1 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: From Mediators World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This is 2 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: Col's We Can Review with Ryan cal Calahan. Now here's cal. 3 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 2: All right, hello, friends and neighbors. On this week's special drop, 4 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 2: we've got Jesse Dubell of New Mexico Wildlife Federation and 5 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 2: we're going to talk about big game tag distribution and 6 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 2: allocation in the land of Enchantment. Specifically, we're going to 7 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 2: be discussing New Mexico's E plus program, in which a 8 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 2: willing landowner who meets criteria established by New Mexico Department 9 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 2: of Fishing Game can be allocated ELK tags, which can 10 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 2: then be sold on the open market, just like a 11 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 2: prized pig at the four h sale to the highest bidder. 12 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 2: Landowners have the choice of selling tags that are only 13 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 2: good for their proper commonly called ranch only orro tags, 14 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 2: or as unit wide tags. Both function just as they sound. 15 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 2: The market has dictated that unit wide tags are much 16 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 2: more valuable than the ranch only tags. You can imagine why. 17 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 2: But in order for a landowner to get these higher 18 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 2: tag prices, they also have to provide access to all 19 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 2: unit wide tag holders for the season, which, for those 20 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 2: of you thinking boy I hate this auction tag stuff. 21 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 2: That last little bit of additional access may sweeten the deal. 22 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 2: It may not. But if you can imagine if you 23 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 2: were to beat the especially long odds of a New 24 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 2: Mexico draw and you're able to purchase a tag, we'll 25 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 2: call it below market value. Because you just drew the tag, 26 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 2: you may think that all that additional access is pretty special. 27 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 2: That's our topic for this week. But first we're gonna 28 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 2: learn about New Mexico Wildlife Federation and Jesse Dubll. Just 29 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 2: so everybody's aware, Jesse and I have known each other 30 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 2: for a long time. Jordan Silliers, who's with me as always, 31 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: is also somebody who chats up Jesse quite a bit. Jordan, 32 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 2: what do you what do you pester Jesse with the most? 33 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 3: Would you say, Oh, I get him to share fishing 34 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 3: spots when I go to New Mexico. That's what we've 35 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 3: talked about in the past. And he's very he's very gracious. 36 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 3: He's even asked other people, and so I've I've really 37 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 3: benefited from Yeah, my interactions with Jesse. 38 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the man has always been a he'd be 39 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 2: like if New Mexico or a VRBO, he'd be a 40 00:02:58,919 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 2: super host. 41 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: Thanks for the kind wordscount. 42 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: Uh so you had. Jesse and I met in New Mexico. 43 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 2: We were standing on the edge of a landlocked wilderness 44 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 2: area called the Sabinoso Wilderness Area, which was, as I said, 45 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: completely land locked. There was no public access to this 46 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 2: public ground, and we were part of a coalition to 47 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 2: speak with then Department of the Interior Secretary Zinki, who 48 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 2: is a state center to your mind, and to talk 49 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 2: with him about why the BLM should be able to 50 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 2: acquire a ranch called the rim Rock Rose Ranch and 51 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 2: gain access to this super cool wilderness area. At the time, 52 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: Jesse was a custom home builder. And were you an 53 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 2: officer of what New Mexico bow Hunters at that time? 54 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: Cal I was the president of the United bow Hunters 55 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: of New Mexico, which was an organization I'd founded some 56 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:17,679 Speaker 1: number of years before. 57 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 2: And how'd you get around to founding that? 58 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: Oh, it's an interesting story. But I was working in 59 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 1: real estate and I was a contractor, and I got 60 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: a call from a guy out of Wisconsin who wanted 61 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: me to help him find a commercial retail space and 62 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: perhaps build him a custom home. He flew into New 63 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 1: Mexico as we were traveling around. He started asking about 64 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: our state's bow hunting organization. I described to him who 65 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: the organization I was a member of, which was the 66 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: San Dia Crest Bowhunters Association, and he asked me all 67 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: about the organization. And as I described our activities, the 68 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 1: three d shoots, the barbecues, all the things, he said, 69 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: what you're describing to me is a rod and gun club. 70 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: I'm talking about an advocacy organization, an organization that gets 71 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: involved in politics and is working at the state legislature 72 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: and working with a state Game commission. And I responded 73 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: by saying, well, we don't have anything like that here. 74 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: And he was astonished to learn that New Mexico, a 75 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: destination state for bow hunters, didn't have a state bow 76 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: hunting organization representing the interests of that community in the state. 77 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: And he essentially mandated that I started an organization if 78 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: I was interested in earning his business. And so that's 79 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: how the United bow Hunters of New Mexico was born. 80 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: And you've got to been at it ever since, right, 81 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 2: So you went from a successful builder to a guy 82 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 2: who really fights for a paycheck as executive director. Is 83 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 2: that or is it Director of New Mexico Wildlife Federation. 84 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I now serve. As of December twenty eighteen, I 85 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: serve as the executive director of the New Mexico Wildlife Federation. 86 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: So after the present in the United Bow Hunters of 87 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: New Mexico for nearly a decade, I developed a close 88 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: relationship with our state's largest and oldest sporting organization, which 89 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: is the New Mexico Wildlife Federation, founded in nineteen fourteen 90 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: by Aldo Leopold. Here we are just a couple of 91 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: days after the one hundredth anniversary of the designation of 92 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: the Helo Wilderness and the seventy fifth anniversary of the 93 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 1: publishing of the San County Almanac. I'm proud to say 94 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: that I actually have the same job that Aldo Leopold 95 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: first held when the New Mexico Wildlife Federation was formed. 96 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: At that time it was called the New Mexico Game 97 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: Protective Association, although Leopold was the very first executive director. 98 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: Years later, the organization decided it was important to work 99 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: on behalf of all wildlife in the state, not just 100 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: those species that we hunt and fish for, so the 101 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 1: name was changed in the New Mexico Wildlife Federation and 102 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: here we are well over one hundred years after that, 103 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,919 Speaker 1: and I'm honored to be leading the organization and walking 104 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: in the footsteps of Aldo Leopold. 105 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 2: And what type of worked does New Mexico Wildlife Federation do. 106 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: Well kell our work ranges. It's a wide variety of 107 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: things we operate in. One of them is policy. So 108 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: we're very very active at the state legislature, very active 109 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: with the State Game Commission, and very active with our 110 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: federal delegation working on the federal laws that move through 111 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: Congress that have an effect on hunting and fishing and 112 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: public land access in the state of New Mexico. In 113 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: addition to the advocacy and policy work we do on 114 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: the ground habitat projects across the state, we're continually working 115 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: to grow our public land assets by doing things like 116 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: the recent addition to the sabiinos So Wilderness, the place 117 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: that you mentioned you and I first met not too 118 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: long ago. We added an additional nine eight and fifty 119 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: five acres to that wilderness area with the purchase of 120 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: another private ranch that was for sale on the open market. 