1
00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:33,836
Speaker 1: Pushkin. Well, Michael placed it very succinctly in my lap

2
00:00:34,036 --> 00:00:37,836
Speaker 1: by texting me one day and he said, stop farting around, Messing.

3
00:00:37,956 --> 00:00:41,036
Speaker 1: Life is short. We should be together and you're perfect.

4
00:00:42,476 --> 00:00:45,196
Speaker 1: What are you going to do with that? I said, well,

5
00:00:45,236 --> 00:00:46,916
Speaker 1: you could take it slow, and he said, yeah, we

6
00:00:46,916 --> 00:00:48,396
Speaker 1: could take it slow, but I'm going to marry the

7
00:00:48,436 --> 00:00:49,956
Speaker 1: fuck out of you one day, which is the way

8
00:00:49,956 --> 00:00:52,156
Speaker 1: to talk to me about marriage, because the idea of

9
00:00:52,196 --> 00:00:55,916
Speaker 1: marriage is a quarrant to me. I come from divorce.

10
00:00:56,156 --> 00:01:00,156
Speaker 1: I had a divorce myself. It wasn't particularly interesting to me.

11
00:01:00,996 --> 00:01:04,436
Speaker 1: And for some reason, his words, he is a writer,

12
00:01:04,756 --> 00:01:09,636
Speaker 1: His words hit me and I bit. That's Susan and Messing.

13
00:01:09,876 --> 00:01:13,436
Speaker 1: She's a comedian and an improviser who performs all over Chicago.

14
00:01:14,196 --> 00:01:18,076
Speaker 1: Nine years ago, she married another comedian, Michael McCarthy, a

15
00:01:18,156 --> 00:01:21,276
Speaker 1: beloved member of Chicago's Second City and a former writer

16
00:01:21,356 --> 00:01:26,076
Speaker 1: for Saturday Night Live. Tragically, in twenty twenty, Michael passed

17
00:01:26,076 --> 00:01:29,996
Speaker 1: away from a rare form of cancer. Michael had left

18
00:01:29,996 --> 00:01:33,036
Speaker 1: Susan with fifty or so boxes of his writings and journals,

19
00:01:33,636 --> 00:01:36,436
Speaker 1: and as part of her grieving process, Susan was intent

20
00:01:36,596 --> 00:01:38,916
Speaker 1: on honoring his memory in his life as a writer.

21
00:01:39,716 --> 00:01:41,836
Speaker 1: So she started to sift through the boxes he had

22
00:01:41,916 --> 00:01:46,196
Speaker 1: left behind for her. I did start discovering this guy

23
00:01:46,676 --> 00:01:50,236
Speaker 1: who was not for me, not for the world, for

24
00:01:50,276 --> 00:01:52,516
Speaker 1: the world, he was exactly who he was. But for

25
00:01:52,676 --> 00:01:57,396
Speaker 1: my personal relationship. I was getting the sinking feeling of oh,

26
00:01:58,036 --> 00:02:02,756
Speaker 1: the saint, the guy I thought he was. On today's

27
00:02:02,756 --> 00:02:06,396
Speaker 1: episode a story of what happens when you opened Pandora's box.

28
00:02:09,916 --> 00:02:13,276
Speaker 1: I'm doctor Maya Schunker. I'm a cognitive scientist who studies

29
00:02:13,316 --> 00:02:16,196
Speaker 1: how and why we change. On this show, you'll hear

30
00:02:16,236 --> 00:02:20,156
Speaker 1: from people who've navigated extraordinary change in their lives, and

31
00:02:20,236 --> 00:02:23,116
Speaker 1: my hope is that you'll leave each episode thinking differently

32
00:02:23,196 --> 00:02:29,596
Speaker 1: about change in your own life. This is a slight

33
00:02:29,716 --> 00:02:32,676
Speaker 1: change of plans, a show about who we are and

34
00:02:32,676 --> 00:02:46,876
Speaker 1: who we become in the face of a big change. So, Susan,

35
00:02:47,396 --> 00:02:49,796
Speaker 1: you and Michael had known each other for twenty five

36
00:02:49,876 --> 00:02:53,276
Speaker 1: years before getting together, and I'm wondering what led you

37
00:02:53,316 --> 00:02:58,156
Speaker 1: to finally date. I had seen Michael in two thousand

38
00:02:58,196 --> 00:03:00,876
Speaker 1: and six or seven. He was teaching at Chicago. He

39
00:03:01,316 --> 00:03:03,356
Speaker 1: had taken a job as a radio host on a

40
00:03:03,436 --> 00:03:07,076
Speaker 1: morning show, a comedy show, and I had asked my

41
00:03:07,116 --> 00:03:09,356
Speaker 1: friend Kate, I said, what's up with Michael mccarth and

42
00:03:09,356 --> 00:03:11,676
Speaker 1: she said, Oh, he's going through a divorce. And I'm like, oh,

43
00:03:11,676 --> 00:03:14,116
Speaker 1: I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pull. But

44
00:03:14,236 --> 00:03:16,836
Speaker 1: because I wouldn't, because after a divorce, that's when people

45
00:03:16,876 --> 00:03:19,196
Speaker 1: are bitter and shitty, and you don't want to be

46
00:03:19,236 --> 00:03:23,076
Speaker 1: a part of that, at least in any solid sense.

47
00:03:23,556 --> 00:03:27,156
Speaker 1: But I always used to flirt with him, and I

48
00:03:27,196 --> 00:03:29,116
Speaker 1: had always thought Michael was out of my league. He

49
00:03:29,276 --> 00:03:33,956
Speaker 1: was way too smart and kind and funny, and way

50
00:03:33,996 --> 00:03:37,596
Speaker 1: too attractive for me. He's a hot silver fox. I

51
00:03:37,636 --> 00:03:41,716
Speaker 1: was smitten when he decided to put his attentions toward me.

52
00:03:41,836 --> 00:03:44,396
Speaker 1: I was like, I'd be an idiot not to be

53
00:03:44,476 --> 00:03:48,116
Speaker 1: with this human. I'm curious to know what happens when

54
00:03:48,436 --> 00:03:52,276
Speaker 1: two comedy writers get together and get married. I would

55
00:03:52,276 --> 00:03:53,556
Speaker 1: have loved to be a fly on the wall at

56
00:03:53,556 --> 00:03:56,916
Speaker 1: your wedding. What was that like? We're people in stitches

57
00:03:56,956 --> 00:04:01,636
Speaker 1: over your vows. Michael's vows to me were just insane.

58
00:04:01,916 --> 00:04:04,796
Speaker 1: He's the writer in the family, I'm an improviser, I'm

59
00:04:05,236 --> 00:04:07,836
Speaker 1: I'm a talk vomit. And then you have to kind

60
00:04:07,836 --> 00:04:11,156
Speaker 1: of discover what was for breakfast. Michael would write and

61
00:04:11,316 --> 00:04:14,556
Speaker 1: rewrite and then flip it around and then say, if

62
00:04:14,556 --> 00:04:16,356
Speaker 1: this joke was easier, you know, I mean, he was

63
00:04:16,556 --> 00:04:20,436
Speaker 1: very tactical about that, and so, I mean, we pretended

64
00:04:20,476 --> 00:04:23,196
Speaker 1: to do a flip who went first, but honestly I

65
00:04:23,756 --> 00:04:27,676
Speaker 1: had to open because Michael was the headliner. Absolutely. Do

66
00:04:27,716 --> 00:04:31,876
Speaker 1: you remember any specific vows that he shared? Yeah? He

67
00:04:32,276 --> 00:04:36,436
Speaker 1: Oh boy, he's beautiful. First of all, he promised me

68
00:04:36,476 --> 00:04:40,236
Speaker 1: his undying fidelity, not fidelity when it was convenient, not

69
00:04:40,516 --> 00:04:46,396
Speaker 1: French fidelity, which big laugh. He promised that he would

70
00:04:46,436 --> 00:04:48,156
Speaker 1: do anything to take care of me, whether he had

71
00:04:48,156 --> 00:04:52,356
Speaker 1: to be a Walmart reader or work in development in NBC,

72
00:04:52,676 --> 00:04:55,276
Speaker 1: which was big for the writers. They all got a

73
00:04:55,316 --> 00:04:57,716
Speaker 1: chuckle out of that. He said, whoever, fox with you?

74
00:04:57,796 --> 00:05:02,156
Speaker 1: Fox with me? Oh, he's just so glib and charming,

75
00:05:02,676 --> 00:05:05,356
Speaker 1: so charming, and I couldn't believe I was marrying such

76
00:05:05,356 --> 00:05:08,476
Speaker 1: a charming man. So and what did you promise him?

