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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 2: This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,

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Speaker 2: and speaker.

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Speaker 3: And this is Sarah Hartunger. I'm a mother of three,

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Speaker 3: a practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are

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Speaker 3: two working parents who love our careers and our families.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds.

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Speaker 2: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family,

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Speaker 2: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping

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Speaker 2: out long term career goals. We want you to get

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Speaker 2: the most out of life.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to best of both worlds, this says Laura. In

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Speaker 4: this episode, Sarah and I are going to be discussing

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Speaker 4: kids and screens, the topic of screen time, the content,

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Speaker 4: the various rules we have in our house, or general philosophies,

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Speaker 4: what we've seen other people do and are thinking on that.

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Speaker 4: So lots of different topics in there to discuss. So Sarah, well, first,

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Speaker 4: this is going to be part of a series of

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Speaker 4: episodes on screen time, so we'll get to adults and

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Speaker 4: screens later, and we've got a great guest coming up

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Speaker 4: as well to talk about you know, young adults and

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Speaker 4: screens as well. So Sarah, you just had a screen

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Speaker 4: free month experiment in your house. Maybe you can tell

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Speaker 4: us a little bit about that, what led to it,

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Speaker 4: and sort of how it went, any discoveries you had

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Speaker 4: in the course of doing so.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I guess I want to preface this episode

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Speaker 3: by noting that this is one of those areas where

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Speaker 3: there is no obvious right answer, and you can even

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Speaker 3: see that illustrated in the fact that Laura and I

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Speaker 3: definitely handle screen time a bit differently, part of that

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Speaker 3: due to the ages of our kids, and partly just

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Speaker 3: due to the choices we've made with our partners and

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Speaker 3: other stakeholders. And we're hoping that this episode does not

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Speaker 3: come off as prescriptive, but rather that it will help

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Speaker 3: demonstrate that it's an area which does require some thought

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Speaker 3: if you haven't put that into it, and probably many

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Speaker 3: of you have, and just maybe some examples of what's worked,

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Speaker 3: what hasn't you know, things you might not have thought about.

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Speaker 1: Et cetera.

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Speaker 3: So this is a little bit of a complex topic,

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Speaker 3: but one that's on so many of our minds, and

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Speaker 3: that's why we decided that it deserved its own place

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Speaker 3: as perhaps our very first series, yes.

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Speaker 4: Our series, because it's a topic that parents do need

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Speaker 4: to deal with these days, and particularly as your kids

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Speaker 4: get into the age range where they start to deal

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Speaker 4: with the world independently and pretty much everyone does have

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Speaker 4: electronic access of some variety or another. It's also an

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Speaker 4: area I think a lot of people's thoughts may change

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Speaker 4: as their children get older and as they experience parenthood

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Speaker 4: and all its ups and downs, and how children interact with.

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Speaker 1: The world these days as well.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I know Sarah and I both find it

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Speaker 4: somewhat hilarious the number of people who do not have children,

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Speaker 4: or you know, don't have children, who would have independent

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Speaker 4: access to screen, who have very very strong feelings about this.

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Speaker 4: So my sort of general thought is somebody without children

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Speaker 4: maybe needs to not be quite so vocally.

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Speaker 3: Hardcore about all this, right, Yeah, yeah, no, I'm with you,

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Speaker 3: And that's that's been a criticism I've seen of some

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Speaker 3: There was a childless author who wrote a very very

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Speaker 3: screen damning book and that was part of the critique,

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Speaker 3: and it was a fair one. So all right, I'm

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Speaker 3: not going to name names there, but let's get into

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Speaker 3: screen free may So why did I decide to do this? So,

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Speaker 3: just to refresh, my kids are five, nine and eleven,

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Speaker 3: We're not middle school yet. We're still finishing up elementary

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Speaker 3: school and about will be in middle school next year.

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Speaker 3: And we had done a screen free month before in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty two. I believe it was screen free March,

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Speaker 3: and somewhere in the interval between then and now, we

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Speaker 3: just did find ourselves at a crossroad where the kids

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Speaker 3: were spending more time on screens that we felt was

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Speaker 3: good and a lot of the content of what they

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Speaker 3: were doing seemed to have negative consequences with respect to

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Speaker 3: their emotional regulation, behavior, etc. And we absolutely take responsibility

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Speaker 3: for that. Were the ones that have provided the screens,

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Speaker 3: were the ones that have given them the time to

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Speaker 3: do that. Often that could be relaxing time for us,

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Speaker 3: So that needs to be said that, you know, it's

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Speaker 3: not like, oh my kids were sucked into a.

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Speaker 1: Vacuum, like we enabled the vacuum to happen.

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Speaker 3: And I think there was like a day where we

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Speaker 3: actually decided a while ago that YouTube was not a

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Speaker 3: great content for a kid Genevieve's age for us, because

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Speaker 3: everything moves very very quickly, there's all this kind of

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Speaker 3: like content being made by different families. We felt like

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Speaker 3: a lot of it was felt very selling to them,

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Speaker 3: even whether they didn't realize it, and Genevieve made some

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Speaker 3: comment like their lives are better than ours, so we

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Speaker 3: hadn't even been allowing that.

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Speaker 1: We allowed her to.

