1 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin throughout his life would sign his name B. Franklin, 2 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: Comma printer. He'd believed that being a leather agran, meaning 3 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: somebody who owned a shop opened up in the morning, 4 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: served people, that was the heart of who we were 5 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: going to be as a nation. As a young printer, 6 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,919 Speaker 1: he had composed partly as a joke, an epithet that 7 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: he thought could be used for himself. 8 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 2: And it said, the body of B. 9 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: Franklin Printer like the cover of an old book, its 10 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: contents worn out and stripped of its lettering and gilding. 11 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: Lies here for food for worms. But the book shall 12 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: not be lost, for it will appear once more in 13 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: a new and more elegant addition, revived and corrected by 14 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: his author. It's a totally wonderful thing, a pilgrim making 15 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: progress and the hands of a benevolent god. But of 16 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: course Franklin was a simple person. Just before he died, 17 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: he made something simpler that would be placed over his grave. 18 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: There would just be a plain tombstone with the inscription 19 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: Benjamin and Deborah Franklin. 20 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 2: Benjamin Franklin lived a life for the ages. He died 21 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 2: at eighty four years old after what was a magnificently 22 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 2: long life for his time, and in those years he 23 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 2: lived at least five lives as a scientist, a writer, 24 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 2: a businessman, a diplomat, and finally as a founder and 25 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 2: framer of the United States. But how can we understand 26 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 2: Franklin's legacy? How did you think about the wrongs he 27 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 2: had made over a lifetime, and how did this moral 28 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 2: evolution and the progression of his beliefs get woven into 29 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 2: America's own moral fabric. In this final episode, Walter Isaacson 30 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 2: details how Franklin's late in life actions, from ceding a 31 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 2: nomination to a younger candidate to embracing abolition, defined both 32 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 2: him and his newborn country. 33 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: When George Washington arrives for the Constitutional Convention, one of 34 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: the first things he does is he has a dinner 35 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: at Franklin's house. They brag out casks of ale. Franklin 36 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: has built this new house on Market Street in Philadelphia, 37 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: and Franklin would make this grand and every day to 38 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: the Constitutional Convention. Because he has gout and he has 39 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: trouble walking, they carry Franklin the few blocks from Market 40 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,839 Speaker 1: Street to what we now call Independence Hall on sort 41 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: of a chair carried by four prisoners from the jail. 42 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: The only other person who could have possibly been the 43 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: president of the Convention and thus likely to be the 44 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: first president besides Washington would have been Benjamin Franklin. But 45 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 1: he's pushing eighty then, and as we know today, that's 46 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: a bit old to be president, maybe, and so he 47 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: asks for permission to be the one who nominates Washington. 48 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: The fundamental thing to understand about the Constitutional Convention was 49 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: that they'd gotten it wrong the first time around the 50 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: Articles of Confederation, and they hadn't created really a central government. 51 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: It was just thirteen different states that were confederated with 52 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: each other but not doing well, and so they couldn't 53 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: do things like figure out tariff so tray that easily. 54 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: And they have to go back to the idea that 55 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin originally proposed in the seventeen fifties, the Albany 56 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: Plan of Union, where you have a central government with 57 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: a congress that can do taxation. So what they end 58 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: up at the Constitutional Convention is something that Franklin had 59 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: pretty much proposed thirty years earlier, which is a federal 60 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: system of government. 61 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 2: And so they're still leaning on his ideas but how 62 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 2: was he viewed at the time. 63 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 1: He's the wise person who comes in, but to be honest, 64 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: he's a little bit doddering. He tells long stories. At 65 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: the convention. He makes proposals sometimes that people can't quite 66 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: figure out is he totally serious about that. Famously, he 67 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: makes a proposal that they should open with prayers each day, 68 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: which was somewhat unusual because Franklin wasn't all that religious. 69 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: He was a deist to believe that the Creator, but 70 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: not a god who intervened in our affairs. And yet 71 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: in that speech he uses a phrase from the Bible. 72 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: If a sparrow can't fall without the Good Lord knowing, 73 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: then how can an empire arise? 74 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 2: And I think it was. 75 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: Mainly because he wanted to push a little bit of humility. 