1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: Campsite media. Let's pick up with when you came back. 2 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:10,120 Speaker 1: Who's still in the. 3 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 2: Area when I went back to Jackson as a trooper. Yeah, yeah, 4 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 2: So when I got back down there as a trooper, 5 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 2: I mean, it's everybody. Most people don't leave that area 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 2: for whatever reason. I always describe it as it's like 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 2: a bucket of crabs, you know, just as the crab 8 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 2: is almost out of the bucket, you get somebody that 9 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 2: pulls you right back in. So when I go back home, 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 2: essentially it's all my family, most of my friends, people 11 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 2: I grew up with are generally still in that area. 12 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 1: Spring of two thousand, after almost eight years away, Gayboard 13 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: Tees trooper Gayboard Tees is going back to Brazoria County 14 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: with a badge. It's going to get awkward. 15 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 2: I have a lot of family down there that are 16 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 2: not upstanding citizens, and I have a brother who has 17 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 2: a reputation for himself, And there was a possibility where 18 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:14,119 Speaker 2: I was going to encounter some family members during those 19 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 2: traffic stops. 20 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: Oh, that was more than a possibility, it was damn 21 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 1: near certainty. In fact, very early on, when Gabe was 22 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,479 Speaker 1: still riding with his training officer, local police stop someone 23 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: who had outstanding warrants with the Department of Public Safety. 24 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: State troopers who work for DPS are responsible for arresting 25 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:31,279 Speaker 1: those people. 26 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,199 Speaker 2: And I remember Lake Jackson Police Department called and says 27 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 2: we've got somebody on a traffic stop who has DPS warrants. 28 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: And I show up and I see it's my uncle 29 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 2: and he says, oh, hey me, I was hoping it 30 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 2: was you. And my field training officer looks at me like, 31 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 2: what are you going to do? And I'm gonna do 32 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 2: what I was trained to do, and I like say, hey, uncle, sorry, 33 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 2: I gotta do this. He was very proud of me 34 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 2: when I graduated from the DPS Academy and became a trooper. 35 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 2: So he put his hands behind his back and he's like, hey, Neil, 36 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 2: if you're just doing your job, don't worry about me. 37 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 2: We'll be fine. 38 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: From Campside Media and iHeart podcasts. This is The Brothers 39 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 1: or Tees episode four Homecoming. I'm Sean Flynn. 40 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 3: Gabe would come around and he has his stance about him, 41 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 3: his personality. 42 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 1: This is Vanessa Orties. She's one of the many to 43 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: his cousins in Brassoria County and she was especially close 44 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: to Gabe's brother Larry. 45 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 3: We used to be like, oh God, he's here to 46 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 3: kill the fun. He was wound up really tight and 47 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 3: I'm like, God, let up relax a little bit. He 48 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 3: was just always in cop mode. 49 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: Of course, Gabe was always in cop mode. Most cops 50 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: are always in cop mode. It's a cop thing. And 51 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: Gabe really liked being a cop. 52 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 2: I'm like, hey, this is it. I've reached the pinnacle 53 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 2: being at Texas DPS state trooper. You know, we're looked 54 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 2: at as one of the elite law enforcement agencies. It's 55 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 2: very very revered. 56 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: Well not by everybody. And this is the fundamental tension 57 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: in Gabe's homecoming, the tension really in this entire story. 58 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: Two brothers who were once very close now have a 59 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: seemingly impermeable barrier between them, a thick blue line, if 60 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: you will. The drama, the potential for conflict and tragedy 61 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: is almost too obvious. Like in overwritten movie script. 62 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 4: I number that Gabe when he'd be coming home, it 63 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 4: was going to be stay trooper, part of the law, 64 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 4: you know, keeping law, and and and Larry breaking law. 65 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: This is Gloria, their mom. 66 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 4: I would even tell Larry I says, you know, your 67 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 4: brother is a stay trooper and you're over here messing 68 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 4: up Gabe. Larry, you need to slow down. You really 69 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 4: need to slow down because things are starting to get bad. 70 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 2: What would you say? 71 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 4: He to say, Oh, Mom, you just worry too much. 72 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 4: You just ain't nothing gonna happen. I'm gonna be fine. 73 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 4: He thought he was never gonna. 