WEBVTT - How to Beat the Thought Police 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.960 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:14.960 Works dot com. Hey wasn't gonna suff up all your mind. 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:17.680 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. Julie, 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:20.960 do you ever find yourself like thinking thoughts in a 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:23.439 in one circumstance or another, and you you kind of 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.239 have that paranoia where you you you hope that nobody 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:29.400 can read your thoughts. Wall, I mean there's a thought 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:31.720 bubble over my head at all times? Right, Well, no, 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:35.560 but I was kind of under that assumption. Well, yeah, 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:37.280 if you if you read enough comics, I guess you'd 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:39.120 fall into the thing. But but there are times where 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:40.640 you kind of feel like there's a thought bubble. And 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.440 to a certain extent, we all have tells, we all 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:49.080 have their various subtle and not so subtle cues regarding 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:52.479 what we're thinking about. Um. But but I have at 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:54.920 times found myself in situations where I like, I'll think 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:56.520 of something and I'll be and I'll do like, oh, 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:59.040 I hope nobody could hear hear my thoughts. Like in reaction, 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:01.680 I actually know exactly you're talking about it those intense 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:05.680 moments and you're thinking really really just very intensely about 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:09.000 something and it seems as though whatever is going on 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:11.760 in your head is just booming out there. Yeah, and 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:14.000 you look up and I know it's that brief moment 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:17.200 where you think, did they hear inside my head? Yeah? 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:20.640 Or like sometimes like my brain anyway, I'll I'll find 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:23.000 myself in a situation and I'll think, what is the 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:25.240 worst possible thing I could think at this this moment, 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:26.640 And then I'll think it, and that would be like, brain, 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:29.360 what are you doing? There could be people listening or 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:33.679 watching in or or reading you. So your concern is 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:38.200 that it's not an although in the future we're talking 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:42.920 with twenty years, perhaps even those thoughts, those dark thoughts, 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:47.600 might be revealed. Yeah, exactly to everyone. Yeah, because the 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:51.600 thought police do not exist as a you know and 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:56.080 in its sci fi sense yet, But the police, law 0:01:56.160 --> 0:02:00.080 enforcement employers, um family members are of course there are 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:04.600 interested in what people are thinking. And we continue to 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:09.799 roll out scientific and pseudoscientific ways to uh to guess 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:12.959 at what is going on inside someone else's mind. Yeah, 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:15.440 because I mean, the big mystery for all of us 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:17.720 is whether or not someone is telling the truth or 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:19.960 telling a lie. And we want to scratch at that 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:24.480 as much as possible and genome Sciences and Policy. Laura 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:29.480 Nita Farrene says that neuroscience is already influencing the courtroom, 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:33.079 at least with terminology. She had brought up some examples 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:34.919 at the World Science Festival in the panel on euro 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:37.160 Science in Law that you attended Brains on Trial. That 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:39.000 one was hosted by Alan Alda, and it was it 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:42.320 was quite excellent, And she says that people say things 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:44.880 like I didn't consciously choose to do the thing that 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:47.440 I'm accused of. My brain made me do it. My 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:51.000 brain made me do it, or I have a predisposition 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:56.440 to addiction and therefore when this occurred, it wasn't my brain, 0:02:56.520 --> 0:03:00.000 it was the brain of another person under different circumstances. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.800 Is so we already see sort of the leaking of 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:07.200 neuroscience into the courtroom, into law. So now it's just 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:10.520 a matter of looking at both the past and the 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:13.040 present future to try to figure out how all this 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:15.320 is going to settle in what sort of technology is 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:17.800 going to shape it. Yeah, that you mentioned of the 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:19.960 whole my brain made me do it, or there's something 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:22.880 in my in my brain that may be responsible for 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:24.480 this and I didn't have a say in it. It's 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.240 interesting because that all gets into this whole the mind 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:30.480 body problem, the the idea that a brain is a 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:33.919 physical thing and a mind is a non physical thing. 