 111 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: then the next morning I woke up at two three 112 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: am panicked and I kept thinking, what the fuck have 113 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: I done? And I looked at him. He was sleeping, 114 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 1: he was sound asleep. I shook him awake, and I 115 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: just asked him if we could promise each other that 116 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: we would get a divorce in three years, So I, okay, 117 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: shook him awake, and he, you know, kind of looked 118 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: at me like what is going on? 119 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 3: What's up? 120 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: Is everything okay? And I was like, no, no, no, 121 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: I'm freaking out. I'm freaking out. I think I'm having 122 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: cold feet, And can we just say that we're gonna 123 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: get a divorce in three years because this is just 124 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: freaking me out? 125 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 3: And he's like, yeah, yeah, whatever you want. 126 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's what happened. It's been a little over 127 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: three years now, so. 128 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 3: We passed the three year mark. We haven't gotten a divorce. 129 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 2: And why do you think, Like, I'm like, why three years? 130 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 2: Why did you need to say it? Like what was 131 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 2: going on? 132 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 3: That's how long it takes to get a green card. 133 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 1: So yeah, and for it to like be really sticky, 134 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: you know. So he got a dream card and we're 135 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: still together. And I think for me, the idea of 136 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: being married, and specifically being married to a straight, heterosexual 137 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: cis man, really fucked with my identity of being this 138 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: queer person who is anti institutionalized idea of marriage. And 139 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: I think it just kind of made me question whether 140 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: I am queer enough, whether I'm by enough, whether this 141 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: was going to change my identity as it was perceived 142 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: by not only other people but myself, And so I 143 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: think that's probably the biggest reason why I was freaking 144 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: out that night, and also just throughout our relationship, me 145 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: constantly rejecting him whenever he asked me if we can 146 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: get married, and I was like, no, hell no. 147 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 2: How many times did he ask you to get married? 148 00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 3: I mean it was like a weekly thing. 149 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 2: Like a handful everything. 150 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very often. 151 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: And it's so funny because our actual marriage proposal, people 152 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: always ask me, how did he propose or whatever the fuck? 153 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: And there wasn't a proposal. It was a discussion, Hey, 154 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: I think we need to get married because your immigration 155 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: status is really precarious. 156 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 3: And I asked. 157 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: Him if we can just send me a calendar advite 158 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: for whenever the city hall it becomes available. 159 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 2: So really, and that is a bit anti institutional because 160 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 2: you're not really wrapping up into getting married like everything 161 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 2: that so many people do, like this is something we 162 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 2: need to do because I love you now, you know, 163 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 2: like I love you now and this is an important 164 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 2: thing and getting married can fix that. But you all 165 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 2: had a conversation about opening the marriage. Do you consider 166 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 2: yourself polyamorous? Where are you all with all of that now. 167 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 3: So great question? 168 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: I had always wanted to try being open and being polly. 169 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,199 Speaker 1: I have a lot of friends who are polly, and 170 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 1: it's a lot of work, but they may hit work. 171 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: And I always like the idea of being able to 172 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:15,079 Speaker 1: follow my desires, and for me, it's really about that right, 173 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: like being able to honor my own desires, my identity, 174 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: and to give myself the permission to be free and 175 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: to have a partner who allows you to be as 176 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:31,199 Speaker 1: free as possible, and to continue to actually provide that safety, 177 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: emotional safety that I crave. So we talked about being 178 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: in an open marriage for many, many years. It took 179 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: a lot of convincing on my part for us to 180 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: try it out. 181 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 2: Can I ask you, like, what was that convincing like? 182 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 2: Because I'm imagining those conversations in a relationship with someone. Yeah, 183 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 2: I'm imagining it's uncomfortable, Like feelings could get hurt, emotions 184 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 2: can get high, like was one of one of the 185 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 2: more memorable conversations during those negotiations. 186 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: So I think in during negotiation and during our expermitation. 187 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: One of the hardest things is knowing that my desire 188 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: can hurt. 189 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 3: The person I love the most. 190 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: Right, how do you tell the person that you love 191 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: most that I want to fuck someone else? 192 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,439 Speaker 2: It's so honest, I think, to be like, I'm looking 193 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 2: at people and I'm thinking of them in certain ways. 194 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 2: Like that's honest and a really important thing too. I 195 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 2: think admit about like oneself, you know what I mean. 196 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the honest part is really really difficult to. 197 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,359 Speaker 3: Practice with each other and with ourselves. 