WEBVTT - Feeling A Bit Attacked with Maria Konnikova 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:22.396 Pushkin Hey Revisions History listeners, Malcolm here. Before we get started, 0:00:22.556 --> 0:00:25.196 I wanted to update you on a few things. First thing, 0:00:25.796 --> 0:00:31.236 this August twenty fourth, the Revisionist History season begins in earnest, 0:00:31.836 --> 0:00:35.356 eight old school episodes in a row, the little narrative 0:00:35.476 --> 0:00:39.116 jewel boxes you've come to love. We've been feeding you 0:00:39.196 --> 0:00:41.596 a little bits and pieces so far this season, but 0:00:41.756 --> 0:00:44.556 this is the main event. The heart of it is 0:00:44.556 --> 0:00:46.996 a six part series on guns and violence that I 0:00:47.036 --> 0:00:52.076 think is my favorite thing we've ever done. Weird, moving, funny, heartbreaking. 0:00:52.556 --> 0:00:56.236 So mark your calendar's August twenty fourth is when it 0:00:56.276 --> 0:00:58.836 all happens. And by the way, if you want to 0:00:58.876 --> 0:01:01.716 get that whole mini series early and binge it all 0:01:01.756 --> 0:01:04.796 at once without ads, you can just by becoming a 0:01:04.836 --> 0:01:08.596 Pushkin Plus subscriber. In fact, just six ninety nine a 0:01:08.636 --> 0:01:11.676 month or thirty nine ninety nine a year gets you 0:01:11.956 --> 0:01:15.756 every one of the Pushkin shows early and ad free. 0:01:16.236 --> 0:01:19.156 Just go to the Revisionist History showpage in Apple Podcasts 0:01:19.556 --> 0:01:24.316 or Pushkin dot fm, slash plus to sign up. And 0:01:24.356 --> 0:01:27.276 one laice thing. Speaking of things you should binge, the 0:01:27.356 --> 0:01:31.956 latest season of our true crime masterpiece Lost Hills has dropped. 0:01:32.116 --> 0:01:35.316 The new season explores a legacy of Malibu's dark prints 0:01:35.716 --> 0:01:39.516 Mickey Dora. Mickey was a surfer known for his style, grace, 0:01:39.556 --> 0:01:42.916 and aggression who ruled the Malibu Beaches from the nineteen 0:01:42.956 --> 0:01:47.276 fifties to the nineteen seventies. Celebrated for his rebellious spirit, 0:01:47.596 --> 0:01:50.156 he was also a con man who led the FBI 0:01:50.196 --> 0:01:52.996 on a seven year man hunt around the world. Believe me, 0:01:53.316 --> 0:01:55.836 this is a show worth a listen, so sign up 0:01:55.876 --> 0:02:02.036 for Pushkin Plus and you can binge this one too. Hello, 0:02:02.036 --> 0:02:05.636 Hello everyone, Malcolm Babble here. I'm here in the studio 0:02:05.916 --> 0:02:10.996 with Marya Konikova, the revisionist history ombusman who's come by 0:02:11.396 --> 0:02:15.556 for the second time to do a little bit of 0:02:15.996 --> 0:02:19.556 correction and instruction and tell me what's gone right and 0:02:19.636 --> 0:02:22.116 wrong in her own mind with our season so far. 0:02:22.276 --> 0:02:23.236 Were you welcome? 0:02:23.556 --> 0:02:25.996 Thanks so much for having me, Malcolm. It is always 0:02:26.036 --> 0:02:28.516 a pleasure, although I have to say that in your 0:02:28.596 --> 0:02:32.356 last few episodes, I have felt a little bit personally 0:02:32.476 --> 0:02:35.956 under attack. I mean, we had the Monk Debates, which 0:02:36.996 --> 0:02:40.196 was an absolutely fascinating episode to me, and I'll say 0:02:40.196 --> 0:02:42.196 a little bit about it in a second, but I 0:02:42.236 --> 0:02:43.756 don't know if you know that. I used to be 0:02:43.796 --> 0:02:47.676 a debater, and I debated for multiple years at a 0:02:47.716 --> 0:02:49.196 pretty high level in high school. 0:02:49.196 --> 0:02:53.396 In high school, yes, and wait and were you successful? 