1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:04,439 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 2: Many serial killers stock their victims. Cream's victims came to him, 4 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 2: and to add a level of cruelty, they came to 5 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 2: him because they thought they could totally trust him because 6 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 2: he was a doctor. 7 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 8 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold war wicked On Exactly Right. I've 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 11 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,160 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 12 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 13 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories and now we 14 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 15 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: never been published. Wicked Words is about the choices that 16 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: writers make, good and bad. It's a deep dive into 17 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: the stories behind the stories. Dean job is an author 18 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: who lives in Nova Scotia, Canada, and he's written a 19 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: biography about one of the most complicated serial killers I've 20 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: ever read about, Doctor Thomas Neil Cream. Cream was a 21 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: physician who lived in two different Londons, first the one 22 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: in Canada and then he was in the one in England. 23 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: He killed women in both job. Spent years researching Cream's 24 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: life and his murders, and his controversial legacy as one 25 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: of the many men suspected of being Jack the Ripper. 26 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: The story of Thomas Cream, where does it naturally start? 27 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 2: For you? What we have with Cream is a young 28 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 2: man of promise. This is how he's described by people 29 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 2: who knew him growing up. Was born in Scotland, but 30 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 2: as a child came to Quebec City. His father was 31 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 2: a wealthy timber merchant in that city, and by eighteen 32 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 2: seventy six he had graduated from McGill medical School in Montreal. 33 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 2: Looked to be destined to embark on a very successful 34 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 2: career a doctor, but very quickly he becomes almost a 35 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 2: jackal and hide figure, and in eighteen seventy six he 36 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 2: becomes engaged to a young woman in rural Quebec. She 37 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 2: gets pregnant, he performs an abortion, she almost dies, He's 38 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 2: forced to marry her, and he then leaves to do 39 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 2: more training, more medical training in London. But within a year, 40 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 2: this young woman, Flora, brokes his bride is dead, and 41 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 2: suspicions all round that he had been sending her medicine 42 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 2: tainted with poison and had either killed her or at 43 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 2: least contributed to her just rapid decline in health and 44 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 2: eventual death. 45 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: How do we get from this promising person to a 46 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: would be murderer, a wife murderer. Why would people even 47 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: suspect that. 48 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 2: We're talking with someone who got away with multiple crimes 49 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 2: in three countries over quite a long period. And one 50 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 2: of the things that emerges from his story is how 51 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 2: much above suspicion he was because he was a doctor, 52 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 2: which is sort of wheels within wheels, because one of 53 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 2: the reasons he's able to find his victims or they're 54 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 2: coming to him for medical help, is because he's a doctor, 55 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 2: so it gives him access to victims, the people he 56 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 2: decides he wants to poison. When people die, even when 57 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 2: they're his patients, even when he seems to be the 58 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: last person who have seen them, he somehow is above 59 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 2: suspicion because he's this professional medical man. He was in 60 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 2: medical school, was known as a flashy dresser, a bit 61 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 2: of a dandy, flaunted his wealth. A lot of people 62 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 2: interviewed later what was he like in medical school When 63 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 2: they were asked this question said they didn't want to 64 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 2: associate with him. He just was not a very likable 65 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 2: or nice person. And at some point what he was 66 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 2: learning in medical school, which was pretty gruesome stuff. We're 67 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 2: talking about Victorian medicine at an age where there were 68 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 2: no anesthetics for surgery, sterilization for surgery. It was a brutal, 69 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 2: bloody business. And somewhere along the line, instead of using 70 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 2: the skills he learned to heal, he realized that, well, 71 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 2: I've learned how to make medicines. I know exactly how 72 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 2: much of a dociage of strychnine, which was his poison 73 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: of choice. He knew exactly how much of that to 74 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 2: put into a normal form of medicine or a pill 75 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: that would kill. One of his professors exhorted the new 76 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 2: medical students to be upright in godlike and to come 77 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 2: between the living and the dead, and Cream seems to 78 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 2: have decided, well, I'm going to be godlike, but he 79 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 2: would decide who lived and who died. 80 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: Do we know much about his family life Growing up 81 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: in Scotland. 82 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 2: He was from a very religious Presbyterian family. Most of 83 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 2: his upbringing was in Canada, was in Quebec City. He 84 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 2: taught Sunday school sang in the choir. By all accounts, 85 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 2: he seemed to be this exemplary figure. Robert Luis Stephenson's 86 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 2: story Doctor Jacqueline Mister Hyde comes out just about the 87 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 2: same time, and that was on its face, literally is 88 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 2: a story about a doctor who takes a drug that 89 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 2: turns him into a monster. But it's really about this 90 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: dichotomy within some people, this good and evil coexisting, and 91 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 2: doctor Hyde is the evil unleashed by this medicine that 92 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 2: doctor Jekyl invents. And Cream really seems to be this 93 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 2: kind of Victorian figure upright in the daytime, seemingly professional, 94 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 2: yet with this evil lurking within him. 95 