1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 2: It's been two weeks since they've heard. 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: Our scratchy voices. 4 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I sound pretty good. 5 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: You do sound pretty good. Yeah, I probably sound most 6 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: like myself. But I have been sick. 7 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, you also got a haircut. Not that that matters. 8 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: No, it's an audio podcast. But no. We took last 9 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: week off because I was taking my children to a 10 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: water park. But also I got extremely sick, and so 11 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,599 Speaker 1: I couldn't have recorded anyway. I lost my voice. I 12 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 1: was like standing at the water park very quietly saying 13 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: don't go in there. 14 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 2: So really it was in the listener's best interests, was 15 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 2: it ever, Yeah, so that they didn't have to hear 16 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 2: that voice. But we're back now, and boy, we have 17 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 2: some stuff to talk about. 18 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: I'm convincing. Hello, and welcome to the Money Stuff Podcast. 19 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: You're a weekly podcast wherever you talk about stuff related 20 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: to money. I'm Matt Levine and I write the Money 21 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: Stuff column for Bloomberg Opinion. 22 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 2: And I'm Katie Greifeld, a reporter for Bloomberg News and 23 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 2: an anchor for Bloomberg Television. 24 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 1: What is all this stuff we have to talk about today? Katie? 25 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 2: Okay, We're coming in hot because the first ever private 26 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 2: crediting TF has finally launched. We're going to talk about 27 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 2: Bill Ackman's dreams of being a baby Berkshire, and then 28 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 2: we're going to talk about info Wars and an interesting 29 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 2: bid to try and buy it. 30 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: Private CREDITYTF, the. 31 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 2: Sp D r SSGA, Apollo IG Private Credit ETF. It 32 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 2: launched on Thursday. Yes, and I have to say, I'm 33 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 2: kind of shocked that this launched. 34 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: You didn't he do it? And we've talked about this 35 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: like more than fifteen times on the show. 36 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, And and a lot of people in the industry 37 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 2: too are shocked that it launched. Interesting, it feels like that. 38 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: I feel like, is this partly like when they filed 39 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: for it, it was like there are rules and now 40 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: there are no rules. Ors not related to that at all. 41 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 2: So I was thinking about that. You know, we are 42 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 2: in a brave new world. We have a new SEC. 43 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 2: This was filed in September twenty twenty four. It's launching 44 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 2: February twenty seventh, twenty twenty five. I mean they didn't 45 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,959 Speaker 2: make arguments. I don't think that Apollo and State Street 46 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 2: didn't put any meaningful thought into. 47 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: This, but I have no problem, Like I'm not surprised 48 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: that it launched. I tell me why, because like you 49 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: could do anything, Man, it's an ETF, Like why not? 50 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 2: Like, what's what if this launched in twenty twenty four? 51 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 2: Would you have been surprised? 52 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: No? I asked about like now that we have no 53 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 1: rules as that would make it, But like I would 54 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: have thought it was fine in twenty twenty four, which 55 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: is probably why they filed it. 56 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 2: So there's a lot of question marks about and we've 57 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 2: talked about this too, like how you put securities as 58 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 2: a liquid as private credit into a very public wrapper, 59 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 2: what withdrawals look like, and whether you could run into 60 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 2: some problems there. There's rules that more than fifteen percent 61 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 2: of an open ended fund can't be in a liquid securities. 62 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 2: Private credit oly is considered in a liquid security. But 63 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 2: the CTF is going to invest ten to thirty five 64 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 2: percent of its holdings in private credit. And the argument 65 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: that State Street and Apollo made was basically that you know, 66 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 2: Apollo is going to provide that liquidity. They have this 67 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 2: trading desk, They're going to both supply the private credit 68 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 2: assets for this fund, and they're also going to buy 69 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 2: them back. They're contractually obligated to buy them back. So 70 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 2: it seems like the SEC agreed with that argument because 71 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 2: this thing is trading. 72 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: I think that argument is basically correct. Right. There's a 73 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: range of stuff that is quote private credit, right, and 74 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: like one thing that is private credit is business development companies, 75 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: which are you know, often like middle market direct lending 76 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: companies that are private credit companies in a public wrapper, right, 77 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: like they provide non bank privately negotiated loans to companies, 78 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: but like they're provided out of a public buol of capital. 79 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: So im I understanding is there's some ability to put 80 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: like BBC shares into this thing, which is liquid private credit, 81 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: no problem. Some large percentage of what they're going to 82 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: do is like Apollo private credit loans that like Apollo 83 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: will make a market in and they will be able 84 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: to trade with apollow at that market. And yeah, it's 85 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: like solves the problem, right, because like the problem is, 86 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: you know, you have the possibility of the fund expanding 87 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: and contracting each day because like if more public buyers 88 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: want to buy, then it'll have to expend. And if 89 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: you have a very i liquid, hard to source, hard 90 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,799 Speaker 1: to sell asset, like we've talked about like private companies 91 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 1: where it's like, you know, you can only get so 92 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 1: many SpaceX shares. If you have