WEBVTT - How to Gamble Like a Chess Player, with Jennifer Shahade 0:00:15.564 --> 0:00:27.284 Pushkin. Hey everyone, I'm Maria Kanikova and welcome to a 0:00:27.444 --> 0:00:31.364 special episode of Risky Business, our podcast with Nate Silver 0:00:31.764 --> 0:00:35.644 about making better decisions. Except today it's just me and 0:00:35.964 --> 0:00:40.884 a very special guest, Jennifer Shahade. Jennifer is someone who 0:00:41.004 --> 0:00:45.164 I've known for many years, and she is a truly 0:00:45.404 --> 0:00:50.244 extraordinary individual. She is a two times Women's US Chess champ, 0:00:50.604 --> 0:00:55.444 the first woman to win the Junior Championship, a Woman's Grandmaster, 0:00:56.044 --> 0:01:00.284 and the author of multiple books, Play Like a Girl, 0:01:00.684 --> 0:01:05.084 Play Like a Champion, Chess Bitch, and Chess Queens, and 0:01:05.404 --> 0:01:09.884 the upcoming Thinking Sideways. Jennifer, thank you so so much 0:01:09.884 --> 0:01:12.844 for joining. So happy to have you here on Risky Business. 0:01:13.244 --> 0:01:16.644 Oh I'm so excited about your podcast. Maria. It's wonderful 0:01:16.684 --> 0:01:17.204 to be here. 0:01:19.004 --> 0:01:22.564 So I want to start with your upbringing, because you 0:01:22.644 --> 0:01:25.404 are someone who not only is in a risky business, 0:01:25.524 --> 0:01:28.284 because you and I are actually members of Poker Stars 0:01:28.284 --> 0:01:32.164 Team Pro together, so we also played poker and that's 0:01:32.164 --> 0:01:35.724 how we originally met. But you are someone who's been 0:01:35.764 --> 0:01:39.804 thinking through this lens of gaming for most of your life. 0:01:40.044 --> 0:01:42.484 So I'd like to go back to your childhood and 0:01:42.604 --> 0:01:44.884 I'd love for you to tell us about how you 0:01:44.924 --> 0:01:47.364 got introduced to the world of games. 0:01:48.004 --> 0:01:51.404 Oh, it's honestly before I can even remember. There's a 0:01:51.404 --> 0:01:54.404 picture of me when I was two years old playing 0:01:54.444 --> 0:01:57.604 against my brother in chess, and obviously I don't think 0:01:57.604 --> 0:02:02.484 I knew the moves quite then, but it definitely really 0:02:02.724 --> 0:02:06.724 predated any memories that I have. My parents are also 0:02:06.884 --> 0:02:11.244 big lovers of card games, poker, bred Everything in our 0:02:11.284 --> 0:02:14.124 life is about games, and they were also really big 0:02:14.164 --> 0:02:17.084 into sports and sports betting, so I know that's another 0:02:17.124 --> 0:02:20.244 aspect of this podcast, so I feel much at home here. 0:02:21.084 --> 0:02:23.444 I actually didn't know that about sports betting, so let's 0:02:23.484 --> 0:02:26.284 return to that in a second. But first, your brother 0:02:26.404 --> 0:02:28.844 is actually also someone who is well known in the 0:02:28.844 --> 0:02:31.364 world of chess, as is your father. Right, so you 0:02:31.404 --> 0:02:34.964 are someone who comes from what's known as a chess family. 0:02:35.724 --> 0:02:37.684 Yeah, that's right, and it's really typical. 0:02:37.724 --> 0:02:40.684 Honestly, it's a very very typical way for chess players 0:02:40.684 --> 0:02:43.604 to get into the game is via their family, especially 0:02:43.644 --> 0:02:46.244 women players. I feel like when you talk to a 0:02:46.244 --> 0:02:48.964 female player, it's very very typical that her brother plays, 0:02:49.004 --> 0:02:51.564 her father plays, her mother plays, and I think a 0:02:51.564 --> 0:02:52.804 lot of that is it just gives them that like 0:02:52.884 --> 0:02:54.404 kind of built in support network. 0:02:55.684 --> 0:02:58.924 And what was it about the game chess that first 0:02:58.924 --> 0:03:02.444 attracted you? Was it the competitive angle or was it 0:03:02.484 --> 0:03:05.764 the fact that you're thinking about kind of decision making 0:03:06.524 --> 0:03:09.284 on a different level. Do you happen to remember because 0:03:09.964 --> 0:03:12.124 I you know, when I was a little kid, my 0:03:12.204 --> 0:03:14.124 parents tried to get me to play chess and that 0:03:14.164 --> 0:03:14.884 did not stick. 