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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. I'm ready to get into this case again.

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Speaker 1: This missing woman who goes to find her fiance on

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Speaker 1: his chicken farm and then vanishes and her parents are

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Speaker 1: so upset about it. And then we make some pretty

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Speaker 1: big discoveries. And I know I left you hanging on

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Speaker 1: this case the last time, and we know that things

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Speaker 1: have gone very badly for Elsie.

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Speaker 2: Well, I would say so, I mean, considering she's dismembered

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Speaker 2: and scattered around Norman's potato farm and chicken coop areas,

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Speaker 2: so it's not a good place to be.

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Speaker 1: I want to give a little trigger warning. We have

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Speaker 1: some talk of suicide in this half of the episode,

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Speaker 1: so I just want everybody to know that we will

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Speaker 1: be talking about someone taking their own life. So we're

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Speaker 1: in England nineteen twenty four. There's a young woman you know,

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Speaker 1: named Elsie Cameron. She's engaged to a guy named Norman

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Speaker 1: Thorne who who has a chicken farm outside of London.

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Speaker 1: She lives in London there, as I said, engaged, but

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Speaker 1: he is creating some distance and after a few years

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Speaker 1: of dating and then they become engaged, maybe about a

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Speaker 1: year earlier. She says I'm pregnant. He says I'm in

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Speaker 1: love with someone else, and she says, I'm coming up

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Speaker 1: on December sixth. We know she shows up on December

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Speaker 1: fifth instead, and then her parents don't hear from her,

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Speaker 1: and it's total devastation I'm assuming from her parents when

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Speaker 1: the police do a search of his chicken farm and

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Speaker 1: they see some freshly dug dirt and they dig and

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Speaker 1: they find several key pieces of evidence, so her jewelry

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Speaker 1: a suitcase, and then of course they come up with

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Speaker 1: a human torso, which we were assuming is going to

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Speaker 1: be Elsie's. So Norman, when approached by the police, says, okay,

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Speaker 1: let me tell you what happened. First, I'll show you

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Speaker 1: where the rest of her body parts are fine, And

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Speaker 1: they find her legs, in her head and essentially enough

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Speaker 1: information to give them some idea of what happened. So

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Speaker 1: I think my big question was why would Norman do this?

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Speaker 1: I know that he's caught with a human torso on

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Speaker 1: his property. He's not admitting to murder. He is saying

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Speaker 1: I dismembered her. So then the big question is what

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Speaker 1: is Norman going to say happen to Elsie? Where he

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Speaker 1: is so willing to turn over all of this information

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Speaker 1: to the police and let them search wherever they want

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Speaker 1: on his chicken farm when he had denied even seeing

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Speaker 1: her before.

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Speaker 2: Sure, well, obviously he's caught in a lie, you know.

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Speaker 2: So now he's the evidence has been found, Elsie has

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Speaker 2: been found, and he's offering up information, you know. And

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Speaker 2: of course is he minimizing during you know, this stage

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Speaker 2: of confessing, there's always that possibility he may admit to

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Speaker 2: select acts that he think are relatively minor and try

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Speaker 2: to point the finger at somebody else who's actually the

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Speaker 2: one responsible for the homicide. Now, I think, did you

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Speaker 2: say that he admitted to the dismemberment.

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Speaker 1: He will admit to the dismemberment.

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Speaker 2: Yes, got it, But he's pointing the finger somewhere else

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Speaker 2: for the actual homicide.

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Speaker 1: Sounds like it. So I'll tell you what Helena Normanton,

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Speaker 1: the barrister, says, because she was really heavily involved in

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Speaker 1: observing this case with this you know, kind of ilegal

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Speaker 1: eye on it. So Helena says that Norman had severed

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Speaker 1: the head halfway up the back of the neck, but

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Speaker 1: low down by the breastbone in front. Yeah, what is

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Speaker 1: that exactly? Because then they found the torso, and I

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Speaker 1: guess I assumed sort of, I don't know, maybe I

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Speaker 1: don't know the boundaries of what's considered a torso versus

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Speaker 1: a decapitation, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, at least the way that Helena is describing that,

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Speaker 2: And I'm not sure it's indicating the direction that you know,

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Speaker 2: the cutting occurred, but she's describing that you have a

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Speaker 2: c that's halfway up the back part of the neck

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Speaker 2: and then it's angled downward to the front to where

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Speaker 2: your breastbone. This is your sternum. So for whatever reason,

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Speaker 2: this decapitation took that path to remove Elsie's head. Now,

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Speaker 2: typically a torso is usually just the upper body the

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Speaker 2: rib cage down to the pelvis, and that the extremities

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Speaker 2: have been removed, so the arms, the legs, and the

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Speaker 2: head have been removed. That's usually how a torso is defined.

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Speaker 2: And oftentimes you'll see where a torso is further dissected

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Speaker 2: into an upper and lower part.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so at least we have information because we have

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Speaker 1: these body parts. Like I remember reading how all pieces

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Speaker 1: of the body would be valuable, but a torso would

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Speaker 1: be value vulnerable organs, we will know if she was

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Speaker 1: actually pregnant. Is that right? Is that what we can

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Speaker 1: assume here with.

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Speaker 2: The torso very possibly know with such a large part

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Speaker 2: of the body. Oftentimes the injuries that cause death are

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Speaker 2: present within the torso area, like a stabbing to the

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Speaker 2: heart or a gunshot wound, but not necessarily and with

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Speaker 2: Elsie's case, yes, it provided that the reproductive organs are

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Speaker 2: still present, that they would be able to determine if

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Speaker 2: she had been pregnant.

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Speaker 1: What Helena says, which is interesting, is that he had

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Speaker 1: put her head in a tin, and she believed it was.

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Speaker 1: And I think the prosecutors eventually will say that he

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Speaker 1: put her head in a tin to prevent its quick

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Speaker 1: decomposition as part of evidence, because the way he severed

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Speaker 1: her head preserved the neck. So the prosecutors believe that

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Speaker 1: he put this head in the tin so that they

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Speaker 1: will be able to clearly see her neck. Okay, do

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Speaker 1: you see where this could be going? What his defense

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Speaker 1: could be here?