0:02:53.916 --> 0:02:57.196 I was successful? But then I stopped debating, so I 0:02:57.236 --> 0:03:00.356 did not debate in college, and I stopped debating at 0:03:00.356 --> 0:03:02.436 the point where you would have gone to like nationals 0:03:02.596 --> 0:03:05.236 and like really had to focus a lot of time 0:03:05.276 --> 0:03:07.836 on it, because at first I got into it as 0:03:07.876 --> 0:03:12.516 a way of clarifying my thinking, and I just thought 0:03:12.516 --> 0:03:16.196 it was amazing when I watched people do this, like, Wow, 0:03:16.236 --> 0:03:18.756 they can synthesize so much information, they can argue all 0:03:18.796 --> 0:03:22.676 these points. And I'm someone who really loves to argue 0:03:22.676 --> 0:03:25.396 out both sides of something to figure out, you know 0:03:26.556 --> 0:03:29.996 what do I think you know what's important here? And 0:03:30.356 --> 0:03:32.076 so I thought debate would help me with that, and 0:03:32.116 --> 0:03:35.756 it did. But there came a point where it became formulaic, 0:03:35.756 --> 0:03:37.676 where I figured out how to do it, and then 0:03:37.716 --> 0:03:40.756 I lost interest in it because I realized that it 0:03:40.796 --> 0:03:44.796 wasn't actually about thinking deeply. It was much more about 0:03:44.996 --> 0:03:48.836 rhetorical defness technique technique exactly. 0:03:48.916 --> 0:03:51.036 It is heavy. That's that was the great takeaway for 0:03:51.116 --> 0:03:54.436 me in doing this because I never I debated very 0:03:54.476 --> 0:03:57.596 casually in high school once or twice, and we did 0:03:57.676 --> 0:04:00.396 parliamentary debating where hackling was allowed. 0:04:00.596 --> 0:04:02.636 And so that's amazing. We did not have heckling. 0:04:02.716 --> 0:04:04.916 We had hackling because you have hackling in parliament, real 0:04:04.956 --> 0:04:05.876 parmentary systems. 0:04:06.356 --> 0:04:07.716 Oh, Parliament's a shit show. 0:04:07.756 --> 0:04:10.196 Oh yeah. So when we did debating, we just were 0:04:10.196 --> 0:04:12.156 focused on the hackling. That's what you know. 0:04:12.236 --> 0:04:14.196 I mean, of course that sounds so fun. So I missed, 0:04:14.196 --> 0:04:16.756 I'd probably still be debating, and that's that's what our 0:04:16.756 --> 0:04:19.716 debate was. But your debate, the Monk Debates, was not 0:04:19.756 --> 0:04:20.436 about heckling. 0:04:20.556 --> 0:04:21.916 No, no, it was. 0:04:22.036 --> 0:04:24.316 Yeah, it was a very different format. So for people 0:04:24.396 --> 0:04:26.836 who didn't listen to the episode or need a little 0:04:26.836 --> 0:04:30.356 bit of a refresher, you were arguing a resolution, and 0:04:30.396 --> 0:04:34.396 the resolution was don't trust mainstream media, and you were 0:04:34.436 --> 0:04:37.316 against this. You were on a team with Michelle Goldberg, 0:04:37.636 --> 0:04:42.796 and you were debating against Matt Taibi and Douglas Murray. 0:04:43.116 --> 0:04:45.836 And Douglas Murray, as I found out, and I saw 0:04:46.276 --> 0:04:49.556 as did other people who you spoke with after that, 0:04:49.636 --> 0:04:54.356 he's a debater and and so he's yeah, he's so 0:04:54.396 --> 0:04:56.716 we're going to spoil it spoiler alert, how did you do? 0:04:56.836 --> 0:05:00.636 Malcolm got destroyed? I mean it was humiliation on the 0:05:00.716 --> 0:05:04.036 level to my social media to this day is just 0:05:04.036 --> 0:05:06.916 filled people gloating about how I got my hat handed 0:05:06.916 --> 0:05:07.156 to me. 0:05:07.796 --> 0:05:09.596 You did, you did? But what I act act like? 0:05:09.716 --> 0:05:12.636 I loved that after that happened, you went to learn 0:05:12.676 --> 0:05:15.356 to figure out what you did wrong, and so I 0:05:15.396 --> 0:05:17.636 loved kind of the second part of the episode where 0:05:17.636 --> 0:05:20.916 we get to hear professionals talk about, you know, what 0:05:20.996 --> 0:05:24.436 you could have done, what you didn't do, and you 0:05:24.476 --> 0:05:25.676 went to learn how to debate. 0:05:26.076 --> 0:05:30.356 My complete ignorance of this debating technique, yeah, is what 0:05:31.116 --> 0:05:34.236 killed me. That and also the fact that you know, 0:05:34.876 --> 0:05:38.636 I was excessively self confident going into the and not 0:05:38.796 --> 0:05:40.876 self confident in my abilities to debate so much as 0:05:41.076 --> 0:05:44.036 self confident in my in the position I was arguing. 