77
00:05:09,556 --> 00:05:11,996
Speaker 1: I promised to love his special needs cat as if

78
00:05:12,036 --> 00:05:15,636
Speaker 1: it were my own. I promised that I would love

79
00:05:15,716 --> 00:05:19,916
Speaker 1: him unequivocally because I described him as a true gentleman

80
00:05:20,516 --> 00:05:22,676
Speaker 1: and said some nice words in that way. But My

81
00:05:22,796 --> 00:05:25,556
Speaker 1: promise to him was to love him unequivocally. That was

82
00:05:25,676 --> 00:05:29,756
Speaker 1: it simple. Can you take me back to the day

83
00:05:29,796 --> 00:05:35,676
Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen when Michael received a cancer diagnosis who

84
00:05:36,516 --> 00:05:40,156
Speaker 1: he had been having trouble beforehand. His left arm felt

85
00:05:40,196 --> 00:05:44,796
Speaker 1: like it was encased in ice water, and they discovered

86
00:05:44,916 --> 00:05:48,956
Speaker 1: a tumor, a glioblastoma in his spinal cord. They seek

87
00:05:48,996 --> 00:05:52,676
Speaker 1: gleoblastomas in brains. Everyone to three weeks. They see this

88
00:05:53,356 --> 00:05:56,636
Speaker 1: maybe every one to three years. It's a It's just

89
00:05:56,716 --> 00:05:59,996
Speaker 1: a bad tumor in a really bad place. And how

90
00:05:59,996 --> 00:06:03,836
Speaker 1: did that express itself? Well? He had to spend a

91
00:06:03,876 --> 00:06:06,956
Speaker 1: month in the rehab unit to simply really learn how

92
00:06:06,956 --> 00:06:09,676
Speaker 1: to walk again. After they went into his next simply

93
00:06:09,716 --> 00:06:13,916
Speaker 1: to get a biopsy. Within minutes of him coming home,

94
00:06:14,436 --> 00:06:17,476
Speaker 1: I had had lifts going from the downstairs to the

95
00:06:17,596 --> 00:06:20,396
Speaker 1: upstairs to our bedroom and to the basement where his

96
00:06:20,476 --> 00:06:22,996
Speaker 1: office was into downstairs. Like all of a sudden, we

97
00:06:22,996 --> 00:06:27,036
Speaker 1: were creating ways to navigate this, and I kept thinking,

98
00:06:27,076 --> 00:06:29,476
Speaker 1: what is going to make Michael feel like a real boy?

99
00:06:29,556 --> 00:06:32,756
Speaker 1: That was so important to me because I could see

100
00:06:32,796 --> 00:06:34,796
Speaker 1: this was a guy who used to bound upstairs and

101
00:06:34,876 --> 00:06:37,836
Speaker 1: now he could barely walk and we did it quietly.

102
00:06:38,556 --> 00:06:40,476
Speaker 1: We tried not to make it a big deal. You

103
00:06:40,476 --> 00:06:43,876
Speaker 1: don't want to be in a sick home when someone's sick.

104
00:06:44,756 --> 00:06:50,356
Speaker 1: I really was constantly conscious of what would make him

105
00:06:51,476 --> 00:06:56,356
Speaker 1: feel as normal as possible. What was his survival rate?

106
00:06:57,356 --> 00:07:00,076
Speaker 1: I think you buy time. I don't think you. I

107
00:07:00,116 --> 00:07:03,036
Speaker 1: don't think you. They said you might live ten years,

108
00:07:03,036 --> 00:07:05,756
Speaker 1: you might live dot but I don't I think they

109
00:07:05,756 --> 00:07:08,596
Speaker 1: said that to be nice. I don't think that you

110
00:07:08,676 --> 00:07:11,196
Speaker 1: feel you knew that kind of right away that they

111
00:07:11,196 --> 00:07:14,356
Speaker 1: were saying that to be nice. Or he worked so

112
00:07:14,476 --> 00:07:17,396
Speaker 1: hard in physical therapy to get better. You could see

113
00:07:17,476 --> 00:07:21,156
Speaker 1: him going from a wheelchair to a walker to a cane.

114
00:07:21,516 --> 00:07:24,396
Speaker 1: He even had a triumphant walk down Lincoln Avenue where

115
00:07:24,436 --> 00:07:28,276
Speaker 1: fifty people came and waved Michael signs and blue whistles.

116
00:07:28,676 --> 00:07:31,036
Speaker 1: And what I said to Michael as we bought time,

117
00:07:31,596 --> 00:07:33,756
Speaker 1: what do you want to do with it? And he

118
00:07:33,836 --> 00:07:36,956
Speaker 1: kept saying that all the time, we've bought time. And

119
00:07:38,796 --> 00:07:41,036
Speaker 1: again I did not want to deal with the fact

120
00:07:41,036 --> 00:07:44,636
Speaker 1: that Michael was handling his mortality while I was preemptively

121
00:07:44,756 --> 00:07:47,676
Speaker 1: grieving in my car. Every day I would go to

122
00:07:47,716 --> 00:07:50,476
Speaker 1: pick up my daughter at school and I would just weep.

123
00:07:50,756 --> 00:07:53,116
Speaker 1: And that's when I called my therapist. I said, m

124
00:07:53,596 --> 00:07:55,996
Speaker 1: guess what lot's happened since I've last spoken to you

125
00:07:56,036 --> 00:07:58,676
Speaker 1: about You know, seven years ago, I met a hot

126
00:07:58,716 --> 00:08:01,156
Speaker 1: silver fox. He is a tumor in his spinal cord,

127
00:08:01,236 --> 00:08:03,636
Speaker 1: and now I'm grieving in the car go. So that's

128
00:08:03,716 --> 00:08:06,196
Speaker 1: kind of the way I took it. I realized that

129
00:08:06,316 --> 00:08:08,476
Speaker 1: my strength at this point was admitting where I was

130
00:08:08,476 --> 00:08:10,836
Speaker 1: super weak and where I was week was I wanted

131
00:08:10,876 --> 00:08:14,436
Speaker 1: to be super present for my husband right now, and

132
00:08:14,476 --> 00:08:16,836
Speaker 1: I felt that I was planning his memorial in my

133
00:08:16,876 --> 00:08:21,516
Speaker 1: brain and that was just not okay for me. So

134
00:08:21,596 --> 00:08:23,956
Speaker 1: in addition to physically caring for him, one way in

135
00:08:23,996 --> 00:08:26,796
Speaker 1: which you expressed your care was to shelter him from

136
00:08:26,796 --> 00:08:29,316
Speaker 1: your own grief. Is that right? Yeah? We tried to

137
00:08:29,356 --> 00:08:31,516
Speaker 1: keep it light. We tried to keep it super super light.

138
00:08:32,796 --> 00:08:36,476
Speaker 1: What impact did his diagnosis have on your relationship? I mean,

139
00:08:36,476 --> 00:08:39,076
Speaker 1: in what ways did your dynamics as a couple shift?

140
00:08:41,556 --> 00:08:44,916
Speaker 1: Who Well, when you're the nurse, it changes, doesn't it

141
00:08:44,916 --> 00:08:47,476
Speaker 1: It changes a lot. Where you're going to have to

142
00:08:47,476 --> 00:08:53,476
Speaker 1: be responsible for urine samples and medicine and all sorts.

143
00:08:53,476 --> 00:08:57,396
Speaker 1: Of stuff, and I tried to keep it more wifely.

144
00:08:57,636 --> 00:09:01,396
Speaker 1: I pretended it was wifely, but I knew. I knew

145
00:09:01,436 --> 00:09:05,356
Speaker 1: it just shifted into nurse mode, full nurse mode, and

146
00:09:06,236 --> 00:09:08,636
Speaker 1: I would ask for support from people, and that that

147
00:09:08,756 --> 00:09:12,196
Speaker 1: was I can't begin to tell you how many people

148
00:09:12,236 --> 00:09:16,676
Speaker 1: helped us. Everyone loved Michael. Everyone loved Michael. He was

149
00:09:16,756 --> 00:09:20,876
Speaker 1: a good human being. That was probably what's that book

150
00:09:20,916 --> 00:09:23,996
Speaker 1: When Bad Things Happened to Great People. That was Michael.