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Speaker 2: Well, at least with the way I'm interpreting that he's

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Speaker 2: wanting to preserve the neck as evidence that indicates that

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Speaker 2: the neck is demonstrating possibly cause of death ligature and

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Speaker 2: or manual strangulation cut throat stabbing to the neck, which,

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Speaker 2: considering in my assessment of Norman, he's stupid from a

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Speaker 2: committing crime standpoint. At this point, we don't know if

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Speaker 2: he's one who actually killed Elsie, but in essence to

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Speaker 2: scatter her body on his property, the suitcase is buried

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Speaker 2: on his property, her jewelry's on the property. You generally

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Speaker 2: don't want to do that because it just points the

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Speaker 2: fingers right back at you. And it doesn't sound like

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Speaker 2: he did really all that great of a job of

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Speaker 2: getting rid of this evidence in terms of hiding it.

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Speaker 2: But for him to claim that he's preserving Elsie's head

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Speaker 2: and neck because the neck is going to provide evidence.

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Speaker 2: That's why he's decapitating her in the way he did.

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Speaker 2: I'm surprised that he did that. I'm not sure how

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Speaker 2: it can be used as a defense just yet. So

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Speaker 2: I'm very interested to hear more as you go along.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I don't think he said that. I

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Speaker 1: think that Helena, the barrister, assumed that's why he was

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Speaker 1: doing it. But now you're going to know why. So

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Speaker 1: the police interrogate Norman. He does admit to dismembering Elsie.

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Speaker 1: He's adamant he did not murder her, and so he

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Speaker 1: starts to unravel this story to explain to the police

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Speaker 1: how all this came about. He says that on December fifth,

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Speaker 1: she surprised him, you know, as was probably her point.

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Speaker 1: She shows up at the farm a day early. He

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Speaker 1: had gotten her letter saying she would be there on

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Speaker 1: the sixth. She shows up on the fifth. She says,

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Speaker 1: we're getting married. I'm moving in with you in this

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Speaker 1: tiny eighty five square foot renal hut, and sort of

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Speaker 1: that is that I don't think that this was a

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Speaker 1: romantic discussion. I think this was probably kind of a

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Speaker 1: threatening in some way discussion like this, you know, this

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Speaker 1: is the way it is. I don't care about your girlfriend.

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Speaker 1: We are doing this because this is the situation we're in.

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Speaker 1: They begin arguing, and Norman said to Elsie, I'm meeting

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Speaker 1: this woman. I had plans to meet her and her

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Speaker 1: mother at the train station later today. Norman says that

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Speaker 1: he promised to help Elizabeth and her mom carry some

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Speaker 1: packages back to their house. Remember I think that they're

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Speaker 1: close by, And he said, you're not moving in with me.

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Speaker 1: I'm going this is not happening. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: be in a relationship with you anymore. He didn't acknowledge

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Speaker 1: the baby, it sounds like, at least he says that

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Speaker 1: he didn't. He said, I am going to go find

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Speaker 1: a room for you to stay in where you know

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Speaker 1: you don't have to go back tonight if you want.

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Speaker 1: But he said, you know you're not going to move

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Speaker 1: in with me. He says he left the hut he

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Speaker 1: met with Elizabeth. He said when he came back a

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Speaker 1: few hours later, Elsie was dead. She had hanged herself

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Speaker 1: in his hut using his washing line. Okay, that's why

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Speaker 1: the barrister believes he preserved her head and neck so

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Speaker 1: you could see the mark and it would back up

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Speaker 1: his story. He said he found her body. He panicked.

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Speaker 1: He thought because of their what was turning into a

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Speaker 1: very acrimonious situation between the two of them, that he

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Speaker 1: would be pegged rightly for her murder. And so instead

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Speaker 1: of going to get help, you know, to see if

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Speaker 1: she was still alive or something, he chose to dismember

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Speaker 1: her body with a hacksaw. He buried her remains, which

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Speaker 1: we know, and then he said he burned her clothing

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Speaker 1: in his stove. And now you can react, and now

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Speaker 1: we know why he did this.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, it is a plausible scenario in terms

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Speaker 2: of the relationship and the position Norman has taken somewhat

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Speaker 2: with Elsie's predisposition to depression. I guess you know, at

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Speaker 2: least with you know, some of the concerns about her

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Speaker 2: mental health. But this is where it comes down to, Okay,

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Speaker 2: what does this neck show. Are the injuries to the

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Speaker 2: neck consistent with the hanging or is there something more

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Speaker 2: going on? And my concern is is whether or not

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Speaker 2: they have a reasonably competent pathologist or medical personnel who

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Speaker 2: can assess that accurately.

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Speaker 1: We do, but we don't know if he's on the

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Speaker 1: right side or not. So this is where we have

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Speaker 1: to figure out which way we want to go. There

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Speaker 1: is the finding of the corner's jury, there is the

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Speaker 1: corner's report, and of course the pregnancy, and then we

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Speaker 1: have the experts coming in and Bernard Spillsbury, who you've

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Speaker 1: heard of before because we've talked about him on several cases.

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Speaker 1: He is the most well known pathologist I believe, in

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Speaker 1: Great Britain history. So he ends up coming in on

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Speaker 1: this case. And I'm not going to tell you what

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Speaker 1: side he comes in on yet, but do we want

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Speaker 1: to go in order and just sort of see what

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Speaker 1: everybody's saying steps along the way, or do you want

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Speaker 1: to jump the neck doesn't come in until Spillsbury comes in.

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Speaker 1: I will remind you though they said advanced decomposition, even

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Speaker 1: though it was December, even though he put it in

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Speaker 1: a ten. Yeah, there's some difficulty in figuring out what

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Speaker 1: happened in this case. It's not clear cut.

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Speaker 2: Now, just go in order.

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Speaker 1: So Norman makes this admission, and then of course investigators

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Speaker 1: and the Crown prosecutors say well, we're going to have

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Speaker 1: to figure out what's what here, because they did know

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Speaker 1: about her supposed mental condition. There's all sorts of misogyny

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Speaker 1: happening in the media and with doctors in this time period.

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Speaker 1: I don't know truly what Elsie's condition was. You know,

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Speaker 1: this is before she was pregnant, when they were calling

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Speaker 1: her kind of melancholy and everything else, she could have

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Speaker 1: truly been, you know, really going through something. I think

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Speaker 1: that was an observation from her parents. Also, it's just

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Speaker 1: hard to know because of this time period, how severe,

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Speaker 1: how competent the doctors were, any of that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: You also just think about just her, you know, the

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Speaker 2: state of the relationship and where it's at. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think the average person is going to be upset, probably depressed.

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Speaker 2: This man that she loves is in love with another woman.

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Speaker 2: You know, life is going to get difficult to Elsie.