0:05:44.276 --> 0:05:46.996 I just didn't think that there were lots of people 0:05:47.036 --> 0:05:49.956 out there, particularly in Canada, who would believe that you 0:05:49.956 --> 0:05:52.676 shouldn't trust the mainstream media. I just couldn't get I 0:05:52.756 --> 0:05:53.676 just thought we're going to win. 0:05:54.116 --> 0:05:57.876 You know, I loved the excerpts that you chose for 0:05:57.916 --> 0:06:00.756 the podcast, because you know, you really showed some of 0:06:00.796 --> 0:06:03.556 the issues, which is I actually I don't think this 0:06:03.676 --> 0:06:06.316 was a bad thing because you felt strongly about your topic, right, 0:06:06.516 --> 0:06:09.636 you didn't even think that it was possible to argue 0:06:09.636 --> 0:06:12.596 the other side because I mean, as you just said yourself, 0:06:12.636 --> 0:06:15.356 like who you have to be insane to not trust 0:06:15.436 --> 0:06:18.156 mainstream media to think that the alternative is better. And 0:06:18.196 --> 0:06:20.996 so you brought a lot of emotion to it, which 0:06:21.276 --> 0:06:23.076 I think is good from a human point of view, 0:06:23.076 --> 0:06:25.796 but from a debating point of view is not necessarily 0:06:25.836 --> 0:06:29.996 ideal and can cloud your ability to hear the other 0:06:30.036 --> 0:06:33.556 side's arguments, what they're actually saying, whether they're twisting your words, 0:06:33.596 --> 0:06:38.436 whether they're twisting the actual premise of the debate. Yeah, 0:06:38.476 --> 0:06:42.276 and that's I think where you got got so to speak. 0:06:42.876 --> 0:06:46.316 Yeah, it's funny because I'm not normally I'm not normally 0:06:46.316 --> 0:06:50.676 someone who does rise to debate, and I'm not normally 0:06:50.676 --> 0:06:54.316 someone who's terribly emotion I don't really get angry much 0:06:54.436 --> 0:06:57.556 or but in that there was something about that context 0:06:57.636 --> 0:07:01.356 that just like I got pissed off about halfway through, Yeah, 0:07:01.396 --> 0:07:03.156 and I just couldn't keep it in. 0:07:03.556 --> 0:07:06.116 Yeah, and you could tell that you were pissed. 0:07:06.956 --> 0:07:11.596 I really think that Douglas Murray loathsome all right. 0:07:11.436 --> 0:07:14.116 All right, well we'll just we'll have that on the record. 0:07:15.756 --> 0:07:19.956 But that gets to kind of the psychological heart of it, though, 0:07:19.996 --> 0:07:21.876 because what we know is as soon as he presses 0:07:21.876 --> 0:07:25.036 that button and you actually become enraged and you become emotional, 0:07:25.716 --> 0:07:29.716 your logic goes down a little bit, your ability to 0:07:29.756 --> 0:07:33.236 process information goes down a little bit, and your ability 0:07:33.276 --> 0:07:36.916 to listen goes down a little bit. That's why when 0:07:36.956 --> 0:07:38.676 we're in an argument, we want to be the one 0:07:38.716 --> 0:07:40.636 who does not get emotional, right. You want to be 0:07:40.636 --> 0:07:42.156 the one who steps back. You want to be the 0:07:42.156 --> 0:07:44.916 one who says, Okay, you know, let's take five minutes. Obviously, 0:07:44.956 --> 0:07:47.916 when you're on stage in front of an audience with 0:07:47.956 --> 0:07:50.516 someone you find loathsome, you can't say, okay, let's pause 0:07:50.556 --> 0:07:52.756 this for five minutes and take a step back. But 0:07:52.836 --> 0:07:55.796 it actually made me think some of the criticism that 0:07:56.236 --> 0:07:59.916 you got was not listening well. And it made me think, 0:08:00.956 --> 0:08:02.916 and this gets to the heart of why I quit 0:08:02.956 --> 0:08:06.876 debate of something that I learned from con artists. So 0:08:07.036 --> 0:08:09.116 a few books back, I wrote a book about con artists, 0:08:09.156 --> 0:08:11.236 and I spent multiple years with con artists and I 0:08:11.316 --> 0:08:14.756 learned all of these fascinating histories, and therefore