198 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: And I felt like being dishonest about my desires would 199 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: be a betrayal to myself and that to our relationship. 200 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: And I never wanted to be in a relationship where, 201 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: you know, the cost of my commitment and my love 202 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: for somebody else is my freedom and my honesty. 203 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 3: And so I was. 204 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: Very frank with him from the very beginning that I 205 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: would I would want to try open relationship whenever we can. 206 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 3: I wanted it to be consensual. I didn't want it 207 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 3: to be forced. 208 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: And you know, I think it was really hard for 209 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: him to kind of reckon with the fact that I 210 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: have desires for other people. So I think there are 211 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 1: a couple of different things that people like how people 212 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: approach love and relationship. Like I think a lot of people, 213 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: like my partner and my friends, used to say to me, 214 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: isn't it romantic that you're committed to one another and 215 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: that you're fighting off these temptations? 216 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: Right? 217 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: Like you that, of course you can like go and 218 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: sleep with all these people and fall in love with 219 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: all these people, but you're choosing not to because you 220 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: want to prioritize this person that you're committed to. Isn't 221 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: that romantic? And my response always was, I think it's 222 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: just as romantic for us to explore other options and 223 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: still choose the person at the end of the day 224 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 1: you want to be with. I think that's just as 225 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: we're meant to give, not more to me, because that 226 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: means you have allowed yourself to experience the full you know, 227 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: potential of what your life can be, and you're still 228 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: choosing one or two, however, many people that you want 229 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 1: to actually do life with, right, So, I think it's 230 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: just different perspectives. And for me, the experience of opening 231 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: up our marriage, trusting one another to be honest about 232 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: what we were experiencing, and also the kind of pain 233 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: and insecurities that were coming up for both of us 234 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: because it wasn't easy, right. There was a lot of 235 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 1: tears involved, There were a lot of conversations involved. There 236 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: was a lot of me having to confront my abandonment issues, 237 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: my insecurities, my jealousy, and the entire of rooting of 238 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: my you know, sense of safety in order for us 239 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: to get back to the safety and commitment that we 240 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: promised one another. 241 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 3: So it wasn't easy, but we did it. 242 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 2: Something that I was thinking about that you again mentioned 243 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 2: on that one episode was like him going on a 244 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 2: second date with the same person, and I was like, 245 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 2: oh my gosh, like second day, same girl, I'm home alone. 246 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 2: Like I was kind of so proud of you listening 247 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 2: to that episode because what it so like, well what 248 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 2: it sounded like to me is that you were sitting 249 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 2: with your thoughts and feelings and you mentioned, or maybe 250 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 2: the expert mentioned like co regulation and self regulation. Yeah, 251 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 2: and like understanding how to self regulate while in partnership 252 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 2: with someone I think is also kind of anti institutional 253 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 2: and like anti sort of like capitalist and says like 254 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 2: anti sort of what we're told now, because it's sort 255 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 2: of like it's either those pendulum swings right, like figure 256 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 2: it out how to coregulate on your own, like be 257 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 2: an independent person, like you could say, this podcast or 258 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 2: this concept of boysover has even like made space and 259 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 2: conversation for that, like doing it all on your own, 260 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 2: but listening to y'all's story, like it really sort of 261 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 2: validated something for me that like, oh, you can learn 262 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 2: how to self regulate in partnership with someone. Yeah, can 263 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 2: you speak to that at all? 264 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, yes, I think that's so important because 265 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: you know, I had a pretty I had a lowercase 266 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: T traumatic childhood that kind of planted in me the 267 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: sphere of being abandoned and separation and needing to always 268 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: be reassured that I am loved, that I'm cared for, 269 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: They're not going anywhere. And so I think because of that, 270 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: one of my coping mechanisms throughout my teenage years and 271 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: twenties is kind of pushing people away before I am 272 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: pushed away. 273 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 2: Of course, I understand you deeply. 