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Speaker 3: Watch PBS Kids and play some games, most of them

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Speaker 3: kind of like world building games. Cameron and Annabel have

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Speaker 3: a switch and they have access to different video games,

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Speaker 3: and then there's they don't do social media, but Annabel

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Speaker 3: will do like some group texts and like Facebook Messenger kids,

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Speaker 3: not to a huge extent, which I think is important

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Speaker 3: because screen free may felt okay and felt right because

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Speaker 3: I don't have a kid whose entire social life depends

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Speaker 3: on use of the screen. Yet people with older kids

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Speaker 3: have pointed out they couldn't do that, and I totally

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Speaker 3: get that, and I'm not even suggesting that we would

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Speaker 3: do that when maybe two years from now it wouldn't

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Speaker 3: make any sense. But for us, at this juncture, it

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Speaker 3: just felt like we had gotten to an excessive point

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Speaker 3: and it was easier to just draw a very hard

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Speaker 3: line because I felt like the kids needed practice doing

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Speaker 3: other things and finding other ways to entertain themselves, because

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Speaker 3: they had really just kind of like lost any desire

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Speaker 3: to do non screen activities for the most part. I mean,

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Speaker 3: with some exceptions like organized sports and stuff like that,

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Speaker 3: but if they were given any second screen of free time,

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Speaker 3: they wanted to be on a screen. So screen free

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Speaker 3: may there wasn't a lot of pushback. I think they

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Speaker 3: just kind of accepted that it wasn't pushback wasn't going

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Speaker 3: to really work, So it wasn't like we were having

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Speaker 3: to fight protests every day. We did have some exceptions

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Speaker 3: built in, like they were allowed to watch movies all

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Speaker 3: together on various Friday and Saturday nights. We especially if

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Speaker 3: we had a babysitter. We didn't want to punish the

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Speaker 3: babysitter by saying they have to be entirely screen free.

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Speaker 1: And there was one two day period where Josh and.

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Speaker 3: I went away and they were with our nanny, and

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Speaker 3: I'm like, you know what, they can have screens during

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Speaker 3: that time, because again I didn't want to make it

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Speaker 3: harder for somebody else, And it was honestly not nearly

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Speaker 3: as hard as I thought it might be from a

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Speaker 3: parenting perspective. They really did find other stuff to do.

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Speaker 3: They read more books than they have read in a

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Speaker 3: long time. One kid in particular did a lot more outside.

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Speaker 3: Another kid ironically got a flip phone during this time,

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Speaker 3: and that's anna all. She's again fifth grade, so we

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Speaker 3: can get into that in a little bit, but has

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Speaker 3: been enjoying some more independence and like going for walks

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Speaker 3: with a friend with her phone around the neighborhood and

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Speaker 3: feeling more grown up. And I'm not sure they would

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Speaker 3: have wanted to do these activities, these building activities, these

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Speaker 3: sport activities, reading more if they had such an easy

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Speaker 3: alternative ubiquitously available, and so that was really really nice

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Speaker 3: to see. I also felt like they were overall calmer.

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Speaker 3: Were they easy and calm? No, my kids are not

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Speaker 3: easy and calm. Sorry kids, if you're listening, I mean,

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Speaker 3: you're wonderful. But we're like, we're not one of those

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Speaker 3: super quiet households. There's a lot of energy and that

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Speaker 3: was still there, but the edge was taken off. And

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Speaker 3: I don't think there were any negative social consequences again,

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Speaker 3: because it wasn't really that long. It was one month,

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Speaker 3: not a year, and because of the ages of the

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Speaker 3: kids and now I've talked for a really long time,

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Speaker 3: but I will say I'm glad we did it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if we'll do it again.

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Speaker 3: I think As the kids get older, it will feel

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Speaker 3: less appropriate. But it really worked for us right now,

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Speaker 3: and I think that we're going to be able to

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Speaker 3: help kind of bring back screens in moderation. That's the

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Speaker 3: tricky part, to help them still enjoy some of that

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Speaker 3: screen time, but maintaining the desire to read and go

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Speaker 3: for walks with friends and do other things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting.

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Speaker 4: We wouldn't do a screen free months just I mean,

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Speaker 4: for many reasons. But yeah, I mean with older kids,

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Speaker 4: that is how they plan their social lives. I mean

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Speaker 4: they're on their phones to text and set stuff up.

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Speaker 4: You know, there's group video game type things that happen

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Speaker 4: as well. And I think you know you can't, as

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Speaker 4: you said, going phone free in twenty twenty three does

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Speaker 4: not make it nineteen ninety five. You can't recreate that

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Speaker 4: world just by taking your own kids screens away. So

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Speaker 4: our approach is always a little bit more. I don't know,

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Speaker 4: limit when people can have their devices, and if there

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Speaker 4: has been a specific issue with a child being unable

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Speaker 4: to deal with something, then we will take away that

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Speaker 4: particular kid's stuff.

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Speaker 1: And that's I mean, with.

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Speaker 4: Five you can kind of do that when they're all

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Speaker 4: different ages. So that's been sort of our philosophy in

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Speaker 4: the rule in our house is on weeknights, the big

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Speaker 4: kids need to have no devices, no screens in their

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Speaker 4: rooms at nine and.

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Speaker 1: Then lights out as ten.

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Speaker 4: That kind of works from the sequence that when people

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Speaker 4: need to wake up in the morning. Weekend's probably a

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Speaker 4: little bit more of a free for all. But the

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Speaker 4: honest traits were also just busy, so there's less time.

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Speaker 1: Available for screens.

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Speaker 4: Then you know, it's not like one hundred and sixty

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Speaker 4: eight hours that they're available.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, that's what we kind of do.

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Speaker 3: See, the busyness is great. I think that should be

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Speaker 3: emphasized as like the ideal strategy to you know, for

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Speaker 3: kids and adults alike. Now that we're talking about adults today,

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Speaker 3: but if you're doing other stuff, you're getting together with

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Speaker 3: people in real life, you are doing some kind of activities,

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Speaker 3: you are you still can have enough attention span to

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Speaker 3: read a book, et cetera, then probably spending whatever time

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Speaker 3: is left also barring for getting enough sleep and not

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Speaker 3: having blue light in your eyes, maybe right before you

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Speaker 3: go to sleep, although I know that's debated, then you're

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Speaker 3: probably good. Because my observation with some kids, And I'm

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Speaker 3: not even necessarily talking about my kids, but obviously I

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Speaker 3: see a lot of kids at work as well. There

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Speaker 3: are some kids that would choose not to do any

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Speaker 3: activities and maybe not to do their homework and not

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Speaker 3: to see friends because they prefer whatever the online modality is,

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Speaker 3: and like a thirteen or fourteen year old brain lacks

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Speaker 3: that frontal cortex reasoning ability to say like, well, if

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Speaker 3: I don't do my homework, then my future won't be great.