151
00:09:24,236 --> 00:09:29,476
Speaker 1: And Michael started writing these beautiful essays on Facebook. He

152
00:09:29,516 --> 00:09:32,436
Speaker 1: called them beloveds where they were kind of garrison keeler

153
00:09:32,476 --> 00:09:37,316
Speaker 1: folksy musings on life and cancer and all that. And

154
00:09:37,356 --> 00:09:40,996
Speaker 1: he actually helped a lot of people during that time

155
00:09:41,116 --> 00:09:45,276
Speaker 1: where he himself was struggling, you know, and I just

156
00:09:45,356 --> 00:09:49,436
Speaker 1: tried to remain in the background. Did you expect him

157
00:09:49,436 --> 00:09:53,676
Speaker 1: to be so open and vulnerable and public about his

158
00:09:53,756 --> 00:09:57,236
Speaker 1: cancer diagnosis? First of all, I don't think there'd be

159
00:09:57,316 --> 00:10:00,516
Speaker 1: any way to hide it. He was profoundly disabled. And

160
00:10:00,556 --> 00:10:02,796
Speaker 1: this is a guy who had gotten a black belt

161
00:10:02,836 --> 00:10:06,316
Speaker 1: in taekwondo at age fifty three. So this was a

162
00:10:06,396 --> 00:10:10,436
Speaker 1: really active, vibrant human being who was all of a

163
00:10:10,516 --> 00:10:15,436
Speaker 1: sudden hunched over like an old man with a puffy

164
00:10:15,516 --> 00:10:19,956
Speaker 1: steroid face. And Michael always said he was put on

165
00:10:19,956 --> 00:10:21,996
Speaker 1: this planet to help a few people and learn a

166
00:10:21,996 --> 00:10:25,636
Speaker 1: few things. So I think he used this as an

167
00:10:25,636 --> 00:10:29,356
Speaker 1: opportunity to kind of address his mortality in a way

168
00:10:29,396 --> 00:10:35,436
Speaker 1: that was less scary for other people and ultimately for himself. Yeah,

169
00:10:36,076 --> 00:10:39,756
Speaker 1: was there a very definitive moment where you realized my

170
00:10:39,876 --> 00:10:43,356
Speaker 1: husband is about to die? Had you been holding onto

171
00:10:43,436 --> 00:10:48,236
Speaker 1: some hope before? Then? As I'm watching him every day,

172
00:10:48,276 --> 00:10:52,276
Speaker 1: even though he's animated and his mind was completely all there,

173
00:10:53,516 --> 00:10:55,996
Speaker 1: I noticed him getting weaker and weaker. There was one

174
00:10:56,036 --> 00:10:59,596
Speaker 1: point where he was standing up in between the bars

175
00:11:00,036 --> 00:11:02,196
Speaker 1: and he walked with help with like two or three people,

176
00:11:02,196 --> 00:11:06,836
Speaker 1: and I thought, we're going backwards. In the meantime, doctor

177
00:11:06,876 --> 00:11:09,036
Speaker 1: and a social worker walked into Michael's room and said,

178
00:11:09,196 --> 00:11:13,796
Speaker 1: we invite you to consider strongly hospice. And Michael let

179
00:11:13,836 --> 00:11:21,196
Speaker 1: out a sound that I'll never forget because it sounded

180
00:11:21,236 --> 00:11:23,316
Speaker 1: like he thought, oh shit, this is the end of

181
00:11:23,356 --> 00:11:27,916
Speaker 1: the line. And I said, no, honey, no, no no, no, no,

182
00:11:27,956 --> 00:11:29,596
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. We don't have to go into hospice. We

183
00:11:29,596 --> 00:11:31,916
Speaker 1: can stand palliative. Because it was the word hospice that

184
00:11:31,956 --> 00:11:35,716
Speaker 1: all of a sudden it resonated with him, and so

185
00:11:35,756 --> 00:11:38,356
Speaker 1: I went in the car and I called up doctor Fran,

186
00:11:38,476 --> 00:11:41,196
Speaker 1: a friend of ours, and I said, Michael still wants

187
00:11:41,236 --> 00:11:44,636
Speaker 1: to fight. Fran insisted that there was a possibility at

188
00:11:44,636 --> 00:11:48,196
Speaker 1: another hospital, but as we're getting ready to get him

189
00:11:48,236 --> 00:11:50,356
Speaker 1: out of the hospital, he said to me, well, when

190
00:11:50,356 --> 00:11:52,676
Speaker 1: we go to the hospital, can I go on a gurney?

191
00:11:53,476 --> 00:11:55,036
Speaker 1: And I turned to and I said, Michael, I don't

192
00:11:55,036 --> 00:11:57,036
Speaker 1: think we can do that, sweetheart. I think you have

193
00:11:57,116 --> 00:12:00,076
Speaker 1: to be strong enough. This is a pandemic and people

194
00:12:00,116 --> 00:12:02,316
Speaker 1: aren't going to treat you until you're stronger. So I

195
00:12:02,396 --> 00:12:04,916
Speaker 1: used the word stronger, but I knew he was going backwards,

196
00:12:05,036 --> 00:12:09,196
Speaker 1: and so we got him home and after that I

197
00:12:09,316 --> 00:12:12,436
Speaker 1: knew this was the road down. And he died two

198
00:12:12,476 --> 00:12:14,836
Speaker 1: and a half weeks after he came home. He was

199
00:12:14,876 --> 00:12:17,196
Speaker 1: completely The sounds so weird, but thank goodness, he was

200
00:12:17,196 --> 00:12:20,316
Speaker 1: completely paralyzed when he died, because he did feel no pain.

201
00:12:22,196 --> 00:12:25,716
Speaker 1: He mentioned that Michael was fully paralyzed at his passing,

202
00:12:26,436 --> 00:12:29,796
Speaker 1: but his brain was very much still alive. What were

203
00:12:29,796 --> 00:12:34,036
Speaker 1: those final moments like, Well, I would say the last

204
00:12:34,196 --> 00:12:37,916
Speaker 1: conversation that anybody would consider Ah, that's sweet or profound

205
00:12:37,996 --> 00:12:40,196
Speaker 1: or whatever. As I said to Michael, how will I know?

206
00:12:42,076 --> 00:12:47,316
Speaker 1: How will I know that you're with me? And he said,

207
00:12:47,356 --> 00:12:49,756
Speaker 1: you'll feel me around you. And then I said why

208
00:12:49,756 --> 00:12:52,836
Speaker 1: did you choose me? And he said you are awesome?

209
00:12:53,116 --> 00:12:56,396
Speaker 1: You are awesome beyond words, and I thought, God, damn it,

210
00:12:56,436 --> 00:13:00,236
Speaker 1: you sweet writer right till the end. Good job, that's

211
00:13:00,236 --> 00:13:08,236
Speaker 1: a punch gut wow. Wow. How do you process that moment?

212
00:13:09,836 --> 00:13:12,156
Speaker 1: I think I had worked very, very hard on my

213
00:13:12,236 --> 00:13:24,956
Speaker 1: grieving beforehand, but for me, I was simply sad. I

214
00:13:25,076 --> 00:13:27,916
Speaker 1: was simply sad, and I don't think I've ever lived

215
00:13:28,476 --> 00:13:35,116
Speaker 1: in sadness like that before. You said earlier that Michael

216
00:13:35,516 --> 00:13:38,916
Speaker 1: had left you with fifty boxes of his writings, and

217
00:13:39,876 --> 00:13:42,836
Speaker 1: I can't imagine how raw and vulnerable you must have

218
00:13:42,916 --> 00:13:46,276
Speaker 1: felt in the days and weeks following his death. So

219
00:13:47,036 --> 00:13:48,716
Speaker 1: did it take you some time to muster up the

220
00:13:48,796 --> 00:13:51,316
Speaker 1: strength to open up that first box? I mean, what

221
00:13:51,396 --> 00:13:54,676
Speaker 1: was that process? Like? No? I kind of started it

222
00:13:54,716 --> 00:13:57,556
Speaker 1: pretty quickly because I guess Michael was so organized, and

223
00:13:57,596 --> 00:14:00,396
Speaker 1: I really wanted to honor his possessions. I didn't want

224
00:14:00,436 --> 00:14:02,276
Speaker 1: to just throw them and dumpster and say to hell

225
00:14:02,316 --> 00:14:04,676
Speaker 1: with it. Now. If Michael had said to me, Susan,

226
00:14:04,796 --> 00:14:07,236
Speaker 1: I got fifty plus years of journals and all this crap,

227
00:14:07,316 --> 00:14:10,116
Speaker 1: just get rid of it, I would have. But he

228
00:14:10,156 --> 00:14:12,396
Speaker 1: was a word hoarder. He was a writer, and he

229
00:14:12,436 --> 00:14:15,476
Speaker 1: needed to see. Even when he was sick and he

230
00:14:15,516 --> 00:14:19,796
Speaker 1: was working on a four books, every time he even

231
00:14:19,796 --> 00:14:23,236
Speaker 1: made changes, he would print them up and fan them

232
00:14:23,276 --> 00:14:26,596
Speaker 1: in a beautiful, pleasing OCD way on his coffee table.

233
00:14:27,036 --> 00:14:29,356
Speaker 1: And so I thought, this guy takes the stuff seriously,

234
00:14:29,676 --> 00:14:32,916
Speaker 1: even though I don't. That doesn't mean I can't be

235
00:14:32,996 --> 00:14:36,836
Speaker 1: incredibly respectful. So I kind of started it with an

236
00:14:36,876 --> 00:14:40,036
Speaker 1: idea of, oh, I'll just go through the boxes. And

237
00:14:40,076 --> 00:14:44,036
Speaker 1: then I started reading his journals. And as I'm reading

238
00:14:44,076 --> 00:14:47,676
Speaker 1: his words, which he entrusted me with, I'm starting to

239
00:14:47,716 --> 00:14:50,476
Speaker 1: feel sad because it seems to me that he struggled

240
00:14:50,516 --> 00:14:55,316
Speaker 1: more than I thought. Issues with sex and with debt

241
00:14:55,716 --> 00:15:00,436
Speaker 1: kept coming back again and again, and I don't you know,

242
00:15:00,516 --> 00:15:06,116
Speaker 1: it seemed that he struggled with addiction. And he was

243
00:15:06,116 --> 00:15:08,796
Speaker 1: an alcoholic who was twenty plus a year sober. But

244
00:15:08,836 --> 00:15:12,276
Speaker 1: it's that porn and debt are right next door to that,

245
00:15:12,436 --> 00:15:14,996
Speaker 1: and he struggled with that and I never knew of that,

246
00:15:15,356 --> 00:15:17,876
Speaker 1: so as I'm reading it, I'm kind of thinking to myself,

247
00:15:18,756 --> 00:15:21,876
Speaker 1: what the hell like? This is very new to me.

