1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey wasn't gonna suff up all your mind. 3 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. Julie, 4 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: do you ever find yourself like thinking thoughts in a 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: in one circumstance or another, and you you kind of 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: have that paranoia where you you you hope that nobody 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: can read your thoughts. Wall, I mean there's a thought 8 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: bubble over my head at all times? Right, Well, no, 9 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: but I was kind of under that assumption. Well, yeah, 10 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: if you if you read enough comics, I guess you'd 11 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: fall into the thing. But but there are times where 12 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: you kind of feel like there's a thought bubble. And 13 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: to a certain extent, we all have tells, we all 14 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: have their various subtle and not so subtle cues regarding 15 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: what we're thinking about. Um. But but I have at 16 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: times found myself in situations where I like, I'll think 17 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: of something and I'll be and I'll do like, oh, 18 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: I hope nobody could hear hear my thoughts. Like in reaction, 19 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: I actually know exactly you're talking about it those intense 20 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: moments and you're thinking really really just very intensely about 21 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: something and it seems as though whatever is going on 22 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: in your head is just booming out there. Yeah, and 23 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: you look up and I know it's that brief moment 24 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: where you think, did they hear inside my head? Yeah? 25 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: Or like sometimes like my brain anyway, I'll I'll find 26 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: myself in a situation and I'll think, what is the 27 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: worst possible thing I could think at this this moment, 28 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: And then I'll think it, and that would be like, brain, 29 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: what are you doing? There could be people listening or 30 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: watching in or or reading you. So your concern is 31 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: that it's not an although in the future we're talking 32 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: with twenty years, perhaps even those thoughts, those dark thoughts, 33 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: might be revealed. Yeah, exactly to everyone. Yeah, because the 34 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: thought police do not exist as a you know and 35 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: in its sci fi sense yet, But the police, law 36 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 1: enforcement employers, um family members are of course there are 37 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: interested in what people are thinking. And we continue to 38 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 1: roll out scientific and pseudoscientific ways to uh to guess 39 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,959 Speaker 1: at what is going on inside someone else's mind. Yeah, 40 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: because I mean, the big mystery for all of us 41 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: is whether or not someone is telling the truth or 42 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: telling a lie. And we want to scratch at that 43 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: as much as possible and genome Sciences and Policy. Laura 44 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: Nita Farrene says that neuroscience is already influencing the courtroom, 45 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: at least with terminology. She had brought up some examples 46 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: at the World Science Festival in the panel on euro 47 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: Science in Law that you attended Brains on Trial. That 48 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: one was hosted by Alan Alda, and it was it 49 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: was quite excellent, And she says that people say things 50 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: like I didn't consciously choose to do the thing that 51 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: I'm accused of. My brain made me do it. My 52 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: brain made me do it, or I have a predisposition 53 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: to addiction and therefore when this occurred, it wasn't my brain, 54 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: it was the brain of another person under different circumstances. 55 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: Is so we already see sort of the leaking of 56 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: neuroscience into the courtroom, into law. So now it's just 57 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: a matter of looking at both the past and the 58 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: present future to try to figure out how all this 59 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: is going to settle in what sort of technology is 60 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: going to shape it. Yeah, that you mentioned of the 61 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: whole my brain made me do it, or there's something 62 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: in my in my brain that may be responsible for 63 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: this and I didn't have a say in it. It's 64 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: interesting because that all gets into this whole the mind 65 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: body problem, the the idea that a brain is a 66 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 1: physical thing and a mind is a non physical thing. 67 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: Our consciousness is a is a is a creation of mind, 68 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: and our mind is a creation of brain. And uh, 69 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: and we find ourselves saying, hey, I'm a mind. Don't 70 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: don't try the mind based on what the brain is doing. Person, 71 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: Keep the brain, not the mind. Like it gets quickly. 72 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: It is complex as any pondering we may have about 73 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: the nature of consciousness and then the nature of self. Yeah, 74 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: there's a lot of pointing of fingers because you could 75 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: even say, well wait, wait, wait, is the brain messing 76 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: up my mind my concept of reality? Yeah? Um yeah. 77 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: So that's why all this becomes incredibly interesting when you 78 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: start to look at fm r I technology, um and 79 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: and some other technologies that we will discuss today. But 80 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: in order to do that, we have to, of course 81 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,119 Speaker 1: travel back to the past, and actually not even the past, 82 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: because some of these things are already in use. Yeah. Now, 83 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: of course we're talking about science. We're talking about science, 84 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: the use of science in investigations, in interviews and interrogations 85 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: and in criminal investigations and in trials, and we've always 86 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: used science for these means. I mean it's uh, you 87 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: can find examples where we would use phrenology of the 88 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: measuring of skulls, you know, totally bogus, But for a 89 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: brief time, this seemed like a logical way to scientifically 90 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 1: study what would make one person a criminal and in 91 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: another person not UM fingerprinting. We did a whole episode 92 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: on this. If you want to really get into the 93 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: history of fingerprinting and that the the validity of fingerprinting 94 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: when it comes to criminal investigation, do check that episode out, because, 95 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: as we discussed there, a lot of the fingerprinting science 96 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: isn't as as solid as we used to think it 97 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: it is and UM and a lot of its power 98 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: in the courtroom had to do with the fact that 99 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: it was presented as powerful information. Yeah, it's just the 100 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: cell of it. Also, you've seen you know, truth terums 101 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: have had their day psychotherapy, UM polygraphs, which will discuss 102 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: here momentarily. And now we're increasingly in the age of 103 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: DNA evidence and UH, and certainly DNA events has done 104 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: a lot of good. It is it has been able 105 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: to to reverse decisions that were made based on faulty evidence. 