121 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: Is willing seller, willing buyer. We raise the money and 122 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: purchased the property and then donate it to our federal 123 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: Land Management agency in that case, the BLM for addition 124 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: to the Sabino So Wilderness. Just two years ago, we 125 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: created a new state Wildlife Management Area that's over fifty 126 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: five thousand acres of additional public land. That again was 127 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: a private ranch that went up for sale on the market. 128 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: We raised the money to purchase the ranch and helped 129 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: ranch become owned by the New Mexico State Game Commission 130 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: as a state Wildlife Management Area. And we also do 131 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: a ton of outreach work with youth, our three type activities, 132 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: introducing kids to the outdoors, taking kids on hunting and 133 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: fishing trips. So the range of work that we do 134 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: is pretty broad, but it's all centered on protecting our 135 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: public lands, waters and wildlife for all. 136 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 2: Heck yeah, well I know because E plus and you know, 137 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 2: landowner tags in general have been a real hot topic 138 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 2: in New Mexico. You know, ranging from who qualifies for 139 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 2: landowner tags would be a contentious issue. You what, what 140 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: the distribution of tags are in New Mexico has been 141 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 2: a huge topic over the years, as in, you have 142 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: a pool of tags, let's say one hundred, what percent 143 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 2: go to resident, what go to non resident, what go 144 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 2: to outfitters, what go to landowners? How is that broken 145 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: out and distributed? That's a big topic. And then this idea, 146 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 2: it's not it's it's a it's a program right of 147 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 2: allowing landowners to sell tags to the highest bidder, right 148 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 2: sell sell the opportunity to public wildlife to whoever wants 149 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 2: to pay the most for it. And how did you 150 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 2: think I did on that E plus breakdown at the beginning? 151 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: So I think that was all good, Cail, Yeah, that 152 00:09:58,160 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: was all good. 153 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 2: Okay, So where are we at right now in this 154 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 2: E plus conversation? 155 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to start with I'm going to start 156 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: with a couple of things, and I'll be concise here 157 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: because I recognize your time is valuable and the time 158 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: of your listeners is very valuable as well. But I'd 159 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: like to start by explaining that what we're going to 160 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: be talking about here is the privatization of wildlife, which 161 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: the Public Trust Doctrine makes clear is a public trust resource. 162 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: And the reason I want to preface it with that 163 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: is because this conversation is relevant to every single listener 164 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: in the United States of America who's listening to your 165 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: show right now. So though I'm from New Mexico and 166 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 1: e plus's New Mexico specific program, if you live in 167 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: the United States and you care about hunting big game, 168 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: this issue matters to you, and I encourage you to 169 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: stay tuned in and listen. So what we have with 170 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: e plus is a program called the ELK Private Land 171 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: Use System, and I'm going to get into that in 172 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: just a minute, but before I do that, I'm going 173 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: to talk about the broad overview of how elk tags 174 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: are distributed in the state of New Mexico. First of all, 175 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: it should be known that elk tags, all public ELK tags, 176 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: are in the public draw, so there are no over 177 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 1: the counter opportunities like you would find in some Western states. 178 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: So the way it works is, if you're a hunter 179 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: who wants to hunt elk in New Mexico, you can 180 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: apply for a tag in the public draw. The way 181 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: that draw works, eighty four percent of all of the 182 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 1: tags in the draw go to New Mexico residents. Okay, 183 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: ten percent of the tags in the public draw are 184 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: exclusively available to people who have a legally binding contract 185 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: with an outfitter. So whether a resident or non resident, 186 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: the only way to access that ten percent pool of 187 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: tags is to have a legally binding contract with an outfitter, 188 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: and that leaves only six percent of tags available to 189 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: non residents of New Mexico who are applying in the 190 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: public draw. Only six percent of the draw tags are available, 191 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 1: so that all sounds fairly reasonable minus the outfit or 192 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: set aside. That's a difficult thing to justify, and I 193 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: think that flies in the face of the state's anti 194 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: donation clause. But that's a conversation for another day. What's 195 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 1: important to realize is just over half of the total 196 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: ELK tags issued in the state of New Mexico actually 197 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: go into the draw, and that's something a lot of 198 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: New Mexico resident hunters didn't realize until recently, when the 199 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: New Mexico Wildlife Federation filed an Inspection of Public Records 200 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 1: Act request to retrieve all of this data, and then 201 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: published a report called take Back Your Elk. Anyone can 202 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: find that at takebackyorelk dot com. But what we learned 203 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: is that thirty eight percent of all ELK tags in 204 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 1: the state of New Mexico are issued to private landowners 205 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: and not ever included in the public draw. Thirty eight 206 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: percent of every ELK tag in New Mexico issued through 207 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: the private landowner system, this eplus system. So when you 208 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: factor in that thirty eight percent and E plus, the 209 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: vast majority of which cal are sold to non residents. 210 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: And I say that not because I have anything against 211 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,959 Speaker 1: non residents, that's for sure, But in the HeLa, for example, 212 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: it's not uncommon to see an ELK tag sell for 213 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: twenty five thousand or thirty thousand dollars and New Mexico 214 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: and New Mexicans quite frankly can't afford to compete with 215 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: the millions of hunters across the country who have the 216 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: financial ability to pay those kind of rates. So nearly 217 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: eighty percent of the E plus tags are sold to 218 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: non residents of New Mexico. But because of this system, 219 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: this complicated system of tag distribution, one number that I 220 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 1: think is important for your listeners to understand is that 221 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: in the state of New Mexico, only fifty five percent 222 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: of every single ELK tag issued in the state. You 223 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 1: take every single tag for ELK in the state, only 224 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: fifty five percent end up in the hands of a 225 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: New Mexico resident. In Montana, it's eighty nine percent. In 226 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: Utah it's ninety two percent. In Arizona it's ninety two percent. 227 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: So when you compare New Mexico to other Western states, 228 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: you see how far out of line we are when 229 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: it comes to the way tags are distributed and how 230 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: that affects resident hunting opportunity. Another statistic cal that I 231 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: think is important for your listeners to understand is that 232 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: in the inter Mountain West, you take all the inter 233 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: Mountain West states, New Mexico only contributes five percent of 234 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: the total elk tags that are issued in the entire 235 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: inter Mountain West. But if you look at all of 236 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: the privatized tags in the inter Mountain West, seventy two 237 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: percent of those come out of the state of New Mexico. 