1 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: Also media. Okay, hi everyone, and welcome to it could 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,479 Speaker 1: happen here today. We're very lucky to be joined by 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: Vladimir von Bildenberg, who's an underground journalist who covers Syria, 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,159 Speaker 1: and Curtis Dan has written two books, including one on 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: the alliance between the SDF and the Coalition. Is that 6 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: is that a fair introduction in Vladimir, Yeah, okay, thank you, 7 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. There has obviously 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: been a massive increase, in a massive change in the 9 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: conflict in Syria in the last week or so, just 10 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: under a week, and I think the information that's available 11 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: to people is often very bad, very delayed, or one 12 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: side or rather putting out propaganda things which mischaracterized the 13 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 1: situation on the ground, especially with regard to the Syrian 14 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: National Army, who we're going to talk about. Would you 15 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: mind giving us a sort of very brief explanation of 16 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: what has happened since last Wednesday when HTS, who will 17 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: have to explain later, launch their operation against Aleppo. 18 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 2: Well, in general, I mean the current situation Aleppo came 19 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 2: to a surprise too many many people didn't expect it. 20 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 2: So just after the ceasefire in Lebanon, the Hayata te Rocham, 21 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 2: which is an offshoot of al Qaeda. So they said 22 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 2: they don't have relations with al Qaida anymore. They split 23 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 2: off from al Qaeda. They launched a big operation in 24 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 2: Aleppo against the Serian government or the same regime, whatever 25 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 2: you want to call it. I think initially they didn't 26 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 2: think that they would go so far, all the way 27 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 2: into Alappo city. There have been agreements between Russia, Iran, 28 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: and Turkey and Syria in Astana about the deconflection zone 29 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 2: in the northwestern province of Italy. So the HTS insurgents, 30 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 2: they claim they launched this operation towards Aleppo in response 31 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 2: to violation of this Astana agreement. So according to that agreement, 32 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 2: this area will be in control of the HDS and 33 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 2: the other area will be control of the regime and 34 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 2: they wouldn't bother each other. But this agreement was never 35 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 2: really implemented, I mean versus Russia. They were constantly bombing it. 36 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 2: Sometimes the HTS would attack regime positions. Also according to 37 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 2: this deconfliction zone, actually the Serian government and reining back 38 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 2: armed groups they went actually in that the deconfliction zone 39 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 2: was supposed to be controlled by the Seerian insurgents. So 40 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 2: they launched this operation in response to the they say 41 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: the violations by the Serian government, and I think because 42 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 2: when they realized that the defenses of the Serian government 43 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 2: very weak, they pushed further into Aleppo and it was 44 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,239 Speaker 2: not really planned to take the city of Aleppo, although 45 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 2: there's also a video of Jiulani, the leader of HDS, 46 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: saying that my brothers, one day we're going to be 47 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: an Aleppo. So maybe it was planned. We don't know 48 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 2: really for sure, but the fact is that the Syrian 49 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 2: government defenses collapsed, and for some people in the reg 50 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 2: that was sort of reminded of the days of Mussol 51 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 2: when the Iraqi army they fled Mussol in twenty thirteen fourteen, 52 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 2: and then Isis took over, although the ht has really 53 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 2: denied that they are similar to ISIS, although they have 54 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 2: a similar Islamish ideology. So they took the city of 55 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 2: Aleppo in three days, and they have been trying to 56 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 2: go up towards Hama, a city more up. So far 57 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 2: they haven't been able to take the city. And on 58 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 2: the other hand, you also have another group called the 59 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 2: Seran National Army, which is groups composed of basic groups 60 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: that were supported by the Turkish government. They also started 61 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 2: to move. They also started to carry out operations against 62 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 2: Kurdish lad Forces also known as the Cerrian Democratic Forces. 