1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hey Revisions History listeners, Malcolm here. Before we get started, 2 00:00:22,556 --> 00:00:25,196 Speaker 1: I wanted to update you on a few things. First thing, 3 00:00:25,796 --> 00:00:31,236 Speaker 1: this August twenty fourth, the Revisionist History season begins in earnest, 4 00:00:31,836 --> 00:00:35,356 Speaker 1: eight old school episodes in a row, the little narrative 5 00:00:35,476 --> 00:00:39,116 Speaker 1: jewel boxes you've come to love. We've been feeding you 6 00:00:39,196 --> 00:00:41,596 Speaker 1: a little bits and pieces so far this season, but 7 00:00:41,756 --> 00:00:44,556 Speaker 1: this is the main event. The heart of it is 8 00:00:44,556 --> 00:00:46,996 Speaker 1: a six part series on guns and violence that I 9 00:00:47,036 --> 00:00:52,076 Speaker 1: think is my favorite thing we've ever done. Weird, moving, funny, heartbreaking. 10 00:00:52,556 --> 00:00:56,236 Speaker 1: So mark your calendar's August twenty fourth is when it 11 00:00:56,276 --> 00:00:58,836 Speaker 1: all happens. And by the way, if you want to 12 00:00:58,876 --> 00:01:01,716 Speaker 1: get that whole mini series early and binge it all 13 00:01:01,756 --> 00:01:04,796 Speaker 1: at once without ads, you can just by becoming a 14 00:01:04,836 --> 00:01:08,596 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus subscriber. In fact, just six ninety nine a 15 00:01:08,636 --> 00:01:11,676 Speaker 1: month or thirty nine ninety nine a year gets you 16 00:01:11,956 --> 00:01:15,756 Speaker 1: every one of the Pushkin shows early and ad free. 17 00:01:16,236 --> 00:01:19,156 Speaker 1: Just go to the Revisionist History showpage in Apple Podcasts 18 00:01:19,556 --> 00:01:24,316 Speaker 1: or Pushkin dot fm, slash plus to sign up. And 19 00:01:24,356 --> 00:01:27,276 Speaker 1: one laice thing. Speaking of things you should binge, the 20 00:01:27,356 --> 00:01:31,956 Speaker 1: latest season of our true crime masterpiece Lost Hills has dropped. 21 00:01:32,116 --> 00:01:35,316 Speaker 1: The new season explores a legacy of Malibu's dark prints 22 00:01:35,716 --> 00:01:39,516 Speaker 1: Mickey Dora. Mickey was a surfer known for his style, grace, 23 00:01:39,556 --> 00:01:42,916 Speaker 1: and aggression who ruled the Malibu Beaches from the nineteen 24 00:01:42,956 --> 00:01:47,276 Speaker 1: fifties to the nineteen seventies. Celebrated for his rebellious spirit, 25 00:01:47,596 --> 00:01:50,156 Speaker 1: he was also a con man who led the FBI 26 00:01:50,196 --> 00:01:52,996 Speaker 1: on a seven year man hunt around the world. Believe me, 27 00:01:53,316 --> 00:01:55,836 Speaker 1: this is a show worth a listen, so sign up 28 00:01:55,876 --> 00:02:02,036 Speaker 1: for Pushkin Plus and you can binge this one too. Hello, 29 00:02:02,036 --> 00:02:05,636 Speaker 1: Hello everyone, Malcolm Babble here. I'm here in the studio 30 00:02:05,916 --> 00:02:10,996 Speaker 1: with Marya Konikova, the revisionist history ombusman who's come by 31 00:02:11,396 --> 00:02:15,556 Speaker 1: for the second time to do a little bit of 32 00:02:15,996 --> 00:02:19,556 Speaker 1: correction and instruction and tell me what's gone right and 33 00:02:19,636 --> 00:02:22,116 Speaker 1: wrong in her own mind with our season so far. 34 00:02:22,276 --> 00:02:23,236 Speaker 1: Were you welcome? 35 00:02:23,556 --> 00:02:25,996 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me, Malcolm. It is always 36 00:02:26,036 --> 00:02:28,516 Speaker 2: a pleasure, although I have to say that in your 37 00:02:28,596 --> 00:02:32,356 Speaker 2: last few episodes, I have felt a little bit personally 38 00:02:32,476 --> 00:02:35,956 Speaker 2: under attack. I mean, we had the Monk Debates, which 39 00:02:36,996 --> 00:02:40,196 Speaker 2: was an absolutely fascinating episode to me, and I'll say 40 00:02:40,196 --> 00:02:42,196 Speaker 2: a little bit about it in a second, but I 41 00:02:42,236 --> 00:02:43,756 Speaker 2: don't know if you know that. I used to be 42 00:02:43,796 --> 00:02:47,676 Speaker 2: a debater, and I debated for multiple years at a 43 00:02:47,716 --> 00:02:49,196 Speaker 2: pretty high level in high school. 44 00:02:49,196 --> 00:02:53,396 Speaker 1: In high school, yes, and wait and were you successful? 45 00:02:53,916 --> 00:02:57,196 Speaker 2: I was successful? But then I stopped debating, so I 46 00:02:57,236 --> 00:03:00,356 Speaker 2: did not debate in college, and I stopped debating at 47 00:03:00,356 --> 00:03:02,436 Speaker 2: the point where you would have gone to like nationals 48 00:03:02,596 --> 00:03:05,236 Speaker 2: and like really had to focus a lot of time 49 00:03:05,276 --> 00:03:07,836 Speaker 2: on it, because at first I got into it as 50 00:03:07,876 --> 00:03:12,516 Speaker 2: a way of clarifying my thinking, and I just thought 51 00:03:12,516 --> 00:03:16,196 Speaker 2: it was amazing when I watched people do this, like, Wow, 52 00:03:16,236 --> 00:03:18,756 Speaker 2: they can synthesize so much information, they can argue all 53 00:03:18,796 --> 00:03:22,676 Speaker 2: these points. And I'm someone who really loves to argue 54 00:03:22,676 --> 00:03:25,396 Speaker 2: out both sides of something to figure out, you know 55 00:03:26,556 --> 00:03:29,996 Speaker 2: what do I think you know what's important here? And 56 00:03:30,356 --> 00:03:32,076 Speaker 2: so I thought debate would help me with that, and 57 00:03:32,116 --> 00:03:35,756 Speaker 2: it did. But there came a point where it became formulaic, 58 00:03:35,756 --> 00:03:37,676 Speaker 2: where I figured out how to do it, and then 59 00:03:37,716 --> 00:03:40,756 Speaker 2: I lost interest in it because I realized that it 60 00:03:40,796 --> 00:03:44,796 Speaker 2: wasn't actually about thinking deeply. It was much more about 61 00:03:44,996 --> 00:03:48,836 Speaker 2: rhetorical defness technique technique exactly. 62 00:03:48,916 --> 00:03:51,036 Speaker 1: It is heavy. That's that was the great takeaway for 63 00:03:51,116 --> 00:03:54,436 Speaker 1: me in doing this because I never I debated very 64 00:03:54,476 --> 00:03:57,596 Speaker 1: casually in high school once or twice, and we did 65 00:03:57,676 --> 00:04:00,396 Speaker 1: parliamentary debating where hackling was allowed. 66 00:04:00,596 --> 00:04:02,636 Speaker 2: And so that's amazing. We did not have heckling. 67 00:04:02,716 --> 00:04:04,916 Speaker 1: We had hackling because you have hackling in parliament, real 68 00:04:04,956 --> 00:04:05,876 Speaker 1: parmentary systems. 69 00:04:06,356 --> 00:04:07,716 Speaker 2: Oh, Parliament's a shit show. 70 00:04:07,756 --> 00:04:10,196 Speaker 1: Oh yeah. So when we did debating, we just were 71 00:04:10,196 --> 00:04:12,156 Speaker 1: focused on the hackling. That's what you know. 72 00:04:12,236 --> 00:04:14,196 Speaker 2: I mean, of course that sounds so fun. So I missed, 73 00:04:14,196 --> 00:04:16,756 Speaker 2: I'd probably still be debating, and that's that's what our 74 00:04:16,756 --> 00:04:19,716 Speaker 2: debate was. But your debate, the Monk Debates, was not 75 00:04:19,756 --> 00:04:20,436 Speaker 2: about heckling. 76 00:04:20,556 --> 00:04:21,916 Speaker 1: No, no, it was. 77 00:04:22,036 --> 00:04:24,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a very different format. So for people 78 00:04:24,396 --> 00:04:26,836 Speaker 2: who didn't listen to the episode or need a little 79 00:04:26,836 --> 00:04:30,356 Speaker 2: bit of a refresher, you were arguing a resolution, and 80 00:04:30,396 --> 00:04:34,396 Speaker 2: the resolution was don't trust mainstream media, and you were 81 00:04:34,436 --> 00:04:37,316 Speaker 2: against this. You were on a team with Michelle Goldberg, 82 00:04:37,636 --> 00:04:42,796 Speaker 2: and you were debating against Matt Taibi and Douglas Murray. 83 00:04:43,116 --> 00:04:45,836 Speaker 2: And Douglas Murray, as I found out, and I saw 84 00:04:46,276 --> 00:04:49,556 Speaker 2: as did other people who you spoke with after that, 85 00:04:49,636 --> 00:04:54,356 Speaker 2: he's a debater and and so he's yeah, he's so 86 00:04:54,396 --> 00:04:56,716 Speaker 2: we're going to spoil it spoiler alert, how did you do? 87 00:04:56,836 --> 00:05:00,636 Speaker 1: Malcolm got destroyed? I mean it was humiliation on the 88 00:05:00,716 --> 00:05:04,036 Speaker 1: level to my social media to this day is just 89 00:05:04,036 --> 00:05:06,916 Speaker 1: filled people gloating about how I got my hat handed 90 00:05:06,916 --> 00:05:07,156 Speaker 1: to me. 91 00:05:07,796 --> 00:05:09,596 Speaker 2: You did, you did? But what I act act like? 92 00:05:09,716 --> 00:05:12,636 Speaker 2: I loved that after that happened, you went to learn 93 00:05:12,676 --> 00:05:15,356 Speaker 2: to figure out what you did wrong, and so I 94 00:05:15,396 --> 00:05:17,636 Speaker 2: loved kind of the second part of the episode where 95 00:05:17,636 --> 00:05:20,916 Speaker 2: we get to hear professionals talk about, you know, what 96 00:05:20,996 --> 00:05:24,436 Speaker 2: you could have done, what you didn't do, and you 97 00:05:24,476 --> 00:05:25,676 Speaker 2: went to learn how to debate. 