248
00:15:23,116 --> 00:15:26,956
Speaker 1: And not only that, he had told me that two

249
00:15:26,996 --> 00:15:29,716
Speaker 1: important relationships he had they had cheated on him. And

250
00:15:29,756 --> 00:15:31,516
Speaker 1: I thought, well, I'll never cheat on you. And you

251
00:15:31,556 --> 00:15:34,676
Speaker 1: also promised your dying fidelity, not fidelity one's convenient, not

252
00:15:34,676 --> 00:15:39,156
Speaker 1: French fidelity. So I thought to myself, oh, well, I'll

253
00:15:39,156 --> 00:15:41,156
Speaker 1: never cheat on you, so this is not an issue.

254
00:15:41,396 --> 00:15:44,956
Speaker 1: But what I discovered was Michael was constantly scrambling. He'd

255
00:15:44,996 --> 00:15:49,236
Speaker 1: break up with somebody after he started dating someone else,

256
00:15:49,556 --> 00:15:52,756
Speaker 1: so I guess the kids call it cheating. I did

257
00:15:52,876 --> 00:15:57,796
Speaker 1: start discovering this guy who was not for me, not

258
00:15:58,196 --> 00:16:00,116
Speaker 1: for the world. For the world, he was exactly who

259
00:16:00,196 --> 00:16:04,436
Speaker 1: he was, but for my personal relationship, I was getting

260
00:16:04,476 --> 00:16:08,076
Speaker 1: this sinking feeling of oh, this the same the guy

261
00:16:08,196 --> 00:16:11,276
Speaker 1: I thought he was. But then again, if Michael had said,

262
00:16:11,316 --> 00:16:13,716
Speaker 1: don't read my word, Susan for all him out there,

263
00:16:13,756 --> 00:16:16,436
Speaker 1: you know, I would have absolutely followed his directive. But

264
00:16:16,556 --> 00:16:19,276
Speaker 1: because my friend Paula said to me, while Susan, I

265
00:16:19,276 --> 00:16:22,636
Speaker 1: think he wants you to know, I thought to myself, no, well,

266
00:16:22,676 --> 00:16:26,556
Speaker 1: no matter how confusing this is or maybe even hurtful,

267
00:16:27,436 --> 00:16:29,756
Speaker 1: I am going to have to plod through this in

268
00:16:29,996 --> 00:16:34,196
Speaker 1: waiters and I'll slog through the mud. Because Paula thought

269
00:16:34,196 --> 00:16:38,316
Speaker 1: that he would want me to know him totally, because

270
00:16:38,316 --> 00:16:40,316
Speaker 1: otherwise she thought he would have cleaned up his side

271
00:16:40,316 --> 00:16:43,836
Speaker 1: of the street. Right. And so one day, when I

272
00:16:43,876 --> 00:16:46,276
Speaker 1: was going through the boxes, I found an old list

273
00:16:46,316 --> 00:16:50,276
Speaker 1: of passcodes and I looked at them and there was

274
00:16:50,356 --> 00:16:53,796
Speaker 1: one number three to four zeven zero, and I thought, well,

275
00:16:53,836 --> 00:16:55,596
Speaker 1: that's not the Jewish New Year, that's a couple of

276
00:16:55,636 --> 00:16:58,036
Speaker 1: decades ago, that's not his mom's birthday. It just was

277
00:16:58,076 --> 00:17:01,996
Speaker 1: sitting there. It didn't say phone password. And I'm thinking

278
00:17:01,996 --> 00:17:05,356
Speaker 1: to myself, the one password I have not gotten from

279
00:17:05,636 --> 00:17:09,396
Speaker 1: my husband is his phone password. It was not on

280
00:17:10,036 --> 00:17:13,116
Speaker 1: the spreadsheet which somebody had filled out for me of

281
00:17:13,156 --> 00:17:15,996
Speaker 1: all of his passwords. Because I knew I needed, ultimately

282
00:17:16,076 --> 00:17:19,116
Speaker 1: to deal with Sears warranty and Anderson Past Control or

283
00:17:19,116 --> 00:17:22,396
Speaker 1: whatever the case may be, the bills that he paid online.

284
00:17:22,436 --> 00:17:24,316
Speaker 1: I wanted to make sure that was taken care of.

285
00:17:24,836 --> 00:17:27,836
Speaker 1: So I just put it in the phone and it

286
00:17:27,956 --> 00:17:31,756
Speaker 1: opened up, and when it opened up, I was so

287
00:17:31,836 --> 00:17:34,756
Speaker 1: grateful because I thought to myself, Michael has friends who

288
00:17:34,796 --> 00:17:37,676
Speaker 1: are not of my generation that might not have known

289
00:17:38,356 --> 00:17:42,196
Speaker 1: about his death and all the accolades and the oh bits,

290
00:17:42,276 --> 00:17:45,716
Speaker 1: and they hadn't seen that. So there were people that

291
00:17:45,796 --> 00:17:48,436
Speaker 1: I thought to myself, I can tell them now that

292
00:17:48,516 --> 00:17:51,716
Speaker 1: he's dead and feel good about that. So I opened

293
00:17:51,716 --> 00:17:56,436
Speaker 1: it up in the top. The top thread was with

294
00:17:56,476 --> 00:18:01,036
Speaker 1: a woman named Meredith, and it started March thirty first,

295
00:18:01,516 --> 00:18:06,036
Speaker 1: and he died on April eighth. And he said, how's everything.

296
00:18:06,956 --> 00:18:11,636
Speaker 1: I have profound neuropathy and it's making it hard to type.

297
00:18:11,716 --> 00:18:14,876
Speaker 1: I love you. And then she said, baby, baby, baby,

298
00:18:14,916 --> 00:18:17,676
Speaker 1: I love you so much. Prayer hands, prayer hands, hearts, hearts, hearts.

299
00:18:18,116 --> 00:18:22,516
Speaker 1: And then she said, baby, could you send me fifty

300
00:18:22,516 --> 00:18:27,556
Speaker 1: dollars for childcare? I hate to ask, baby, baby, baby hearts, hearts, hearts,

301
00:18:28,756 --> 00:18:30,636
Speaker 1: and I thought childcare, and I'm like, does he have

302
00:18:30,636 --> 00:18:33,116
Speaker 1: another child I don't know about, Like what's going on here?

303
00:18:33,676 --> 00:18:37,156
Speaker 1: And then I keep scrolling down and she says, baby,

304
00:18:37,276 --> 00:18:41,676
Speaker 1: thank you so much. Baby. What would I do without you? Baby? Babies, babies,

305
00:18:42,156 --> 00:18:47,716
Speaker 1: And I'm staring at this and this horrible sinking feeling

306
00:18:47,836 --> 00:18:50,516
Speaker 1: comes over me as I'm doing this. This is slow motion,

307
00:18:51,116 --> 00:18:54,196
Speaker 1: and I still alone in this basement about ten feet away,

308
00:18:54,316 --> 00:18:58,476
Speaker 1: and said, oh no, because as the days went on,

309
00:18:58,596 --> 00:19:01,756
Speaker 1: she asked for more and more money, and I'm I'm

310
00:19:01,796 --> 00:19:03,956
Speaker 1: the keeper of the flame, and I'm thinking, well, that's

311
00:19:03,996 --> 00:19:07,156
Speaker 1: the day he stopped eating, and that's the day that

312
00:19:07,316 --> 00:19:10,356
Speaker 1: pills went into liquids, and that's the day he died.

313
00:19:10,396 --> 00:19:12,956
Speaker 1: You're still asking for money on the day that he died.

314
00:19:14,996 --> 00:19:17,676
Speaker 1: And so I wrote her on Michael's phone, which I

315
00:19:17,676 --> 00:19:20,636
Speaker 1: can only imagine how jarring that is. And I just

316
00:19:20,676 --> 00:19:23,316
Speaker 1: wrote to her, I said, who are you? My husband

317
00:19:23,396 --> 00:19:30,276
Speaker 1: is dead. We'll be back in a moment. With a

318
00:19:30,316 --> 00:19:44,116
Speaker 1: slight change of plans. Susan had discovered that her husband, Michael,

319
00:19:44,316 --> 00:19:46,956
Speaker 1: was not the person she thought he was, and that

320
00:19:47,036 --> 00:19:49,796
Speaker 1: he'd been communicating with another woman through his final days,

321
00:19:50,076 --> 00:19:54,516
Speaker 1: a woman named Meredith. Susan desperately needed answers, so she

322
00:19:54,636 --> 00:19:58,596
Speaker 1: texted her. I said, who are you? My husband died

323
00:19:58,636 --> 00:20:03,116
Speaker 1: of cancer. And then I went to his computer. It's

324
00:20:03,116 --> 00:20:06,236
Speaker 1: the first time I've ever done that, plugged in his

325
00:20:06,436 --> 00:20:09,836
Speaker 1: password and he had pretty much scrub to his computer,

326
00:20:09,916 --> 00:20:12,396
Speaker 1: but he found a couple of choice moments from twenty

327
00:20:12,436 --> 00:20:16,556
Speaker 1: seventeen which means he was doing this before he was sick,

328
00:20:18,156 --> 00:20:23,156
Speaker 1: and one of them was super porny and the other

329
00:20:23,316 --> 00:20:24,996
Speaker 1: was from Michael where he's like, I guess I'm going

330
00:20:25,076 --> 00:20:27,516
Speaker 1: to have to erase some of our videos. Ha ha ha.