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Speaker 3: I do feel like some of these technologies are they

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Speaker 3: have an incredible pull, and when you have like an

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Speaker 3: immature reasoning system like that, that's not a great combination

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Speaker 3: for some kids. And I don't have an answer for that,

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Speaker 3: because again, I don't think cold turkey or abstinence is

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Speaker 3: going to work for your average tenth grader. But at

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Speaker 3: the same time, I'm kind of looking ahead to like

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Speaker 3: what if that is the scenario, And I don't have

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Speaker 3: a great answer, but I think it would look something

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Speaker 3: like sort of requiring that you have the other elements

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Speaker 3: of life in place to maintain your screen privileges.

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Speaker 1: If that makes sense.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, all right, Well we're going to take a quick

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Speaker 4: ad break. We'll be more back with more on kids

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Speaker 4: and screens. So we are back talking about kids and screens,

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Speaker 4: and Sarah was bringing up the point of some children

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Speaker 4: not being able to regulate and not doing well with

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Speaker 4: the independence of being able to choose when they can

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Speaker 4: be on it. And I think this is really just

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Speaker 4: part of getting to know your own children and figuring

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Speaker 4: out what works for them. And I mean, we have

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Speaker 4: some house rules and we also do some things differently

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Speaker 4: within individual kids. You know that they're different people, have

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Speaker 4: different needs, different things work for different kids, and I

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Speaker 4: think you can definitely have stricter guidelines in place for

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Speaker 4: a child who needs more support versus one who doesn't.

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Speaker 4: And that's you know, you can explain it too, like

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Speaker 4: I mean, somebody's grades are better than someone else's. I

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Speaker 4: mean that is a pretty straightforward thing, and you can say, well,

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Speaker 4: I mean it may be that one child is more.

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Speaker 1: Academically oriented than another.

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Speaker 4: Again, you want to celebrate whatever is great about each

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Speaker 4: individual child, but given that you probably do have some

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Speaker 4: minimum standard for how you perform in school, it would

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Speaker 4: totally be reasonable to say, well, child A always gets

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Speaker 4: his or her homework done, So we just need to

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Speaker 4: broadly say take away screens at this time before you

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Speaker 4: go to bed, trusting it will get done. Child B

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Speaker 4: needs to sit at the kitchen table and do his

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Speaker 4: or her homework after a short decompression time after school.

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Speaker 4: But I have this time that they have to sit

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Speaker 4: down and work on it because otherwise it won't get done.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think that's unfair. I think it's just

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Speaker 1: based on individual children being who they are. And if

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Speaker 1: child BE over.

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Speaker 4: Time decides that they want to establish a system where

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Speaker 4: they do it better and check in with you and

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Speaker 4: show that they can handle it, then maybe child BE

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Speaker 4: could get more freedom and privileges over time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I like that.

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Speaker 3: I like the customizability and keeping each kid in mind

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Speaker 3: because absolutely I can think. I mean, my kids are younger,

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Speaker 3: so I'm not like as into that world, but I

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Speaker 3: feel like on the online world, I have a lot

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Speaker 3: of blogger friends who have kids in that middle school,

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Speaker 3: high school age grange, and some of them seem like

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Speaker 3: they have beautifully adjusted approaches to screens like they do

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Speaker 3: some screens, but they're also playing two varsity level sports

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Speaker 3: and they have a social life and like to make

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Speaker 3: a blanket statement that like phones are evil and they

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Speaker 3: shouldn't have one, Like it doesn't seem, at least outwardly,

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Speaker 3: that kid to be doing any harm. So I think

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Speaker 3: the blanket statements and generalizations can be really difficult to

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Speaker 3: make in this realm.

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Speaker 4: You had a kind of process of thinking about it,

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Speaker 4: like when kids are little, it's more you can tell

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Speaker 4: them when they can have screens, right.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, it kind of like I think it was.

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Speaker 3: It was actually a blog comment from a reader and

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Speaker 3: Patreon member Ka that kind of like this light bulb

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Speaker 3: went on, which is like at some point you go

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Speaker 3: from telling your kids when they can have screens to

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Speaker 3: perhaps the next step being when they're older, you tell

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Speaker 3: them when they can't have screens because they've kind of

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Speaker 3: demonstrated a readiness to regulate it on their own. They're

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Speaker 3: doing other things, and maybe they still need a little

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Speaker 3: help knowing not to have their phone with notifications with

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Speaker 3: them as they're doing homework because that's going to be

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Speaker 3: a lot more fun than homework and probably very distracting.

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Speaker 3: Or to like you do in your house, stop using

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Speaker 3: screens a certain amount of time before bed because you

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Speaker 3: know it can impact sleep and cause stress, etc. It's

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Speaker 3: just nice to have like kind of a boundary to

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Speaker 3: that activity. So when you've got your four year old,

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Speaker 3: it's like, oh, you can have your screen on like

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Speaker 3: two to four on Saturday afternoons or whatever you've decided.

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Speaker 3: I'm not prescribing to anybody what their limits should be,

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Speaker 3: but when they're they're twelve, it's or maybe fifteen, it's like, oh,

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Speaker 3: you know, you can have your phone except for XYZ.

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Speaker 3: And I think that could be like an interesting, interesting

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Speaker 3: way to think about things.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so would you wound up buying, as you said,

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Speaker 4: a dumb phone for Annabel? Like what went into that decision?

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Speaker 4: Why did you get the product that you got, and

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Speaker 4: what are some other things that you looked at?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I mean there's so many different options, and

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Speaker 3: it also, I think really depends on what the other

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Speaker 3: families are doing and what the school environment looks like.

