WEBVTT - Flew the Coop PT 2 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:06.760 I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:09.559 last twenty five years writing about true crime. 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.800 And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:16.400 worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:19.799 Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:21.720 compelling true crimes. 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:24.239 And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:26.040 new insights to old mysteries. 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:31.639 Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.360 cases through a twenty first century lens. 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.800 Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:45.720 This is Buried Bones. 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:03.760 Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you. 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:07.319 I'm doing well. I'm ready to get into this case again. 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:11.640 This missing woman who goes to find her fiance on 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:15.160 his chicken farm and then vanishes and her parents are 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:17.399 so upset about it. And then we make some pretty 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:20.600 big discoveries. And I know I left you hanging on 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:23.800 this case the last time, and we know that things 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:25.440 have gone very badly for Elsie. 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:29.520 Well, I would say so, I mean, considering she's dismembered 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:35.040 and scattered around Norman's potato farm and chicken coop areas, 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:37.240 so it's not a good place to be. 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:40.240 I want to give a little trigger warning. We have 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:44.360 some talk of suicide in this half of the episode, 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:47.160 so I just want everybody to know that we will 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.280 be talking about someone taking their own life. So we're 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:54.680 in England nineteen twenty four. There's a young woman you know, 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:59.120 named Elsie Cameron. She's engaged to a guy named Norman 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:02.720 Thorne who who has a chicken farm outside of London. 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:06.280 She lives in London there, as I said, engaged, but 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:10.600 he is creating some distance and after a few years 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.480 of dating and then they become engaged, maybe about a 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:17.560 year earlier. She says I'm pregnant. He says I'm in 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:20.960 love with someone else, and she says, I'm coming up 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:23.840 on December sixth. We know she shows up on December 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:27.360 fifth instead, and then her parents don't hear from her, 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:31.800 and it's total devastation I'm assuming from her parents when 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:35.880 the police do a search of his chicken farm and 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:40.040 they see some freshly dug dirt and they dig and 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:43.000 they find several key pieces of evidence, so her jewelry 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:46.320 a suitcase, and then of course they come up with 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:50.080 a human torso, which we were assuming is going to 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:55.000 be Elsie's. So Norman, when approached by the police, says, okay, 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:57.640 let me tell you what happened. First, I'll show you 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:00.919 where the rest of her body parts are fine, And 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:04.640 they find her legs, in her head and essentially enough 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:09.919 information to give them some idea of what happened. So 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:14.000 I think my big question was why would Norman do this? 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:16.720 I know that he's caught with a human torso on 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:20.519 his property. He's not admitting to murder. He is saying 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:23.960 I dismembered her. So then the big question is what 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:27.160 is Norman going to say happen to Elsie? Where he 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:30.359 is so willing to turn over all of this information 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:33.360 to the police and let them search wherever they want 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:36.280 on his chicken farm when he had denied even seeing 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:37.040 her before. 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:40.600 Sure, well, obviously he's caught in a lie, you know. 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:43.760 So now he's the evidence has been found, Elsie has 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:47.800 been found, and he's offering up information, you know. And 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:52.000 of course is he minimizing during you know, this stage 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:56.800 of confessing, there's always that possibility he may admit to 0:03:56.840 --> 0:04:00.240 select acts that he think are relatively minor and try 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:03.000 to point the finger at somebody else who's actually the 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:05.960 one responsible for the homicide. Now, I think, did you 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:08.240 say that he admitted to the dismemberment. 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.480 He will admit to the dismemberment. 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:14.920 Yes, got it, But he's pointing the finger somewhere else 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:16.320 for the actual homicide. 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:20.040 Sounds like it. So I'll tell you what Helena Normanton, 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:24.360 the barrister, says, because she was really heavily involved in 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.640 observing this case with this you know, kind of ilegal 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:31.160 eye on it. So Helena says that Norman had severed 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:34.200 the head halfway up the back of the neck, but 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:38.919 low down by the breastbone in front. Yeah, what is 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.640 that exactly? Because then they found the torso, and I 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.159 guess I assumed sort of, I don't know, maybe I 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:47.760 don't know the boundaries of what's considered a torso versus 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:49.240 a decapitation, you. 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:51.480 Know, at least the way that Helena is describing that, 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:56.880 And I'm not sure it's indicating the direction that you know, 0:04:56.920 --> 0:04:59.840 the cutting occurred, but she's describing that you have a 0:04:59.839 --> 0:05:02.560 c that's halfway up the back part of the neck 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:06.120 and then it's angled downward to the front to where 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:10.480 your breastbone. This is your sternum. So for whatever reason, 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:17.080 this decapitation took that path to remove Elsie's head. Now, 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:22.880 typically a torso is usually just the upper body the 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:26.520 rib cage down to the pelvis, and that the extremities 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:28.880 have been removed, so the arms, the legs, and the 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:32.839 head have been removed. That's usually how a torso is defined. 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:37.560 And oftentimes you'll see where a torso is further dissected 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:39.280 into an upper and lower part. 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:45.560 Okay, so at least we have information because we have 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:49.400 these body parts. Like I remember reading how all pieces 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:51.680 of the body would be valuable, but a torso would 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.359 be value vulnerable organs, we will know if she was 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:56.840 actually pregnant. Is that right? Is that what we can 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:57.680 assume here with. 