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Speaker 2: So just the observations of being melancholy depressed, you know,

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's indicative of somebody who is suicidal

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Speaker 2: or somebody who's going to strike out in a rage

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Speaker 2: or a violent act.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, So you know, what we do know is that

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Speaker 1: she ended up dismembered and dead, and we're just trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out whether he was the cause of it

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Speaker 1: or whether she was the cause of it. So one

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Speaker 1: thing that was interesting from the book that I had

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Speaker 1: just written the Senners all about was, you know, this

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Speaker 1: was the story of a woman who was found hanging

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Speaker 1: just sort of like this, at least Norman claims that's

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Speaker 1: what happened. And the argument was that she was Sarah

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Speaker 1: Cornell was incredibly depressed, very upset about, you know, being pregnant,

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Speaker 1: and what she said was a sexual assault. And there

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Speaker 1: was a woman who got on the stand one of

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Speaker 1: the matrons. I don't think I told you this when

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Speaker 1: I talked to you about the book. There was a

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Speaker 1: woman who got on the stand in Sarah's case and

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Speaker 1: the prosecutor said to her, do you think Ephraim Avery

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Speaker 1: killed Sarah Cornell? And she was very cagy, but what

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Speaker 1: she said was one way or the other, he's responsible

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Speaker 1: for her death. So it's either he murdered her or

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Speaker 1: what he did to her, which she says was a

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Speaker 1: sexual assault and resulting in a pregnancy, resulted in her

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Speaker 1: taking her own life, which I thought was one of

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Speaker 1: the most interesting, you know, lines in the whole book.

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Speaker 1: One way or the other, this man is absolutely responsible

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Speaker 1: for her death, and I think that's what we're trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out. But this body is decomposing, you know

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Speaker 1: every second.

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Speaker 2: With Elsie's case, you could have Norman who actually did

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Speaker 2: kill her and then is trying to cover up the crime.

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Speaker 2: Or if the circumstances of the relationship with Norman are such,

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Speaker 2: you know, then you could say, yeah, indirectly, you know,

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Speaker 2: Norman could be thought to be responsible for Elsie taking

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Speaker 2: her life. But you know, from a legal standpoint, you know,

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Speaker 2: homicide is defined as you know, death at the hands

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Speaker 2: of another. Fundamentally, you know, just because you get into

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Speaker 2: a bad relationship doesn't make that one person responsible for

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Speaker 2: somebody taking their own life. So that's just an interesting thought.

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Speaker 2: But again, I'm wanting the details about Elsie. I want

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Speaker 2: to see if we can, you know, kind of really

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Speaker 2: figure out what happened here.

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Speaker 1: Well, here's the first bombshell when they do an autopsy.

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Speaker 1: Elsie was not pregnant, So she could have legitimately thought

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Speaker 1: she was and didn't know that she wasn't. Maybe she

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Speaker 1: had an irregular period. I don't know. That's why I'm

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Speaker 1: saying I'm fairly certain she didn't go to a doctor

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Speaker 1: who would have confirmed it. I meane, teen thirty two

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Speaker 1: a doctor confirmed that Sarah Cornell was pregnant, so they

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Speaker 1: would be able to confirm it. She was certainly not pregnant,

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Speaker 1: but of course the rumor was that she lied to

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Speaker 1: pressure Norman into marrying her. So what you know about Elsie?

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Speaker 1: I have an opinion? What's your opinion about I don't

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Speaker 1: know if this is victimology, but what do you think?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think the first thing that comes to my

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Speaker 2: mind is in terms of now law enforcement is investigating

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Speaker 2: this case, and at a certain point, Elsie is indicating

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Speaker 2: that she's pregnant. From Norman's perspective and maybe even from

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Speaker 2: the parent's perspective. You know, when did Elsie conceive? Did

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Speaker 2: she visit Norman three months prior? You know a Norman

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Speaker 2: say yeah we had sex, you know, and the parents said, yeah,

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Speaker 2: she was out there three months ago. Then I would expect,

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Speaker 2: you know, at autopsy, that they would be able to

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Speaker 2: even at this time frame to determine that, you know,

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Speaker 2: she was pregnant. But let's say she's only a couple

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Speaker 2: of weeks long. Right as she's mister period and advanced

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Speaker 2: state of decomposition, it may be tough, you know, for

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Speaker 2: pathologists to conclude whether she's pregnant or not. So that's

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Speaker 2: where I think, you know, the first part of what

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Speaker 2: I would drill down on with the medical side. But

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Speaker 2: most certainly you know, this is where you know, at

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Speaker 2: the very beginning, I could sense that this situation with Elsie,

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Speaker 2: Norman is feeling trapped and Elsie could be using, you know,

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Speaker 2: this fake pregnancy as a way to further kind of

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Speaker 2: capture Norman into maintaining a relationship with her.

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Speaker 1: For sure, one of the things investigators do when he

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Speaker 1: says that she had hanged herself was they start looking

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Speaker 1: in his hut for evidence of a hanging. So it

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Speaker 1: sounds like Norman had said he found her hanging from

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Speaker 1: the beams in the hut. I'm assuming this hut looked

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Speaker 1: to me like if that was the hut. Low ceilings,

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Speaker 1: It's seemed like though that might not be the first

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Speaker 1: choice for someone to use. It seems like it could

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Speaker 1: be difficult. Would it be unusual to find somebody from

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Speaker 1: a beam in a ceiling rather than like a doorknob

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Speaker 1: or something that's a little bit more accessible.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, and I think you just you know,

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Speaker 2: stated that, Yeah, hangings can be accomplished from remarkably low

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Speaker 2: items that all you have to do. You can literally

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Speaker 2: be laying down on the floor and just have let's say,

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Speaker 2: the ligature around the neck tied to a doorknob, as

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Speaker 2: you mentioned, versus you know, the thing you typically see

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Speaker 2: on TV shows or in the movies where somebody goes

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Speaker 2: over a wood beam and is standing on a stool

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Speaker 2: and then kicks the stool away. More of you know,

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Speaker 2: like being you know hung, you know, in public executions.

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Speaker 2: So at least with cases you know that we typically see,

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Speaker 2: you don't generally see the you know, the hangings where

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Speaker 2: somebody is hanging from something really high up. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: most really haven't had a case like that. Plenty of

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Speaker 2: textbook examples of that.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, well, this is an experiment. I always find

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Speaker 1: experiments interesting. This I'm sure would not be allowed in

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Speaker 1: a court of law, and I don't think was in

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenty four. So the investigators want to know whether

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Speaker 1: or not there's evidence in the beams, like Norman said,

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Speaker 1: of maybe grooves that have been kind of cut in

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Speaker 1: or impressions made from this washing line that she used.