63 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 3: Of the YPG. 64 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 2: And also they started to do operations against the Syrian 65 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 2: government in above Albab and also in northern Aleppo. And 66 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 2: they took also several towns in northern Aleppo. And also they. 67 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 3: Advanced and I think their main reach of that. 68 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 2: So while the HDS is primarily mostly fighting against the 69 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 2: Syrian government, I think the Serian National Army, because it's 70 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 2: back by Turkey, they also have an interest to undermine 71 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 2: the Syrian Democratic Forces because Turkey in the past they 72 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 2: have said they don't want to have a second Kurdish 73 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 2: autonomous region in the region, because you have already won 74 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 2: in Iraq, which was became recognized after the fall of 75 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 2: the damp, So you have a Kurdistan region in Iraq, 76 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,239 Speaker 2: and Turkey was sort of afraid to have a second 77 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 2: Kurdistan region in Syria, especially because it's created by a 78 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 2: group which has ideological. 79 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 3: Affiliation with the pik Ak with. 80 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: They followed the idology of the imprisoned leader of the 81 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 2: pik A k Abdulachalan, which Turkey sees is. 82 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 3: A terrorist organization. 83 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 2: So it's very complex, which we always keep saying about Syria, 84 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 2: but you basically have two different operations. You have the 85 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 2: Turkish back groups that are trying to stop the Kurts 86 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: from linking up with Aleppo, and then you have the HDS, 87 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 2: the Islamist groups that are trying to go up and 88 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 2: they already took Aleapo and they also took many areas 89 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 2: in the countryside of Hama, and actually they now control 90 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: all of province. So in the past the certain government 91 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 2: they control some parts of lip but now they control 92 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 2: the it's as they control all of Yeah. 93 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: So I think if we start by looking, I think 94 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: most people who listen to this will be familiar with 95 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: the SDF, with the Autonomous Administration in North East Syria, 96 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: and with the ri Java Revolution, and they'll be wondering. 97 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: Kind of the question I get mostly is like how 98 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: does this impact that? That's what people are asking. So 99 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: with that in mind, I think we should explain. Perhaps 100 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: we've talked before in this show about Operation Piece Spring, 101 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 1: Euphretty Shield and these Turkish incursions into previously SDF controlled 102 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: areas and the genocide or violence that accompanied that, or 103 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: ethnic cleansing, however you want to phrase it. Can you 104 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: explain what's happened in the areas where they have advanced 105 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: and like what that's meant for the Kurdish people who 106 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: lived there or in some cases are still there. 107 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, in the in the northern Aleppo and Aleppo City, 108 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 2: so you have two Kurdish neighborhoods called Ashrafiya and Chech Maksut. 109 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,559 Speaker 2: There are around one hundred to two hundred thousand people 110 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 2: living there. Then you have also two small Kurdish towns 111 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 2: called Tel Aran and Tel Hassel, which have changed hands 112 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 2: constantly during the Serian Civil War between the YPG, the 113 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 2: Syrian government and Iran, then by the rebels done by 114 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 2: ISIS than by al Kaida, like it was a big messah. 115 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 3: Then you have also you have like Kurts. 116 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 2: That were displaced from Afrine because Turkey they carried out 117 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 2: an operation against the YPG in twenty eighteen. So you 118 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 2: have thousands of Kurts that left Afrine. So the statistics 119 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 2: are a bit unclear, but at least there were around 120 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 2: ten thousand IDPs living in camps in northern Aleppo, and 121 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 2: you also have people living outside of the camp, so 122 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: the statistics are always a bit unclear, but it's they 123 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 2: now say that they were around ten thousand families that 124 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 2: were displaced, so they were already displaced from Afrine before. 