98 00:05:26,076 --> 00:05:30,356 Speaker 1: My complete ignorance of this debating technique, yeah, is what 99 00:05:31,116 --> 00:05:34,236 Speaker 1: killed me. That and also the fact that you know, 100 00:05:34,876 --> 00:05:38,636 Speaker 1: I was excessively self confident going into the and not 101 00:05:38,796 --> 00:05:40,876 Speaker 1: self confident in my abilities to debate so much as 102 00:05:41,076 --> 00:05:44,036 Speaker 1: self confident in my in the position I was arguing. 103 00:05:44,276 --> 00:05:46,996 Speaker 1: I just didn't think that there were lots of people 104 00:05:47,036 --> 00:05:49,956 Speaker 1: out there, particularly in Canada, who would believe that you 105 00:05:49,956 --> 00:05:52,676 Speaker 1: shouldn't trust the mainstream media. I just couldn't get I 106 00:05:52,756 --> 00:05:53,676 Speaker 1: just thought we're going to win. 107 00:05:54,116 --> 00:05:57,876 Speaker 2: You know, I loved the excerpts that you chose for 108 00:05:57,916 --> 00:06:00,756 Speaker 2: the podcast, because you know, you really showed some of 109 00:06:00,796 --> 00:06:03,556 Speaker 2: the issues, which is I actually I don't think this 110 00:06:03,676 --> 00:06:06,316 Speaker 2: was a bad thing because you felt strongly about your topic, right, 111 00:06:06,516 --> 00:06:09,636 Speaker 2: you didn't even think that it was possible to argue 112 00:06:09,636 --> 00:06:12,596 Speaker 2: the other side because I mean, as you just said yourself, 113 00:06:12,636 --> 00:06:15,356 Speaker 2: like who you have to be insane to not trust 114 00:06:15,436 --> 00:06:18,156 Speaker 2: mainstream media to think that the alternative is better. And 115 00:06:18,196 --> 00:06:20,996 Speaker 2: so you brought a lot of emotion to it, which 116 00:06:21,276 --> 00:06:23,076 Speaker 2: I think is good from a human point of view, 117 00:06:23,076 --> 00:06:25,796 Speaker 2: but from a debating point of view is not necessarily 118 00:06:25,836 --> 00:06:29,996 Speaker 2: ideal and can cloud your ability to hear the other 119 00:06:30,036 --> 00:06:33,556 Speaker 2: side's arguments, what they're actually saying, whether they're twisting your words, 120 00:06:33,596 --> 00:06:38,436 Speaker 2: whether they're twisting the actual premise of the debate. Yeah, 121 00:06:38,476 --> 00:06:42,276 Speaker 2: and that's I think where you got got so to speak. 122 00:06:42,876 --> 00:06:46,316 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny because I'm not normally I'm not normally 123 00:06:46,316 --> 00:06:50,676 Speaker 1: someone who does rise to debate, and I'm not normally 124 00:06:50,676 --> 00:06:54,316 Speaker 1: someone who's terribly emotion I don't really get angry much 125 00:06:54,436 --> 00:06:57,556 Speaker 1: or but in that there was something about that context 126 00:06:57,636 --> 00:07:01,356 Speaker 1: that just like I got pissed off about halfway through, Yeah, 127 00:07:01,396 --> 00:07:03,156 Speaker 1: and I just couldn't keep it in. 128 00:07:03,556 --> 00:07:06,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you could tell that you were pissed. 129 00:07:06,956 --> 00:07:11,596 Speaker 1: I really think that Douglas Murray loathsome all right. 130 00:07:11,436 --> 00:07:14,116 Speaker 2: All right, well we'll just we'll have that on the record. 131 00:07:15,756 --> 00:07:19,956 Speaker 2: But that gets to kind of the psychological heart of it, though, 132 00:07:19,996 --> 00:07:21,876 Speaker 2: because what we know is as soon as he presses 133 00:07:21,876 --> 00:07:25,036 Speaker 2: that button and you actually become enraged and you become emotional, 134 00:07:25,716 --> 00:07:29,716 Speaker 2: your logic goes down a little bit, your ability to 135 00:07:29,756 --> 00:07:33,236 Speaker 2: process information goes down a little bit, and your ability 136 00:07:33,276 --> 00:07:36,916 Speaker 2: to listen goes down a little bit. That's why when 137 00:07:36,956 --> 00:07:38,676 Speaker 2: we're in an argument, we want to be the one 138 00:07:38,716 --> 00:07:40,636 Speaker 2: who does not get emotional, right. You want to be 139 00:07:40,636 --> 00:07:42,156 Speaker 2: the one who steps back. You want to be the 140 00:07:42,156 --> 00:07:44,916 Speaker 2: one who says, Okay, you know, let's take five minutes. Obviously, 141 00:07:44,956 --> 00:07:47,916 Speaker 2: when you're on stage in front of an audience with 142 00:07:47,956 --> 00:07:50,516 Speaker 2: someone you find loathsome, you can't say, okay, let's pause 143 00:07:50,556 --> 00:07:52,756 Speaker 2: this for five minutes and take a step back. But 144 00:07:52,836 --> 00:07:55,796 Speaker 2: it actually made me think some of the criticism that 145 00:07:56,236 --> 00:07:59,916 Speaker 2: you got was not listening well. And it made me think, 146 00:08:00,956 --> 00:08:02,916 Speaker 2: and this gets to the heart of why I quit 147 00:08:02,956 --> 00:08:06,876 Speaker 2: debate of something that I learned from con artists. So 148 00:08:07,036 --> 00:08:09,116 Speaker 2: a few books back, I wrote a book about con artists, 149 00:08:09,156 --> 00:08:11,236 Speaker 2: and I spent multiple years with con artists and I 150 00:08:11,316 --> 00:08:14,756 Speaker 2: learned all of these fascinating histories, and therefore and con 151 00:08:14,836 --> 00:08:19,916 Speaker 2: artist totally fascinating character. Victor Lustig. I don't know if 152 00:08:19,916 --> 00:08:22,596 Speaker 2: you've heard of him. He styled himself as Count Lustig, 153 00:08:22,636 --> 00:08:25,196 Speaker 2: even though he was not a count. This was early 154 00:08:25,276 --> 00:08:29,996 Speaker 2: twentieth century. So Victor Lustig is most famous for selling 155 00:08:30,156 --> 00:08:33,796 Speaker 2: the Eiffel Tower not once, but twice to two different 156 00:08:33,836 --> 00:08:35,916 Speaker 2: groups of investors. So he was very good at what 157 00:08:35,996 --> 00:08:38,516 Speaker 2: he did. And he wrote something called the Ten Commandments 158 00:08:38,556 --> 00:08:42,716 Speaker 2: of con Artists. And one of those commandments is something 159 00:08:42,756 --> 00:08:45,676 Speaker 2: that just came to mind immediately, which is that a 160 00:08:45,716 --> 00:08:48,156 Speaker 2: con artist isn't a good talker. A con artist is 161 00:08:48,196 --> 00:08:51,836 Speaker 2: a good listener. And if you think, if you think 162 00:08:51,876 --> 00:08:55,516 Speaker 2: about what that means, right, listening to the other person 163 00:08:55,796 --> 00:08:58,196 Speaker 2: is how you get them, and it's how you trick them, 164 00:08:58,436 --> 00:09:02,236 Speaker 2: is how you take advantage of them. And so it 165 00:09:02,396 --> 00:09:05,276 Speaker 2: actually that's what came to mind when I was listening 166 00:09:05,316 --> 00:09:08,116 Speaker 2: to this debate, and I thought, wait, a debate is 167 00:09:08,116 --> 00:09:10,556 Speaker 2: a con in lot of ways. 168 00:09:10,396 --> 00:09:10,996 Speaker 1: It's interesting. 169 00:09:11,076 --> 00:09:13,796 Speaker 2: It's kind of a way to you know, if you're 170 00:09:13,836 --> 00:09:16,756 Speaker 2: the better listener, you're actually going to be the better talker, 171 00:09:16,916 --> 00:09:19,716 Speaker 2: and you're going to be able to take advantage because 172 00:09:19,796 --> 00:09:22,956 Speaker 2: con artists are great talkers, right, they're silver tongued, but 173 00:09:23,116 --> 00:09:24,316 Speaker 2: listening is at the heart of it. 174 00:09:24,796 --> 00:09:26,876 Speaker 1: But here's the other thing I was thinking about, you know, 175 00:09:26,876 --> 00:09:30,996 Speaker 1: with respect to debating, the second way in which debating 176 00:09:31,116 --> 00:09:34,156 Speaker 1: is kind of a not a trick, but oh it's 177 00:09:34,156 --> 00:09:36,636 Speaker 1: a trick, well a version of a trick, and that 178 00:09:36,796 --> 00:09:42,716 Speaker 1: is that I realized that my my normal way of 179 00:09:42,756 --> 00:09:46,956 Speaker 1: going about the world is I take in information and 180 00:09:47,156 --> 00:09:51,276 Speaker 1: don't respond immediately. I tend to turn things over for 181 00:09:51,316 --> 00:09:54,076 Speaker 1: a long time and decide how I feel a long 182 00:09:54,836 --> 00:09:58,516 Speaker 1: time later, might be weeks later, might be months later. 183 00:09:58,636 --> 00:10:01,876 Speaker 1: I'm someone who kind of I'm a slow processor, and 184 00:10:02,476 --> 00:10:06,156 Speaker 1: so processing has been very useful for me. The debate 185 00:10:06,636 --> 00:10:11,076 Speaker 1: form does not advantage the slow processor. I was in 186 00:10:11,076 --> 00:10:13,116 Speaker 1: a situation orlves and I had to do in real 187 00:10:13,156 --> 00:10:15,316 Speaker 1: time respond to people. I can't do that. Yeah, I 188 00:10:15,596 --> 00:10:18,956 Speaker 1: have a kind of and Douglas Murray a great debater. 189 00:10:19,396 --> 00:10:23,036 Speaker 1: His great advantage is his fluidity. Right, It's just like 190 00:10:23,476 --> 00:10:27,636 Speaker 1: it comes in one ear and boomy as a response, 191 00:10:28,156 --> 00:10:30,596 Speaker 1: and I'm still thinking about it months later. I'm still 192 00:10:30,596 --> 00:10:32,236 Speaker 1: thinking about what should I have said? 193 00:10:32,236 --> 00:10:35,396 Speaker 2: You knowing that, yeah, and it's it's a skill. It's 194 00:10:35,396 --> 00:10:37,356 Speaker 2: a skill, and that's you know, at the end of 195 00:10:37,396 --> 00:10:40,676 Speaker 2: the day, that's what I came away with That debate 196 00:10:40,836 --> 00:10:45,316 Speaker 2: teaches you very useful skills of fluency and of conning. 