331
00:20:29,756 --> 00:20:33,876
Speaker 1: I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, this is not happening.

332
00:20:34,396 --> 00:20:40,396
Speaker 1: The worst case scenario is happening. It's happening, and it's

333
00:20:41,676 --> 00:20:44,836
Speaker 1: happening to me. I just nursed him to his death

334
00:20:44,876 --> 00:20:48,356
Speaker 1: and he's and now I'm grieving in an international pandemic

335
00:20:48,396 --> 00:20:51,956
Speaker 1: and it's happening to me. And now this woman isn't biting.

336
00:20:52,916 --> 00:20:55,036
Speaker 1: She's not going to say anything because now I went

337
00:20:55,036 --> 00:20:57,076
Speaker 1: into his Chase account and found that she had sent

338
00:20:57,196 --> 00:21:00,196
Speaker 1: him a significant He had sent her a significant amount

339
00:21:00,196 --> 00:21:04,116
Speaker 1: of money from twenty seventeen to twenty twenty when he died,

340
00:21:04,236 --> 00:21:07,516
Speaker 1: and I'd pretty much quit my life to care for him.

341
00:21:07,796 --> 00:21:10,596
Speaker 1: I had been teaching for I Owe the Annoyance the

342
00:21:10,636 --> 00:21:14,476
Speaker 1: Second City University of Chicago school at Steppenwolf DePaul University

343
00:21:14,676 --> 00:21:18,556
Speaker 1: and around the world, and performing as well in different

344
00:21:18,596 --> 00:21:22,036
Speaker 1: theaters every single week, and I just said I'm done.

345
00:21:22,556 --> 00:21:24,996
Speaker 1: And it was easy to say I'm done, because when

346
00:21:25,036 --> 00:21:27,236
Speaker 1: the shit hits the fan. It's very easy to say,

347
00:21:27,476 --> 00:21:32,396
Speaker 1: this is your priority. Very easy. So when Meredith would

348
00:21:32,436 --> 00:21:37,356
Speaker 1: not bite, because why would she, because I was scaring

349
00:21:37,396 --> 00:21:39,756
Speaker 1: the shit out of her from a dead man's cell phone,

350
00:21:41,596 --> 00:21:44,476
Speaker 1: I said, look, I'm so sorry if I scared you,

351
00:21:44,836 --> 00:21:47,996
Speaker 1: I bring you peace. I simply need to know answers

352
00:21:48,076 --> 00:21:53,436
Speaker 1: because I don't have answers and I can't ask him anymore.

353
00:21:53,476 --> 00:21:55,276
Speaker 1: So I was wondering if you would speak to me,

354
00:21:57,156 --> 00:22:02,196
Speaker 1: and she bit, she bit, and I appreciate it. I

355
00:22:02,236 --> 00:22:06,476
Speaker 1: appreciate it. She was very brave. So I spoke to her.

356
00:22:06,836 --> 00:22:10,516
Speaker 1: And she's a single mother in Hawaii, and no, he

357
00:22:10,636 --> 00:22:15,676
Speaker 1: is not the father of her daughter. And I said,

358
00:22:15,716 --> 00:22:18,876
Speaker 1: what did he say about us? First of all, she

359
00:22:18,916 --> 00:22:21,876
Speaker 1: apologized up and down in sideways. She pretty much fessed

360
00:22:21,956 --> 00:22:23,876
Speaker 1: up to being a petty grifter because I had also

361
00:22:23,876 --> 00:22:26,996
Speaker 1: by then found porn threads of theirs that you know,

362
00:22:27,236 --> 00:22:29,356
Speaker 1: I was like these for being such a good writer,

363
00:22:29,436 --> 00:22:32,356
Speaker 1: you're a shitty porn writer, Michael, God bless. But she

364
00:22:32,436 --> 00:22:35,316
Speaker 1: became very human to me, very quickly, very human to me.

365
00:22:35,996 --> 00:22:39,676
Speaker 1: And she said that he told her that I was

366
00:22:39,676 --> 00:22:42,556
Speaker 1: bisexual in an open marriage, and I was like shit,

367
00:22:42,676 --> 00:22:44,716
Speaker 1: I'd be getting laid right now if that were true,

368
00:22:44,756 --> 00:22:48,236
Speaker 1: you know, right like in no, it's not my thing.

369
00:22:48,636 --> 00:22:50,276
Speaker 1: And by the end she sort of tried to meet

370
00:22:50,316 --> 00:22:52,356
Speaker 1: to it by saying that Michael promised to get her

371
00:22:52,396 --> 00:22:56,556
Speaker 1: a writing agent, and then he said, no, let's write

372
00:22:56,556 --> 00:22:59,596
Speaker 1: a porn novel together because we'll make a lot of

373
00:22:59,636 --> 00:23:04,476
Speaker 1: money and help our families. And I, again, I just

374
00:23:04,596 --> 00:23:08,916
Speaker 1: tried my best to keep up with her. I recorded

375
00:23:08,916 --> 00:23:12,116
Speaker 1: it like a bad podcast. It was over three hours.

376
00:23:12,196 --> 00:23:14,276
Speaker 1: I felt like good cop, bad cop because I kind

377
00:23:14,316 --> 00:23:16,276
Speaker 1: of tried to tell her, you know, ask her the

378
00:23:16,316 --> 00:23:19,556
Speaker 1: same question in seven different ways. And I guess she

379
00:23:19,676 --> 00:23:23,156
Speaker 1: felt that the truth would set her free, and so

380
00:23:23,956 --> 00:23:29,236
Speaker 1: I appreciated it. And after we spoke, I texted her

381
00:23:29,276 --> 00:23:31,596
Speaker 1: that she was really brave because she was because it's

382
00:23:31,596 --> 00:23:37,236
Speaker 1: hard to admit when you make choices that you know

383
00:23:37,476 --> 00:23:41,316
Speaker 1: somewhere in your recesses aren't okay too. They're just not

384
00:23:41,436 --> 00:23:44,596
Speaker 1: okay because she was using him and he was using her.

385
00:23:45,196 --> 00:23:47,236
Speaker 1: And I said to her, I think you guys canceled

386
00:23:47,276 --> 00:23:53,556
Speaker 1: each other out. You know, why do you think Michael

387
00:23:54,516 --> 00:23:56,796
Speaker 1: didn't work to hide all of this from you before

388
00:23:56,836 --> 00:23:59,956
Speaker 1: he passed away. He could have just asked you throughout

389
00:23:59,996 --> 00:24:04,236
Speaker 1: these boxes, throughout the passwords. You know, I think sometimes

390
00:24:04,276 --> 00:24:07,076
Speaker 1: maybe I don't know because I haven't died before, but

391
00:24:07,156 --> 00:24:09,116
Speaker 1: I don't think men think they're going to die sometimes

392
00:24:09,116 --> 00:24:12,716
Speaker 1: times I see, I don't think I was also asking

393
00:24:12,716 --> 00:24:16,196
Speaker 1: you to throw those away. Maybe psychologically, was him surrendering

394
00:24:16,236 --> 00:24:19,596
Speaker 1: to his death right. Yeah, that's a good way to

395
00:24:19,636 --> 00:24:24,636
Speaker 1: put it. Good semantic adjustment. Good enow' I'm just postulating here.

396
00:24:25,076 --> 00:24:28,756
Speaker 1: It's a good postulating. Take it. Look, I'm coming to

397
00:24:28,796 --> 00:24:32,436
Speaker 1: you for as much clarity and healing as as as

398
00:24:32,476 --> 00:24:36,396
Speaker 1: this story is bizarre and salacious, and I was compelled

399
00:24:36,436 --> 00:24:40,596
Speaker 1: to read because I needed to know his truth. I

400
00:24:40,716 --> 00:24:43,196
Speaker 1: needed to know his truth, and so I put the

401
00:24:43,196 --> 00:24:47,436
Speaker 1: most vulnerable, the most I don't even know what the

402
00:24:47,476 --> 00:24:50,596
Speaker 1: adjective is at this point, but the hardest stuff went

403
00:24:50,676 --> 00:24:52,916
Speaker 1: into one box and I called that the box of doom.

404
00:24:53,596 --> 00:24:58,516
Speaker 1: And it was just in my cold storage, near his ashes.

405
00:24:59,236 --> 00:25:01,796
Speaker 1: And a friend said to me, you don't want this anymore.