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Speaker 1: So this is what they did. They did a little experiment.

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Speaker 1: They filled sacks with weights equivalent to Elsie's body weight,

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Speaker 1: and then they suspend these sacks from the beams using

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Speaker 1: this same type of washing line. They make a note

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Speaker 1: of the grooves. They must have taken photos that were

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Speaker 1: in the beams, and then they, of course they search

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Speaker 1: all the beams and they find no similar grooves in

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Speaker 1: the beams. That does not seem like a great experiment.

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Speaker 1: Am I wrong here?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's well, certainly a step to take if you're

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Speaker 2: looking for some evidence. You know, if Norman saying she

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Speaker 2: was literally suspended from this washing line and it was

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Speaker 2: tied around the beam, what kind of wood is it?

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Speaker 2: Does it compress? You think about a beam with the

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Speaker 2: hard corners, you know, the squared off corners, and you

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Speaker 2: have this weight that is focused in that wood. I

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Speaker 2: would expect that there would be some evidence, but maybe

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Speaker 2: it's more of the beam is more of like a log,

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Speaker 2: it's more circular. Did she just step off of a

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Speaker 2: chair and there's not a lot of swinging? You know,

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Speaker 2: maybe you're not going to see a brace of actions

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Speaker 2: by this washing line, and it comes down to how

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Speaker 2: is the washing line actually you know, secured to the beam.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of variables here. Yeah, so

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Speaker 2: you know, the experiment that they did is a step

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Speaker 2: to evalue weight, but there's probably more steps that need

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Speaker 2: to be thought of and looked at. But I go,

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Speaker 2: you know, back to the autopsy, and I know you're you're,

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Speaker 2: you're holding out on me with with the neck injuries,

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Speaker 2: because you know, what they see with the neck could

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Speaker 2: be pretty diagnostic in terms of whether you know, she

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Speaker 2: was truly hanging with full body weight or she was strangled.

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Speaker 2: You know. So that's where I'm kind of again, I'm

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Speaker 2: kind of focusing in on what I think is going

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Speaker 2: to answer the question.

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Speaker 1: Well, just to wrap up the question about the beams,

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Speaker 1: Norman's defense is later going to say this is all

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Speaker 1: bs because you know, we weren't there to supervise the

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Speaker 1: experiment number one, And just like what you said, there

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Speaker 1: are minute details about the wage distribution, the placement of

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Speaker 1: the washing line bodies are different than sacks full of

379
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Speaker 1: all of that stuff. So I think that was not

380
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Speaker 1: allowed in or dismissed, So don't worry about that too much.

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Speaker 1: There was a big question as they're going through their

382
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Speaker 1: investigation about her mental health. They said, you know, assuming

383
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Speaker 1: that she was genuinely pregnant, which seems possible, would she

384
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Speaker 1: actually take her own life and that of her unborn

385
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Speaker 1: child's life. To be honest, don't take that seriously at all.

386
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Speaker 1: I just think people can be in a desperate situation,

387
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Speaker 1: and I would never predict that a lot of the

388
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Speaker 1: people that I read about would have reacted the way

389
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Speaker 1: they reacted. So I think, you know, in a high

390
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Speaker 1: pressure situation where she is feeling like she's having a

391
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Speaker 1: mental break, nothing would surprise me. But the investigators are saying,

392
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Speaker 1: this is not really the way this woman would have reacted,

393
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Speaker 1: and I'm not so sure.

394
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Speaker 2: You know, that's so subjective, yeah, you know, and oftentimes,

395
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:03,120
Speaker 2: you know, where there's these questions deaths, there's what's called

396
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 2: a psychological autopsy where they do dig into the deceased

397
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 2: mental state, whether it be mental health issues, what's going

398
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Speaker 2: on in the victim's life at the time, what prior

399
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:21,400
Speaker 2: psychological evaluations have occurred, you know, And these doctors, these

400
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 2: PhD psychiatrists, you know, they have a background of dealing

401
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 2: with a broad group of individuals where they can kind

402
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 2: of say, this person, the deceased is demonstrating certain behaviors

403
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Speaker 2: that would be consistent with somebody who is possibly going

404
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,679
Speaker 2: to take their life, but you can't say it with

405
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Speaker 2: any type of confirmation.

406
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Speaker 1: Okay, we have to move on to stomach contents, which

407
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Speaker 1: you and I both have said, I mean varies. You

408
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 1: can tell me what you think about this. The corner

409
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Speaker 1: says that after they analyzed Elsie's stomach contents, it looks

410
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Speaker 1: like she had eaten around two hours before her death.

411
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Speaker 1: But I know that the rate of digestion can change

412
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Speaker 1: based on the person or the food, all of that stuff.

413
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Speaker 1: So do you put much you know, veracity in that

414
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Speaker 1: sort of a statement two hours is when she ate you?

415
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Speaker 2: No, I wouldn't in terms of putting it at that

416
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 2: specific of a figure. You know, it's more of has

417
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 2: the stomach emptied or is there still stomach contents that

418
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 2: are recognizable food stuffs, whether it be visibly recognizable or

419
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 2: even microscopically recognizable. And then the pathologists can say, based

420
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 2: on sort of the averages the last meal that the

421
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,679
Speaker 2: victim ate is consistent with whatever this. You know, the

422
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 2: witness statements are saying, but in terms of trying to predict,

423
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Speaker 2: let's say, her actual time of meal, without any other

424
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Speaker 2: corroborating investigative evidence to suggest what time she last ate,

425
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 2: that's really tough, especially just to say it was about

426
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Speaker 2: two hours ago.

427
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Speaker 1: Well, our barrister Helena Ormanton, who I respect incredibly, I

428
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 1: think is really stretching here when I tell you what

429
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 1: she says in a second. So Norman says they ate

430
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Speaker 1: dinner around nine ten together, Elsie stayed for dinner even

431
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: though you know they were arguing in everything, and that

432
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Speaker 1: put Elsie's death if this is right, and we know

433
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 1: it's probably not somewhere in ten forty to eleven ten,

434
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 1: but that's when Norman was picking up Elizabeth and her mother.

435
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 1: Because it was a train, it was on you know time,

436
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: there was a schedule there. So it sounds like he

437
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 1: could have been lying. This is what Helena says. If

438
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: Norman killed Elsie Cameron, it must have been by inflicting

439
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: upon her multiple injuries just after they ate and leaving

440
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: her in a dying state so as to expire in

441
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: his absence while he coolly went off to meet the

442
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: other girl and behaved in a manner which seems to

443
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 1: have aroused none of her suspicions. That seems pretty specific,

444
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 1: especially when we're relying on something that's not particularly reliable.