238 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: So even though we only contribute five percent of the 239 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: total elk tags, seventy two percent of the total privatized 240 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: elk tags are coming from New Mexico, and that is 241 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: taking them out of the running to be issued to 242 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: New Mexico residents essentially through the public draw system. And 243 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: this is a good opportunity to remind your listeners that 244 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: the North American model of wildlife cons servation specifically states 245 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: that opportunity for hunting our public game should be democratically allocated, 246 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: and I think it's clear that this violates that. Now, 247 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: jumping into the E plus specifics, it's important to recognize 248 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: there's no acreage requirements. There are places getting elk and 249 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: I've said elk tags, and I'm gonna have to take 250 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: just a quick step back because this is where it 251 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: gets a little complicated, and I don't want to lose folks. 252 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: But this is an important thing to distinguish. When the 253 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: Department issues these opportunities to private landowners to sell to 254 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: the highest bidder, they're not actually issuing them a tag. 255 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: What they're issuing them is a unique five digit code 256 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: that they refer to as an authorization. So let's say 257 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: that you want to come down to New Mexico, cal 258 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: and you want to hunt elk in the Hila, but 259 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: you don't draw a tag because again, only six percent 260 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: of the tags are six percent of forty percent, I 261 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: mean six percent of sixty percent. I'm sorry, So forty 262 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: percent of the tags don't get in the draw. That 263 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: leaves sixty percent of the tags in the draw. Of 264 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: those that are in the draw. As a non resident 265 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: who applies without an outfitter, you're only able to access 266 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: six percent of those, So you can see that your 267 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: odds of drawing a tag are dismal. But if you've 268 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: got the financial ability, you can purchase one of these 269 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: five digit codes from a landowner who has a five 270 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: acre ranch in the HeLa. For example, you might pay 271 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: twenty five or thirty thousand dollars for that tag. But 272 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: then when you purchase for that authorization, I'm sorry, but 273 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: when you purchase it, you go on the department's website 274 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: and you enter that five digit code, and that gives 275 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: you the exclusive ability to purchase your tag. So as 276 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: a non resident, you're going to spend about eight hundred 277 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: dollars on the tag. That's what the New Mexico Department 278 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: a game and fish gets out of the deal that 279 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: eight hundred dollars fee seven hundred and eighty seven dollars, 280 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: And what the landowner gets out of the deal is 281 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: whatever they sold you that five digit code for five 282 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: thirty thousand, whatever you were willing to pay. Okay, but 283 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: now they own the five acres. You as the hunter. Okay, 284 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: if that's a unit wide tag, and I'll differentiate the two. 285 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: You've already kind of alluded to it in the introduction. 286 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: But in that unit wide tag you've just purchased, you 287 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: have the ability to use that tag on all six 288 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: hundred thousand acres of say Game Management Unit sixteen B. 289 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: That's a that's Ahila Wilderness Unit. We're just celebrating one 290 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: hundredth anniversary, so we'll stay on that theme. You bought 291 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: a tag for sixteen B. You bought a unit wide 292 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: landowner tag. The landowner has five acres, but you bought 293 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 1: a tag that's good on six hundred thousand acres. But 294 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:46,640 Speaker 1: because that landowner opted for the unit wide option, all 295 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: of the other people who drew that tag, you know, 296 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 1: let's say there were twenty five tags issued or sixty 297 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: five tags issued, well, they now have the ability to 298 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: hunt that landowner's five acres. And so the landowner opens 299 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 1: up five acres in exchange for selling access to hunt 300 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 1: elk on six hundred thousand acres of public ground. So 301 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 1: you can see how disproportionate the benefit is to the 302 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: public compared to the benefit to the landowner. Now, if 303 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 1: a landowner had chose a ranch only option, in other words, 304 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: the tag is not good unit wide, then that tag 305 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,959 Speaker 1: is only valid on the private land only on the 306 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: private deeded acres. So what's interesting is the landowner gets 307 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: to make that choice. Department of Game and Fish has 308 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: no influence whether the landowner chooses ranch only or unit wide. 309 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: And so what you find is if a landowner has 310 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: property that hold elk, where there are elk to be 311 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: hunted during elk season, the landowner almost always chooses ranch 312 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 1: only because they don't have to allow any of the 313 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 1: public on the private tags they sell. They have full 314 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: control over who's coming to their property to access them. 315 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: They control the price of the tag, they control who 316 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: they sell the tag to, therefore control full access to 317 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: their private land. So when you see the unit wide 318 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: option chosen, what you can almost always automatically assume is 319 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: that there are no elk on the private land that's 320 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: being opened up for hunting during hunting season. That's essentially 321 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: a given. I don't know any hunter who's buying a 322 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: unit wide landowner tag and is hunting on the private land. Conversely, 323 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 1: I don't know any hunter who draws a public land 324 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: tag who's saying, man, I'm going to go hunt that 325 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 1: private piece that's opened because he sold a unit wide tag. 326 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: The fact that he sold it as unit y tells 327 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: you it's not worth hunting those deeded acres anyway. 328 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 2: Or those elk. You couldn't just count on them being there. 329 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: If it's a unit wide tag, they are almost never there. 330 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 1: You can almost count on them not being there. Now, 331 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 1: that's not to say that they're not ever there in 332 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: order for a landowner to qualify for tags. And this 333 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: gets a little complicated because New Mexico's divided into three 334 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: types of management zones for elk. The first one is 335 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: called the secondary management zone. A secondary management zone is 336 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: where the department doesn't really manage those areas for elk. 337 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: In other words, they're likely elk there. There's probably some elk. 338 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: It might be kind of fringe habitat into the grasslands. 339 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 1: It's starting to become pronghorn habitat. But there are elk 340 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: periodically in the area. Things like that. If a landowner 341 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: owns property in a second management zone, they don't even 342 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: have to worry about it. They don't even have to 343 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: worry about qualifying for anything because they can sell unlimited 344 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: ELK tags to be used on their private property. There's 345 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: absolutely no limit to how many they can sell. Okay, 346 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: that's in the secondary management zone. Then you have something 347 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: called the section. 348 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 2: Is that elk in general or is that cow only? 349 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 1: Or they could sell cow bull Either sex makes no difference. 350 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: They could sell authorizations to hunt elk rifle, bow, doesn't 351 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: make a difference, unlimited as many as they want, period 352 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: for anybody to buy and can hunt exclusively on the 353 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 1: deeded acreage. They're not hunting unit wide, they're not hunting 354 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: public land with those authorizations, but they can hunt on 355 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: the deeded acres and the landowners can sell unlimited amount. Okay, 356 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 1: And this is also interesting to know in New Mexico 357 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: and the entire state. This is kind of an aside, 358 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: but the entire state, any landowner can sell unlimited tags 359 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 1: for deer and pronghorn on their deeded land. There's absolutely 360 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: zero limit to the number of deer, prong horned tags 361 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 1: any landowner can sell to harvest those species on their 362 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: private land. Which is hard to comprehend. 