that, it's hard to 93 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: expand and contract. But like if you have Apollo, which 94 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: has a massive supply of private credit and like you know, 95 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 1: its own balance sheet and its ability to buy some back, 96 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: then like Apollo can be the like accordion for the 97 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 1: expanding and contracting of the ETF. And it seems fun. 98 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: What's wrong with that? 99 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 2: Well, let me read you something from morning Star analyst 100 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 2: Brian Moriarity, and I will note that morning Star tends 101 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 2: not to like things that are a little too crazy, 102 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 2: like they hate what's going on. 103 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 1: I love things that are a little too crazy. That's 104 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: the problem right here. 105 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh yeah, they are very spiritually opposed to 106 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 2: you know, funny business. But this is what moriogy business. 107 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: Is, My whole business. 108 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 2: Moriarity, I had to say, Apollo's liquidity facility is subject 109 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 2: to a daily limit, and this daily limit remains undefined. 110 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 2: It's possible the fund could have to meet way more 111 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,359 Speaker 2: redemptions in a day than the limit. That could force 112 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 2: State Street to sell more liquid public securities first, potentially 113 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 2: leaving the ETF with more liquid private credit instruments as 114 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 2: a percentage of assets, and increasing the risks of a 115 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 2: liquidity crunch. Okay, wait, I like this line. When this happens, 116 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 2: the portfolio often begins to manage the advisor rather than 117 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 2: the other way around. 118 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 1: Okay, that's a cool line. I agree with that. I 119 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: think it's like when they start with like zero dollars 120 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: of assets, like it's not irrelevant consideration, right, Like, this 121 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: is clearly like they're gonna see where it goes. Apollo's 122 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: trading desk has some risk limit, and like that risk 123 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: limit is more than adequate to deal with redemptions on 124 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: the first day when it will clearly be net creating, right, Like, 125 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: they're not gonna have net redemptions for. 126 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 2: Two weeks, right, I suppose. 127 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: Like if they had net redemptions in the next two weeks, 128 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 1: they would be very small because it's all fun. But right, 129 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: if this becomes a twenty billion dollar ETF, then there 130 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 1: will be material risks of Apollo not being able to 131 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: absorb all of the private credit if it goes from 132 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: twenty billion to zero overnight. Yeah, my assumption is that 133 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: everyone's like, Wow, that'll be a nice problem to have 134 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: when we come to it, right, Yeah, but no, I 135 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: think it like a modest size. It's like, yeah, this 136 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: is a fun proof of concept for Apollo, and they 137 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: would trade the paper. They also get to make the 138 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: price in a not competitive environment, right, like in a 139 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: world where Apollo thinks we're doing rate private credit loans 140 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: and all of our loans are fantastic and like retail 141 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: shareholders of the ETF are pulling out, then for Apollo 142 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: to be like the Marcus sixty cents on the dollar, 143 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: will buy as much as you want, it seems fine 144 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: for them. I don't know. 145 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there's skepticism that I've seen the fact that okay, 146 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 2: Apollo is supplying the private credit and it's also contractually 147 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 2: obligated to buy it back. I did see some people 148 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: comparing this to like the fox guarding the Henhouse. 149 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: One thing that I think, Yeah, I think they're creating 150 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: private credit to sell to the public and they're trying 151 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: to make money on it, like of course, well, also, 152 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: where do you think they're. 153 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 2: Doing In the filing, it also says to sort of 154 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 2: I don't know, ease that worry. The ability to sell 155 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 2: the instruments to Apollo is not exclusive. So if State 156 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 2: Street the right find another bid, Yeah, they found a 157 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 2: better bid somewhere else, they wouldn't have to necessarily sell. 158 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: To a sure great Yeah No, I mean look, I 159 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: mean like when we've talked about not only the content 160 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: of the ECF, right, Like, Apollo is trying to build 161 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: up a market for private credit, right, and I think 162 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: they'd be thrilled to live in a world where once 163 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: State Street wants to sell it's private credit, it can 164 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: get bids from twenty anonymous firms on an electronic platform, right, 165 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: Like that's that's a good world for a private credit 166 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: originator to live in. But yeah, like they think they 167 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: are smart evaluators of private credit and this is a 168 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: like retail place into which to put it, Like yeah, yeah, 169 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: they're hoping to make money. The thing I say is 170 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: like on this liquidity worry, The thing I always write 171 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: about private credit is that it's a really good funding 172 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: model for loans. Right, Like you are Apollo. You raise 173 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 1: money from like classically insurance companies are like you know, 174 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: in policy case, they own ans, they are an insurance company. Right, 175 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: You raise money from insurance companies and you have this 176 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:47,839 Speaker 1: very like long term locked up capital and you use 177 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: it to make long term, somewhat risky loans that don't trade, right, 178 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: And that's a good match of liabilities and assets, right, 179 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: Like you are raising long term money to make long 180 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: term loans, it's a better match of liability and assets 181 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: them like