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Speaker 3: I mean, if you have a robust network of parents

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Speaker 3: that are doing the wait until eighth thing because you're

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Speaker 3: trying to make it nineteen ninety five in the middle school,

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Speaker 3: and you have like a large proportion of kids doing that,

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Speaker 3: it might work. I Mean I kind of think like

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Speaker 3: the more people are going a less tech route, the

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Speaker 3: less frustrating. That's going to be for the kids. But

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Speaker 3: that's not really, that's not where I live, that's not

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Speaker 3: my situation. So we felt like it was time to

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Speaker 3: get our almost middle school or some kind of device

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Speaker 3: to be able to reach us in certain cases and

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Speaker 3: also you know, to text and stuff like that. Although

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Speaker 3: she has an iPad, and really it's almost like we

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Speaker 3: just don't want her to have the ability to whip

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Speaker 3: out that entertainment machine at any impulse or any moment,

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Speaker 3: because we still want her to be able to do

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Speaker 3: those group chats and whatever, you know, when she's home,

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Speaker 3: and like when we have said it's like, okay, time

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Speaker 3: to do that, if that makes sense, we just didn't.

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Speaker 3: We weren't ready to like to kind of be like, okay,

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Speaker 3: free for all, go for it. So we went with

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Speaker 3: the kind of dumb phone idea, which is it's like

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Speaker 3: a Nokia flip phone. It still has internet. You can

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Speaker 3: get Google Maps, but it's like not very fast to use.

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Speaker 3: We're not allowing social media at this juncture. But she

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Speaker 3: can text, she can call, she could take pictures, she

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Speaker 3: could send pictures, et cetera. Other people have gone the

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Speaker 3: gab or gizmo device, which is kind of like very

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Speaker 3: similar to that kind of like a lockdown smartphone that

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Speaker 3: only has certain features and is very safe and very monitored.

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Speaker 3: A lot of those also come with like GPS tracking

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Speaker 3: so that parents can like know where their kids are

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Speaker 3: in the neighborhood. There's also the Apple Watch route. Actually

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Speaker 3: that's been I've heard more and more kind of fifth grade,

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Speaker 3: sixth grade parents say they just get their kid an

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Speaker 3: Apple Watch with data because you know, there's very limited

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Speaker 3: distraction potential with that, but it's still a good and

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Speaker 3: fairly reliable communication device.

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Speaker 1: So I've seen that like more and more.

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Speaker 3: And then you know, they may have again a laptop

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Speaker 3: or an iPad at home to do other things, but

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Speaker 3: they're not able to just do everything wherever. And then

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Speaker 3: there are parents that go the smartphone route, of course,

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Speaker 3: and I think different levels of involvement and monitoring of

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Speaker 3: what goes on on that phone, and I think there's

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Speaker 3: no one right solution for every single kid. We've actually

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Speaker 3: not worried as much of about the monitoring, which hopefully

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Speaker 3: that won't come to be an error, but instead kept

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Speaker 3: lines of communication very very open, Like you know, if

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Speaker 3: you see anything on the screen that like confuses you

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Speaker 3: or you want to talk about and like just we're

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Speaker 3: not the kind of parents that I think are scary

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Speaker 3: to talk.

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Speaker 1: About that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 3: So I'm hoping that that will allow us prevent us

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Speaker 3: from having to use alternative means of being surveillance.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm mean.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So, our family policy so far has been that

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Speaker 4: you can get a phone for your eleventh birthday, which

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Speaker 4: is roughly what you did then too, that she turned

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Speaker 4: eleven and she got a phone. We've generally gotten the

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Speaker 4: kids an older model smartphone, so not the newest one,

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Speaker 4: but often getting them refurbished a couple of years old,

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Speaker 4: because the goal is not to spend too much money

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Speaker 4: on something that I feel is highly likely to get lost.

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Speaker 1: Although less so we actually have not had that much right.

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Speaker 4: You know, I assume that children who would like leave

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Speaker 4: their coats on buses and you know, leave glasses wherever,

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Speaker 4: would lose their smartphones too, But it turns out it's

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Speaker 4: like glued to them.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, they don't lose those quite as easily.

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Speaker 4: So that's when they get that, and then after two

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Speaker 4: years or so of responsible usage thereof can upgrade to

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Speaker 4: a newer model that's generally been it's they've used them differently.

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Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, everyone watches videos on it and texts

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Speaker 4: with their friends. Ruth has not really used her phone

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Speaker 4: as much. She hasn't liked having it with her. I

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Speaker 4: think she has her iPad and so it turned out

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Speaker 4: she could text friends from that as well.

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Speaker 1: That's actually been.

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Speaker 4: Something that I hadn't thought as much about needing to

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Speaker 4: monitor versus social media because everyone's like, oh, social media,

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Speaker 4: and to make sure they're not.

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Speaker 1: Exposed to it.

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Speaker 4: But you can give your kids private accounts or be

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Speaker 4: very explicit like you are not allowed to follow anything

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Speaker 4: like they ever say something that is does X, Y

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Speaker 4: or z. These are all things like red flags that

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Speaker 4: you absolutely cannot follow.

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Speaker 1: Don't do it, you know. And those are very.

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Speaker 4: Easy rules to at least explain, I mean hopefully whether

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Speaker 4: they follow through them it is a different matter, but

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Speaker 4: you could you can kind of be more clear on

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Speaker 4: stuff like that. But the children that you interact with

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Speaker 4: and that you do group texts with, they're your kid's peers,

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Speaker 4: and they have good days and they have bad days,

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Speaker 4: and they have some have stricter rules on when and

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Speaker 4: what they can text, and some don't, and some have

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Speaker 4: more You know that frontal lobe thing of thought through

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Speaker 4: whether this is a good idea.

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Speaker 1: To send this message versus not.

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Speaker 4: And so that's something that I've found a need to

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Speaker 4: monitor more and remind kids that you can exit a

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Speaker 4: group chat or just silence it if you don't want

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Speaker 4: people to know that you exit, you know, just say

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Speaker 4: or even just that if something happens in the group

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Speaker 4: chat that you are uncomfortable with, that you absolutely can

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Speaker 4: tell an adult and that would be a good idea.

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Speaker 4: And so that's something that I've you know, I hadn't

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Speaker 4: really thought about as much, but is more something that

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Speaker 4: I think parents will need to think about than what

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Speaker 4: strangers are telling your kid on the internet.