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: He gets out of medical school, he marries Flora. Do 96 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 1: you have an impression on what kind of woman Flora was. 97 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 2: Well, she was the daughter of a hotel owner in 98 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 2: a small town called water Luquebec. In that sense they 99 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 2: were kind of similar social status. Cream might have been 100 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 2: certainly from I think a more wealthy family. This by 101 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 2: all accounts, was a forced marriage. Because of the pregnancy, 102 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 2: he could have been charged with the illegal abortion he performed, 103 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 2: but the solution for one of a better word, was 104 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 2: that they would actually get married. Cream seems to have 105 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 2: had no desire or interest in being married at that point, 106 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 2: and in fact, the day after the wedding announced he 107 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 2: was heading to London for further medical training. His wife 108 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 2: never saw him again, and then within a year her 109 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 2: doctor very suspicious that she continued to be ill. He 110 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 2: discovered that she had been taking medicine that Cream had 111 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 2: been sending her across the Atlantic, and as I said, 112 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 2: this contributed to her death. And I think it's pretty 113 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 2: clear from the evidence this was his first victim. 114 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: What was he treating her for when he's sending her 115 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: this medicine not clear. 116 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 2: She was quite sheepish when she admitted to her doctor 117 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 2: she was taking it. She certainly seemed to have suffered 118 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 2: some ill effects from the operation from the abortion. She 119 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 2: trusted him, and that would be the downfall of many 120 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 2: patients to come. 121 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: He is how old when this happens with Flora, approximately. 122 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 2: Twenty five twenty six. 123 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: Is this London, Ontario or is this London, England? Because 124 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: I know he's in both, distinguished between your Londons. 125 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 2: After he comes back the Flora dies, he is in England. 126 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 2: At that point he gets a very prestigious license from 127 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 2: the University of Edinburgh and armed with that, in eighteen 128 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 2: seventy eight, he comes back, settles in a town in 129 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: southern Ontario called London, and sets up a practice. Within 130 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 2: a year, this becomes a scene of the second crime 131 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 2: he's accused of, because a woman who had come to 132 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 2: him for an abortion, her body is found in an 133 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 2: outbuilding just behind where his office is in this city. 134 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 2: By all accounts, he's the last to see her, and 135 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 2: as an inquest is held, it becomes clear that the 136 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 2: scene was staged to look like a suicide. In this case, 137 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 2: her face had been burned with chloroform which had been 138 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 2: held to her face, and through the inquest it became 139 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 2: clear that Kream was the prime suspect. 140 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: Abortion is illegal. Are we talking about an awful lot 141 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: of women in Europe and in Canada who are looking 142 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: for illegal abortions? And I'm assuming the mortality rate was 143 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: quite high well. 144 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 2: The desperation. One source I quoted in the book described 145 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 2: the prospect of giving birth to a child out of 146 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: wedlock as a living death for a woman. The social 147 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: stigma just immense, tainting of someone's reputation that would come 148 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: out from this. Women were desperate to make things right, 149 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 2: as was often the way it was put So when 150 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 2: you look at the press of the time eighteen seventies, 151 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 2: eighteen eighties, late nineteenth century, there are constant reports of 152 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 2: doctors who are either accused of abortions are arrested because 153 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 2: of an abortion that led to the death of a woman, 154 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 2: And it really reflected just how desperate women were. 155 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: So what was his motivation? I understand, Flora, he doesn't 156 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 1: want to be married. 157 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 2: At some point early in his career. The hatred for 158 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 2: women that surfaces is just undeniable. He killed as many 159 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 2: as ten people, all but one were women. They were 160 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 2: either women who were desperate and came to him for 161 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 2: an abortion, or they were sex workers. He once said 162 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 2: that prostitutes were the scourge of the earth and should 163 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:15,959 Speaker 2: be eliminated. It's difficult to know where that switch went off. 164 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 2: Was it because he was trapped in this young early 165 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 2: marriage that he got his way out of. At some 166 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 2: point he becomes a killing machine, and that's undeniable. However 167 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 2: he gets there by victim three four five. He's very deliberate. 168 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 2: He seems to be targeting people and again there are 169 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 2: people that are easy for him to target because they're 170 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,319 Speaker 2: coming to him. There's an inquest held in London, Ontario. 171 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: He becomes basically one of the star witnesses because he 172 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 2: admits it's his patient, and he also admits that she 173 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,599 Speaker 2: had pressured him to perform an abortion. He'd refused a 174 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 2: large amount of money to do it. Not a lot 175 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 2: of people believed him. He came out of the inquest 176 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 2: at that point. The jury found it was a case 177 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 2: of murder, even though it had been made to look 178 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 2: like she might I have committed suicide with using the chloroform. 