445
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. And then of course, the you know,

446
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 2: the details about multiple injuries to Elsie, you know, are

447
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 2: those present at autopsy? Even though we're dealing with a

448
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 2: decomposed body, there could be still evidence of those injuries.

449
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 2: So it's corroborating. It's corroborating and refuting these statements and

450
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 2: taking a look at what the evidence says.

451
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's get to what the prosecutor of the

452
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: crown prosecutor ends up doing. He is ultimately arrested, of course,

453
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 1: for her murder, and a few months later, in April,

454
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: his case goes to trial, and everybody starts, you know,

455
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: searching for their experts. From American sherlock Oscar Heinrich was

456
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: asked to buy the prosecutor to come down for the

457
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: David Lambson case, a man who was accused of murdering

458
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: his wife in the bathtub. And Oscar gets down to

459
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: their little cottage where this takes place, and the blood

460
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: is for him in all the wrong places, and he

461
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 1: tells prosecutor, I don't think this was murder. I think

462
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: this was a slip and fall, and now I'm going

463
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: to go call the defense team. So I wonder about

464
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: that with experts, you know, do you feel like most

465
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: experts have that sort of integrity? Oscar did not always

466
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 1: have integrity, But do you feel like that or do

467
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: you think that they are truly There are a lot

468
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 1: of them that are truly kind of guns for hire,

469
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: and they'll say whatever, you know, the prosecutor or the

470
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 1: defense team, whoever's got the money, they will say whatever

471
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 1: they need to say.

472
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 2: Well, when you when you start talking about experts, you know,

473
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 2: ethics is everything you know, and it's it's experienced, it's expertise,

474
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 2: of course, you know, but it fundamentally does come down

475
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 2: to ethics. And unfortunately, there are individuals out there that

476
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 2: will tailor their opinions based on who's paying them, or

477
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 2: if there's any other type of bias that they may have.

478
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 2: And even sometimes ethical experts may form an opinion that's incorrect,

479
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 2: particularly when it is a subject matter that you don't have,

480
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 2: you know, the black and white, objective type of information

481
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 2: to form your opinion with.

482
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 1: Well, we'll see, we've got Bernard Spillsbury who is the

483
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: greatest pathologist in the history of pathologists, at least in

484
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: the UK. And he is very very well known. I

485
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: believed worked on the John Reginald Christy case, the one

486
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: I mentioned before, and he's popped up in several of

487
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: our cases. Now, Maren has said to me, this is

488
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 1: going to drive you crazy. She's convinced that there are

489
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 1: autopsy photos out there of Elsie Cameron, but she wasn't

490
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: able to find them, and so that of course drove

491
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: me crazy. And I searched for him. I couldn't find him.

492
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: So I wish we had photos because sometimes in this

493
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: time period we get well documented photos. So you know,

494
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: you're just going to have to go off of an

495
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: incredibly well versed, well known pathologist who is going to

496
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: be for this time period. We'll have the most educated

497
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: information for us. We'll see.

498
00:28:59,640 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 2: OK.

499
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: So this is what he said. He looks at the

500
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: throat and the way that Norman says he cut up Elsie,

501
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: and he looked at it and he says she did

502
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,719
Speaker 1: not have rope markings on her neck. There is a

503
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: mark there and it's irrefutable, he says it. Everybody says

504
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: it visible to anyone who saw her remains. There's a

505
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: mark there, but he thinks it was a crease or

506
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: like a wrinkle, anything that you'd find on a neck

507
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: of a similarly aged person. So it seems odd. I

508
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: know that she's decomposing, but would he really mistake a

509
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: crease for a rope you burn or what impression whatever

510
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: that would have been in her neck. That seems like

511
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: two very different things to me.

512
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 2: Norman's describing what Elsie hung herself with as a washing line,

513
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 2: So I'm I'm thinking that this is a cordage that's

514
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 2: roughly maybe a quarter of an inch in diameter. Is

515
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 2: do we have any information more specific than it's just

516
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 2: a washing line.

517
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: No, just a washing line. And it doesn't talk about

518
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: how thick it is or thin it is. I mean

519
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: it could vary.

520
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 2: Well, this is where you know Norman's statements in terms

521
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 2: of how he found Elsie, and it sounds like she

522
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 2: is fully suspended from a beam using this washing line.

523
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 2: Her entire body weight is now being focused on this

524
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 2: very thin cordage around her neck. These lines in a

525
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: true full body weight hanging, these are very significant and

526
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 2: deep furrows that are left behind in the tissues of

527
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: the neck. In addition, the structures inside the neck show damage.

528
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 2: So if Spillsbury is looking for these furrows under this

529
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: type of hanging and he's not seeing anything like that,

530
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 2: that's hugely significant from my perspective. He's saying, there's a mark. Now,

531
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 2: what is that mark? Is something, you know, a normal crease,

532
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 2: a normal anatomy of the neck skin, or is it,

533
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 2: you know, maybe an abrasion or something else that could

534
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 2: have happened during a struggle, you know, don't know, you know,

535
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: especially without the photos. But the lack of evidence of

536
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: this ligature digging into Elsie's neck, I've got concerns.

537
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and even if there were, Paul he could have

538
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: done it, he could have strangled her.

539
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 2: So let's say there's ligature strangulation. That often is you've

540
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 2: got a different configuration in terms of how the rope

541
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 2: goes around the neck, and there can be variants. In

542
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: a hanging, a full body weight hanging, that rope is

543
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 2: going to be up under the jaw, and if the

544
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 2: person is like leading you kind of forward with the

545
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: rope going up from behind, you'll see abrasions and everything

546
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 2: else that show such a steep angle because the entire

547
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 2: body weight is pulling that rope up versus strangulation. It's

548
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 2: more parallel if you will, to the ground. If I'm

549
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 2: going to put somebody like in a standing position, now

550
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 2: it will vary, and you can also have it differ

551
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 2: from side to side. But a true full body weight

552
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 2: hanging is pretty obvious looking. That's where I'm going. Okay,

553
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 2: how Spillsbury is, he is a very experienced pathologist, and

554
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 2: he knows what to look for, and he's not seeing that.

555
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, I've got concerns about Norman telling the truth.