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:36.760 Our consciousness is a is a is a creation of mind, 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:40.240 and our mind is a creation of brain. And uh, 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:43.480 and we find ourselves saying, hey, I'm a mind. Don't 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.240 don't try the mind based on what the brain is doing. Person, 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:48.520 Keep the brain, not the mind. Like it gets quickly. 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:51.360 It is complex as any pondering we may have about 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:54.720 the nature of consciousness and then the nature of self. Yeah, 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:56.400 there's a lot of pointing of fingers because you could 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:58.880 even say, well wait, wait, wait, is the brain messing 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:03.120 up my mind my concept of reality? Yeah? Um yeah. 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:07.320 So that's why all this becomes incredibly interesting when you 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:10.400 start to look at fm r I technology, um and 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:13.960 and some other technologies that we will discuss today. But 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:16.320 in order to do that, we have to, of course 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:19.119 travel back to the past, and actually not even the past, 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:22.880 because some of these things are already in use. Yeah. Now, 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:25.760 of course we're talking about science. We're talking about science, 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:30.839 the use of science in investigations, in interviews and interrogations 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:36.080 and in criminal investigations and in trials, and we've always 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:38.760 used science for these means. I mean it's uh, you 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:42.320 can find examples where we would use phrenology of the 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:45.080 measuring of skulls, you know, totally bogus, But for a 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:49.200 brief time, this seemed like a logical way to scientifically 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:51.840 study what would make one person a criminal and in 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:55.719 another person not UM fingerprinting. We did a whole episode 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:57.640 on this. If you want to really get into the 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:02.200 history of fingerprinting and that the the validity of fingerprinting 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:05.560 when it comes to criminal investigation, do check that episode out, because, 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:08.520 as we discussed there, a lot of the fingerprinting science 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:11.760 isn't as as solid as we used to think it 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:14.080 it is and UM and a lot of its power 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:15.680 in the courtroom had to do with the fact that 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:21.400 it was presented as powerful information. Yeah, it's just the 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:24.520 cell of it. Also, you've seen you know, truth terums 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:29.080 have had their day psychotherapy, UM polygraphs, which will discuss 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:32.320 here momentarily. And now we're increasingly in the age of 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:36.080 DNA evidence and UH, and certainly DNA events has done 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:38.000 a lot of good. It is it has been able 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:41.400 to to reverse decisions that were made based on faulty evidence. 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:43.799 In the past, we seen to be the the Innocence 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.920 Project and uh, and then we're we're already in this 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:51.720 age and of neuroimaging in the courtroom in criminal investigations, 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:53.479 and we're only going to see more and more of 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:55.440 it over the next ten years. I did want to 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:57.480 point out that truth Sorum is actually used in some 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:00.800 parts of the world, and truth Sirum is part of 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:05.960 something called narco analysis, and this is administering psycho active 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:10.120 drugs for those interrogation purposes. Um. Most people are probably 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:13.960 familiar with the term sodium pentathal and this is the 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:19.560 quote unquote truth serum. However, it doesn't exactly extract truthful 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:22.440 statements from people. In fact, there's this idea that it 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:26.480 might make people talk, but people are still really responsive 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:30.360 to suggestions, so they're still going to tell you, um, 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:32.720 what they think that you're trying to chease out of them, 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:36.360 or they're still conscious that they're expected to deliver something 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:38.640 to someone. Yeah, I mean, in that regard, it's not 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:41.240 much different from torture. The idea that if you inflict 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:44.040 physical pain on somebody, they will tell you anything you 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:46.040 want to hear to make the pain stop. And therefore 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:50.280 it's it's it's a largely unreliable form of interrogation. And 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:53.040 that's the problem that we're going to discuss two with 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:56.520 all these different technologies is that at some point there 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.480 is a margin of error and there's a problem here 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:03.279 interpreting the results. And so polygraphs are a great example 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:06.760 of this. Yeah, let's let's get into into polygraphs. Now, polygraphs, 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:08.920 of course the lie detection tests. Most people are familiar 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:12.480 with this from TV, where it has been just used 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:16.160 to death and every television show imaginable um. And even 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:19.760 when it's used in a more realistic fashion, we still 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:22.080 are bringing in all these preconceived notions about what it 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:24.120 consists of and how reliable it may or may not be. 