76 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: We all had to keep in mind that there were 77 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: powers greater than ourselves, and so even though he wasn't 78 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: always taken that seriously, I think there were times when 79 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: he set the mood. 80 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 2: Including bringing people from the convention to his house to 81 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 2: describe what he was doing there and what role that played. 82 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: You know, if you look at the US Capitol now, 83 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: there's beautiful scenes painted in one of the rooms of 84 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: the Founding of America, and one of the ad is 85 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: a picture in the backyard of Benjamin Franklin under the 86 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: shade of the tree, where he's trying to calm things down. 87 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: Franklin always believed that one of his roles was calming 88 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: royaled waters. And he even had a little scientific trick 89 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: that he learned, which is how a small layer of 90 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: oil on the surface of water makes it calmer. And 91 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,799 Speaker 1: so in his walking stick he would put a little 92 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: cruet of oil in one of the chambers and have 93 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: a little button. So if he stood in front of 94 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: Clapham Pond, say in England or river, he could wave 95 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: his walking stick and then secretly press a button and 96 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: the waters would get calmer for him. That became a metaphor. 97 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: At the Constitutional Convention, he played that role he had 98 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: played his whole life of trying to temper people's passions 99 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: calm things down. You need passionate people like a Sam 100 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: Adams to get you into a revolution, but you also 101 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: need somebody who spends his life figuring out how do 102 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: you calm wild waters? And at the Convention he was 103 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: particularly good at bringing contending people to his backyard, sitting 104 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: under the shade of the tree, telling stories, sometimes pointless stories, 105 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: but he would calm down the passions. 106 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 2: In the first episode, we heard about how Franklin's scientific 107 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 2: background taught him that imperfection shouldn't stop one from moving forward, 108 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 2: for example, voting for the Constitution, because the process of 109 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 2: experimentation involved continual improvement upon an idea. Walter noted that 110 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 2: his vote to move the imperfect Constitution into action was 111 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 2: also the result of a long life and a healthy 112 00:07:58,960 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: dose of humility. 113 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: He said, when we were young tradesmen here in Philadelphia, 114 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: and we had a joint of wood or a table 115 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: that didn't fully hold together, you take a little from 116 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: one side and shave a little from the other, until 117 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: you had a joint that would hold together for centuries. 118 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: And so too we hear this convention must each part 119 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: was some of our demands. There were things that he 120 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: believed in, such as a single chamber legislature instead of 121 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: a House and a Senate, but he changes his mind. 122 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: He ends up proposing the compromise of having a House 123 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: of representatives as proportional votes versus a Senate in which 124 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: the equal votes per state, an idea that the Connecticut 125 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: delegation proposed had gone down in flames. But when Franklin 126 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: does it in the detailed way that he proposed it 127 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: and it passed, he gets the balance just right. He 128 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: gave a speech he said, I'm not sure I'll ever 129 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: approve it, for having lived long experienced many instances of 130 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: being obliged to change my opinion on important subjects which 131 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: I thought I was right but found out otherwise. It's 132 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 1: that notion that you don't have to go to war 133 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: and go to battle over every single thing. You should 134 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,559 Speaker 1: be willing to say I might be wrong on these things, 135 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: I might have some humility. Let all compromise and see 136 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: if we can agree on things. 137 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 2: That seems like a manifestation of his experience and also 138 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 2: of his pr mastery and sort of understanding that the 139 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 2: Constitution is also something you have to sell to people. 140 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 2: You have to sell it as an imperfect document, and 141 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 2: to get ahead of that and say, yes, you will 142 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 2: see imperfections at it, but it's the best thing we're 143 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 2: going to get. 144 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the best thing that can come out of 145 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: human hand. One of the things he learned early in 146 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: life was the importance of humility, or is he sometimes 147 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: put it at least having the pretense of humility. You 148 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: might pause for a second and say, well, I could 149 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: be wrong about that. Let me indulge the wisdom of 150 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: people around me and see if we can come to 151 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: an accommodation. And that's not very heroic. That doesn't get 152 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: you on cable TV these days, fighting for the last 153 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: perfect thing you want. But it's the way democracies get made. 154 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: Compromisers may not make great heroes, but they do make 155 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: great democracies. 