and con 0:08:14.836 --> 0:08:19.916 artist totally fascinating character. Victor Lustig. I don't know if 0:08:19.916 --> 0:08:22.596 you've heard of him. He styled himself as Count Lustig, 0:08:22.636 --> 0:08:25.196 even though he was not a count. This was early 0:08:25.276 --> 0:08:29.996 twentieth century. So Victor Lustig is most famous for selling 0:08:30.156 --> 0:08:33.796 the Eiffel Tower not once, but twice to two different 0:08:33.836 --> 0:08:35.916 groups of investors. So he was very good at what 0:08:35.996 --> 0:08:38.516 he did. And he wrote something called the Ten Commandments 0:08:38.556 --> 0:08:42.716 of con Artists. And one of those commandments is something 0:08:42.756 --> 0:08:45.676 that just came to mind immediately, which is that a 0:08:45.716 --> 0:08:48.156 con artist isn't a good talker. A con artist is 0:08:48.196 --> 0:08:51.836 a good listener. And if you think, if you think 0:08:51.876 --> 0:08:55.516 about what that means, right, listening to the other person 0:08:55.796 --> 0:08:58.196 is how you get them, and it's how you trick them, 0:08:58.436 --> 0:09:02.236 is how you take advantage of them. And so it 0:09:02.396 --> 0:09:05.276 actually that's what came to mind when I was listening 0:09:05.316 --> 0:09:08.116 to this debate, and I thought, wait, a debate is 0:09:08.116 --> 0:09:10.556 a con in lot of ways. 0:09:10.396 --> 0:09:10.996 It's interesting. 0:09:11.076 --> 0:09:13.796 It's kind of a way to you know, if you're 0:09:13.836 --> 0:09:16.756 the better listener, you're actually going to be the better talker, 0:09:16.916 --> 0:09:19.716 and you're going to be able to take advantage because 0:09:19.796 --> 0:09:22.956 con artists are great talkers, right, they're silver tongued, but 0:09:23.116 --> 0:09:24.316 listening is at the heart of it. 0:09:24.796 --> 0:09:26.876 But here's the other thing I was thinking about, you know, 0:09:26.876 --> 0:09:30.996 with respect to debating, the second way in which debating 0:09:31.116 --> 0:09:34.156 is kind of a not a trick, but oh it's 0:09:34.156 --> 0:09:36.636 a trick, well a version of a trick, and that 0:09:36.796 --> 0:09:42.716 is that I realized that my my normal way of 0:09:42.756 --> 0:09:46.956 going about the world is I take in information and 0:09:47.156 --> 0:09:51.276 don't respond immediately. I tend to turn things over for 0:09:51.316 --> 0:09:54.076 a long time and decide how I feel a long 0:09:54.836 --> 0:09:58.516 time later, might be weeks later, might be months later. 0:09:58.636 --> 0:10:01.876 I'm someone who kind of I'm a slow processor, and 0:10:02.476 --> 0:10:06.156 so processing has been very useful for me. The debate 0:10:06.636 --> 0:10:11.076 form does not advantage the slow processor. I was in 0:10:11.076 --> 0:10:13.116 a situation orlves and I had to do in real 0:10:13.156 --> 0:10:15.316 time respond to people. I can't do that. Yeah, I 0:10:15.596 --> 0:10:18.956 have a kind of and Douglas Murray a great debater. 0:10:19.396 --> 0:10:23.036 His great advantage is his fluidity. Right, It's just like 0:10:23.476 --> 0:10:27.636 it comes in one ear and boomy as a response, 0:10:28.156 --> 0:10:30.596 and I'm still thinking about it months later. I'm still 0:10:30.596 --> 0:10:32.236 thinking about what should I have said? 0:10:32.236 --> 0:10:35.396 You knowing that, yeah, and it's it's a skill. It's 0:10:35.396 --> 0:10:37.356 a skill, and that's you know, at the end of 0:10:37.396 --> 0:10:40.676 the day, that's what I came away with That debate 0:10:40.836 --> 0:10:45.316 teaches you very useful skills of fluency and of conning. 