363 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 2: Those are native native species, correct. 364 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: Those are definitely native species. 365 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 2: Let's just stick with this aside for one second, because 366 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 2: it is very strange, and I question I question it 367 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 2: every time I hear it, Jesse, because it strikes me 368 00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 2: as so on after all, your adjacent to Texas. You're 369 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 2: not Texas, right, So what where did this come from? 370 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 2: Was this like back in the cattle days where folks 371 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 2: were like, we don't want anything competing with the grazing 372 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 2: opportunity our cattle have. Where's it? Where's it come from? 373 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 1: Uh? That's I think that's part of it. But we 374 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: used to have a system similar to E plus that 375 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,199 Speaker 1: was called A plus. It was the antelope system, and 376 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 1: in that system there was actually a public benefit. So 377 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: the way it worked is landowners who had pronghorn would 378 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 1: get X number of tags to sell to whoever they 379 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: wanted to sell, but in exchange for that, they had 380 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: to allow some percentage of public hunters onto their private 381 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: needed property. And that's not uncommon. You see that in 382 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: some states across the West. Utah does a particularly good 383 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: job of instilling a program like that in their state 384 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: with some of their private landowners. But the A plus 385 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 1: system also felt very disproportionate. That the amount of benefit 386 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: that the private landowners got seemed like it was far 387 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: too large when compared to the public benefit. So the 388 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: sportsman of the state really rose up and protested the program, 389 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: and the department said, fine, we're going to do away 390 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 1: with it. Then here's how we'll do it. Everything on 391 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: public land will be a draw only. You have to 392 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: apply and draw a tag for public land prong horn. 393 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: Everything on private's going to be one hundred percent up 394 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: to the private landowner. They can do whatever they want 395 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 1: with their herds on private land. The result of this CAW, 396 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: just for the sake of comparison, is that only thirty 397 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: seven percent of every single prong horn issued in the 398 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: state of New Mexico ends up in the hands of 399 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 1: a New Mexico resident. You imagine living in a state 400 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: where out of all of the tags for a particular 401 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: native species issued, only thirty seven percent go to the 402 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: residents of that state. I mean, it's really a frustrating 403 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 1: system to live with, and that's why we're trying so 404 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: hard to change it. But it's an uphill. 405 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 2: Bat Yeah, it is. It is. You know, we're like 406 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 2: the ten percent holdover, which you know, we can talk 407 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 2: about it a later time as to how true that 408 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 2: is in states like Montana and Idaho is kind of 409 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 2: like the Golden rule, right, It's it's pretty interesting and again, right, 410 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 2: we're dealing with public wildlife. But let's get back to 411 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 2: the elk side of things, and I want to hit 412 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 2: you with a couple of things here. 413 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 1: So well, so what I could do kel and I apologize, 414 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 1: but I was getting into I wanted to go through 415 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: the three management zones. Oh yeah, yeah, first if you 416 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: just finished that thought. So we talked about the secondary 417 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: management zone. They sell unlimited tags for elk that if 418 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 1: a landowner's property is in a secondary management zone, there's 419 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: no limit to how many elk they can sell to 420 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: be harvested on their private needed land. But then you 421 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: have something called the primary management zone. And this is 422 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: kind of interesting because these are zones that are almost 423 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: ranch specific. So if you have a large landowner with 424 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: a huge ranch, they'll make that ranch. They'll just call 425 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: that particular property a special management zone. So now that 426 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 1: ranch is the zone. And basically what a special management 427 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 1: zone is is where the Department of Game in Fish says, 428 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: you know that landowner has a huge habitat most of 429 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: the elk that live on that ranch live there year round. 430 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: They're not going from public to private. It's such an 431 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: expansive ranch. Let's just let them manage it like they 432 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: can do whatever they want. So the department still issues 433 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: them these authorizations to be converted to tags, but the 434 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: department kind of regulates how many they get, but in 435 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: my experience it's kind of like not really. A landowner 436 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 1: tells the department how many they want, and the department 437 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: essentially gives them how many they request, and the landowners 438 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: generally just control one hundred percent of the population management 439 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: of the game in their special management zone. Then you 440 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: have what's called the primary manage zone and the primary 441 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: management zone or smaller ranches. Again, there's no acreage requirements, 442 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 1: so it could be one acre, five acres, one hundred acres, 443 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: one thousand acres, but they're not big enough ranches to 444 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: be their own zone. They're not big enough ranches to 445 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 1: be considered special management zone ranches. In the primary management zone, 446 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: that's primal cabitat and that's elk populations that are living 447 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: part of their life on public and part of their 448 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 1: life on private land most often, and that's where landowners 449 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: are issued these authorizations and making the determination if they're 450 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: going to keep them ranch only or if they're going 451 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: to make them unit wide. So that's how the three 452 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 1: management zones work. 453 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 2: Boy, that's not the program I grew up with. So 454 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 2: it's very very interesting, very very confusing as well too. 455 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 2: But so you know, it's fair to say that you, Jesse, 456 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 2: don't seem to be overly thrilled with neither the tag 457 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 2: allocation nor the management plan right now. 458 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very fair to say. Cal. It's the most 459 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: egregious system imaginable, and it violates the North American model 460 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 1: on many different levels. The amount of privatization and commercialization 461 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: that's at play here is huge. It's incredibly difficult to change. 462 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: E plus exists as a game commission rule, a rule 463 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: created by our state Game Commission. But the chair of 464 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: our New Mexico State Game Commission is a guy who's 465 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: the hunt manager for a property called the Trout Stalkers Ranch, 466 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: which you might remember from some of our stream access discussions. 467 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: So his hunt manager, who distributes the E plus tags 468 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: for that ranch, is in charge of handing those out 469 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: selling those auctioning those off, doing whatever he will with them. 470 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: He's the chair of our state Game Commission. So this 471 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: rule exists at the state Game Commission. So naturally to 472 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: change it, you'd want to go lobby the commission. But 473 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,439 Speaker 1: when the chair of the Commission is the recipient of 474 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 1: this extremely lucrative financial program for private landowners. He's a 475 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 1: manager of that program for a specific ranch. You can 476 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: see why this is a frustrating and difficult issue to 477 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: be involved with currently in the state of New Mexico. 