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Speaker 3: I will admit one of the reasons we didn't just

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Speaker 3: we actually have like an old iPhone lying around that

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Speaker 3: we could have just stuck a SIM card in, But

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Speaker 3: somebody warned me about air drop being used really indiscriminately

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Speaker 3: in like middle school and high school settings, and like

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Speaker 3: I wasn't ready to navigate that yet. Like the idea

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Speaker 3: that someone I mean, I guess someone could also text,

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Speaker 3: but someone the ability to like just like dump whatever

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Speaker 3: photos onto your kid's phone at any time that like

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Speaker 3: I wasn't quite ready for that, and that was something

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Speaker 3: I wasn't aware of. But apparently there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: like crulty and uncomfortable stuff that happens. But I think

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Speaker 3: again lines of communication, like if that happens, like it

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Speaker 3: should be no more secret than if they dropped a

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Speaker 3: photo on your desk, like a physical photo, right, Like

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Speaker 3: it's it's still real. Just because it's in your phone

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Speaker 3: doesn't It doesn't mean it's like governed in some separate

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Speaker 3: online universe.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, But the thing is we have to help kids

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00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 4: learn to navigate this stuff in general.

440
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:30,159
Speaker 1: Because they are going to be in this world. And

441
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:31,360
Speaker 1: so you can.

442
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 4: Pretend that it's nineteen ninety five, but then you're launching

443
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 4: a kid out into the world where they're going to

444
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 4: need a phone for their job or whatever, and they

445
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 4: completely have had.

446
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,400
Speaker 1: No experience with how to deal with the world.

447
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 4: And I think learning it through you it's just it's

448
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 4: like learning to drive. It's something that yes, you can

449
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,880
Speaker 4: learn as as an adult, and maybe there are your

450
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 4: brain is more developed at that point, but you also

451
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 4: you can learn those skills over time under your parents,

452
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,719
Speaker 4: as well as a chance to share some of your

453
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 4: values and one of the you know, we've got a

454
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 4: great interview coming up I think next week in that

455
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,880
Speaker 4: screen episode. But we talk about oftentimes people are like, well,

456
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 4: don't post X, don't say X online because you won't

457
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,360
Speaker 4: get into a good college, you won't get into you know,

458
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 4: you won't get a good job later or something like that,

459
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 4: which that's its own separate thing to navigate.

460
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 1: But the truth.

461
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 4: It's not that shouldn't be why you don't want your

462
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 4: kids doing it. It says you don't want people to

463
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 4: be cruel, and they can be cruel online and they

464
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 4: can be cruel in person, and you, as a parent

465
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 4: want to be sharing the value of like, we do

466
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 4: not behave cruelly to people in this family, and that's

467
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 4: this is what it means in person, and this is

468
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 4: what it means online. And that stems from there. You

469
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 4: know that you wouldn't post mean pictures of someone or

470
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 4: say something that was insensitive to somebody because of I

471
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 4: don't know, you know, whatever their disability or where they're

472
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 4: from or anything, because you're not a cruel person and

473
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 4: that would make them feel bad.

474
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,880
Speaker 1: And regardless of whether you're not.

475
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 4: Going to get into college because you did it, is

476
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 4: that we want to be empathetic human beings, and that's

477
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 4: the message you are trying to convey.

478
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's tough though, because you know, as you were

479
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 3: saying that and about the driving part of me is

480
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 3: like again going back to the level of neurological development

481
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 3: and like unleashing all of these early.

482
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: Pupertal brains with these systems.

483
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 3: It's a lot, and there might be something to be

484
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 3: said for like being more mature by the time you're

485
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 3: able to interact in that way, but again we can't.

486
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 3: There's not really anything we can do like that cat

487
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 3: is out of the bag, unfortunately, And unless there is

488
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 3: a society wide shift in what people are going to

489
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 3: all other kids to do, which I don't necessarily see happening,

490
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 3: especially not on a like a widespread basis, then we

491
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 3: don't really have a choice anyway.

492
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, let's take a quick ad break and we

493
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 4: will be back with more on kids and screens. Well,

494
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 4: we are back talking kids and screens. So, Sarah, how

495
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 4: do you see your kids and screens sort of? How

496
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 4: do you see this evolving over time? I mean, kids

497
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 4: do cool stuff online as well.

498
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, we're I mean we're definitely not going to

499
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 3: like stay a ludite, screen free.

500
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: Family or anything like that.

501
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,959
Speaker 3: I mean, I can't evolve too many years in advance

502
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 3: because my kids are going to change. I don't know

503
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 3: what they're going to need. I don't know how they

504
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 3: can respond to different things. So I don't even want

505
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 3: to like put myself into the prediction of like what

506
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 3: I'll do when they're in high school or something like that.

507
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 3: I think in the next year or so we will

508
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,479
Speaker 3: kind of. I think some kids in my family might

509
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 3: be ready to like move towards that, Like this is

510
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 3: when you can't have screen situation, and others are not

511
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 3: going to be ready for that, and they're still going

512
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 3: to be stuck with the this is when you can have.

513
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 1: Screens kind of a situation.

514
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 3: And I agree some screen time can be Again, the

515
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 3: social screen time is great YouTube, like when it's used

516
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 3: in a non five year old phonetically browsing kind of

517
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:24,719
Speaker 3: a way. If you're using it to like learn how

518
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 3: to do something, do a craft, or like learn some

519
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 3: science concept. There's some like really great creators out there,

520
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 3: so I'm not knocking all of it at all. I

521
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 3: enjoy watching Planner videos with Nabel, so you know there's that, Yeah.

522
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: I don't know.

523
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's just going to be a

524
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 3: more moderate version of what we were doing before, and

525
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 3: remaining open to what my kids need going forward, and

526
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 3: also staying in communication with other parents. I think this

527
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 3: is a topic where it is really really good to

528
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 3: talk to the other middle school parents about how they're

529
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 3: handling it. Because as much as your kid will come

530
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 3: home and say, oh, everyone has, you know, an iPhone twenty,

531
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 3: not that that exists yet, but.