0:10:45.876 --> 0:10:48.396 Yeah. I want to an additional point about this, least 0:10:48.476 --> 0:10:51.396 yar when I went and hung out with the Brooklyn 0:10:51.476 --> 0:10:53.956 Debate League the other there were my tutors and had 0:10:53.996 --> 0:10:57.436 to be a better debater. The one transcendent value in 0:10:57.556 --> 0:11:01.596 running to debate. Remember that the kids that they at 0:11:01.636 --> 0:11:05.036 the Brooklyn Debate League, they they're most concerned with, many 0:11:05.076 --> 0:11:08.196 of them are from less privileged backgrounds. Right, you're talking 0:11:08.196 --> 0:11:11.636 about kids from poor areas of Brooklyn. You know what 0:11:11.916 --> 0:11:17.356 debating allows is for these kids to be heard on 0:11:17.436 --> 0:11:20.316 subjects where they would were normally no one would ever 0:11:20.356 --> 0:11:24.076 pay them the suddest attention. So you tell a fifteen 0:11:24.116 --> 0:11:29.396 year old kid from Bushwick, we're going to debate immigration policy, 0:11:29.756 --> 0:11:32.276 and not only do they get to talk about immigration 0:11:32.276 --> 0:11:34.396 policy and people have to listen, but it allows them 0:11:34.396 --> 0:11:39.036 to almost have another identity. And these are kids who 0:11:39.036 --> 0:11:41.476 never have a chance to have another identity. Yeah, right, 0:11:41.716 --> 0:11:45.036 and that's what is an incredible gift. That's being given 0:11:45.036 --> 0:11:47.756 to them by allowing them to stand up and inhabit 0:11:48.356 --> 0:11:51.636 a way of thinking or a set of opinions that 0:11:52.076 --> 0:11:53.836 would otherwise be denied to them. 0:11:54.076 --> 0:11:56.556 Now that's amazing, and I think that that is something 0:11:56.596 --> 0:11:59.636 that it's actually incredibly special about debates. So let's just 0:11:59.716 --> 0:12:02.796 caveat and put that as an asterisk that it can 0:12:02.876 --> 0:12:06.396 give you tremendous skills, It can give you confidence, and 0:12:06.476 --> 0:12:08.516 especially you know, someone like me. You know, I didn't 0:12:08.556 --> 0:12:11.236 speak English when I came here as an immigrant, didn't 0:12:11.276 --> 0:12:13.756 fit in very well, and that was also a way 0:12:13.796 --> 0:12:14.916 for me to fit in at first. 0:12:15.196 --> 0:12:15.716 Yeah. 0:12:16.316 --> 0:12:20.836 Yeah, So there was actually one listener email that came 0:12:20.876 --> 0:12:23.156 in which actually raises some of the things we've been 0:12:23.156 --> 0:12:27.076 talking about. So here's what Jonathan writes, So, what if 0:12:27.076 --> 0:12:29.436 we learn to listen to each other in debates. I've 0:12:29.436 --> 0:12:32.356 always struggled with the benefits of any debate. Does winning 0:12:32.396 --> 0:12:34.916 a debate matter anymore to the well being of society 0:12:34.956 --> 0:12:38.436 as your favorite NBA team winning a game matters? Does 0:12:38.476 --> 0:12:41.716 a society full of expert debaters achieve something our current 0:12:41.796 --> 0:12:45.236 society cannot? And I think this was actually, you know, 0:12:45.356 --> 0:12:48.316 a really important question and something that we've been touching 0:12:48.316 --> 0:12:51.796 on because while I think that you know, debate has 0:12:51.836 --> 0:12:54.036 given me a lot of positives, and as you say, 0:12:54.116 --> 0:12:56.596 kind of this group in Brooklyn, it's definitely giving them 0:12:56.636 --> 0:13:00.716 a lot those skills of you know, fluidity and being 0:13:00.756 --> 0:13:04.276 silver tongued are not necessarily I think beneficial. 0:13:05.716 --> 0:13:10.916 Well, the questions are there sort of spillover effects, Like listening. 0:13:12.676 --> 0:13:15.676 Being someone who learns to pay attention carefully to what 0:13:15.716 --> 0:13:18.956 people are saying is a really important skill that you 0:13:18.996 --> 0:13:23.076 can only gain through practice. And so to the extent 0:13:23.116 --> 0:13:26.596 that debating is really listening practice, then I think it's 0:13:26.636 --> 0:13:31.116 really useful. A lot of what's difficult about listening, and 0:13:31.196 --> 0:13:33.356 why I think we think of it as an imperiled skill, 0:13:33.476 --> 0:13:38.156 is that listening is about the negation of the self. Right, 0:13:38.556 --> 0:13:42.836 I is not important. It's you who are important, And 0:13:43.476 --> 0:13:46.796 there's so much privileging