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:28.160 So a polygraph is essentially a seismograph for the nervous 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:31.960 system and measures of physiological responses such as heart rate, 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:36.960 blood pressure, sweatiness, um, breathing. Uh So, when you're anxious, 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:41.200 you're angry, you're in pain, you're emotionally aroused, these measures 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:44.640 spike automatically. Generally it's four to six censers. They're attached 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:48.480 to the body um and uh. And again it's breathing rate, pulse, 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:51.640 blood pressure, perspiration, and sometimes they'll also record things like 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:54.560 arm and the leg movements. And this is being used 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:57.400 in the CIA as well as n s A, so 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:00.880 there various agencies that actually used this. The problem with 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:04.280 the polygraph is that you can actually beat it. And 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:07.720 if you can train yourself to think in a certain 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:10.800 manner or to do a couple of tricks, it's not 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:14.040 a problem actually to pass one of these. So if 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:16.920 they're testing you with this polygraph device, uh, they of 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:19.240 course need to have a baseline reading. They need to 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:22.000 ask you stuff like, hey, is your name Julie Douglas 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:24.080 and you say yes, and they see what that reading is. 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:27.160 They say are you wearing a striped shirt today? And 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:29.720 you say yes, yes, And then they say are you 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.600 the Queen of Mars And you would say no, thanks 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:36.720 lgar yes, So whichever the case may be, um and 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:38.440 and this would tell let them know, okay, these are 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:40.800 what our readings are when she is not lying to us. 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:43.280 And then they would also ask you, you know, they 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:45.800 would ask you some things too that you're expected to lie, 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:48.160 like have you ever killed a bug? Well? I don't 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:50.040 know that's not a good one. Well, have you ever stolen? 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:53.440 Have your money stolen money? Yes? Have you ever lied 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:57.880 to your parents? No? No? So they yeah, they begin 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:01.080 to these universal questions that they know eventually you'll lie 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:04.160 on just to get again that baseline of what is 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:06.120 a lilakla? What does all I look like with this person? 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:08.280 What does the truth look like with this person? And 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:10.320 now let's ask him the stuff we want to know. 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:12.920 Have you ever seen the inside of the house? Stuff 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:16.680 work safe, you know, things like that, and and see 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:18.280 that would be something yeah, they would test for and 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:22.080 they would compare that reading to these other baseline readings. Yeah, 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:24.719 so what's cool about that line baseline is that is 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:27.040 the one that you can gain so that it scrambles 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:30.000 everything else. Right now, technically it is possible for someone 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:34.440 to to simply not have a strong physical response to line. 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.280 People have been light detection tests before with this kind 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:40.760 of effect, but it's it's more difficult. This is the 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:42.960 kind of thing you would expect Hannibal Elector to do, 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:47.960 you know, more advanced control or or or lack of 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:50.080 physical involvement with like it's coming out of your mouth. 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.280 But but yeah, the baseline is is an much easier 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:55.080 thing to screw up. And that's where say the thumb 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:58.040 tac method comes into place. So you would put a 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:00.280 thumb tack in your shoe and then when or asked 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:03.080 one of these baseline questions, you jab that sucker into 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:07.040 your toe, which causes some distress, and then it messes 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:09.320 up their baseline. It looks like you're getting this high 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:13.520 reading for something that is a known truth or aknown lie. Okay, 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:17.560 so the first time you lie, you you just name 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:21.440 yourself so that your physiological response is just so active 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:24.640 that it just that seismograph goes nuts. So the next 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:26.600 time that you lie, yeah, it's not gonna be there 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:30.080 is strong. They're like, oh, well that they that didn't 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:32.120 mess them up at all. It'll just look at the readings. 