classic bank lending, where the banks raise overnight 182 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: money to make thirty year loans. The private credit model 183 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 1: has always struck me as being unusually not runnable, right, 184 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: Like you can't usually, I mean you sort of can. 185 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: You don't really like redeem your life insurance policy, right, So, 186 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: like the theene has like really long term money and 187 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: if like credit gets worse, like no one is clamoring 188 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: to get their money back, so Athene can kind of 189 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: ride that out. The theene is Apollo is like captive, 190 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: but once you do it in a like instant liquidity 191 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: retail vehicle, like that changes a little bit, right, And 192 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: it's like for the retail vehicle, the liquidity is like whatever, 193 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: it's rodded by Apollo. But for Apollo, it's like you've 194 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: shifted your funding model so that it went from being 195 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: like arguably one hundred percent of your funding is from 196 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: insurance company clients, where like it's like permanent funding to 197 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: a small but you hope growing percentage of your funding 198 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: comes from retail investors who can take their money out 199 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: at any time. I think gets like a little bit 200 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: more fragile. It's like, you know, I wouldn't worry so 201 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 1: much about the fund being able to get its money 202 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 1: back out of Apollo. I worry a little bit like Apollo, 203 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: like making its funding model a little bit worse. But 204 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: you can understand why they think it's worth the risk 205 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: because one again, they're starting from nothing, so it's like 206 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: day one, that risk is very small. Yeah, and then 207 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: too if it gets really big, then it's a nice 208 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: problem to have. 209 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 2: I cannot wait to see how this is received. I 210 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 2: mean day one is Thursday. I mean I can't wait 211 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 2: to see what will look like on Monday, what it'll 212 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 2: look like in two weeks, two months, et cetera, what 213 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 2: the reception will be like. 214 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: It's not that private credity. Yeah, very is like this 215 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: hot asset class and subs. But it's also it's like, yeah, 216 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: you get like, you know, slightly better than Bonder. Yeah. 217 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: It's not like space X, right, It's not like a 218 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: lottery ticket. Right, It's like, yeah, it's like a slightly 219 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: higher fixed think of an investment. 220 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 2: That's true, but still, I mean, it feels like there's 221 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 2: been so much anticipation for this, certainly. I mean you 222 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 2: think about the big splash that this filing made at 223 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 2: the time. Maybe that was just a nice podcast as 224 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 2: discussed on the Money Stuff podcast, I was not. 225 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: Like hearing on the subway. People have been like, oh 226 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: my gosh, did you see there's a private credit ETF coming. 227 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 2: Well, this will be a good reality check to see 228 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 2: whether this sort of lives up to the hype, at 229 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 2: least in the ETF world. It's a big moment both 230 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 2: for the ETF world but also for just the world 231 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 2: of private assets. 232 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,079 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean I do think and we've talked 233 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: about this too. Like the idea that private credit won't 234 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: trade on an electronic platform like m it was just 235 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: like a weird like blip in time, Like there's no 236 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: reason for that. Like in five years altho it would 237 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: be like big electronic trading platforms for private credit loands 238 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: like sure are why not? It's fine? 239 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. Also, if we stretch our imaginations, and this is 240 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 2: something that I haven't really had time to do yet, 241 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 2: But the fact that this is a partnership between you know, 242 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:58,199 Speaker 2: an ETF firm established ETF firm State Street with Apollo, 243 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,439 Speaker 2: which is acting as look provider. You could dream of 244 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 2: how that model evolves. Some people, including morning Star, have 245 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 2: pointed to we'll probably see more of these liquidity partnerships 246 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 2: in the future. 247 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, although like that is also possibly transitional, right, And 248 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: like in a world where like there is easy liquid 249 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: trading of private credit, if you're an ETF provider and 250 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,199 Speaker 1: you're looking to start at private credit ETF, you'll pregner 251 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 1: with like Chain Street or something. It's just like a 252 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:29,959 Speaker 1: liquidity provider, not an originator, right, but like for now 253 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: the originators are they are the liquidity providers, and right 254 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: every other originator is probably going to get into having 255 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: an ETF. 256 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. Also, the fee seventy basis points is that high. 257 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 2: I mean, it's not low, but considering the I don't 258 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 2: know what the cost for a retail investor, like an 259 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 2: average individual investor to get access to private credit now 260 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 2: without an ETF would cost. I will say there's some 261 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 2: like leverage single stock ETFs that cost more than one percent. 262 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 2: So this is pretty I mean was for credib for 263 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 2: a brand new product, a brand new category, actively managed 264 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 2: obviously some many basis points. Is really cheap all things considered. 