106 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:43,799 Speaker 1: In the past, we seen to be the the Innocence 107 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: Project and uh, and then we're we're already in this 108 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 1: age and of neuroimaging in the courtroom in criminal investigations, 109 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: and we're only going to see more and more of 110 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: it over the next ten years. I did want to 111 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: point out that truth Sorum is actually used in some 112 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: parts of the world, and truth Sirum is part of 113 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: something called narco analysis, and this is administering psycho active 114 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: drugs for those interrogation purposes. Um. Most people are probably 115 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: familiar with the term sodium pentathal and this is the 116 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: quote unquote truth serum. However, it doesn't exactly extract truthful 117 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: statements from people. In fact, there's this idea that it 118 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: might make people talk, but people are still really responsive 119 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: to suggestions, so they're still going to tell you, um, 120 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 1: what they think that you're trying to chease out of them, 121 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: or they're still conscious that they're expected to deliver something 122 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: to someone. Yeah, I mean, in that regard, it's not 123 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: much different from torture. The idea that if you inflict 124 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: physical pain on somebody, they will tell you anything you 125 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: want to hear to make the pain stop. And therefore 126 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 1: it's it's it's a largely unreliable form of interrogation. And 127 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: that's the problem that we're going to discuss two with 128 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: all these different technologies is that at some point there 129 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 1: is a margin of error and there's a problem here 130 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: interpreting the results. And so polygraphs are a great example 131 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: of this. Yeah, let's let's get into into polygraphs. Now, polygraphs, 132 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: of course the lie detection tests. Most people are familiar 133 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: with this from TV, where it has been just used 134 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: to death and every television show imaginable um. And even 135 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: when it's used in a more realistic fashion, we still 136 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: are bringing in all these preconceived notions about what it 137 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: consists of and how reliable it may or may not be. 138 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: So a polygraph is essentially a seismograph for the nervous 139 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: system and measures of physiological responses such as heart rate, 140 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: blood pressure, sweatiness, um, breathing. Uh So, when you're anxious, 141 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: you're angry, you're in pain, you're emotionally aroused, these measures 142 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: spike automatically. Generally it's four to six censers. They're attached 143 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: to the body um and uh. And again it's breathing rate, pulse, 144 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: blood pressure, perspiration, and sometimes they'll also record things like 145 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: arm and the leg movements. And this is being used 146 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: in the CIA as well as n s A, so 147 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: there various agencies that actually used this. The problem with 148 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: the polygraph is that you can actually beat it. And 149 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: if you can train yourself to think in a certain 150 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: manner or to do a couple of tricks, it's not 151 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: a problem actually to pass one of these. So if 152 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: they're testing you with this polygraph device, uh, they of 153 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: course need to have a baseline reading. They need to 154 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: ask you stuff like, hey, is your name Julie Douglas 155 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: and you say yes, and they see what that reading is. 156 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: They say are you wearing a striped shirt today? And 157 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: you say yes, yes, And then they say are you 158 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: the Queen of Mars And you would say no, thanks 159 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: lgar yes, So whichever the case may be, um and 160 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: and this would tell let them know, okay, these are 161 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: what our readings are when she is not lying to us. 162 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: And then they would also ask you, you know, they 163 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: would ask you some things too that you're expected to lie, 164 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: like have you ever killed a bug? Well? I don't 165 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: know that's not a good one. Well, have you ever stolen? 166 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: Have your money stolen money? Yes? Have you ever lied 167 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: to your parents? No? No? So they yeah, they begin 168 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: to these universal questions that they know eventually you'll lie 169 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: on just to get again that baseline of what is 170 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: a lilakla? What does all I look like with this person? 171 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: What does the truth look like with this person? And 172 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: now let's ask him the stuff we want to know. 173 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: Have you ever seen the inside of the house? Stuff 174 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 1: work safe, you know, things like that, and and see 175 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: that would be something yeah, they would test for and 176 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: they would compare that reading to these other baseline readings. Yeah, 177 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,719 Speaker 1: so what's cool about that line baseline is that is 178 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: the one that you can gain so that it scrambles 179 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: everything else. Right now, technically it is possible for someone 180 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: to to simply not have a strong physical response to line. 181 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: People have been light detection tests before with this kind 182 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: of effect, but it's it's more difficult. This is the 183 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: kind of thing you would expect Hannibal Elector to do, 184 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: you know, more advanced control or or or lack of 185 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: physical involvement with like it's coming out of your mouth. 186 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: But but yeah, the baseline is is an much easier 187 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 1: thing to screw up. And that's where say the thumb 188 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: tac method comes into place. So you would put a 189 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: thumb tack in your shoe and then when or asked 190 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: one of these baseline questions, you jab that sucker into 191 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: your toe, which causes some distress, and then it messes 192 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: up their baseline. It looks like you're getting this high 193 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: reading for something that is a known truth or aknown lie. Okay, 194 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: so the first time you lie, you you just name 195 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: yourself so that your physiological response is just so active 196 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: that it just that seismograph goes nuts. So the next 197 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: time that you lie, yeah, it's not gonna be there 198 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: is strong. They're like, oh, well that they that didn't 199 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: mess them up at all. It'll just look at the readings. 