0:03:15.604 --> 0:03:15.804 Yeah. 0:03:15.844 --> 0:03:18.444 I think I heard about this the Scholar's Mate right 0:03:18.604 --> 0:03:20.604 before exact listen. 0:03:20.644 --> 0:03:24.724 It happened to Beth Harmon and she recovered from it, 0:03:24.844 --> 0:03:25.804 So you know, you're good. 0:03:27.924 --> 0:03:31.244 Yes for listeners of the podcast who don't know this story. 0:03:31.964 --> 0:03:34.244 When I was in fifth grade, I learned how to 0:03:34.244 --> 0:03:39.484 play chess and during my first ever chess competition, succumbed 0:03:39.524 --> 0:03:42.564 to scholars mate, which is a mate in three moves. 0:03:43.364 --> 0:03:44.964 And that was a move that was done by a 0:03:45.004 --> 0:03:47.644 five year old when I was in fifth grade, and 0:03:47.724 --> 0:03:51.964 I never recovered and have never played chess since then. Such, 0:03:52.204 --> 0:03:53.924 you clearly had a very different experience. 0:03:54.444 --> 0:03:56.124 Yeah, well, I'm sure I got made it in the 0:03:56.244 --> 0:03:58.324 scholars I do remember getting made in the scholars Mate, 0:03:58.364 --> 0:04:00.524 and it's a bit of a tangent, but because it's 0:04:00.604 --> 0:04:03.364 risky business. I am going to mention a story about 0:04:03.364 --> 0:04:06.564 the scholar's mate. So a lot of kids like the 0:04:06.804 --> 0:04:09.404 like the horrible five year old who checkmated you and four, 0:04:09.964 --> 0:04:13.284 they try the scholar's mate because it works. But it's 0:04:13.284 --> 0:04:16.164 not a good opening, right, It's objectively bad because if 0:04:16.204 --> 0:04:19.964 your opponent knows to avoid it, then you know you're 0:04:20.204 --> 0:04:22.204 gonna get a bad position. So it's very much an 0:04:22.204 --> 0:04:25.084 equity calculation. So the Scholar's made at the age of 0:04:25.124 --> 0:04:27.724 like five and six, kids are thinking about that. Actually, 0:04:28.364 --> 0:04:31.564 and my son actually was sitting in on an online 0:04:31.564 --> 0:04:35.324 class with Magnus Carlson, the highest rated chess player in history. 0:04:35.724 --> 0:04:37.164 Your son, how old is he? 0:04:37.164 --> 0:04:38.604 He's seven now. 0:04:38.924 --> 0:04:42.684 And he is sitting in on a class with Magnus Carlson. 0:04:42.844 --> 0:04:46.244 And what's your son's name, Fabian? And who is he 0:04:46.324 --> 0:04:47.044 named after? 0:04:47.404 --> 0:04:49.404 Well, in a way, he was named after the world 0:04:49.524 --> 0:04:52.764 number two player, Fabiano Carojuana. 0:04:53.084 --> 0:04:57.044 Actually in a way, in a way, all right, So back. 0:04:56.844 --> 0:05:00.004 To your story. So Fabian is in this class with 0:05:00.084 --> 0:05:01.284 Magnus Curlson. 0:05:01.124 --> 0:05:03.044 And one of the kids asks Magnus, like, what do 0:05:03.084 --> 0:05:04.964 you think about the form of checkmate? And you know 0:05:05.004 --> 0:05:07.604 everybody's expecting Magnus is just gonna say no, don't play 0:05:07.604 --> 0:05:09.164 the form of checkmate. It's not a good opening, but 0:05:09.404 --> 0:05:11.324 it's like, yeah, you know, it's not that bad to 0:05:11.364 --> 0:05:14.884 try it. And I really I was like everybody was shocked. 0:05:14.884 --> 0:05:16.444 And one of the coaches in the in the room 0:05:16.524 --> 0:05:18.804 tried to like actually disagree. 