of I these days. I've always 0:13:46.836 --> 0:13:49.876 wanted to, you know, I have a little alternate fantasy 0:13:49.916 --> 0:13:52.356 where I teach an English class for a year, and 0:13:52.596 --> 0:13:56.316 I would like in my English class. I don't know 0:13:56.316 --> 0:13:58.956 if you'd want to, but one of the rules I 0:13:58.956 --> 0:14:00.436 would have is we're going to write a series of 0:14:00.436 --> 0:14:02.836 things over the course of the next year. And my 0:14:02.996 --> 0:14:07.676 rule is you can never ever use the word I 0:14:07.756 --> 0:14:11.076 in anything you write for me, right, No eyes. If 0:14:11.076 --> 0:14:14.356 you if I see an eye referring to yourself in 0:14:14.396 --> 0:14:17.716 anything you write, you fail. Right, And just that I 0:14:17.716 --> 0:14:21.276 feel like the kind of the discipline of forcing someone 0:14:21.356 --> 0:14:25.796 to always be talking about the other and to distance 0:14:25.836 --> 0:14:30.676 themselves from their own perspective, it would just be incredibly useful. 0:14:30.876 --> 0:14:33.196 Yeah, and the New Yorker would be very happy that 0:14:33.276 --> 0:14:35.836 they have a whole generation of writers who don't use eye. 0:14:35.996 --> 0:14:37.756 I tried so hard for so long when I was 0:14:37.796 --> 0:14:40.276 a New York writer not to fall into the eye trap, 0:14:40.876 --> 0:14:44.476 and then you know, eventually you're like, yive in he's. 0:14:44.396 --> 0:14:48.356 Like speaking to this journalist. I know. It's so disingenuous. 0:14:48.436 --> 0:14:51.916 I love and the English gout around this by saying one, yes, 0:14:52.036 --> 0:14:55.476 one listens to one's perspective. 0:14:54.956 --> 0:14:57.236 On my and what does one think about this? 0:14:57.396 --> 0:14:58.876 The problem is that you get you get into the 0:14:58.956 --> 0:15:01.956 multiple one then and you once you commit to using 0:15:01.956 --> 0:15:04.836 one once you have to keep and you're like, oh, please, 0:15:05.036 --> 0:15:06.476 just stop it. It's really annoying. 0:15:06.796 --> 0:15:08.636 And it's not just annoying, it makes it difficult to 0:15:08.676 --> 0:15:11.636 understand because it's actually unclear. 0:15:11.636 --> 0:15:15.996 Yeah, Yeah, let's take a quick break. 0:15:20.396 --> 0:15:22.396 The second thing I wanted to talk to you about 0:15:22.396 --> 0:15:26.756 today is the importance of precise language, even if that 0:15:26.836 --> 0:15:30.396 language might make you uncomfortable, even if that language might 0:15:30.436 --> 0:15:34.236 not be nice so to speak, but the importance of 0:15:34.276 --> 0:15:39.676 saying precisely what you mean. And I actually started laughing 0:15:39.756 --> 0:15:43.836 out loud at this listener email that we got. So 0:15:44.596 --> 0:15:47.196 I'm taking the liberty of writing as an admirer of 0:15:47.236 --> 0:15:50.676 Malcolm Gladwell's work to share my humble opinion on the 0:15:50.756 --> 0:15:54.516 use of swear words and vulgar language in your content. 0:15:55.196 --> 0:15:57.636 There is no doubt their use in proliferation has become 0:15:57.676 --> 0:16:00.516 part of the zeitgeist. It seems people feel that, even 0:16:00.556 --> 0:16:04.116 informal context, they lend an air of cool and nonchalance, 0:16:04.636 --> 0:16:07.716 helping them avoid coming across as stuffy and staid in 0:16:07.756 --> 0:16:10.236 a culture where everyone eques really wants to be hip. 0:16:10.796 --> 0:16:13.476 What they don't realize is at the same time they 0:16:13.636 --> 0:16:16.596 cheapen the language and give it an air of tawdriness. 0:16:16.956 --> 0:16:20.156 It's the opposite of classy and also reflects laziness on 0:16:20.196 --> 0:16:23.676 the part of the writer. I hardly doubt Pushkin would 0:16:23.716 --> 0:16:27.956 have used such curse words in his writing. And this 0:16:28.036 --> 0:16:32.636 is where I just lost my shit, because this is 0:16:32.676 --> 0:16:35.796 someone who has never read a word of Pushkin. Pushkin 0:16:36.116 --> 0:16:40.356 is the most foul mouthed poet just I think, in 0:16:40.436 --> 0:16:43.516 Russian history, and this is among other foul mouthed poets. 