406
00:25:02,356 --> 00:25:05,516
Speaker 1: You don't want this anymore. So I borrowed my neighbors

407
00:25:05,596 --> 00:25:08,196
Speaker 1: Sola Stove. I hope you get like some sort of

408
00:25:08,356 --> 00:25:12,796
Speaker 1: endorsement from her soulas Stove and I burned them all,

409
00:25:13,236 --> 00:25:15,356
Speaker 1: and I actually one of the few things I actually

410
00:25:15,356 --> 00:25:18,916
Speaker 1: put on social media was I said, what no longer

411
00:25:18,956 --> 00:25:21,036
Speaker 1: serves you? You already need to know what you know.

412
00:25:21,956 --> 00:25:23,956
Speaker 1: It was an indication to my friends who did know

413
00:25:23,996 --> 00:25:26,396
Speaker 1: the story that I was not going to keep the

414
00:25:26,396 --> 00:25:29,596
Speaker 1: weight of his physical words anymore, because again, if I

415
00:25:29,636 --> 00:25:32,316
Speaker 1: wasn't going to use them against him, and I already

416
00:25:32,396 --> 00:25:34,516
Speaker 1: knew everything I needed to know, there was no reason

417
00:25:34,876 --> 00:25:38,476
Speaker 1: to keep them anymore. Yeah, at one point, when I

418
00:25:38,516 --> 00:25:41,396
Speaker 1: was snarky and shitty, I actually had to give his

419
00:25:41,476 --> 00:25:44,956
Speaker 1: ashes to his niece for safekeeping for a while because

420
00:25:44,956 --> 00:25:46,516
Speaker 1: I was afraid that I would dump them in an

421
00:25:46,596 --> 00:25:49,516
Speaker 1: alley and promptly forget which alley it was, or I

422
00:25:49,516 --> 00:25:52,836
Speaker 1: would put them in an overhead compartment in a plane

423
00:25:52,916 --> 00:25:57,156
Speaker 1: with no identifying information to fly away. And I was like, no,

424
00:25:57,276 --> 00:26:00,236
Speaker 1: you're an asshole, Susan. You can't do that. So I

425
00:26:00,356 --> 00:26:02,556
Speaker 1: kept So I did take them back, and then I

426
00:26:02,596 --> 00:26:05,676
Speaker 1: gently brought him over to Montrose Harbor on Lake Michigan

427
00:26:06,676 --> 00:26:08,796
Speaker 1: early in the morning, and that same day that I

428
00:26:09,116 --> 00:26:12,436
Speaker 1: and stuff, I also gently released him into the lake.

429
00:26:12,836 --> 00:26:15,716
Speaker 1: I'd forgotten that I had the right as the keeper

430
00:26:15,756 --> 00:26:21,636
Speaker 1: of that to respectfully release him. I mean, I think

431
00:26:21,676 --> 00:26:26,516
Speaker 1: what you've described is textbook definition of what it means

432
00:26:26,556 --> 00:26:30,436
Speaker 1: to have complicated grief and trying to put myself in

433
00:26:30,476 --> 00:26:33,436
Speaker 1: your shoes, I'm thinking. You know, death of any kind

434
00:26:33,636 --> 00:26:38,156
Speaker 1: presents so many unexpected changes for a person, Right, Yes,

435
00:26:38,396 --> 00:26:40,516
Speaker 1: we have to ask ourselves all sorts of questions, like

436
00:26:41,076 --> 00:26:43,116
Speaker 1: how are we going to live without this person? How

437
00:26:43,116 --> 00:26:45,916
Speaker 1: will we feel day to day? How will we change

438
00:26:45,956 --> 00:26:48,916
Speaker 1: in their absence? Right? Will we become different people? Right?

439
00:26:48,956 --> 00:26:52,796
Speaker 1: Our lives have morphed together, and it's hard to imagine

440
00:26:53,076 --> 00:26:58,956
Speaker 1: layering on top of all of that, this change, this revelation. Yeah,

441
00:26:59,036 --> 00:27:02,396
Speaker 1: I'm not just grieving my husband during the age of COVID.

442
00:27:02,476 --> 00:27:05,916
Speaker 1: I'm grieving the guy I thought he was so it's

443
00:27:06,076 --> 00:27:11,156
Speaker 1: too headed. And I remember touching his ashes one day saying,

444
00:27:11,316 --> 00:27:14,196
Speaker 1: I just want to remember. I'm trying to remember that

445
00:27:14,276 --> 00:27:17,196
Speaker 1: I love you. And Michael and I used to talk

446
00:27:17,276 --> 00:27:19,276
Speaker 1: right after he died. Then he kind of disappeared for

447
00:27:19,276 --> 00:27:22,836
Speaker 1: a while, and he said, very clearly, you do remember,

448
00:27:22,996 --> 00:27:27,556
Speaker 1: That's why you're sad, because there was so much joy

449
00:27:27,796 --> 00:27:32,636
Speaker 1: and so much heartache, and the only people who really

450
00:27:32,636 --> 00:27:36,716
Speaker 1: saw me lose it and kind of keep spiraling. Were

451
00:27:36,756 --> 00:27:40,156
Speaker 1: my best friends, and they were they were magnificent in

452
00:27:40,196 --> 00:27:47,076
Speaker 1: reminding me to reframe a lot of this and to

453
00:27:47,276 --> 00:27:50,396
Speaker 1: not blame myself. That was the thing that they worried

454
00:27:50,396 --> 00:27:53,916
Speaker 1: the most about, was that I would blame myself for it. Yeah.

455
00:27:55,316 --> 00:27:58,316
Speaker 1: A common refrain we hear when there's betrayal of some

456
00:27:58,396 --> 00:28:02,556
Speaker 1: kind is did I even know who this person was?

457
00:28:03,196 --> 00:28:07,676
Speaker 1: And the truth is, I imagine you probably did know

458
00:28:07,836 --> 00:28:10,276
Speaker 1: a lot about who Michael was, right. I imagine there

459
00:28:10,276 --> 00:28:15,756
Speaker 1: were many moments of genuine honesty that you shared. But

460
00:28:15,876 --> 00:28:19,076
Speaker 1: I wonder like, are you able to appreciate or are

461
00:28:19,076 --> 00:28:22,876
Speaker 1: you able to see that complexity, that potential complexity against

462
00:28:22,876 --> 00:28:27,796
Speaker 1: the backdrop of such a large deceit? Yes, because the

463
00:28:27,836 --> 00:28:30,356
Speaker 1: minute you understand the duality and people and why they

464
00:28:30,356 --> 00:28:32,876
Speaker 1: are the way they are, I mean, is that right?

465
00:28:32,996 --> 00:28:37,036
Speaker 1: Is it possible to have that duality and both are true?

466
00:28:37,436 --> 00:28:40,036
Speaker 1: Because I am not black and white in my thinking,

467
00:28:40,156 --> 00:28:45,356
Speaker 1: and I've always gone toward the gray. And even in

468
00:28:45,436 --> 00:28:49,916
Speaker 1: figuring him out, we have a banner over our front

469
00:28:49,916 --> 00:28:52,596
Speaker 1: door that says do hard things, and I was like, well,

470
00:28:52,596 --> 00:28:54,076
Speaker 1: this isn't going to be easy, but I'm going to

471
00:28:54,156 --> 00:28:57,596
Speaker 1: do hard things, And so I go toward the danger,

472
00:28:58,156 --> 00:29:01,236
Speaker 1: and I go toward what's difficult to understand and try

473
00:29:01,276 --> 00:29:04,156
Speaker 1: to make sense out of it. And again, I did

474
00:29:04,236 --> 00:29:06,956
Speaker 1: not want to vilify or to mean my husband, even

475
00:29:06,996 --> 00:29:09,436
Speaker 1: at my worst with my best friends. And he was

476
00:29:09,476 --> 00:29:11,836
Speaker 1: an asshole, you know what I mean? Because he wasn't.

477
00:29:12,236 --> 00:29:18,916
Speaker 1: He was a guy who did feel profound struggles in

478
00:29:18,956 --> 00:29:21,516
Speaker 1: his heart and in his brain and in his actions.

479
00:29:22,196 --> 00:29:25,476
Speaker 1: It showed up again and again in his writing. Yeah,

480
00:29:25,516 --> 00:29:28,636
Speaker 1: you know, your story makes me reflect on how much

481
00:29:28,676 --> 00:29:32,916
Speaker 1: each of us values knowing the truth and life. Would

482
00:29:32,916 --> 00:29:35,516
Speaker 1: you have preferred to just remained ignorant of all this?