532
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: You know what I mean, I'm sure it'll be here eventually.

533
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 3: It may be really helpful to get the story of

534
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 3: how others are helping their kids navigate this as well.

535
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, I have been told that other parents don't take

536
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 4: away their kids devices at night, and I'm like, well,

537
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 4: that's great for them. And I know because sometimes the

538
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 4: phones which sleep in my husband in my bedroom area

539
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 4: are not where I can hear them, but they do.

540
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 4: In fact, we've silenced them because they will ding in

541
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 4: the middle of the.

542
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: Night with kids who are texting.

543
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 4: You know, somebody didn't think about it and thought they'd

544
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 4: do it, you know. I don't know, So I know

545
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 4: that some people have not taken them away, or perhaps

546
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 4: their children have sneakily gotten them back.

547
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: I don't really know.

548
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 4: What's going on in other people's households, but yeah, you

549
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 4: absolutely can figure out what rules work for your family,

550
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 4: and I think that I would prefer to just not

551
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 4: have that battle every single night, and so because of that,

552
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 4: the phones can stay with me. And there are certain

553
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 4: trade offs then you have to make, Like I generally

554
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 4: do need to go check that people are up in

555
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 4: the morning or wake them up, because that's what you

556
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 4: would automatically use as an alarm clock. And you can

557
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 4: get old fashioned alarm clocks, but they're often a little

558
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 4: bit more complicated to.

559
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: Shift around or whatever.

560
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 4: So you know, because of that, I do wind up

561
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 4: going to get them in the morning, but that's fine.

562
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 4: I think that the community aspect is I like that

563
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 4: the kids set up their own get togethers, you know,

564
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 4: by texting, they can create their own social life. One

565
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 4: thing I'm definitely cognizant of with lots of little boys

566
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 4: is that many young men and boys in general really

567
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 4: enjoy video gaming and do it as a social group activity.

568
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: Right that you are all playing a game together, you

569
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: are I don't know what, I don't entirely.

570
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 4: Follow it, but you know, you're all battling on the

571
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 4: team and it's a strategy thing together. And just because

572
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 4: I didn't do that growing up doesn't mean it's less

573
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 4: valid as a way of interacting with your friends and

574
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 4: having a social life than whatever I would have come

575
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 4: up with. So I certainly don't want to come in

576
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 4: being like, ooh, this is bad because they're on screens

577
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 4: and that's not really interacting with your friends. So I'm

578
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 4: very aware of that. And you know, we're really not

579
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 4: that much on social media yet. Only only Jasper has

580
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 4: very limited social media that he does, and it I

581
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 4: just he.

582
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: Doesn't do that much of it.

583
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 4: Even we follow each other, and I'm aware of what

584
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 4: he's posting, but I'm not sure that that's entirely what

585
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 4: Some kids are probably more into it than others, but

586
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 4: I'm sure they'll come up with stuff that's totally different

587
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 4: than what we would be. I'm sure they all think

588
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 4: that like Facebook is for geezers at this point.

589
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 3: No, they definitely don't use I mean, they still use Snapchat.

590
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 3: It seems like in the middle school age group they

591
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 3: like TikTok, they like us to sort of. I don't know.

592
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: I think they like TikTok more.

593
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 3: I mean, there does seem to be some fairly copelling

594
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 3: data that, especially for teenage girls, that heavier use of

595
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 3: social media may be associated with like more mental health

596
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 3: issues and a lot of body image stuff, confidence stuff,

597
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 3: And that is a category of content that I'd like

598
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 3: to push off for as long as possible and make

599
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 3: sure that again open lines of communication around them, because

600
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 3: I think you can end up like in like a

601
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 3: very compelling, like fake world in social media, particularly if

602
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 3: you're suffering from certain mental health issues, that could be

603
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 3: very unhealthy because it breaks off communication from others who

604
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 3: might be able to help you in the real world.

605
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: So I don't know.

606
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 3: I mean, there's certainly some helpful resources as well, and

607
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 3: I feel like TikTok especially, I don't use TikTok, but

608
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 3: from what I've heard, like there's a lot positive about

609
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 3: like being open about mental health struggles and like where

610
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 3: to find help and things like that.

611
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: So I get it.

612
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 3: This is not all black and white, but I do

613
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 3: feel like to me that that's where the mind fields

614
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 3: seem like they are. And I'm not gonna pretend like

615
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 3: I know what I'm doing at this point. With the

616
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 3: ages of my kids. I just I know I'm going

617
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 3: to have my guard up. Let's just put it that way, Oh.

618
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: Your guard up.

619
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 4: But everything is the world we create with our our

620
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 4: online you know, what we choose to follow, and that's

621
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 4: you know, partly what it shows us. And with young

622
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 4: girls in particular, I think what's kind of cool as

623
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 4: all this has developed is when we were growing up,

624
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 4: there were only the newstand magazines that and whatever you

625
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 4: saw on TV was the image of beauty.

626
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: And because of that, it was fairly narrow.

627
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 4: You know, at least in the eighties and nineties, people

628
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 4: were starting to recognize that there were not only white

629
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:46,719
Speaker 4: women in the world, but they were still all very

630
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 4: very skinny, right, and you know, it was this one

631
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 4: one body shape and that's what you see and compare

632
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 4: yourself to. Whereas I think the precisely because social media

633
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 4: has a lowed for more content creators to be out there,

634
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 4: you see a wider variety of attractive people and they're

635
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 4: just it wouldn't have made it over the gatekeepers, what

636
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 4: they would have allowed into these narrow range of magazines.

637
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 4: But because it's whatever people click on, whatever they view,

638
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 4: you just have more diversity in that and because of that,

639
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 4: you get different body shapes, you get people with birthmarks

640
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 4: of all things, you know, our freckles or teeth that

641
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 4: look different or you know whatever. Then obviously diversity in

642
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 4: terms of skin color and background and all that.

643
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: So I think that's one of the cooler things about it.

644
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: So you know, it's there are upsides.

