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Speaker 1: Quody diners, but Joseph S gotten more. You know. One

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Speaker 1: of the most amazing things I think that I saw

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Speaker 1: that I wasn't expecting to see one day. This is

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Speaker 1: going to seem very benign for many of our friends

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Speaker 1: out there. And there I happened to be in South

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Speaker 1: Georgia and I was tooling down the road with my

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Speaker 1: wife so many years ago, and as far as the

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Speaker 1: eye could see, I saw vast fields of green, green grass.

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Speaker 1: I know that sounds like that, you know that weird

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Speaker 1: song from the seventies where the guy you know interestingly

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Speaker 1: enough that I think died and he was searching for

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Speaker 1: the green, green grass of home. But it turns out

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Speaker 1: that what I was seeing, because it had the big

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Speaker 1: irrigation cranes that kind of rolled back and forth oward

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Speaker 1: I saw side farm. I've never seen anything like that,

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Speaker 1: And as we went further down the road, I saw

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Speaker 1: where it was being cut and rolled, which is a

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Speaker 1: pretty fascinating process, you know, just to kind of see

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Speaker 1: those large stacks of grass that had been rolled up

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Speaker 1: like giant green cinnamon rolls and were laid there. Now,

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Speaker 1: as you can imagine, I'm kind of a nerd, so

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Speaker 1: that thing that type of thing, you know, fascinates me.

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Speaker 1: But today I'm going to talk about a couple of

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Speaker 1: cases and one actually involves SOD and it's doesn't end well.

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Speaker 1: Matter of fact, it ends quite tragically with a twenty

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Speaker 1: four month old little child being saturated in her parents'

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Speaker 1: blood being found strapped into a car seat in her parents' vehicle.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs, Dave.

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you something, not to belabor this

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Speaker 1: point too much, but can you tell me do you

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Speaker 1: remember looking back in tom what was your first Major

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Speaker 1: League baseball game that you ever went to?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Wow, it would be the California Angels and the

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Speaker 2: Boston Red Sox.

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Speaker 1: So obviously since an Anaheim Stadium, do you how old

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Speaker 1: were you? Do you re call? Do you remember walking

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Speaker 1: up through the tunnel and like when you step out

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Speaker 1: onto that landing now where you're going to go to

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Speaker 1: your seat, and you look down on that field for

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Speaker 1: the first time, and it is it's something that just

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Speaker 1: like stays with you. It is a young person's mind

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Speaker 1: is striking the grass in particular, everything's so groomed.

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Speaker 2: It was that I haven't thought about that in forever

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Speaker 2: and yet the minute you said it came right back

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Speaker 2: to me. I remember standing right there and as the

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Speaker 2: field open, because as a child being a little leaguer

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Speaker 2: and seeing a real field, it was amazing the size

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Speaker 2: of it. That's what got made was the size and

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Speaker 2: the ground.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the big light stanchions if their own. When

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Speaker 1: my first game I ever went to was a Braves game,

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Speaker 1: and I think they were playing the Reds. It's still

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Speaker 1: actually when, or maybe it was Houston. The Braves used

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Speaker 1: to be in the Western Division of the National National

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Speaker 1: Baseball League. Made no sense and yeah, no, kid, they

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Speaker 1: were with the Dodgers. I know if you recall that

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Speaker 1: all back in the seventies. Yeah, of course you do,

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Speaker 1: you're the baseball guy here. But yeah, I remember coming

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Speaker 1: up out of that tunnel and seeing that and just

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Speaker 1: the color of the grass and how groomed the infield

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Speaker 1: was because I was playing the little league at the

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Speaker 1: same time, and you know we had to There was

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Speaker 1: a hu each chunks of rocks in our infield. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and the grass was all worn out. But you know,

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Speaker 1: it stays with you.

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Speaker 2: And I got to give you a piece of trivia.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned well, you mentioned Houston and you know the Astros.

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Speaker 2: Do you know what they were originally called. They were

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Speaker 2: not called the Astros. They were called the Houston forty five.

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Speaker 2: That's right. They changed their name when they built the Astrodome,

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Speaker 2: the Eighth Wonder of the World. Remember that it was

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Speaker 2: so big and.

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Speaker 1: An astrodome because NASA was there. Yeah, you know it was.

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Speaker 2: That's crazy, that's astro. So there you got a little

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Speaker 2: bit of trivia.

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Speaker 1: Get a little bit. You get a little bit for uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, for your for your dom spent here on

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Speaker 1: body bags. But you know that we had something unique

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Speaker 1: happen this week. I say it's unique. Uh, it's not,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's not unheard of. However, I felt like

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Speaker 1: that it was kind of apropos that we have a

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Speaker 1: chat today. We had here in the US. We had

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Speaker 1: two executions that took place at the same time or

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Speaker 1: the same week this past week. And in addition to that,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to raise this guy's name. There has been

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Speaker 1: conversation that we'll get to later about Brian Koberger and

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Speaker 1: what's on the table for him if in fact he's

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Speaker 1: found guilty in the murders of the Ihido Idaho four.

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Speaker 1: So you know, it's like the store and the stars

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Speaker 1: kind of aligned about these cases. And the first case

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Speaker 1: that you know we're kind of dealing with today is

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Speaker 1: involving from back in nineteen ninety seven, involving a family

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Speaker 1: that went on fishing trip. They were invited to go fishing,

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Speaker 1: and they brought their twenty four month old child with them,

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Speaker 1: and mom and dad didn't make it.

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Speaker 2: Dave, you know when you mentioned sod farm, I didn't

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Speaker 2: know what a sod farm was until I moved to

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Speaker 2: Alabama back in the day, and as we were driving

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Speaker 2: down the interstate, saw this area of just beautiful grass,

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Speaker 2: just beautiful grass, and I'm looking at them, going, I

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Speaker 2: wonder what that is.