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:01.880 The torso very possibly know with such a large part 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:07.040 of the body. Oftentimes the injuries that cause death are 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.280 present within the torso area, like a stabbing to the 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:14.719 heart or a gunshot wound, but not necessarily and with 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:20.040 Elsie's case, yes, it provided that the reproductive organs are 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:22.920 still present, that they would be able to determine if 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:23.880 she had been pregnant. 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:28.880 What Helena says, which is interesting, is that he had 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:34.440 put her head in a tin, and she believed it was. 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:37.800 And I think the prosecutors eventually will say that he 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:41.159 put her head in a tin to prevent its quick 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:46.240 decomposition as part of evidence, because the way he severed 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:51.120 her head preserved the neck. So the prosecutors believe that 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:54.240 he put this head in the tin so that they 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:57.120 will be able to clearly see her neck. Okay, do 0:06:57.160 --> 0:06:59.680 you see where this could be going? What his defense 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:00.520 could be here? 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:05.000 Well, at least with the way I'm interpreting that he's 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:09.200 wanting to preserve the neck as evidence that indicates that 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:14.160 the neck is demonstrating possibly cause of death ligature and 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:19.280 or manual strangulation cut throat stabbing to the neck, which, 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:25.520 considering in my assessment of Norman, he's stupid from a 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:28.800 committing crime standpoint. At this point, we don't know if 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:32.240 he's one who actually killed Elsie, but in essence to 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:36.440 scatter her body on his property, the suitcase is buried 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:40.440 on his property, her jewelry's on the property. You generally 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:43.960 don't want to do that because it just points the 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:46.800 fingers right back at you. And it doesn't sound like 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:48.800 he did really all that great of a job of 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:52.560 getting rid of this evidence in terms of hiding it. 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:57.960 But for him to claim that he's preserving Elsie's head 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:01.840 and neck because the neck is going to provide evidence. 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:05.360 That's why he's decapitating her in the way he did. 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:08.760 I'm surprised that he did that. I'm not sure how 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:10.880 it can be used as a defense just yet. So 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:13.560 I'm very interested to hear more as you go along. 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:15.760 And you know, I don't think he said that. I 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:19.880 think that Helena, the barrister, assumed that's why he was 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:22.360 doing it. But now you're going to know why. So 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:27.960 the police interrogate Norman. He does admit to dismembering Elsie. 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:31.720 He's adamant he did not murder her, and so he 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:35.960 starts to unravel this story to explain to the police 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:39.960 how all this came about. He says that on December fifth, 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:43.600 she surprised him, you know, as was probably her point. 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:46.280 She shows up at the farm a day early. He 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:48.520 had gotten her letter saying she would be there on 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.560 the sixth. She shows up on the fifth. She says, 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:54.920 we're getting married. I'm moving in with you in this 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:58.240 tiny eighty five square foot renal hut, and sort of 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:00.400 that is that I don't think that this was a 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:03.720 romantic discussion. I think this was probably kind of a 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:06.280 threatening in some way discussion like this, you know, this 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:08.280 is the way it is. I don't care about your girlfriend. 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:12.320 We are doing this because this is the situation we're in. 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:17.320 They begin arguing, and Norman said to Elsie, I'm meeting 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:19.959 this woman. I had plans to meet her and her 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:23.800 mother at the train station later today. Norman says that 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:26.840 he promised to help Elizabeth and her mom carry some 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:29.360 packages back to their house. Remember I think that they're 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:33.080 close by, And he said, you're not moving in with me. 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:37.040 I'm going this is not happening. I don't want to 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:40.360 be in a relationship with you anymore. He didn't acknowledge 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:42.600 the baby, it sounds like, at least he says that 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:45.720 he didn't. He said, I am going to go find 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:48.720 a room for you to stay in where you know 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:50.760 you don't have to go back tonight if you want. 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:52.880 But he said, you know you're not going to move 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:55.760 in with me. He says he left the hut he 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:58.920 met with Elizabeth. He said when he came back a 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:03.160 few hours later, Elsie was dead. She had hanged herself 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:07.680 in his hut using his washing line. Okay, that's why 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:11.440 the barrister believes he preserved her head and neck so 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:13.959 you could see the mark and it would back up 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:17.040 his story. He said he found her body. He panicked. 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:20.160 He thought because of their what was turning into a 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:22.920 very acrimonious situation between the two of them, that he 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:26.040 would be pegged rightly for her murder. And so instead 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:28.040 of going to get help, you know, to see if 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:31.600 she was still alive or something, he chose to dismember 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:34.920 her body with a hacksaw. He buried her remains, which 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:37.200 we know, and then he said he burned her clothing 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:40.439 in his stove. And now you can react, and now 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:41.920 we know why he did this. 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:45.360 Well, you know, it is a plausible scenario in terms 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:50.840 of the relationship and the position Norman has taken somewhat 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:54.920 with Elsie's predisposition to depression. I guess you know, at 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:57.480 least with you know, some of the concerns about her 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:01.360 mental health. But this is where it comes down to, Okay, 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:04.720 what does this neck show. Are the injuries to the 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:08.080 neck consistent with the hanging or is there something more 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:11.719 going on? And my concern is is whether or not 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:18.360 they have a reasonably competent pathologist or medical personnel who 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:20.439 can assess that accurately. 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:23.960 We do, but we don't know if he's on the 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:26.720 right side or not. So this is where we have 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.680 to figure out which way we want to go. There 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:34.720 is the finding of the corner's jury, there is the 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:39.920 corner's report, and of course the pregnancy, and then we 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:43.480 have the experts coming in and Bernard Spillsbury, who you've 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:46.040 heard of before because we've talked about him on several cases. 