556
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: So let me tell you about the physical evidence that

557
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: Spillsbury says to him proves that she did not take

558
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: her own life with hanging. And then I'll tell you

559
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: what he says he sees probably happened to her. Okay,

560
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 1: so two different things for you to react to. So

561
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: here's the first thing. He said. Of course, she's in

562
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 1: a state of decomposition, so this makes it more difficult.

563
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: Buddy said that had she hanged herself, there would be

564
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: bruises and blood leakage into the tissue around her neck,

565
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: or he said, I would have seen signs of asphyxiation.

566
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 1: Do those make sense to you? No?

567
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Okay, you know the signs of the blood and

568
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 2: the tissues inside the neck as well as asphyxiation aspects.

569
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 2: You know, you're cutting off the blood flow to the brain,

570
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 2: you're increasing blood pressure initially when the heart is beating.

571
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 2: So now you get the blood vessels in the eye

572
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 2: starting to you know, kind of burst, These little capillaries burst,

573
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 2: and its classic patikia, these little red dots as well

574
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,719
Speaker 2: as other blood vessels and capillaries in the face. And

575
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 2: then the neck. You know, you've got this tremendous force

576
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 2: in a full body weight hanging around the muscles inside

577
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 2: the neck, and so you'll see bruising or that you

578
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 2: know that noose is digging in the trachea, the larynx

579
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 2: can be damaged. So this is where all of the

580
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 2: this is absent. I was thinking, well, maybe there was

581
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 2: manual strangulation or ligature strangulation. But if he's not even

582
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 2: seeing damage to the neck nor you know, the signs

583
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 2: of asphyxiation, then maybe this is not a strangulation either.

584
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: Okay, now this is not me holding out on you,

585
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: but I did want to delay Spillsbury's observations because I

586
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 1: think he is the most reliable source here. And I

587
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: think it would have been case closed if I had

588
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: disclosed this earlier. So Spillsbury says, this is what I

589
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: think happened. Her glasses were broken nearby, her necklace was

590
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 1: broken nearby. He thinks that she was severely beaten and

591
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: suffered a lethal head injury which resulted in her dying

592
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 1: of shock. He says she had bruises on her ankles,

593
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: her elbows, her shins, some hemorrhage inside her eyeballs, and

594
00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 1: a particularly large bruise on her head, which he he

595
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: says is a crushing blow. And I was wondering if

596
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: this memorment could have caused any of.

597
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,959
Speaker 2: This, But you know, well, I would say that Spillsbury

598
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 2: probably can account for what he can see in the

599
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 2: tissues based off of the dismemberment. Some of these bruises

600
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 2: and stuff most certainly could indicate a struggle with what

601
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 2: he is seeing internally is that there's a significant blow

602
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 2: and is this from a weapon? Is this from her

603
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 2: head being thrust up against the wall or down on

604
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 2: the floor. But it sounds like he is attributing her

605
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 2: death possibly to the head injury, and the other injuries

606
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 2: indicate that there was a struggle between Norman and Elsie.

607
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:44,240
Speaker 2: You know, this is homicide.

608
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what he says. So of course Norman's defense

609
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: team disagrees. They hire three well known experts who, as

610
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: you can imagine, are going to contradict everything that Spillsbury says.

611
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 1: They say that the marks on are consistent with rope

612
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: marks made by hanging, not wrinkles. They were able to

613
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: see the body several weeks after Spillsbury saw the body,

614
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: and the body had already been in the ground for

615
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: several weeks, so you have to think that there. I

616
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: don't know why they were so late to the game,

617
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: but you have to think that the body had really

618
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 1: decomposed at that point. So I don't know, aside the

619
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,919
Speaker 1: fact that they're contradicting, you know, this pathologist who is

620
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,919
Speaker 1: well known, I don't know. I guess I would think that,

621
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: you know, they weren't given enough information to begin with

622
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: because they were so late to the party.

623
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,879
Speaker 2: Here. Well, it also could just be battle of the experts. Yeah,

624
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 2: you know, the defense. You know, over here in the

625
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: United States, the defense has to put on a you know,

626
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 2: competent trial and find find experts to contradict somebody with

627
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 2: the reputation of Spillsbury, you know, and whether or not

628
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 2: these other medical experts or pathology truly have any expertise,

629
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,439
Speaker 2: or if they do, are they altering their opinion right

630
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,760
Speaker 2: now at least with what you told me. They said,

631
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 2: I mean, it sure does not add up. You know,

632
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 2: this is again taking into you have to take this

633
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:20,760
Speaker 2: in context with Norman's statement of how he found Elsie hanging.

634
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 2: She's not laying down on the ground from a doorknob.

635
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 2: She is hanging from the beam, full body weight hanging.

636
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 2: That is so informative to what kinds of injuries her

637
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 2: neck is going to have. And Spillsbury knows that, and

638
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 2: it would be very easy in this day and age

639
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 2: to demonstrate that through photos of other cases, and people

640
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 2: would see, oh yeah, that's unmistakable.

641
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 1: Well let me just tell you for fun to you

642
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: know what they said. First of all, one interesting piece

643
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 1: of information is, you know you had asked about whether

644
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: the skull was fractured. It was not. One thing that

645
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: the original coroner noted about Elsie in her body was

646
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 1: that she had particularly delicate bones, so delicate that he

647
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: pointed it out in this report, which had been documented

648
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: in the autopsy and they were called as thin as

649
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 1: blotting paper. That's then one of the experts for the

650
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: defense said that if Elsie had been beaten to death

651
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 1: and suffered a forceful blow to the head, surely her

652
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: skull would have been fractured. Does that make sense to you.

653
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 2: I don't think anybody could could make that statement. Yeah,

654
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 2: the observation of her being in anthropological terms, grascile versus robust.

655
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 2: You could have like a very robust person right with

656
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 2: robust structure, and you can have somebody who's grascile or

657
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 2: more petite in their structure. And yes, there's mechanical advantages

658
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 2: for strength purposes or resistance to forces with somebody who's

659
00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: more robust. However, you know the skull itself. We don't

660
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 2: know the circumstances of how the hemorrhaging inside her brain occurred,

661
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 2: but the fact that the skull is not crushed in

662
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 2: tells me, well, it's not that big of a force,

663
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 2: and it's probably a very broad surface that the skull

664
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 2: is hitting. It's not in narrow it's not like a

665
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 2: hammer with a very focused force that can punch through

666
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 2: the skull. You can have a significant blow and I'll

667
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 2: use the example of somebody taking somebody's head and thrusting

668
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 2: it really hard onto a floor. It may not even

669
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 2: lacerate the scalp. However, the force is internal to the

670
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 2: skull potentially could cause hemorrhaging in the brain, subarachnoid hemorrhaging,

671
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 2: you know. And then so that's that autopsy where they

672
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 2: will take the calberium off, they take the brain out,

673
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,839
Speaker 2: and they can see the hemorrhaging inside and go, yes,

674
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,359
Speaker 2: definitely could be cause of death. So Spillsbury, I think

675
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 2: a spot on seeing something to his level of expertise,

676
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 2: to his eyes, that is significant enough to be a

677
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 2: cause of death.