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Speaker 1: You know, when.

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Speaker 2: You're driving cross country, it's a wonderful thing to see

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Speaker 2: this country as it unfolds before your eyes. You see

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Speaker 2: all the different geography that we have. And I saw

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Speaker 2: that grass and I remember thinking what is that and

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Speaker 2: found out later on that it was a sawed farm

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Speaker 2: and that that's where they grow grass that you put

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Speaker 2: in your people's yards and everywhere else. But it's an

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Speaker 2: amazing time this week when as I started reading this

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Speaker 2: story Joe and trying to catch up to it, the

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Speaker 2: biggest thing that hits you is that it happened in

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Speaker 2: front of their twenty three month old child. That's for starters.

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Speaker 2: Second of all, some people have memories that go back

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Speaker 2: to that early age. I know some people who can

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Speaker 2: remember it eighteen months and past that, you know, But

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Speaker 2: twenty three months her mom and dad were murdered in

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Speaker 2: front of her. They were invited her mom and dad.

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Speaker 2: And this is the part that you know, I always

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Speaker 2: wonder what was the genesis of the story in this case.

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Speaker 2: Gregory and Kimberly Mountinrory. They were just a good couple.

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Speaker 2: They were the couple everybody liked. They were nice, they

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Speaker 2: were smart, good country people, and greg in particular love

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Speaker 2: to fish. He would not miss a chance to go fishing.

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Speaker 2: And Kimberly and loved to fish too, And so they

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Speaker 2: were invited by James Ford to go on a fishing trip.

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Speaker 2: Apparently there were ponds around this sod farm where they worked.

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Speaker 2: I'm guessing that's where they got the water to feed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there were retention ponds probably, And you

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Speaker 1: can catch bluegill, you know, sunfish, or crappie or you know,

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Speaker 1: any number of types of panfish out there. And how

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Speaker 1: much fun is that, you know, to be able to

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Speaker 1: do that. I agree, I don't ever miss an opportunity

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Speaker 1: of fishing, and particularly family. There's just something about.

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Speaker 2: It, man, And that's what they were doing. And apparently

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Speaker 2: they thought they were with a friend. The Malinery's thought

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Speaker 2: James Ford was a friend, and yeah, they were all

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Speaker 2: about the same age, you know. This happened in nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety seven, and it turned out that James Ford was

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Speaker 2: not their friend. And once they got out there, according

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Speaker 2: to law enforcement, they believe that James Ford shot and

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Speaker 2: killed Greg Malnory. First shot him in the back of

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Speaker 2: the head with a twenty two caliber rifle. Then I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna lay this out there. I really need an explanation

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Speaker 2: because I don't understand why. But they say that he

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Speaker 2: was shot in the back of the head and then

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Speaker 2: beaten and his throat was slit. And then while he

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Speaker 2: was doing that, apparently Kimberly Malory was able to get

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Speaker 2: their daughter, their twenty three month old daughter strapped into

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Speaker 2: the truck and was able to get her safe in there,

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Speaker 2: and then she was murder well, she was raped, beaten,

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Speaker 2: then murdered with the twenty two. So I was wondering

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Speaker 2: how did they actually save her by putting her in

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Speaker 2: the truck, And you know, I kind of you have

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Speaker 2: to assume, Okay, put her in the car and lock

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Speaker 2: the doors. Maybe or somehow mom knew to put her

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Speaker 2: in the truck, and that's what happened, and she was

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Speaker 2: murdered as well. James Ford did not harm the baby,

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Speaker 2: but she was found the next day. She's there in

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Speaker 2: front of her mom and dad being murdered. And when

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Speaker 2: they found the little girl, the twenty three month old

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Speaker 2: the next day, she had insect bites, she was dehydrated.

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Speaker 2: I mean, bless her heart, you know, it was it

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Speaker 2: was something, but she was all right, she's.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, And you know, there are those of us.

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Speaker 1: I still have a memory, I think when I was three,

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Speaker 1: of sitting down on a space heater, a big metal

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Speaker 1: space heater, and burning the back of my leg. Now

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Speaker 1: I don't remember all of the details, but I remember

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Speaker 1: the pain associated with it. And you know, Miranda Malnory,

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Speaker 1: the child at the time, she's now a grown young woman.

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Speaker 1: She doesn't have specific According to her, she doesn't have

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Speaker 1: specific memories. I think that she's got this kind of

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Speaker 1: fragmented thing that goes on, and you know, Dave, she

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Speaker 1: did not learn the truth, the full truth of what

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Speaker 1: actually occurred that night relative to her parents until she

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Speaker 1: was thirteen years old. So can you imagine that looking

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Speaker 1: back over time, particularly the age she's at now, You

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Speaker 1: look back over time and you think that that one night,

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Speaker 1: you know, it changed my life in the sense that

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Speaker 1: my parents were brutally executed there in my presence or

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Speaker 1: in proximity to me. But you know, I brushed against

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Speaker 1: death that night. I was spared.

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Speaker 2: She also said that whereas so many people when they

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Speaker 2: have a loss like that, they talk about the person

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Speaker 2: in the past tense of what they were like and

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Speaker 2: what they did and the shared memories, but she said

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Speaker 2: that when she grieves her parents, it's what could have been,

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Speaker 2: because all she knows are the memories of what people

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Speaker 2: told her about her parents, what a great couple they were,

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Speaker 2: how they got along. And so for her, the pain

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Speaker 2: is that she didn't have the life that she could

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Speaker 2: have had with loving parents. I mean, I think that

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Speaker 2: is such an incredible way of looking at life. You

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Speaker 2: know that she must be a very special woman.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm sure that she is, you know, And

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Speaker 1: I have to tell you, you know, being the fact that

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Speaker 1: Ford was in fact executed at Rape prison this past week.