0:05:18.324 --> 0:05:21.204 With Magnus on the air, and I'm like, wait a. 0:05:21.204 --> 0:05:23.724 Second, and no, I actually thought about it later and 0:05:23.764 --> 0:05:25.844 I really loved it because I think what he was 0:05:26.004 --> 0:05:26.564 trying to say. 0:05:26.604 --> 0:05:28.204 I mean, he didn't expand on it. 0:05:28.244 --> 0:05:31.004 But as many people might know, Magnus also really likes poker, 0:05:31.044 --> 0:05:34.044 and he also really likes sportsbetting. Is that, you know, 0:05:34.084 --> 0:05:37.564 why try to take away this instinct of children to 0:05:37.644 --> 0:05:40.324 go for equity, Like I actually it's a good instinct, 0:05:40.404 --> 0:05:43.084 you know, like, yeah, you're gonna look, you're not gonna 0:05:43.124 --> 0:05:45.004 get that check made every time, but the ten or 0:05:45.044 --> 0:05:46.724 twenty percent of the time that you do, you're gonna 0:05:46.724 --> 0:05:50.244 win in foremos. So you know, it was the first 0:05:50.244 --> 0:05:53.644 time I'd ever since heard a grandmaster say that, and 0:05:54.324 --> 0:05:55.524 it stuck with me. 0:05:56.804 --> 0:06:01.684 So that's actually a really interesting story. And I love 0:06:02.044 --> 0:06:05.404 how you mentioned the idea of equity and how we 0:06:05.484 --> 0:06:08.764 think about equity. And now in poker, when you're talking 0:06:08.804 --> 0:06:11.204 about equity, you're talking about something very specific, right, the 0:06:11.204 --> 0:06:13.524 equity of your hand, the future value of your hand, 0:06:13.884 --> 0:06:17.044 how many chips you can imagine getting in the future, 0:06:17.124 --> 0:06:20.804 And it's kind of this calculation that you're constantly trying 0:06:20.844 --> 0:06:23.564 to make. So when you're talking about equity in chess, 0:06:23.644 --> 0:06:25.524 are you thinking about it in the same way or 0:06:25.564 --> 0:06:26.524 is it slightly different? 0:06:27.524 --> 0:06:30.164 Well, that's a great question when it comes to talking 0:06:30.164 --> 0:06:33.084 about somebody like Magnus Carlson, because I really think that 0:06:33.124 --> 0:06:35.124 it used to be very different. When I was a 0:06:35.204 --> 0:06:39.324 kid playing chess, we didn't really think about equity or probability. 0:06:39.564 --> 0:06:41.964 It was more like we were looking for the best move, 0:06:42.604 --> 0:06:45.884 and that is the way that most chess computers taught 0:06:45.964 --> 0:06:49.164 us as well. But nowadays I think that chess players 0:06:49.204 --> 0:06:50.724 are thinking more like poker players. 0:06:50.724 --> 0:06:52.644 They are thinking about equity even more. 0:06:53.004 --> 0:06:55.004 They're thinking not just about what the best move is, 0:06:55.084 --> 0:06:59.084 but more about what move is likely to destabilize. 0:06:58.404 --> 0:07:00.924 Your opponent and make them potentially. 0:07:00.724 --> 0:07:03.044 Fall for the form of checkmate so that you can 0:07:03.524 --> 0:07:07.564 win that ten percent of the times. Right now, so 0:07:07.764 --> 0:07:11.164 it's become really a ruthless equity hunting game, just like poker. 0:07:12.084 --> 0:07:15.684 So you're really thinking about not just kind of the 0:07:15.684 --> 0:07:18.524 present moment, but the future, and you're trying to make 0:07:18.564 --> 0:07:22.644 this probabilistic calculation, not just what does this move mean 0:07:22.764 --> 0:07:25.964 right now, but what does this move mean for my 0:07:26.164 --> 0:07:30.124 future ability to win? Given that it might there's an 0:07:30.164 --> 0:07:33.324 ex probability that it's going to make my opponent get 0:07:33.364 --> 0:07:35.964 really nervous, there's a why probability that it's going to 0:07:36.004 --> 0:07:40.084 make my opponent blunder. So is that kind of how 0:07:40.124 --> 0:07:42.764 we're thinking about it now exactly? 0:07:42.884 --> 0:07:44.964 Of course, in chess, we're always trying to think about 0:07:45.044 --> 0:07:48.764 what our opponent will play. But usually when I was taught, 0:07:48.884 --> 0:07:51.444 I was always told always assume your opponent's going to 0:07:51.444 --> 0:07:55.284 play the best move, because if they play a weaker move, 0:07:55.324 --> 0:07:57.684 you'll win anyway. But if they play the best move, 0:07:57.724 --> 0:08:00.324 you need to really prepare for that. Nowadays, I think there's. 0:08:00.124 --> 0:08:01.164 A little bit more nuanced. 