200 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: Now that one of the problems with with this method 201 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: is that some polygraph tests will testers will make you 202 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 1: take your shoes off. So uh, it's it's become that 203 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: common of of of a method. But who's to say 204 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: you can't bite your tongue exactly. So there are other 205 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: means of causing yourself a little bit of physical discomfort 206 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: um to to allow you to mess with those baselines. Um. Now, 207 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 1: there are other bits of folklore that are out there. 208 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: For instance, some people say that you can take certain drugs, 209 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: you can rub any perst print on your fingertips, or 210 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: you can use hypnosis. You can are just wiggling your 211 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: toes or flexing your arms, coughing. But these these cannot 212 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: not to work that well. Oh, I see, So the 213 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: anti perseprint is so that it reduced the galvanic response, 214 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: that sweating response. Right. Yeah, But but what I've been 215 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: reading is that that really doesn't help you any and 216 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: that's just only one of the things that it's testing 217 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: for anyway, So you still can't help it if your 218 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: heart goes nets. Another thing that I have read is that, um, 219 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: just it's a mind over matter issue, and that if 220 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: you can try to um I think really warm and 221 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: cozy thoughts, calming thoughts while you're lying, is that you 222 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: may still get a little bit of a you know, 223 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: some action on that seismograph, but it may not be 224 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: nearly as pronounced if you weren't trying to essentially meditate 225 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: during this process. Yes, so it's still used in a 226 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: number of agencies. It's used by by employers, but in 227 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 1: most states you don't actually see it in courts anymore 228 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 1: because it doesn't pass scientific standards of admission in the courtroom. 229 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 1: I was looking at a particular website anti polygraph dot org, 230 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 1: which is which is generally aimed at its use by 231 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: employers and by by these agencies, and they point out 232 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: a number of interesting things about polygraph tests about how 233 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: so much of it isn't even about the looking at 234 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: readings and comparing them, comparing these baseline results to the 235 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 1: results of these questions there, but they're bringing in all 236 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: the other aspects of interrogation. So for instance, they're looking 237 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: for things like, oh, did the did the individuals show 238 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: up late? Do they seem hesitant? What does their voice 239 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: sound like when they answer no to this question or 240 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: answer yes to this one? So, and then they're also 241 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: trying to get subtle admissions out of out of the 242 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: subject as well during the course of the test. So 243 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: in a in a sense, it's still a straight up interrogation, 244 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: like a straight up police uh you know, bright light 245 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 1: in the eyes kind of a thing, except they have 246 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: this uh, this pseudo scientific method on the table that's 247 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: legitimizing and all. Okay, So the readings that they're taking. 248 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: That's a bit of a sham, right, The whole thing 249 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: is a sham. The idea is that it's a psychological 250 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: tool that they can use on their employees. So if 251 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: that employee knows although I might get tested this month, 252 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: then maybe he or she is going to mind their 253 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,439 Speaker 1: p's and ques a bit more. That's the idea by 254 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: the agents that that's that's what detractors argue, and that's 255 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: certainly what antipolographed or argue. So they have a lot 256 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: of materials on the website, including a more detailed information 257 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: about how it works and how to beat it and 258 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: when when I and I say how to beat it again, 259 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: not just talking about the physical test, but the the 260 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: the overall testing environment that is used by various agents. 261 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: All Right, Uh, interesting stuff to check out. Let's take 262 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: a quick break, and when we get back, we are 263 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 1: going to talk about the role of f M R 264 00:13:49,160 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: I and lie detection. All Right, we're back, and we've 265 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 1: been talking about the thought police. We've been talking about 266 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: methods of telling whether a person is lying or telling 267 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 1: the truth. Uh, and when. Just as an aside, one 268 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: individual who famously passed the polygraph test, Gary Ridgeway, the 269 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: Green River Killer. And of course, now we were in 270 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 1: the age of the of m R I S and 271 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: f m RI I S talking about magnetic residence imaging 272 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: and functional magnetic residence imaging. Now we've just we've talked 273 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: about f m R S a lot on this show 274 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: because anytime we're talking about the brain and current brain research, 275 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: we're we're interested in knowing what's going on inside the mind, 276 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: what parts of the brain are being used to process 277 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: various things. UH and fm RI I. UH measures brain 278 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: activity by detecting the changes in blood oxidation and flow 279 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: that occurs in response to neural activity. So when a 280 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: brain area is more active, it consumes more oxygen and 281 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: to meet this increased demand, blood flow increases to the 282 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: active area. And the difference between an m R I 283 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: and f m r I m R I is a 284 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: snapshot of the brain. F m r I is more 285 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: of a moving p sure of the brain, so you 286 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: can see where things are flowing and how the activity 287 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: is occurring. Yeah, m R I is more revealing of 288 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: anatomy as opposed to brain activity with f m R I. 289 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: So it turns out, of course, fm r I is 290 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: really really helpful in trying to pinpoint the parts of 291 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: the brain that are processing information. So if you're looking 292 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: at a picture, you know that your visual cortex is 293 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: going to light up. Um, you know that if you're 294 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: trying to make a judgment call about something that you're 295 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: seeing or listening to, then you know that your prefrontal 296 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: cortex is going to be very busy trying to weigh 297 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: its options and its judgments. Now, not everything, of course, 298 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: is that um stupid simple if you will, Because because 299 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: we've discussed before a lot of times, it's a it's 300 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: kind of a puzzle figuring out. We'll have multiple parts 301 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: of the brain that are involved in a particular task, 302 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: and then you have to sort of piece together what 303 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: that means. It's it's not always a situation where it's 304 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: like you can you can't look at an fMRI I 305 