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:35.080 Now that one of the problems with with this method 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.400 is that some polygraph tests will testers will make you 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:41.679 take your shoes off. So uh, it's it's become that 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:44.400 common of of of a method. But who's to say 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:47.920 you can't bite your tongue exactly. So there are other 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:50.760 means of causing yourself a little bit of physical discomfort 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:55.000 um to to allow you to mess with those baselines. Um. Now, 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:57.679 there are other bits of folklore that are out there. 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:00.840 For instance, some people say that you can take certain drugs, 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:04.160 you can rub any perst print on your fingertips, or 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:06.360 you can use hypnosis. You can are just wiggling your 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:10.240 toes or flexing your arms, coughing. But these these cannot 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:12.160 not to work that well. Oh, I see, So the 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:15.920 anti perseprint is so that it reduced the galvanic response, 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:19.520 that sweating response. Right. Yeah, But but what I've been 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:22.040 reading is that that really doesn't help you any and 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.040 that's just only one of the things that it's testing 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:25.920 for anyway, So you still can't help it if your 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:30.000 heart goes nets. Another thing that I have read is that, um, 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:33.640 just it's a mind over matter issue, and that if 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:39.440 you can try to um I think really warm and 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:44.040 cozy thoughts, calming thoughts while you're lying, is that you 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:45.920 may still get a little bit of a you know, 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:48.440 some action on that seismograph, but it may not be 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:53.880 nearly as pronounced if you weren't trying to essentially meditate 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:57.160 during this process. Yes, so it's still used in a 0:11:57.240 --> 0:12:00.320 number of agencies. It's used by by employers, but in 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.439 most states you don't actually see it in courts anymore 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:06.440 because it doesn't pass scientific standards of admission in the courtroom. 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:09.679 I was looking at a particular website anti polygraph dot org, 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:12.679 which is which is generally aimed at its use by 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.920 employers and by by these agencies, and they point out 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:19.360 a number of interesting things about polygraph tests about how 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:22.600 so much of it isn't even about the looking at 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:26.520 readings and comparing them, comparing these baseline results to the 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:29.080 results of these questions there, but they're bringing in all 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:32.040 the other aspects of interrogation. So for instance, they're looking 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:34.080 for things like, oh, did the did the individuals show 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:37.240 up late? Do they seem hesitant? What does their voice 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:39.400 sound like when they answer no to this question or 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:42.120 answer yes to this one? So, and then they're also 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.520 trying to get subtle admissions out of out of the 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:49.200 subject as well during the course of the test. So 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:52.800 in a in a sense, it's still a straight up interrogation, 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:55.800 like a straight up police uh you know, bright light 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:57.840 in the eyes kind of a thing, except they have 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:02.160 this uh, this pseudo scientific method on the table that's 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:05.040 legitimizing and all. Okay, So the readings that they're taking. 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:06.960 That's a bit of a sham, right, The whole thing 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:09.360 is a sham. The idea is that it's a psychological 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.480 tool that they can use on their employees. So if 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:15.000 that employee knows although I might get tested this month, 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:16.920 then maybe he or she is going to mind their 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:19.439 p's and ques a bit more. That's the idea by 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:23.000 the agents that that's that's what detractors argue, and that's 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.400 certainly what antipolographed or argue. So they have a lot 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:29.560 of materials on the website, including a more detailed information 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:31.760 about how it works and how to beat it and 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:33.920 when when I and I say how to beat it again, 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:36.880 not just talking about the physical test, but the the 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.960 the overall testing environment that is used by various agents. 