179 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 2: It was an open verdict in the sense they just 180 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 2: said by person's unknown. But one of Cream's friends later 181 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 2: said everyone thought he was guilty. He only stayed another 182 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 2: few weeks in London and that's when he left town. 183 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 2: Didn't look like there was an imminent arrest. There didn't 184 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 2: seem to be enough evidence, but the suspicion was just overwhelming, 185 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 2: and in retrospect, especially when you follow his career, it's 186 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 2: pretty obvious he was responsible, whether he was trying to 187 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 2: cover up an accident during his surgery or he had 188 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 2: just decided to kill this woman. 189 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: So a doctor who accidentally killed a woman during an 190 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: illegal abortion in the eighteen hundreds would have been tried 191 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: for murder and potentially have been hanged. 192 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 2: Is that right? That's right. There was no legal way 193 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 2: to get an abortion in the late nineteenth century in 194 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 2: North America. There was another graduate of McGill actually who 195 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 2: stood trial and he didn't hang, but was convicted of murder. 196 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: Cream high tails his way out of Canada and where 197 00:10:58,320 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 1: does he go what happens? 198 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 2: Turns up in Chicago a few months later and opens 199 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 2: a practice on the West Side. And then in August 200 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 2: of eighteen eighty, so barely a year after this second death, 201 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 2: a woman is found dead in a house in Chicago. 202 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,079 Speaker 2: He was her doctor, and it looks like some kind 203 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 2: of botched operation abortion. A midwife Hu Cream worked with 204 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 2: and Cream were both charged with murder of this woman, 205 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 2: Mary Anne. 206 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 1: Faulkner, so another inquest. 207 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 2: In this case, there's an inquest. He is sent to trial. 208 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 2: The midwife cuts a deal to testify against him. The 209 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 2: evidence looks damning, but his family is still supportive. His 210 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: father has lots of money and he's able to hire 211 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 2: a man named Alfred Trude, who's one of the best 212 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 2: defense lawyers in Chicago at the time, an incredible record 213 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 2: of acquittals in murder cases and also routinely in the 214 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 2: press accused of bribing juries. Whichever method he used, cream 215 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 2: ends up acquitted. The evidence points to him. His defense 216 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 2: is he's such a skilled doctor, look at all his degrees. 217 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 2: He could have never performed such a horrible operation as 218 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,079 Speaker 2: led to this woman's death. The implication from his side, 219 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 2: from his defense was it was a midwife's fault, and 220 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 2: ultimately a jury acquitted him. 221 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: Do you think he did it on purpose? 222 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 2: I dug out the court file down in Chicago. I 223 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 2: looked at this case in a lot of depth, all 224 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 2: of the coverage, no doubt in my mind, but proved 225 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 2: Bey under reasonable doubt came to his aid. It wasn't definitive, 226 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 2: but I think it's pretty clear is that he was responsible. 227 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 2: And ironically, he uses once again his status as a doctor. 228 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 2: His claim to be this skilled surgeon in this case 229 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 2: leads to him evading justice. So this is victim number 230 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 2: three and again another case of a missed opportunity. If 231 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 2: the jury had convicted him, his career might have ended there. 232 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: I can't imagine that these two women were not his 233 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 1: only patients who requested an abortion, Why choose them? 234 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 2: He seems to have had a fairly busy practice, and 235 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 2: it wasn't all abortions. He was known for that. But 236 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 2: for whatever reason, he would decide and again to play 237 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 2: god and decide that some of these patients would become 238 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 2: his next victim. 239 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: So does he leave Chicago after this happens in eighteen eighty. 240 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:32,239 Speaker 2: Hard to believe. No, he re establishes his practice. 241 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: He's been acquitted, right, that's right. So he's innocent according 242 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: to the court. 243 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 2: Exactly, And that's the position he takes. And throughout his trial. 244 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 2: The earlier incident in London, Ontario was all over the press, 245 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 2: so it was known that he was a suspect in 246 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 2: this earlier death. But he re establishes his practice, and 247 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:56,079 Speaker 2: then two more women patients are poisoned, and someone new 248 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: wrinkle is coming into the cream story. He admits their 249 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 2: patients and he tries to say, but hey, I just 250 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 2: wrote them prescriptions. The druggists must have put in lethal 251 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 2: levels of stryctny. And he's telling the press this openly. 252 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 2: He's making this accusation, and in the background he's trying 253 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 2: to blackmail the Druggists. So this becomes important because Cream 254 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 2: is a killer, but he also becomes a blackmailer, someone 255 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 2: who tries to accuse others of his crimes. So two 256 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 2: more women die within the span of weeks in eighteen 257 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 2: eighty one, and he is in the press talking about it. 258 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 2: He's not accused outright, but there are eyebrows being raised 259 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 2: in the press. What is it with this guy? A 260 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 2: lot of his patients seem to be unfortunate in their 261 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 2: choice of druggists. There are inquests held again open verdicts. 262 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 2: He is not specifically charged. He gets away with two 263 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 2: more murders. 264 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: Help me understand the mind of a poisoner. Stabbing and 265 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: strangling are so intimate. What do poisoners get? What makes 266 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: them satisfied with killing someone via poison? 267 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 2: This is another really gruesome or scary aspect to his story. 