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Speaker 1: She you know, she waived her her right to be there.

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Speaker 1: And I can I can understand why I've had the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to attend executions and I turned it down every

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Speaker 1: single time that it was offered to me. I think

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Speaker 1: it was three three opportunities that I've had to attend executions.

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Speaker 1: And it's because even even with an execution, there still

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Speaker 1: has to be an autopsy. And so there's a representative

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Speaker 1: from the state Medical exam Yeah what yeah, yeah, because yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: what's classification of this death if we're looking at it.

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Speaker 1: What manner of death is this? It's not an accident? Wow,

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Speaker 1: it's a homicide. Yeah, it's a homicide. Yeah. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's death at the hand of it another. So in Georgia,

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Speaker 1: those bodies, those bodies are in fact autopsy, and it

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Speaker 1: is a thorough autopsy. I'm talking about the most thorough

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Speaker 1: autopsy you will ever see. And I think I've addressed

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Speaker 1: this before, but just so that our listeners understand, the

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Speaker 1: backs of the legs, the arms, the actual back, the

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Speaker 1: soles of the feet, the palms of the hands, they're

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Speaker 1: all dissected, every bit of it. The back of the

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Speaker 1: back of the neck is thoroughly dissected, so that when

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Speaker 1: when we have the body and the morgue, every surface

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Speaker 1: of the body is opened. And one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: is that this is done, and this was how it

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Speaker 1: was explained to me, was that they want to ensure

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Speaker 1: that they have demonstrated they the state has demonstrated that

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Speaker 1: this individual prior to their death wasn't abused in any way,

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Speaker 1: that they weren't beaten, you know, that they weren't tortured

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Speaker 1: or anything like that. You know. And now I have

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Speaker 1: participated and been present for the autopsies of executed individuals.

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Speaker 1: But you know, Dave, when that offer and excuse me,

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Speaker 1: let me think just for a second, is twice two

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Speaker 1: times I was offered the opportunity to be present for

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Speaker 1: the autopsy as kind of the entourage for the medical

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Speaker 1: examer because the medical examiner will go there and they're

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Speaker 1: not even the prison physician that checks, you know, because

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Speaker 1: they checked to see for signs of They're just there

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Speaker 1: to witness it, almost like an academic pursuit. There's all

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Speaker 1: kinds of the report is very extensive. So if you

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Speaker 1: have the Emmy there they can include that in their report.

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Speaker 1: You know, they can talk about everything they saw, the

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Speaker 1: drug that were administered, talk about the methodology, all that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. And David, I got to tell you, brother,

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Speaker 1: I've got so much horrible stuff in my brain that

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Speaker 1: I didn't voluntarily receive. You know, It's like stuff I

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Speaker 1: was subjected to on scenes. I've paid a price for

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Speaker 1: it throughout the years, and I could not see how

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Speaker 1: can I say this. I could not justify adding one

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Speaker 1: more thing to that. Even though you know, every medical

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Speaker 1: examiner I've ever spoken to that was present for autops

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Speaker 1: I mean for executions, they always say the same thing.

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Speaker 1: It's very very anti climactic. You know, it's not like

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Speaker 1: some you know, it's not like King Charles walking up

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Speaker 1: onto the scaffoleen and you know, I go from what

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Speaker 1: was that he said before he is beheaded, he says,

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Speaker 1: I go from the corruptible I think, the corruptible throne

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Speaker 1: to the incorruptible throne, and you know his head is lopf.

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Speaker 1: It's nothing traumatic like that. They're let in, they're strapped

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Speaker 1: to the table, they have an IV set up, and

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Speaker 1: drugs are pushed. But even for that day. And I

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Speaker 1: don't want to make this all It's not all about me,

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Speaker 1: But I'm just talking about somebody that's had experience. It's

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Speaker 1: not something I wanted to add to the library in

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Speaker 1: my brain.

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Speaker 2: If you will, None of us have that experience except

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Speaker 2: for you, Joe, and that's why I am so thankful

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Speaker 2: that you have taken this part of your career and

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Speaker 2: have used it to share what you've learned on the

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Speaker 2: scene and academically to help all of us understand the

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Speaker 2: process of what It never occurred to me that in

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Speaker 2: the case of somebody who is sentenced to death, that

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Speaker 2: there would actually have to be a definition. There would

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Speaker 2: actually have to be the manner of death. And I

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Speaker 2: would think the manner of death would be execution. You

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Speaker 2: know that we could call it that because it is

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Speaker 2: different than a homicide. In that homicide, I look at it, well,

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Speaker 2: it's death at the hand of another. So I get it.

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Speaker 2: I understand it. I don't like I don't like that.

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Speaker 2: I'd like to push that button, but I don't want

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Speaker 2: you to call me a killer.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, uh, there are a lot of people

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Speaker 1: that line up, uh, you know when these horrible cases

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Speaker 1: take place and they'll say, well, I wish they'd give

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Speaker 1: me the opportunity to do it. I got to tell you,

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Speaker 1: I understand why people say that. However, be very very

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Speaker 1: careful what you wish for, because, in my opinion, the

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Speaker 1: burden that you have to bear for that outweighs any

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Speaker 1: kind of reward that you might receive from the pleasure

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Speaker 1: of any somebody else's life. This past the life of

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Speaker 1: James Dennis Ford, who was sixty four by the way,

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Speaker 1: came to the end. Came to his end at the

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Speaker 1: tip of a needle where drugs were pushed into his

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Speaker 1: system and he is no more. However, you know, probably

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Speaker 1: maybe one thousand miles away, maybe eight hundred miles away

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Speaker 1: is more accurately, is more accurately stated. We had another

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Speaker 1: execution that was going on, David. This one was in Texas,

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Speaker 1: which is in Huntsville, Texas, the East Park of Texas,

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Speaker 1: where we had another subject that was executed this past week.