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: result and be like, oh, well, the part of his brain, 306 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: part of the brain associated with lying to your grandma 307 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: about a cookie jar is lighting up. So we know 308 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: what it actually occurred. But we do know that a 309 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: lot of our memory has to do with UH spatial 310 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: elements dimensions, and so if someone committed a murder inside 311 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: of a home and UH you were to put say 312 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: some photos in front of this person of this house, 313 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: and you could see that their brain was going a 314 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: little bit crazy to hit the campus and showing that 315 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: it recognized this room. It already had this blueprint inside 316 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: of this person's brain. Then you could begin to make 317 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: the case that there are some unique identifiers of certain 318 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: criminal situations that you could mark against an fm R 319 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: I scan of the brain. Right and and likewise, in 320 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: the same way you could show evidence pictures, you could 321 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: also show pictures of suspects faces if you were, say, um, 322 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: if someone thought that you might have been an accomplished 323 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: to a crime, if someone thought you might have, say, 324 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: driven the car that a bank robber used, and then 325 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: you were shown four different faces of four different bank 326 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: of suspected bank robbers, and then you can measure their 327 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,120 Speaker 1: response to that, is there some sort of a familiarity 328 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: that's that's that's popping up here? Um. And then also 329 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: apparently there are three parts of the brain that work 330 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: harder during a lie. And that's according to the Steve 331 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: Laken of a Cephos Corp. Which is a company that's 332 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: very involved in the development and then the use of 333 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: f m R I lie detection and so the idea 334 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: here is that you put somebody in an f M 335 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: R I and then you give them basic guess and 336 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 1: no questions based on whatever you're you're quizzing them about 337 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: and uh, and you can put all that info through 338 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: an algorithm and determine what is actually going on in 339 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: their mind. At the World Science Festival, Alan Alda aired 340 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 1: a little bit of a video from an upcoming PPS 341 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: documentary that he's done about neuroscience and law, in which 342 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: he goes into this machine, uh and into Steva Lincoln's machine, 343 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: and they're trying to figure out whether he took a 344 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 1: ring or a or a wrist watch out of a 345 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: drawer prior to the experiment. Because he's a big cleft 346 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 1: o Allan all the well, well he was he was 347 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,719 Speaker 1: asked to steal one or the other um and he 348 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: and he says he was very tempted to steal them 349 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: both to screw with their results. But but he he 350 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: went with the ring and they were able to determine, uh, 351 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 1: you know, not looking in his pockets, but but quizzing 352 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: him basically during the whole the Hobbit and Gollum thing, 353 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: you know, what's in your pockets? Is I guess and uh, 354 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: and in the machine was able to determine he's definitely 355 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: definitely has the ring in his pocket because he responded 356 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: this way to questions about the ring and or pictures 357 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: about the ring. Okay, so there are a couple of 358 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: problems though with fm R I right, And one is that, uh, 359 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: the problem is our brains in our memory. Recall we've 360 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: talked about this a thousand times that memory is fallible, 361 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: that when you take a memory out you can sometimes 362 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 1: change it, or you have false memories of things. Yeah. There, 363 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: you know, I think we discussed seven key ways that 364 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 1: memories can be made false and uh. And so even 365 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: if you're even if you're just going into a room, 366 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: I mean they've in case efter case of people who 367 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: who either by their own fault, by their own formation 368 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: of a faulty memory, or by um, you know, slight 369 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: coercion on the part of the police investigators, end up 370 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: making a false I D in the lineup, you know, 371 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: you end up seeing a face and you're like, that's 372 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: that's the one. Or in that one case we were 373 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: talking about where an assault occurred while the TV was 374 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 1: playing and the victim ended up identifying the individual on 375 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 1: the television as the individual in her apartment assaulting her, 376 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: right because she happened to be staring at that person 377 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: while something traumatic was happening to her, and that was 378 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: coded as the face who was perpetrating this act against her. Yeah, 379 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: so yeah, I mean that the memory is just it's 380 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,719 Speaker 1: a very dicey thing. And yes, as you, as you 381 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: had pointed out, eye witnesses are notoriously bad at I 382 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,719 Speaker 1: being the right person. So if you see an image 383 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: in your an fm R I and you see an 384 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: image of a person and you think it looks like 385 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: that could be a familiar person or someone you know, 386 00:19:57,520 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: then it may not be. It may just be someone 387 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: who resembles another person right now. So so there's that 388 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: whole the whole issue of memory itself has to be 389 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: taken into account. Yeah, you can't tease out is this 390 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: a false memory or a true memory? Now. Now, there 391 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: have been a lot of tests though with the f 392 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 1: R Allie detection somewhere the neighborhood of forty different ones 393 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 1: with subjects given stimuli and they're questioned about about the 394 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: something that that maybe a truth or maybe a falsehood, 395 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: and uh, supposedly the results are anywhere been nine effective. 