478 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, and I think we should get into that more. 479 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 2: But I want to ask you about, like, this is 480 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 2: what I would hear when I'm when I'm talking about 481 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 2: these proposals when they come up in Montana, right because 482 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 2: you know, as you know, like we have these big 483 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 2: we have this massive influx of big, big dollars, just 484 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 2: flat out retirees coming in grabbing what you know, used 485 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 2: to be real ranch property is now recreational ranch property. 486 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 2: And they folks come in, have an idea of what 487 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 2: they want to do with their dreams with their big 488 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 2: Montana ranch and and and then realize that our state 489 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 2: hunting and angling regulations, our access laws don't really match 490 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 2: up with what they thought, and they want to start 491 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 2: changing this stuff. And so we're we're dealing with that 492 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 2: here in Montana as far as like transferable tags, landowner tags, 493 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 2: all all this stuff. And when I have these discussions, 494 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 2: I'm always hit with a couple of things, is, well, 495 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 2: what is the incentive for a landowner to have good habitat, 496 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 2: Like why why would they they harbor these animals when 497 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 2: it clearly isn't good for growing crops or maintaining you know, 498 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 2: healthy pastures for for cattle. And then the other part 499 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,959 Speaker 2: of this is that you got to you got to 500 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 2: give somewhere in ordered to see some benefits on the 501 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 2: access side. And so like on the E plus argument 502 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 2: in New Mexico, you know, we we've had plenty of 503 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 2: folks right in and say, well, this is how I 504 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 2: use E plus. And because you have that if you 505 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 2: draw that tag, you can access through ranches that are 506 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 2: offering the unit wide tags and get to chunks of 507 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 2: ground like Sabi no so used to be, Like it's 508 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 2: a landlocked chunk of public out there. So that unit 509 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 2: wide ranch that borders it may not be the best 510 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 2: elk habitat, or it may not be holding elk after 511 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 2: the first week of the season, but I can walk 512 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 2: through it and get to a place that does. It 513 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 2: opens up a lot more of that checkerboard. And if 514 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 2: E plus were to go away, all that access would 515 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 2: go away. 516 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: See that's a really great question to callen one that 517 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up because there's a couple truths here. 518 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: Where the truth is that wildlife depend on habitat on 519 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: both public and private land. It's true that wildlife doesn't 520 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: recognize the boundaries that separate private land from public land. 521 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: Those things are true, but that's the case in every 522 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: single state in the West. That's not unique to New Mexico. 523 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: And so when we talk about eplus, we talk about 524 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: reforming E PLUS, we talk about changing E PLUS. The 525 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: argument from the recipients of the tags or these authorizations 526 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: tends to be, well, without us, there would be no elk. 527 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: If E PLUS went away, your elk populations are going 528 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: to be an absolute decline. But when you look at 529 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: the West and not already, given some comparisons of how 530 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: other states, the level of privatization we've seen in other states, 531 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: when you look across the West, elk populations overwhelmingly are 532 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: over objective, okay, And those states do not have E plus, 533 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: they don't have a gregious privatization to the level that 534 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: we do. I absolutely agree with you though that incentivizing 535 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: habitat stewardship is imported, and I think private landowners should 536 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: absolutely be able to leverage quality habitat that harbors wildlife 537 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: for increased incentive. And that's one of the biggest problems 538 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: with unit wide authorizations. They do the absolute opposite. A 539 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: landowner is not incentivized to have wildlife on their land. 540 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: If they had elk on their land, they would choose 541 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: ranch only. If they had elk on their land, they 542 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: wouldn't choose unit wide because they don't want all of 543 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: the general public on their private ground. They choose unit 544 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: wide because there are no elk on their property. So 545 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: they're selling these authorizations that are going to be used 546 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: on public land, which in no way benefits the landowner 547 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: to be proper stewards of habitat on their private needed ground. 548 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: So the unit wide portion of E plus is actually, 549 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: if anything, it distance. I mean, it provides the opposite 550 00:32:55,080 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: of incentive for stewardship of habitat. Now for the ranch only, though, 551 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: I would say that these tags certainly provide incentive for 552 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: landowners to really take great care of their habitat. Okay, 553 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: there's no question about that. But the fact remains that 554 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: the landowner is selling access to something that they don't own. 555 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: They're selling access to a publicly owned resource, they're selling 556 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: private access for individual profit to a publicly owned resource. 557 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: So I'm not saying it's not a good cause to 558 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: incentivize habitat. But if I walked into our Statehouse and 559 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: took a painting off the wall and decided I was 560 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: going to auction it off and give the proceeds to 561 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: the local cancer society, well, sure, that's a good cause. 562 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: But I just took a painting that belongs to all 563 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: of the people of the state, public property and auctioned 564 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: it off because I decided it was a good cause. 565 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: That's not appropriate. What needs to happen is something more 566 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: similar to what happens in Montana with block management. Let's 567 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: provide an incentive program for landowners, but let's incentivize them 568 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: based on what they own, which is the land. The 569 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: thing we could we could have a draw that would 570 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: include all kinds of tags that are only available on 571 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: private deeded land. But you still have to dry draw 572 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: those tags through a democratic process, a public draw, a 573 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 1: lottery essentially, but when you acquired that tag, you would 574 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,720 Speaker 1: have to pay a trespass fee to access the private 575 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: property on which to hunt. I'm completely supportive of a 576 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: system like that because absolutely a landowner should be able 577 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: to sell access to the land. The issue I have 578 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: is a landowner selling access to public wildlife. You know, 579 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,839 Speaker 1: sell what you own, not what I own. 580 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 2: Where is this now? I imagine like you're not the 581 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,760 Speaker 2: only person who thinks this way, right, Like, what's happening 582 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 2: in the state of New Mexico. To address this? How 583 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 2: many eyeballs were on the report that you mentioned? It 584 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 2: was a take back r elk. 585 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, take back, let's take back your elk dot com. 586 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 1: We've now done two versions and the momentum is growing rapidly. 587 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,760 Speaker 1: But here's what happened. For a long time, people didn't 588 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 1: realize how bad this was because the data was never available. 589 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 1: This has never been published by the Department of Game 590 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,320 Speaker 1: and Fitch. They always talked about how the draw works. 591 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,759 Speaker 1: Residents GID eighty four percent of the tags. Residents GID 592 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: eighty four percent of the tags, what are you complaining about? 