645
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I take that with a little bit of a

646
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 3: grain of salt, because every teenager I see trying to

647
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 3: take a picture of themselves is still trying to contort

648
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 3: themselves into as thin appearing as possible. Like, I don't

649
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 3: think just because there are more and it's wonderful, I

650
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 3: agree with you that there's more creators out there, does

651
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 3: it mean that people haven't still have like abandoned the

652
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 3: prior quote unquote ideals and that social media can't be

653
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 3: a tool for people to kind of test out different

654
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 3: looks and see what people quote unquote like and like

655
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 3: become very upset if they don't like this or like

656
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 3: I just yeah, you can tell. I mean, I think

657
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 3: there are some great things. I think it's also a

658
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 3: minefield and I don't think I'm going to change my

659
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 3: thoughts about that.

660
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 4: Well, and you know, and then there's also the question of, like,

661
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 4: if kids are creative like and have things that they

662
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 4: want to share with the world, there's also.

663
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 1: Some upsides there.

664
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 4: There was briefly a period where Jasper was thinking of

665
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 4: starting a podcast, and yeah, that's just something like you

666
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,359
Speaker 4: wouldn't have even had ability to do twenty thirty years ago.

667
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,720
Speaker 4: That you have this idea that you can put out there,

668
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 4: or you know kids who are into photography or art,

669
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 4: or you know, that you can share your writing with

670
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 4: the world.

671
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, when I was learning.

672
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 4: To write, it was very much you had to go

673
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 4: through the gatekeepers, and so there's a limited amount of

674
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 4: stuff that can get out there, and it's harder to

675
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 4: get a start, and that's less less the case now

676
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,399
Speaker 4: and so I think that's you know, a.

677
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: Cool upside too.

678
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 4: Or or making friends with people who are like you

679
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 4: but who aren't in your geographic location, and I think

680
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 4: that is the ability to find online communities of like

681
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 4: minded people is another really cool thing. So any child

682
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 4: who has, you know, a neurological difference or who you

683
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 4: know has some sort of special need that there are

684
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 4: communities of people like that that you might be the

685
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 4: only person like you in your school but you're certainly

686
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 4: not the only person like you in the world, and

687
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 4: you can make friends with other children who are going

688
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 4: through similar things and be part of these online communities

689
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 4: as well.

690
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's an upside too. That one's an upside.

691
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: I can I can get behind that one. I can

692
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 1: get both of them. I just there's both. That's just

693
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: a mixed picture.

694
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 4: Nothing is all good or bad, right, I mean, technology

695
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 4: is it's a tool, and you can use it for good,

696
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 4: you could use it for evil. Most of us are

697
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 4: somewhere in the you know, banality of the middle right.

698
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,399
Speaker 1: And and that's that's how we tend to act or

699
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,359
Speaker 1: interact with these things. And I think our kids will

700
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: will find that as well.

701
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 4: So pivoting to today's question, So this is from a

702
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 4: listener who was thinking about planning and such and then

703
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 4: listen to us talk about what was it our was

704
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 4: this our list of.

705
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: One hundred dreams episode dreams?

706
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 3: Yes?

707
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 4: And I mentioned the Highlights Retreat Highlights Foundation Retreats Center

708
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 4: in the Polkados as a place that I would like

709
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 4: to do a writing retreat sometime that somebody suggested to me,

710
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 4: but it was booked when I was looking but anyway,

711
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 4: it wasn't booked for when this listener was looking, so

712
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 4: she heard it, found it, went loved it. But anyway,

713
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 4: she asked us going into this event of how she

714
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 4: should structure her days at a retreat in order to

715
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 4: you know, have realistic expectations, but also make the most

716
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 4: of this deep thing time. And she says specifically she

717
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 4: had sort of Monday to Thursday. She had two full

718
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 4: days in the middle and two half days on either side.

719
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 4: How would you structure a retreat where you're trying to

720
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 4: get some stuff done also relax and enjoy yourself use

721
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 4: the deep thinking time, Sarah, what would you do?

722
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would definitely go in with a bit of

723
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 3: a plan, and I would not be too ambitious with

724
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 3: your plan. Like, I think that is the way to

725
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 3: kill the mood on your retreat is give yourself fifty

726
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 3: things to do and then be like frustrated when you

727
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 3: can't get them done. I also think you should kind

728
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 3: of decide or think about deciding in advance that like

729
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 3: you're going to be done at a certain time so

730
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 3: you really can have that deep rest and like, you know,

731
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 3: if you've decided that shut down is four pm, then

732
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 3: of course, if the meuse strikes you and you end

733
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 3: up going farther, fine, but it gives you a nice

734
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 3: out and then you kind of know, like, Okay, I've

735
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 3: already given myself derision to just enjoy like a walk

736
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 3: in the woods and like a really RESTful night of sleep,

737
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 3: and you know, whatever it is, and I would try to.

738
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 3: I mean, if it were me, i'd probably do some

739
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 3: sort of like combination of like concrete work and like

740
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 3: more dreamy work, like you know, editing some draft, but

741
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 3: then also like give myself freedom to take a walk

742
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 3: and think.

743
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: About my next project. So yeah, this sounds amazing. I'm

744
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: very excited for you.

745
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 3: I just think the biggest pitfall would be going in

746
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 3: with like the idea that you're going to get like

747
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 3: an unrealistic number of things done that will kill your

748
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 3: mood and then we'll do a new relaxation.

749
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: So don't do that. Yeah, don't do that.

750
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 4: When I have taken these sorts of retreats, it has

751
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 4: always been because I have a project that is in

752
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,879
Speaker 4: a specific state whereas that it is close to done,

753
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 4: it's pretty good, but I would like to fully get

754
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 4: myself in the brain space of editing it and meaning

755
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 4: that I'm not dealing with family matters. I don't have

756
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 4: to stop at a specific time. I can just sort

757
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 4: of keep going as I need to.

758
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 1: And so, you know, that's when I've got a book

759
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 1: in that stage.

760
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 4: And it doesn't take long to get through these books

761
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 4: when you're like it, because I'm just editing fairly quickly

762
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 4: as I'm going through. But it's I'm absorbing chapter after another.