156 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 2: I want to make sure we don't pass over this moment, 157 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 2: that the idea that Franklin was the only viable candidate 158 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 2: to be the leader of the early United States other 159 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 2: than Washington, and he said I removed myself from this competition. 160 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 2: Did that echo come up for you at all when 161 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 2: Biden did the same. I mean, people have pulled out 162 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 2: for different reasons, but has anyone done it in that 163 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 2: explicit way. 164 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: Well, both Franklin and Washington, there's a lot of credit 165 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 1: in their careers. Franklin during the Constitutional Convention realizes that 166 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: he's too old to take charge and be the first 167 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: president and wants Washington to do it. Then, of course, famously, 168 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 1: at the end of Washington's second term, he says, all right, 169 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: I'm gonna step aside. I'm going to be like Cincinnatus, 170 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: the old Roman, and go back to my farm. That 171 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: notion of voluntarily forsaking power is at the heart of 172 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: what the democracy is, a peaceful transfer of power and 173 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: people who are in it not for themselves and for power, 174 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: but for the democracy itself. You see that in Benjamin Franklin, 175 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: and then you see it again in George Washington, and 176 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: nowadays it's important to do what Biden did at times 177 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: and step aside and on certainly when we look at 178 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: our elections, to believe in the peaceful transfer of power when. 179 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 2: We come back. Franklin addresses the biggest mistake on his 180 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 2: life's list of errata and shows us that you can 181 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 2: change for the better at any age. So after the 182 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 2: Constitial Convention, I mean, it's just extraordinary how long he's 183 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 2: lived and how much he's accomplished at this point. But 184 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 2: there's sort of one more turn left for him, in 185 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 2: a sense, his becoming an abolitionist. 186 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: Throughout his life, he had kept this ledger of errors 187 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: he had made and how he had rectified. It begins 188 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: with him running away from his intenture to his brother 189 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: he rectifies it by taking care of his brother's son 190 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: after his brother dies. Well, the last great errata, more 191 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: than an erato, a moral deep laughed, was tolerating slavery. 192 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 1: Franklin was not as advanced as Don Adams and others were. 193 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: He's certainly more advanced than Jefferson and some of the 194 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: Virginians were. And then he becomes truly at the forefront 195 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: when he takes over the Society for the abolition of 196 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:03,239 Speaker 1: slavery and says, not only do we have to abolish slavery, 197 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: we have to have all sorts of actions that will 198 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:13,719 Speaker 1: bring freed slaves into the educated and working mainstream of 199 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: our middle class. And he writes very long in detailed 200 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: methods of making sure that we get the formerly enslaved 201 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: people into an equal position in society, to find employment, 202 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: to find internships. And it may have not been the 203 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: most profound ethical theory ever, but it was a very 204 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: practical one, and it was totally intertwined to democracy, to 205 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: believing more than any of the other founders, he believed 206 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: in the wisdom of the common person and that we 207 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: should have as much democracy as possible. And so at 208 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: the end of his life he starts writing these tracks 209 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 1: about how bad slavery is. And just as his very 210 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: first published writings were done as hoaxes under a pseudonym 211 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: Silence do Good Letters when he was a teenager, his 212 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: last great publication was once again a hoax under a pseudonym, 213 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: which was a letter from the Divan of Algiers in 214 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: which he's talking in the voice of an Arab leader 215 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: defending the right to enslave captured Christians. And what he's 216 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: doing is eviscerating the arguments made by some of the 217 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: Southern senators against the petition he had presented for the 218 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: abolition of slavery. 219 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 2: And I feel like there's two questions in that evolution. 220 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 2: I think people today would ask why did it take 221 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 2: till the end of his life for him to get there? 222 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 2: And what enabled him to evolve in that way? 223 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: Well, Franklin often of He wrote one essay early on 224 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: which was not very good and was anti German, anti immigrant, 225 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: also showed not much sympathy for the enslaved. And then 226 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: he revised it and he said, I had a natural 227 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: proclivity for my own race. But you may think, why 228 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: is that? Why didn't I question it? Why did I 229 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: feel this way. And one of the things that helps 230 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: him on his evolution is he does get involved in 231 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: these schools for the education of the children of freed 232 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: slaves in the seventeen forties seventeen fifties, and he's amazed 233 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: at the power of education. And he writes about the 234 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: great minds of these young children and how well they do, 235 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: and he says that helped change my mind. Franklin said, 236 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: my morality is a simple and a pragmatic one. The 237 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: best way we can serve our creator is dedicate your 238 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: life to making things better for the people around you, 239 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: for serving other people, and to give opportunities for each 240 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: person to rise in the world the way he did. 241 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: One of the beauties of Benjamin Franklin is that he's 242 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: part of the moral arc of America. He's continually improving 243 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: as we are as a nation, and usually a slight 244 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: bit ahead. 