74 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 2: Get caught, but he got caught a lot. 75 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, but every time he thought he was never gonna 76 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 4: get caught again, so he was constantly just taking that chance. 77 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: Okay, spoiler alert. Larry was never caught by Gabe, mainly 78 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: because Gabe's job wasn't to invest tokap drug dealers. He 79 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,799 Speaker 1: was patrolling the highway. More importantly, he didn't know exactly 80 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,239 Speaker 1: what Larry was up to, which was by design. 81 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 2: I mean, I obviously knew that he was involved in 82 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: drug dealing. Clearly he had done that in front of 83 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 2: me several years before, and I knew he had a reputation. 84 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: But anytime I would have my conversation with my brother, 85 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 2: it was, yeah, I'm not doing that anymore, you know. 86 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 2: And he would work legitimate jobs off and on. 87 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: Larry worked a lot of legal jobs We talked to 88 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: one of his old bosses, and he had nothing but 89 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 1: good things to say, industrious, diligent, dedicated. But those jobs 90 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: were off and on because Larry kept getting arrested. 91 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 2: There's a time period where he was locked up so 92 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 2: much that you kind of just lose track of when 93 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 2: he was in jail and when he was out. 94 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: So Gabe, the eager rookie cop, kept some distance between 95 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: him and his sweet yet lawbreaking brother. 96 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,119 Speaker 2: Honestly, at the time, I don't know that I ever 97 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 2: hung out with my brother, just he and I. It 98 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 2: was always at a family gathering where I would see 99 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 2: my brother. It was at a barbecue, it was at 100 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 2: a king set, I was at somebody's birthday, Easter, some 101 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 2: occasion where the family was getting together, but never just 102 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 2: my brother or not because I knew what he was 103 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 2: involved in, and so I always wanted to have that separation. 104 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: His cousin, Vanessa, just to close this loop, would eventually 105 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: come to understand this. She and Gabe would make their peace. 106 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 3: We spent some time together, and he has played well. 107 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 3: You know, Larry used to hang around some like suspect people. 108 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 3: He's like, I got shit to lose. Well, duh, Now, 109 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 3: I get it, so I've apologized to him, like, man, 110 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 3: my bad, I'm like you all right. 111 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: Despite those family complications, Gabe loves what he's doing when 112 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: he checks ten forty one. That's what droopers say when 113 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: they come on duty. He's excited. He's got a fresh 114 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: shift ahead of him, a clean slate. He's not his 115 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: own boss. Rookie troopers actually at the bottom of the 116 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: pecking order, but he has a lot of autonomy. He 117 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: can roam the whole southern half of Bassouria County. He 118 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: can park his big Crown Victoria on the side of 119 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: the road and the clock speeders he gets drunks and 120 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: reckless drivers off the road. Yes, it's still occasionally awkward. 121 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: Because Gabe grew up in the southern half of Missouria County. 122 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 2: I stopped the occasional family member or you know, a 123 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 2: friend I grew up with in high school. I ended 124 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 2: up taking a couple of those guys to jail, you know, 125 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 2: for DWI. And that's always difficult to do. 126 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: And while he's mostly working traffic enforcement, stopping someone for say, 127 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: weaving or failure to use a turn signal can every 128 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: so often lead to other types of crime, mostly drug related. 129 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 2: You know, some user amount stuff, and I think I 130 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 2: got a couple of pounds one time got a keylo 131 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 2: cocaine out of a stop. 132 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: And then he had the big one. There's a box fan, 133 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: a small cargo truck coming out of Freeport, speeding north 134 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: on Highway two. 135 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 4: Eighty eight. 136 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: Troopers were encouraged to stop commercial vehicles like a box 137 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: fan for any reasonable infraction because accidents involving trucks generally 138 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: caused more damage and more injuries and death than your 139 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: standard sedan. So the idea is to keep truck drivers 140 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: on their toes. Gave flips on the cruiser lights and 141 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: pulls over the box van for speeding. 