0:08:01.244 --> 0:08:04.724 Well, people will really think about the psychological aspect of 0:08:04.724 --> 0:08:07.684 the game of chess more, and in that way, I 0:08:07.684 --> 0:08:09.684 think the games of chess and poker are really starting 0:08:09.764 --> 0:08:12.284 to converge a little bit. Chess players are playing a 0:08:12.324 --> 0:08:15.084 little bit more like poker players, and well, we definitely 0:08:15.084 --> 0:08:17.044 know that poker players are a little bit more chess 0:08:17.124 --> 0:08:19.604 like these days in the way they study and approach 0:08:19.644 --> 0:08:19.964 the game. 0:08:20.964 --> 0:08:23.804 Yeah, that's that's a really interesting point because one of 0:08:23.844 --> 0:08:25.804 the things that you said really jumped out at me. 0:08:26.204 --> 0:08:28.804 You said, in chess, we no longer kind of assume 0:08:28.844 --> 0:08:31.684 that that your opponent is going to make the best move, 0:08:32.204 --> 0:08:40.084 and in poker, you actually are now assuming that your 0:08:40.124 --> 0:08:43.124 opponent is going to play game theory optimal is going 0:08:43.244 --> 0:08:46.564 to make the best move every time, and you're trying 0:08:46.564 --> 0:08:50.124 to counter that because you know, in an interesting way, 0:08:50.124 --> 0:08:53.244 I think poker is at a stage of its evolution 0:08:53.364 --> 0:08:55.644 where chess has been for a while, where there are 0:08:55.684 --> 0:08:58.564 now solvers and kind of ways that try to approximate 0:08:59.044 --> 0:09:01.964 ideal behavior quote unquote, even though in poker it's it's 0:09:02.124 --> 0:09:05.244 different than in chess because it is an imperfect information game, 0:09:05.924 --> 0:09:08.884 but I do think it's this really interesting overlap in 0:09:09.004 --> 0:09:11.764 terms of decisions and in terms of what we consider 0:09:12.164 --> 0:09:14.244 to be optimal decision making. 0:09:14.564 --> 0:09:17.124 I think that's like the reason why honestly poker is 0:09:17.164 --> 0:09:20.284 so tantalizing, why it stood the test of time, that 0:09:20.804 --> 0:09:22.724 you kind of have to balance the two polls. To me, 0:09:22.884 --> 0:09:27.004 like the word poker itself, Like playing poker means adjusting, 0:09:27.524 --> 0:09:31.764 like being present, right, it's paying attention and like actually 0:09:31.964 --> 0:09:34.604 thinking about what your opponent is doing. And the other 0:09:34.604 --> 0:09:37.644 stuff is like the theory that you fall back on 0:09:37.764 --> 0:09:40.084 if you don't really pick up on anything, if your 0:09:40.244 --> 0:09:42.284 ability to try to pay attention and see what your 0:09:42.284 --> 0:09:44.044 opponents doesn't give you much of a read, and then 0:09:44.084 --> 0:09:45.724 you're just like, well, I guess this is what I 0:09:45.764 --> 0:09:48.924 have to do. And that to me is that like 0:09:49.004 --> 0:09:52.324 everlasting tension between like what you think and what you 0:09:52.404 --> 0:09:55.884 feel and having to choose between them in every situation. 0:09:58.044 --> 0:10:02.444 So it seems like what you're saying, and this is 0:10:02.484 --> 0:10:06.204 also me being biased as someone who plays poker and 0:10:06.244 --> 0:10:13.844 doesn't play chess, but it seems like poker is a 0:10:13.884 --> 0:10:16.004 better if we're trying. If we then go from the 0:10:16.044 --> 0:10:18.524 world of games to the world of real life, it 0:10:18.564 --> 0:10:22.124 seems like poker might be a better way of thinking 0:10:22.284 --> 0:10:26.204 about risk and decision making as we interact with people 0:10:26.244 --> 0:10:28.724 and make decisions away from the game table. 