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:49.520 He is the most well known pathologist I believe, in 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:52.640 Great Britain history. So he ends up coming in on 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:54.200 this case. And I'm not going to tell you what 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:56.880 side he comes in on yet, but do we want 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:58.800 to go in order and just sort of see what 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.439 everybody's saying steps along the way, or do you want 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:05.760 to jump the neck doesn't come in until Spillsbury comes in. 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:09.280 I will remind you though they said advanced decomposition, even 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:11.520 though it was December, even though he put it in 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:15.120 a ten. Yeah, there's some difficulty in figuring out what 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:17.800 happened in this case. It's not clear cut. 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:19.600 Now, just go in order. 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:27.280 So Norman makes this admission, and then of course investigators 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:29.920 and the Crown prosecutors say well, we're going to have 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:32.240 to figure out what's what here, because they did know 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:36.360 about her supposed mental condition. There's all sorts of misogyny 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:40.679 happening in the media and with doctors in this time period. 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:45.040 I don't know truly what Elsie's condition was. You know, 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:47.360 this is before she was pregnant, when they were calling 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:51.040 her kind of melancholy and everything else, she could have 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:54.480 truly been, you know, really going through something. I think 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.640 that was an observation from her parents. Also, it's just 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:00.679 hard to know because of this time period, how severe, 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:04.120 how competent the doctors were, any of that kind of stuff. 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:07.360 You also just think about just her, you know, the 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:09.960 state of the relationship and where it's at. Yeah, I 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:14.000 think the average person is going to be upset, probably depressed. 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:17.880 This man that she loves is in love with another woman. 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:20.840 You know, life is going to get difficult to Elsie. 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:25.840 So just the observations of being melancholy depressed, you know, 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:29.920 I don't think that's indicative of somebody who is suicidal 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.400 or somebody who's going to strike out in a rage 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:34.559 or a violent act. 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:37.600 Absolutely, So you know, what we do know is that 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:41.240 she ended up dismembered and dead, and we're just trying 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:43.240 to figure out whether he was the cause of it 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:45.640 or whether she was the cause of it. So one 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:48.760 thing that was interesting from the book that I had 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:51.520 just written the Senners all about was, you know, this 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:53.960 was the story of a woman who was found hanging 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:56.760 just sort of like this, at least Norman claims that's 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:00.000 what happened. And the argument was that she was Sarah 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:03.880 Cornell was incredibly depressed, very upset about, you know, being pregnant, 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:07.640 and what she said was a sexual assault. And there 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:09.560 was a woman who got on the stand one of 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:11.360 the matrons. I don't think I told you this when 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:13.080 I talked to you about the book. There was a 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:16.120 woman who got on the stand in Sarah's case and 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:20.200 the prosecutor said to her, do you think Ephraim Avery 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:24.120 killed Sarah Cornell? And she was very cagy, but what 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:27.960 she said was one way or the other, he's responsible 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:31.600 for her death. So it's either he murdered her or 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:34.080 what he did to her, which she says was a 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:37.640 sexual assault and resulting in a pregnancy, resulted in her 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:39.760 taking her own life, which I thought was one of 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.720 the most interesting, you know, lines in the whole book. 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.840 One way or the other, this man is absolutely responsible 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:47.720 for her death, and I think that's what we're trying 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.520 to figure out. But this body is decomposing, you know 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:52.320 every second. 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:56.560 With Elsie's case, you could have Norman who actually did 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.760 kill her and then is trying to cover up the crime. 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:05.240 Or if the circumstances of the relationship with Norman are such, 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:08.960 you know, then you could say, yeah, indirectly, you know, 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:12.400 Norman could be thought to be responsible for Elsie taking 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:15.880 her life. But you know, from a legal standpoint, you know, 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:20.200 homicide is defined as you know, death at the hands 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:24.240 of another. Fundamentally, you know, just because you get into 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:27.600 a bad relationship doesn't make that one person responsible for 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:31.480 somebody taking their own life. So that's just an interesting thought. 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:35.240 But again, I'm wanting the details about Elsie. I want 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:38.240 to see if we can, you know, kind of really 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:39.480 figure out what happened here. 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:43.160 Well, here's the first bombshell when they do an autopsy. 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:48.680 Elsie was not pregnant, So she could have legitimately thought 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:51.640 she was and didn't know that she wasn't. Maybe she 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:54.200 had an irregular period. I don't know. That's why I'm 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:56.960 saying I'm fairly certain she didn't go to a doctor 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:01.160 who would have confirmed it. I meane, teen thirty two 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:04.400 a doctor confirmed that Sarah Cornell was pregnant, so they 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.840 would be able to confirm it. She was certainly not pregnant, 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:13.120 but of course the rumor was that she lied to 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:17.680 pressure Norman into marrying her. So what you know about Elsie? 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:21.080 I have an opinion? What's your opinion about I don't 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:23.640 know if this is victimology, but what do you think? 