125 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 2: And there's this town of Tara Aphad, which has been 126 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 2: a strategic location in Aleppo because it was sort of 127 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 2: like opening up the way to Aleppo City and the 128 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 2: Kurdish back forces they took actually this town with Russian 129 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 2: support from the Turkish back rebels, so they had like 130 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 2: grievances about this town, but Turkey even during the Afrine 131 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 2: operation they didn't get the green light to take this 132 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 2: town from the Kurkish back groups. Also, the Syrian government 133 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 2: was there by the way after dreamings, so this town 134 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 2: always was like a focal point of contention between the 135 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 2: Kurts and the Syrian insurgents. So what happened after HCS 136 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 2: took Aleppo the Syrian National Army with the backing of Turkey, 137 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 2: they moved on towards Teara Lapad. And also because in 138 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 2: the past there was more balance in Aleppo because you 139 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 2: have also two small towns called Mumble and Zahara. 140 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 3: They were like prominently. 141 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 2: Inhabited by people from the Shia religion, so there were 142 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 2: Iranian back groups there and they were in the back 143 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 2: of Telarafad, so they were sort of as a balance. 144 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 3: So they sort of like the curves, were. 145 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 2: Able to hold out in Tarapad despite like many offensive 146 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 2: by the Turkish back groups. So what happened because of 147 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 2: basically all the Syrian government, they were removed from Aleppo 148 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 2: and as a result, like they were very weakend and 149 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 2: completely isolated. I mean until now there's Kurtish forces in 150 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 2: Astrophia and Czech Masud, but they're completely surrounded and embargoed 151 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 2: by the HTS, which is not something new because before 152 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 2: this conflict, this new renewed conflict in Aleppo, the Syrian 153 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 2: government was also imposing embargoes on those two neighborhoods, not 154 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 2: allowing food and topping electricity and bothering people at checkpoints 155 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 2: because they had like always issues with the Kurtish led 156 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 2: forces because they're sort of in the Syrian Civil War, 157 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 2: they have always played sort of a third role, like 158 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 2: they want to have their autonomy. Then you have the 159 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 2: Shiran armed groups. They are trying to topple the Syrian government, 160 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 2: and then you had the Syrian government trying to stop 161 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 2: this from happening. And then yeah, the Kurtish led forces 162 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,719 Speaker 2: were trying to create the autonomous administration and they got 163 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 2: some support from the US in the fight against ISIS 164 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 2: since the Battle of Kovaniyah. So yeah, this is like 165 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: the situation a lepos. So now what happened is that 166 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 2: thea fat were in twenty sixteen, the Parabs of Telfa, 167 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 2: they fled actually this after as the FYPG took this down. 168 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 3: So now the Seen rebels they took this down, and. 169 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 2: This time that the people that fled from after into 170 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 2: these towns that they were living around four or five 171 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 2: six IDP camps there, they were forced to flee. So 172 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 2: the Kurdish groups they were like trying to resist the 173 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 2: SNA advances, but they were not able to resist them 174 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 2: because they were completely surrounded because as I mentioned, Nobel 175 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 2: and Zaka fell, so they were like completely pinched from 176 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 2: all sides. 177 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 3: But before they had always like. 178 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 2: Nobble and Zaha behind them, so they could not not 179 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 2: be completely surrounded. But this time they were completely surrounded. 180 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 2: They were forced to leave there or not able to 181 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 2: continue the fight. So I think there was like a 182 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 2: de facto deal or something, because you saw like convoys 183 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: with actually with fighters with weapons and armed hunvis. They 184 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 2: were like being escorted two checkpoints and they were allowed 185 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 2: to cross the ward. Sabka actually a town in northeast area. 186 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 2: And maybe most likely the US they were involved in 187 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 2: the sort of de facto deal and Turkey, but so 188 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 2: far the US they haven't comment on that, but most 189 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 2: likely there was sort of a deal for the forces 190 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 2: in Tarafa to leave with the civilians and they're now 191 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 2: hosted in camps, in displacement camps in the town of Tabka. 192 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 2: And then there are still Kurts living as I mentioned 193 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 2: in Ashtraphia and Chef Masuda to big neighborhoods in Aleppo. 194 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 2: And then you have also two small Kurdish towns around 195 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 2: thel Hassa which are now controlled by the year National 196 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 2: Army the Turkish back groups, so the hyattas their local administration. 