763
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 4: I'm not like artificially stopping because like Monday, I do

764
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 4: chapter two, and then Tuesday I do chapter three, and well,

765
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 4: you know, who knows is the chapter the transition between

766
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 4: chapter two and chapter three good. But I've had a

767
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 4: whole day, so what do I know? You know, whereas

768
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 4: the reader won't have that if they aren't stopping in

769
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 4: between each chapter. So that's when I have generally taken

770
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 4: those And so because of that, it is primarily driven.

771
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: By the work. You know, what I do. I need

772
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,240
Speaker 1: to eat, but I try.

773
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 4: To kind of minimize the Ti've devoted to that I'll

774
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 4: off and have stuff in my room. Even I do

775
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 4: tend to like run in the morning just because it's

776
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 4: a good way to get up and get moving, and

777
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 4: then we'll work and work and then at some point

778
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 4: you still do need a break, so that's like a

779
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 4: good time to get like a sandwich out and then

780
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 4: go for a little walk. I find that if I

781
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 4: didn't have kind of my family around me in the

782
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,760
Speaker 4: structure and the times when I haven't had my ideal

783
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 4: work is, you know, I start in the morning and

784
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 4: go to sort of mid afternoon, take some time off,

785
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 4: and then kind of go in the afternoon maybe you know,

786
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 4: eat something, but possibly even eat it at my computer

787
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 4: and go into the night, like go to eleven o'clock

788
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 4: at night with it. And so that's what I try

789
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 4: to do on those retreats, is have the kind of

790
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 4: midday break and then do the work around it at

791
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 4: the times when I would do it if I didn't

792
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 4: have the sort of family responsibilities that I have.

793
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 1: But yeah, make sure that.

794
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 4: You can do what you're going to do, because you

795
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 4: want to come out of this retreat feeling successful.

796
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 1: So I guess I wouldn't really take.

797
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 4: A retreat saying I want to think deep thoughts because

798
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 4: that's a little bit of pressure, Like what are those

799
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:36,240
Speaker 4: deep thoughts?

800
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, maybe you'll think deep thoughts, but.

801
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 4: I would give yourself a specific thought that you want

802
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 4: to think deeply about, Like I want to come up

803
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,760
Speaker 4: with three things I could pursue, like three research projects

804
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:51,800
Speaker 4: I could pursue over the next year, Right, Like those

805
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 4: that would be a question you could have a more

806
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 4: focused look at or else something like I did, like

807
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,040
Speaker 4: I want to get through this project and finish it

808
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 4: over the.

809
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: Course of the retreat. So yeah, that's what I would do.

810
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 3: Love it Yours definitely sounds more grueling than hers, but

811
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 3: different goals, right, you were like, this is my chance

812
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 3: getting it done, and she said she wanted to.

813
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 1: Recuperate and work on a little research.

814
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 3: So yes, maybe slightly different agenda, but and I love that,

815
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 3: Like give yourself permission to like deep thoughts, but with

816
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 3: a structure. With this structure, think of I want to

817
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 3: have three like deliverables by the end.

818
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 1: That sounds good, all right.

819
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 4: So Love of the Week, Sarah, I'm gonna say, I

820
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 4: just put a white noise app on my phone. We

821
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 4: were in a place we were just recording this after

822
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 4: a holiday weekend and had multiple ones of us in

823
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,919
Speaker 4: one room, and it just helps with everyone sleeping because

824
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 4: if somebody is making noise while sleeping, then the white

825
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 4: noise kind of drowns it all out, and you know,

826
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 4: it's just you can turn it out quite loud and

827
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 4: it doesn't keep people from sleeping if it sounds like

828
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 4: wind or a fan or something like that. So yeah,

829
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 4: it was I paid for an app that makes white noise,

830
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 4: but I felt like then it would keep going, whereas

831
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:07,720
Speaker 4: I don't trying and pull it up on YouTube.

832
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 1: Who knows, we'll be listening to some ad in the

833
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: middle of the night and that would destroy the whole

834
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: benefit to it. So there you go.

835
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 3: I've done that on Apple Music, and it's bad because

836
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 3: it would be like white noise. Then it will stop

837
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 3: and do like a different kind of white noise.

838
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 1: No, that's not I didn't want that different kind of

839
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 1: white noise.

840
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 3: So I think that's a worthwhile app definitely, especially because

841
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 3: like it's replacing a whole machine that you could buy,

842
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 3: so it's probably cheaper than that. My love of the

843
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 3: week is are you there, God, It's Me Margaret, which

844
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 3: I'm sure will be available for streaming soon, maybe by

845
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 3: the time The Stairs because it's kind of on its

846
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 3: way out of theaters.

847
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: But Saw with Annabel and which your kids could then

848
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: have on screens. Yes, it's such a good movie.

849
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 3: Like I just I read the book twenty times, as

850
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 3: I did with most of her books growing up, and

851
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 3: they were really really true, Like I mean, I remembered

852
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 3: specific lines like they did an amazing job adapting that,

853
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 3: and it's such a great book anyway, So I'm just

854
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:01,879
Speaker 3: glad I got to do that while it was still

855
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 3: in theaters.

856
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:03,439
Speaker 1: Yay, yay.

857
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 4: Well, this has been best of both worlds. We've been

858
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 4: talking about kids and screens. This is the first part

859
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,240
Speaker 4: in our three part series on kids. Well I'm on screens.

860
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 4: We're doing kids and screens this time. I'm going to

861
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 4: be talking to Devora Heidner next week on growing up

862
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 4: in public and her expert opinion on kids and screens

863
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,359
Speaker 4: and such, and then we'll be talking about our own

864
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 4: screen time habits in a later episode. So please keep

865
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 4: tuning in and we will be back next week with

866
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 4: more on making work and life fit together.

867
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the

868
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 3: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram,

869
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 3: and you.

870
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 2: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This

871
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 2: has been the best of both Worlds Podcasts. Please join

872
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 2: us next time for more on making work and life

873
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 2: work together.