142 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 2: The driver spoke in very broken English, and there was 143 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 2: no markings on the vehicle. He said it was coming 144 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 2: from Freeport and he was going to Houston, and that 145 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 2: he had just delivered some pignatas at the Kruger grocery store. 146 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 2: I asked him for his manifest or you know, some 147 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 2: documentation to verify his load, and he's going through the 148 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 2: glove box and he's got nothing, I mean, absolutely no 149 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 2: paperwork whatsoever. So I asked him, like, hey, can you 150 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: can you open the vehicles so we can verify your load. 151 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 2: And his shoulders just dropped. He you know, put put 152 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 2: his head down as soon as he opened it. You know, 153 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 2: the the odor of marijuana just hit us in the face. 154 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 2: It was bundles and bundles of marijuana and ended up 155 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 2: being about twenty nine hundred pounds, just over twenty nine 156 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 2: hundred pounds, and behind all of the bundles there was 157 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 2: three piatas back there that was you know, he's being 158 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 2: a little honest, I guess. And so the next day 159 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 2: on the front page of the Brass Sport Facts was 160 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 2: me and my partner standing next to twenty nine hundred 161 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 2: pounds of marijuana bundles with a SpongeBob natta. 162 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: It was actually two six hundred and ninety five pounds 163 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: of wheat, which is still a lot of wheed. When 164 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: you're making a drugstop, does it ever cross your mind that, well, 165 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:16,719 Speaker 1: it's the same shit my brother's doing. 166 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 2: Well, you know, there was a couple of times where 167 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:28,959 Speaker 2: I stopped some guys that were really close friends and 168 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 2: my brother and would smell marijuana, and that gave me 169 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 2: probable cause and I'm like, hey, guys, I got to 170 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 2: search vehicle and y'all have anything on you, and I 171 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 2: wouldn't never find anything. But I knew that these guys 172 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 2: were running around my brother and that you know, they 173 00:10:53,720 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 2: were probably all involved in the same thing. 174 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: One thing I asked, gave about several times because I 175 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: find it so baffling, was why his superiors thought Brazoria 176 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: County was a good place to put him. He grew 177 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 1: up there and he knows the lay of the land 178 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: that local customs, and I suppose that counts for something. 179 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: But his only brother is known to be involved in drugs, 180 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: and not as a recreational user. Also, Larry wasn't the 181 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: only Ortiz tangled up in the drug trade. There was 182 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: an uncle too. Officers from the Department of Public Safety 183 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: were investigating a smuggling operation that led them to a 184 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: house in a rural part of the county. 185 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 2: They were smuggling hundreds thousands of pounds in marijuana, and 186 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 2: my uncle he showed up during the investigation to the house, 187 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 2: and we believe he was there to pick up one 188 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 2: of the trucks and drive the trucks, which makes sense 189 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 2: because a few years later he drives a grain hauler 190 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 2: through a border patrol checkpoint. 191 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: A grainhuler loaded with five tons of weed. 192 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 2: Well, what he immediately tells these narcotics agents is, oh, 193 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 2: your DPS, my nephew is a state trooper. You guys 194 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 2: probably know him. It's his name is gab Ortiz. And 195 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 2: so that raised a red flag with some of the 196 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 2: folks in narcotics. 197 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that would Those flags were quickly lowered. 198 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 2: I remember this particular trooper said, Gabe, no way, he's honest, man, 199 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 2: This guy's got a lot of integrity. 