268 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 2: As a doctor, he knows exactly what these poisons are 269 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 2: going to do. Strychnine leads to an excruciating death, can 270 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 2: take hours to kill. And through it all, I mean, 271 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 2: the patient doesn't lapse into a coma. The patient goes 272 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 2: through violent seizures and just knows that they're dying. Probably 273 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 2: one of the more gruesome ways to kill people. He 274 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 2: also picks a way of doing it that he doesn't 275 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 2: have to be around. He doesn't have to worry about 276 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 2: an alibi. He seems to be getting a sense that 277 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 2: he can explain away being their doctor. I'll blame someone 278 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 2: else for the poison being in there and say it 279 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 2: wasn't me. But he's able to kill from afar. And 280 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 2: again I get back to this point of this almost 281 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 2: godlike power. I decide who can live and who can die, 282 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 2: and I don't even have to be there. It looks 283 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 2: like he killed his wife. He killed her from across 284 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 2: the Atlantic by sending poison. So he can be tied 285 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 2: to victims because they've been patient or he's prescribed for them, 286 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 2: but he doesn't have to be in the room, and 287 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 2: he doesn't even have to be around. And there's something 288 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 2: about the kind of coldness of that, as you said. 289 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: So in eighteen eighty one, these two women die within 290 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: weeks of each other. Right, this is different because he 291 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: had waited a year before, and then there was a 292 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: year before that. What is happening. It's interesting to go 293 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: from a year span to now within weeks of each other. 294 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 2: I think you're seeing an escalation here. 295 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: And now moving forward, it's eighteen eighty one. He has 296 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: killed two women, but he seems to be above suspicion, 297 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: which I'm assuming only bolsters his self confidence in continuing 298 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: on with whatever whims he has. 299 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 2: Well very soon after these two women die, the authorities 300 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 2: are not able to really tie him or anyone else 301 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 2: to the crimes. The drugists are never really seriously suspected 302 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 2: of being the cause of this. He meets a woman 303 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 2: named Julius Stott from a town a city called Belvidere 304 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 2: near the Wisconsin border, north Chicago, and he is treating 305 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 2: her husband, an older man. At some point they become lovers, 306 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 2: and Cream decides he would like to eliminate his rival, 307 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 2: eliminate her husband, and since he's his patient, he sends 308 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 2: a medicine home with Julia Stott, who comes into the 309 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 2: city Chicago to pick it up and to carry on 310 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 2: her affair with Cream, so she gives him medicine when 311 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 2: she gets back and he dies. It's strict nine and 312 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 2: immediately Cream starts accusing a druggist, demands a post mortem, 313 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 2: which is pretty risky behavior because he's the killer. The 314 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 2: coroner and the district attorney in Belvidere quickly believe that 315 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 2: Cream must be the one responsible. There's an inquest, and 316 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 2: Cream ends up charged and arrested. He actually flees to Canada, 317 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 2: is pursued by the sheriff from Boone County in northern Illinois, 318 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 2: and is caught just over the border in southern Ontario 319 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 2: and brought back for trial. 320 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: So this is how many inquests and accusations since seventy seven. 321 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 2: We're up to six. 322 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: Now, good lord, and he keeps getting out of it. 323 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 2: That's right. One of the fascinating questions I wanted to 324 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 2: ask is how did he get away with it? The 325 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 2: answer is based on the limits of early detection methods, 326 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 2: the undermanning and under training of police forces, the pivotal 327 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 2: role of the coroner who was supposed to be judge, jury, 328 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 2: forensic investigator, all rolled into one being able to detect 329 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 2: strychnine was still new poison. He's brought back to Belvedere, 330 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 2: Illinois to stand trial, and Julia sat testifies against him. Again. 331 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:51,120 Speaker 2: This was his former lover. 332 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: Because she had no idea. She says, right that this 333 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: was going to happen, that's right. 334 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 2: As things turned out, she actually gives the poison to 335 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 2: her husband, so she is very much under suspicion, but 336 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 2: she has a deal with the DA that she'll testify 337 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 2: against Cream again. He had concocted a blackmail's scheme. He 338 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 2: promised her she could sue the druggist for negligence. But 339 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 2: it all unravels in court and Cream ends up convicted 340 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:21,159 Speaker 2: of that murder. He is not sentenced to hang. The 341 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 2: jury recommended that he not face the death penalty, but 342 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 2: he is sentenced to life in prison. 343 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 1: I'm talking with Dean job about his biography of doctor 344 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: Thomas Neil Cream, the Scottish serial killer who murdered from 345 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: Afar using a new type of poison new for the 346 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 1: nineteenth century. Doctor Cream has been convicted of killing his 347 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 1: lover's husband, but he won't face the gallows. Yeah, he's 348 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: a multiple murderer. Why was he not given the death penalty? 349 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: Not that I'm defending it, I'm just saying that just 350 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: seems like a very non nineteenth century thing to do, 351 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: not give somebody the death penalty. 352 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 2: There's some consternation about a decade later that if a 353 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 2: jury had not been so. 354 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: Lenient, Yeah, it would have saved lives. 355 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, the reasons for their verdict were never clear. It 356 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 2: wasn't uncommon for juries to recommend mercy, I mean juries. 357 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 2: At this point in time, they knew what the implications 358 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 2: of a murder conviction were, and life in prison was 359 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 2: supposed to be life in prison. At this point, he 360 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,919 Speaker 2: had been convicted of no other crime. As amazing as 361 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 2: it is, he's now killed his sixth person, but he 362 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 2: has no criminal record. 