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Speaker 1: That was the circumstances were not the same as they

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Speaker 1: were with Ford. We're talking about Richard Lee Tabler, who

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Speaker 1: is let's face it, this guy is a mass killer

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Speaker 1: and he he wound up dying at the end of

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Speaker 1: the needle as well.

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Speaker 2: Day, well, I want to when we were looking at

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Speaker 2: these okay and talking about executions in the same week,

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Speaker 2: you know, and it was odd to have to. We

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Speaker 2: have had weeks and you mentioned this earlier. We've had

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Speaker 2: weeks where we had multiple executions. It just doesn't happen

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Speaker 2: that often. And no it doesn't, I'm but having it

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Speaker 2: like it was last time, it gives you the opportunity

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Speaker 2: to truly look at the different crimes and the different punishment,

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Speaker 2: how long it took to get from one to the other.

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Speaker 2: For instance, you mentioned just a minute ago about Ford

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Speaker 2: in the he was sixty four, you know when he

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Speaker 2: was put to death in twenty twenty five, but when

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Speaker 2: he committed the murder in nineteen ninety seven, talking what

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Speaker 2: twenty eight, twenty eight years ago? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: mean he was thirty six, and so Elate's.

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Speaker 1: That he had the mind of a thirteen, right, same tom.

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Speaker 1: But how many times do we hear that.

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Speaker 2: All the time, all the time. And so in this

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Speaker 2: case we have Richard Lee Tabler, who is forty five.

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Speaker 2: He too committed murder and by the way, he actually

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Speaker 2: is suspected in the murder of four people at least

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Speaker 2: only convicted of two And I want to ask you

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Speaker 2: about this, but here's the setup. Mohammad I mean Romani,

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Speaker 2: twenty five year old nightclub manager and his best friend

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Speaker 2: Hatum Frank Zayad, who was twenty eight, also worked in

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Speaker 2: the club. Richard Lee Tabler had been fired from the

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Speaker 2: club when he came into a disagreement with Romani, but

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Speaker 2: they were still in contact with one another. And Tabler,

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Speaker 2: who was a look the guy had a career as

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Speaker 2: a criminal. He was a young guy, but still he

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Speaker 2: was a criminal even in his early twenties.

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Speaker 1: I think he originated out of California. He was originally Yeah.

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Speaker 2: He ran away and he lived by stealing, and he'd

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Speaker 2: been in and out of trouble. It wasn't like he

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Speaker 2: was very good at his profession of being a criminal,

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Speaker 2: because he was constantly caught. But he was never caught

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Speaker 2: for that big thing until it got to this point

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Speaker 2: where it escalated to where he murders Mohammad, I mean

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Speaker 2: Romani and Frank Zayed. And the thing is he lured

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Speaker 2: them to their death. He firstly, he had a friend

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Speaker 2: help him who he rolled over on right away. Timothy Payin,

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Speaker 2: Timothy Pain and Richard Tabler actually lured Mohammad I Mean

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Speaker 2: Romani and his friend Frank Zayed to a meeting to

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Speaker 2: make a deal on stolen stereo equipment, all of them

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Speaker 2: criminals together at the club that Romani is the general manager.

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Speaker 2: It's a strip club and by the way, underage strippers

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Speaker 2: on top of everything else. So we're not dealing with

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Speaker 2: a lot of people here that you would normally come

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Speaker 2: in contact with unless you were on the criminal side

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Speaker 2: of life. And when Richard Tabler decided to take revenge

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Speaker 2: on Romani, he brings in his buddy Timothy Pain, They

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Speaker 2: lure them to their death spot and he kills them.

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Speaker 2: He kills Tabler is convicted of killing Romani and Zayed.

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Speaker 2: Now this on Thanksgiving Day two thousand and four. Two

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Speaker 2: days later, a couple of the strippers at the club,

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Speaker 2: a sixteen year old girl named Amanda Benefield and her

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Speaker 2: eighteen year old buddy, Tiffany Dotson. They're questioning Tabler about

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Speaker 2: the murders. You know, what happened? What do you know?

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Speaker 2: And they were saying enough that Tabler said that it's enough,

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Speaker 2: and according to law enforcement, he killed those girls as well.

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Speaker 2: Now we don't know any of the details because Tabler

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Speaker 2: was never charged in their murders. I've always thought they

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Speaker 2: held that in the back pocket unless something happened and

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Speaker 2: he got away with Romani and Zayed with those murders,

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Speaker 2: you know, on a technicality or something. I think they

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Speaker 2: held back because there's no statute of limitations on murder

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Speaker 2: that never goes away.

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Speaker 1: You know. And he, you know, until he breathed his

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Speaker 1: last he denied any any involvement in Dotson and Benefil's

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Speaker 1: death at all. Of course, he's going to say that.

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Speaker 1: What's fascinating to me about this case is that even

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Speaker 1: after he he has essentially him and his friend have

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Speaker 1: executed these these two two guys from the club that

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Speaker 1: manage the club, they're still he's still he's still in

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Speaker 1: the the orbit of the club, so much so that

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Speaker 1: you know, he's associating with these two well one underage

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Speaker 1: underage stripper, and that he's still you know, it would

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Speaker 1: seem to me at least that you would want to

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Speaker 1: put as much a distance between between yourself and any association,

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Speaker 1: you know, with the club itself, because you know, those

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Speaker 1: things add up very quickly. They certainly added up into

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Speaker 1: you know, uh, in to the mind of these two strippers.