274 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: Yes, I'm sure you do. And yeah, because I don't 275 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: think I ever really felt truly safe and loved unconditionally, 276 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: and I never really you know, identified with that concept 277 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: of unconditional love and my current partner was the first 278 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: person to ever make me feel like I could be 279 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: completely unclenched and that I could rest, that I could 280 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: actually trust, that I don't have to always have my 281 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: guard up, that I can yeah, that I can lean 282 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: on him, that even if we were not romantically involved, 283 00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: that he will still love me, that I will still 284 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: love him. There's this like really deep emotional and human 285 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: level connection that I love. So that meant that, you know, 286 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: so much of my self nervous system regulation came from 287 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: being with him and having him help me regulate myself 288 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: by him reassuring me that he still loves me, that 289 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: him showing up for me in ways that made me 290 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: feel calm, And when he decided to go on a 291 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: second day with the same person and that I knew 292 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: that he was into her enough that he was while 293 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: he was getting ready we were on the phone that 294 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: I could hear his excitement. 295 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 3: I was, I was, I it wasn't fair to him, 296 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 3: but I started crying and. 297 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 2: That I love her. You're like, this happens to me too. 298 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 2: This happened to me the other day. I was like, 299 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 2: in my head, I was like, don't do this, don't 300 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 2: do this, Like this isn't fair to him, like reaction, 301 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 2: but then like my entire body, yeah, is like my 302 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 2: heart is pounding, my throat is tight, you know what 303 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 2: I mean. Like I'm I'm like so uptight, and it's 304 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,959 Speaker 2: like I think that's just like so real. It's like, 305 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 2: you know it's unfair, but you can't help sort of 306 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 2: your physical response. 307 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I was crying so much so that he 308 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: was like, I don't I don't have to go if 309 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: you don't want me to go, and I can stay 310 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: with you. 311 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 3: I just don't know how I'm going to leave you 312 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 3: in the state. 313 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: And I said, no, no, no, like this is this 314 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,199 Speaker 1: is what I need to experience, like I want to 315 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 1: try this out. Like even if we were to decide 316 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 1: we can't do this anymore, I need us to sort 317 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: of complete this experiment that we started, right, And so 318 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 1: we hung up and he left, and I was a mess. 319 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 1: I had not expected this kind of just complete nervous 320 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 1: system failure. Like it was like, right does not compute. 321 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 1: I am crying. I am I am like dry heaving, 322 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: and I was calling my friends and I was in 323 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: you know, I was in Indonesia at that time, so 324 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: time zone differences when I was waking everybody else trying. Yeah, 325 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: he was in New York and I was not okay, 326 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: And at some point I had to just sit with 327 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: myself and tune into all. 328 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 3: The things that I was feeling. 329 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 1: That wasn't jealousy, right, like, this is not just a 330 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: simple not that jealousy simple. But this wasn't like like 331 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 1: who is this girl? It wasn't like that. It was 332 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: what experts would call primal panic. It's when your safe, 333 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: where your attachment figure is gone, or you fear abandonment, 334 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,959 Speaker 1: and your entire sense of being is being threatened, Like 335 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: you're under threat of being abandoned, right, so your entire 336 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: body reacts in a way that perceives the situation as. 337 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 3: Almost like death. 338 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: So the only thing that helped me to stop crying 339 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: was a cold plunchow. 340 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 3: The hotel whole plunge. 341 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know what is wrong with 342 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 1: my body, but I can't stop crying, and I've been 343 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: crying for three hours. 344 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 3: I need to go. Yeah, so I just shocked my system. 345 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like so curious, Like even though you sort 346 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 2: of sent him on the way, like I know it, 347 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 2: I think I know what I would do which is 348 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 2: blame everything on my partner and be like I can't 349 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 2: believe you did this, and you would be like you 350 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 2: told me to do this, and I'd be like, you're 351 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 2: not supposed to listen to me like that, right, Yeah, 352 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 2: that is a very classic script for me. Oh yeah. 353 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: I mean also we're taught that, right, Like, we're taught that, 354 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: especially when it comes to heterosexual relationships. The way that 355 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: we define romance in the movies and stuff is you 356 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 1: send them away on these tests and they're supposed to 357 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: come back wanting you, and they have no desire for 358 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: other people. They are, you know, committed to you and 359 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 1: you only, and they don't see any other desirable human beings, 360 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,360 Speaker 1: right Like, That's what is considered to be romantic. 