593 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: But they would never provide the information as to how 594 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: many tags are carved out and not included in the 595 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: public draw. So the Mexico Wildlife Federation filed an inspection 596 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,879 Speaker 1: of public records at request. The department refused to give 597 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: us the information, so we had to get the Attorney 598 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,839 Speaker 1: General involved. They refused to give us public information. After 599 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 1: we filed the paperwork requesting it, we had to get 600 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: the Attorney General involved. They still refused, they resisted, they 601 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: didn't want to give us the information. We had to 602 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: finally recruit support from the Foundation for Open Government. It 603 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: took us nine more scal to get the data to 604 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: create the very first take Back Your ELK report. So 605 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 1: once we got that data and built this report, there 606 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,760 Speaker 1: was a groundswell of movement from the public to start 607 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: demanding change. And that's grown and grown and grown, and 608 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: I was starting to feel like the Game Commission was 609 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 1: about to take action. And that's when just last month 610 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: the governor put the new chair of the Commission in place, 611 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 1: who's a direct E plus recipient. So to think that 612 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: we're going to fix this at the Game Commission under 613 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: the current governor, I don't think is realistic. I think 614 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: likely this is going to take legislation or perhaps it's 615 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 1: going to have to get figured out in the courtroom, 616 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: similar to the way stream access was dealt with. That's 617 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: that's my fear. And here's why that's the case, cal 618 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: Because it's the new Mexico Council of Outfitters and Guides 619 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: published recently that E plus tags. They're trying to say 620 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: that eplus is necessary for our states economy. I disagree. 621 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: I think hunting provides tremendous economic benefit, and there's no 622 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: question non resident hunters provide tremendous economic benefit to rural 623 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: New Mexico communities. That's the case in every state across 624 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: the West. If your listeners haven't seen the new film 625 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,279 Speaker 1: that was just released I worked on called Shyris. It's 626 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 1: about a non resident moushunt in Montana. Was produced by 627 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 1: Driftwood Outdoors. I was a part of that process. Look 628 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 1: up the film. So I recognize the economic benefit, but 629 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: the E plus tags. According to the Mexico Council of 630 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: Outfits and Guides, in twenty twenty one, the authorizations the 631 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: unique five digit codes sold for almost eighty four million dollars. 632 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: Eighty four million dollars went into the pockets of private 633 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 1: landowners as a result of selling those authorizations. Cal The 634 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,399 Speaker 1: annual operating budget of our New Mexico Department of Game 635 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 1: and Fish is fifty million per year, so these authorizations 636 00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 1: are selling for eighty four million dollars in twenty and 637 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 1: our annual budget for the entire state Wildlife Agency is 638 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,360 Speaker 1: fifty million dollars. So, once you've created this program and 639 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: people have become dependent upon it, and their personal budgets 640 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: and their ranch budgets and their business plans have incorporated 641 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: the annual income from the sale of these authorizations, taking 642 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 1: that away is extremely difficult. It's very, very hard, and 643 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: there's no question that it impacts people. It impacts families, 644 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: it impacts ranches, it impacts ranchers, it impacts farmers. There's 645 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 1: an impact after you've created this dependence, you know, the 646 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: subsidy essentially. And the reason I say this is because Montana. 647 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: There are forces in Montana. I don't have to convince 648 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: you that would like to see Montana start down a 649 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: similar path as New Mexico. I went to Montana just 650 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago to participate in the National 651 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 1: Assembly of Sportsman Caucus Summit. I was there to speak 652 00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,279 Speaker 1: on this topic. I was there to provide a cautionary 653 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: tale and Warren Montana residents, do not allow your state 654 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: to go down this path. Don't allow fish wildlife in 655 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,839 Speaker 1: parks to start experimenting in this privatization scheme. Because It's 656 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,919 Speaker 1: like a little snowball rolling down a really really steep hill, 657 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: and it grows and it grows, and it gets so 658 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 1: forceful and powerful and big and destructive that it can't 659 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,759 Speaker 1: be stopped. So I'm really am urging listeners of this 660 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 1: to recognize that you do not want to start down 661 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: this path at privatization. It's very, very dangerous for the 662 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: future of hunting. 663 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 2: And it's you know, it's not like New Mexico is 664 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 2: the only place growing big elk these days, right, right, 665 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 2: So it's not like the from a herd management standpoint, 666 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 2: it's not the thing that's holding up New Mexico el cunting. 667 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 1: Right, We're over objective on our elk curds. In almost 668 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,840 Speaker 1: every unit, our elk herds are doing just fine. You know. 669 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 1: The issue with this is this is a social issue. 670 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,720 Speaker 1: This is not a biological issue. Right. The elf doesn't 671 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 1: care who kills it or how much they paid to 672 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 1: do that. But this has really broad ramifications for the 673 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: future of hunting. And one of those cala is that 674 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 1: when hunting becomes a rich person's sport, which it's quickly 675 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 1: becoming in New Mexico. And I mean, you could see 676 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,359 Speaker 1: the advertisements all over social media this time of year, 677 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: everybody's selling New Mexico ELK cunting opportunities. If you buy 678 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:30,840 Speaker 1: these t shirts, you get entered into a drawing. You 679 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 1: want to raise money for the state of Arizona. They're 680 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:37,839 Speaker 1: raffling off New Mexico ELK tags. It's incredible what's happened here, 681 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 1: But it's all tied to money. And when we're trying 682 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 1: to protect and preserve and promote the future of this activity, 683 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 1: it makes it difficult when it's an activity that the 684 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 1: wealthier participating in. Because we know cal through poll after 685 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: poll after poll, that the general public supports hunting for food. 686 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 1: The general public generally supports the tradition and the heritage 687 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: and the culture that surrounds obtaining your protein from wild, 688 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 1: sustainable sources. What people don't like is someone spending thirty 689 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: thousand dollars so they could get some giant, magnificent, four 690 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: hundred inch set of antlers to hang above their executive 691 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 1: desk back at, you know, in their office. And the 692 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 1: perception of hunting is being affected by the system that's 693 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 1: currently in place in New Mexico, and that really scares me. 694 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 2: Well, you know, you know, being in camp with some 695 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:37,160 Speaker 2: past New Mexico Game Commission folks, they would argue that, 696 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 2: you know, those those landowner tags are also available to 697 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 2: New Mexico residents. So pricing wise, if a New Mexico 698 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,760 Speaker 2: resident were to purchase a landowner tag, do they pay 699 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,839 Speaker 2: a reduced fee to the state. At least do they 700 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 2: pay a resident fee to the state. 701 00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: If a resident buys a five digit authorization that five code, 702 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,759 Speaker 1: instead of paying you know, eight hundred dollars, they would 703 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 1: pay ninety dollars or whatever the resident fee is for 704 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: that tag. So yeah, they would pay the state the 705 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 1: reduced mount So the state actually benefits more when non 706 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:16,440 Speaker 1: residents purchased the codes. But the reason non residents purchased 707 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,799 Speaker 1: the codes is because New Mexicans just can't compete with 708 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,879 Speaker 1: the rest of the world when it comes to an 709 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: open market for the sale of these tags. It's just 710 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,800 Speaker 1: not feasible or realistic. At our Game Commission meeting recently 711 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 1: in Silver City, one of the ranchers stood up and 712 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,399 Speaker 1: made that point during the public comment period. He said, 713 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,319 Speaker 1: anybody could buy these tags, you know, residents could buy 714 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,399 Speaker 1: these two And he was a HeLa rancher who sells 715 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,480 Speaker 1: HeLa elk tags for very very high dollar, and the 716 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: very next public commenter stood up and said, yeah, anybody 717 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 1: could buy these tags, just like anybody can buy a 718 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 1: leer jet. I mean, that's the reality of it. Yeah, 719 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: anybody can buy them if you have those resources, and 720 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,800 Speaker 1: New Mexicans just can't compete in that arena. 