363 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: So what happens. He is sent off to prison and 364 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: that's the end of the story. 365 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 2: It should have been. He's sent to Joliet Prison and 366 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 2: immediately tries to get out. He petitions the governor of 367 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 2: Illinois for clemency for an early early release. 368 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: What happens when you've been convicted? Can you you appeal? 369 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: Like you can? 370 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 2: Now, that's an interesting point because yes, he could appeal, 371 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 2: but he ran the risk of a death penalty being superposed. 372 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 2: The best he could do is win a new trial, 373 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 2: and another jury might give him the death penalty, So 374 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 2: he did object at the time. What becomes his best 375 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 2: route a lot of other offenders at the time, is 376 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 2: to put pressure on the authorities or lobby for an 377 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 2: earlier release. He claims he's been falsely convicted. About ten 378 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 2: years into his sentence, his family gets on board. One 379 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 2: of the allegations that squirrels around his eventual release in 380 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 2: eighteen ninety one, so he serves about ten years of 381 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 2: this life sentence, is that he bribed his way out 382 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 2: of prison. It would not have been the first time 383 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 2: somebody had successfully done that, and his family privately admit 384 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 2: they spent thousands and thousands of dollars to secure his release. 385 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 2: Now they say it's on lawyers, it's on paperwork. It's 386 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 2: a lot of money, and there is some pretty good evidence. 387 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 2: I think that money changed hands and his sentence was shortened. 388 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 2: In mid eighteen ninety one, he's freed from Joliet. Now 389 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 2: killed six people. He probably can't work as a doctor again, 390 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 2: although he's got all those skills. A madness has developed 391 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 2: in him. He goes home to Quebec City. His family 392 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 2: barely recognize him. He had spent time in solitary confinement 393 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 2: for discipline in Joliet. It was a horrible prison. You know, 394 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 2: think of a nineteenth century prison. 395 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: Conditions draconian. I'm sure it's horrible. 396 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 2: Exactly a silence rule. He couldn't speak to anyone for 397 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 2: hours while he was at work every day. His hatred 398 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 2: of women, his desire to kill only seems to have 399 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: been magnified by this. It's like it festered, because when 400 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 2: he emerges and then visits his family, they think he's 401 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 2: out of control. They think sending him to England, sending 402 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 2: him to London, where he had done some training, where 403 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 2: he knew the city. This turns out to be a 404 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 2: tragic mistake. But he is sent to London and in 405 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 2: the fall of eighteen ninety one takes a room in 406 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 2: a neighborhood called Lambeth, which is directly across from the 407 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 2: Houses of Parliament and on the Thames, that other side 408 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 2: of the Thames River. And this is where he becomes 409 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 2: a killing machine. 410 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: So let's talk briefly about this hatred of women. Because 411 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 1: I've written an awful lot about nineteenth century men and 412 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 1: their hatred of women. It is sometimes hard for me 413 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: to sort out whether this has manifested itself thanks to 414 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 1: personal experience like I hate my mom, or the misogynistic 415 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: times that we see a lot more prevalence of men 416 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 1: hating women in the eighteen hundreds. What do you think. 417 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 2: I think it's both. I think in Cream's case, it's 418 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 2: working at an individual level. He's never put on the 419 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 2: coach and analyzed. There's almost no precedent for someone who 420 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 2: murders for the sake of murder, right, which is what 421 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 2: Cream did. Other than almost all of his victims being 422 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 2: women who either need an abortion or sex workers, there's 423 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 2: no other connection. You know, he doesn't even know them 424 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 2: that well in most cases, or it doesn't seem like 425 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,479 Speaker 2: they've been long term patients or anything like that, so 426 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 2: there's no personal aspect. But where in his psyche this 427 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 2: comes is difficult to say, because even though there's madness 428 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 2: in some of what he does, he never plays the 429 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 2: card of not guilty by reason of insanity. So we're 430 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 2: left with what the evidence shows. Trapped in an early marriage? 431 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 2: Does that trigger it? You mentioned mothers. He was devoted 432 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 2: to his mother, who died when he was still a 433 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 2: young man in his teens. By all accounts, he was 434 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 2: deeply affected. She had a horrible, lingering illness, and there 435 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,360 Speaker 2: seemed to be some feeling that this had marked him 436 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 2: in some way, but also perhaps is why he went 437 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 2: to medical school. What's undeniable is the hatred is there, 438 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 2: and I think it is magnified by society, by the 439 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 2: second class status of women, by the limited legal rights 440 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 2: of women at the time, and just the way women 441 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 2: were treated in Victorian society. I think that plays a 442 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 2: role here as well. 443 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: Is he living off of his family's money because he 444 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:04,719 Speaker 1: is no longer able to practice medicine. 