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:44.160 All Right, Uh, interesting stuff to check out. Let's take 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:46.360 a quick break, and when we get back, we are 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:49.079 going to talk about the role of f M R 0:13:49.160 --> 0:14:01.640 I and lie detection. All Right, we're back, and we've 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:04.079 been talking about the thought police. We've been talking about 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:07.840 methods of telling whether a person is lying or telling 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:10.439 the truth. Uh, and when. Just as an aside, one 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.760 individual who famously passed the polygraph test, Gary Ridgeway, the 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.440 Green River Killer. And of course, now we were in 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:18.079 the age of the of m R I S and 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:21.280 f m RI I S talking about magnetic residence imaging 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:25.120 and functional magnetic residence imaging. Now we've just we've talked 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:27.360 about f m R S a lot on this show 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:30.080 because anytime we're talking about the brain and current brain research, 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.240 we're we're interested in knowing what's going on inside the mind, 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:35.960 what parts of the brain are being used to process 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:40.280 various things. UH and fm RI I. UH measures brain 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:43.840 activity by detecting the changes in blood oxidation and flow 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:46.800 that occurs in response to neural activity. So when a 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:49.520 brain area is more active, it consumes more oxygen and 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:52.000 to meet this increased demand, blood flow increases to the 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:54.720 active area. And the difference between an m R I 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:56.200 and f m r I m R I is a 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:58.600 snapshot of the brain. F m r I is more 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:00.960 of a moving p sure of the brain, so you 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:03.480 can see where things are flowing and how the activity 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:07.960 is occurring. Yeah, m R I is more revealing of 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:10.480 anatomy as opposed to brain activity with f m R I. 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:12.680 So it turns out, of course, fm r I is 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:15.200 really really helpful in trying to pinpoint the parts of 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:18.040 the brain that are processing information. So if you're looking 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:19.840 at a picture, you know that your visual cortex is 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:21.840 going to light up. Um, you know that if you're 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.480 trying to make a judgment call about something that you're 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:26.840 seeing or listening to, then you know that your prefrontal 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:29.920 cortex is going to be very busy trying to weigh 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:33.080 its options and its judgments. Now, not everything, of course, 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.880 is that um stupid simple if you will, Because because 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:39.120 we've discussed before a lot of times, it's a it's 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:41.880 kind of a puzzle figuring out. We'll have multiple parts 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:43.800 of the brain that are involved in a particular task, 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:45.360 and then you have to sort of piece together what 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:47.720 that means. It's it's not always a situation where it's 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:49.440 like you can you can't look at an fMRI I 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:52.600 result and be like, oh, well, the part of his brain, 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.000 part of the brain associated with lying to your grandma 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:58.160 about a cookie jar is lighting up. So we know 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:01.680 what it actually occurred. But we do know that a 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:04.920 lot of our memory has to do with UH spatial 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:10.520 elements dimensions, and so if someone committed a murder inside 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:14.320 of a home and UH you were to put say 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:17.720 some photos in front of this person of this house, 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:21.000 and you could see that their brain was going a 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:24.480 little bit crazy to hit the campus and showing that 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:28.120 it recognized this room. It already had this blueprint inside 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:31.080 of this person's brain. Then you could begin to make 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.960 the case that there are some unique identifiers of certain 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:39.800 criminal situations that you could mark against an fm R 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:42.720 I scan of the brain. Right and and likewise, in 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:44.600 the same way you could show evidence pictures, you could 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:48.240 also show pictures of suspects faces if you were, say, um, 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:50.160 if someone thought that you might have been an accomplished 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:52.680 to a crime, if someone thought you might have, say, 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:54.960 driven the car that a bank robber used, and then 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:58.840 you were shown four different faces of four different bank 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.240 of suspected bank robbers, and then you can measure their 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:04.120 response to that, is there some sort of a familiarity 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.320 that's that's that's popping up here? Um. And then also 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:10.480 apparently there are three parts of the brain that work 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:13.480 harder during a lie. And that's according to the Steve 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:17.200 Laken of a Cephos Corp. Which is a company that's 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:20.560 very involved in the development and then the use of 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:23.760 f m R I lie detection and so the