200 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: No matter how many times I asked him, Gabe never 201 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: had a sensible answer, or any answer or really other 202 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: than that. Uncle. Notwithstanding, it was never an issue because 203 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 1: both of them, Gabe and Larry, made sure it wasn't. 204 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 2: I remember being told that he was being investigated or 205 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 2: he was being looked at by certain agencies down there 206 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 2: for distribution or you know, manufacturing. When they're telling me 207 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 2: these things, obviously it's not what I want to hear. 208 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 2: I was hoping that my brother would get out of 209 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 2: the game completely. But I was keenly aware of what 210 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 2: he was involved in, and so I made it very 211 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 2: clear to the agencies that I worked with that hey, 212 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 2: I understand it. I'm a state trooper. And that's my brother. 213 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 2: And this goes for any of my family. If somebody's 214 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 2: violating the law, then I fully expect law enforcement to 215 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 2: do their jobs. If any of our family members or 216 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 2: my brothers is committing some type of crime, then you 217 00:13:59,360 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 2: got to pay for it. 218 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: And as for Larry, he respected his brother, he respected 219 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: his job. 220 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 2: Not ever did he ever ask me to, you know, 221 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 2: let him know if I'm ever being investigated or he 222 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 2: did ask for a few favors, and I actually did 223 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 2: give into one favor at one point, but it was 224 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 2: the only the only time that I ever helped him out. 225 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: It was a big one too. As a general practice, 226 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: when people are first convicted of a crime, especially young 227 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: people and especially non violent crimes, they are not immediately 228 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: locked up. Murderers, rapists, those sorts, yeah they're going to 229 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: go to prison. But a young adult picked up for 230 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: SAE possession or trespassing, that person is going to get 231 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: a few chances to reform, to straighten up and fly right. 232 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 2: The first time you get probation, you know, second time, 233 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 2: they send you to a substance abuse treatment center or 234 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 2: you know, boot camp or something similar. 235 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: Larry ran out of chances. 236 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 2: He had have been arrested numerous times by this point, 237 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 2: so he'd been through all those. 238 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: In October two thousand and one, he was picked up 239 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: for a possession of a controlled substance drugs with intent 240 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: to distribute. In addition to that being illegal, it was 241 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: also a violation of his probation, which he'd been on 242 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: for a burglary seven years earlier. 243 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 2: And so this was a time where he finally was 244 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 2: getting sentenced. 245 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 1: A judge gave him five years in the Texas Department 246 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: of Corrections big boy prison. He spent the time after 247 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: he was arrested in before he was sentenced, in the 248 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: Bresouria County jail. His bail was set at eighty thousand dollars, 249 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: which he had no hope of paying. Gabe said that 250 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: it was during that stretch between the arrest and prison 251 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: that Larry asked him for the favor. 252 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 2: He says, hey, bro, I know that the sheriff has 253 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: the authority to allow somebody to fail their state prison 254 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 2: time out of the county. 255 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: In other words, instead of spending five years in a big, 256 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: violent prison, Larry wanted to do his time in the 257 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: familiar county jail, where he was relatively comfortable. 258 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 2: Everybody knew him, you know, very charismatic personality. Everybody liked him. 259 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 2: In the jail. The officer so I remember, he asked 260 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 2: me if there was any way that I could talk 261 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 2: to the sheriff, And so I talked to the sheriff 262 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 2: in Sheriff King's old school country guy, and he said, oh, yeah, Gabe, 263 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 2: we can definitely help him out. He said, I don't 264 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 2: mind that he's been good to us, and he's well respected, 265 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 2: you know, he respects all the staff, and so you, 266 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 2: being his brother, he said, I don't mind doing that 267 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 2: for you. 268 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: As it turns out, in order to be transferred back 269 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: to a county jail to finish a sentence, and then 270 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: mat first has to leave that jail and physically go 271 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: to prison, go through the whole intake process to a 272 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: fishhouly become a prisoner of the state of Texas. 