0:16:43.636 --> 0:16:47.796 There is profanity in Russian language, and it's not just profanity, 0:16:47.916 --> 0:16:51.996 it is like it is profane profanity and your namesake company, 0:16:52.436 --> 0:16:55.356 you know, Pushkin, Yeah, is named for someone who was 0:16:55.836 --> 0:17:01.476 so enamored with precision in words, with using the right word, 0:17:01.996 --> 0:17:05.276 and he would actually he has an entire poem that 0:17:05.396 --> 0:17:08.876 laughs at censorship and at people being snooty about language. 0:17:09.116 --> 0:17:10.916 I'm not going to actually read that poem, but I 0:17:10.996 --> 0:17:15.276 was going to read a few a few Pushkin lines. 0:17:15.956 --> 0:17:18.076 So let me just give this gentleman a taste of 0:17:18.116 --> 0:17:23.236 what Pushkin's writing is. Actually. Like, there's one from a 0:17:23.276 --> 0:17:27.036 poem which is called the Wagon of Life Tide. So 0:17:27.076 --> 0:17:29.636 I'm actually going to just read this lovely for just 0:17:29.676 --> 0:17:32.476 four lines in Russian, and then we'll do a translation. 0:17:33.276 --> 0:17:44.036 Soutra Sadamites, pashol youbon mites. Russian is such a beautiful 0:17:44.636 --> 0:17:47.836 melodic language. Yes, So here's this is this is just 0:17:47.916 --> 0:17:50.916 my rough translation, in the morning, we get into this car, 0:17:51.036 --> 0:17:54.556 which is, you know, this wagon of life. We are 0:17:54.636 --> 0:17:58.076 happy to challenge our brains. Literally it says break our heads, 0:17:58.116 --> 0:18:03.156 but that's not idiomatic. So and detesting laziness and leisure. 0:18:03.676 --> 0:18:08.236 We yell get moving. Fucking mother, but it's not fucking 0:18:08.276 --> 0:18:11.396 mother is the literal translation, but that does not even 0:18:12.156 --> 0:18:16.796 begin to describe it. So in Russian, the word to 0:18:16.956 --> 0:18:24.316 fuck and all of its permutations is such an incredibly 0:18:24.356 --> 0:18:27.316 powerful thing that So I was talking to my mom 0:18:27.716 --> 0:18:30.156 in preparation for this episode and asked her, you know, 0:18:30.196 --> 0:18:32.316 how would she describe it? She said, well, you could 0:18:32.356 --> 0:18:36.076 say that saying fucking English would be like, you know, 0:18:36.356 --> 0:18:40.396 a politician just giving a talk in front of an audience, 0:18:40.436 --> 0:18:42.836 compared to what something like you be on the mind 0:18:42.916 --> 0:18:44.556 sounds like in Russian. 0:18:44.596 --> 0:18:45.356 I mean people can. 0:18:45.276 --> 0:18:47.636 Get killed for saying that to someone else. It's a 0:18:47.756 --> 0:18:50.716 very yeah, I mean you can. There's there's actually a 0:18:50.756 --> 0:18:54.996 history of you know, people bringing fists to faces when 0:18:55.036 --> 0:18:57.796 you when you use phrasing like that, because you know, 0:18:57.836 --> 0:19:00.516 it's incredibly incredibly powerful. 0:19:00.516 --> 0:19:02.836 But your voice changes when you speak Russian, and this 0:19:02.996 --> 0:19:05.756 really interesting way. I'm falling in love with you speaking 0:19:05.796 --> 0:19:07.756 Russian way. 0:19:06.476 --> 0:19:07.956 That's very funny. 0:19:08.156 --> 0:19:10.436 Can we do an episode where you just speaking Russian? 