678
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: Well, the doctor say he's all wrong, of course, I

679
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 1: mean they're getting this body. Several weeks later, one of

680
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,760
Speaker 1: them said the marks on her neck did have blood

681
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: that leaked into the surrounding tissue, so that is indicative

682
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:28,240
Speaker 1: of a hanging. That Spillsbury exaggerated the bruising on Elsie's body.

683
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 1: He said that it might have been caused as Elsie's

684
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 1: body fell to the floor after Norman cut the washing

685
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 1: line that she was hanging from. The hemorrhaging in her eyeballs,

686
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: he said, could in fact be produced by a hanging,

687
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 1: So I'll pause there before we get to their theory

688
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: about when she died and how she died. Does any

689
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:50,760
Speaker 1: of that stuff add.

690
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 2: Up for me to differentiate Spillsbury and what he is

691
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 2: concluding versus these doctors, I'd have to see the photos,

692
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 2: you know, and maybe even take those foot photos to

693
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 2: a pathologist that I trust. If it's outside of my

694
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 2: experience and expertise. You know, this is where now it's

695
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 2: so hard to differentiate that kind of detail. You know,

696
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 2: It's just Spillsbury is a very experienced and competent pathologist.

697
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 2: I don't know the background of these other doctors. Are

698
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 2: they even pathologists?

699
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: They are, they're professional pathologists who have testified, you know,

700
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: But again, even if they are being honest here, they're

701
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 1: getting the body so many weeks later she to be exhumed,

702
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 1: you know, her body was not being held in some

703
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 1: secure area.

704
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 2: And also recognize, you know, right after she's recovered, technically

705
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 2: there should have been an autopsy done. Then you pull

706
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 2: in this noted pathologist who's now doing his own assessment

707
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 2: of the body, and we don't know exactly to what

708
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 2: extent he is altering the body, And then the body

709
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 2: goes into the ground, you know, and what kind of

710
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 2: process did the body undergo? You know, it's dismember They're

711
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 2: not going to embalm this body. How were these body

712
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 2: parts handled before they were dug up? Yeah, so, you know,

713
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 2: I think to your point, you know, you're recognizing, Yes,

714
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 2: the defense experts are having a worse starting point, you know,

715
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,320
Speaker 2: in terms of what they might be able to see

716
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:21,800
Speaker 2: so many weeks later.

717
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: You know, they have to explain why there weren't clearer

718
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 1: signs of damage to her neck and bringing lungs and

719
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,280
Speaker 1: all of that, you know, everything that Spillsbury's saying should

720
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 1: be there with a hanging that isn't there. So this

721
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 1: is what they say happened the defense. Instead of this

722
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 1: being a simple hanging where she, you know, her neck

723
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 1: breaks or she dies quickly, what they think happened was

724
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 1: she was only partially suffocated. By the time she was

725
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 1: found by Norman. He cut her down, she was not dead,

726
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: she was unconscious. He did not know he thought she

727
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,840
Speaker 1: was dead, And they think she might have been alive

728
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 1: for several more minutes and then died of shock, which

729
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 1: is the only thing that they agree with Spillsbury on.

730
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: I mean, Spillsbury thought he hit her in the back

731
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 1: of the head and she died of shock.

732
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,240
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a possibility, you know, but that's where

733
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 2: you know, how long was he gone? You know, when

734
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 2: did she hang herself relative to when he came in

735
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 2: the door. I just go back to what I feel

736
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 2: is the most objective evidence that contradicts Norman's statement about

737
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,760
Speaker 2: what happened, and that has to do with the Spillsbury's

738
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,280
Speaker 2: observation of the lack of a rope furrow, a lack

739
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 2: to the damage to the next structures, a lack of

740
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 2: hemorrhaging to the strap muscles, you know, or any of

741
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 2: the other next structures, and these other pathologists are trying

742
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 2: to suggest that some of these other minor injuries to

743
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 2: the neck area are consistent with a full body weight hanging.

744
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 2: I put so much more veracity on what I'm hearing

745
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 2: from Spillsbury than these other doctors. And it has nothing

746
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 2: to do with Spillsbury's reputation. I just know what he

747
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 2: would be looking looking for and he's not seeing it.

748
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 2: And I'm going, Okay, she wasn't hanging the way Norman

749
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 2: says she was hanging. Mm, whether she's alive or not.

750
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 2: When he cuts her down. I mean that becomes trivial

751
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 2: yet O, because I don't think he's cutting her down.

752
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,359
Speaker 1: Yeah. So with thank goodness, we're moving finally off of

753
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 1: the medical stuff. Norman takes the stand idiot and he

754
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: taught I mean, this guy, he talks about his romances

755
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,359
Speaker 1: with both Elsie and Elizabeth, and he's definitely not doing

756
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 1: himself any favors. At one point, when he's asked which

757
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: woman he likes more, he says, I do not know.

758
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: I was particularly desirous of marrying any at the time

759
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,359
Speaker 1: of the two. I suppose I thought more of the

760
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: other girl, which is Elizabeth. And then Maren has a

761
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: cheeky little note in here. She said, of course, it's

762
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: not exactly heartwarming thing to hear from the lips of

763
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: a man who had already severed one of the women's heads.

764
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 1: So this is all to say, you know, even with

765
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 1: the best argument from the pathologists that he hired, Norman

766
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: is not looking very good. I don't think things are

767
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:07,760
Speaker 1: going well for him with this trial.

768
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 2: No, you know, and they're hearing directly from him. You

769
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 2: know that he was partial to this other woman, Yeah,

770
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 2: you know, and we just know in these lovers triangles,

771
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 2: you know, jealousy and rage often went out, you know,

772
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 2: and this is where Elsie was putting demands on Norman

773
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 2: that was going to impact his ability to continue having

774
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 2: a relationship with Elizabeth. I mean, we don't need to

775
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 2: have motive in cases, but right there the jury is

776
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 2: hearing directly from Norman. He has motive.