721 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. New Mexico is typically, you know, top four or 722 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 2: five highest poverty rates in the US. 723 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: That's right, and as such, we need that high quality 724 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 1: protein in the freezers of our New Mexico families, and 725 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:19,759 Speaker 1: we need democratic process to allocate these opportunities. The fact 726 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: that it goes to the highest bid, of the fact 727 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,759 Speaker 1: that our New Mexico residents will sit out five, six, seven, 728 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 1: eight years trying to draw elk tags, studying draw odds, 729 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,279 Speaker 1: not applying for the best units, not applying for just 730 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,560 Speaker 1: trophy animals. I mean, I applied for cow elk tags 731 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:35,839 Speaker 1: this year, cal I didn't draw a tag. Same thing 732 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 1: I did last year. Applied for cow elk tags, didn't 733 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 1: draw a tag. Meanwhile, though, I've got the same people 734 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 1: coming to hunt my elk in this state year after 735 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,520 Speaker 1: year after year after year because they can afford to 736 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:49,799 Speaker 1: buy their way around the system, and that's what I 737 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 1: take issue with. 738 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:58,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it does get a little frustrating. And in 739 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:03,759 Speaker 2: a place where you can't buy ELK tags, and non 740 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,560 Speaker 2: residents for general ELK in the State of Montana typically 741 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 2: purchase or are typically guaranteed a tag every three years, 742 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,799 Speaker 2: if not two years. I still bump into a lot 743 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 2: of people and airports and trade shows and things that 744 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:22,880 Speaker 2: are are not residents of the state of Montana, but 745 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 2: they have an ELK or deer tag here every single 746 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:32,120 Speaker 2: year somehow. So even if it's not on the books, 747 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:40,640 Speaker 2: it still still does happen. But so I guess what 748 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:42,279 Speaker 2: what are next steps? I know you said it's it's 749 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:46,600 Speaker 2: a daunting process with the Game Commission, or or it 750 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:52,719 Speaker 2: appears as such. The chair the Commissioner has only been 751 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:58,399 Speaker 2: in place a month now, But where are the all 752 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,720 Speaker 2: the orgs at in regard words to trying to change 753 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,040 Speaker 2: this E plus process. 754 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,799 Speaker 1: Well, that's a really good question, Calum. So the chair 755 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,239 Speaker 1: was actually appointed back in March to the Commission and 756 00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:15,680 Speaker 1: then made Chair of the Commission just last month in May. 757 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:18,920 Speaker 1: But a lot of organizations have signed on to take 758 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 1: back your ELK that are very supportive their partners, including 759 00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,200 Speaker 1: Backcountry Hunters and Anglers in New Mexico. Chapter has been 760 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: with us since the very beginning on this and I 761 00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:30,680 Speaker 1: appreciate in their partnership. I commend them for their hard 762 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:34,120 Speaker 1: work on this issue. Hispanics and joined Camping Hunting in 763 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,800 Speaker 1: the Outdoors has been a great partner on this issue. 764 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 1: You know, we've got some we've got some support, we've 765 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,600 Speaker 1: got some help. Hunters of colors with us on this thing. 766 00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:48,279 Speaker 1: But some of the organizations are on the other side 767 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:49,840 Speaker 1: of the issue. And part of the reason for that 768 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:55,320 Speaker 1: is landowners who received these authorizations will will donate those 769 00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,600 Speaker 1: to organizations so that they can sell them at their 770 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,080 Speaker 1: fundraising banquets. You know, if I, if I get a hope, 771 00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,719 Speaker 1: especially if I have a special management zone, I can 772 00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,640 Speaker 1: give tags. If I own ver Mayho Ranch, Vermeyho Park Ranch, 773 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,879 Speaker 1: you're familiar with that, I'm sure sure I can hand 774 00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,960 Speaker 1: five tags to this nonprofit organization to auction off at 775 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:20,400 Speaker 1: their annual fundraising banquet. And when an organization is using 776 00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 1: that as a primary fundraising strategy, where do you think 777 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:25,799 Speaker 1: they're going to fall when it comes time to fix 778 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:31,440 Speaker 1: that system. It's really divided. Much of the conservation community, 779 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,120 Speaker 1: and many organizations that should be pulling in the same 780 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 1: direction across the board are kind of fragmented. And I've 781 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,640 Speaker 1: had offers. I'll just say this right here. I've had 782 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,200 Speaker 1: plenty of offers from landowners saying, hey, I'm you know what, 783 00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:44,759 Speaker 1: I know you don't like E plus. How about if 784 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,520 Speaker 1: I how about if I help support your organization by 785 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 1: providing you with some of this incentive here. And obviously 786 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 1: I'm opposed to the core about this E plus program 787 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,319 Speaker 1: and I'm not going to participate in accepting any of 788 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,920 Speaker 1: those type of offerings. But other organizations have been taking 789 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,319 Speaker 1: them for a long time. And I'll say that this 790 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,160 Speaker 1: didn't just happen overnight. This system started over forty years 791 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,840 Speaker 1: ago and it's just grown bigger and bigger and bigger. 792 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:16,759 Speaker 1: And that's why I used that snowball analogy earlier. You know, 793 00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,000 Speaker 1: it starts small and then gets out of control. 794 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,080 Speaker 2: To your point, there used to be a minimum requirement 795 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:28,799 Speaker 2: for landowners. Landowners had to meet a certain it was 796 00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:33,279 Speaker 2: a certain amount of acreage or had to demonstrate the 797 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,120 Speaker 2: fact that elk used their property for a certain amount 798 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,759 Speaker 2: of time throughout the year. And that was the only 799 00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:46,120 Speaker 2: way to be a part of this landowner tag program. 800 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,359 Speaker 2: And then you know, it wasn't all that long ago 801 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:52,800 Speaker 2: that that changed, right, It wasn't that way from the inception. 802 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:57,200 Speaker 1: Correct, Well, it actually changed for the better in twenty 803 00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,719 Speaker 1: eighteen is where they really before that, there was really 804 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,719 Speaker 1: no rules, and then in twenty eighteen the department made 805 00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:07,400 Speaker 1: some adjustments that created some criteria to determine whether or 806 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:11,080 Speaker 1: not landowners would receive authorizations. So it got a little 807 00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,600 Speaker 1: bit better. But the criteria doesn't involve eight well, it 808 00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:19,200 Speaker 1: does involve acreage, but it doesn't have a minimum requirement. 809 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:21,960 Speaker 1: So if I had five acres, I'm graded at a 810 00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,200 Speaker 1: higher level than if I had one acre. If I 811 00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:26,239 Speaker 1: have one hundred acres, I'm graded at a higher level 812 00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,560 Speaker 1: than I have five acres. But it's a point system, 813 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:32,080 Speaker 1: and a landowner has to achieve a minimum of seven points. 814 00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:33,640 Speaker 1: And the way you get those points is do you 815 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,239 Speaker 1: have forage on your property? Okay, there's some points for that. 816 00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,280 Speaker 1: Do you have a water source, you know, maybe natural 817 00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:43,319 Speaker 1: or human installed, Then there's some points for that. Do 818 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,799 Speaker 1: you have elk on the property, and can we prove 819 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,040 Speaker 1: that they don't have to be there during hunting season's 820 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,960 Speaker 1: That's one thing that's interesting. A lot of these lands 821 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,520 Speaker 1: do have elk at some part of the year, but 822 00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,440 Speaker 1: mostly on the unit wide ranchets. The elk are not 823 00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:58,920 Speaker 1: there during hunting season. They might be there during calving 824 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:03,080 Speaker 1: season and again, so there's there's obviously a benefit for 825 00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,239 Speaker 1: a landowner providing habitat for elk regardless of the time 826 00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:10,239 Speaker 1: of year, and there should be incentive programs for those landowners. 