445 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 2: I presume his father actually cut him out of his 446 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 2: will because his father had basically spent so much money 447 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 2: on his defenses. Family friends thought that this stigma, I 448 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 2: mean here was his father, a church going upright man, 449 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 2: really contributed to his early death. Under the will, Cream 450 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 2: was not given any money, but there was provision that 451 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 2: the trustees could help him as they saw hit and 452 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 2: they did give him some money to go to London. 453 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 2: People know he's a doctor and he uses that status 454 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 2: to get access to the poison he needs for his murders. 455 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: What is eighteen ninety one London like post Jack the Ripper? 456 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: Is everyone still waiting for the other shoe to drop 457 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 1: that Jack might come. 458 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 2: Back Jack the Ripper, as you said, at least five 459 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 2: murders within a very short span of the fall of 460 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 2: eighteen eighty eight, which are considered to be the most 461 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 2: likely tied to one person who's become known as Jack 462 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 2: the Ripper. If there was a particularly brutal, bloody murder 463 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 2: of a woman, the headlines would suggest Jack the Ripper 464 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 2: had returned. By the fall of eighteen ninety one, you 465 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 2: think Scotland Yard would be attuned to the idea that 466 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 2: there are new kinds of monsters emerging in Victorian society 467 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,479 Speaker 2: who will kill multiple people for no reason, no motive, 468 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 2: Maybe complacency had set in. I don't know. But what 469 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 2: happens is in the fall of eighteen ninety one he 470 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 2: kills two women with strickney, and the first is thought 471 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 2: to be a suicide. The Scotland Yard files on this 472 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 2: case are voluminous and we're just key to my research. 473 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 2: They conclude she committed suicide, although somebody does do a 474 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 2: notation saying odd though, how did she get a hold 475 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 2: of a controlled poison? Then someone is charged with that 476 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 2: murder not cream and the charges are thrown out. A 477 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 2: few weeks later, a woman dies, but in this case 478 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 2: the death is attributed by the attending physician to natural causes. 479 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,239 Speaker 2: So now he's killed two people in London. He's not 480 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 2: even on anyone's radar. Worse, Scotland Arre don't even realize 481 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 2: two murders have been committed right under their nose. 482 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: So what do we know about these two women? These 483 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: next two victims in ninety one, they. 484 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 2: Were both sex workers in the Lambeth area. One of 485 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 2: them drank from a bottle that a customer or a 486 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 2: man had given her. It was cream and it was 487 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 2: laced with strychnine. So dies a horrible death. A few 488 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 2: weeks later, a woman that he's been a customer of 489 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 2: hers a couple of times. He gives her medicine and 490 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 2: says this will be beneficial. It suggestion that perhaps she 491 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 2: had a sexually transmitted disease and he convinced her this 492 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 2: would help her. Anyway, She takes the medicine after he's 493 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 2: gone and it kills her. That death is attributed to 494 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 2: natural causes. Again, so close to knowing. I mean. They 495 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 2: even had a description of a man in a top 496 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 2: hat said he was a doctor and this is cream. 497 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 2: This is how we looked, and he was a doctor. 498 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 2: He was living a few blocks from these scenes. 499 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: It's so interesting during this time period and even later 500 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 1: in London, the trust that people, particularly women had, and 501 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: men who just say I have medical experience in my 502 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: first book, which was about a serial killer, John Reginald Christy. 503 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: He convinced women to come back to his flat at 504 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: tim Rillington Place by saying only that he had a 505 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 1: certificate in first aid treatment. And he convinced several women 506 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: that he worked with who had breathing problems bronchitis because 507 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 1: of the smog, to come back and I'll give you 508 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: this special breathing treatment, which was a glass jar that 509 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: they would breathe into. And they did not notice that 510 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: the jar was connected to his gas tab and it 511 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: knocked them out, disabled them, and he assaulted them and 512 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: killed them. And you know, Christy literally had the first 513 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: aid certificate hanging on his wall as proof cream would 514 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: even have an office. 515 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 2: One of his victims actually in her death rows going 516 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 2: you know, this horrible death from stre One of the 517 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 2: people attending or landlady said, well, well what happened? I 518 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 2: took this pill from And they had the name Fred, 519 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 2: And so the landlady said, why would you take a 520 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 2: pill from a stranger And she says, well, he wasn't 521 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 2: a stranger, He's a doctor. The level of trust and 522 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 2: we are talking about people in a downtrodden neighborhood, Lambeth 523 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 2: was very much like like Whitechapel. There's a lot of poverty, desperation. 524 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 2: A wealthy looking man who says he's a doctor is unquestioned. 525 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 2: He says, take this medicine. It'll help anything from disease 526 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 2: to In one case it was you know you've got 527 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 2: some spots on your forehead. This will remove them. He 528 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 2: comes up with whatever pretext he wants, but to abuse 529 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 2: and betray that trust. Very much like Christy. It's almost 530 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 2: like he thought he had perfected the perfect crime. I mean, 531 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 2: isn't that what many killers and many criminals look for. 532 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 2: What is the perfect crime? I mean, the perfect crime 533 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 2: is one where I'll get away with it. Well, if 534 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 2: he can find this way of killing from Afar and 535 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 2: his deviousness, He goes to a drug store in London 536 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,959 Speaker 2: that turns out to be just around the corner from 537 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 2: Scotland Yard. He tells him he's a doctor. They look 538 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 2: in what's called the poison book. You're supposed to you 539 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 2: have a list that shows who's an accredited doctor. He's 540 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 2: not there, and they said, well, sign your name here. 541 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 2: They shouldn't have given him strict name they did. He 542 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 2: seems to have taken pleasure from that ability to kill 543 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 2: from a distance because he knows. He knows exactly from 544 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 2: his medical training, what's going to happen to these women. 