273 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 2: They call it catching the chain, and he catches chain 274 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 2: and goes to one of the state prisons. While he's there, 275 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 2: he sees some of his friends from the neighborhood, which 276 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 2: are predominantly black, and brother used to run around with 277 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 2: the crips outside of prison. Well in the state prison system, 278 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 2: if you're not black, you can't be a crip. So 279 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 2: that doesn't fly. 280 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: Prison gangs are almost exclusively based on race. Some of 281 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 1: them are just flat out racist, Area Nations, Nazi low riders. 282 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: The names give them away. The rest are more defined 283 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: by race, Black, Latino, Asian, Mexican, and sometimes more finer 284 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: parsing within those broad categories. Now, to the average person 285 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: with a kind heart and hope for humanity, this self 286 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: segregation is distressing, this sort of thing we as a 287 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,719 Speaker 1: society are supposed to rise above. That average person, however, 288 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 1: is not doing time in a maximum security prison. There 289 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: are strength in numbers, there's protection in numbers, and the 290 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 1: most efficient way to organize people into recognizable groups with 291 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: significant numbers is by race. And here comes Larry Mexican American, 292 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: Larry new Guy talking to black inmates. 293 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 2: He called those his homeboys. You know, those are his 294 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 2: boys from the street, guys he used to run around with, 295 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 2: probably sling dope with. And he didn't see anything wrong 296 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 2: with that. But obviously what he didn't know that rules 297 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 2: of prison were you get a run around with your 298 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 2: own kind. And so the Texas Syndicate or Mexican Mafia, 299 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 2: when they saw him running around with black inmates, basically 300 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 2: charged him up and told him that hey, home, that 301 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 2: don't fly in here. We don't know what you think 302 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 2: you're doing, but you better make a decision. You want 303 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 2: to run with us or suffer the consequences. 304 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: What would the consequences. 305 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 2: If he would have been severely beaten, severely beaten and 306 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 2: if not raped or both at that point, he'd have 307 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 2: been somebody's pitch really in prison. I mean, that's a 308 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 2: bottom line. If you go against any one of those 309 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 2: organizations and they're giving you an ultimatum, then I mean, 310 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 2: you're going to be beaten and raped or like I said, 311 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 2: or both. And they basically give him twenty four hours 312 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 2: to make a decision. 313 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: In the middle of the night, the guards wake up Larry, 314 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: they tell him to pack up. 315 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 2: He's like, what's what's going on, and they're like, we're 316 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:22,719 Speaker 2: transporting you back to Brazori County Jail. And so essentially 317 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 2: he told me, he's like, you saved my life because 318 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 2: I didn't know what I was going to do. 319 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: Larry did the rest of his time in the Brazoria 320 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: County Jail home. Basically where Gabe says, the jailers and 321 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: deputies all liked him. Gabe was still in the county too. 322 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: He still loves being a cop, and yeah it's mostly 323 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: traffic stops, but he's ganning a tremendous amount of experience. 324 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 2: You know, the Sheriff's office got a call for service 325 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,959 Speaker 2: that was a domestic or family violence, if they were 326 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 2: getting ready to execute a warrant and they needed perimeter support, 327 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 2: we would back them up. 328 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 1: Gabe was on the Civil Disturbance Management Team, a very 329 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: polite way of saying riot squad. He learned accident reconstruction, 330 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: how to reverse engineer skid marks and wreckage into a 331 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 1: viable picture of why there was skid marks and wreckage. 332 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 2: Was also a drug recognition expert, so anytime somebody was 333 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 2: under the influence of something other than alcohol, they would, 334 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 2: you know, somebody would call us to do an evaluation 335 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 2: and determine, you know, what type of drug that may 336 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,239 Speaker 2: be under the influence of. So I did a lot 337 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 2: of different things besides, you know, the typical traffic enforcement. 