245 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 2: And there's something about doing that into your seventies and 246 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 2: eighties that also implies that it never stops. 247 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think he felt he was on a never 248 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: ending quest for self improvement, self knowledge, for learning things, 249 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: but also on a never ending quest to bend the 250 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: moral arc of his life towards better things and I 251 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: think that should be a template for our country. That 252 00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: notion of continuing self improvement of both ourselves in our 253 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: civic lives is one of the important things that Benjamin 254 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: Franklin teaches us. 255 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 2: This is something that I feel as a little bit 256 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 2: in the air right now when national politics is so 257 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 2: divisive that people will say, focus on your community, focus 258 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:21,239 Speaker 2: on the people around you. And Franklin did focus on 259 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 2: the most national politics, but it feels like he built 260 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 2: his outlook around his community and making changes in his 261 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 2: local environment. 262 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: Yes, he felt that politics would work best from the 263 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: ground up when you start with, as he put it, 264 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: little things like keeping the streets swept. You see why 265 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: we all have to work together at the community level. 266 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: And he felt that would be a model for how 267 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: a big politics would work. That we would all understand 268 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: what can we do in a practical way to give 269 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: everybody an opportunity to have a good life. Education was 270 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: very much a private thing people could afford, it would pay, 271 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: and he said, no, we have to have an academy 272 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: for the education of youths because education is not just 273 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: an individual benefit. It benefits the whole community. Likewise, fire protection, 274 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 1: all the things that would hold a community together. He said, 275 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: let's just find practical ways to do it rather than 276 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: politicizing it. We're still fighting about that. Well. Should there 277 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: be national health, Should there be public health things? Should 278 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 1: we have insurance associations? And Franklin always felt that you 279 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,239 Speaker 1: could give people a sense of individualism but also a 280 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: sense that they could work together as a community. 281 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 2: One of the things that you return to in the 282 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 2: book is his comfort with democracy. And he's more comfortable 283 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 2: with democracy than some of the other founders. But now 284 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 2: we have some questions about too much democracy, too much populism. 285 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:07,120 Speaker 2: Modern political figures take from Franklin. He did resist pure populism. 286 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 2: There was a paston Boy's revolt at one point, it's 287 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 2: almost like the Tea Party revolt, in which it was 288 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 2: anti immigrant, and they were marching to Philadelphia, and he 289 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 2: helped raise a force that would stop them. And he 290 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 2: realized it was up to each one of us, all 291 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 2: of us, to have both a celebration of democracy but 292 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 2: also the civic attributes, the feel for the common good, 293 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 2: the feel for the security of our society that would 294 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 2: help protect it from populist or for that matter, authoritarian 295 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 2: or aristocratic excesses. He didn't care for a mob. 296 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: No, he really didn't like mob rule. Even the Boston 297 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: Tea Party that kind of appalled him, because he was 298 00:19:54,880 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: at heart somebody he wanted moderation. When you put together 299 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 1: the sense of founding this country, you need the most 300 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: passionate people, and you have Samuel Adams and John Adams 301 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: and really smart people like Jefferson and Hamilton, and people 302 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: of high rectitude like Washington. But it's also useful to 303 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 1: have the Franklins who know how to pull people together. 304 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 1: And well, maybe they're two ingratiating, but it could be 305 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: worse things in life. 306 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 2: One of the ways people perceive him is through the 307 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 2: eyes of these sort of maxims and industry, and it 308 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 2: can make them sound a bit like a schoolmarm, like 309 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 2: a person who's always going around instructing people about how 310 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 2: they should behave. And yet you look at his relationships 311 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 2: and the clubs and the communities that he built around 312 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 2: himself wherever he went, how did he manage to sort 313 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 2: of pull people into his orbit. 