0:19:10.556 --> 0:19:10.716 Yeah? 0:19:10.716 --> 0:19:14.796 Absolutely, let's do it. Let's do it. It's not just me, 0:19:14.956 --> 0:19:18.116 who's who thinks that? This is so incredibly important. If 0:19:18.116 --> 0:19:21.396 you look at you know, Russian history, the use of 0:19:21.436 --> 0:19:25.676 swearing is an incredibly important part of the language, part 0:19:25.676 --> 0:19:28.956 of expression, part of kind of communicating clearly, and in fact, 0:19:28.996 --> 0:19:33.596 Dostoyevsky wrote back in eighteen seventy three about how the 0:19:33.716 --> 0:19:39.196 single word khui, which means prick, dick, but it's once 0:19:39.236 --> 0:19:42.356 again it's you know, both prick and dick and cock like, 0:19:42.396 --> 0:19:46.716 all of those words are not not quite right. But 0:19:47.196 --> 0:19:50.916 the male sexual organ, how you could basically describe everything 0:19:50.996 --> 0:19:53.236 and every single emotion in the Russian language with that 0:19:53.276 --> 0:19:56.116 one word, and his permutations, and how he thought that 0:19:56.196 --> 0:20:00.636 it was just awful that because of censorship he couldn't 0:20:00.756 --> 0:20:04.116 actually use it, and so he has just this whole 0:20:04.276 --> 0:20:06.596 big thing on it. And this is Dustoyevsky. Ye, so 0:20:06.676 --> 0:20:09.076 if you had named your company Dustoyevsky instead of Pushkin, 0:20:09.596 --> 0:20:12.396 he also would have been eyeboard. 0:20:12.516 --> 0:20:16.876 Can I just venture a mild defense of our letter writer? 0:20:17.796 --> 0:20:18.556 Yes, please go? 0:20:19.316 --> 0:20:23.396 Which is I think that what the letter writer is 0:20:23.596 --> 0:20:30.996 arguing against is sloppiness that sometimes people use profanity when 0:20:31.076 --> 0:20:37.316 they can't be bothered to express themselves more articulately, more clearly, 0:20:37.356 --> 0:20:40.556 more specifically, more and it was it becomes a kind 0:20:40.556 --> 0:20:46.836 of crutch. But the careful and the choice use of profanity, 0:20:47.236 --> 0:20:50.956 it can be very powerful and sometimes even beautiful. Absolutely, 0:20:51.556 --> 0:20:53.836 And there are times I remember I had this conversation 0:20:53.916 --> 0:20:57.916 with spending enough. A friend of my brothers is a 0:20:57.956 --> 0:21:00.516 men and night pastor who is writing a book about 0:21:01.276 --> 0:21:04.156 the use of profanity in the religious context, and he 0:21:04.236 --> 0:21:07.596 told me the story about a woman whose sort of 0:21:07.596 --> 0:21:11.436 life had called a series of incredible, terrible things had 0:21:11.436 --> 0:21:14.276 happened to her, and she relates this to her friend, 0:21:14.436 --> 0:21:17.196 and her friend, who was someone who would never in 0:21:17.196 --> 0:21:21.836 a million years use a profanity, use of profanity, And 0:21:21.876 --> 0:21:27.236 it was this incredibly emotionally important moment, because what the 0:21:27.276 --> 0:21:29.316 woman who was suffering needed at that moment was someone 0:21:29.316 --> 0:21:32.876 who understood the magnitude of what had happened to her. 0:21:33.156 --> 0:21:38.476 And the only way for a very strict religious person 0:21:38.676 --> 0:21:43.276 to express that was to swear, was to go into 0:21:43.316 --> 0:21:47.036 forbidden territory, right, Like, that's really beautiful and I don't 0:21:47.076 --> 0:21:50.476 think our letter writer would disagree with that kind of 0:21:50.916 --> 0:21:51.716 use of profanity. 0:21:51.836 --> 0:21:54.116 I don't know. I don't know our letter writers seemed. 0:21:54.236 --> 0:21:55.596 I'm just much more generous to her. 0:21:55.716 --> 0:21:58.996 I'm not. I get so. One of the reasons I 0:21:59.036 --> 0:22:02.236 get so riled up about this is the letter writer 0:22:02.356 --> 0:22:05.116 has a lot in common with Latimer Putin, because back 0:22:05.156 --> 0:22:10.556 in twenty fourteen putin an act a ban on using 0:22:10.636 --> 0:22:16.436 the four base swear words in Russian in any sort 0:22:16.476 --> 0:22:19.676 of cultural or artistic expression. So hui, which we already 0:22:19.716 --> 0:22:22.916 talked about you butte, which was in the Pushkin poem, 0:22:23.036 --> 0:22:24.996 so that poem would have been censored and would not 0:22:24.996 --> 0:22:26.956 have been allowed to be published, and Pushkin could have 0:22:26.956 --> 0:22:30.356 actually been put in jail. Pizdel, which is kind of 0:22:30.396 --> 0:22:34.276 your female another regions. 0:22:34.476 --> 0:22:38.156 All of a sudden, you are resorting to euphemism he 0:22:38.276 --> 0:22:39.996