0:10:30.204 --> 0:10:34.244 Yeah, I think poker does mirror life more than chess does, 0:10:34.404 --> 0:10:38.684 partly because it's not fair. You know, there's some people 0:10:38.804 --> 0:10:41.324 who get lucky. There's people who get lucky three or 0:10:41.364 --> 0:10:43.804 four times in a row. There are people who start 0:10:43.804 --> 0:10:46.764 out with the ability to rebuy, you know, over and 0:10:46.804 --> 0:10:49.324 over again and keep buying into the game even if 0:10:49.324 --> 0:10:52.484 they play badly or bust. So there's just a lot 0:10:52.484 --> 0:10:54.564 of more similarities with life. And then the fact that 0:10:54.604 --> 0:10:57.884 the currency of poker is money is chips, which stand 0:10:57.884 --> 0:11:01.964 for money, and so much about life is what power 0:11:02.004 --> 0:11:03.684 you have based on how much money you have and 0:11:03.684 --> 0:11:07.244 how much capital you have. So for sure, I think 0:11:07.284 --> 0:11:10.244 there are more like day to day decisions that you 0:11:10.284 --> 0:11:15.684 can make from poker. That said, as a lifel chess player, 0:11:16.364 --> 0:11:18.444 I have to give some shout outs to chests too, 0:11:18.444 --> 0:11:20.204 because one of the beautiful things about chess is that 0:11:20.884 --> 0:11:22.164 it does. 0:11:21.964 --> 0:11:24.084 Bring you into this like beautiful flow state. 0:11:24.684 --> 0:11:26.964 And that's really why I love chess for children too, 0:11:27.084 --> 0:11:30.444 because you can see them kind of achieve that state 0:11:30.684 --> 0:11:34.284 even at like six, seven, eight years old. And maybe 0:11:34.284 --> 0:11:36.164 they're not going to be professional chess players, I mean, 0:11:36.324 --> 0:11:38.804 very few of them will, but my hope is always 0:11:38.924 --> 0:11:41.164 that they'll remember that flow state and be able to 0:11:41.244 --> 0:11:43.884 kind of, you know, jump into that in other parts 0:11:43.884 --> 0:11:46.564 of their lives and just like forget about everything else 0:11:46.604 --> 0:11:49.284 that is going on and just, you know, enjoy the moment. 0:11:49.604 --> 0:11:54.844 So I think that that's an interesting thing about about 0:11:54.924 --> 0:11:57.844 chess versus poker that I hadn't really thought about, because 0:11:57.884 --> 0:12:00.004 for me, you know, poker is a way that I've 0:12:00.004 --> 0:12:03.404 actually been able to achieve flow states quite often because 0:12:03.404 --> 0:12:05.964 when you're really in the zone. Since it's the only 0:12:06.084 --> 0:12:08.324 game I play, it's the only time that kind of 0:12:08.404 --> 0:12:12.564 I've found myself in that sort of situation. When did 0:12:12.644 --> 0:12:15.084 you make the switch from chess to poker. Obviously you've 0:12:15.084 --> 0:12:18.244 never switched entirely, you still play chess, but in terms 0:12:18.364 --> 0:12:22.884 of kind of your interest, when did you start migrating 0:12:22.924 --> 0:12:23.604 in that direction? 0:12:24.484 --> 0:12:25.644 You know, it was kind of gradual. 0:12:25.804 --> 0:12:29.404 My brother got into poker, and I was dabbling in 0:12:29.444 --> 0:12:31.764 it via him and some of my other chess friends, 0:12:31.804 --> 0:12:34.564 because at the time of the poker boom, a lot 0:12:34.604 --> 0:12:38.724 of chess players, backgammon players, anyone who really had an 0:12:38.724 --> 0:12:41.004 interest in any kind of game were flocking to poker 0:12:41.044 --> 0:12:44.684 because they thought, honestly, it was easy money. And it's 0:12:44.724 --> 0:12:47.124 funny because I was a little slow to the game 0:12:47.164 --> 0:12:50.844 compared to them, And I remember my mother, who was 0:12:51.044 --> 0:12:54.124 the stone opposite of all my other poker friends' moms, 0:12:54.444 --> 0:12:56.244 because she she called me once and she. 0:12:56.284 --> 0:12:58.244 Was like, Jen, why aren't you playing more poker like 0:12:58.324 --> 0:12:59.804 your friends? What's going on? 0:13:00.604 --> 0:13:01.124 I love that? 0:13:03.404 --> 0:13:06.124 And so yeah, but I finally did take her advice 0:13:06.204 --> 0:13:07.684 and I got a bit more into it. 0:13:08.604 --> 0:13:09.244 But you know, I always have. 0:13:09.564 --> 0:13:11.044 