197 00:10:45,876 --> 00:10:48,396 Speaker 1: Yeah. I want to an additional point about this, least 198 00:10:48,476 --> 00:10:51,396 Speaker 1: yar when I went and hung out with the Brooklyn 199 00:10:51,476 --> 00:10:53,956 Speaker 1: Debate League the other there were my tutors and had 200 00:10:53,996 --> 00:10:57,436 Speaker 1: to be a better debater. The one transcendent value in 201 00:10:57,556 --> 00:11:01,596 Speaker 1: running to debate. Remember that the kids that they at 202 00:11:01,636 --> 00:11:05,036 Speaker 1: the Brooklyn Debate League, they they're most concerned with, many 203 00:11:05,076 --> 00:11:08,196 Speaker 1: of them are from less privileged backgrounds. Right, you're talking 204 00:11:08,196 --> 00:11:11,636 Speaker 1: about kids from poor areas of Brooklyn. You know what 205 00:11:11,916 --> 00:11:17,356 Speaker 1: debating allows is for these kids to be heard on 206 00:11:17,436 --> 00:11:20,316 Speaker 1: subjects where they would were normally no one would ever 207 00:11:20,356 --> 00:11:24,076 Speaker 1: pay them the suddest attention. So you tell a fifteen 208 00:11:24,116 --> 00:11:29,396 Speaker 1: year old kid from Bushwick, we're going to debate immigration policy, 209 00:11:29,756 --> 00:11:32,276 Speaker 1: and not only do they get to talk about immigration 210 00:11:32,276 --> 00:11:34,396 Speaker 1: policy and people have to listen, but it allows them 211 00:11:34,396 --> 00:11:39,036 Speaker 1: to almost have another identity. And these are kids who 212 00:11:39,036 --> 00:11:41,476 Speaker 1: never have a chance to have another identity. Yeah, right, 213 00:11:41,716 --> 00:11:45,036 Speaker 1: and that's what is an incredible gift. That's being given 214 00:11:45,036 --> 00:11:47,756 Speaker 1: to them by allowing them to stand up and inhabit 215 00:11:48,356 --> 00:11:51,636 Speaker 1: a way of thinking or a set of opinions that 216 00:11:52,076 --> 00:11:53,836 Speaker 1: would otherwise be denied to them. 217 00:11:54,076 --> 00:11:56,556 Speaker 2: Now that's amazing, and I think that that is something 218 00:11:56,596 --> 00:11:59,636 Speaker 2: that it's actually incredibly special about debates. So let's just 219 00:11:59,716 --> 00:12:02,796 Speaker 2: caveat and put that as an asterisk that it can 220 00:12:02,876 --> 00:12:06,396 Speaker 2: give you tremendous skills, It can give you confidence, and 221 00:12:06,476 --> 00:12:08,516 Speaker 2: especially you know, someone like me. You know, I didn't 222 00:12:08,556 --> 00:12:11,236 Speaker 2: speak English when I came here as an immigrant, didn't 223 00:12:11,276 --> 00:12:13,756 Speaker 2: fit in very well, and that was also a way 224 00:12:13,796 --> 00:12:14,916 Speaker 2: for me to fit in at first. 225 00:12:15,196 --> 00:12:15,716 Speaker 1: Yeah. 226 00:12:16,316 --> 00:12:20,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, So there was actually one listener email that came 227 00:12:20,876 --> 00:12:23,156 Speaker 2: in which actually raises some of the things we've been 228 00:12:23,156 --> 00:12:27,076 Speaker 2: talking about. So here's what Jonathan writes, So, what if 229 00:12:27,076 --> 00:12:29,436 Speaker 2: we learn to listen to each other in debates. I've 230 00:12:29,436 --> 00:12:32,356 Speaker 2: always struggled with the benefits of any debate. Does winning 231 00:12:32,396 --> 00:12:34,916 Speaker 2: a debate matter anymore to the well being of society 232 00:12:34,956 --> 00:12:38,436 Speaker 2: as your favorite NBA team winning a game matters? Does 233 00:12:38,476 --> 00:12:41,716 Speaker 2: a society full of expert debaters achieve something our current 234 00:12:41,796 --> 00:12:45,236 Speaker 2: society cannot? And I think this was actually, you know, 235 00:12:45,356 --> 00:12:48,316 Speaker 2: a really important question and something that we've been touching 236 00:12:48,316 --> 00:12:51,796 Speaker 2: on because while I think that you know, debate has 237 00:12:51,836 --> 00:12:54,036 Speaker 2: given me a lot of positives, and as you say, 238 00:12:54,116 --> 00:12:56,596 Speaker 2: kind of this group in Brooklyn, it's definitely giving them 239 00:12:56,636 --> 00:13:00,716 Speaker 2: a lot those skills of you know, fluidity and being 240 00:13:00,756 --> 00:13:04,276 Speaker 2: silver tongued are not necessarily I think beneficial. 241 00:13:05,716 --> 00:13:10,916 Speaker 1: Well, the questions are there sort of spillover effects, Like listening. 242 00:13:12,676 --> 00:13:15,676 Speaker 1: Being someone who learns to pay attention carefully to what 243 00:13:15,716 --> 00:13:18,956 Speaker 1: people are saying is a really important skill that you 244 00:13:18,996 --> 00:13:23,076 Speaker 1: can only gain through practice. And so to the extent 245 00:13:23,116 --> 00:13:26,596 Speaker 1: that debating is really listening practice, then I think it's 246 00:13:26,636 --> 00:13:31,116 Speaker 1: really useful. A lot of what's difficult about listening, and 247 00:13:31,196 --> 00:13:33,356 Speaker 1: why I think we think of it as an imperiled skill, 248 00:13:33,476 --> 00:13:38,156 Speaker 1: is that listening is about the negation of the self. Right, 249 00:13:38,556 --> 00:13:42,836 Speaker 1: I is not important. It's you who are important, And 250 00:13:43,476 --> 00:13:46,796 Speaker 1: there's so much privileging of I these days. I've always 251 00:13:46,836 --> 00:13:49,876 Speaker 1: wanted to, you know, I have a little alternate fantasy 252 00:13:49,916 --> 00:13:52,356 Speaker 1: where I teach an English class for a year, and 253 00:13:52,596 --> 00:13:56,316 Speaker 1: I would like in my English class. I don't know 254 00:13:56,316 --> 00:13:58,956 Speaker 1: if you'd want to, but one of the rules I 255 00:13:58,956 --> 00:14:00,436 Speaker 1: would have is we're going to write a series of 256 00:14:00,436 --> 00:14:02,836 Speaker 1: things over the course of the next year. And my 257 00:14:02,996 --> 00:14:07,676 Speaker 1: rule is you can never ever use the word I 258 00:14:07,756 --> 00:14:11,076 Speaker 1: in anything you write for me, right, No eyes. If 259 00:14:11,076 --> 00:14:14,356 Speaker 1: you if I see an eye referring to yourself in 260 00:14:14,396 --> 00:14:17,716 Speaker 1: anything you write, you fail. Right, And just that I 261 00:14:17,716 --> 00:14:21,276 Speaker 1: feel like the kind of the discipline of forcing someone 262 00:14:21,356 --> 00:14:25,796 Speaker 1: to always be talking about the other and to distance 263 00:14:25,836 --> 00:14:30,676 Speaker 1: themselves from their own perspective, it would just be incredibly useful. 264 00:14:30,876 --> 00:14:33,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the New Yorker would be very happy that 265 00:14:33,276 --> 00:14:35,836 Speaker 2: they have a whole generation of writers who don't use eye. 266 00:14:35,996 --> 00:14:37,756 Speaker 1: I tried so hard for so long when I was 267 00:14:37,796 --> 00:14:40,276 Speaker 1: a New York writer not to fall into the eye trap, 268 00:14:40,876 --> 00:14:44,476 Speaker 1: and then you know, eventually you're like, yive in he's. 269 00:14:44,396 --> 00:14:48,356 Speaker 2: Like speaking to this journalist. I know. It's so disingenuous. 270 00:14:48,436 --> 00:14:51,916 Speaker 1: I love and the English gout around this by saying one, yes, 271 00:14:52,036 --> 00:14:55,476 Speaker 1: one listens to one's perspective. 272 00:14:54,956 --> 00:14:57,236 Speaker 2: On my and what does one think about this? 273 00:14:57,396 --> 00:14:58,876 Speaker 1: The problem is that you get you get into the 274 00:14:58,956 --> 00:15:01,956 Speaker 1: multiple one then and you once you commit to using 275 00:15:01,956 --> 00:15:04,836 Speaker 1: one once you have to keep and you're like, oh, please, 276 00:15:05,036 --> 00:15:06,476 Speaker 1: just stop it. It's really annoying. 277 00:15:06,796 --> 00:15:08,636 Speaker 2: And it's not just annoying, it makes it difficult to 278 00:15:08,676 --> 00:15:11,636 Speaker 2: understand because it's actually unclear. 279 00:15:11,636 --> 00:15:15,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, let's take a quick break. 280 00:15:20,396 --> 00:15:22,396 Speaker 2: The second thing I wanted to talk to you about 281 00:15:22,396 --> 00:15:26,756 Speaker 2: today is the importance of precise language, even if that 282 00:15:26,836 --> 00:15:30,396 Speaker 2: language might make you uncomfortable, even if that language might 283 00:15:30,436 --> 00:15:34,236 Speaker 2: not be nice so to speak, but the importance of 284 00:15:34,276 --> 00:15:39,676 Speaker 2: saying precisely what you mean. And I actually started laughing 285 00:15:39,756 --> 00:15:43,836 Speaker 2: out loud at this listener email that we got. So 286 00:15:44,596 --> 00:15:47,196 Speaker 2: I'm taking the liberty of writing as an admirer of 287 00:15:47,236 --> 00:15:50,676 Speaker 2: Malcolm Gladwell's work to share my humble opinion on the 288 00:15:50,756 --> 00:15:54,516 Speaker 2: use of swear words and vulgar language in your content. 289 00:15:55,196 --> 00:15:57,636 Speaker 2: There is no doubt their use in proliferation has become 290 00:15:57,676 --> 00:16:00,516 Speaker 2: part of the zeitgeist. It seems people feel that, even 291 00:16:00,556 --> 00:16:04,116 Speaker 2: informal context, they lend an air of cool and nonchalance, 292 00:16:04,636 --> 00:16:07,716 Speaker 2: helping them avoid coming across as stuffy and staid in 293 00:16:07,756 --> 00:16:10,236 Speaker 2: a culture where everyone eques really wants to be hip. 294 00:16:10,796 --> 00:16:13,476 Speaker 2: What they don't realize is at the same time they 295 00:16:13,636 --> 00:16:16,596 Speaker 2: cheapen the language and give it an air of tawdriness. 