361 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 3: And I think that really puts us in this. 362 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: Bind where even when we feel desire for other people, 363 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: we can't voice it because that means that we're allowing 364 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: other people or we're allowing our partners to do the 365 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: same thing, and that threatens our security and safety. 366 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 3: And I felt anger. I felt anger that he was 367 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 3: enjoying it so much. 368 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,479 Speaker 1: When he solaw for so many years told me that 369 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: that's not what he wanted, but really God. Mostly, I 370 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 1: think I was really angry at myself. I was angry 371 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: at myself in the beginning for, you know, even trying 372 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: this experiment, right, because my brain straight went to he's 373 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: going to leave me, like he's falling in love with 374 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: somebody else right now, and he is leading me like 375 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: this is what I've done, Like look what I've done, 376 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 1: Like I fucked it up. So I was really angry 377 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 1: at myself. And then I was really angry at myself 378 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: for not being more okay. I was judging myself as 379 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: I was breaking down, like this is. 380 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 3: What you wanted? 381 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: Like I thought you were more evolved than this, right, 382 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: Like why are you feeling these things? Like you are 383 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 1: such a hypocrite and how are you gonna ever be 384 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: a poly person if this is how you feel? 385 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 3: And all these things. 386 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: So I was really angry at myself and I was 387 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: very self critical. And I think since then I've learned 388 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: to be more gentle and forgiving and compassionate with myself 389 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 1: and the kind of you know, pain that I have 390 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 1: from my childhood, that these moments of primal panic exist 391 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: because of past experiences of being abandoned, being let down, 392 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: being betrayed, being disappointed, and that's very human for me 393 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 1: to feel, and it just shows that I am deeply 394 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 1: in love and that's a beautiful thing. 395 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 2: After that second day with somebody else the next morning, 396 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 2: did you wake up like, Okay, we can never do 397 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 2: this again, or did you try a couple more times? 398 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 2: What was that like? 399 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, we had so many conversations about what to 400 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: do next, but it was so evident that we needed 401 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 1: to or I needed to work through just what got 402 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: exposed through the experimentation. 403 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 3: I mean, we hadn't even. 404 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 1: Have that conversation until I got back to Oakland and 405 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: he came back from New York to Oakland and we 406 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 1: kind of got together in person, and. 407 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 3: We didn't say, let's do this again or not. 408 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: I think we were just so focused on, you know, 409 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: repairing what God exposed CS and what like, just kind 410 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: of reassuring ourselves and each other that this is what 411 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: we want. We haven't tried again in that in the 412 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: way that we had experimented, but it's a constant conversation 413 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: and just checking in with one another. What feels really 414 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: good is knowing that the door is not closed, and 415 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: knowing that either one of us will voice to the 416 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 1: other person if there is a situation where we want 417 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: to open up our marriage, that we have the safety net, 418 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 1: we have the trust in one another to be able 419 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 1: to be honest with our desires. 420 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 3: And so that's. 421 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: Been a really big win from that experience, and also 422 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 1: just knowing that we went through hell and pack and 423 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: we are still here and we're still so deeply in love. 424 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 2: Are you all still open or have you like? Where 425 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 2: are you all with it? 426 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: We're on pause, the door is still open, And you know, 427 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: I think this is also an important sort of thing 428 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: that I came to because I felt like I had 429 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: to be Polly to be queer enough, and that I 430 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: really forced myself to be okay with it, and then 431 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: I discovered these wounds that I didn't even realize had 432 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: to be healed so much still because I you know, 433 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: I've been in therapy for a long time, and I 434 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: thought we were already we felt really good about it, 435 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: and going in I thought I was going to be 436 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: super fine, but I wasn't super frying. 