545 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 2: One woman out smarts him. He thinks she takes the medicine, 546 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 2: she palms it and then drops it in the darkness, 547 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 2: and he doesn't know, And for months he thinks she's 548 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 2: on this list. He even kept a list of the 549 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 2: initials of his victims, and he thinks she's on this list. 550 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: So what happens next? 551 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 2: Part of his pathology seemed to be that he wanted 552 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 2: on some level for people to know about these crimes. 553 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 2: He starts blackmailing. He goes through the newspapers. He sees 554 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 2: the family physician of the royal families in the news 555 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 2: because the royal prince is ill. He accuses this man, 556 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 2: doctor Broadbent, of one of his murders, and he adopts 557 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 2: various aliases. He pretends to be a detective, he pretends 558 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 2: to be a concerned citizen and oddly never follows through. 559 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 2: People get these blackmail notes, They go to Scotland yard, 560 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 2: they say traps are set. He never shows up to 561 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 2: try to get the money. So why was he doing 562 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 2: this because this turns out to be a very fatal flaw, 563 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 2: because some of these letters are written in his very 564 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 2: distinctive handwriting. Scotland Yard again doesn't know what's going on. 565 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 2: They think it's just some kind of prank or hoax. 566 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: So how is he ultimately caught? 567 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 2: On a night in April eighteen ninety two, two young 568 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 2: women die horrible deaths in Lambeth. 569 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: In the same night, same night. 570 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 2: Wow. They live in an adjoining rooms, the same house. So 571 00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 2: now there's a double murder. And initially Scotland Yard it's 572 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 2: tainted salmon because they'd eaten some tin salmon, botulism or 573 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 2: something like this. Very quickly there's an inquest done, an 574 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 2: autopsy and it's determined to be strychnine. So now things 575 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 2: are starting to fall into place. They now have this 576 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 2: reference to a Fred, someone who wears a top hat. 577 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 2: A policeman had actually seen him leaving the house hours before. 578 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 2: He's put out on the streets trying to identify this 579 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 2: shadowy figure. Now they think they've got three. The first 580 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 2: victim who drank strychnine laced liquid, and they discover this 581 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 2: mistake of a woman named Matilda Clover who was thought 582 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 2: to have died of natural causes but had all of 583 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,479 Speaker 2: the hallmarks of a death by strychnine, and they exume 584 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 2: her body and find lethal amounts of strychnine. One of 585 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 2: the tests for strychnine, believe it or not, was the 586 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 2: leading toxicologist in London would put a sample taken from 587 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 2: a murder victim on his and if it burned like 588 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,719 Speaker 2: strychnine burned, then that was a way of verifying. And 589 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 2: then he would inject some of this into a frog 590 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 2: and see if the frog had spasms like strychnine. So 591 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 2: it was very low tech. I just found that fascinating 592 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 2: because it just showed how science was struggling to keep up. 593 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 2: There was actually an arms race between poisoners and forensic 594 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 2: toxicologists at the time. Strychnine was a fairly newly discovered 595 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 2: plant based poison. Arsenic had been the poison of choice 596 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 2: for a long time the nineteenth century mineral based, but 597 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 2: once a reliable test for that came along, these newer 598 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 2: poisons that were being identified and developed became more a 599 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 2: choice of someone like cream because they were hard to detect. 600 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 2: Now they know they've got four murders probably linked to 601 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 2: the same person. And then the constable who had seen 602 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 2: Cream fleeing the scene months before seize him outside of 603 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 2: music hall in Lambeth, sizing up women. And that's when 604 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 2: the police start to realize, okay, this must be our suspect. 605 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 2: Here's another aspect of the case that's baffling in retrospect. 606 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 2: Cream actually starts befriending a couple of policemen in Lambeth. 607 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: Of course he does, Okay. 608 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 2: One of them starts to think it's quite odd that 609 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 2: Cream seems to know so much about these crimes. Yeah, well, Cream, 610 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 2: when challenge says well, I'm a doctor and I read 611 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 2: the British Medical Journal and it's in there and it's 612 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,320 Speaker 2: of interest to me. But that gets a few alarm 613 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 2: bells ringing. He actually is invited to sit down with 614 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 2: the investigating officers with this intermediary of this detective he's met. 615 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,760 Speaker 2: They sit down in a pub and the two investigators 616 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 2: and this was hard to believe, but later they say, well, yeah, 617 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,800 Speaker 2: he kind of looks like the guy he's probably picked 618 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 2: up the gossip. Yes, he consorts with sex workers all 619 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 2: the time. That's not a crime, and we don't think 620 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,280 Speaker 2: it's the guy. And what really finally turns it around 621 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 2: is a very clever detective named John at Tunbridge. He 622 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,320 Speaker 2: reviews everything. He says, exactly what you said. Wait a minute, 623 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 2: Fred top Hat. Doctor Cream had a condition that caused 624 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 2: his eyes to cross. He had to wear very thick spectacles. 