483
00:29:36,436 --> 00:29:39,236
Speaker 1: If you could go back, would you not have opened

484
00:29:39,276 --> 00:29:41,836
Speaker 1: the boxes? Tell me, tell me more about that. Part

485
00:29:41,836 --> 00:29:45,476
Speaker 1: of my honoring him was honoring his directive. But in

486
00:29:45,556 --> 00:29:48,596
Speaker 1: order to honor his things, I had to make sure

487
00:29:49,316 --> 00:29:52,956
Speaker 1: that I looked at his things. Yeah, but's Susan, I mean,

488
00:29:53,036 --> 00:29:56,716
Speaker 1: you're you're you're talking about still wanting to honor, to

489
00:29:56,836 --> 00:30:01,476
Speaker 1: honor him and honor his boxes. In my view, he's

490
00:30:01,516 --> 00:30:04,996
Speaker 1: not deserving of that honor right now. And so I

491
00:30:05,036 --> 00:30:09,436
Speaker 1: want to know from your perspective, from Susan's psychological perspect active,

492
00:30:09,916 --> 00:30:12,316
Speaker 1: was it better for you to have known that this

493
00:30:12,396 --> 00:30:14,836
Speaker 1: was the case. People fall on different parts of the

494
00:30:14,876 --> 00:30:19,396
Speaker 1: spectrum in terms of seeking truth versus protecting their own

495
00:30:19,596 --> 00:30:22,556
Speaker 1: sanity and psychological well being. So I'm just wondering where

496
00:30:22,596 --> 00:30:25,956
Speaker 1: you fall on this spectrum. I was betrayed in my

497
00:30:25,996 --> 00:30:27,756
Speaker 1: first marriage, and I was told I was a crazy

498
00:30:27,796 --> 00:30:30,276
Speaker 1: pregnant woman, and I was told I was postpartum. I'm like,

499
00:30:30,316 --> 00:30:32,516
Speaker 1: I don't feel like a crazy pregnant woman. I don't

500
00:30:32,516 --> 00:30:37,796
Speaker 1: feel postpartum. And then in this marriage again, the same

501
00:30:37,836 --> 00:30:41,956
Speaker 1: thing happened, and the common denominator is me. So for me,

502
00:30:42,316 --> 00:30:44,556
Speaker 1: when they say the truth will set you free, in

503
00:30:44,596 --> 00:30:49,676
Speaker 1: my case, it's only going to help me traverse a

504
00:30:49,796 --> 00:30:54,436
Speaker 1: future path of honesty and listen to my red flags.

505
00:30:54,716 --> 00:30:56,756
Speaker 1: Because I was right. I'd love to have been crazy,

506
00:30:56,996 --> 00:30:59,556
Speaker 1: but I wasn't. I was right both times, and I

507
00:30:59,636 --> 00:31:03,516
Speaker 1: was the common denominator you're saying. When you raise concerns

508
00:31:03,516 --> 00:31:06,756
Speaker 1: with Michael, he would say, oh, you're just being crazy, Susan.

509
00:31:06,836 --> 00:31:09,476
Speaker 1: He would be as dismissive in that way. So you

510
00:31:09,516 --> 00:31:13,236
Speaker 1: were led to believe you were the problem. Absolutely, And

511
00:31:13,316 --> 00:31:18,516
Speaker 1: now I'm starting to understand why certain behaviors in our

512
00:31:18,556 --> 00:31:21,956
Speaker 1: marriage made no sense to me. Sex was really hard

513
00:31:21,996 --> 00:31:24,316
Speaker 1: for me to talk about, and said, what happened to

514
00:31:24,356 --> 00:31:26,556
Speaker 1: our sex life? And this is a man who courted

515
00:31:26,556 --> 00:31:28,596
Speaker 1: me with sex and coach bags. I don't know why

516
00:31:28,636 --> 00:31:30,196
Speaker 1: the coach bags. By the way, I have plenty if

517
00:31:30,196 --> 00:31:32,316
Speaker 1: he'd like some. You can really only use one purse

518
00:31:32,356 --> 00:31:35,996
Speaker 1: at one time. But that I had said, what happened

519
00:31:35,996 --> 00:31:38,476
Speaker 1: to our sex life? But again, I wanted to be

520
00:31:39,876 --> 00:31:42,476
Speaker 1: super gentle with Michael because this is a man of

521
00:31:42,476 --> 00:31:46,756
Speaker 1: a certain age, you know, I thought to myself, testosterone changes.

522
00:31:47,596 --> 00:31:50,356
Speaker 1: Men are visual creatures. I'll go back to boot camp.

523
00:31:50,716 --> 00:31:52,836
Speaker 1: But I wish I could have given you a SoundBite.

524
00:31:53,236 --> 00:31:56,556
Speaker 1: But because he couldn't give me one, I just kind

525
00:31:56,556 --> 00:31:58,956
Speaker 1: of thought, oh well. And then he got sick in

526
00:31:58,956 --> 00:32:01,596
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, and I thought, you're an asshole, Susan. He

527
00:32:01,676 --> 00:32:04,956
Speaker 1: was sick the whole time. You're just an asshole. I

528
00:32:05,076 --> 00:32:09,796
Speaker 1: always put it on myself. I always wanted to make

529
00:32:09,836 --> 00:32:13,316
Speaker 1: sure that he never felt less than I had to

530
00:32:13,316 --> 00:32:16,276
Speaker 1: always be very gentle with him because his father was

531
00:32:16,316 --> 00:32:19,476
Speaker 1: so critical of him growing up that I felt I

532
00:32:19,516 --> 00:32:22,196
Speaker 1: don't want to add to his plate. I'm his wife.

533
00:32:22,316 --> 00:32:24,276
Speaker 1: I want to be one of the good guys, not

534
00:32:24,316 --> 00:32:27,756
Speaker 1: one of the bad guys. So at the very least

535
00:32:28,796 --> 00:32:32,276
Speaker 1: I wasn't crazy, And at the most I got to

536
00:32:32,356 --> 00:32:34,916
Speaker 1: understand a man in death that I didn't get the

537
00:32:34,916 --> 00:32:38,076
Speaker 1: opportunity to understand in life. And yes, I could have

538
00:32:38,116 --> 00:32:41,236
Speaker 1: been pithy and just stopped fighting around messing life as short.

539
00:32:41,236 --> 00:32:43,476
Speaker 1: We should be together and you're perfect, And it could

540
00:32:43,516 --> 00:32:46,916
Speaker 1: have been at the end, you're awesome. You're awesome beyond words.

541
00:32:47,156 --> 00:32:50,196
Speaker 1: But that's a story he wrote, and that isn't the truth.

542
00:32:50,436 --> 00:32:53,596
Speaker 1: And I do appreciate the truth, no matter how difficult

543
00:32:53,636 --> 00:32:57,796
Speaker 1: it is to hear or to discover. How have you

544
00:32:57,916 --> 00:33:10,316
Speaker 1: changed through this process? I tend to remember that people

545
00:33:10,356 --> 00:33:16,796
Speaker 1: who on the surface might seem rude or inconsiderate or whatever,

546
00:33:16,876 --> 00:33:20,196
Speaker 1: that they are going through something that I don't know about.

547
00:33:20,836 --> 00:33:24,916
Speaker 1: And I've usually pretty much given people the benefit of

548
00:33:24,956 --> 00:33:27,356
Speaker 1: the doubt. But now I really give people the benefit

549
00:33:27,356 --> 00:33:31,356
Speaker 1: of the doubt. I really do. I'm just interesting because

550
00:33:31,396 --> 00:33:35,716
Speaker 1: you could equally imagine someone it's likely to imagine someone

551
00:33:35,756 --> 00:33:39,156
Speaker 1: who no longer gives people the benefit of the doubt

552
00:33:39,156 --> 00:33:41,036
Speaker 1: because you had given Michael the benefit of the doubt

553
00:33:41,076 --> 00:33:45,276
Speaker 1: and then you were betrayed. I was reminded though. I

554
00:33:45,316 --> 00:33:48,356
Speaker 1: was doing a zoom call to China and I knocked

555
00:33:48,556 --> 00:33:52,156
Speaker 1: over by mistake all these office supplies in a box,

556
00:33:52,476 --> 00:33:53,796
Speaker 1: and I was like, are you kidding me? I'm going

557
00:33:53,836 --> 00:33:55,516
Speaker 1: to start off my day like this, goddamn it, you know.

558
00:33:55,996 --> 00:33:58,516
Speaker 1: And then I looked and there's this little piece of

559
00:33:58,516 --> 00:34:02,116
Speaker 1: paper and it was in with Michael's office supplies, which

560
00:34:02,116 --> 00:34:04,596
Speaker 1: he had a myriad of, and it says, husband, I

561
00:34:04,676 --> 00:34:07,156
Speaker 1: love you. And it was a note for me which

562
00:34:07,196 --> 00:34:09,596
Speaker 1: I had left him all over the damn house. And

563
00:34:09,636 --> 00:34:11,396
Speaker 1: I thought I had burned all of them in the fire.