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:25.720 Well, I think the first thing that comes to my 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:30.720 mind is in terms of now law enforcement is investigating 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:34.280 this case, and at a certain point, Elsie is indicating 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:38.000 that she's pregnant. From Norman's perspective and maybe even from 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:43.200 the parent's perspective. You know, when did Elsie conceive? Did 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:46.440 she visit Norman three months prior? You know a Norman 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:49.800 say yeah we had sex, you know, and the parents said, yeah, 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:52.560 she was out there three months ago. Then I would expect, 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:54.800 you know, at autopsy, that they would be able to 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:58.000 even at this time frame to determine that, you know, 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:00.520 she was pregnant. But let's say she's only a couple 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:06.240 of weeks long. Right as she's mister period and advanced 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:09.720 state of decomposition, it may be tough, you know, for 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:13.200 pathologists to conclude whether she's pregnant or not. So that's 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:15.000 where I think, you know, the first part of what 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:18.720 I would drill down on with the medical side. But 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.000 most certainly you know, this is where you know, at 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:25.720 the very beginning, I could sense that this situation with Elsie, 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:30.919 Norman is feeling trapped and Elsie could be using, you know, 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:35.320 this fake pregnancy as a way to further kind of 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:39.080 capture Norman into maintaining a relationship with her. 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:42.720 For sure, one of the things investigators do when he 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:46.560 says that she had hanged herself was they start looking 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:50.320 in his hut for evidence of a hanging. So it 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:53.040 sounds like Norman had said he found her hanging from 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:56.080 the beams in the hut. I'm assuming this hut looked 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:59.280 to me like if that was the hut. Low ceilings, 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:03.119 It's seemed like though that might not be the first 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:07.120 choice for someone to use. It seems like it could 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:10.480 be difficult. Would it be unusual to find somebody from 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:13.720 a beam in a ceiling rather than like a doorknob 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:15.879 or something that's a little bit more accessible. 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:19.040 Well, you know, and I think you just you know, 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:24.119 stated that, Yeah, hangings can be accomplished from remarkably low 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:26.840 items that all you have to do. You can literally 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:30.960 be laying down on the floor and just have let's say, 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:34.640 the ligature around the neck tied to a doorknob, as 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:38.240 you mentioned, versus you know, the thing you typically see 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:40.600 on TV shows or in the movies where somebody goes 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:44.880 over a wood beam and is standing on a stool 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:47.919 and then kicks the stool away. More of you know, 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:52.320 like being you know hung, you know, in public executions. 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:57.400 So at least with cases you know that we typically see, 0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:00.760 you don't generally see the you know, the hangings where 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:04.240 somebody is hanging from something really high up. Yeah, I 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:07.840 most really haven't had a case like that. Plenty of 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:09.160 textbook examples of that. 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:14.760 Oh okay, well, this is an experiment. I always find 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:18.280 experiments interesting. This I'm sure would not be allowed in 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:20.360 a court of law, and I don't think was in 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:24.800 nineteen twenty four. So the investigators want to know whether 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:28.840 or not there's evidence in the beams, like Norman said, 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:32.560 of maybe grooves that have been kind of cut in 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:36.879 or impressions made from this washing line that she used. 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:40.119 So this is what they did. They did a little experiment. 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:45.000 They filled sacks with weights equivalent to Elsie's body weight, 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:48.480 and then they suspend these sacks from the beams using 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:51.960 this same type of washing line. They make a note 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.159 of the grooves. They must have taken photos that were 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:57.640 in the beams, and then they, of course they search 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:01.879 all the beams and they find no similar grooves in 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:04.840 the beams. That does not seem like a great experiment. 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:05.920 Am I wrong here? 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.280 Well, it's well, certainly a step to take if you're 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:13.400 looking for some evidence. You know, if Norman saying she 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:17.159 was literally suspended from this washing line and it was 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:19.879 tied around the beam, what kind of wood is it? 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:23.280 Does it compress? You think about a beam with the 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:26.399 hard corners, you know, the squared off corners, and you 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:32.000 have this weight that is focused in that wood. I 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:36.200 would expect that there would be some evidence, but maybe 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:39.639 it's more of the beam is more of like a log, 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:44.000 it's more circular. Did she just step off of a 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:46.879 chair and there's not a lot of swinging? You know, 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:50.560 maybe you're not going to see a brace of actions 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:53.560 by this washing line, and it comes down to how 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:56.960 is the washing line actually you know, secured to the beam. 0:20:57.080 --> 0:20:59.720 I mean, there's a lot of variables here. Yeah, so 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:03.720 you know, the experiment that they did is a step 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:08.040 to evalue weight, but there's probably more steps that need 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:11.680 to be thought of and looked at. But I go, 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:14.159 you know, back to the autopsy, and I know you're you're, 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:16.920 you're holding out on me with with the neck injuries, 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:20.480 because you know, what they see with the neck could 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:24.879 be pretty diagnostic in terms of whether you know, she 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:30.280 was truly hanging with full body weight or she was strangled. 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:33.679 You know. So that's where I'm kind of again, I'm 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:35.800 kind of focusing in on what I think is going 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:36.720 to answer the question. 0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:42.520 Well, just to wrap up the question about the beams, 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:45.239 Norman's defense is later going to say this is all 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:49.720 bs because you know, we weren't there to supervise the 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:53.199 experiment number one, And just like what you said, there 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:56.720 are minute details about the wage distribution, the placement of 0:21:56.760 --> 0:21:59.720 the washing line bodies are different than sacks full of 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:03.879 all of that stuff. So I think that was not 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:08.879 allowed in or dismissed, So don't worry about that too much. 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:12.840 There was a big question as they're going through their 0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:16.760 investigation about her mental health. They said, you know, assuming 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:20.480 that she was genuinely pregnant, which seems possible, would she 0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:24.520 actually take her own life and that of her unborn 0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:29.520 child's life. To be honest, don't take that seriously at all. 