338 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: He's ambitious, he wants to move up. He's gotten a 339 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: taste of big time crime fighting. Hell, he's gotten his 340 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: picture in the paper with a SpongeBob Pinatta in two 341 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: six hundred and ninety five pounds of weed, and after 342 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 1: four years he was eligible to test for promotions. He 343 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: took two one for narcotics and the other for what's 344 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: called special crimes. He passed both. 345 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 2: I actually preferred going into special crimes because we weren't 346 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 2: just limited to working narcotics investigations. We could also work investigations. 347 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 2: We had personnel that were assigned to the US Marshall's 348 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 2: Task Force on Special Crimes. We worked sex offender compliance. 349 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 2: There was a lot of racing investigations, course track, dog tracks, 350 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 2: the whole gamut, so there wasn't anything that we were 351 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 2: restricted from working. 352 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: November two thousand and four, game Is promoted to sergeant 353 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 1: investigator in the Special Crimes Division of the Texas Department 354 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 1: of Public Safety. 355 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,360 Speaker 2: After I knew I made the list for special crimes, 356 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 2: the commander calls me and offers me a position in 357 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 2: El Paso. 358 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: El Paso is in the southwest corner of the state, 359 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: about eight hundred miles from Missouria County, and I. 360 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 2: Was really hoping that there was going to be some 361 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 2: other options besides El Paso. 362 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 1: There were no other options. 363 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 2: So called my wife after and she says, where are 364 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 2: we going? And I told her ol Paso, and she 365 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 2: really thought I was joking. She's like, no, really, where 366 00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 2: are we going. Neither of us had ever been to 367 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 2: l pass so no family ties, we didn't know a 368 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 2: single person at all, and it was twelve hours away 369 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 2: from Lake Jackson, and so we knew that going ol 370 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 2: Passo was, you know, essentially going to keep us from 371 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 2: regular visits with the family. And the family functioned so 372 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 2: not to mention, it was a culture shock going to 373 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 2: ol Paso, just because of the Spanish being so different, 374 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 2: and the food is different, you know, everything is really 375 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 2: really different about Passo, and some of the other started 376 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 2: investigators made it sound like it was a horrible place 377 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 2: to go. I even told my wife, I will go 378 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 2: by myself, and I'm pretty sure i can transfer back 379 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 2: to Texas, I jokingly said, or somewhere close, and you know, 380 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 2: we don't all have to move and I'll be back 381 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 2: with a few months. And she says, no, baby, I 382 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 2: really believe this was meant to be and we're going 383 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 2: to go out there as a family, and we all 384 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 2: decided to back up and move to Opasso. 385 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: The supposedly good thing about Opasso for a DPS sergeant 386 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,360 Speaker 1: is that one can transfer out after a year or two, 387 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: which is what Gabe expected to do. But his opportunity 388 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: came too soon. 389 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 2: And sure enough, a month later, a vacancy posted in 390 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 2: San Antonio. But I didn't make much money as a trooper, 391 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 2: and we were in no position to move anywhere and 392 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 2: pay for a move on our own, and so we 393 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 2: just decided to stick it out and stay in Opasso 394 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 2: for a number of years. 395 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: Those few years turned into eight eight years, basically as 396 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: far away from Brazoria County as you can get and 397 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: still be in the state of Texas. Gab and his 398 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: family were there for so long that his brother Larry, 399 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: finished that five year sentence in the county of jail, 400 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: got out, did some more illegal stuff, and went to 401 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: prison again. But this time he would do the whole 402 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 1: stretch in a real prison without his brother there to 403 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,959 Speaker 1: help him out. Larry would have to figure out how 404 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: to navigate those prison gangs, and oddly enough, so Agabe. 