265 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:14,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is not their business, you know, Yeah, I 266 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: think got a lot going on. This is a fascinating 267 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: proof of concept for like, you know, Apollo is pushed 268 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: to like be your one stop retirement provider, right yeah, 269 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: and you know you don't need to make a lot 270 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: of money on this one product in the. 271 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 2: First week, but maybe they will. Okay, Bill Ackman, friend 272 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 2: of the show, Bill Ackman making some interesting moves, trying 273 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 2: to reinvent himself sort of sort. 274 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: Of only sort of. It's so hard to understand what 275 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: a hedgehund is. Like when I was like growing up 276 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: in finance, like that dge fund managers where guys like 277 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: Bill Aackman who like ran kind of concentrated equity ish 278 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: activist ish you know, like got their got in the news, 279 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: like got went on TV. And now like a hedge 280 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: fund is more back to the classical hedged notion where 281 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: it's like these much more you know, multi strategy, multi 282 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: manager factor neutrol. Yeah, kind of quantity funds. But like 283 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: back when like the kings of the hedgehund world were 284 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: like the Bill Ackmans. It was like a lot of 285 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: them kind of positioned themselves as success was to Warren Buffett, 286 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: it was a hedgehund manager for a little while. Right, 287 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: It's like you build an investment partnership where you make 288 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: concentrated long term bets on stocks you really like, and 289 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: you're smart and have a public persona and go on 290 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: TV and that's your business. And like you're self consciously 291 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: a like Graham and Dot value investor, and like you're 292 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: sort of your your investing framework is kind of similar 293 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: to Warren Buffett's. I think that one thing that Bill 294 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: Ackman in particular has learned is that in addition to 295 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: being good at Graham and Dodd and being folksy, Warren 296 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: Buffett has a structural advantage. Like he runs a company 297 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: and that's more useful to him than running a hedge fund. 298 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: And in particular, it seemed to me that Bill Lackman 299 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: really wants to have a thing that is his investment 300 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: vehicle that trades at a premium and that people are 301 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: like willing to pay up to have money managed by 302 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: Bill Ackman. And it has been funny over the last 303 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: year or two watching him like fail to achieve that 304 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: with like his clothes end fund Ipo. 305 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 2: Also heavily discussed on this pot I have discussed. 306 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: On this podcast. And now what he wants to do, 307 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: He's like, start over. We're gonna do Warren Buffet, We're 308 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: gonna do Berkshire Hathway. We're going to do is we're 309 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: going to buy a small, weird, random company and turn 310 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: it into a gigantic investment vehicle for like Bill Ackman 311 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: making some public stock investments, making some one hundred percent 312 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: acquisitions of companies, just being Warren Buffett, just being an 313 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: acchoir and an investor and a public figure. And I say, like, 314 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: buy some random company. But it's not a random company. 315 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: It's like Howard Hughes, which is a company that he 316 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: has a long history of. It's like spun out of Dtart, 317 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: which is one of his most successful investments. He was 318 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: the chairman of the company for a while, and Pershing 319 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: Square currently owns like thirty something percent of it. And 320 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: what he wants to do now is one buy a 321 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: little more, partly to get his take up and partly 322 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: to just inject money into the company. And then too 323 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: like become the head of the company and let the 324 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: people who are currently running it's real estate business, be 325 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: like one little segment of the company, and then let 326 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: him and his investing team make investments for the company, 327 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: make acquisitions for the company so that it can become 328 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: a borkshare, so that in twenty years you'll think of 329 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: Howard Hughes as a you know, insurance and tech and 330 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: whatever company, and it's real estate will be an interesting 331 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: historical side note. Well, that's also funny that, like it's 332 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: called Howard Hughes like a guy's name and it's not 333 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: real lacking. Yeah, that's the change in there. 334 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 2: I was googling about it, and I kept getting the 335 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 2: guy himself. It's not what I wanted. Yeah, it's a 336 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 2: three point nine billion dollar arche cap company. It's heavily 337 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 2: involved in real estate, including the seaport for our Manhattan 338 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 2: natives here. You know what's funny is that they reported 339 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 2: earnings today, which is Thursday when we're recording this, and 340 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 2: I was reading through the earnings call and they did 341 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 2: make a note that the Special Committee of our Border 342 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 2: Directors is responsible for evaluating Pershing Square's most recent scheduled 343 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 2: thirteen dfiling and the associated proposed transactions. Thus they will 344 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 2: not answer any. 345 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: Questions do I love it? 346 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 2: Well, they got a question about it, obviously it did 347 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 2: take a few questions to get there. But John Kim 348 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 2: from BMO Capital Markets was the brave, brave analyst who 349 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 2: spoke up and said, I was wondering if you could 350 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 2: provide any sense at all as far as timing of 351 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 2: when there will be an update, and I just wanted 352 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 2: to confirm the transaction needs BORD approval and not shareholder 353 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 2: approval to move forward. Question Mark CEO David Riley said 354 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 2: that the Pershing Square thirteen DEEN filing is between the 355 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 2: Special Committe in Pershing Square, and I'm going to leave 356 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 2: any comments in timing or otherwise for them to opine on. So, yeah, 357 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 2: scant detail. 