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Speaker 1: You know that they were putting two and two together.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I think that that thread, Dave, that

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Speaker 1: you mentioned, just a moment ago that runs through all

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Speaker 1: of this, is that Tabler was not a very good

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Speaker 1: a very good criminal on any level. He failed miserably

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Speaker 1: at every attempt that he made. But you know, he

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Speaker 1: sealed his fate with this case. Because let's talk about

390
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Speaker 1: some of the elements. And I'm not an attorney, I

391
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Speaker 1: always say that, but just when you're looking at this

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Speaker 1: and you're putting the case together as an investigator to

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Speaker 1: present to the DA and the grand jury. First off,

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Speaker 1: he's entered in into a conspiracy with another fellow, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, they've entered into an agreement, and it's his idea.

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Speaker 1: So the individual that kind of conceptualized this idea, you know,

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Speaker 1: let's rub these two guys out. The onus is going

398
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Speaker 1: to fall on them, and let's just say, even if

399
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Speaker 1: he didn't execute them himself, it's his idea. He puts

400
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Speaker 1: the whole thing together, and then you've got this idea,

401
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Speaker 1: this this idea of luring that you mentioned. I love

402
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Speaker 1: that word, by the way, because luring is an action

403
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Speaker 1: word and it. It gives the impression that you're your

404
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 1: purpose in what you're doing. So they're luring these two

405
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Speaker 1: men to the location so that they can in effect

406
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Speaker 1: in their lives for whatever reason, you know, whether it's

407
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Speaker 1: monetary gain or whether it's some kind of beef that

408
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Speaker 1: they have with them after you know, after all all

409
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Speaker 1: of the all of this time, and you know, tabler

410
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Speaker 1: Uh has the thing about it going back to two

411
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Speaker 1: young strippers, is that he had actually gone about bragging

412
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Speaker 1: about about the their deaths he had and then later

413
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Speaker 1: he denies it. But you know, you you always say,

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Speaker 1: you know, explain something to me. Well, I've got a

415
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Speaker 1: question for you day about this. No, we were just

416
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Speaker 1: talking about this. I enjoy the peace of church. I

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Speaker 1: enjoy the solemnity of it. I enjoy the ritual of it.

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Speaker 1: I enjoy just the piece that it provides me and myself. Okay,

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Speaker 1: can I ask you something? Because I've been in prisons,

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Speaker 1: working cases, I've been in jails. There's never a quiet

421
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Speaker 1: moment in there. It's always clinking and clattering and the

422
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: sound of voices, you know, echoing over those concrete and

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Speaker 1: steel walls. Jesus seems to hang out in prison a lot,

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Speaker 1: doesn't he Because TABLR that and you made a really

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Speaker 1: good point. I'd love for you to share that with

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Speaker 1: our listeners about you know, kind of the motivations.

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Speaker 2: You know, being somebody who's a believer. I love Jesus

428
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Speaker 2: and anybody can be forgiven anybody, you know, it's amazing

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Speaker 2: the requirement of a believer. It's a mere belief in

430
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,959
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. And I look at

431
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 2: what happens in prisons, and it happens with sobriety. You know,

432
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 2: people go to prison and get sobriety and find Jesus.

433
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 2: Those are some easy things to find when you're in jail,

434
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 2: because I know, you can get drugs and out, you

435
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 2: can get anything in prison that you can get on

436
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 2: the outside. It's not easy, you know, and the consequences

437
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 2: are much higher. There are a lot of people who

438
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 2: find Jesus in prison. And just like being in church,

439
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 2: it's not difficult being a Christian in church, you know,

440
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 2: that's a pretty easy thing to do, right. It's when

441
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 2: you're outside the church, when you actually have the pressure

442
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 2: of the world coming in on you, that's when it's

443
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 2: difficult to stand up for who you are. And what

444
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 2: you believe.

445
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, what's what's the verse that says, you know,

446
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: of faith without works is dead. And so it's it's

447
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: easy to have that faith when you're kind of cloistered,

448
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: if you will, but being out, being out on the outside,

449
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 1: it's much more difficult. And so with Tabler, uh, you know,

450
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: he he made a rather grand profession about his faith

451
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 1: and you know, holding forth in that that he had

452
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: changed as a person. And and look, who am I

453
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: to doubt that? I'm no one to doubt that. You know,

454
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 1: you can't see someone's soul and what their relationship with

455
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: God is. However, there is a relationship that he really

456
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: and I find this fascinating about this case, there is

457
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: a relationship that he didn't make any friends within the

458
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: prison system over with, and it has nothing to do

459
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: with his relationship with Christ. But he he made some

460
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: He made nash On headlines back in two thousand and

461
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,959
Speaker 1: eight and twenty twelve relative to using letters and contraband

462
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: cell phones in the Texas State Prison there in Huntsville.

463
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: That really really impacted inmates throughout the Texas prison system.

464
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: Can you imagine to have that weight bearing down on

465
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: you and their ability to communicate with other people, because

466
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: he was apparently soliciting the state senator in a back

467
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: channel way in order to talk about prison conditions and

468
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: these sorts of things. And you know, he winds up

469
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: having the entire system do a course correction about how

470
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: you can contact people. And I'm sure he didn't make

471
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: any friends as a result of that within inside the joint.

472
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: What do you think, Dave, No, I'm with you.

473
00:29:55,080 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 2: That's the thing. I when the one thing he did.

474
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 2: We had a lot of problems when he first got

475
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 2: to prison. Remember this murder took place in two thousand

476
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 2: and four. When you're looking at two thousand and eight,

477
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 2: he's only been in there a couple of years. You know,

478
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 2: he hasn't had time to even adjust to his new

479
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 2: prison life. So yeah, there's gonna be a lot of complaints.