296 00:16:16,956 --> 00:16:20,156 Speaker 2: It's the opposite of classy and also reflects laziness on 297 00:16:20,196 --> 00:16:23,676 Speaker 2: the part of the writer. I hardly doubt Pushkin would 298 00:16:23,716 --> 00:16:27,956 Speaker 2: have used such curse words in his writing. And this 299 00:16:28,036 --> 00:16:32,636 Speaker 2: is where I just lost my shit, because this is 300 00:16:32,676 --> 00:16:35,796 Speaker 2: someone who has never read a word of Pushkin. Pushkin 301 00:16:36,116 --> 00:16:40,356 Speaker 2: is the most foul mouthed poet just I think, in 302 00:16:40,436 --> 00:16:43,516 Speaker 2: Russian history, and this is among other foul mouthed poets. 303 00:16:43,636 --> 00:16:47,796 Speaker 2: There is profanity in Russian language, and it's not just profanity, 304 00:16:47,916 --> 00:16:51,996 Speaker 2: it is like it is profane profanity and your namesake company, 305 00:16:52,436 --> 00:16:55,356 Speaker 2: you know, Pushkin, Yeah, is named for someone who was 306 00:16:55,836 --> 00:17:01,476 Speaker 2: so enamored with precision in words, with using the right word, 307 00:17:01,996 --> 00:17:05,276 Speaker 2: and he would actually he has an entire poem that 308 00:17:05,396 --> 00:17:08,876 Speaker 2: laughs at censorship and at people being snooty about language. 309 00:17:09,116 --> 00:17:10,916 Speaker 2: I'm not going to actually read that poem, but I 310 00:17:10,996 --> 00:17:15,276 Speaker 2: was going to read a few a few Pushkin lines. 311 00:17:15,956 --> 00:17:18,076 Speaker 2: So let me just give this gentleman a taste of 312 00:17:18,116 --> 00:17:23,236 Speaker 2: what Pushkin's writing is. Actually. Like, there's one from a 313 00:17:23,276 --> 00:17:27,036 Speaker 2: poem which is called the Wagon of Life Tide. So 314 00:17:27,076 --> 00:17:29,636 Speaker 2: I'm actually going to just read this lovely for just 315 00:17:29,676 --> 00:17:32,476 Speaker 2: four lines in Russian, and then we'll do a translation. 316 00:17:33,276 --> 00:17:44,036 Speaker 2: Soutra Sadamites, pashol youbon mites. Russian is such a beautiful 317 00:17:44,636 --> 00:17:47,836 Speaker 2: melodic language. Yes, So here's this is this is just 318 00:17:47,916 --> 00:17:50,916 Speaker 2: my rough translation, in the morning, we get into this car, 319 00:17:51,036 --> 00:17:54,556 Speaker 2: which is, you know, this wagon of life. We are 320 00:17:54,636 --> 00:17:58,076 Speaker 2: happy to challenge our brains. Literally it says break our heads, 321 00:17:58,116 --> 00:18:03,156 Speaker 2: but that's not idiomatic. So and detesting laziness and leisure. 322 00:18:03,676 --> 00:18:08,236 Speaker 2: We yell get moving. Fucking mother, but it's not fucking 323 00:18:08,276 --> 00:18:11,396 Speaker 2: mother is the literal translation, but that does not even 324 00:18:12,156 --> 00:18:16,796 Speaker 2: begin to describe it. So in Russian, the word to 325 00:18:16,956 --> 00:18:24,316 Speaker 2: fuck and all of its permutations is such an incredibly 326 00:18:24,356 --> 00:18:27,316 Speaker 2: powerful thing that So I was talking to my mom 327 00:18:27,716 --> 00:18:30,156 Speaker 2: in preparation for this episode and asked her, you know, 328 00:18:30,196 --> 00:18:32,316 Speaker 2: how would she describe it? She said, well, you could 329 00:18:32,356 --> 00:18:36,076 Speaker 2: say that saying fucking English would be like, you know, 330 00:18:36,356 --> 00:18:40,396 Speaker 2: a politician just giving a talk in front of an audience, 331 00:18:40,436 --> 00:18:42,836 Speaker 2: compared to what something like you be on the mind 332 00:18:42,916 --> 00:18:44,556 Speaker 2: sounds like in Russian. 333 00:18:44,596 --> 00:18:45,356 Speaker 1: I mean people can. 334 00:18:45,276 --> 00:18:47,636 Speaker 2: Get killed for saying that to someone else. It's a 335 00:18:47,756 --> 00:18:50,716 Speaker 2: very yeah, I mean you can. There's there's actually a 336 00:18:50,756 --> 00:18:54,996 Speaker 2: history of you know, people bringing fists to faces when 337 00:18:55,036 --> 00:18:57,796 Speaker 2: you when you use phrasing like that, because you know, 338 00:18:57,836 --> 00:19:00,516 Speaker 2: it's incredibly incredibly powerful. 339 00:19:00,516 --> 00:19:02,836 Speaker 1: But your voice changes when you speak Russian, and this 340 00:19:02,996 --> 00:19:05,756 Speaker 1: really interesting way. I'm falling in love with you speaking 341 00:19:05,796 --> 00:19:07,756 Speaker 1: Russian way. 342 00:19:06,476 --> 00:19:07,956 Speaker 2: That's very funny. 343 00:19:08,156 --> 00:19:10,436 Speaker 1: Can we do an episode where you just speaking Russian? 344 00:19:10,556 --> 00:19:10,716 Speaker 3: Yeah? 345 00:19:10,716 --> 00:19:14,796 Speaker 2: Absolutely, let's do it. Let's do it. It's not just me, 346 00:19:14,956 --> 00:19:18,116 Speaker 2: who's who thinks that? This is so incredibly important. If 347 00:19:18,116 --> 00:19:21,396 Speaker 2: you look at you know, Russian history, the use of 348 00:19:21,436 --> 00:19:25,676 Speaker 2: swearing is an incredibly important part of the language, part 349 00:19:25,676 --> 00:19:28,956 Speaker 2: of expression, part of kind of communicating clearly, and in fact, 350 00:19:28,996 --> 00:19:33,596 Speaker 2: Dostoyevsky wrote back in eighteen seventy three about how the 351 00:19:33,716 --> 00:19:39,196 Speaker 2: single word khui, which means prick, dick, but it's once 352 00:19:39,236 --> 00:19:42,356 Speaker 2: again it's you know, both prick and dick and cock like, 353 00:19:42,396 --> 00:19:46,716 Speaker 2: all of those words are not not quite right. But 354 00:19:47,196 --> 00:19:50,916 Speaker 2: the male sexual organ, how you could basically describe everything 355 00:19:50,996 --> 00:19:53,236 Speaker 2: and every single emotion in the Russian language with that 356 00:19:53,276 --> 00:19:56,116 Speaker 2: one word, and his permutations, and how he thought that 357 00:19:56,196 --> 00:20:00,636 Speaker 2: it was just awful that because of censorship he couldn't 358 00:20:00,756 --> 00:20:04,116 Speaker 2: actually use it, and so he has just this whole 359 00:20:04,276 --> 00:20:06,596 Speaker 2: big thing on it. And this is Dustoyevsky. Ye, so 360 00:20:06,676 --> 00:20:09,076 Speaker 2: if you had named your company Dustoyevsky instead of Pushkin, 361 00:20:09,596 --> 00:20:12,396 Speaker 2: he also would have been eyeboard. 362 00:20:12,516 --> 00:20:16,876 Speaker 1: Can I just venture a mild defense of our letter writer? 363 00:20:17,796 --> 00:20:18,556 Speaker 2: Yes, please go? 364 00:20:19,316 --> 00:20:23,396 Speaker 1: Which is I think that what the letter writer is 365 00:20:23,596 --> 00:20:30,996 Speaker 1: arguing against is sloppiness that sometimes people use profanity when 366 00:20:31,076 --> 00:20:37,316 Speaker 1: they can't be bothered to express themselves more articulately, more clearly, 367 00:20:37,356 --> 00:20:40,556 Speaker 1: more specifically, more and it was it becomes a kind 368 00:20:40,556 --> 00:20:46,836 Speaker 1: of crutch. But the careful and the choice use of profanity, 369 00:20:47,236 --> 00:20:50,956 Speaker 1: it can be very powerful and sometimes even beautiful. Absolutely, 370 00:20:51,556 --> 00:20:53,836 Speaker 1: And there are times I remember I had this conversation 371 00:20:53,916 --> 00:20:57,916 Speaker 1: with spending enough. A friend of my brothers is a 372 00:20:57,956 --> 00:21:00,516 Speaker 1: men and night pastor who is writing a book about 373 00:21:01,276 --> 00:21:04,156 Speaker 1: the use of profanity in the religious context, and he 374 00:21:04,236 --> 00:21:07,596 Speaker 1: told me the story about a woman whose sort of 375 00:21:07,596 --> 00:21:11,436 Speaker 1: life had called a series of incredible, terrible things had 376 00:21:11,436 --> 00:21:14,276 Speaker 1: happened to her, and she relates this to her friend, 377 00:21:14,436 --> 00:21:17,196 Speaker 1: and her friend, who was someone who would never in 378 00:21:17,196 --> 00:21:21,836 Speaker 1: a million years use a profanity, use of profanity, And 379 00:21:21,876 --> 00:21:27,236 Speaker 1: it was this incredibly emotionally important moment, because what the 380 00:21:27,276 --> 00:21:29,316 Speaker 1: woman who was suffering needed at that moment was someone 381 00:21:29,316 --> 00:21:32,876 Speaker 1: who understood the magnitude of what had happened to her. 382 00:21:33,156 --> 00:21:38,476 Speaker 1: And the only way for a very strict religious person 383 00:21:38,676 --> 00:21:43,276 Speaker 1: to express that was to swear, was to go into 384 00:21:43,316 --> 00:21:47,036 Speaker 1: forbidden territory, right, Like, that's really beautiful and I don't 385 00:21:47,076 --> 00:21:50,476 Speaker 1: think our letter writer would disagree with that kind of 386 00:21:50,916 --> 00:21:51,716 Speaker 1: use of profanity. 387 00:21:51,836 --> 00:21:54,116 Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know our letter writers seemed. 