396 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 1: But but then you get into into this weird area 397 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: what is it actually detecting. Is it really detecting a lie, 398 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: or is it detecting emotional importance UM or or some 399 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: of their kind of you know, mental process about the 400 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: stimuli for instance, the ring um all that ends up 401 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: going with this ring and present I believe they were 402 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: both his optics. So so it's like a wristwatch and 403 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 1: his wedding ring. So the wedding ring has a lot 404 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: of value to him. It's it's, you know, like anybody's 405 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: wedding ring. There are a lot of ideas wrapped up 406 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: into that object. And so uh, to what extent of 407 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: the fireworks in his head that the fMRI I detects, 408 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: to what extent of those more um tied into the 409 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: meaning of the object than to whether he stole it. 410 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: So you've got memory, you have a motion to deal with. 411 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: And Uh. The other part of f m R I 412 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: and it being not so full proof is that you 413 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: can game it much like you would polygraph. Yes. In fact, 414 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: on the panel we we were we were talking about 415 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: earlier um Nito of Fara honey actually UH was was 416 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: given this slide detection test and was told come up 417 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: with ways to beat it, and she actually got got 418 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: pretty good at it pretty fast, and she had she 419 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: had a couple of different ways that she was that 420 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: she recommends beating an fMRI I lie detection test. Uh. 421 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: So she's so, for instance, you're shown a picture of 422 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: familiar faces to see if you know who the bank 423 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: robber is, for instance, do you recognize this face? And 424 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: she said that she could instead of focusing on the face, 425 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 1: focus on a detail of the picture. You know. It's 426 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: kind of like, um, we've talked about before, if you 427 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: stare something long enough, it starts looking weird. So so 428 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 1: she would look at dots, you know, and she would 429 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: just sort of zone out on those dots and say say, no, 430 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: I don't recognize this at all. She's being asked about 431 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: the face, but she's looking and thinking about just a 432 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: collection of dots that looked totally new to her, indifferent 433 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: and she's able to fool it that way. And then 434 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 1: she recommends you could you could probably do the same 435 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: thing by sort of blinking out your mind and trying 436 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: to think about nothing. All U Ghostbusters where they're told 437 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: to that whatever their next sigh is will be the 438 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: form of the destroyer, and then dan Ackroyd's character accidentally 439 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: as this childhood memory of the state Puff marshmallow Man 440 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: um or you could basically take the take the route 441 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: of just thinking of the state Puff Puff marshmallow Man. 442 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: If they're saying, you know, here's a question about this 443 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,640 Speaker 1: crime or or where you were when this crime occurred, 444 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,199 Speaker 1: and you just fill your thought with marshmallow Man and 445 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,239 Speaker 1: you may pass well. And she also says that you 446 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 1: have to will your self again to see this in 447 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: a fresh new way and to think to yourself, wow, 448 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 1: that's amazing. I've never seen that before. That array of 449 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: dots fascinating, completely new to me. And yeah, she did that, 450 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: and she was able to beat the machine. And of course, 451 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 1: one more thing to mention on f m r I 452 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: s is that currently it would be exceedingly different to 453 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: get difficult to give somebody an f m R I 454 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: against their will, because there's a certain you have to 455 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: be still, you have to cooperate and and and therefore, 456 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: in its current form, it's not going to be one 457 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: of these situations where someone's brought in and chains and said, 458 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: all right, we're scanning that brain of years However, if 459 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: you were trying to prove your innocence, then you could 460 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: spit yourself or if you're going to try if you 461 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 1: were guilty and you were going to try to game 462 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: the machine, you could certainly submit yourself. Yeah, and uh 463 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: and you know the experts that on this panel, including 464 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: fair Honey and also Anthony do you the Wagner psychologist 465 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: and neuroscientists than they said, you know, the next two years, 466 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: we're just gonna see more and more on this. We're 467 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 1: gonna see uh C F M R eyes used in 468 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: or attempted to be used to clear people of crimes 469 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: or to or to you know, see about tough persecution. 470 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: And there was a judge on that panel too, and 471 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: they talked a lot about how judges are trying to 472 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: get up to speed with neuroscience because they realized that 473 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: this is seeping into the courtroom and they need to yeah, 474 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,679 Speaker 1: you know, fluent in the technology and to understand and 475 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: began to actually sort of craft some of some the 476 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 1: laws around that actually, and also the importance they also 477 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: mentioned of manature juries are are educated about it because 478 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: we mentioned the fingerprinting thing, but before about how juries 479 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 1: could be won over just by a fancy presentation where 480 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, that has a chart that is a 481 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: picture of a fingerprint and all the swirls. It looks 482 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: very impressive. You're making an impressive looking case, so I'm 483 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: gonna buy it. Likewise, you don't want a jury that 484 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: just because they're rolling out a bunch of neuroscience at 485 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: you and just you know, hitting you over the head 486 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: with it. You're thinking they have the science on their side, 487 00:24:58,119 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 1: so I guess they're right. Well, and then you also 488 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: have of the instance of when DNA was introduced to courtrooms, 489 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: and that was very difficult at first because people didn't 490 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: have a shorthand way to discuss how to determine d 491 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: N A if. Now we take it for granted because 492 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 1: we have a baseline understanding of it, but back then 493 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: that was sort of crazy pants to be like, hey, 494 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 1: so we're going to match these things off these markers 495 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: and the following ways, and it was sort of scrambling 496 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: people's brains. Right, So that's the f m R I. 497 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: That's one way that we have it, looking in at 498 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: the brain and seeing what's happening. But then there's some 499 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: other interesting areas as well that the use of using 500 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: this kind of mind scanning technology to see what we're thinking, 501 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 1: to to peek inside those little mental movies that we create, 502 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: be they memories or fabricated uh fantasies or or or 503 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: things that we would like to do, and actually taking 504 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: them out of the brain and putting them on on 505 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: a TV screen for the judge and jury to look at, 506 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 1: printing them out and distributing them to the jury. Right. Yeah, Now, 507 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: this is something we've we've talked