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:32.320 I just think people can be in a desperate situation, 0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:35.199 and I would never predict that a lot of the 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:37.400 people that I read about would have reacted the way 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:40.280 they reacted. So I think, you know, in a high 0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:43.919 pressure situation where she is feeling like she's having a 0:22:43.960 --> 0:22:47.679 mental break, nothing would surprise me. But the investigators are saying, 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:50.800 this is not really the way this woman would have reacted, 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:52.120 and I'm not so sure. 0:22:52.960 --> 0:22:57.600 You know, that's so subjective, yeah, you know, and oftentimes, 0:22:58.160 --> 0:23:03.120 you know, where there's these questions deaths, there's what's called 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:08.200 a psychological autopsy where they do dig into the deceased 0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:11.960 mental state, whether it be mental health issues, what's going 0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:15.200 on in the victim's life at the time, what prior 0:23:15.760 --> 0:23:21.400 psychological evaluations have occurred, you know, And these doctors, these 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:25.520 PhD psychiatrists, you know, they have a background of dealing 0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:28.600 with a broad group of individuals where they can kind 0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:33.960 of say, this person, the deceased is demonstrating certain behaviors 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:37.120 that would be consistent with somebody who is possibly going 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:39.679 to take their life, but you can't say it with 0:23:39.880 --> 0:23:42.520 any type of confirmation. 0:23:43.040 --> 0:23:46.160 Okay, we have to move on to stomach contents, which 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:49.199 you and I both have said, I mean varies. You 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:51.520 can tell me what you think about this. The corner 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:56.080 says that after they analyzed Elsie's stomach contents, it looks 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:59.919 like she had eaten around two hours before her death. 0:24:00.440 --> 0:24:03.000 But I know that the rate of digestion can change 0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:06.240 based on the person or the food, all of that stuff. 0:24:06.480 --> 0:24:10.199 So do you put much you know, veracity in that 0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:13.679 sort of a statement two hours is when she ate you? 0:24:13.720 --> 0:24:16.639 No, I wouldn't in terms of putting it at that 0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:20.800 specific of a figure. You know, it's more of has 0:24:20.880 --> 0:24:25.920 the stomach emptied or is there still stomach contents that 0:24:26.080 --> 0:24:29.879 are recognizable food stuffs, whether it be visibly recognizable or 0:24:29.920 --> 0:24:34.840 even microscopically recognizable. And then the pathologists can say, based 0:24:34.880 --> 0:24:38.760 on sort of the averages the last meal that the 0:24:38.840 --> 0:24:41.679 victim ate is consistent with whatever this. You know, the 0:24:41.720 --> 0:24:45.760 witness statements are saying, but in terms of trying to predict, 0:24:45.960 --> 0:24:50.440 let's say, her actual time of meal, without any other 0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:54.520 corroborating investigative evidence to suggest what time she last ate, 0:24:54.880 --> 0:24:56.880 that's really tough, especially just to say it was about 0:24:56.880 --> 0:24:57.640 two hours ago. 0:24:57.920 --> 0:25:02.440 Well, our barrister Helena Ormanton, who I respect incredibly, I 0:25:02.480 --> 0:25:06.359 think is really stretching here when I tell you what 0:25:06.400 --> 0:25:09.639 she says in a second. So Norman says they ate 0:25:10.000 --> 0:25:13.880 dinner around nine ten together, Elsie stayed for dinner even 0:25:13.920 --> 0:25:16.800 though you know they were arguing in everything, and that 0:25:16.840 --> 0:25:20.679 put Elsie's death if this is right, and we know 0:25:20.720 --> 0:25:24.120 it's probably not somewhere in ten forty to eleven ten, 0:25:24.680 --> 0:25:29.160 but that's when Norman was picking up Elizabeth and her mother. 0:25:29.440 --> 0:25:31.400 Because it was a train, it was on you know time, 0:25:31.480 --> 0:25:34.760 there was a schedule there. So it sounds like he 0:25:34.840 --> 0:25:38.160 could have been lying. This is what Helena says. If 0:25:38.320 --> 0:25:42.080 Norman killed Elsie Cameron, it must have been by inflicting 0:25:42.200 --> 0:25:46.280 upon her multiple injuries just after they ate and leaving 0:25:46.359 --> 0:25:49.800 her in a dying state so as to expire in 0:25:49.920 --> 0:25:53.520 his absence while he coolly went off to meet the 0:25:53.560 --> 0:25:56.080 other girl and behaved in a manner which seems to 0:25:56.119 --> 0:25:59.879 have aroused none of her suspicions. That seems pretty specific, 0:26:00.080 --> 0:26:03.159 especially when we're relying on something that's not particularly reliable. 0:26:03.520 --> 0:26:06.040 Yeah, you know. And then of course, the you know, 0:26:06.080 --> 0:26:10.400 the details about multiple injuries to Elsie, you know, are 0:26:10.440 --> 0:26:12.800 those present at autopsy? Even though we're dealing with a 0:26:12.840 --> 0:26:17.680 decomposed body, there could be still evidence of those injuries. 0:26:17.840 --> 0:26:22.440 So it's corroborating. It's corroborating and refuting these statements and 0:26:22.520 --> 0:26:24.159 taking a look at what the evidence says. 0:26:24.440 --> 0:26:27.200 Okay, well, let's get to what the prosecutor of the 0:26:27.240 --> 0:26:31.000 crown prosecutor ends up doing. He is ultimately arrested, of course, 0:26:31.040 --> 0:26:34.360 for her murder, and a few months later, in April, 0:26:34.480 --> 0:26:37.760 his case goes to trial, and everybody starts, you know, 0:26:37.920 --> 0:26:42.720 searching for their experts. From American sherlock Oscar Heinrich was 0:26:42.760 --> 0:26:46.240 asked to buy the prosecutor to come down for the 0:26:46.320 --> 0:26:49.520 David Lambson case, a man who was accused of murdering 0:26:49.560 --> 0:26:52.600 his wife in the bathtub. And Oscar gets down to 0:26:53.280 --> 0:26:56.879 their little cottage where this takes place, and the blood 0:26:56.920 --> 0:26:59.600 is for him in all the wrong places, and he 0:26:59.640 --> 0:27:02.440 tells prosecutor, I don't think this was murder. I think 0:27:02.440 --> 0:27:04.359 this was a slip and fall, and now I'm going 0:27:04.400 --> 0:27:08.000 to go call the defense team. So I wonder about 0:27:08.000 --> 0:27:11.600 that with experts, you know, do you feel like most 0:27:11.760 --> 0:27:16.560 experts have that sort of integrity? Oscar did not always 0:27:16.600 --> 0:27:18.399 have integrity, But do you feel like that or do 0:27:18.480 --> 0:27:20.160 you think that they are truly There are a lot 0:27:20.200 --> 0:27:22.439 of them that are truly kind of guns for hire, 0:27:22.640 --> 0:27:25.080 and they'll say whatever, you know, the prosecutor or the 0:27:25.080 --> 0:27:27.639 defense team, whoever's got the money, they will say whatever 0:27:27.680 --> 0:27:28.439 they need to say. 0:27:28.760 --> 0:27:32.119 Well, when you when you start talking about experts, you know, 0:27:32.160 --> 0:27:37.240 ethics is everything you know, and it's it's experienced, it's expertise, 0:27:37.280 --> 0:27:40.680 of course, you know, but it fundamentally does come down 0:27:40.720 --> 0:27:45.840 to ethics. And unfortunately, there are individuals out there that 0:27:45.880 --> 0:27:49.879 will tailor their opinions based on who's paying them, or 0:27:49.920 --> 0:27:52.320 if there's any other type of bias that they may have. 0:27:52.600 --> 0:27:57.040 And even sometimes ethical experts may form an opinion that's incorrect, 0:27:57.240 --> 0:28:01.359 particularly when it is a subject matter that you don't have, 0:28:01.880 --> 0:28:05.240 you know, the black and white, objective type of information 0:28:05.760 --> 0:28:07.240 to form your opinion with. 0:28:07.760 --> 0:28:11.879 Well, we'll see, we've got Bernard Spillsbury who is the 0:28:11.960 --> 0:28:15.280 greatest pathologist in the history of pathologists, at least in 0:28:15.320 --> 0:28:18.520 the UK. And he is very very well known. I 0:28:18.560 --> 0:28:20.840 believed worked on the John Reginald Christy case, the one 0:28:20.840 --> 0:28:23.240 I mentioned before, and he's popped up in several of 0:28:23.280 --> 0:28:26.040 our cases. Now, Maren has said to me, this is 0:28:26.040 --> 0:28:29.199 going to drive you crazy. She's convinced that there are 0:28:29.320 --> 0:28:34.640 autopsy photos out there of Elsie Cameron, but she wasn't 0:28:34.640 --> 0:28:36.480 able to find them, and so that of course drove 0:28:36.520 --> 0:28:39.440 me crazy. And I searched for him. I couldn't find him. 0:28:40.080 --> 0:28:43.280 So I wish we had photos because sometimes in this 0:28:43.360 --> 0:28:46.560 time period we get well documented photos. So you know, 0:28:46.640 --> 0:28:48.680 you're just going to have to go off of an 0:28:48.760 --> 0:28:54.360 incredibly well versed, well known pathologist who is going to 0:28:54.360 --> 0:28:57.640 be for this time period. We'll have the most educated 0:28:57.680 --> 0:28:59.480 information for us. We'll see. 0:28:59.640 --> 0:28:59.760 OK. 0:29:00.120 --> 0:29:03.280 So this is what he said. He looks at the 0:29:03.320 --> 0:29:06.480 throat and the way that Norman says he cut up Elsie, 0:29:07.000 --> 0:29:09.800 and he looked at it and he says she did 0:29:09.840 --> 0:29:13.719 not have rope markings on her neck. There is a 0:29:13.760 --> 0:29:17.920 