314 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: When growing up in Puritan Boston, it was a very 315 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: dogmatic time. Things were handed down. The preachers told you 316 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 1: what was right and wrong. The opposite for him was 317 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: being open minded, not being sure of yourself until you 318 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: test it all of your theories, and that means that 319 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: as you go through life, what looks acceptable is no 320 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: longer acceptable because you've tested it a bit more. 321 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 2: Did that in any way draw you to them? You 322 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 2: don't strike me as extremely dogmatic. 323 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not very dogmatic. I was a journalist for many, 324 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 1: many years, and I tried not to be partisan. I 325 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 1: tried to be open minded about everybody I covered, from 326 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan to Ted Kennedy. So Ben Franklin appealed to me. 327 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: I think we've lost that ability in our democracy to 328 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:47,679 Speaker 1: be as open minded as we should be. People grab 329 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: on to a dogmatic view of the world, to their 330 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: preferred cable channel or their end of the talk radio dial. 331 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: With the evidence they get reinforces their own dogma, rather 332 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: than being open to all ideas, all evidence, the way 333 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin was. 334 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 2: And if that open mindedness feels a little bit like 335 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: an endangered species right now, do you have a sense 336 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 2: of what the steps would be to try to bring 337 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 2: it back. 338 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: I think Benjamin Franklin would realize that we all have 339 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: a shared set of values at the local level, that 340 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: our potholes and dirty streets aren't partisan one way or 341 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: the other, and so I think he would want to 342 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 1: help restore democracy neighborhood by neighborhood by having more civic 343 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: associations to support their local hospital or their local firefighters, 344 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 1: just the way he did. I think the poison and 345 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 1: partisanship in our national politics has seat down to some 346 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,680 Speaker 1: extent at the local level. I think Franklin would say 347 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 1: it could also work in reverse. We focus on what's 348 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,239 Speaker 1: really good for our neighborhoods and our communities, then we 349 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: can leach the poison out of the national politics at 350 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: some point. 351 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 2: When we come back. We read Benjamin Franklin's reviews. Is 352 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 2: there anything that surprised you over the years since the 353 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 2: book came out in terms of what people find in 354 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 2: it or what they pull out of it and express 355 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 2: to you. 356 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,479 Speaker 1: One of the things that surprises me a bit is 357 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: that the most passionate, people who are the most partisan 358 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: sometimes embrace the book. Elon Mosk thought it was his favorite, 359 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: said he loved the book. And sometimes I feel like saying, Okay, 360 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: read it again, because it's not just about following your passion, 361 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: it's combining your passion with a little bit of humility, 362 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: so that you try to understand other people's passions as 363 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: well and find the common ground. 364 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 2: Maybe that's the fatal flo on Benjamin Franklin. He gave 365 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 2: us too much to work with, too many things for 366 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 2: you to grab onto to make your own Franklin philosophy. 367 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 2: You mentioned not canonizing Benjamin Franklin, and this actually brings 368 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 2: to mind. There was one point where he's in a 369 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 2: kind of gloomy state of mind and his friend's a 370 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 2: doctor and he writes, do you please yourself with the 371 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 2: fancy that you're doing good. You're mistaken. Half the lives 372 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 2: you save are not worth saving, which does point to 373 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 2: that he had complex moods just like anyone else. He 374 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 2: wasn't just a sunny, happy, go lucky guy, right. 375 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 1: There was at times a little bit of gloominess in him, 376 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: at times, some anger in him, but he knew how 377 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:45,880 Speaker 1: to channel it. He wasn't a brooding sort. And in general, 378 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,919 Speaker 1: his optimism and it's just his cheery nature and his 379 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: desire to please people help define who he is. And 380 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: he was a detailed person. From his earliest civic assotion 381 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:06,719 Speaker 1: ciations to his negotiations in France, he would micromanage every 382 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: little bit of the ammunition and the loans, and when 383 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 1: he came up with plans for things to be sometimes 384 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: twenty or thirty pages of how it should work. Because 385 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: while a lot of people think God is in the 386 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: great vision, he also realized that God was in the details. 