358 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: Actually, in my prior life, knowing whether that transaction buying 359 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: like tennis percent of the company when you're already a 360 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: thirty percent holder, Knowing whether that transaction required shareholder river 361 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 1: was like a surprisingly large part of my prior life. 362 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: But I've never forgotten. Let someone else figure that out. 363 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 2: God, that would have been so good to bring to 364 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 2: this pod. 365 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: No, it's shockingly boring. 366 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 2: That's what we aim for here at the Money Stuff Podcast. 367 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 2: Shockingly boring. I have some questions. One, so it's a 368 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 2: three point nine billion dollar company. It's a good company, 369 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,199 Speaker 2: he has a long history with it. Why not just 370 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 2: take Pershing Square public? 371 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: Wasn't no, No, because because you have to have a 372 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: regular company. Okay, it's the real estate companies. 373 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 2: It's like, take your hedge fund public and be this. 374 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: Is what this is what he tried. He tried, I 375 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 1: mean not the hedge fund, but he tried to take 376 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: a close and fund public. Yeah, but it turns out 377 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: that if you just have closed unfund, it won't trade 378 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: at a premium, and then like all of the magic 379 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: goes away. 380 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,120 Speaker 2: I thought that the closed end fund was launching as 381 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 2: a step in taking Pershing Square itself public. 382 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, But taking Pushing Square itself public is is not 383 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: quite the same thing, because when you take a hedge 384 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:20,719 Speaker 1: fund company public, you're capitalizing a fee stream. Yeah, And 385 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: he doesn't want to sell a fee stream. He wants 386 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: to sell a pot of investments at a premium. Right. 387 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: It's now breaking my brand a little bit to think 388 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: about taking a hedgehund company public and then in that 389 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 1: hedge fund company buying assets. But it just seems it 390 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: seems like a weird sort of cannibalism or something. 391 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 2: Okay, not doesn't like it. 392 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: I don't know why. But to me the question is like, Okay, 393 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: you like Howard Hughes, but like there's three thousand companies 394 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: out there, just by any one of them doesn't matter. 395 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: Like we talked about like Brad Jacobs and QX out buying, 396 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: like just like the most random software company to like, yeah, 397 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: build his logistics upire out of it. It doesn't matter. 398 00:19:57,920 --> 00:19:59,719 Speaker 1: They just get rid of the software company and then 399 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: you have your you know, clean sheld to do logistics 400 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: that far. I wrote once about GameStop in addition to 401 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: being game Stop, it's like controlled by Ryan Cohen's the CEO, 402 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: and like at some point they put an announcement being 403 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 1: like he's going to be able to make equity investments 404 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,199 Speaker 1: with the company Treasure. It's like you can build Berkshire 405 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 1: Hathaway out of game Stop, and you should because it 406 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 1: will trade it at premium and people will love it. Right, 407 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: But it's like that Ryan Cohen already has that one. 408 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: But yeah, Bill Ackman could buy you know, all sorts 409 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: of weird companies and turn them into Berkshire Hathaway. 410 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you did write in your column that 411 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 2: someone suggested he buy Earl. Yeah, yeah, that would have 412 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 2: been pretty good. I would love to add I mean 413 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 2: I know that I can't that this is the matter 414 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 2: of the Special Committee of the Board of Directors, but 415 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 2: I would love to know how Howard Hughes feels about this. 416 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: Right, it's weird because you're like here, you are trying 417 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: to run your business. 418 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, trying to do your earning. 419 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: School, like, no, we want to build yeah, totally unrelated 420 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,360 Speaker 1: hedge fund. Like if you're like running the textile mill 421 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: that is Berkshire Hathaway and like Warren Buffett comes in 422 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: and says, I'm going to build a business empire and 423 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: like get rid of the textiles. I don't know. It's 424 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: like a mixed bag. Yeah, it's like probably good for shareholders, 425 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 1: but it's kind of weird. Yeah. 426 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 2: I wonder if if this goes through, whether or not 427 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 2: Bill Ackman would tweet us. But no, you thinkin maybe 428 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 2: he'd tweets more. 429 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, more because you get like, like the thing 430 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: you're aiming to do interested in. Yes, the thing you're 431 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: aiming to do is like make investments and like be 432 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: a creative to the value both of your investments and 433 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: of like your vehicle. Howard huesed by, like people would 434 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: be like ooh, you know, like yeah, you like Warren 435 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: Buffett had the ability for a long time. It's like 436 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:44,239 Speaker 1: go to a company and be like, I will put 437 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: a billion dollars into your company at like a thirty 438 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: percent discount to your stock price, and the stock would double, 439 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,199 Speaker 1: and so it's like worth it to the company. And 440 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 1: like Warren Buffett would make a lot of money off 441 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: of it, right, Like he had like the self fulfilling 442 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: prophecy ability right where he could invest money in a 443 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: company and just that investment would make the company go up, 444 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: and so he could like monetize that and like Blackman 445 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 1: wants that too. And the way Blackman gets it is 446 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: like one by like making good investments so that people 447 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: like his track record, but then two by tweeting a lot. 448 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 2: Right, well, let me let me refrace. Then I wonder 449 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 2: if peopill tweet about different things. I don't know. 450 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: I don't know either. I think that he thinks that 451 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: this is working. 