about this before. I 508 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 1: think maybe we did it in our wrap up of 509 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: Big Science for um where and it made a lot 510 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: of a lot of press. And this is the This 511 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 1: was a particularly a University of California, Berkeley experiment where 512 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: researchers a fed a computer with eighteen million one second 513 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: YouTube clips that the participants in the study of the 514 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: human participants had never seen, and then they asked the 515 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: computer to predict what brain activity each of those clips 516 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: would evoke. Then they asked it to reconstruct the movie 517 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,239 Speaker 1: clips using the best matches it could find based on 518 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: this this enormous volume of YouTube data that it had. 519 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 1: You know what I like it that this study is 520 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: that the it was the co authors who actually volunteered 521 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 1: to be scanned, because it took hours and hours of 522 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: them looking at this one point, looking at movie clips 523 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: while their brains were being scanned. And if I understand 524 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 1: this correctly, the machine was then fed those YouTube clips 525 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 1: so that it could create a separate database to then 526 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,360 Speaker 1: compare the images of the movie clips that the volunteers saw, right, 527 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: and this is where the images were reconstructed. Yes, it's 528 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: kind of basically the idea is attempting to view these 529 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: YouTube clips through the human mind alone, based on based 530 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 1: on the scans, and uh, the the results were were 531 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: blurry but astonishing. For instance, I have a human figure 532 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: appeared in the original clip, then a human form would 533 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: generally show you. It's not like you'd see the face 534 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 1: or anything, but you would see a general representation of 535 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: a human kind of shadowy looking, yeah, and just very 536 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,640 Speaker 1: low resolution looking stuff. Yeah. Now, what was really cool 537 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: is that one of the clips showed elephants walking right 538 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: to left. And since there weren't elephants in the YouTube 539 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: clips that formed the computer's um you know, visual information, 540 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: it had no idea what to represent. It is just 541 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: like a blurry, dark form, so it did not have 542 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: it in its World Brain Dictionary. So you would have 543 00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: to you would have to establish a pretty rich show 544 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: world brain Dictionary for this kind of technology for it 545 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,120 Speaker 1: to really be able to to take those images out 546 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: of the mind and put them on the screen. But 547 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: I think what is so fascinating about this and and 548 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: has such far reaching implications, is that all it was 549 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 1: just eighteen million YouTube clips fed into this machine. If 550 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: you were too and presumably they're doing this building up 551 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 1: that database, then they could get a pretty rich world 552 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: Brain Dictionary going. If they were able to make this 553 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: technology mobile. See where I'm going with this, then you could, 554 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 1: unbeknownst to someone I'm talking future talk, uh, you know, 555 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: beam a light at this person into their their visual cortex, 556 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: get a reflection back and start to read off what 557 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: this person is thinking of or dreaming of. Well, what 558 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: one thought that comes to mind here is that would 559 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: it mean that criminals would have to make sure that 560 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: they perpetrated their acts with as many elements outside of 561 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: the World Brain Dictionary as possible? Would we see like 562 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: the Rise of U and I think Gret Morrison used 563 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: this in Doom Patrol a little bit um like DODA 564 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: criminals where they would have to use like absurdist costumes 565 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: and tactics, so that nothing that you saw would match up. 566 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: Nothing that was that that was maybe the basic aspects 567 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: of the crime would match up, because stealing money, stealing money, 568 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,239 Speaker 1: or you know, or or murder is murder. But if 569 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: enough of the elements were absurd and didn't match up 570 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: with the World Brain Dictionary, then that would perhaps flaw 571 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: the visions of it that we could get out of 572 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: the human mind with this machine. That's intriguing because what 573 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: I mean, what you're saying is that you would train 574 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: your brain to begin to We know, the brain can 575 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: bifurcate itself anyway, right, it can sort of split its tasks. 576 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: So and we've seen this with with ventrilo quests. So 577 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: if someone was committing a crime, they would begin to 578 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: think of their gun as a marshmallow, refer to it, 579 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: see it as a marshmallow, and therefore disassociate gun with 580 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: the crime and associate marshmallow with and that would be 581 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: It's sort of like quantum code. It's key code, not quantum, 582 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: but that would be it's key code, right, and you 583 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: would have to know the key code. But you this 584 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: person who is putting someone through the fm R I 585 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: scanner or this machine uh that that's whetted with the 586 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: World Brain Dictionary, wouldn't know that you didn't have the key. 587 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 1: Is it possible? I don't know, surely. Yeah. Now another 588 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: thing that that that you have to take into account here, 589 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: and this is something that that Anthony Wagner pointed out 590 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: in the World Science Festival talk, is that another potential 591 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: issue is how close imagination is to experience. Imagination, as 592 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: we've discussed in previous episodes, very close to the real 593 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: experience as a mental event. There is some distinction in 594 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: scans between memories of experience and pure imagination, but they're 595 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: very similar, very similar brain activity. So you might find 596 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: yourself in a situation where you're using some of this 597 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: technology we're talking about to scan the brain and see 598 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 1: what your reactions are or see what your what kind 599 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: of mental images mental movies are playing in your head. 600 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: But then you have to ask yourself, is this a 601 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: mental image? Is this is this person remembering a murder 602 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: they committed. Are they thinking about a murder that they 603 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: fantasized about committing that they that they they thinking about 604 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: a murder they saw on TV? Are they thinking about 605 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: a murder that they read about in the newspaper and 606 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: just via pure old fashioned human