idea 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:25.359 here is that you put somebody in an f M 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:27.359 R I and then you give them basic guess and 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:30.919 no questions based on whatever you're you're quizzing them about 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:33.760 and uh, and you can put all that info through 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:36.960 an algorithm and determine what is actually going on in 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:41.080 their mind. At the World Science Festival, Alan Alda aired 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:43.400 a little bit of a video from an upcoming PPS 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:46.480 documentary that he's done about neuroscience and law, in which 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:50.600 he goes into this machine, uh and into Steva Lincoln's machine, 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:53.680 and they're trying to figure out whether he took a 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.159 ring or a or a wrist watch out of a 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:58.920 drawer prior to the experiment. Because he's a big cleft 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:01.119 o Allan all the well, well he was he was 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:03.719 asked to steal one or the other um and he 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:05.600 and he says he was very tempted to steal them 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:07.919 both to screw with their results. But but he he 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:11.040 went with the ring and they were able to determine, uh, 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:14.120 you know, not looking in his pockets, but but quizzing 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:18.399 him basically during the whole the Hobbit and Gollum thing, 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:20.840 you know, what's in your pockets? Is I guess and uh, 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:23.200 and in the machine was able to determine he's definitely 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:25.320 definitely has the ring in his pocket because he responded 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:27.480 this way to questions about the ring and or pictures 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:30.560 about the ring. Okay, so there are a couple of 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:36.560 problems though with fm R I right, And one is that, uh, 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:39.520 the problem is our brains in our memory. Recall we've 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:42.400 talked about this a thousand times that memory is fallible, 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.040 that when you take a memory out you can sometimes 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:48.880 change it, or you have false memories of things. Yeah. There, 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:51.520 you know, I think we discussed seven key ways that 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:55.400 memories can be made false and uh. And so even 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:57.040 if you're even if you're just going into a room, 0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:58.840 I mean they've in case efter case of people who 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.600 who either by their own fault, by their own formation 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:05.840 of a faulty memory, or by um, you know, slight 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:09.760 coercion on the part of the police investigators, end up 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:12.280 making a false I D in the lineup, you know, 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:14.320 you end up seeing a face and you're like, that's 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:16.480 that's the one. Or in that one case we were 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.240 talking about where an assault occurred while the TV was 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:24.439 playing and the victim ended up identifying the individual on 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:27.639 the television as the individual in her apartment assaulting her, 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:30.160 right because she happened to be staring at that person 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:32.720 while something traumatic was happening to her, and that was 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:38.240 coded as the face who was perpetrating this act against her. Yeah, 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:40.800 so yeah, I mean that the memory is just it's 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:43.719 a very dicey thing. And yes, as you, as you 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:47.480 had pointed out, eye witnesses are notoriously bad at I 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:51.719 being the right person. So if you see an image 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:53.119 in your an fm R I and you see an 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:55.440 image of a person and you think it looks like 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:57.399 that could be a familiar person or someone you know, 0:19:57.520 --> 0:19:59.720 then it may not be. It may just be someone 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:02.600 who resembles another person right now. So so there's that 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:05.040 whole the whole issue of memory itself has to be 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:07.240 taken into account. Yeah, you can't tease out is this 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:10.080 a false memory or a true memory? Now. Now, there 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:11.800 have been a lot of tests though with the f 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:14.400 R Allie detection somewhere the neighborhood of forty different ones 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:18.919 with subjects given stimuli and they're questioned about about the 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:22.119 something that that maybe a truth or maybe a falsehood, 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:27.560 and uh, supposedly the results are anywhere been nine effective. 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:30.640 But but then you get into into this weird area 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.200 what is it actually detecting. Is it really detecting a lie, 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:36.760 or is it detecting emotional importance UM or or some 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:40.639 of their kind of you know, mental process about the 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:44.760 stimuli for instance, the ring um all that ends up 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:46.440