387 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: That it really mattered that you become geeky, that you 388 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,199 Speaker 1: put down every rule and regulation, whether it's for how 389 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 1: should the Academy of Youth in Philadelphia teach swimming? To 390 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: how should the French resupply our ammunition? 391 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 2: It's almost like everything was an invention. The world was 392 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 2: there to be invented exactly. 393 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: He was a tinkerer and then an inventor, and then 394 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: just somebody who was ingenius in understanding how details wove 395 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: together to form the whole, and whether it's the flu 396 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: of the Franklin stove and how much it should be heated, 397 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: or whether it was the details of the Treaty of 398 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: Alliance with France. He liked to devise things. He liked 399 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: to be involved with the invention of things. 400 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,239 Speaker 2: It's clear that Walter Isaacson admires Franklin, and we had 401 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 2: talked about him sharing an anti dogmatic view of the 402 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 2: world with his subject, but I wondered if they shared 403 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 2: also a quality common among people who write about the 404 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 2: world for a living. You describe Franklin as graced and 405 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 2: afflicted with the traits so common to journalists, especially ones 406 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 2: who have read Swift and Addison One's too often of 407 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 2: wanting to participate in the world while also remaining a 408 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 2: detached observer. And now I wonder how much were you 409 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 2: writing about yourself? Oh, totally. I mean one of the 410 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 2: things when you're a journalist, like I've been most of 411 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 2: my career, is you realize you're not in the arena 412 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 2: and you become a bit detached. You're just watching other 413 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 2: people do things, perhaps even trying to have a veneer 414 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 2: of objectivity, as if you don't have a dog in 415 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 2: that hunt. 416 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: You're just observing. And I think there's something yearning that 417 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 1: we have, or I had in that position of maybe 418 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: I should be in the arena and maybe, like Addison's 419 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: Weft or Franklin, maybe now should get more involved in things. 420 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: So I understood Franklin's evolution from being a humorous, wry 421 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: poor Richard Almanac writing observer of the foibles of the 422 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: elite to being somebody who then went into politics and statecraft. 423 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 2: It kind of brings to mind something from your own 424 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 2: story when you moved from Washington back to New Orleans, 425 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 2: and then later you got involved in post Katrina New 426 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 2: Orleans and tried to help the city recover. And that 427 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 2: feels very Ben Franklin to me, getting involved in your 428 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 2: local community. I'm wondering if that move felt that way 429 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 2: to you, to try to return to what you can 430 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 2: affect in the world around you. 431 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 1: Yes, I knew that I was never going to run 432 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: for national office or run for president and do things, 433 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: but I figured, how do you then get more involved? 434 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: And then Katrina happened, and my really beloved tone Down 435 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: was flooded, my childhood home was flooded, and I went 436 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: back and I became the vice chairman of the Louisiana 437 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: Recovery Authority, and then. 438 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 2: Moved back to New Orleans. 439 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: Maybe some people will look at our current political climb 440 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: and say, I've got to run for Senate or something. 441 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: But I think the way most of us can do 442 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: it is say, let me be involved in the things 443 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: that make our civic life better. I think we can 444 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: all get more engaged in the civic life of our community, 445 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: which is the way Benjamin Franklin started his road to 446 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: defining American democracy. And even if we're not going to 447 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: run for Senate or run for president, that's the pathway 448 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: to applying the life lessons from ben Franklin to the 449 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: needs we now have in a troubled democracy. 450 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 2: I think part of what's so interesting about Franklin is 451 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 2: that he seems to go in and out of fashion. 452 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: Franklin's age of Enlightenment, which was very practical, very empirical, 453 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: very scientific, gets replaced in the early eighteen hundreds by 454 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: an era that values romanticism more than rationality, and so 455 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: Franklin a bit goes out of style. The romantic poets 456 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: make fun of him. I think it was the poet 457 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,479 Speaker 1: John Keats said that he was just a man of 458 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: thrifty maxims. Franklin was and never a sublime man. But 459 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: I think we see the pendulum swinging back and forth 460 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: through American history. But the middle class values of industry 461 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: and honesty and frugality, and of civic mindedness and having 462 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: a local police and fire departments that are supported the 463 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: these are not lowly mundane values. These are fundamental values 464 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: to keeping a democracy on an even deeal. 