I think one of the issues that it's a little 0:13:11.084 --> 0:13:14.124 underestimated and poker is that it's really important to have, 0:13:14.324 --> 0:13:16.484 especially if you want to play live poker, and in 0:13:16.724 --> 0:13:19.484 the United States right now, unfortunately, there's not a lot 0:13:19.524 --> 0:13:22.164 of regulated places that you can play online. You really 0:13:22.204 --> 0:13:26.124 need a decent chunk of money. It's not that easy 0:13:26.244 --> 0:13:28.964 to get in there. I mean, it's it's probably better 0:13:29.004 --> 0:13:30.964 than most games because you can kind of hang out 0:13:31.004 --> 0:13:33.964 and you know, spend go to like the UH one 0:13:34.084 --> 0:13:37.604 two or one three tables, like the lower poker table, 0:13:37.804 --> 0:13:41.644 the lowest buy in that you can find in Vegas 0:13:41.684 --> 0:13:43.804 or Atlantic City, and you can maybe have a few 0:13:43.804 --> 0:13:45.844 hours of entertainment for a couple hundred bucks. 0:13:46.204 --> 0:13:49.764 But overall, like it's an expensive hobby. 0:13:49.764 --> 0:13:52.164 I would say, so that that's probably why it took 0:13:52.164 --> 0:13:54.004 me a little while to get more into it. 0:13:54.484 --> 0:13:58.164 So your son plays chess, right now, but not poker, correct. 0:13:58.484 --> 0:14:01.004 Right, that's right. But he loves he loves watching poker. 0:14:01.124 --> 0:14:03.164 You're you're one of his favorite players. He likes, he 0:14:03.324 --> 0:14:07.164 likes you, Maria Hoe and chuannlu and well, of course me. 0:14:07.764 --> 0:14:13.484 So it's all about the top of women buyers. I love. 0:14:13.564 --> 0:14:16.484 I love that it's so female centric because that's actually 0:14:16.764 --> 0:14:19.364 that's so important, and you know, that's it's a really 0:14:19.404 --> 0:14:23.044 wonderful thing to see that women can also excel in 0:14:23.364 --> 0:14:27.764 a game that is so incredibly male dominated. When he 0:14:27.924 --> 0:14:31.324 watches poker, is he interested in the strategic elements? Is 0:14:31.364 --> 0:14:33.604 he thinking of it kind of in the same terms 0:14:33.604 --> 0:14:35.444 that you've taught him to think about chess. 0:14:36.804 --> 0:14:39.444 Yeah, but I find that kids it's harder for them 0:14:39.444 --> 0:14:42.684 to understand poker than chess, even though you know, technically 0:14:42.684 --> 0:14:45.164 it probably is easier to teach an adult the roles 0:14:45.204 --> 0:14:47.604 of poker than the roles of chess, partly because kids 0:14:47.644 --> 0:14:51.204 don't usually know that much about about money, and I 0:14:51.244 --> 0:14:53.964 think also the probabilistic thinking is pretty tricky for them 0:14:53.964 --> 0:14:57.164 as well. So, yeah, he's definitely looking to see what 0:14:57.204 --> 0:14:59.804 people have and whether they're going to make their hand. 0:14:59.964 --> 0:15:03.884 But I wouldn't say it comes supernaturally to kids. 0:15:04.724 --> 0:15:07.124 And I think that that's a really crucial point because 0:15:07.124 --> 0:15:08.964 one of the things that I love about pokers that 0:15:09.004 --> 0:15:12.004 it does each probabilistic thinking, which is something that does 0:15:12.084 --> 0:15:15.044 not come naturally to the human brain at all. Right, 0:15:15.124 --> 0:15:19.964 we are so bad at calculating risk, at calculating probabilities, 0:15:20.004 --> 0:15:23.524 at thinking in that way. It's just not something that 0:15:24.244 --> 0:15:31.684 comes naturally at all to the human mind. We'll be 0:15:31.724 --> 0:15:47.724 back in a minute now, switching away from kind of 0:15:47.764 --> 0:15:51.124 you as gamer, and you now kind of in your 0:15:51.204 --> 0:15:54.684 professional life, so you are a writer as well. You're 0:15:55.124 --> 0:16:00.404 someone who's been involved professionally in chess organizations, in teaching 0:16:00.444 --> 0:16:04.004 and mentoring women in all of these things. How has 0:16:04.084 --> 0:16:08.364 your thinking about risk, about risk taking migrated over from 0:16:08.444 --> 0:16:10.844 the fact that you you up kind of trained in 0:16:10.924 --> 0:16:14.244 this game's way of thinking, and how has it not? 0:16:14.684 --> 0:16:17.764 Because I think that you obviously hear both perspectives, right. 