mark there and it's irrefutable, he says it. Everybody says 0:29:17.960 --> 0:29:21.440 it visible to anyone who saw her remains. There's a 0:29:21.480 --> 0:29:25.360 mark there, but he thinks it was a crease or 0:29:25.400 --> 0:29:28.040 like a wrinkle, anything that you'd find on a neck 0:29:28.600 --> 0:29:33.560 of a similarly aged person. So it seems odd. I 0:29:33.640 --> 0:29:37.880 know that she's decomposing, but would he really mistake a 0:29:38.000 --> 0:29:41.880 crease for a rope you burn or what impression whatever 0:29:41.880 --> 0:29:43.400 that would have been in her neck. That seems like 0:29:43.400 --> 0:29:45.120 two very different things to me. 0:29:45.600 --> 0:29:51.080 Norman's describing what Elsie hung herself with as a washing line, 0:29:51.120 --> 0:29:54.080 So I'm I'm thinking that this is a cordage that's 0:29:54.200 --> 0:29:58.640 roughly maybe a quarter of an inch in diameter. Is 0:29:58.760 --> 0:30:01.680 do we have any information more specific than it's just 0:30:01.720 --> 0:30:02.600 a washing line. 0:30:02.880 --> 0:30:06.240 No, just a washing line. And it doesn't talk about 0:30:06.280 --> 0:30:08.560 how thick it is or thin it is. I mean 0:30:08.560 --> 0:30:09.280 it could vary. 0:30:09.560 --> 0:30:12.200 Well, this is where you know Norman's statements in terms 0:30:12.240 --> 0:30:14.680 of how he found Elsie, and it sounds like she 0:30:14.880 --> 0:30:19.080 is fully suspended from a beam using this washing line. 0:30:19.200 --> 0:30:23.160 Her entire body weight is now being focused on this 0:30:23.400 --> 0:30:28.640 very thin cordage around her neck. These lines in a 0:30:28.720 --> 0:30:33.320 true full body weight hanging, these are very significant and 0:30:33.480 --> 0:30:37.520 deep furrows that are left behind in the tissues of 0:30:37.560 --> 0:30:43.360 the neck. In addition, the structures inside the neck show damage. 0:30:43.560 --> 0:30:49.360 So if Spillsbury is looking for these furrows under this 0:30:49.600 --> 0:30:53.120 type of hanging and he's not seeing anything like that, 0:30:53.120 --> 0:30:58.600 that's hugely significant from my perspective. He's saying, there's a mark. Now, 0:30:58.680 --> 0:31:02.000 what is that mark? Is something, you know, a normal crease, 0:31:02.760 --> 0:31:06.280 a normal anatomy of the neck skin, or is it, 0:31:06.600 --> 0:31:09.680 you know, maybe an abrasion or something else that could 0:31:09.720 --> 0:31:12.920 have happened during a struggle, you know, don't know, you know, 0:31:13.040 --> 0:31:17.640 especially without the photos. But the lack of evidence of 0:31:18.320 --> 0:31:23.200 this ligature digging into Elsie's neck, I've got concerns. 0:31:23.640 --> 0:31:26.520 Yeah, and even if there were, Paul he could have 0:31:26.600 --> 0:31:28.160 done it, he could have strangled her. 0:31:28.560 --> 0:31:32.320 So let's say there's ligature strangulation. That often is you've 0:31:32.360 --> 0:31:36.880 got a different configuration in terms of how the rope 0:31:36.920 --> 0:31:40.080 goes around the neck, and there can be variants. In 0:31:40.160 --> 0:31:44.320 a hanging, a full body weight hanging, that rope is 0:31:44.360 --> 0:31:47.000 going to be up under the jaw, and if the 0:31:47.000 --> 0:31:50.000 person is like leading you kind of forward with the 0:31:50.720 --> 0:31:54.600 rope going up from behind, you'll see abrasions and everything 0:31:54.600 --> 0:31:58.520 else that show such a steep angle because the entire 0:31:58.680 --> 0:32:02.520 body weight is pulling that rope up versus strangulation. It's 0:32:02.720 --> 0:32:07.360 more parallel if you will, to the ground. If I'm 0:32:07.360 --> 0:32:10.600 going to put somebody like in a standing position, now 0:32:10.600 --> 0:32:13.320 it will vary, and you can also have it differ 0:32:13.360 --> 0:32:17.200 from side to side. But a true full body weight 0:32:17.280 --> 0:32:21.480 hanging is pretty obvious looking. That's where I'm going. Okay, 0:32:21.520 --> 0:32:27.680 how Spillsbury is, he is a very experienced pathologist, and 0:32:27.760 --> 0:32:30.560 he knows what to look for, and he's not seeing that. 0:32:30.960 --> 0:32:34.280 I'm thinking, I've got concerns about Norman telling the truth. 0:32:34.840 --> 0:32:38.440 So let me tell you about the physical evidence that 0:32:38.680 --> 0:32:42.040 Spillsbury says to him proves that she did not take 0:32:42.040 --> 0:32:44.680 her own life with hanging. And then I'll tell you 0:32:44.720 --> 0:32:48.360 what he says he sees probably happened to her. Okay, 0:32:48.400 --> 0:32:50.960 so two different things for you to react to. So 0:32:51.080 --> 0:32:53.600 here's the first thing. He said. Of course, she's in 0:32:53.640 --> 0:32:56.360 a state of decomposition, so this makes it more difficult. 0:32:56.760 --> 0:33:00.320 Buddy said that had she hanged herself, there would be 0:33:00.360 --> 0:33:05.280 bruises and blood leakage into the tissue around her neck, 0:33:05.960 --> 0:33:09.120 or he said, I would have seen signs of asphyxiation. 0:33:09.680 --> 0:33:11.760 Do those make sense to you? No? 0:33:11.960 --> 0:33:15.160 Absolutely, Okay, you know the signs of the blood and 0:33:15.200 --> 0:33:19.440 the tissues inside the neck as well as asphyxiation aspects. 0:33:19.520 --> 0:33:22.560 You know, you're cutting off the blood flow to the brain, 0:33:23.040 --> 0:33:26.320 you're increasing blood pressure initially when the heart is beating. 0:33:26.400 --> 0:33:28.360 So now you get the blood vessels in the eye 0:33:28.480 --> 0:33:31.960 starting to you know, kind of burst, These little capillaries burst, 0:33:31.960 --> 0:33:35.960 and its classic patikia, these little red dots as well 0:33:36.000 --> 0:33:40.719 as other blood vessels and capillaries in the face. And 0:33:40.760 --> 0:33:44.120 then the neck. You know, you've got this tremendous force 0:33:44.480 --> 0:33:47.880 in a full body weight hanging around the muscles inside 0:33:47.880 --> 0:33:51.600 the neck, and so you'll see bruising or that you 0:33:51.640 --> 0:33:56.240 know that noose is digging in the trachea, the larynx 0:33:56.440 --> 0:33:59.920 can be damaged. So this is where all of the 0:34:00.000 --> 0:34:03.360 this is absent. I was thinking, well, maybe there was 0:34:03.480 --> 0:34:08.040 manual strangulation or ligature strangulation. But if he's not even 0:34:08.120 --> 0:34:12.600 seeing damage to the neck nor you know, the signs 0:34:12.600 --> 0:34:17.200 of asphyxiation, then maybe this is not a strangulation either. 0:34:17.760 --> 0:34:20.440 Okay, now this is not me holding out on you, 0:34:20.480 --> 0:34:25.120 but I did want to delay Spillsbury's observations because I 0:34:25.200 --> 0:34:27.400 think he is the most reliable source here. And I 0:34:27.400 --> 0:34:29.279 think it would have been case closed if I had 0:34:29.280 --> 0:34:32.640 disclosed this earlier. So Spillsbury says, this is what I 0:34:32.680 --> 0:34:37.680 think happened. Her glasses were broken nearby, her necklace was 0:34:37.719 --> 0:34:42.600 broken nearby. He thinks that she was severely beaten and 0:34:42.760 --> 0:34:46.600 suffered a lethal head injury which resulted in her dying 0:34:46.680 --> 0:34:50.360 of shock. He says she had bruises on her ankles, 0:34:50.520 --> 0:34:56.120 her elbows, her shins, some hemorrhage inside her eyeballs, and 0:34:56.160 --> 0:35:00.120 a particularly large bruise on her head, which he he 0:35:00.200 --> 0:35:03.560 says is a crushing blow. And I was wondering if 0:35:03.600 --> 0:35:05.520 this memorment could have caused any of. 0:35:05.440 --> 0:35:08.959 This, But you know, well, I would say that Spillsbury 0:35:09.160 --> 0:35:12.319 probably can account for what he can see in the 0:35:12.360 --> 0:35:16.000 tissues based off of the dismemberment. Some of these bruises 0:35:16.040 --> 0:35:20.080 and stuff most certainly could indicate a struggle with what 0:35:20.160 --> 0:35:24.000 he is seeing internally is that there's a significant blow 0:35:24.280 --> 0:35:27.080 and is this from a weapon? Is this from her 0:35:27.120 --> 0:35:30.000 head being thrust up against the wall or down on 0:35:30.040 --> 0:35:33.120 the floor. But it sounds like he is attributing her 0:35:33.239 --> 0:35:37.640 death possibly to the head injury, and the other injuries 0:35:37.719 --> 0:35:42.560 indicate that there was a struggle between Norman and Elsie. 0:35:42.840 --> 0:35:44.240 You know, this is homicide. 0:35:44.600 --> 0:35:48.120 Yeah, that's what he says. So of course Norman's defense 0:35:48.200 --> 0:35:53.920 team disagrees. They hire three well known experts who, as 0:35:53.920 --> 0:35:57.560 you can imagine, are going to contradict everything that Spillsbury says. 0:35:58.160 --> 0:36:01.800 They say that the marks on are consistent with rope 0:36:01.840 --> 0:36:06.200 marks made by hanging, not wrinkles. They were able to 0:36:06.239 --> 0:36:11.400 see the body several weeks after Spillsbury saw the body, 0:36:11.520 --> 0:36:13.200 and the body had already been in the ground for 0:36:13.239 --> 0:36:16.000 several weeks, so you have to think that there. I 0:36:16.040 --> 0:36:18.000 don't know why they were so late to the game, 0:36:18.080 --> 0:36:20.520 but you have to think that the body had really 0:36:20.560 --> 0:36:23.440 decomposed at that point. So I don't know, aside the 0:36:23.480 --> 0:36:27.919 fact that they're contradicting, you know, this pathologist who is 0:36:28.239 --> 0:36:30.919 well known, I don't know. I guess I would think that, 0:36:31.040 --> 0:36:34.080 you know, they weren't given enough information to begin with 0:36:34.200 --> 0:36:37.520 because they were so late to the party. 0:36:37.560 --> 0:36:40.879 Here. Well, it also could just be battle of the experts. Yeah, 0:36:40.960 --> 0:36:43.160 you know, the defense. You know, over here in the 0:36:43.280 --> 0:36:46.000 United States, the defense has to put on a you know, 0:36:46.200 --> 0:36:52.920 competent trial and find find experts to contradict somebody with 0:36:53.080 --> 0:36:57.640 the reputation of Spillsbury, you know, and whether or not 0:36:57.719 --> 0:37:02.680 these other medical experts or pathology truly have any expertise, 0:37:03.000 --> 0:37:06.439 or if they do, are they altering their opinion right 0:37:06.480 --> 0:37:08.760 now at least with what you told me. They said, 0:37:08.920 --> 0:37:11.839 I mean, it sure does not add up. You know, 0:37:12.000 --> 0:37:15.200 this is again taking into you have to take this 0:37:15.680 --> 0:37:20.760 in context with Norman's statement of how he found Elsie hanging. 