empathy, couldn't help but 607 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: imagine themselves in that murderer shoes. You know. Well, you 608 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: know what's interesting about that is that there's, um, there's 609 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: that case of I believe it was a police officer 610 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: who was in a bunch of chat rooms, um concerning 611 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: basically eating another human. Do you remember this the cannibal cop. Yeah. Yeah, 612 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: he actually never killed anybody or ate them as far 613 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: as we know. Um, But there was this whole debate about, well, 614 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: if this person actually sort of going to lunch, having 615 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: these lunch dates with potential victims, and if he left 616 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: this trail behind him, this this memory trace essentially this 617 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: even if it was just his imagination for his fantasy, 618 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: is he capable of doing it? Capable of stepping over 619 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: that threshold? So in a way, it's the same sort 620 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: of thing. I mean, how do you how do you 621 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: determine whether or not someone actually did the deed or 622 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: was about to do the deed. Yeah, when we get 623 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: into the whole area of the thought crime, is it 624 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: is it because like, for instance, take take murder. Okay, 625 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: so murder, so like There's a huge difference between me, say, 626 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,719 Speaker 1: hearing a story about a husband murdering his wife and 627 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: then thinking of that and being like, oh, my god, 628 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: would that be horrible if I did that, that would 629 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: be the worst, and then I but I imagine myself 630 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: doing it in some more circumstances. Maybe a huge difference 631 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: between that and fantasizing about killing my wife. You know, 632 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: you know is this is an interesting conversation because I 633 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: tried to explain to my mom once that, um, growing up, 634 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 1: I used to have these awful thoughts and what I 635 00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: did not realize when I was too young to realize 636 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: that I was just trying to uh, embodying someone else's 637 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: mind and imagine what something might be like and just 638 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: sort of take that thought experiment to its degree, to 639 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: just to see what it felt like to be in 640 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: those in that person's shoes. And it used to disturb 641 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: me because I thought that I was a dark person, 642 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 1: not realizing that's part of the creative process or the imagination, 643 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 1: and that's, you know, part in person why I am 644 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: interested in writing room. I'm a writer because I like 645 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: to put myself into those other situations. So you bring 646 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: up a really good point you know, just just occupying 647 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: that that frame of mind, I mean that you're culpable. Yeah, 648 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: you end up. Yeah, you have to worry about where 649 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: about actors? You have to worry about about writers? And 650 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: then to what extent could you actually plan to murder 651 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: somebody and carry out a murder by masking it with 652 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: all of this art, Like say, what if you just 653 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: simply wrote the short story first and then committed the crime, 654 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: or you you acted in the one act play, or 655 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: what if you made sure that the murder perfectly mirrored 656 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: some sort of a murder that occurs in Shakespeare, Because 657 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: then it's kind of twofold, because you can say, oh, 658 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: of course I have that murder in my mind because 659 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: I saw it on stage like eight times. Or and 660 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 1: also that would have that would prevent them from One 661 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: of the things we've talked about here is say like 662 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: showing them the image of a ring and seeing it 663 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 1: lights up. Inevitably with any kind of homicide investigation or 664 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: kind of an investigation, they're gonna be you want to 665 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: keep the details out of the press because you want 666 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: new information you can so you can surprise um suspects 667 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: with and be like, do you recognize this watch. Do 668 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: you recognize this footprint? Um? So, and certainly do you 669 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: recognize this murder weapon. But if the murder weapon is 670 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,800 Speaker 1: is something iconic, like I said, to what, to whatever 671 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: degree the crime matches up with something publicly known, uh, 672 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: then there's less stuff that you could shock them with 673 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: and and anything you show them with. Or of course 674 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: I'm familiar with that murder weapon because that is the 675 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: murder weapon that was used in this movie. You know 676 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Yeah, So, I mean it is 677 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: interesting if I were a defense attorney out with probably 678 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,399 Speaker 1: take the tact of saying, we are human beings. We 679 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 1: have theory of mind, um, and this is what allows 680 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: us to imagine ourselves in other situations. And therefore my 681 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: client is you know, just putting her himself into this situation. 682 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: Or what if you were to say, imagine yourself in 683 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: my clients um shoes, and then everyone does, and then 684 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,919 Speaker 1: you would just arrest them all because there's ultimated thought 685 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: crimes now all right? So, um, you know, on the 686 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: on the panel about neuroscience and law, they did bring 687 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 1: up the Fourth Amendment guarding against unreasonable searches and seizures, 688 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:41,320 Speaker 1: and so you know they're extrapolating this to fm R 689 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: I scans because in a sense you are invading someone's privacy. 690 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: So then of course it does bring up this whole 691 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:52,280 Speaker 1: raft of of topics like what is privacy? To what extent? 692 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,839 Speaker 1: Do we have access to privacy anymore when you live 693 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,760 Speaker 1: within society? Right? And this is especially a big topic 694 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: right now. It's all over the wondering about N S 695 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,839 Speaker 1: A and our and are the contents of our our 696 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: emails and our our our phone calls, etcetera. But yeah, 697 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,839 Speaker 1: Farahani brought up some interesting points. She said that there 698 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: is nothing clear cut that would that could protect us 699 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: against this sort of thing if we were a legitimate 700 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 1: suspect in a crime. She says that all warrant is 701 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: is a right to the search. Now do we need 702 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 1: what we need new language added to our to our warrants? 