437 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 3: I was super not fine. 438 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 1: And so discovering that I had so much more healing 439 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: that I wanted to do before we try it out 440 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: again so that I am not putting my body and 441 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: my soul through that kind of pain again was what 442 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 1: we decided to do. So we ended up going to 443 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: therapy together, like a couple of therapies to work out 444 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 1: all the things that came up. 445 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, I again, like, I feel so proud of 446 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 2: you for trying. Thank you because putting yourself in that 447 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 2: situation and really making yourself go through that, I think 448 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 2: once is enough. Maybe if you could, like, first of all, 449 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 2: I think once is enough or whatever, how many times 450 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 2: you had to go through it. I was talking to 451 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 2: a friend who is like Polly and never in the 452 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 2: primary partnership. My friend is always like dating somebody who's 453 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 2: in a partnership or that's just the way they are 454 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 2: right now. But they said a few things to me 455 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,239 Speaker 2: over the weekend that were really helpful. One was like 456 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 2: loving someone is not about owning them, It's about experiencing them. 457 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 2: And that really did something for me. And then the 458 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 2: only thing that is certain in a relationship is change. 459 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 2: And I think something that like opening a relationship does 460 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 2: is sort of just identifies that change can totally happen. Yeah, 461 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 2: you can change how you feel, you can change how 462 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 2: do you see someone, Like even if we never change 463 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 2: how we feel our physical bodies in our age and 464 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 2: our health will change. And so there's something about being 465 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 2: open and being Polly that I think like really addresses 466 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 2: all of that that sort of, like you said, brings 467 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 2: about more freedom. Yeah, are you admitting to yourself now 468 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 2: that your marriage is not just a green card marriage? Like, 469 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 2: are you able to sort of have you been able 470 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 2: to release that or you. 471 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: Know, I think I am still holding on to it 472 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 1: a little bit. 473 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 3: I must say, But I will say that. 474 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: I just feel really fortunate to have found a person 475 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: that I can trust and love this much, that I 476 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: can feel this safe around, and something that my you know. 477 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 1: The one of the experts that was on the podcast, 478 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: Jessica Fern, who wrote this very famous book in the 479 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: poly community called Polly Secure. She said that a lot 480 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: of people derive a sense of safety from the structure 481 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: of being in a relationship, not necessarily the quality and 482 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 1: the experience of the relationship. So just by having a 483 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: label around having a boyfriend, girlfriend, partner, or being in 484 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 1: a marriage where it's a legal, legally binding contract, that's 485 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: where people derive the safety from. But rather what we 486 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,959 Speaker 1: are trying to create as a sense of safety within 487 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 1: ourselves and with each other, with or without the label 488 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: or the structure as defined by other people in society. 489 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 3: And I think that's a much more difficult thing for 490 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 3: us to do. 491 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: And I think it also mirrors the work that I 492 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: do in social justice, where we are having to define 493 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,360 Speaker 1: for ourselves who we are, what dignity feels like, what 494 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: safety feels like outside of these systems that tells us otherwise, 495 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: and creating that world that we deserve with one another 496 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: with honesty and integrity. 497 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 2: I'm guess I'm wondering when people ask you for advice, like, oh, 498 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 2: should I try it? Should I open my marriage? Should 499 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 2: I be polyamorous? What is the advice you sort of 500 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 2: give now? Or how do you navigate that conversation? 501 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: I you know, I have no expert my own in 502 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,199 Speaker 1: my own experience, of course, but the advice that I 503 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: always give to people because I have a lot of 504 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: friends who want to try it. Like, what I didn't 505 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: realize is how so many people want to try it, 506 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:28,360 Speaker 1: but they've never talked. 507 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 3: About it with their partner. 508 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: Yes, because they're scared of being judged, they're scared of 509 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: breaking something that they have. And I would say just 510 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: take the first step of being honest with yourself and 511 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: then being honest with your partner and see where that leads. 512 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be a huge first step, but 513 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: I think for a lot of people that takes immense 514 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: courage to admit to themselves the things that they want, 515 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: and especially for women and fems and women of color. 516 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: I think people in my Asian community, we are so 517 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: taught early on to not want or to not voice 518 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: the things that we want because it's seen as promiscuous, 519 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: it's seen as sinful, it's seen as shameful. So I 520 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: think dispelling some of those things and unlearning those conditioning 521 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,479 Speaker 1: is really helpful for us to feel like we have 522 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: control over our own agency and desires. 