0:16:17.764 --> 0:16:19.804 You hear the people who say, oh, you know, chess, poker, 0:16:19.804 --> 0:16:22.524 et cetera. They really helped me and they helped me 0:16:22.564 --> 0:16:24.844 make decisions. And then there are some people and maybe 0:16:24.844 --> 0:16:26.884 they wouldn't say it, but I know some poker players 0:16:26.884 --> 0:16:29.164 who are really good at poker and then just so 0:16:29.164 --> 0:16:32.004 so dumb away from the poker table. So I I'd 0:16:32.084 --> 0:16:35.164 love to hear how you think about it and kind 0:16:35.164 --> 0:16:39.284 of how your non poker life, non chess life has evolved. 0:16:40.084 --> 0:16:43.524 Oh, poker, absolutely, I'll start with poker because it's like 0:16:43.604 --> 0:16:47.044 more forefront of my mind. Poker absolutely helped me because 0:16:47.084 --> 0:16:50.524 I never took a finance class or an econ class, 0:16:50.644 --> 0:16:53.084 and I really feel like poker is just like a 0:16:53.124 --> 0:16:57.124 miniature lesson in finance, and just even the idea that 0:16:57.164 --> 0:16:59.644 if you just put your money in a checking account 0:16:59.684 --> 0:17:02.084 and don't do anything to it, you're technically losing money 0:17:02.124 --> 0:17:05.044 because of inflation. I mean, poker teaches you that very quickly, 0:17:05.084 --> 0:17:08.284 because you got annie and so the annies go up 0:17:08.524 --> 0:17:11.764 as the turn of it progresses, So you will lose 0:17:11.804 --> 0:17:12.324 money if you. 0:17:12.244 --> 0:17:13.004 Don't do anything. 0:17:13.564 --> 0:17:16.964 And I just love that analogy because I feel that 0:17:17.484 --> 0:17:21.404 you feel it very viscerally. If you play poker in 0:17:21.404 --> 0:17:24.124 a few tournaments and you don't play enough hands, you 0:17:24.164 --> 0:17:27.124 lose your money slowly. You play too many hands, you 0:17:27.204 --> 0:17:30.404 lose your money quickly. I mean, what better metaphor there 0:17:30.484 --> 0:17:33.604 is there for like investing wisely? I can't think of one. 0:17:35.964 --> 0:17:38.644 Did do you feel like you have a higher risk tolerance, 0:17:38.684 --> 0:17:40.804 because obviously you know, as a fellow writer, I know 0:17:40.844 --> 0:17:45.364 that writing books has a huge risk, both financially and personally, 0:17:45.404 --> 0:17:48.164 because you're putting yourself out there. Do you think that 0:17:48.244 --> 0:17:51.284 you were prepared more prepared to do that because you 0:17:51.364 --> 0:17:53.164 understand the way that risk works. 0:17:53.804 --> 0:17:54.564 Yeah, definitely. 0:17:54.564 --> 0:17:57.764 I also started to understand, especially with bluffing, that if 0:17:57.804 --> 0:18:02.044 you in poker are never getting called and realizing that 0:18:02.284 --> 0:18:05.084 you know, hey, you've got it high, that you're actually 0:18:05.124 --> 0:18:07.524 not bluffing enough. And so I started to realize that 0:18:07.564 --> 0:18:09.564 maybe in life I wasn't taking enough risks because I 0:18:09.644 --> 0:18:12.884 wasn't getting told no enough. That people were too happy 0:18:12.924 --> 0:18:15.004 with me all the time. If people are always happy 0:18:15.044 --> 0:18:17.604 with you, it means that maybe you're not asking for enough, 0:18:17.644 --> 0:18:20.164 You're not putting enough pressure on them, You're not asking 0:18:20.164 --> 0:18:22.604 for enough money, you're not getting told no that is 0:18:22.644 --> 0:18:26.684 too high. And so I definitely figure that out from poker, 0:18:26.724 --> 0:18:28.044 and I think that that's a lesson that a lot 0:18:28.084 --> 0:18:29.444 of women have to learn from poker. 