465 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 2: And in his own time among some of his peers, 466 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 2: Franklin was never really in fashion. John Adams, the second 467 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 2: President of the United States, fellow author of the Declaration 468 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 2: of Independence, and sharer of a hotel room, while having 469 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 2: a cold thought Franklin might be too open minded. 470 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: John Adams had been his antagonist, a friend and sort 471 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: of a rival for power throughout the Revolution. And Adams 472 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: was a very passionate religious person, and initially he looked 473 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: down on Franklin's sort of vague tolerance of all religions. 474 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: But eventually, after Franklin dies, even John Adams mellows on him, 475 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: he realizes that there's something beautiful about Franklin's outlook. Franklin 476 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: believed in a God that created everybody, and he said, 477 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: if that's what the Good Lord did, then everybody is 478 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: worth equal respect. And so the best way to be religious, 479 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: the best way to serve the Lord, is to be 480 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: tolerant of different religions in different ethnic groups. That notion 481 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: of religious toleration initially offended deeply spiritual religious people. There 482 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: was one historian, Charles Angoff, who makes fun of Franklin 483 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: and says all that he really contributed to America was 484 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: this sort of good natured religious tolerance. What heavens, that 485 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: is the essential thing that America gave to the world. 486 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: In a period in which most countries had established religions 487 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: and would fight religious wars. Country that not only tolerated, 488 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: but respected each person's right to speak and to worship 489 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: as they pleased. This was a whole new thing. And 490 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: during his lifetime Franklin donated to the building fund of 491 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: each and every church built in Philadelphia. And one point 492 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: to the new hall that was being built next Independence Hall, 493 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: which was for visiting preachers. He said, if the muffed 494 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: eye of Constantinople were to send somebody here to teach 495 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: us ismam, we should listen and we should learn. And 496 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: on his deathbad he was the largest individual contributor to 497 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: make the Israel Synagogue, the first synagogue built in Philadelphia. 498 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: The concept of good natured religious tolerance was actually no 499 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: small advance for civilization back then in the eighteenth century. 500 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: It was the greatest of contributions to rise not only 501 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: from the Enlightenment, but from the founding of America, the 502 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: nation not as a tribe, but as out of many, 503 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: one epluribus union, and that notion that people of all 504 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: different faiths, of all different backgrounds get to come here 505 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: and get to be equal citizens. That tolerance and respect 506 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: for different ways of doing things becomes America's gift. 507 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 2: At its best, but it has to keep finding its 508 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 2: best over and over again. 509 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: It does, especially now when we're falling prey to some 510 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: of the sectarian intolerance, the tribalism, even the nationalism that 511 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: sort of says we don't like people from different cultures 512 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: coming here. That is anathema to the democracy that Benjamin 513 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: Franklin and others created two hundred and fifty three hundred 514 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: years ago. When Franklin was dying, he helped organize the 515 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: preyed for Independence Day, and he helped make sure that 516 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: it was left by all the different denominations so it 517 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: could show this idea of religious tolerance. And so too, 518 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: when he died, every preacher, minister, and priest in Philadelphia 519 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: linked arms with the rabbi of the Jews and march 520 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 1: with his casket to the grave. That's what he was 521 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: fighting for back then, and that's of course what was 522 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: still fighting for in the world today. 523 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 2: This show is based on the writing and research of 524 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,360 Speaker 2: Walter Isaacson so Stedd by me Evan Ratliffe, produced, mixed 525 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 2: and sound design by Anna Rubinova. Adam Bozarth is our 526 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 2: consulting producer. Lizzie Jacobs is our editor. Social media by 527 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,800 Speaker 2: Dara Potts. The show was engineered at CDM Sound Studios 528 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 2: from iHeart Podcast. The executive producers are Katrina Norvell and 529 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,720 Speaker 2: Ali Perry. For Kaleidoscope, it was executive produced by Mangeshatikadur 530 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 2: with an assist from our volition, Kostaslinos and Kate Osborn. 531 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 2: Special thanks to Amanda Urban, Bob Pittman, Connell Byrne, Will Pearson, 532 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 2: Nikki Etor, Kerrie Lieberman, Nathan Otowski and Ali Gamon. And 533 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 2: if you like podcasts about inventions what they mean for humanity, 534 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 2: check out my other show, shell Game, about how it 535 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 2: created an AI clone and set it loose on the world. 536 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 2: It's at Shellgame dot co. And for more shows from Kaleidoscope, 537 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 2: be sure to visit Kaleidoscope dot NYC. Thanks so much 538 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 2: for listening.