0:37:21.840 --> 0:37:25.360 She's not laying down on the ground from a doorknob. 0:37:25.719 --> 0:37:30.240 She is hanging from the beam, full body weight hanging. 0:37:30.640 --> 0:37:35.080 That is so informative to what kinds of injuries her 0:37:35.239 --> 0:37:39.120 neck is going to have. And Spillsbury knows that, and 0:37:39.160 --> 0:37:41.560 it would be very easy in this day and age 0:37:41.560 --> 0:37:46.160 to demonstrate that through photos of other cases, and people 0:37:46.160 --> 0:37:49.520 would see, oh yeah, that's unmistakable. 0:37:49.800 --> 0:37:52.400 Well let me just tell you for fun to you 0:37:52.440 --> 0:37:55.160 know what they said. First of all, one interesting piece 0:37:55.200 --> 0:37:58.359 of information is, you know you had asked about whether 0:37:58.440 --> 0:38:02.000 the skull was fractured. It was not. One thing that 0:38:02.239 --> 0:38:07.560 the original coroner noted about Elsie in her body was 0:38:07.680 --> 0:38:11.799 that she had particularly delicate bones, so delicate that he 0:38:11.880 --> 0:38:15.640 pointed it out in this report, which had been documented 0:38:15.760 --> 0:38:18.799 in the autopsy and they were called as thin as 0:38:18.920 --> 0:38:22.719 blotting paper. That's then one of the experts for the 0:38:22.719 --> 0:38:25.000 defense said that if Elsie had been beaten to death 0:38:25.080 --> 0:38:27.799 and suffered a forceful blow to the head, surely her 0:38:27.840 --> 0:38:30.719 skull would have been fractured. Does that make sense to you. 0:38:31.040 --> 0:38:34.319 I don't think anybody could could make that statement. Yeah, 0:38:34.560 --> 0:38:39.680 the observation of her being in anthropological terms, grascile versus robust. 0:38:40.160 --> 0:38:43.160 You could have like a very robust person right with 0:38:43.400 --> 0:38:46.840 robust structure, and you can have somebody who's grascile or 0:38:46.920 --> 0:38:51.160 more petite in their structure. And yes, there's mechanical advantages 0:38:51.520 --> 0:38:56.160 for strength purposes or resistance to forces with somebody who's 0:38:56.239 --> 0:39:01.040 more robust. However, you know the skull itself. We don't 0:39:01.120 --> 0:39:07.160 know the circumstances of how the hemorrhaging inside her brain occurred, 0:39:07.719 --> 0:39:10.719 but the fact that the skull is not crushed in 0:39:10.880 --> 0:39:13.120 tells me, well, it's not that big of a force, 0:39:13.239 --> 0:39:17.120 and it's probably a very broad surface that the skull 0:39:17.239 --> 0:39:19.600 is hitting. It's not in narrow it's not like a 0:39:19.640 --> 0:39:24.000 hammer with a very focused force that can punch through 0:39:24.000 --> 0:39:28.080 the skull. You can have a significant blow and I'll 0:39:28.160 --> 0:39:32.560 use the example of somebody taking somebody's head and thrusting 0:39:32.600 --> 0:39:36.080 it really hard onto a floor. It may not even 0:39:36.160 --> 0:39:40.200 lacerate the scalp. However, the force is internal to the 0:39:40.239 --> 0:39:45.920 skull potentially could cause hemorrhaging in the brain, subarachnoid hemorrhaging, 0:39:46.400 --> 0:39:48.400 you know. And then so that's that autopsy where they 0:39:48.440 --> 0:39:51.520 will take the calberium off, they take the brain out, 0:39:51.600 --> 0:39:54.839 and they can see the hemorrhaging inside and go, yes, 0:39:55.080 --> 0:39:58.359 definitely could be cause of death. So Spillsbury, I think 0:39:58.360 --> 0:40:02.839 a spot on seeing something to his level of expertise, 0:40:03.280 --> 0:40:07.400 to his eyes, that is significant enough to be a 0:40:07.520 --> 0:40:08.200 cause of death. 0:40:08.520 --> 0:40:11.640 Well, the doctor say he's all wrong, of course, I 0:40:11.640 --> 0:40:15.400 mean they're getting this body. Several weeks later, one of 0:40:15.440 --> 0:40:18.760 them said the marks on her neck did have blood 0:40:18.760 --> 0:40:22.640 that leaked into the surrounding tissue, so that is indicative 0:40:22.680 --> 0:40:28.240 of a hanging. That Spillsbury exaggerated the bruising on Elsie's body. 0:40:28.600 --> 0:40:31.400 He said that it might have been caused as Elsie's 0:40:31.400 --> 0:40:34.840 body fell to the floor after Norman cut the washing 0:40:34.920 --> 0:40:39.520 line that she was hanging from. The hemorrhaging in her eyeballs, 0:40:39.880 --> 0:40:43.560 he said, could in fact be produced by a hanging, 0:40:44.120 --> 0:40:46.960 So I'll pause there before we get to their theory 0:40:47.040 --> 0:40:49.600 about when she died and how she died. Does any 0:40:49.640 --> 0:40:50.760 of that stuff add. 0:40:50.600 --> 0:40:54.759 Up for me to differentiate Spillsbury and what he is 0:40:54.840 --> 0:40:58.080 concluding versus these doctors, I'd have to see the photos, 0:40:58.440 --> 0:41:00.440 you know, and maybe even take those foot photos to 0:41:00.480 --> 0:41:04.120 a pathologist that I trust. If it's outside of my 0:41:04.280 --> 0:41:09.000 experience and expertise. You know, this is where now it's 0:41:09.040 --> 0:41:12.680 so hard to differentiate that kind of detail. You know, 0:41:12.760 --> 0:41:18.359 It's just Spillsbury is a very experienced and competent pathologist. 0:41:18.719 --> 0:41:20.759 I don't know the background of these other doctors. Are 0:41:20.760 --> 0:41:22.040 they even pathologists? 0:41:22.400 --> 0:41:26.200 They are, they're professional pathologists who have testified, you know, 0:41:26.280 --> 0:41:29.000 But again, even if they are being honest here, they're 0:41:29.040 --> 0:41:31.840 getting the body so many weeks later she to be exhumed, 0:41:32.080 --> 0:41:34.040 you know, her body was not being held in some 0:41:34.080 --> 0:41:34.880 secure area. 0:41:35.320 --> 0:41:40.040 And also recognize, you know, right after she's recovered, technically 0:41:40.080 --> 0:41:43.000 there should have been an autopsy done. Then you pull 0:41:43.040 --> 0:41:47.880 in this noted pathologist who's now doing his own assessment 0:41:47.920 --> 0:41:49.920 of the body, and we don't know exactly to what 0:41:50.040 --> 0:41:54.200 extent he is altering the body, And then the body 0:41:54.239 --> 0:41:56.880 goes into the ground, you know, and what kind of 0:41:56.920 --> 0:42:00.319 process did the body undergo? You know, it's dismember They're 0:42:00.320 --> 0:42:04.200 not going to embalm this body. How were these body 0:42:04.239 --> 0:42:08.400 parts handled before they were dug up? Yeah, so, you know, 0:42:08.440 --> 0:42:11.560 I think to your point, you know, you're recognizing, Yes, 0:42:11.680 --> 0:42:17.319 the defense experts are having a worse starting point, you know, 0:42:17.400 --> 0:42:20.320 in terms of what they might be able to see 0:42:20.680 --> 0:42:21.800 so many weeks later. 0:42:22.000 --> 0:42:26.000 You know, they have to explain why there weren't clearer 0:42:26.080 --> 0:42:29.719 signs of damage to her neck and bringing lungs and 0:42:29.760 --> 0:42:32.280 all of that, you know, everything that Spillsbury's saying should 0:42:32.280 --> 0:42:34.680 be there with a hanging that isn't there. So this 0:42:34.840 --> 0:42:38.360 is what they say happened the defense. Instead of this 0:42:38.560 --> 0:42:42.279 being a simple hanging where she, you know, her neck 0:42:42.320 --> 0:42:45.719 breaks or she dies quickly, what they think happened was 0:42:45.760 --> 0:42:48.840 she was only partially suffocated. By the time she was 0:42:48.880 --> 0:42:52.840 found by Norman. He cut her down, she was not dead, 0:42:53.000 --> 0:42:55.600 she was unconscious. He did not know he thought she 0:42:55.760 --> 0:42:58.840 was dead, And they think she might have been alive 0:42:58.920 --> 0:43:01.759 for several more minutes and then died of shock, which 0:43:01.800 --> 0:43:04.400 is the only thing that they agree with Spillsbury on. 0:43:04.440 --> 0:43:06.319 I mean, Spillsbury thought he hit her in the back 0:43:06.360 --> 0:43:07.840 of the head and she died of shock. 0:43:08.360 --> 0:43:11.240 I mean, it's a possibility, you know, but that's where 0:43:11.320 --> 0:43:13.719 you know, how long was he gone? You know, when 0:43:13.760 --> 0:43:16.520 did she hang herself relative to when he came in 0:43:16.560 --> 0:43:21.040 the door. I just go back to what I feel 0:43:21.160 --> 0:43:26.080 is the most objective evidence that contradicts Norman's statement about 0:43:26.080 --> 0:43:29.760 what happened, and that has to do with the Spillsbury's 0:43:29.800 --> 0:43:33.280 observation of the lack of a rope furrow, a lack 0:43:33.400 --> 0:43:35.360 to the damage to the next structures, a lack of 0:43:35.400 --> 0:43:38.400 hemorrhaging to the strap muscles, you know, or any of 0:43:38.400 --> 0:43:42.000 the other next structures, and these other pathologists are trying 0:43:42.040 --> 0:43:46.000 to suggest that some of these other minor injuries to 0:43:46.160 --> 0:43:50.640 the neck area are consistent with a full body weight hanging. 0:43:50.760 --> 0:43:53.160 I put so much more veracity on what I'm hearing 0:43:53.160 --> 0:43:56.360 from Spillsbury than these other doctors. And it has nothing 0:43:56.400 --> 0:43:59.440 to do with Spillsbury's reputation. I just know what he 0:43:59.480 --> 0:44:01.440 would be looking looking for and he's not seeing it. 0:44:01.600 --> 0:44:04.520 And I'm going, Okay, she wasn't hanging the way Norman 0:44:04.560 --> 0:44:07.440 says she was hanging. Mm, whether she's alive or not. 0:44:07.480 --> 0:44:10.680 When he cuts her down. I mean that becomes trivial 0:44:10.880 --> 0:44:12.640 yet O, because I don't think he's cutting her down. 0:44:12.920 --> 0:44:16.359 Yeah. So with thank goodness, we're moving finally off of 0:44:16.400 --> 0:44:21.000 the medical stuff. Norman takes the stand idiot and he 0:44:21.239 --> 0:44:24.680 taught I mean, this guy, he talks about his romances 0:44:24.719 --> 0:44:28.359 with both Elsie and Elizabeth, and he's definitely not doing 0:44:28.400 --> 0:44:32.319 himself any favors. At one point, when he's asked which 0:44:32.360 --> 0:44:36.080 woman he likes more, he says, I do not know. 0:44:36.120 --> 0:44:40.200 I was particularly desirous of marrying any at the time 0:44:40.560 --> 0:44:43.359 of the two. I suppose I thought more of the 0:44:43.400 --> 0:44:47.000 other girl, which is Elizabeth. And then Maren has a 0:44:47.280 --> 0:44:49.560 cheeky little note in here. She said, of course, it's 0:44:49.600 --> 0:44:51.680 not exactly heartwarming thing to hear from the lips of 0:44:51.680 --> 0:44:54.840 a man who had already severed one of the women's heads. 