452 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 2: Maybe it is. I will say, it's interesting to me 453 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 2: reading this column and then preparing for this podcast. You know, 454 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 2: I grew up just with Warren Buffett as Warren Buffett, 455 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 2: and I haven't really thought deeply about his model before. 456 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 2: How he did just buy a random company and start 457 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 2: doing this. 458 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like it's it's similar, like he was running 459 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: a hedge fund and like they made an investment in 460 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 1: this textile company and he got mad at them. I 461 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: forget why he got mad at them. Yeah, they didn't pay. 462 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: There's some like he had some fight with him and 463 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: he's like, I'm just gonna buy some stock, and they 464 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 1: bought enough stock that he controlled the company. Yeah, and 465 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 1: then he's like, well, all right, I'm gonna take the 466 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: treasury of this company and start making investments with him. 467 00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: And then like he became brick Sure Athora. 468 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if I find it surprising or 469 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 2: not that there haven't been more high profile successful Berkshire 470 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 2: Hathaway types. I mean, we just talked about Brad Jacobs, 471 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 2: for example, who's pretty well known, and I don't know, 472 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 2: maybe Blackman will be the next Berkshire Hathaways. 473 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say that, like Warren Buffett was kind 474 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: of early runing hedge fund and in the nineties and 475 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 1: certainly the two thousands and tens, and twenty twenties, if 476 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: you were like good at making investment decisions, the idea 477 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: that you would like take over a public company and 478 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: invest that treasury and pay yourself, you know, one hundred 479 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year is Buffett sort of nominally gets 480 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: paid at Berkshire and like get all of your returns 481 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: from the increase in the fundamental value of the company. 482 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: Like people found a better model. Yeah, you can run 483 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: hedge fund you charge two and twenty and like you 484 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,959 Speaker 1: can you know, make more exotic investments and you know, 485 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: have maybe a better ties treatment and like get paid 486 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of dollars a year. So the idea 487 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: of people like wanting to follow exactly the Buffet path, 488 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: like that kind of attenuated, and like why does ackman 489 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: want to do it? Like some of it is just 490 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: like he's made enough money and it's like sort of 491 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: like a legacy slash, you know, experimentation kind of. 492 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know the man obviously not well, it 493 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 2: just feels like he wants to be in control of 494 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 2: some publicly traded entity. I don't know. 495 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 1: I think that's right. I think that like he's had 496 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: a good run as being a guy who is mainly 497 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: a manager of private hedsphones and there's made a lot 498 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: of money doing it, and now it's like this is 499 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: somehow more of a satisfying public facing thing. Yeah. 500 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 2: I mean it's hard to understand not being incentivized necessarily 501 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 2: by money. 502 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 1: But I suppose when you have you get to appoint man. Yeah, 503 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm sure the money. 504 00:24:43,640 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 2: In this, like he'll be fine. Yeah, all right, Matt, 505 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 2: we decided on this topic, Yeah, pretty much. So I'm 506 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,880 Speaker 2: a little bit unprepared, but I'm so excited to hear 507 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 2: you tell me about it. 508 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 1: Info Wars. We tied once about info Wars before we did, 509 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: when the Onion was going to buy them, or rather 510 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: they wanted to Global Tetra Heton was going to buy them. 511 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 1: So Global Tetra Heaton, which is like the trade name 512 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: of the Onion, was going to buy info Wars out 513 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: of bankruptcy. It's like Alex Jones, the Info Wars guy, 514 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 1: is in bankruptcy because he has spread conspiracy theories and 515 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: hoaxes about the Sandy Hook Elementary School of massacre, and 516 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: the families of the victims suit him and got like 517 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: a billion dollars of judgments and so now he's in 518 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 1: bankruptcy because he doesn't have a billion dollars and his 519 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: main asset is info Wars has like you know, YouTube platform, 520 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 1: and the bankruptcy court has been trying to sell that 521 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: to raise money to give to these essentially Santay Hook 522 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: victim families. And we talked about it because the Onion 523 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 1: had bid to buy it, and the idea is that 524 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,479 Speaker 1: the Onion would like a little bit of cash for it, 525 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: but mostly they would run it on behalf of the 526 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 1: Sandiog families essentially both economically and also like to not 527 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: promote right wing conspiracy theories but to instead promote gun control. Yeah, 528 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,959 Speaker 1: so that fell through for what I thought were kind 529 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: of technical administrative reasons, but like it seems to have 530 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 1: really fallen through. When we talked about it, I was like, yeah, 531 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: the Onion can just come back and bid again, but 532 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 1: didn't seem to work out that way. So now like 533 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: the only bidders are Alex Jones himself in a fake mustache, 534 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, there's a thing called Fuak that's basically 535 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 1: like some backer of Alex Jones will give him money 536 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: to buy his company back. And this thing called wow 537 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: dot Ai that's like a Puerto Rican artificial intelligence. It 538 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: was like some sort of thing, you know. But its 539 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 1: bid is some cash and a meme coin. It has 540 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: launched a meme coin called wars that it wants to 541 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 1: use to pay for in four warst and the idea 542 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 1: is that it has like this mean coin all meme coins. 