197 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 2: They offered the deal to the Kurdish fighters. They said, 198 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 2: you can leave these two curt neighborhoods and Aleppo without 199 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 2: any issues, and the Curs that are living there, we 200 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 2: respect them and they can stay there. 201 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 3: But the Kurdish fighters, they have to leave. 202 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 2: But then there was a statement i think yesterday by 203 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 2: the leader of the SEF, the Muslim Ubdi. He was 204 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 2: saying like we were forced to evacuate the people because 205 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 2: we were trying to create a corridor between these Kurtish 206 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 2: enclaves in Aleppo with the rest of North East area, 207 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 2: because they are like Turkish backed rebels in the certain 208 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 2: government in between trying to trying to make a corridor. 209 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 2: So they said this corridor was actually was broken and 210 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 2: they were forced to evacuate. But he said that the 211 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 2: Kurtish forces were still in Aleppo resisting. So it seems 212 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 2: that the YPG didn't completely follow this offer of the HS. 213 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 2: But of course we don't know if there was maybe 214 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 2: a backdoor deal with the HTS to allow first people 215 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 2: in northern Aleapo to leave and then maybe in a 216 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 2: later phase that they will also leave Aleppo because they 217 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 2: are there in a quite difficult situation. 218 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 4: Yeah, a very difficult situation. 219 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 2: But they're now accused by the rebels that there are 220 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 2: position snipers in Aleppo, and then they are still a 221 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 2: Leppo but they never left Czech Masud and Astrapia, and 222 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 2: but I also talked to people. They're saying that civilians 223 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 2: they were offered in Czech Masud and Astrapia to leave 224 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 2: that area if they wanted to leave, so they were 225 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 2: not forced to leave, that they had the option opportunity 226 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 2: to leave that area if they wanted. But then the 227 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 2: buses didn't show up and they didn't leave, because I mean, 228 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 2: they need only not only evacuated Kurdish civilians from northern Lepo, 229 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 2: but I think they also evacuated the Shia population of 230 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 2: Dubo Zakha. There were sometimes also that they were also 231 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 2: evacuated to north east Ayria because they don't feel safe 232 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 2: for their lives if those rebels take those areas. 233 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 4: Yeah, and they are still there. 234 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 2: They don't want to be captured by the rebels and 235 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 2: used as hostages or so most likely they left with 236 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 2: the Kurts to north east Syria and what will happen 237 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 2: to them. They probably go to Iraq or to other 238 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 2: areas in Syria. 239 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, you meet like in Northeast Aria, you meet sometimes 240 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: like either former ratime soldiers or people who have left 241 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: regime areas and like they've made their lives there. So 242 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:16,599 Speaker 1: now we have this situation right where, yeah, we have 243 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: these two little islands. We'll just call them YPG for 244 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: the ease of to not introduce another acronym, right of 245 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: like a Kurdish armed folks in Aleppo. To complicate this further, 246 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,719 Speaker 1: and people will probably have seen this, I want to 247 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: explain it. In the Rezor, we have a different situation, right, 248 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: we have their the SDF attacking Iranian back relicious and 249 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: the regime. Do you feel comfortable explaining what's going on 250 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: in Darrisora where that's a different calculus. 251 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. 252 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 2: So since former president or the incoming president Donald Trump 253 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 2: when he pulled out troops from Syria in twenty nineteen 254 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,679 Speaker 2: when Turkey did an offensive against the Curbs and Talabas 255 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 2: in the US, they left, but then there was so 256 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 2: much criticism from both Democrats and Republicans that he was 257 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 2: forced to come back. So until now, there are still 258 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 2: nine hundred Jewish troops in Detozor Province and in Husska Province, 259 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 2: which is actually not a lot because if you look 260 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 2: to for instance, South Korea, there are thousands of troops 261 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 2: in South Korea and in other places, so it's not 262 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 2: very a lot. But in the US discussions it's always 263 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 2: discussed all we have troops in Syria, but actually compared 264 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 2: to other countries is not a very big number. 