0:44:55.480 --> 0:44:58.799 So this is all to say, you know, even with 0:44:58.920 --> 0:45:03.320 the best argument from the pathologists that he hired, Norman 0:45:03.560 --> 0:45:06.160 is not looking very good. I don't think things are 0:45:06.160 --> 0:45:07.760 going well for him with this trial. 0:45:08.200 --> 0:45:11.279 No, you know, and they're hearing directly from him. You 0:45:11.320 --> 0:45:14.440 know that he was partial to this other woman, Yeah, 0:45:14.560 --> 0:45:17.120 you know, and we just know in these lovers triangles, 0:45:17.239 --> 0:45:21.759 you know, jealousy and rage often went out, you know, 0:45:21.920 --> 0:45:26.560 and this is where Elsie was putting demands on Norman 0:45:26.640 --> 0:45:29.640 that was going to impact his ability to continue having 0:45:29.680 --> 0:45:33.239 a relationship with Elizabeth. I mean, we don't need to 0:45:33.280 --> 0:45:36.680 have motive in cases, but right there the jury is 0:45:36.719 --> 0:45:38.920 hearing directly from Norman. He has motive. 0:45:39.280 --> 0:45:43.120 Yeah, absolutely, So A couple of interesting notes, you know, 0:45:43.200 --> 0:45:47.600 before we get to the verdict. One is that judge. 0:45:47.800 --> 0:45:50.600 I mean, this was classic in the UK and I 0:45:50.640 --> 0:45:53.239 don't know in this time period if the judges did this, 0:45:53.680 --> 0:45:59.040 but the judge says to the jury upon giving jury instructions, 0:45:59.480 --> 0:46:03.320 he says that Spillsbury's insight is quote the very best 0:46:03.360 --> 0:46:08.040 opinion that can be obtained. I mean, how is that? Okay, 0:46:08.239 --> 0:46:12.240 I probably agree with him, But these were similar instructions 0:46:12.480 --> 0:46:15.640 that the judge in John Reginald Christie's case in nineteen 0:46:15.719 --> 0:46:19.560 fifty three gave very biased, sort of like here's your verdict. 0:46:19.600 --> 0:46:21.359 I mean, this is who you should be listening to. 0:46:21.960 --> 0:46:26.120 It's definitely biasing the jury. Yeah, you know, the jury 0:46:26.200 --> 0:46:29.840 is there to evaluate each of these experts and the 0:46:29.960 --> 0:46:34.799 veracity of each of their experts per their observations. For 0:46:34.880 --> 0:46:37.760 the judge to come out and do that. Obviously, I'm 0:46:37.840 --> 0:46:42.160 agreeing with what I'm hearing of Spillsbury's opinions, but completely 0:46:42.200 --> 0:46:44.520 inappropriate instructions to the jury. 0:46:44.760 --> 0:46:47.319 Yeah, absolutely, and grounds for an appeal. I would have 0:46:47.360 --> 0:46:50.960 thought the jury hands down a verdict and it's probably 0:46:51.000 --> 0:46:54.480 no surprise that it's guilty and he is sentenced to death, 0:46:55.000 --> 0:46:57.520 which you know, of course there is I will say 0:46:57.800 --> 0:47:00.120 a little bit of a ruckus over whether or not 0:47:00.120 --> 0:47:03.520 not the death penalty was appropriate in this case because 0:47:04.200 --> 0:47:07.279 some people interpreted some reasonable doubt based on these three 0:47:07.320 --> 0:47:11.280 pathologists who took the stand on behalf of Norman, Arthur 0:47:11.320 --> 0:47:14.480 Conan Doyle. You know, Sherlock Holmes, author was one of 0:47:14.520 --> 0:47:18.799 the people who said this should not be an execution case. This, 0:47:18.960 --> 0:47:20.680 you know, we need to look at the evidence. And 0:47:20.920 --> 0:47:24.480 he was not saying Norman is not guilty. He was saying, 0:47:24.600 --> 0:47:28.080 I don't think there's enough evidence to warrant this being 0:47:28.120 --> 0:47:32.200 a capital case. So the public got involved. It did 0:47:32.239 --> 0:47:35.920 not help Norman at all, and he was hanged in 0:47:35.960 --> 0:47:38.960 April of nineteen twenty five at the age of twenty five. 0:47:39.640 --> 0:47:42.759 He told his father in the last letter two days 0:47:42.800 --> 0:47:47.040 before he's executed. He writes to his dad and he said, quote, 0:47:47.280 --> 0:47:53.080 never mind, Dad, don't worry. I am a martyr to spillsburyism. 0:47:53.440 --> 0:47:56.520 The interpretation is that, you know, Spillsbury is a man 0:47:56.560 --> 0:47:59.120 who so many people respect. If he says you're guilty, 0:47:59.120 --> 0:48:01.960 you're guilty, regardless of if you are guilty or not. 0:48:02.080 --> 0:48:03.759 Of course I don't think you and I believe that. 0:48:03.920 --> 0:48:07.200 But that was his statement, was that, you know, obviously 0:48:07.320 --> 0:48:10.680 he's blaming this pathologist for all of his woes. 0:48:11.120 --> 0:48:13.960 Well, I mean he's sitting there in court and he's 0:48:14.280 --> 0:48:18.840 hearing Spillsbury, you know, testify. I got to think Norman 0:48:19.520 --> 0:48:22.600 didn't know, you know, what kind of evidence would be 0:48:22.680 --> 0:48:27.080 present if Elsie had hung herself. It's a from my perspective, 0:48:27.120 --> 0:48:30.279 it's an obvious homicide. I think whether it's a death 0:48:30.320 --> 0:48:32.880 eligible case, I think I don't know what the laws 0:48:32.920 --> 0:48:36.240 of England are in terms of differentiating a death sentence 0:48:36.360 --> 0:48:40.000 from let's say life without the possibility of being paroled. Right, 0:48:40.239 --> 0:48:44.520 But you know, most certainly he's responsible, probably killed her 0:48:44.880 --> 0:48:48.600 that evening and try to cover it up by dismembering 0:48:48.600 --> 0:48:52.799 her body, getting rid of the evidence, sending letters back 0:48:52.800 --> 0:48:56.440 to the parents' house, you know, just to stage the scene. 0:48:56.760 --> 0:49:02.399 Everything is pointing strong at Norman and his I would say, 0:49:02.560 --> 0:49:07.520 naive and ignorant perspective on what these crimes look like. 0:49:08.000 --> 0:49:11.800 He came up with a scenario that he didn't realize 0:49:11.800 --> 0:49:15.399 that pathologist would be able to differentiate what's going on. 0:49:15.840 --> 0:49:16.600 He got caught. 0:49:17.120 --> 0:49:19.560 You know, I was thinking, Paul is all of this 0:49:19.680 --> 0:49:24.680 started with her saying, I'm pregnant, and now you're going 0:49:24.760 --> 0:49:27.080 to have to step up and be a man and 0:49:27.120 --> 0:49:29.960 marry me. And if she really believed she was pregnant, 0:49:30.560 --> 0:49:33.520 then you know, rightly so, and especially in this time period. 0:49:34.000 --> 0:49:38.040 I wonder what Norman's reaction was when he found out 0:49:38.280 --> 0:49:41.480 that she actually wasn't pregnant. I don't know if he 0:49:41.560 --> 0:49:43.239 would have killed her. I think he would have said, 0:49:43.280 --> 0:49:46.000 bug off, I'm breaking up with you, like many men did. 0:49:46.120 --> 0:49:48.120 I'm leaving you and that's it. But I think it 0:49:48.200 --> 0:49:52.440 was the pregnancy thing, the being trapped thing, that triggered this. 0:49:52.719 --> 0:49:54.799 I could be wrong. He could have murdered many other 0:49:54.840 --> 0:49:56.160 people after this. I don't know. 0:49:56.640 --> 0:49:59.839 It does come down to, you know, kind of evaluate 0:50:00.200 --> 0:50:03.480 the violence he inflicted on Elsie, whether or not he 0:50:03.560 --> 0:50:07.319 felt trapped. It doesn't matter if Elsie's lying or not 0:50:07.440 --> 0:50:11.000 about her pregnancy. You know, he acts out in a 0:50:11.040 --> 0:50:17.000 way that kills Elsie, and that just demonstrates a certain 0:50:17.200 --> 0:50:22.680 type of criminal behavior that somebody down the road may 0:50:22.719 --> 0:50:27.040 be confronted with Norman's rage. They got the right guy, 0:50:27.400 --> 0:50:30.360 came with the right verdict. Now, whether or not he 0:50:30.400 --> 0:50:33.720 should have been executed, you know, I really can't say 0:50:33.960 --> 0:50:36.440 or weigh in on that. It's just I'm not shedding 0:50:36.440 --> 0:50:38.560 a tear for Norman to be frank No. 0:50:38.960 --> 0:50:41.360 I mean, the UK doesn't have the death penalty in 0:50:41.440 --> 0:50:45.000 a longer. But I do think that this is always 0:50:45.000 --> 0:50:48.000 a reminder, and I've said this with listeners all about too. 0:50:48.280 --> 0:50:53.200 There are Elsie Cameron's and Sarah Cornell's before them, and 0:50:53.280 --> 0:50:56.880 there are them that are going to happen tomorrow because 0:50:56.880 --> 0:51:00.319 of the vulnerability of women when they are pregnant and 0:51:00.680 --> 0:51:04.520 just the fear that comes up. And so you know, 0:51:04.600 --> 0:51:07.080 this is why I think cases like this are really important, 0:51:07.640 --> 0:51:09.160 and this is why we're not going to do a 0:51:09.160 --> 0:51:11.200 story like this next week. I need a break from 0:51:11.440 --> 0:51:14.960 I really felt I needed a break after Sarah Cornell's 0:51:15.000 --> 0:51:17.600 case for that book. But I feel like we keep 0:51:17.640 --> 0:51:20.960 doing these stories and there's like, I hope people finally 0:51:21.000 --> 0:51:24.200 get it that women are really vulnerable when they're pregnant. 0:51:24.640 --> 0:51:27.960 Sure, no, no question about it. So I'm looking forward 0:51:28.120 --> 0:51:31.040 to the different type of case you're going to bring 0:51:31.080 --> 0:51:31.800 me next week. 0:51:32.280 --> 0:51:33.480 Yes, sir, I'll see you then. 0:51:34.040 --> 0:51:34.640 Sounds good. 0:51:34.680 --> 0:51:42.480 Thanks Kate. This has been an exactly right production for 0:51:42.560 --> 0:51:45.640 our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot 0:51:45.640 --> 0:51:50.360 com slash Buried Bones Sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi. 0:51:50.680 --> 0:51:54.920 Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson. 0:51:55.200 --> 0:51:57.440 Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday. 0:51:57.760 --> 0:51:59.960 Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 0:52:00.280 --> 0:52:02.320 Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 0:52:02.600 --> 0:52:06.720 Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer. 0:52:07.000 --> 0:52:10.359 You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 0:52:10.480 --> 0:52:11.640 Buried Bones Pod. 0:52:12.080 --> 0:52:14.640 Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded 0:52:14.640 --> 0:52:16.680 Age story of murder and the race to decode the 0:52:16.680 --> 0:52:19.040 criminal mind, is available now, and. 0:52:19.000 --> 0:52:23.319 Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold 0:52:23.360 --> 0:52:25.160 Cases is also available now. 0:52:25.480 --> 0:52:29.200 Listen to buried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:52:29.280 --> 0:52:31.200 or wherever you get your podcasts.