543 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,400 Speaker 1: It's like they issue like ten percent of the meme 544 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: coin and they're like, we've reserved fifty percent for some 545 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 1: weird purpose. So this one, they preserve fifty one percent 546 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: for the bankruptcy state. They're going to give it to 547 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: the bankruptcy estate. It's going to be part of their bid. Yeah, 548 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: so like the credit Basically, Sandy Hook families will end 549 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: up owning this meme coin and they would buy the side, 550 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: and then the holders of the mean coin could vote 551 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: on what they would do with the side with I 552 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: guess the choices be like let Alex Jones run it, 553 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: or like let the onion run it. Yeah, And that's 554 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: their bid and that's the plan. 555 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 2: So you seem to write that this is pretty clever. 556 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: You got to read the whole sentence. Who says you 557 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 1: know how much I hate to say this because I 558 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: hate meme couns. Yeah, And the thing that is happening 559 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: here at its core is like someone thought, hey, it 560 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: would be good to like pre sell stock in in forest, 561 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: Like would we get to try to buy it for 562 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: worse and like raise the money to do it from 563 00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 1: the public, and like that would give us the money 564 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: to do it, and then the public can have a 565 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: say and how we run info Wars. But you can't 566 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: do that because like there are securities laws. But now 567 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: there are no securities laws as long as you call 568 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: it a token. And so what they have done here 569 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,360 Speaker 1: is they've pre sold stock in like their new info 570 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 1: Wars company and call it a meme coin. And it 571 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: has some like very clever properties. Right, you can create 572 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: a dynamic where people are going to bid up the 573 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: price because some people want it to be run one way, 574 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: people wanted to run another way, and so there's some 575 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 1: auction dynamic where people will pay more to get the 576 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: outcome they want. And you've sold like a relatively small 577 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: number of the tokens, and you've reserved a large number 578 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: of the tokens, so you can say, oh, the fully 579 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: diluted value of this thing is very large because like 580 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: the small number of tokens trade trade it like a 581 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: relatively high price, and so it's you know, it's not 582 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: like trump coin, but you know, I look this morning 583 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: and like the fully diluted value is like twenty three 584 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: million dollars, which is like implies eleven million dollars for 585 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: the Sandy Hook victims, which is more than they'd get 586 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: from wuck. It's not necessarily a real value, right, because 587 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: it's like it's a thinly traded meme coin there, Like 588 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: the main thing about meme coins is like their value 589 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: disappears over night. Let's still so like it creates like 590 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: a lot of paper value, and it creates it in 591 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: a somewhat clever way, and it just gets around the 592 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: securities laws because everyone's decided securities laws don't apply to 593 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: crypto anymore. Yeah, so it's clever, but not in a 594 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: way that like I like. 595 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like got to give it to them, But 596 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 2: do you have to you do kind of kind of 597 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 2: have to give it to them? A question that I 598 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 2: have a statement, So explain this to me one more time. 599 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 2: So the bid is for three point five million dollars 600 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 2: in cash plus fifty one percent of the total maximum 601 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 2: supply of the War's meme coin, So info Wars would 602 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 2: control the meme coin, and then the remaining the mean 603 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 2: crain is. 604 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: Like I think like ten percent of the meme clign 605 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: has been like just sold. Yeah, it's like issued to 606 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: the public, and you can trade it, right, right, So 607 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: that creates a price, right right, Like there's trading. Anyone 608 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: who wants to can own it. Creates a price. They 609 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: can you know, in theory, vote on whatever they if 610 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: they end up buying info Wars, then the holders of 611 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: the token can vote, so like ten percent or so 612 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: is public, and then like some percentage of it has 613 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: been reserved for like the guy doing this right wowed 614 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: out AI the company, right, and then fifty one percent 615 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: has been reserved for the bid. The bid would be 616 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: in exchange for info Wars will give the bankruptcy a 617 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: state three point five million dollars in cash and fifty 618 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: one percent of this token. And then the bankruptcy state 619 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: meaning the creditors meaning the Sandiak parents would get those tokens, 620 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: and there's like some lock up on how one that 621 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: could sell them. Okay, but the idea is like the 622 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: bankruptcy state the creditors would let's say share in the 623 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: economics of future info wars by owning this meme coin. Now, 624 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: when I say share in the economics, I'm like rolling 625 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: my eyes because. 626 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 2: That actually said that with a completely straight faced. 