480
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 2: He's using letters and other things, is just breaking every

481
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 2: rule there is. But then after this comes to it

482
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 2: might mean something. Okay, after his conversion, after he becomes

483
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 2: a believer, all that stopped, all the craziness stopped for

484
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 2: him after he became a believer, and he put away

485
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 2: those things and he started focusing on a death row

486
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 2: ministry that he established while he was in there. And

487
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 2: so again, you know what, there are plenty of people

488
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 2: walking around in churches every day that are could be

489
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 2: easily convicted and sent to prison, and there are people

490
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 2: in prison who actually would be wonderful on the outside.

491
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 2: But there are consequences to our actions, both good and bad.

492
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 2: And in his case, there are consequences, you know. And

493
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 2: the consequence in this case is the death penalty. You

494
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 2: agree with it or not is another discussion. It's the

495
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 2: law of the land. And he was sentenced to death.

496
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 2: He was only convicted for two of the murders he's

497
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 2: suspected of doing. And even though he became a believer,

498
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 2: and this is I mentioned this ste a while ago, Joe,

499
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 2: But for those of us who are believers, if you

500
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 2: believe death on earth, to be absent of the body

501
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 2: is to be present with the Lord. And this is

502
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 2: something that has been very important to me this week.

503
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 2: But if that is the case, then I believe it is.

504
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 2: It's what the Bible says. Then when this man is

505
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 2: gone from this earth, when his life is taken, you know,

506
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 2: he surrendered it by his own actions. But as a Christian,

507
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 2: he goes to paradise. Yeah, regardless of what he did here,

508
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 2: and so why would people be fighting to keep you know,

509
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 2: don't don't let him, don't put him to death whatever,

510
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 2: you know, that's always weird. I always did the same

511
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 2: thing with Carla fey Tucker if you remember her, Oh,

512
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 2: Carla fey Tucker. And it was in Texas, and she

513
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: committed a heinous act, a heinous crime, and was sentenced

514
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 2: to and I remember the seven hundred Club broadcasting live

515
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 2: from the prison and begging and I'm like, yeah, y'all,

516
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 2: if you really love her, let her go.

517
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: I mean really, yeah, if this is what you believe

518
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: as far as the eternal reward, as they say, yeah,

519
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: you would think that there would be security in that

520
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: and that you would in fact let her go, and

521
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: that there is no risk here. Let's just say that. However, uh,

522
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: you know, we could go on and on forever about

523
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: how did they put him to death? It's an injection,

524
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: lethal injection. And we've actually had a couple and let

525
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: me see, we've had a couple of more. As you

526
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 1: remember we covered the nitrogen related death. Well, there's been

527
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: a couple of more. We've recently had another one here

528
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: in Alabama, and there are now more states that are

529
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: saying that they're going to be a adopting the nitrogen

530
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: nitrogen methodology and getting away from getting away from, uh,

531
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 1: you know, the the drug cocktail, as they say, because

532
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: you know, one of the one of the problems with

533
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: the drug cocktail is availability of the elements of that.

534
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: Key among them is like sodium pentathol and those sorts

535
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: of things that are utilized. So there some states are

536
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: migrating away if you use nitrogen, nitrogen is nitrogen is nitrogen,

537
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: So you're not going to have a trouble. I don't

538
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: think acquiring the nitrogen. It's going to be the delivery methodology, uh.

539
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: And that's something that will be explored down the road. However,

540
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: there is one more methodology that is now floating about

541
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: out there, and it is the methodology that Idaho and

542
00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: their Supreme Court is now thinking about and talk talking

543
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: about openly, and that is firing squad. And there is

544
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: a high profile individual who may may, if found guilty,

545
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: could find themselves on the receiving end of what comes

546
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: out of the muzzle of the thirty caliber weapon. As

547
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: you know, Dave, I, as many of our friends know,

548
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: I had a health issue over the last few weeks

549
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: and whatnot, and lost a tremendous amount of weight and

550
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:48,439
Speaker 1: muscle and everything else.

551
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 2: So you look great.

552
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, brother. I appreciate it.

553
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 2: And you sound fantastic. I'm so thankful that you have

554
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 2: recovered because there was a lot of worry. I'm so thankful.

555
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: Well, thank you. My voice is cleared up. Uh, you know,

556
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: a couple of surgeries and multiple intubations. That's uh, you know,

557
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: that's probably should pay. I thought I was going to

558
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 1: sound like Demi Moore the rest of my life. But anyway,

559
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: uh I With that said, I had been at physical

560
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: therapy trying to, you know, work on building myself back up,

561
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: and Nancy call and they asked me to be on

562
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: uh this episode this past week, just by phone. I

563
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 1: sat in the parking lot. Some of you folks, I'm

564
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: sure out there wonder well, where are we when we're

565
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: doing this? Well, it was called a it's called a

566
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: phoner and I couldn't get back in time to the

567
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 1: studio in order to shoot this thing. So I literally

568
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,280
Speaker 1: phoned in to Nancy's show. And one of the topics

569
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: for discussion for this particular show the show had to

570
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: do with Coburger and has to do with the latest

571
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 1: evidence that they have found, or that the defense says

572
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:04,479
Speaker 1: that relative to other suspects in this case, whether that's

573
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 1: true or not, I have no idea. I know that

574
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: some things have broken down along the way that I

575
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 1: would rather have otherwise seen not breakdown as far as

576
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,439
Speaker 1: evidentary considerations. But one of the individuals that she had

577
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 1: on this program with us was this gentleman, and it

578
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: was an interesting programming choice, to say the very least,

579
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: who is a leading expert on firing squad, Dave, the

580
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:35,399
Speaker 1: firing squad and the idea that the firing squad could

581
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: be introduced in time for future individuals that are found

582
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: guilty of capital homicide in the state of Idaho to

583
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 1: be subject to And of course the name that arises

584
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: right now is Brian Coberger, because he's I think that

585
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 1: right now, as of this recording, we're slated to start

586
00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: that trial in August of twenty twenty five, and they're talking,

587
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: I think they're talking, Dave, that the scene could go

588
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: to November. Just that's that's what the judge has blocked out.