388 00:21:54,236 --> 00:21:55,596 Speaker 1: I'm just much more generous to her. 389 00:21:55,716 --> 00:21:58,996 Speaker 2: I'm not. I get so. One of the reasons I 390 00:21:59,036 --> 00:22:02,236 Speaker 2: get so riled up about this is the letter writer 391 00:22:02,356 --> 00:22:05,116 Speaker 2: has a lot in common with Latimer Putin, because back 392 00:22:05,156 --> 00:22:10,556 Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen putin an act a ban on using 393 00:22:10,636 --> 00:22:16,436 Speaker 2: the four base swear words in Russian in any sort 394 00:22:16,476 --> 00:22:19,676 Speaker 2: of cultural or artistic expression. So hui, which we already 395 00:22:19,716 --> 00:22:22,916 Speaker 2: talked about you butte, which was in the Pushkin poem, 396 00:22:23,036 --> 00:22:24,996 Speaker 2: so that poem would have been censored and would not 397 00:22:24,996 --> 00:22:26,956 Speaker 2: have been allowed to be published, and Pushkin could have 398 00:22:26,956 --> 00:22:30,356 Speaker 2: actually been put in jail. Pizdel, which is kind of 399 00:22:30,396 --> 00:22:34,276 Speaker 2: your female another regions. 400 00:22:34,476 --> 00:22:38,156 Speaker 1: All of a sudden, you are resorting to euphemism he 401 00:22:38,276 --> 00:22:39,996 Speaker 1: has stopped you in the previous ten. 402 00:22:39,876 --> 00:22:45,116 Speaker 2: Minutes, and which is slut, but normally you just use 403 00:22:45,156 --> 00:22:48,796 Speaker 2: it as you know, as a as a daily exclamation 404 00:22:49,036 --> 00:22:53,476 Speaker 2: in different permutations. So those four words are banned in 405 00:22:53,476 --> 00:22:55,676 Speaker 2: the Russian language. And this was around the same time 406 00:22:55,676 --> 00:22:58,676 Speaker 2: that he was, you know, enacting all the anti gay stuff, 407 00:22:59,556 --> 00:23:06,196 Speaker 2: and you know, it's a way of censoring expression ideas. 408 00:23:06,556 --> 00:23:08,836 Speaker 2: It's kind of like taking a hammer to it, right, 409 00:23:08,836 --> 00:23:12,756 Speaker 2: because those words. Something that my mom also always says 410 00:23:12,836 --> 00:23:15,076 Speaker 2: is there are really no bad words. It's just bad people. 411 00:23:15,796 --> 00:23:18,196 Speaker 2: And so by banning these words, you know, he's showing 412 00:23:18,236 --> 00:23:20,116 Speaker 2: that he's one of the bad people, because you can 413 00:23:20,196 --> 00:23:22,956 Speaker 2: hurt someone much more. Just like you said that using 414 00:23:23,316 --> 00:23:27,716 Speaker 2: swears judiciously can be beautiful and can just be very powerful. 415 00:23:28,196 --> 00:23:31,596 Speaker 2: You can hurt someone without swearing. You can you can 416 00:23:31,796 --> 00:23:36,836 Speaker 2: really just skewer them and just be absolutely vicious without 417 00:23:36,916 --> 00:23:39,836 Speaker 2: using a single bad word. Yeah, And it's all in 418 00:23:39,876 --> 00:23:42,556 Speaker 2: the intention, it's all in the person. It's all so 419 00:23:42,756 --> 00:23:46,236 Speaker 2: I the moment I see any kind of censorship, it's 420 00:23:46,316 --> 00:23:48,236 Speaker 2: kind of like you and the Monk debates, My emotions 421 00:23:48,236 --> 00:23:51,876 Speaker 2: start getting riled up and I start wanting to say no. 422 00:23:52,396 --> 00:23:56,476 Speaker 2: You know, I'm basically always against anyone who says you 423 00:23:56,516 --> 00:23:58,876 Speaker 2: should not use any some kind of language. 424 00:23:59,196 --> 00:24:03,476 Speaker 1: Yeah. 425 00:24:04,076 --> 00:24:07,876 Speaker 2: So, Malcolm, now that we've established the parameters of precise 426 00:24:08,036 --> 00:24:09,796 Speaker 2: language use, let's take a quick break. 427 00:24:22,836 --> 00:24:25,996 Speaker 1: All right, we're back now, Maria. As you know, we 428 00:24:26,116 --> 00:24:29,316 Speaker 1: gave Columbia University the first ever Pushkin Prize for the 429 00:24:29,356 --> 00:24:32,036 Speaker 1: way they screwed around with your data to get a 430 00:24:32,116 --> 00:24:35,036 Speaker 1: higher place on the US News rankings. We awarded them 431 00:24:35,036 --> 00:24:39,156 Speaker 1: the George Sandalis Memorial Pushkin Prize for egregiously deceptive self promotion, 432 00:24:40,076 --> 00:24:42,556 Speaker 1: and they were. It was all because a Columbia professor 433 00:24:42,636 --> 00:24:46,476 Speaker 1: named Michael Thaddeus found them out, and after he exposed 434 00:24:46,476 --> 00:24:50,636 Speaker 1: their shenanigans, they fell from number two to number eighteen. 435 00:24:50,756 --> 00:24:53,236 Speaker 2: It was a huge scandal, which is quite the fall 436 00:24:53,236 --> 00:24:53,756 Speaker 2: from grace. 437 00:24:53,876 --> 00:24:56,316 Speaker 1: It is quite the fall from grace. No one is 438 00:24:56,356 --> 00:24:58,836 Speaker 1: more obsessed with the US News rankings than me. No 439 00:24:58,876 --> 00:25:02,916 Speaker 1: one was more delighted to see Columbia tumble so far 440 00:25:02,956 --> 00:25:06,116 Speaker 1: and so fast. But I can see that for a 441 00:25:06,156 --> 00:25:08,356 Speaker 1: Columbia lum such as yourself, this could be a little 442 00:25:08,356 --> 00:25:10,596 Speaker 1: bit disconcerting. You didn't feel like your degree was in 443 00:25:10,636 --> 00:25:13,396 Speaker 1: some way devalued by learning that the school was eighteenth 444 00:25:13,396 --> 00:25:14,316 Speaker 1: as opposed to second. 445 00:25:14,596 --> 00:25:17,356 Speaker 2: No. No, because when I applied to Columbia, first of all, 446 00:25:17,356 --> 00:25:19,516 Speaker 2: it was grad school, so it's a little bit different. 447 00:25:20,676 --> 00:25:23,796 Speaker 2: But secondly, it was not number two because this was 448 00:25:23,876 --> 00:25:27,276 Speaker 2: pre manipulation. So I mean, I'm sure there was still manipulation, 449 00:25:27,596 --> 00:25:29,756 Speaker 2: but this was I started grad school in Columbia back 450 00:25:29,756 --> 00:25:31,396 Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight, so this. 451 00:25:31,396 --> 00:25:33,596 Speaker 1: Was the Oh, I think the manipulation may have started 452 00:25:33,636 --> 00:25:35,756 Speaker 1: by then. Okay, it's one thing we don't know right now. 453 00:25:35,836 --> 00:25:40,516 Speaker 1: Columbia has not come clean. Well, they've given us no 454 00:25:40,796 --> 00:25:43,636 Speaker 1: knowledge at all about the extent, and this is strength 455 00:25:43,676 --> 00:25:46,956 Speaker 1: of this conspiracy. But I think it's reasonable to assume 456 00:25:46,956 --> 00:25:49,596 Speaker 1: that it may well have started maybe in the nineties. 457 00:25:49,876 --> 00:25:51,516 Speaker 2: That's actually probably accurate. 458 00:25:52,196 --> 00:25:55,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the show we just did about it, I 459 00:25:55,276 --> 00:26:00,236 Speaker 1: asked Revisionist History's resident data scientist Lauren Lavelle to reconstruct 460 00:26:00,236 --> 00:26:03,556 Speaker 1: what Columbia did. But I also wanted to know, and 461 00:26:03,596 --> 00:26:06,036 Speaker 1: this is crucial, is there a way they could have 462 00:26:06,156 --> 00:26:10,036 Speaker 1: cheated so they wouldn't have gotten caught? In other words, 463 00:26:10,276 --> 00:26:11,876 Speaker 1: is there a way they could have climbed into the 464 00:26:11,876 --> 00:26:17,076 Speaker 1: top ten without having run any risk of exposure? And 465 00:26:17,156 --> 00:26:19,996 Speaker 1: so Lauren sat down and went through the data and 466 00:26:20,516 --> 00:26:23,636 Speaker 1: figured out a strategy to make this happen. 467 00:26:24,756 --> 00:26:27,076 Speaker 3: So we're trying to do like a more sneaky route 468 00:26:27,116 --> 00:26:31,956 Speaker 3: of getting them into the top ten. So in twenty 469 00:26:31,996 --> 00:26:37,876 Speaker 3: twenty three, Duke and Northwestern tied for number ten, So 470 00:26:38,036 --> 00:26:40,556 Speaker 3: we're looking to get the same score as a Duke 471 00:26:40,636 --> 00:26:42,996 Speaker 3: or Northwestern, which is about a ninety two out of 472 00:26:42,996 --> 00:26:43,476 Speaker 3: one hundred. 473 00:26:44,436 --> 00:26:47,796 Speaker 1: Lauren says that for Columbia just to beat those schools 474 00:26:47,916 --> 00:26:50,396 Speaker 1: or tie them, they don't need to try goosing numbers 475 00:26:50,436 --> 00:26:53,756 Speaker 1: like their graduation rate or the student faculty ratio, or 476 00:26:53,756 --> 00:26:56,676 Speaker 1: even how much they spend on instruction. There's all kinds 477 00:26:56,676 --> 00:27:00,716 Speaker 1: of reasons they can just leave those particular metrics alone. 478 00:27:01,316 --> 00:27:04,556 Speaker 3: I want to specifically keep the expenditures per student figure 479 00:27:04,636 --> 00:27:07,756 Speaker 3: as close to reality as possible because those are publicly 480 00:27:07,796 --> 00:27:12,356 Speaker 3: available figures, they're in the consolidated financial statements. And also 481 00:27:12,396 --> 00:27:15,356 Speaker 3: since their spending is already so high, like blowing up 482 00:27:15,356 --> 00:27:19,156 Speaker 3: that number further doesn't actually do much as far as 483 00:27:19,236 --> 00:27:21,796 Speaker 3: ranking goes, because it's already in the top like ninety 484 00:27:21,836 --> 00:27:25,956 Speaker 3: eight percent of schools, Like they're already a top ranking there. 