627 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: On the inside. Yeah, you can't see me rolling my eyes, 628 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: and neither conm kiddie. But the whole thing about meme 629 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: coins is that a meme coin is like it's like 630 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: linked to the value of this being, but like not 631 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: through any methods. Right, It's just like, yeah, maybe it is, right, Like, 632 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: it's just like if people feel like it's linked to 633 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: the value of the meme, then it's linked to the 634 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: value of the meme, but it has no like ownership 635 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: of the meme, right, And so like here that meme 636 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: coin is not It does not entitle you to cash 637 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: flows from intro wars. It's just like a meme coin. 638 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: That's the thing. It's like a weird kind of stock 639 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: that doesn't convey ownership. 640 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 2: I was going to say, this coin or token or 641 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 2: whatever we're calling it has clearer fundamentals than most anything else, yes. 642 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: But still no fundamentals. Yeah, I agree with you, clearer 643 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: fundamentals than most mime points, but still not Yeah. 644 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 2: You would have an easier time building a case for 645 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 2: why this has fundamentals though, then yeah. 646 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: Because it gives you voting rights over a thing that 647 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: you care about. Yeah right, Like, I mean, you don't 648 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: have to care about it, but like the people trading 649 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: it probably care about it. 650 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 2: Right. 651 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: It gives you voting rights about what will happen with 652 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: this like culturally salient and controversial property. Right, So it 653 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: does have fundamentals, but it doesn't have cash flows. And 654 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: so they can say with a somewhat straight face, it's 655 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: not stock, it's not a security. It's not an investment. 656 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: By the way, if like their bid fails, it just 657 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: goes away. Yeah, that's nothing happens. 658 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 2: I was just gonna ask, So, if you care about this, 659 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 2: you would buy this coin now in hopes of having 660 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 2: voting rights in the future. If this doesn't work, then 661 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 2: it doesn't work. He's well, you tried. Yeah, that's interesting. 662 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: It's not like you know, you would imagine doing this 663 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: like ten years ago, going to an investment bank and 664 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: trying to build a structure that allowed you to like 665 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: prefund your bit and where it's like yo, you put 666 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: the money in escro and then like you give it 667 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: back if the bid fails, like, there's not I here. 668 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: It's just like a mean point. If it fails, it 669 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: goes to zero. It doesn't matter. 670 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 2: How do you think the bankruptcy judge is reading this? 671 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: I assume he's rolling his eye on the inside too. 672 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: I don't really know. I don't understand the process there, 673 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: because he's sort of like giving up on doing an option. 674 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: But uh, the mean cooin guy said to I think 675 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal. He said, like, I put in 676 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,239 Speaker 1: a three point five million dollar cash component to the bed, 677 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: which is was what Fuak offered at one point. Is 678 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: I put in that cash component so that people would like, 679 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: would take me seriously? Yeah, because like I think if 680 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: you just showed up bidding a meme coin, people would 681 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: not take you seriously at all. And I don't think that. 682 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 2: Would you still have written about it. 683 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 1: I don't know that I would have taken it seriously. 684 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 2: Wow, there you haven't. 685 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: But right, I don't know how the tanks is gonna 686 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: take it whatever rot on Thursday, Like this is gonna 687 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: be a thing, right, Like I feel so stupid saying this, 688 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: but like this is a good financing mechanism for this situation, right, 689 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: for like the situation where you're like bidding in bankruptcy 690 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: and you don't know if you're gonna win, and you're 691 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: bidding for a relatively small, controversial online like right wing 692 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: memi property using a meme coin to fund that, Like 693 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: it's like it's like fit for purpose. Yeah, and so 694 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: you probably are gonna see like a ton of situations 695 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 1: where that applies. For this will be the last one. 696 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 2: It's bread new world. 697 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: You know, like the Red Lobster bankruptcy. Someone could have 698 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: come in with a meme coin, like you know, like 699 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: it's a thing. 700 00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 2: Not if only if they had been able to hold 701 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 2: out for another year, shrimp shrimped to death. 702 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 1: And that was the Money Stuff Podcast. 703 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 2: I'm Matt Livian and I'm Katie Greifeld. 704 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: You can find my work by subscribing to the money 705 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 1: Stuff newsletter. I'm Bloomberg dot. 706 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,879 Speaker 2: Com, and you can find me on Bloomberg TV every 707 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 2: day on Open Interest between nine to eleven am Easter. 708 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. You can send an 709 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,399 Speaker 1: email to moneypot at Bloomberg dot net ask us a question. 710 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: We might answer it on air. 711 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,720 Speaker 2: You can also subscribe to our show wherever you're listening 712 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 2: right now and leave us a review. It helps more 713 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 2: people find the show. 714 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: The Money Stuff Podcast is produced by Anna Maserakis and 715 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: Moses on Them. 716 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 2: Our theme music was composed by Blake Naples, Brandon, Francis Nudimassar, 717 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 2: executive producer and Stage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of podcasts. 718 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to The Money Stuff Podcast. 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