0:18:31.004 --> 0:18:35.884 I'd love to actually talk about that a little bit. Obviously, 0:18:36.284 --> 0:18:39.484 poker is an incredibly male dominated area, and chess is 0:18:39.524 --> 0:18:46.644 also an incredibly male dominated area. Now, when you start 0:18:46.684 --> 0:18:51.044 negotiating while female, right, it's like driving well drunk negotiating 0:18:51.044 --> 0:18:54.404 well female. I'm using that. I'm using that language on 0:18:54.444 --> 0:18:58.964 purpose because it's a very very different beast and I 0:18:59.284 --> 0:19:02.524 found that. You know, I was horrible at negotiating pre poker, 0:19:03.364 --> 0:19:07.964 and I am much better at negotiating now than I 0:19:08.004 --> 0:19:11.124 ever was before. But you still get penalized for trying 0:19:11.164 --> 0:19:14.684 to ask for more, for trying to actually get what 0:19:14.684 --> 0:19:18.484 you're worth as a woman, because the exact same tactics 0:19:18.524 --> 0:19:20.324 and this is true at the poker table too, that 0:19:20.404 --> 0:19:22.604 work for men don't work for women. You know, if 0:19:22.604 --> 0:19:24.444 I try to be as aggressive as you know some 0:19:24.484 --> 0:19:26.564 of the best male players, that might not work for 0:19:26.604 --> 0:19:28.364 me in the same way that it works for them. 0:19:28.724 --> 0:19:31.084 These are all things that you have to consider because 0:19:31.724 --> 0:19:35.164 decision making here isn't existing in a vacuum. You know, 0:19:35.204 --> 0:19:37.524 when you're making decisions and you're female and you're perceived 0:19:37.564 --> 0:19:40.244 as female, that's very different than when you're making decisions 0:19:40.244 --> 0:19:41.724 as a man and being perceived as a man. 0:19:42.524 --> 0:19:45.004 Absolutely, And I mean I think that's the reality, is 0:19:45.044 --> 0:19:47.124 that it's logical a lot of times for women to 0:19:47.164 --> 0:19:50.924 be less risky, and that's what we need to change. 0:19:51.004 --> 0:19:53.084 We need to change the circumstances so that they can 0:19:53.124 --> 0:19:57.004 take more risks wisely, because if you're going to be 0:19:57.044 --> 0:20:01.244 penalized if you take risk, if there's no childcare, if 0:20:01.244 --> 0:20:05.964 there's no you know, policies for women who leave the workplace, 0:20:05.964 --> 0:20:07.684 if they don't have as much capital, if their wages 0:20:07.684 --> 0:20:09.884 are lower, then actually it's really small art for them 0:20:09.884 --> 0:20:12.764 to be risk of ours, right, And so I do 0:20:12.804 --> 0:20:14.884 think it's not about telling women you should. 0:20:14.684 --> 0:20:16.124 Take more risks. That's only part of it. 0:20:16.324 --> 0:20:18.284 The other part of it is how do we create 0:20:18.724 --> 0:20:20.564 a circumstance where they can take more risk. 0:20:21.724 --> 0:20:24.604 I think that's a really really important point. And Nate 0:20:24.644 --> 0:20:28.444 and I, on actually the first ever episode of Risky Business, 0:20:28.444 --> 0:20:33.124 talked about the gender paid gap and how a lot 0:20:33.164 --> 0:20:35.764 of that is because women have to make different decisions, 0:20:35.804 --> 0:20:39.164 different choices, because women are penalized for having children, that 0:20:39.204 --> 0:20:41.604 there are a lot of things that society just isn't 0:20:41.604 --> 0:20:46.244 equipped for when it comes to negotiating well, female, deciding well, female, 0:20:46.644 --> 0:20:47.764 working well female. 0:20:48.884 --> 0:20:50.724 Absolutely, and I did listen to that episode, and I 0:20:50.724 --> 0:20:52.764 also really like the part in your book the Biggest 0:20:52.764 --> 0:20:55.164 Bluff where you talk about how you raised your speaker rate, 0:20:55.324 --> 0:20:58.164 and I believe you got an immediate yes. So it 0:20:58.284 --> 0:21:01.244 turned out that risk was one that worked out very 0:21:01.324 --> 0:21:03.564