485 00:27:27,196 --> 00:27:31,076 Speaker 1: Instead, Lauren says, what Columbia could do if they want 486 00:27:31,076 --> 00:27:34,396 Speaker 1: to cheat without getting caught is just to play with 487 00:27:34,516 --> 00:27:39,276 Speaker 1: three variables. The percentage of class sizes under twenty students, 488 00:27:39,876 --> 00:27:44,116 Speaker 1: the percentage of class size is over fifty students, and 489 00:27:44,196 --> 00:27:48,396 Speaker 1: the percentage of faculty that are full time employees. So 490 00:27:48,636 --> 00:27:52,996 Speaker 1: three like totally off the radar statistics now, for each 491 00:27:52,996 --> 00:27:56,396 Speaker 1: of these categories, Columbia gave numbers to US News that 492 00:27:56,476 --> 00:27:59,796 Speaker 1: didn't line up with what Michael Thadyus found. The differences 493 00:27:59,796 --> 00:28:03,356 Speaker 1: were enormous, so Lauren says, secondly, Columbia should just pick 494 00:28:03,436 --> 00:28:06,956 Speaker 1: numbers that are about half as wrong, so somewhere in 495 00:28:07,036 --> 00:28:09,996 Speaker 1: the middle between what they sent US News and the truth. 496 00:28:10,556 --> 00:28:15,516 Speaker 1: And if all they'd done was those subtle tweaks, they 497 00:28:15,516 --> 00:28:16,676 Speaker 1: could have cracked the top ten. 498 00:28:17,516 --> 00:28:21,956 Speaker 3: And what I arrived at was the combination of those 499 00:28:22,076 --> 00:28:26,236 Speaker 3: values gives us a rounded score of ninety two, which 500 00:28:26,276 --> 00:28:29,436 Speaker 3: ties Columbia with Duke and Northwestern for tenth place, which 501 00:28:29,476 --> 00:28:30,796 Speaker 3: is kind of what we were aiming for. 502 00:28:31,396 --> 00:28:34,236 Speaker 1: But of course that's not what Columbia wanted. They wanted 503 00:28:34,236 --> 00:28:36,796 Speaker 1: to rule the rankings, and that's why they blew themselves 504 00:28:36,876 --> 00:28:41,036 Speaker 1: up because climbing higher in the top ten is really 505 00:28:41,356 --> 00:28:43,276 Speaker 1: really difficult. 506 00:28:43,476 --> 00:28:45,916 Speaker 3: So you know, we have to start making bigger and 507 00:28:45,956 --> 00:28:50,556 Speaker 3: bigger fabrications in order to keep climbing places, which lends 508 00:28:50,556 --> 00:28:54,996 Speaker 3: to that idea of the synergy between the ranking metrics, right, like, 509 00:28:55,036 --> 00:28:57,756 Speaker 3: we have to tweak many variables and in some cases 510 00:28:57,756 --> 00:29:01,836 Speaker 3: buy a lot to start seeing any appreciable change in score. 511 00:29:02,036 --> 00:29:04,796 Speaker 3: Like inflating one or two values just doesn't really do 512 00:29:04,916 --> 00:29:05,556 Speaker 3: much for us. 513 00:29:07,196 --> 00:29:10,156 Speaker 1: What Laura Novelle is saying is that if Colombia just 514 00:29:10,276 --> 00:29:17,836 Speaker 1: fiddled with three incredibly obscure metrics and just casually ease 515 00:29:17,876 --> 00:29:20,836 Speaker 1: their way into the top ten, no one's going after them. 516 00:29:21,076 --> 00:29:24,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely true. If they're cheated just by a 517 00:29:24,596 --> 00:29:28,316 Speaker 2: little bit less like who knows. And this goes back 518 00:29:28,316 --> 00:29:30,556 Speaker 2: to when did they start cheating, right, because I'm guessing 519 00:29:30,636 --> 00:29:33,956 Speaker 2: they did not start being so egregious right away, right. 520 00:29:33,956 --> 00:29:36,796 Speaker 2: They started small, and then they started climbing, and they 521 00:29:36,836 --> 00:29:40,236 Speaker 2: got more ambitious, and no one caught them. No one 522 00:29:40,276 --> 00:29:42,556 Speaker 2: took them by the hand and said, you know, bad boy, 523 00:29:43,036 --> 00:29:45,316 Speaker 2: you can't do this. And so they kept going and 524 00:29:45,356 --> 00:29:48,756 Speaker 2: they kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And that 525 00:29:49,076 --> 00:29:52,476 Speaker 2: to me is, you know, the hallmark of the cheaters 526 00:29:52,476 --> 00:29:53,116 Speaker 2: who get caught. 527 00:29:53,836 --> 00:29:56,916 Speaker 1: Columbia only gets caught as this guy, Michael Thaddeus, a 528 00:29:56,956 --> 00:29:59,876 Speaker 1: math professor, takes an interest and devotes an enormous amount 529 00:29:59,916 --> 00:30:02,436 Speaker 1: of time to figuring out how much to the extent 530 00:30:02,476 --> 00:30:05,916 Speaker 1: to which his institution cheats. Right, no one else is checking, 531 00:30:05,996 --> 00:30:08,516 Speaker 1: So right away we have a suspicion that maybe more 532 00:30:08,596 --> 00:30:12,796 Speaker 1: cheating goes on, because how many of these obsessive, devoted 533 00:30:13,036 --> 00:30:17,236 Speaker 1: math professors out there are there the motivation to look, right, 534 00:30:17,396 --> 00:30:19,556 Speaker 1: not that the goblin's looking or US News is certainly 535 00:30:19,556 --> 00:30:22,676 Speaker 1: not looking, because if US News the minute that they 536 00:30:23,876 --> 00:30:26,796 Speaker 1: claim to verify the validity of the data they collect, 537 00:30:27,076 --> 00:30:29,196 Speaker 1: then they're libel in the case of in the event 538 00:30:29,196 --> 00:30:31,836 Speaker 1: of a fraud. So they very clearly say, we don't 539 00:30:31,876 --> 00:30:34,916 Speaker 1: check anything. It's on you. So anyway, the reason I 540 00:30:34,916 --> 00:30:37,836 Speaker 1: bring us up is I'm walking down the street in 541 00:30:37,836 --> 00:30:42,156 Speaker 1: Manhattan about two weeks ago, down twenty second street. Guy 542 00:30:42,196 --> 00:30:46,276 Speaker 1: stops me, he goes, mister clapwell he goes, He goes, yeah, yeah, 543 00:30:46,516 --> 00:30:50,476 Speaker 1: big fan of Revision's history. I read that thing you 544 00:30:50,516 --> 00:30:53,236 Speaker 1: wrote about Columbia, and I got to think because it 545 00:30:53,236 --> 00:30:56,956 Speaker 1: brought me all kinds of clients uhh. And I was 546 00:30:56,996 --> 00:30:59,156 Speaker 1: like wait what. I was like, what do you do? 547 00:30:59,276 --> 00:31:03,996 Speaker 1: He goes, I'm a lawyer, he goes, what clients? He goes, Well, 548 00:31:04,036 --> 00:31:06,836 Speaker 1: you can imagine when other schools learned about what was 549 00:31:06,836 --> 00:31:11,076 Speaker 1: happening at Columbia, they realized they some legal exposure and 550 00:31:11,116 --> 00:31:13,396 Speaker 1: they called me. So all these clients. Now it was 551 00:31:13,436 --> 00:31:15,756 Speaker 1: like wait, wait, and then I said tell me more 552 00:31:15,796 --> 00:31:17,956 Speaker 1: and he's like, oh, I I can't any and he 553 00:31:17,996 --> 00:31:19,876 Speaker 1: walked away and I said, well, I gave him my email. 554 00:31:19,916 --> 00:31:21,196 Speaker 1: I was like, he didn't email me. 555 00:31:21,676 --> 00:31:22,396 Speaker 2: Of course he didn't. 556 00:31:22,876 --> 00:31:26,276 Speaker 1: So but that exchange makes you think, wait, so what 557 00:31:26,476 --> 00:31:28,756 Speaker 1: is he saying. Is he saying that lots of schools 558 00:31:28,796 --> 00:31:32,356 Speaker 1: are cheating They see that Columbia got busted and now 559 00:31:32,396 --> 00:31:34,636 Speaker 1: they're panicking and they're calling him to figure out whether 560 00:31:34,676 --> 00:31:36,436 Speaker 1: they have legal exposure. Is that what he's saying. 561 00:31:36,516 --> 00:31:38,836 Speaker 2: I think that's what he's saying, because the moment you 562 00:31:38,836 --> 00:31:41,636 Speaker 2: started telling the story and it didn't even occur to 563 00:31:41,676 --> 00:31:44,116 Speaker 2: me until this conversation. But of course everyone cheats on 564 00:31:44,156 --> 00:31:47,076 Speaker 2: the US News rankings, and in that case, right, if 565 00:31:47,076 --> 00:31:49,756 Speaker 2: everyone's cheating by a little bit, then the rankings are 566 00:31:49,756 --> 00:31:52,676 Speaker 2: actually probably still pretty accurate, because if every single school 567 00:31:52,716 --> 00:31:55,276 Speaker 2: is trying to bump themselves up a bit, then it 568 00:31:55,396 --> 00:31:58,796 Speaker 2: probably kind of all evens out. But they're no guessing, 569 00:32:01,636 --> 00:32:04,076 Speaker 2: not with Columbia, right, the people who are doing it egregiously, 570 00:32:04,116 --> 00:32:05,356 Speaker 2: Obviously it doesn't even out. 571 00:32:05,476 --> 00:32:08,356 Speaker 1: No, it's not. What a better more PLUSB explanation is 572 00:32:08,396 --> 00:32:12,396 Speaker 1: a is a cheating arms race that somebody fiddles a little, 573 00:32:12,876 --> 00:32:16,436 Speaker 1: someone else realizes that here is fiddling a little, and 574 00:32:16,436 --> 00:32:19,196 Speaker 1: they hiddle a little bit more, and then what you went, 575 00:32:19,356 --> 00:32:23,156 Speaker 1: Columbia is the culmination of a whole series of got it? 576 00:32:23,196 --> 00:32:24,676 Speaker 2: So Columbia is a nuclear explosion. 577 00:32:24,716 --> 00:32:24,996 Speaker 1: Got it? 578 00:32:25,916 --> 00:32:28,196 Speaker 2: But but yeah, it made me realize, you know, how 579 00:32:28,236 --> 00:32:31,036 Speaker 2: many people are cheating, how many schools are cheating on 580 00:32:31,076 --> 00:32:34,676 Speaker 2: the rankings, how many are actually being smarter and just 581 00:32:34,956 --> 00:32:39,396 Speaker 2: cheating smarter and not yet as cocky as Columbia became. 