564
00:34:12,236 --> 00:34:15,196
Speaker 1: I thought there's nothing left to discover. And what I

565
00:34:15,236 --> 00:34:20,196
Speaker 1: discovered was husband, I love you. So you know, dummy,

566
00:34:20,276 --> 00:34:23,716
Speaker 1: it all ends up with love. And maybe I grieve,

567
00:34:23,756 --> 00:34:27,476
Speaker 1: and maybe I'm angry because I loved him, And yes,

568
00:34:27,516 --> 00:34:30,196
Speaker 1: I kept my side of the street clean as best

569
00:34:30,236 --> 00:34:32,796
Speaker 1: I could through our marriage. And I would have liked

570
00:34:32,836 --> 00:34:37,676
Speaker 1: to know of a set of rules that that involved

571
00:34:37,756 --> 00:34:40,596
Speaker 1: me that I was not apparently privy too, so that

572
00:34:40,636 --> 00:34:47,276
Speaker 1: can hurt. But now the way I love is and

573
00:34:47,316 --> 00:34:49,436
Speaker 1: maybe he taught me this because he didn't have the

574
00:34:49,476 --> 00:34:53,916
Speaker 1: ability to love freely and honestly. Now I love freely

575
00:34:54,036 --> 00:34:58,316
Speaker 1: and honestly, so he gave me a real gift. His

576
00:34:58,476 --> 00:35:01,716
Speaker 1: betrayal gave me a really big gift. And this is

577
00:35:01,756 --> 00:35:06,156
Speaker 1: my discovery in this moment that it was a gift. Sorry,

578
00:35:06,196 --> 00:35:12,596
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna get a tissue now, of course. So beautiful, Wow,

579
00:35:14,516 --> 00:35:16,676
Speaker 1: tell me, can you just tell me about your new love.

580
00:35:18,876 --> 00:35:21,396
Speaker 1: I've loved my friend about Fisher for thirty years. He's

581
00:35:21,396 --> 00:35:24,916
Speaker 1: been a great friend, and something changed and now he

582
00:35:24,956 --> 00:35:27,356
Speaker 1: looks at me the way I feel about him, and

583
00:35:28,036 --> 00:35:31,876
Speaker 1: it's a super honest and candid love. And sometimes I

584
00:35:31,916 --> 00:35:34,236
Speaker 1: have to be super careful when I answer a question

585
00:35:35,076 --> 00:35:39,676
Speaker 1: only because it's never been asked of me before. You know,

586
00:35:39,836 --> 00:35:46,076
Speaker 1: I've never been asked those kind of questions, questions everything

587
00:35:46,276 --> 00:35:48,156
Speaker 1: from well, I mean, one of the first things I

588
00:35:48,196 --> 00:35:50,436
Speaker 1: said to him was once we started dating, was what's

589
00:35:50,476 --> 00:35:55,836
Speaker 1: your greatest shame? Like? Because I was like, what are

590
00:35:55,836 --> 00:35:59,396
Speaker 1: you going past words? Oh? He point blank said, this

591
00:35:59,436 --> 00:36:01,676
Speaker 1: is my debt, this is what's on my desk. Feel

592
00:36:01,676 --> 00:36:03,516
Speaker 1: free to look through all of it. Here's the people.

593
00:36:03,516 --> 00:36:05,676
Speaker 1: I mean. He couldn't have been more honest with me

594
00:36:05,956 --> 00:36:13,116
Speaker 1: because our friendship has he's felt he has felt very

595
00:36:13,156 --> 00:36:15,796
Speaker 1: responsible for the choices that he's made in his life,

596
00:36:15,836 --> 00:36:18,996
Speaker 1: good and bad. He's felt very responsible for them, and that,

597
00:36:19,116 --> 00:36:23,916
Speaker 1: to me, honesty and truth is sexy. Yeah, it's super sexy.

598
00:36:24,036 --> 00:36:27,076
Speaker 1: So I'm there now. Oh I love that so much.

599
00:36:28,116 --> 00:36:34,476
Speaker 1: It fills my heart with warmth. Final question, why did

600
00:36:34,516 --> 00:36:38,516
Speaker 1: you decide to share the story with me now? I

601
00:36:38,556 --> 00:36:42,756
Speaker 1: am sharing this now because I feel like it will

602
00:36:42,796 --> 00:36:48,236
Speaker 1: support my healing and perhaps support others. Secrets are toxic

603
00:36:49,316 --> 00:36:53,076
Speaker 1: and they eat at you, and there is always someone

604
00:36:53,076 --> 00:36:56,476
Speaker 1: who will listen. And when you bring darkness into the light,

605
00:36:56,556 --> 00:36:59,716
Speaker 1: it is no longer dark, and you have red flags

606
00:37:00,796 --> 00:37:05,356
Speaker 1: chase that because your gut is right. So and I'm

607
00:37:05,396 --> 00:37:08,276
Speaker 1: also your poster child because also I'm healing on the

608
00:37:08,316 --> 00:37:10,596
Speaker 1: other side, and I can be your poster child of

609
00:37:10,636 --> 00:37:14,316
Speaker 1: hope because if I can love again after going through

610
00:37:14,756 --> 00:37:18,236
Speaker 1: a real shit storm, I think anybody can. So when

611
00:37:18,276 --> 00:37:22,156
Speaker 1: you say people become bitter after their divorces, I say, no,

612
00:37:22,276 --> 00:37:24,956
Speaker 1: they become smarter. And I'm not saying that you're not

613
00:37:24,996 --> 00:37:27,596
Speaker 1: going to go through a bitter path, but all these

614
00:37:27,636 --> 00:37:30,996
Speaker 1: feelings are temporary, and I have to have learned something

615
00:37:31,036 --> 00:37:33,756
Speaker 1: that I can pass on to make somebody else's path

616
00:37:33,796 --> 00:37:57,436
Speaker 1: a little easier. Well, here's my question. Is it so

617
00:37:57,596 --> 00:38:02,036
Speaker 1: unique to find out after someone's dead of their betrayal.

618
00:38:02,436 --> 00:38:04,956
Speaker 1: It really isn't, although it would have been nice to

619
00:38:04,956 --> 00:38:07,516
Speaker 1: find out during the time he was sick that it

620
00:38:07,556 --> 00:38:10,396
Speaker 1: had happened because my friend, he said, you could just

621
00:38:10,676 --> 00:38:14,396
Speaker 1: call up Meredith and go, girl, come get your boyfriend.

622
00:38:14,916 --> 00:38:18,316
Speaker 1: He is sick. You know what I mean? Like we again,

623
00:38:18,516 --> 00:38:25,316
Speaker 1: My friends are awesome. Hey, thanks for tuning in. I

624
00:38:25,356 --> 00:38:27,316
Speaker 1: wanted to let you know that next week we're going

625
00:38:27,356 --> 00:38:30,476
Speaker 1: to be mixing things up a bit. Recently, I had

626
00:38:30,516 --> 00:38:33,996
Speaker 1: to confront an unexpected change of my own. It's a

627
00:38:34,076 --> 00:38:37,796
Speaker 1: deeply personal story, one I never planned to share so publicly,

628
00:38:38,636 --> 00:38:40,916
Speaker 1: but then I realize that's kind of what this show

629
00:38:41,076 --> 00:38:44,116
Speaker 1: is all about. So I asked my producer to turn

630
00:38:44,116 --> 00:38:47,796
Speaker 1: on the mic and interview me. My heart sank. I

631
00:38:47,836 --> 00:38:51,396
Speaker 1: was like, you have got to be kidding me. How

632
00:38:51,476 --> 00:38:54,836
Speaker 1: is this happening again? Like on exactly the same day

633
00:38:54,876 --> 00:38:58,196
Speaker 1: as last time? Like it just it didn't make any sense.

634
00:38:59,116 --> 00:39:01,476
Speaker 1: Tune in next week to hear about when life threw

635
00:39:01,556 --> 00:39:15,396
Speaker 1: me my own Slight Change of Plans. A Slight Change

636
00:39:15,396 --> 00:39:18,236
Speaker 1: of Plans is created, written, and executive produced by me

637
00:39:18,396 --> 00:39:21,396
Speaker 1: Maya Schunker. The best part of creating this show is

638
00:39:21,436 --> 00:39:25,036
Speaker 1: getting to collaborate with my formidable Slight Change family. This

639
00:39:25,156 --> 00:39:29,516
Speaker 1: includes Tyler Green, our senior producer, Jen Guera, our senior editor,

640
00:39:29,876 --> 00:39:34,036
Speaker 1: Ben Holliday, our sound engineer, Emily Rostek, our associate producer,

641
00:39:34,236 --> 00:39:38,196
Speaker 1: and Mia Lavelle, our executive producer. Louis Skara wrote our

642
00:39:38,236 --> 00:39:41,396
Speaker 1: delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals.

643
00:39:42,236 --> 00:39:45,076
Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries,

644
00:39:45,156 --> 00:39:49,436
Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there. Thanks also to Laurie Santos,

645
00:39:49,516 --> 00:39:52,996
Speaker 1: Michael Lewis, Ramsay Cabaz and Scott Menki who have been

646
00:39:52,996 --> 00:39:56,796
Speaker 1: wonderful friends and incredible supporters of this show, and of

647
00:39:56,796 --> 00:40:00,436
Speaker 1: course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can

648
00:40:00,476 --> 00:40:03,276
Speaker 1: follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor

649
00:40:03,276 --> 00:40:06,876
Speaker 1: Maya Schunker, and please remember to subscribe, share and rate

650
00:40:06,916 --> 00:40:09,316
Speaker 1: the show to help get the word out. Seeing next

651
00:40:09,356 --> 00:40:09,516
Speaker 1: week