827 00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:16,200 Speaker 1: But to incentivize landowners with public wildlife is I think 828 00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 1: where the issue gets, in my mind inappropriate. 829 00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:25,520 Speaker 2: So if folks want to learn more about this and 830 00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,879 Speaker 2: try to get involved, where's the best like one two 831 00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,320 Speaker 2: three process, Well. 832 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,439 Speaker 1: The best thing to do is go to www. Dot 833 00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:37,160 Speaker 1: take Back your Elk, dot org or dot com I'm 834 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,760 Speaker 1: sorry dot com and you can sign up right there 835 00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,920 Speaker 1: and then we keep people updated on what's happening, what's changing, 836 00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,480 Speaker 1: you know, anything that affects this issue goes out on there. 837 00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:49,880 Speaker 1: There's also social media sites. You can just go on 838 00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,839 Speaker 1: Facebook or Instagram take Back your Elk you'll find those 839 00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,480 Speaker 1: pages there. You can sign up with the New Mexico 840 00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,160 Speaker 1: Wildlife Federation. It's free to sign up. You can join 841 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,040 Speaker 1: our newsletter you'll a monthly newsletter where we provide relevant 842 00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,320 Speaker 1: updates about all things hunting, fishing, conservation and public lands 843 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:10,560 Speaker 1: in New Mexico. Our website is www dot Nmwildlife dot 844 00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:15,560 Speaker 1: org again NM, like New Mexico Wildlife dot org. People 845 00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:18,760 Speaker 1: can sign up there. So those are the best things 846 00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,080 Speaker 1: to do, and we can from from that point we 847 00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:24,040 Speaker 1: can provide additional education and help guide folks as to 848 00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:26,400 Speaker 1: how they can make the biggest impact on the issues 849 00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,279 Speaker 1: that matter most of them. 850 00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:33,040 Speaker 2: Tarn, right, that's that's awesome. So yeah, you know, I've 851 00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:41,400 Speaker 2: probably applied to New Mexico probably seventeen eighteen different times, 852 00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:48,800 Speaker 2: not all in a row, and was there real early 853 00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:53,960 Speaker 2: in my guiding career and learning about some of these 854 00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:56,799 Speaker 2: tags for sale, and you know, quite honestly, they were 855 00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:01,640 Speaker 2: really reasonable, Like you could you could see how it 856 00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:03,759 Speaker 2: would make more sense to buy a tag than to 857 00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:07,319 Speaker 2: even deal with the draw, especially if you're gonna go 858 00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:13,319 Speaker 2: do it yourself, right, And then yeah, all these little 859 00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:18,080 Speaker 2: changes the outfitter preference, and you know, I've never drawn 860 00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,280 Speaker 2: a single tag in the state of New Mexico over 861 00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:25,520 Speaker 2: you know, probably somewhere in that we'll say, fifteen to 862 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:29,480 Speaker 2: eighteen different chances. I've I've thrown my hat in there, 863 00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,560 Speaker 2: and I've got to run around New Mexico quite a bit. 864 00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:39,200 Speaker 2: And yeah, I actually I have had two different landowner 865 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:43,279 Speaker 2: tags in my pocket, one just a couple of years ago, 866 00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:45,160 Speaker 2: hunting with Jason Phelps. 867 00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,160 Speaker 1: You guys on that on didn't you count? 868 00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,680 Speaker 2: Oh dude? I yeah, yeah, New Mexico got the best 869 00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:55,920 Speaker 2: part of me by far and away, by far and away, 870 00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,480 Speaker 2: And I packed those those bites around for about three months, 871 00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:03,359 Speaker 2: you know. But it's an amazing place to be. It's 872 00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:05,920 Speaker 2: an amazing place to hunt. But you know, despite all 873 00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:10,560 Speaker 2: these difficulties, Jesse, would you tell people to apply, You're 874 00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:11,760 Speaker 2: still applying, obviously. 875 00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:15,560 Speaker 1: Absolutely. I apply for every signal species our state offers. 876 00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:19,040 Speaker 1: I encourage non residents to apply, apply for everything you 877 00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,759 Speaker 1: can afford to apply for. It's a phenomenal state. I 878 00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,040 Speaker 1: absolutely love it. One things I love most to do 879 00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:27,799 Speaker 1: is actually take people who don't live here out on 880 00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:29,879 Speaker 1: the land and take them out on hunts and help 881 00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:33,040 Speaker 1: them enjoy this state that I love so much. So 882 00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:35,359 Speaker 1: I welcome folks to be here. I just want it 883 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,680 Speaker 1: to be a more fair process as to who gets 884 00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:41,359 Speaker 1: to come and enjoy these wonderful experiences. Another thing that's 885 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,719 Speaker 1: great is we don't have a point system, so unfortunately, 886 00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,680 Speaker 1: as a non resident, if you're not contracted with an outfitter, 887 00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:51,239 Speaker 1: you're applying for six percent of sixty percent of the 888 00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,560 Speaker 1: ELK tag. So your odds are not great, that's for sure. 889 00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,239 Speaker 1: But again, no point system, so there's someone's gonna draw 890 00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,320 Speaker 1: and it might as well be you. So absolutely continue 891 00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,640 Speaker 1: to apply. And we have some you know, other opportunities 892 00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,319 Speaker 1: for small game and waterfowl and different things that are 893 00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,839 Speaker 1: over the counter to and if anybody wants to reach 894 00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:13,240 Speaker 1: out to me for advice or talk to me about 895 00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,680 Speaker 1: this wonderful state, places to go and things to do, 896 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,200 Speaker 1: like Jordan was talking about earlier, with you know, sharing 897 00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,680 Speaker 1: some fishing spots and things. I'm not anti non resident 898 00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:24,319 Speaker 1: by any means whatsoever. I just wanted to be a 899 00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,040 Speaker 1: fair process. I don't like people with the most money 900 00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:30,160 Speaker 1: having the opportunity to buy away opportunity from those who 901 00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:33,960 Speaker 1: don't have the same resources. And I'm not anti outfitter. 902 00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,520 Speaker 1: I've hired outfitters in my life. I've hunted with outfitters, 903 00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:38,040 Speaker 1: and I have many friends who were outfitters. But I 904 00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,560 Speaker 1: don't think people who can afford the contract with outfitters 905 00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:43,280 Speaker 1: should get better draw odds. I just think you should 906 00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:45,960 Speaker 1: draw the tag, then hire the outfitter if that's the 907 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:50,160 Speaker 1: experience you're looking for. And so and I welcome. I 908 00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:52,960 Speaker 1: welcome people to this wonderful state. And I'm so privileged 909 00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:55,239 Speaker 1: Cal to have had the opportunity to spend time with 910 00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,239 Speaker 1: you here in the state and hanging out. I think 911 00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:00,239 Speaker 1: last time you were well maybe not last time. Time 912 00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:02,400 Speaker 1: you're in town running around the mountains chasing rabbits with 913 00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:03,000 Speaker 1: my recurve. 914 00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:06,200 Speaker 2: I think, yeah, darn right, rab Yeah, it's a trophy 915 00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:11,000 Speaker 2: squirrel state too, I'll tell you. But Jesse, thank you 916 00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,920 Speaker 2: so much for being on. It's New Mexico Wildlife Federation 917 00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,839 Speaker 2: and Jesse Dubella is the executive director over there. We 918 00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,759 Speaker 2: were talking about e plus today. Please write into a 919 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,400 Speaker 2: sk C a L that's Askcal at themeeater dot com 920 00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:26,879 Speaker 2: and let me know what's going on in your neck 921 00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:31,120 Speaker 2: of the woods. And please let us know about your 922 00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:36,040 Speaker 2: thoughts on e plus and I will collect Jordan and 923 00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:39,080 Speaker 2: I will collect all of the questions and we can 924 00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:42,440 Speaker 2: bounce them off Jesse and have him back on or whatever. 925 00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,640 Speaker 2: Fuels your fire in the conservation world. So Jesse, thank 926 00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:47,280 Speaker 2: you so much. 927 00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,160 Speaker 1: Hey Cal, thank you Ben. I really appreciate you. Thanks 928 00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:52,399 Speaker 1: for the show and keep up the great work. 929 00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,960 Speaker 2: My friend appreciate you too. 930 00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:04,000 Speaker 1: It have been an u