582 00:32:39,676 --> 00:32:41,836 Speaker 2: Because that's the other thing, right, The more you get 583 00:32:41,876 --> 00:32:44,636 Speaker 2: away with it, the longer you get away with it, 584 00:32:44,796 --> 00:32:47,636 Speaker 2: the more confidence you become that you will keep getting 585 00:32:47,716 --> 00:32:50,116 Speaker 2: away with it. And that's completely rational. 586 00:32:50,436 --> 00:32:52,876 Speaker 1: So, as someone who studies this, I'm curious in this question. 587 00:32:53,716 --> 00:32:56,596 Speaker 1: Is it so the longer you cheat and get away 588 00:32:56,636 --> 00:33:00,116 Speaker 1: with it, the more confident you become that you won't 589 00:33:00,156 --> 00:33:02,676 Speaker 1: get caught. But is it also the case that the 590 00:33:02,796 --> 00:33:05,756 Speaker 1: less aware you are that you're actually cheating. 591 00:33:06,276 --> 00:33:08,676 Speaker 2: No, I don't think that's right. No think I think 592 00:33:08,716 --> 00:33:12,316 Speaker 2: that these people are not pathological. They are very well 593 00:33:12,716 --> 00:33:15,956 Speaker 2: aware of what they're doing, but they probably give themselves 594 00:33:15,956 --> 00:33:18,956 Speaker 2: excuses because they also don't think they're doing anything bad, 595 00:33:19,436 --> 00:33:22,116 Speaker 2: and people who cheat all the time, who lie all 596 00:33:22,156 --> 00:33:24,516 Speaker 2: the time, they want to justify that, no, I'm not 597 00:33:24,556 --> 00:33:27,156 Speaker 2: a bad person and I'm not really doing anything wrong. 598 00:33:27,356 --> 00:33:30,436 Speaker 2: So Columbia actually probably tells itself we're not doing anything bad. 599 00:33:30,476 --> 00:33:33,556 Speaker 2: We're just staying competitive, because if we're the only truly 600 00:33:33,596 --> 00:33:36,196 Speaker 2: honest school and everyone else is cheating, then we get 601 00:33:36,196 --> 00:33:38,836 Speaker 2: screwed and they all benefit. So you know, let's all 602 00:33:38,876 --> 00:33:39,596 Speaker 2: do it a little bit. 603 00:33:40,076 --> 00:33:44,356 Speaker 1: Lance armst argument for which at various times in my life, 604 00:33:44,396 --> 00:33:48,036 Speaker 1: I've had a lot of sympathy. So here's what Lance 605 00:33:48,036 --> 00:33:51,036 Speaker 1: would say. Lance would say in the era that I 606 00:33:51,196 --> 00:33:54,996 Speaker 1: was taking EPO and winning the Twitter fans every year, 607 00:33:56,036 --> 00:33:58,076 Speaker 1: not just EPO, lots of things. The only way you 608 00:33:58,116 --> 00:34:00,916 Speaker 1: competed at highest levels of cycling was if you were 609 00:34:01,316 --> 00:34:06,676 Speaker 1: using performance enhancing drugs. My problem is that I was 610 00:34:06,716 --> 00:34:10,036 Speaker 1: better at it than everybody else, and I think that 611 00:34:10,036 --> 00:34:14,236 Speaker 1: that's actually true, because you know, you can't just take 612 00:34:14,276 --> 00:34:18,996 Speaker 1: performance enhancing drugs and expect to be better overnight. They're 613 00:34:19,036 --> 00:34:21,796 Speaker 1: simply a tool that allow you to train in different 614 00:34:21,836 --> 00:34:26,796 Speaker 1: ways and to exploit your potential more efficiently. And he 615 00:34:27,076 --> 00:34:30,956 Speaker 1: was the most efficient exploiter of his own potential. Right, true, 616 00:34:30,676 --> 00:34:34,996 Speaker 1: he brought a considerable his considerable intelligence, and the man 617 00:34:35,476 --> 00:34:38,236 Speaker 1: and his group or these guys were like to bear 618 00:34:38,276 --> 00:34:40,876 Speaker 1: on the question of Okay, if we're going to take EPO, 619 00:34:41,036 --> 00:34:45,276 Speaker 1: how do we maximize its usefulness? So like he's sort 620 00:34:45,276 --> 00:34:49,756 Speaker 1: of right, like if Landsay is a less expert cheater, 621 00:34:50,236 --> 00:34:52,636 Speaker 1: he doesn't get caught. Most of those guys never got caught. 622 00:34:53,076 --> 00:34:56,476 Speaker 2: But it's also because he's so incredibly talented that people 623 00:34:56,516 --> 00:34:59,476 Speaker 2: are going to scrutinize him more. Yes, And so. 624 00:34:59,236 --> 00:35:01,676 Speaker 1: He's like Colombia in this respect. You know that the 625 00:35:01,756 --> 00:35:04,916 Speaker 1: reason we care that Columbia is cheating us, it's Colombia. Yeah, right, 626 00:35:04,916 --> 00:35:07,516 Speaker 1: we're not East Tennessee State. If they cheat on their 627 00:35:07,596 --> 00:35:10,556 Speaker 1: US news, we're not getting quite as upset. Right, we 628 00:35:10,556 --> 00:35:11,356 Speaker 1: don't feel the mistakes. 629 00:35:11,676 --> 00:35:16,156 Speaker 2: East Tennessee State, no offense place. But yes, point taken. 630 00:35:16,316 --> 00:35:18,796 Speaker 1: Yeah, any way, could I make a personal confession about 631 00:35:18,836 --> 00:35:20,356 Speaker 1: cheating on the weekend? 632 00:35:20,396 --> 00:35:21,516 Speaker 2: Welcome, What do you cheat on? 633 00:35:21,756 --> 00:35:23,356 Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I cheat it. On the weekend 634 00:35:23,796 --> 00:35:27,876 Speaker 1: I ran in the sharing Connecticut Classic five Mile Road Rays, 635 00:35:27,956 --> 00:35:28,876 Speaker 1: an annual road race. 636 00:35:29,316 --> 00:35:29,756 Speaker 2: How'd you do? 637 00:35:30,036 --> 00:35:33,996 Speaker 1: And I came in I think seventeenth I'm an old man. 638 00:35:34,636 --> 00:35:37,556 Speaker 1: It was a good but I cheated, and I cheated 639 00:35:37,596 --> 00:35:40,436 Speaker 1: because there were maybe other cheaters as well. I was 640 00:35:40,476 --> 00:35:43,636 Speaker 1: wearing what they call super shoes. Ah, you know, you 641 00:35:43,676 --> 00:35:45,636 Speaker 1: know about this. There's now running shoes you can buy 642 00:35:45,636 --> 00:35:48,916 Speaker 1: with carbon fiberplates, and there's a particular kind of running 643 00:35:48,916 --> 00:35:51,836 Speaker 1: shoe made by New Balance, which combines a carbon fiber 644 00:35:51,916 --> 00:35:55,316 Speaker 1: plate with what they call a high stack height, an 645 00:35:55,436 --> 00:35:58,356 Speaker 1: enormous amount of cushion and you kind of bounce down 646 00:35:58,396 --> 00:36:01,796 Speaker 1: the road. And I heard that and in certain races, 647 00:36:02,276 --> 00:36:06,436 Speaker 1: these particular New Balances, you know, they're banned from formal competition. 648 00:36:06,556 --> 00:36:08,356 Speaker 1: I could not wear these if I was running an 649 00:36:08,356 --> 00:36:13,036 Speaker 1: Olympic marathon. But I'm like, it's the Sharing Classic five months, Like, 650 00:36:13,316 --> 00:36:15,596 Speaker 1: do you know there's like fifty people in the race. 651 00:36:15,716 --> 00:36:17,996 Speaker 1: You know, it's Saturday morning. Like, I'm an old dude. 652 00:36:17,996 --> 00:36:23,876 Speaker 1: Nobody cares. But technically it was cheating. Well was it? 653 00:36:23,956 --> 00:36:24,836 Speaker 2: Was it actually banned? 654 00:36:25,756 --> 00:36:27,116 Speaker 1: Well? Is it formless band? 655 00:36:27,236 --> 00:36:27,436 Speaker 3: No? 656 00:36:27,676 --> 00:36:29,596 Speaker 1: But he's cheating in the sense that is a violation 657 00:36:29,716 --> 00:36:32,436 Speaker 1: of the ethic of the sport, and it is an 658 00:36:32,516 --> 00:36:36,036 Speaker 1: unfair advantage over everyone who was in that race who 659 00:36:36,076 --> 00:36:40,236 Speaker 1: was not wearing carbon fiber carbon plate shoes with high 660 00:36:40,236 --> 00:36:40,876 Speaker 1: stock hites. 661 00:36:40,956 --> 00:36:43,556 Speaker 2: Well, if this was, if this were actually an important competition, 662 00:36:43,596 --> 00:36:44,516 Speaker 2: I don't think you would do that. 663 00:36:45,396 --> 00:36:47,516 Speaker 1: We are you saying that my race wasn't important to me? 664 00:36:48,796 --> 00:36:51,596 Speaker 2: Yes, I am saying that, Malcolm, that is exactly what 665 00:36:51,676 --> 00:36:52,236 Speaker 2: I'm saying. 666 00:36:52,836 --> 00:36:55,356 Speaker 1: No, I felt mildly guilty. Was that the start It 667 00:36:55,396 --> 00:36:58,556 Speaker 1: was the starting line, and I was looking at everyone's 668 00:36:58,596 --> 00:37:00,836 Speaker 1: shoes to see if anyone else had these shoes, and 669 00:37:00,876 --> 00:37:03,756 Speaker 1: I feel guilty. There was a conscious decision in the morning, 670 00:37:03,836 --> 00:37:06,076 Speaker 1: was like, because I have lots of legal shoes, but 671 00:37:06,156 --> 00:37:08,636 Speaker 1: everyone's virtually everyone who's serious is wearing some kind of 672 00:37:08,636 --> 00:37:11,956 Speaker 1: carbon yeah show, but this is the one that combines 673 00:37:11,996 --> 00:37:14,396 Speaker 1: it with the ice tackite. And so I was looking around, 674 00:37:14,436 --> 00:37:16,676 Speaker 1: was like, is anyone else wearing these new balances? And 675 00:37:16,716 --> 00:37:18,596 Speaker 1: I felt a little bit exposed, I have to say, 676 00:37:18,636 --> 00:37:21,596 Speaker 1: because but no one noticed and my if you look 677 00:37:21,636 --> 00:37:24,196 Speaker 1: on the website of the Sharing Classic five mile race, 678 00:37:24,556 --> 00:37:27,556 Speaker 1: there's no asterisk next to him next to my performance. 