589
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 1: So everybody, hold on to your hats, will be doing

590
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 1: a lot of coverage on that. But the idea was

591
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 1: and Nancy was trying to get an understanding of this.

592
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 1: I think from this fellow, what would that consist of

593
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: and what would it look like? And I was actually

594
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: keen to hear hear what he had to say, and

595
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 1: as it turned out, he really didn't know a lot.

596
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 1: I'm not disparaging this fellow, but I'm just saying they

597
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: have not gotten to the point where they've said, Okay,

598
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,879
Speaker 1: this is how it's going to work. You know, you're

599
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,720
Speaker 1: going to have five subjects, you know, just like Gary

600
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: Gilmore with you know, executioner song. You know the movie

601
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 1: that Tommy Lee was in, you know the Utah Execution.

602
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, when that movie when the Executioner's Song came out

603
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 2: and Tommy Lee Jones was the star as Gary Gilmore.

604
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: Christine Lottie playing a part in there as well. But

605
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: I remember that being a huge topic of discussion at

606
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: the time about having a firing squad, and I thought,

607
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 2: how odd it is that we would debate the methodology

608
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 2: of taking a life, you know, when the actual idea

609
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 2: of the death penalty, it seems like if you have

610
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 2: a death penalty, we're worried about harming the person's psyche.

611
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 2: We're worried about how they'll feel after the fact, Well,

612
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 2: they're dead. Why do we spend so much? Is it

613
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 2: really just antal exercise.

614
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: No, it's a constitutional issue. It goes back to and

615
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: you will hear capital punishment attorneys, And keep in mind

616
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: there are different types of capital punishment attorneys. You have

617
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: those that are out there that you have to be

618
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:58,919
Speaker 1: capital punishment qualified in order to sit in either chair,

619
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,879
Speaker 1: whether defense or execution, in order to participate in the trial.

620
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 1: It requires a certain a certain understanding of the law.

621
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: And then you have capital punishment attorneys who are not

622
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: really capital they're anti capital punishment attorneys that are out there,

623
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: you know, fighting against the laws and that sort of

624
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 1: thing relative to UH, you know, state executions. So but

625
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 1: when it comes down to it, what you're get, what

626
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: you're driving at, I think is a constitutional issue, and

627
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 1: that goes to cruel and unusual punishment, and so what

628
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,760
Speaker 1: they've tried to do for years and years, even going

629
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: all the way back to UH. You know, if you

630
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,959
Speaker 1: go back to the days of execution by hanging, which

631
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 1: was the preferred method for years and years here in

632
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 1: the US. UH, even if you if you've never read

633
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,720
Speaker 1: If if you guys have never read In Cold Blood

634
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 1: by Truman Capoti, uh, make it, do yourself a favor

635
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 1: and read that novel. And it's not really it's not

636
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 1: an novel. It is a true He called it a

637
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: true He didn't use a term true crime. But it

638
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 1: was written like a novel. But it was through his

639
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: eyes as he's observing both of these individuals that are

640
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:16,800
Speaker 1: moving through the prison, through the court system and prison

641
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: system all the way up to their execution. He talks

642
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: about they were subject to judicial hanging in the fifties

643
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: in Kansas, and he goes into great detail about it.

644
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,360
Speaker 1: And of course I talk about Pierpoints book that was

645
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: written the Queen's executioner. If you get a chance to

646
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: read that book, and it's a guy that for generations

647
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: his family had been the executioners to the Queen and

648
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: he handled most of the Nazi executions from Nuremberg, and

649
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: he goes into great detail about how he does all

650
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: the weight calculations and all that sort of stuff. Well,

651
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:55,720
Speaker 1: going back to, you know, to execution by hanging, people

652
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: found that to be cruel for years and years, you know,

653
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 1: and they want to get past it, and then they

654
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 1: introduced uh uh. You know, when they were able to

655
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: come up with this methodology of electrocution, they thought that

656
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: that was going to be you know, absent the element

657
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: of cruel and unusual. Well, you had people that would

658
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: take more than a couple of jolts in order to

659
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: to you know, to uh to execute them. You had

660
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: individuals that literally their bodies would catch on fire. You

661
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 1: had some they're even and some of the stuff is anecdotal,

662
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: but you had a few cases out there where people

663
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 1: quote unquote survived and uh and failed, you know, they

664
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 1: had to fail fail of the electrocution, and people found

665
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: it essentially unpalatable. Then you go the gas chamber, and

666
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: of course California for years and years was famous for

667
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: the gas chamber with synide gas and uh uh. When

668
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 1: you watch an individual inside of that capsule when that

669
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: gas is released, and it's it's hard to watch. But

670
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: you know what, Dave Murders, if you were there, are

671
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: hard to watch as well. I think that many people

672
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: want to clean it up and church it up and

673
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: make it as pleasant as possible. And now here we

674
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,879
Speaker 1: are we've come through this age of medical technology where

675
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 1: you can use injectibles to end somebody's life, and you

676
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 1: have individuals that struggle with breathing and all these sort

677
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: of things. And this is occurring in front of a

678
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 1: panel of witnesses as it's happening, and you know, you'll

679
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 1: have the news reports that will come out afterwards and

680
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: they're going to great granular detail about what happened. And

681
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 1: its interesting that now through all of this time we've

682
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: come back, at least with Idaho, we circled all the

683
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 1: way back to firing squad, which the military has used

684
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,399
Speaker 1: forever and ever. You know, they used hanging, but they've

685
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 1: used firing squad for a long time too.