625 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 2: This was described by victims and witnesses as an attribute 626 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 2: of this man they were seeking. Tunbridge reviews. The file 627 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,800 Speaker 2: writes a twenty page handwritten memo and the bottom line 628 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 2: is I'm convinced this is the guy. So at that 629 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 2: point they start targeting Cream. They get a sample of 630 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 2: his handwriting. Now they start finding letters. It all starts 631 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 2: to unravel pretty quickly. And this is almost too Hollywood 632 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 2: to believe. But the woman I mentioned who outwitted him 633 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 2: and he thought he had poisoned a woman named lou Harvey. 634 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 2: She was another sex worker. She reads in the paper 635 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 2: about Cream's inquest on how he is charged with one 636 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 2: of the murders, and she realizes that guy. So she 637 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 2: sends a letter to the coroner and to the police 638 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,479 Speaker 2: and says much alive, and I'm willing to testify. Wow, 639 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 2: there's a dramatic scene where and I don't think Cream 640 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 2: knew this. I don't think Cream knew she'd survived. She 641 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 2: walks into the courtroom to nail them, and it's just 642 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 2: fantastic and she does to scon and Jared thought the 643 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 2: women were unreliable. Well, one of those women was instrumental 644 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:21,280 Speaker 2: in his conviction. 645 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 1: So he's convicted. Yes, is he in denial that he's 646 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: been convicted and then given the death penalty? 647 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 2: He doesn't seem to have realized he does by the end. 648 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,479 Speaker 1: So what happens with Cream when the punishment is carried out? 649 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: Something controversial. 650 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a strange afterlife of doctor Cream. If you 651 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 2: look at many many lists over the year's lists of 652 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 2: suspects who could have been Jack the Ripper, oddly a 653 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 2: Canadian doctor named Thomas Neil Cream pops up. And this 654 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 2: is because he's purported to have said, just before the 655 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,399 Speaker 2: trap door was sprung, I am Jack. And then he's 656 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 2: cut off naturally mid sentence. Here's the strange part of this. 657 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 2: This supposedly happens in eighteen ninety two when he's executed. 658 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 2: Worries crimes like Jack the Ripper. I mean, the idea 659 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,799 Speaker 2: being that he was about to confess to being Jack 660 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 2: the Ripper. Well, he had an ironclad alibi. He was 661 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 2: in Jolly at prison yep, so he could not have 662 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,880 Speaker 2: done it. So I researched this. I wanted to understand 663 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 2: where did this come from. About a decade after his 664 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,839 Speaker 2: hanging in nineteen oh two, some news accounts started to 665 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 2: surface in some newspapers in the United States and in 666 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 2: Britain that he had made this gallows confession. Well, conveniently 667 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 2: it was after the hangman who supposedly had heard it 668 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 2: had died, so there was no corroboration. And this caused 669 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 2: a little bit of his splash and was forgotten, And 670 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 2: then decades later it was resurrected in stories about strange hangings. 671 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 2: It started to then take on traction, leading to this 672 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,719 Speaker 2: absolutely bizarre idea that he could have been Jack the 673 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 2: Ripper and was infesting to the crime. I mean, there's 674 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 2: no doubt about it. He wasn't there. And the press 675 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 2: at the time of his execution talked about how he 676 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 2: was like Jack the Ripper, but that's as far as 677 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 2: it went. Because there was some resonance. No one at 678 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,319 Speaker 2: the time seriously even suggested that he could have been. 679 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 2: And I am glad to see that more recent roundups, 680 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 2: either in the press or in books of who might 681 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 2: the ripper have been? Doctor Cream tends to have disappeared 682 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,760 Speaker 2: from those lists. And I think, quite rightly, what are. 683 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 1: The lessons learned from this story? Why would this resonate 684 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 1: with an audience today? 685 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 2: The idea of trust and the idea of vulnerability. I 686 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 2: think it's still difficult, even in our jaded times, to 687 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 2: fathom this kind of depravity, this kind of hatred, and 688 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 2: this kind of brutality is wrapped up in someone who 689 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 2: should have been beyond approach. But it's such an interesting 690 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:57,359 Speaker 2: look at the Victorian era, the way morality, the stifling morality, 691 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 2: forced women into his clutch. Yeah, and how he benefited 692 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 2: from this misplaced total trust in the profession. 693 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words. 694 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 3: One of Remas's bootlegger friends in Atlanta pulled him aside 695 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 3: at one of their fancy dinners and says, look, you're 696 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 3: not going to like this, but I'm hearing things that 697 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,440 Speaker 3: I really felt compelled to tell you and Remus and 698 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 3: Verse is in denial and reacts very strongly and actually 699 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 3: hits the guy, hits his fellow bootlegger men, apologizes and 700 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 3: starts realizing this terrible thing might actually be happening to him. 701 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my 702 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death In the year this has 703 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold more Media Production. Alexis and 704 00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,840 Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer, Andrew Epan is our sound designer. 705 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,919 Speaker 1: Ella Middleton is a researcher for us. Curtis Heath does 706 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,240 Speaker 1: the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and Ilsa Brink 707 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,959 Speaker 1: designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen 708 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. 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