679 00:37:27,636 --> 00:37:29,796 Speaker 2: Right now now everyone knows, I mean, I did not 680 00:37:29,956 --> 00:37:33,076 Speaker 2: know that I was sitting across from a bona fide. 681 00:37:33,236 --> 00:37:35,196 Speaker 1: Maybe you can put that story in your. 682 00:37:35,636 --> 00:37:37,596 Speaker 2: Maybe maybe now you're going to make my cheating, but 683 00:37:38,356 --> 00:37:40,076 Speaker 2: it's going to be it's going to be an entire chapter. 684 00:37:40,516 --> 00:37:41,956 Speaker 2: Malcolm Glad, I just you. 685 00:37:41,916 --> 00:37:43,836 Speaker 1: Know, I just wouldn't very briefly go back. We're nearing 686 00:37:43,876 --> 00:37:45,876 Speaker 1: the end of our time. I have one last little 687 00:37:45,916 --> 00:37:47,996 Speaker 1: bit of business, which is, you know, I've been handing 688 00:37:47,996 --> 00:37:52,876 Speaker 1: out these prizes, Pushkin prizes, and we talked a little 689 00:37:52,876 --> 00:37:55,636 Speaker 1: bit about the first one, that George Santos Memorial Pushkin 690 00:37:55,676 --> 00:37:59,436 Speaker 1: Prize for egregiously deceptive self promotion and not that you. 691 00:37:59,396 --> 00:38:01,396 Speaker 2: Put memorial in there. That's hilarious. 692 00:38:01,436 --> 00:38:04,196 Speaker 1: Well, his career is essentially over, so I feel like, yeah, exactly. 693 00:38:04,476 --> 00:38:06,676 Speaker 1: But there was another one I did in a I 694 00:38:06,716 --> 00:38:10,996 Speaker 1: read the story by this student at Harvard, Harvard, your 695 00:38:11,116 --> 00:38:16,356 Speaker 1: school that you attended, the see that you. 696 00:38:16,236 --> 00:38:18,836 Speaker 2: Put a little barb in there without any swear words. 697 00:38:20,916 --> 00:38:22,556 Speaker 1: So my best friends went hard. 698 00:38:23,116 --> 00:38:25,836 Speaker 2: And and they're perfectly nice people. 699 00:38:26,876 --> 00:38:29,076 Speaker 1: So I found this this student named Brooks Anderson, who 700 00:38:29,116 --> 00:38:31,516 Speaker 1: wrote an article for the Harvard Crimson in which he 701 00:38:31,556 --> 00:38:34,356 Speaker 1: pointed out just how many administrators there were at Harvard, 702 00:38:34,636 --> 00:38:37,156 Speaker 1: and so I called him up and I said, Brooks, 703 00:38:37,316 --> 00:38:39,236 Speaker 1: can you do a little of work for me? I 704 00:38:39,276 --> 00:38:43,476 Speaker 1: want to know which school in America has the highest 705 00:38:43,596 --> 00:38:47,836 Speaker 1: ratio of administrators to students. You know, the perfect number 706 00:38:47,876 --> 00:38:51,036 Speaker 1: would be one, right, And I called that the ICU 707 00:38:51,116 --> 00:38:54,956 Speaker 1: staffing ratio and ice you in a hospital is characterized 708 00:38:54,956 --> 00:38:56,396 Speaker 1: by the fact that there was a one to one 709 00:38:56,516 --> 00:39:00,636 Speaker 1: ratio of staff to patients, right, That's yeah, it's the baseline. 710 00:39:00,916 --> 00:39:03,236 Speaker 1: Often there's more, but that's the baseline. So I said, 711 00:39:03,276 --> 00:39:06,316 Speaker 1: to what extent can we figure out if any college 712 00:39:06,356 --> 00:39:09,236 Speaker 1: is coming close to an ICU ratio? So this is 713 00:39:09,316 --> 00:39:12,356 Speaker 1: the second Pushkin Prize, the ICU Staffing Ratio Award. And 714 00:39:12,436 --> 00:39:15,916 Speaker 1: I deputized Brooks to go out in the world and 715 00:39:16,076 --> 00:39:19,836 Speaker 1: to do some research and figure out who is the 716 00:39:19,916 --> 00:39:22,716 Speaker 1: closest to the magic number of one, and so I 717 00:39:22,756 --> 00:39:27,556 Speaker 1: just wanted to run through his findings. I limited him 718 00:39:27,596 --> 00:39:30,756 Speaker 1: to the Ivy League plus MIT in Stanford, which seemed reasonable, 719 00:39:31,916 --> 00:39:34,636 Speaker 1: and so he has at the bottom was Brown point 720 00:39:34,676 --> 00:39:38,516 Speaker 1: one four, then Columbia point one five, Columbia. 721 00:39:38,916 --> 00:39:39,756 Speaker 2: There it is again. 722 00:39:39,596 --> 00:39:45,516 Speaker 1: Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, Harvard. And the highest, at a 723 00:39:45,596 --> 00:39:51,516 Speaker 1: staggering zero point three six administrative staff to student ratio. 724 00:39:51,756 --> 00:39:52,196 Speaker 3: Is he l. 725 00:39:54,916 --> 00:39:59,076 Speaker 1: The Bulldogs. They take on the prize which means, like 726 00:39:59,276 --> 00:40:02,236 Speaker 1: you walk around the Yale campus, chances are your one 727 00:40:02,316 --> 00:40:04,636 Speaker 1: third is likely to run into an administrator as you 728 00:40:04,676 --> 00:40:08,516 Speaker 1: are a student, which is I'm sorry, completely not only bananas, 729 00:40:10,476 --> 00:40:11,316 Speaker 1: it is bananas. 730 00:40:11,356 --> 00:40:13,236 Speaker 2: But but I will I will actually push back a 731 00:40:13,276 --> 00:40:16,876 Speaker 2: tiny bit on this because as someone who went to Harvard, 732 00:40:18,236 --> 00:40:20,996 Speaker 2: we always were a little bit jealous of the fact 733 00:40:21,076 --> 00:40:25,036 Speaker 2: that Yale's students had more support, more resources. 734 00:40:25,116 --> 00:40:28,756 Speaker 1: And wait, you were You're serious, You're serious. Actually you 735 00:40:28,756 --> 00:40:30,836 Speaker 1: went to Harvard and one of your complaints was a 736 00:40:30,916 --> 00:40:33,636 Speaker 1: lack of resources relative to other schools, not. 737 00:40:33,596 --> 00:40:36,876 Speaker 2: Relative to other schools, just relative to Yale. That Yale 738 00:40:37,156 --> 00:40:41,116 Speaker 2: was a much more personalized environment where students actually had 739 00:40:41,196 --> 00:40:43,516 Speaker 2: places to go, people to talk to, where there was 740 00:40:43,556 --> 00:40:46,876 Speaker 2: a very big support structure that was actually pretty absent 741 00:40:46,916 --> 00:40:48,956 Speaker 2: at Harvard. Like at Harvard's a big school where you 742 00:40:48,996 --> 00:40:50,516 Speaker 2: sink or swim. And I was fine with that. I 743 00:40:50,556 --> 00:40:52,916 Speaker 2: actually I loved it. Like I'm independent, I don't need it. 744 00:40:53,316 --> 00:40:55,556 Speaker 2: I understand. I see your face, I see your face. 745 00:40:55,796 --> 00:40:59,116 Speaker 2: But but all of these people, there. 746 00:40:58,916 --> 00:41:01,276 Speaker 1: Are no one's ever no one's ever sunk in the 747 00:41:01,316 --> 00:41:02,556 Speaker 1: history of Harvard University. 748 00:41:02,636 --> 00:41:03,636 Speaker 2: Oh, some people have sunk. 749 00:41:03,756 --> 00:41:06,916 Speaker 1: I mean, like yeah, nineteen thirty six, somebody dropped that. 750 00:41:07,676 --> 00:41:10,916 Speaker 2: But all I mean is that administrators do serve a 751 00:41:10,956 --> 00:41:14,436 Speaker 2: purpose for student support, student resources. I think that's important. 752 00:41:14,716 --> 00:41:17,236 Speaker 2: And all of these people have jobs, So these are 753 00:41:17,276 --> 00:41:19,956 Speaker 2: people who are getting paid money and making a living, 754 00:41:20,316 --> 00:41:23,276 Speaker 2: and they'd be fired if you had lower ratios. And 755 00:41:23,596 --> 00:41:26,756 Speaker 2: people are going hungry babies, starving babies, Malcolm starting. 756 00:41:26,996 --> 00:41:29,436 Speaker 1: No one is saying that anyone needs to be fired. 757 00:41:29,876 --> 00:41:32,436 Speaker 1: With the Pushkin Prize, we simply like to shine a 758 00:41:32,476 --> 00:41:36,836 Speaker 1: spotlight on, shall we say, anomalist behavior by elite institutions 759 00:41:36,836 --> 00:41:41,516 Speaker 1: in the United States. Come on, well, I'm trying to 760 00:41:41,516 --> 00:41:44,436 Speaker 1: get a strator for every three students it's getting We're 761 00:41:44,476 --> 00:41:46,116 Speaker 1: not talking about academic staff. 762 00:41:46,916 --> 00:41:49,876 Speaker 2: Okay, So academic staff obviously is more. 763 00:41:49,716 --> 00:41:53,236 Speaker 1: Important, and for the parents who pay the tuition that 764 00:41:53,316 --> 00:41:59,436 Speaker 1: covers this enormous amount of administrative belowd fair enough. Yes, yes, Maria, 765 00:41:59,716 --> 00:42:04,676 Speaker 1: this has always been enormously fun. I will go home 766 00:42:04,756 --> 00:42:08,436 Speaker 1: just thinking about your transformation when you speak Russian and 767 00:42:08,516 --> 00:42:11,436 Speaker 1: how anyone with the privilege of hearing you speak Russian 768 00:42:11,476 --> 00:42:12,956 Speaker 1: gets a different Maria. 769 00:42:13,836 --> 00:42:16,556 Speaker 2: I love it, And Malcolm, I will go home thinking 770 00:42:16,596 --> 00:42:21,556 Speaker 2: about your seventeenth place finish in your race. That was 771 00:42:21,756 --> 00:42:22,876 Speaker 2: life changing. 772 00:42:22,516 --> 00:42:26,156 Speaker 1: For you, right, yes, it was, Gus, it was Thank you, Maria. 773 00:42:26,276 --> 00:42:29,076 Speaker 2: Thank you, Malcolm. 774 00:42:29,236 --> 00:42:34,236 Speaker 1: Revisionist History Today was produced by Kiara Powell with Jacob Smith, Lemingistu, 775 00:42:34,316 --> 00:42:38,436 Speaker 1: ben at Af Haffrey and tali Emlin. Engineering by Flon Williams, 776 00:42:38,796 --> 00:42:42,276 Speaker 1: Sarah Bruguer and Kay Wang. Our music by Luis Garra, 777 00:42:42,556 --> 00:42:46,436 Speaker 1: fact checking by Kishew Williams and tali Emlin. Our showrunner 778 00:42:46,876 --> 00:42:49,396 Speaker 1: is Peter Clowney. I'm Malcolm Glawell.