523 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 3: Right. 524 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,959 Speaker 2: Right, It really is kind of like either navigating the 525 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 2: stress of hiding something or holding on to something, or 526 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 2: navigating the difficulty of an honest conversation. Like either way 527 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 2: you're sort of like you have discomfort. 528 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: Either way, you're gonna be uncomfortable, so you might as 529 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: well get what you want. 530 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 3: And try for it, right. 531 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: I think being courageous in being honest with yourself and 532 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: the person that you love is I think a necessary 533 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: first step towards living the kind of life that you want, 534 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: or at least trying it out and seeing for yourself 535 00:29:58,480 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: if this is what you want. 536 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 2: On the show, we talk a lot about un learning 537 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:05,959 Speaker 2: what do you feel like is one of the biggest 538 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 2: things you've had to learn about love? 539 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 3: Mm okay. So one of the things that is coming 540 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 3: to me that. 541 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: I didn't believe until I met my current partner is 542 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: this whole idea of you need to love yourself before 543 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: you can be loved by someone. I think there's a 544 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: huge asterisk in that statement for me because I think 545 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: that there are moments where I don't love myself, and 546 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: there have been years where I didn't see my own 547 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: self worth and it was my partner, it was my 548 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: friends who reminded me that I am worthy of love 549 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: and being cared for. And I think our society wants 550 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: us to constantly hunger for self love and depend only 551 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: on ourselves to you have that sense of fulfillment and 552 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: to have the conviction that we are worthy of love 553 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: and respect and dignity. And I think that's a really, 554 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: really difficult challenge. I think we need each other to 555 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: feel loved, to feel like we are worthy of dignity 556 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: and freedom. So I would say that you can love 557 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: even when you are not capable of loving yourself at 558 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: the time. And I think you're also capable of receiving 559 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: love even when you don't think you deserve it. 560 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 2: Yes, I am really on this kick of like kind 561 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 2: of rejecting the idea that like we can or should 562 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 2: or even are able to do like really anything without 563 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,719 Speaker 2: the support of like a group of people. So often, 564 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 2: especially now that focus has gone internal. Yeah, you know, 565 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 2: like fix yourself, love yourself, focus on yourself, when really 566 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 2: it takes so many hay and like no one person 567 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 2: can like do it on their own. You've mentioned a 568 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 2: few times that getting married to a man has impacted 569 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 2: your identity with your queerness, and maybe opening the marriage 570 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 2: was something to try and make peace with that. Where 571 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 2: are you at with that now? 572 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: I think that experience showed me that one I have 573 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: unhealed parts of myself that I didn't even know it existed. 574 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: And it also brought into focus sort of my constant 575 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: struggle to feel whole by the perspective of other people, 576 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: that somehow my identity was more about proving to other 577 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: people and myself that I am something more than just 578 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: my knowing, and so I think that experience gave me 579 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: permission to actually just know that I am. 580 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 3: I am queer, and I am. 581 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: Disoriented, and I am very insecurely attached. So I need 582 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: to do some healing, and that has something to do 583 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: with me being queer or not. 584 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 3: It's just like I need to go to therapy. 585 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 2: A little bit longer, don't we all, my God? 586 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 3: Exactly. 587 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 2: I find a little comfort in knowing that exploration and 588 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 2: self discovery is still possible in a stable relationship. I've 589 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 2: loved everything Michelle had to say about her own growth 590 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 2: and hope you got a lot out of it too. 591 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and I'll talk to y'all next week. 592 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 2: Boysover is a production of iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host, Hopewordard. 593 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 2: Our executive producer are Christina Everett and Julie Pinero. Our 594 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 2: supervising producer is Emily Meronoff. Our assistant producer is Logan Palau. 595 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 2: Engineering by Bahid Fraser and mixing and mastering by Abu Zafar. 596 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 2: If you liked this episode, please tell a friend and 597 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 2: don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to Boy Sober 598 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio, app, Apple podcasts, and wherever you get 599 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:26,240 Speaker 2: your favorite shows.