405 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 1: That became his next area of expertise, gangs. That's next time, 406 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: I'm the brothers Ortiz. Later this season, we're going to 407 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 1: take a closer look at prison gangs. To better understand 408 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: what Larry would have had to navigate if he hadn't 409 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: been sent back to the county jail. I spoke with 410 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,360 Speaker 1: Mike Tapia, a sociologist at Texas A and m COMMERCE 411 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,439 Speaker 1: who's been studying gangs for more than a decade. He 412 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 1: walked us through the evolution of prison gangs, how they began, 413 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 1: and where they're going, and why it's hard to run 414 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: a prison without them. Here's a preview. 415 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 5: It's as important to note the structure of the prison itself, 416 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 5: how Texas in particular managed, you know, this large group 417 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 5: of unruly men, and the system that they devised. It's 418 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 5: a crappy job to be a correctional officer. The standards 419 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 5: are pretty low to get in, the pay sucks, and 420 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 5: it's a thankless job. It's a be a very dangerous position. 421 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 5: And so one way to control populations in prison is 422 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 5: to let them police themselves. And sort of sort of 423 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 5: a social Darwinism kicks in, and so those that emerge 424 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 5: as leaders, as charismatic, as strong physically and intimidating get 425 00:26:54,640 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 5: some responsibility. They're offered responsibility to sort of manage help 426 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 5: the guards man and wardens, and so forth manage populations 427 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 5: and keep people in line. And so it's it harkens 428 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 5: back to that age old question who runs the joint? 429 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 5: You know, And if you ask prisoners, they'll give you 430 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 5: one version, and if you ask administration, they'll give you another. 431 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 4: Right. 432 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:23,360 Speaker 5: So the State Supreme Court of Texas made that practice illegal, 433 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 5: and so they told prisons prison administrators, you can't keep 434 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 5: letting inmates police their own kind. 435 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:34,719 Speaker 4: You know. 436 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 5: It's called the turnkey system. And these guys had keys, 437 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,199 Speaker 5: you know, they had access to different parts of the 438 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 5: prison and everything. So they were, for all practical purposes, 439 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 5: unpaid employees, you know, of the prison who got certain benefits. 440 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 1: So when did this turnkey system start? 441 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 5: Oh, I'd say that it's probably always been there. It 442 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 5: seems like just to be part of the nature of 443 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 5: the beast of locking people up. I mean, it's it's 444 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:07,959 Speaker 5: almost impossible to diminish it or make it obsolete, you know, 445 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 5: just because of the very nature of being locked up 446 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 5: with other individuals, some strong leader will emerge. Now they 447 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 5: call it a pod dog, right, and so that's a 448 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 5: big part of how and why these groups form, you know, 449 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 5: just political you know, microcosms in the penitentiary. 450 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 1: Actually, so you covered my next question. Despite whatever the 451 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 1: Texas Supreme Court might have ruled, is it even possible 452 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: to make the system go away? 453 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 4: No? 454 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 5: I mean they also ruled that it's illegal to group 455 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 5: inmates on the basis of race. But there again, you know, 456 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 5: for Hamopheli's sake, that will never go away, and that 457 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 5: is another strong basis that I should and leave that out. 458 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 5: I would even say that probably is one of the 459 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 5: primary reasons that prison gangs did form. Also is for 460 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 5: self protection and preservation for racial conflict reasons, you know, 461 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 5: blacks against whites against Mexicans, essentially in Texas prisons. 462 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: The brothers Ortiz is a production from Campsite Media in 463 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:40,719 Speaker 1: partnership with iHeart Podcasts. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 464 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. The brothers Ortiz was written, reported, 465 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,719 Speaker 1: and hosted by me Sean Flynn. Lane Rose is our 466 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: senior producer. Story editing by Audrey Quinn, sound design, mix 467 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: and engineering by Garrett Tiedeman, original music by Garrett Tiedeman. 468 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: The fact checking by Savannah Wright. iHeart Podcasts executive producers 469 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: are Lindsay Hoffman and Jennifer Bassett. Campside Media's executive producers 470 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: are Josh Deen, Vanessa Grigoriatis, Adam Hoff, and Matt Cher. 471 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: A special thanks to our operations team Doug Laywyn, Ashley 472 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: Warren and Sabina Mara. If you enjoyed The Brothers Orties, 473 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts, 474 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: and thanks for listening.