777
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, So A couple of interesting notes, you know,

778
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 1: before we get to the verdict. One is that judge.

779
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 1: I mean, this was classic in the UK and I

780
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 1: don't know in this time period if the judges did this,

781
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: but the judge says to the jury upon giving jury instructions,

782
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:03,320
Speaker 1: he says that Spillsbury's insight is quote the very best

783
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: opinion that can be obtained. I mean, how is that? Okay,

784
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:12,240
Speaker 1: I probably agree with him, But these were similar instructions

785
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: that the judge in John Reginald Christie's case in nineteen

786
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: fifty three gave very biased, sort of like here's your verdict.

787
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,359
Speaker 1: I mean, this is who you should be listening to.

788
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 2: It's definitely biasing the jury. Yeah, you know, the jury

789
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 2: is there to evaluate each of these experts and the

790
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 2: veracity of each of their experts per their observations. For

791
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,760
Speaker 2: the judge to come out and do that. Obviously, I'm

792
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 2: agreeing with what I'm hearing of Spillsbury's opinions, but completely

793
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 2: inappropriate instructions to the jury.

794
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and grounds for an appeal. I would have

795
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 1: thought the jury hands down a verdict and it's probably

796
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 1: no surprise that it's guilty and he is sentenced to death,

797
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: which you know, of course there is I will say

798
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: a little bit of a ruckus over whether or not

799
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: not the death penalty was appropriate in this case because

800
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 1: some people interpreted some reasonable doubt based on these three

801
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 1: pathologists who took the stand on behalf of Norman, Arthur

802
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: Conan Doyle. You know, Sherlock Holmes, author was one of

803
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 1: the people who said this should not be an execution case. This,

804
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 1: you know, we need to look at the evidence. And

805
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 1: he was not saying Norman is not guilty. He was saying,

806
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: I don't think there's enough evidence to warrant this being

807
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 1: a capital case. So the public got involved. It did

808
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 1: not help Norman at all, and he was hanged in

809
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 1: April of nineteen twenty five at the age of twenty five.

810
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 1: He told his father in the last letter two days

811
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 1: before he's executed. He writes to his dad and he said, quote,

812
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 1: never mind, Dad, don't worry. I am a martyr to spillsburyism.

813
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: The interpretation is that, you know, Spillsbury is a man

814
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: who so many people respect. If he says you're guilty,

815
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: you're guilty, regardless of if you are guilty or not.

816
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 1: Of course I don't think you and I believe that.

817
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 1: But that was his statement, was that, you know, obviously

818
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 1: he's blaming this pathologist for all of his woes.

819
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 2: Well, I mean he's sitting there in court and he's

820
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 2: hearing Spillsbury, you know, testify. I got to think Norman

821
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 2: didn't know, you know, what kind of evidence would be

822
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 2: present if Elsie had hung herself. It's a from my perspective,

823
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 2: it's an obvious homicide. I think whether it's a death

824
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 2: eligible case, I think I don't know what the laws

825
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,240
Speaker 2: of England are in terms of differentiating a death sentence

826
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 2: from let's say life without the possibility of being paroled. Right,

827
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 2: But you know, most certainly he's responsible, probably killed her

828
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 2: that evening and try to cover it up by dismembering

829
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 2: her body, getting rid of the evidence, sending letters back

830
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 2: to the parents' house, you know, just to stage the scene.

831
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:02,399
Speaker 2: Everything is pointing strong at Norman and his I would say,

832
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 2: naive and ignorant perspective on what these crimes look like.

833
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:11,800
Speaker 2: He came up with a scenario that he didn't realize

834
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 2: that pathologist would be able to differentiate what's going on.

835
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 2: He got caught.

836
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: You know, I was thinking, Paul is all of this

837
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 1: started with her saying, I'm pregnant, and now you're going

838
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 1: to have to step up and be a man and

839
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: marry me. And if she really believed she was pregnant,

840
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 1: then you know, rightly so, and especially in this time period.

841
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: I wonder what Norman's reaction was when he found out

842
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: that she actually wasn't pregnant. I don't know if he

843
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 1: would have killed her. I think he would have said,

844
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: bug off, I'm breaking up with you, like many men did.

845
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: I'm leaving you and that's it. But I think it

846
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 1: was the pregnancy thing, the being trapped thing, that triggered this.

847
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 1: I could be wrong. He could have murdered many other

848
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: people after this. I don't know.

849
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,839
Speaker 2: It does come down to, you know, kind of evaluate

850
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 2: the violence he inflicted on Elsie, whether or not he

851
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 2: felt trapped. It doesn't matter if Elsie's lying or not

852
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 2: about her pregnancy. You know, he acts out in a

853
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 2: way that kills Elsie, and that just demonstrates a certain

854
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 2: type of criminal behavior that somebody down the road may

855
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 2: be confronted with Norman's rage. They got the right guy,

856
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 2: came with the right verdict. Now, whether or not he

857
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,720
Speaker 2: should have been executed, you know, I really can't say

858
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 2: or weigh in on that. It's just I'm not shedding

859
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Speaker 2: a tear for Norman to be frank No.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the UK doesn't have the death penalty in

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00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 1: a longer. But I do think that this is always

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00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 1: a reminder, and I've said this with listeners all about too.

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00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 1: There are Elsie Cameron's and Sarah Cornell's before them, and

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00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 1: there are them that are going to happen tomorrow because

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00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 1: of the vulnerability of women when they are pregnant and

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00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 1: just the fear that comes up. And so you know,

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Speaker 1: this is why I think cases like this are really important,

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Speaker 1: and this is why we're not going to do a

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Speaker 1: story like this next week. I need a break from

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00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: I really felt I needed a break after Sarah Cornell's

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00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 1: case for that book. But I feel like we keep

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00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 1: doing these stories and there's like, I hope people finally

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00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 1: get it that women are really vulnerable when they're pregnant.

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00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 2: Sure, no, no question about it. So I'm looking forward

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00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 2: to the different type of case you're going to bring

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00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:31,800
Speaker 2: me next week.

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00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 1: Yes, sir, I'll see you then.

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Speaker 2: Sounds good.

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00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 1: Thanks Kate. This has been an exactly right production for

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00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 1: our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot

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00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 1: com slash Buried Bones Sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

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00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

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00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

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00:51:57,760 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

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00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,320
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

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00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:06,720
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

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00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,359
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

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00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 1: Buried Bones Pod.

889
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

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00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

891
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and.

892
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold

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00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now.

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00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 2: Listen to buried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.