703 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: You know? Perhaps, But she says, right now, the Fourth 704 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: Amendment protects us against unreasonable searches and seizures based on 705 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: how physically invasive the search. It protects against physical body 706 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: and space intrugience, but not intrusions into your secret. So 707 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: she said, think of a diary, all right, the all 708 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: the all that the Fourth Amendment protects is the door 709 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: that stands between the investigators and the diary, not the 710 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 1: contents of the diary itself. And an f m R 711 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: I is minimally invasive in the physical sense, though it's 712 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 1: of course, uh potentially very penetrating in the larger sense. 713 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: So to make parallel to the Fourth Amendment, than in 714 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: order to access the door, then you would have to 715 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 1: be served the search warrant so that you would be 716 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: able to at least I suppose prepare yourself. Yeah, I guess. 717 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's we're entering entering a new age here. 718 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 1: We have new new issues that are coming up. Uh 719 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: and uh, and certainly we're gonna have to change the 720 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 1: language of warrants and language of laws and the language 721 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: of rights. Interesting territory. All right, Well, on on on 722 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,879 Speaker 1: that thought, let's let's call over the robot and see 723 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: if we have any listener. Man. All right, So we 724 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,760 Speaker 1: recently did an episode on sensory deprivation uh tanks isolation chambers. 725 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,359 Speaker 1: So we did two episodes on them, actually, and we said, hey, 726 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 1: we know that some of our listeners have entered the 727 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,880 Speaker 1: wounded tune wet box as well, So let's find out 728 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: what they had to say about it. Um, here's one 729 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,320 Speaker 1: from Taylor Taylor wrights In and says, Hi, Robert and Julie. 730 00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: My mind was blown by the fact that Robert did 731 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 1: not mention the movie Altered States during your podcast on 732 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 1: Century Deprivation Chamber. He is usually very eager to mention 733 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: when your topics are featured in books or films, but 734 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:09,760 Speaker 1: he never mentioned it. It's a great movie starring William 735 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: Hurt and has everything to do with what you are 736 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: talking about, Robert, I view, I haven't seen it. I 737 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:15,839 Speaker 1: think you'd really dig it. It's about a scientist who 738 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: gets carried away with his own research into SDCS and 739 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: pul cybin. The movie gets very strange and far out 740 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: with what happens to him. Just watch Annual see Uh. Indeed, 741 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 1: I've I've been familiar with Altered States for a long time, 742 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: but have never actually watched. I thought I would find 743 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: time when we were researching these, but the two hours 744 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,800 Speaker 1: did not present itself. And you know, um, we actually 745 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: discussed it. Uh. In are sort of like, hey, let's 746 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 1: do this topic. Oh yeah, yeah, They're like, oh we 747 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: should do this, there's Altered States. But yeah, William hurt 748 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,240 Speaker 1: um and brain scans actually would corroborate this. Yeah. Cool, 749 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: we'll we'll pull out the brain scans later undatory here yeah, 750 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: and here's another one on the censory deprivation chambers from Lisa. 751 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: Lisa writes in and says, Hi, Julie Robert, I was 752 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: so surprised to hear your podcast on sensory deprivation chambers, 753 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: literally a few days after I tried it for the 754 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 1: first time myself. My first float was on. It was 755 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,720 Speaker 1: last Sunday, June ninth, and I'm going back for repeat 756 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: experiences coming Sunday. Um. A new facility for this called 757 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 1: float House opened up in Vancouver a month ago, and 758 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: I was both excited and a little scared to try 759 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,800 Speaker 1: it out. I was excited because I've been practicing meditation 760 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:23,800 Speaker 1: for a little while now, and I've heard that floating 761 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: is a way to deepen the meditative experience. I was 762 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: a little scared because the whole thing seems a little weird, 763 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: with reports of hallucinary experiences. I wasn't quite sure what 764 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 1: to expect. The facility itself was very clean and spot like. 765 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 1: Each tank was in a private room with a shower, towels, robes, slippers, 766 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,319 Speaker 1: shampoo and conditioners, etcetera. Were all provided. While I did 767 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,359 Speaker 1: not experience any hallucinations or anything I would call transcendental, 768 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,760 Speaker 1: I did really enjoy the experience. It was extremely relaxing 769 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,240 Speaker 1: to lie in the warm water and meditate for ninety minutes. 770 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 1: I was a bit worried that the time would be 771 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: too long, but it was just right. I could have 772 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 1: stayed in there longer. Actually, it was a challenge not 773 00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 1: to fall off to sleep, as I was so comfortable. 774 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,600 Speaker 1: When I got out, all the muscular aches and pains 775 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 1: in my shoulder and back had melted away. I can't 776 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 1: wait to float again this coming Sunday. I hope you 777 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: both enjoy your upcoming floats. Lisa, Vancouver, all right, very cool. 778 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 1: All right. Well, you know we have more mail on 779 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: this topic that we will get to in the future episodes, 780 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:19,239 Speaker 1: but we thank everybody for writing in about them and 781 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 1: continued right in with your experience with with any topic 782 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 1: we were talking about. For instance, if you have something 783 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: you would like to share about the science of lie detection. 784 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: Have you ever taken up or administered a polygraph test? 785 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:34,919 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear about that, and certainly if you've 786 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,080 Speaker 1: if you've undergone FM or I or any of the 787 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 1: anything of this nature, we'd love to hear about that 788 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: as well. And what are your thoughts about the future 789 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,479 Speaker 1: of the thought police? Are you a little paranoid about 790 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 1: all this so you feel okay with it? How? What 791 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,359 Speaker 1: do you think the world will be like in ten 792 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: twenty thirty years regarding our ability to peer inside a 793 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 1: human mind and our legal authority to do so. You 794 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: can find us a various places to interact with us 795 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: on these topics. Uh Whorse. The Mothership is Stuff to 796 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com, but we're also on Tumbler, 797 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:05,320 Speaker 1: We are on Facebook Stuff to Blow your Mind on 798 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 1: both of those, and our Twitter handle is below the Mind. 799 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 1: You can also check out our YouTube channel, stuff to 800 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind and make sure to drop us a 801 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 1: line at below the Mind at Discovery dot com for 802 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it 803 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:30,320 Speaker 1: how Stuff Works dot com