686
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 2: If you're talking about a deterrent to future crime, okay,

687
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 2: we have this that yes, you have been sent in

688
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 2: to death for the crime that you have been convicted of.

689
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 2: It seems to me that doing it in public for

690
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 2: all to see, so that you're watching it as a

691
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 2: child and your mom and dad go see, that's what

692
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 2: happens to you. If you cannot function in society, they

693
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 2: take your life. And seeing it in public, watching somebody

694
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 2: catch on fire, convulse, or any number of other things.

695
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 2: I hate it for the family to watch their but

696
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 2: their family member took the life of somebody, and this

697
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 2: is punishment for the crime. I'm not in favor of

698
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 2: abuse of a corpse or anything like that, but hey man,

699
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 2: I'm not as concerned about the individual that did the

700
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 2: act that required them to be punished with death as

701
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 2: I am about the family of their victim. And it

702
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 2: boggles my mind. If you really wanted to put somebody

703
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 2: into a gas chamber and worry about how bad that is,

704
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,720
Speaker 2: you know what, we should put my English bulldog Hank

705
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 2: into a small cell with them for about a day.

706
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 2: You want to talk about gas, they will be begging

707
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 2: for lead.

708
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 1: Well, even in Hank's defense, it's not sign on gas.

709
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,359
Speaker 1: But yeah, I understand what you're saying, and it is.

710
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 1: It is ghastly. It's hard to watch and it's hard

711
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,760
Speaker 1: to understand. But you know, the thing about it is

712
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: is that this process that our system functions under now

713
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 1: don't come at me with the deterrence argument. That's one

714
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: of the reasons I'm less in favor of the death

715
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: penalty than Sale was a few years ago, because one

716
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 1: of the things that's always trotted out is is, well,

717
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 1: it's a deterrent, a deterrent for who the people that

718
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 1: are there to witness it, the family members of the victims,

719
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: are the family members of the individual that is being executed,

720
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: are the prison people or the news people or the

721
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: da Those people are not having to be deterred. It's

722
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 1: you know, because first off, the general public doesn't even

723
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 1: know what the interior of a death house looks like.

724
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,399
Speaker 1: They don't know what the process is like, they don't

725
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 1: understand it, they don't hear the last words. They're not

726
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: subject to all of that. So the whole idea of

727
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 1: a deterrent is kind of it's not really there any longer.

728
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: And so with you know, you leave that point behind

729
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 1: and you begin to think about methodology. And one of

730
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 1: the things that came up in this discussion that we

731
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,280
Speaker 1: had on Nancy Show the other day, and she raised

732
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,959
Speaker 1: this excellent point, I don't know where this report came from.

733
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 1: Forgive me, I guess I didn't do my research as effectively,

734
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 1: but we can still talk about it. She's saying that

735
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: it is being hinted at that this is going to

736
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 1: be potentially an automated event. Well her, you know, and

737
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 1: in Nancy's way that she does it, she's like, oh,

738
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 1: or what are we talking about robots here, and no,

739
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: you don't have to have robots, but you have you have.

740
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 1: You know, the military has had automated west weapons systems

741
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 1: forever and ever in a day, okay, But at the

742
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: close of it all, somebody, somebody has to press a

743
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: button or flip a switch. You know. It's just like

744
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,760
Speaker 1: to start the IV drop or to push the drugs.

745
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 1: Somebody has to do that. Somebody has to flip the

746
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 1: switch on some kind of automated weapon system, or somebody

747
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:25,839
Speaker 1: has to stand behind that wall with a rifle and

748
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 1: looking through that gun port and have it zeroed in

749
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 1: center mass on the victim's chest that's strapped probably to

750
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 1: a chair with sandbags behind them, and they have to

751
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 1: pull the trigger when that order is given. And it's

752
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: a firing squad. I mean, it is a firing squad,

753
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,840
Speaker 1: you know, just like you would see in Stanley Kubrick's movie,

754
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: which is one of the one of his greatest movies

755
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: as far as I'm concerned, Passive Glory, and it ends

756
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: with a firing squad scene that's probably one of the

757
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 1: most realistic that I've ever seen, where three guys or

758
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 1: are are executed in order to teach a lesson to

759
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: everybody else. They weren't guilty for anything. It happened during

760
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 1: World War One. Uh the movie set in wre War

761
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 1: one rather and you know, you get you get a

762
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:21,240
Speaker 1: sense of what occurred. And I've I've seen reels of executions,

763
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 1: a variety of different types. I've seen everything from beheading

764
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: to hangings to I've seen mass executions in Iran. I've

765
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 1: seen beheadings out of Saudi Arabia, you name it, I've

766
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 1: seen it. None of it's Dave is pretty. Death is

767
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 1: never pretty. I don't know what the outcome is going

768
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: to be for Coburger. Uh, you know, for all I know,

769
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 1: you know, he might walk. He hasn't been found guilty

770
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 1: of anything yet. He's still accused. He's still innocent. But

771
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 1: the fact that this conversation is to taking place gives

772
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: us an indication as to where we are as a society,

773
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 1: the road that lay before us, and some decisions, very

774
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 1: hard decisions, they're going to have to be made. The

775
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 1: world is an ever changing place, but the one thing

776
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:19,720
Speaker 1: that is always there is the horror of death and loss.

777
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,760
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Bodybacks