265 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 4: Nine hundred people, no, not unto very small footprint. 266 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 2: So they have this small footprint in Detzor and Hassaka 267 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 2: and they basically they worked with the Kurtish led forces 268 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 2: since the Battle of Kobani to basically defeat the Isis 269 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 2: Kelephate because it was a threat to European security and 270 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 2: US security and they were trying to carry out attacks 271 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 2: in Europe, and there were many attacks in Europe and 272 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 2: when civilians were killed. 273 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 3: So yeah, Ani Isis fight. 274 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 2: This is one of the reasons actually why the Kurtish 275 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 2: led forces they were forced to go to Detozor because 276 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 2: it was their last bastion in twenty nineteen when they 277 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 2: defeated the territorial Caliphate of Isis. So since there you 278 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 2: have this the SEF there and they have their own 279 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 2: administration in the Azora and they have like local forces 280 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 2: and Arabs that joined them in the fight against sizes. 281 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 2: So what happened that in the last few years, in 282 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 2: the last one or two years, there have been attempts 283 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 2: by the Syrian government and Iranian back groups basically to 284 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 2: recruit Arab tribes to fight against the SDF, So there 285 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 2: have been several skirmishes and battles since that time. After 286 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 2: also the SDF they arrested a commander of them that 287 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 2: they thought he was like going to portrade them. So 288 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 2: since that time, there were like several skirmishes between these 289 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 2: milasis that are calling themselves the tribal army or something 290 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 2: in that regard. And then you have the SCF, so 291 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 2: you had like fights between the Iranian back groups. 292 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 3: And the SDF. 293 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 2: And recently with all the changes in Syria, there were 294 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 2: a number of villages around seven six villages that were 295 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 2: actually Russian army. 296 00:15:58,320 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 3: Was based in those villages. 297 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 2: It was like the line sort of dividing the US 298 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 2: back as theF forces and the Syrian government forces. And 299 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 2: there's also a river, but those villages they were like 300 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 2: in front of the river, so the river is sort 301 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 2: of naturally dividing the areas between the SDF and and 302 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 2: the Syrian government. But there were like still a number 303 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: of villages that were not on that line, and actually 304 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 2: there were Russian troops based in that villages. Yeah, but 305 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 2: with the whole crisis with Aleppo and the fight now 306 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 2: between the HCS and the Syrian government in Hannah, the 307 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 2: Russians they moved out from those villages, so those villages 308 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 2: that actually are almost empty, there is nothing there. 309 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 3: So during this. 310 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 2: Situation they a s UF they just moved in those 311 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 2: villages and there was actually not so much fighting, although 312 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 2: on the social media I see that all there's fighting 313 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 2: and this kind of stuff. So there was some over 314 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 2: these like the last one or two years, they have 315 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 2: been heavy fighting between the SDF and Reign Impact Groups, 316 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 2: but in these villages not so much because it was 317 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 2: just empty villages and they just took them over and 318 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 2: there was no one there. 319 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So that leaves us with like I guess 320 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: an e s getting a little bit larger in the 321 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: south and the smaller in the west. 322 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, very much smaller in the west. 323 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 2: And it's even not clear if they can keep their 324 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 2: presence in Aleppo because I mean, Chef Marsuten Aspia is 325 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 2: now completely surrounded by the HDS, and it seems that 326 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 2: the HDS they have been a little bit softer with 327 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 2: the SDF and YPG than the SNA because the SNA, 328 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 2: I mean, they have their issues because they're also backed 329 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 2: by the Turkish government and the Turkish government. They always 330 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 2: said their policy is basically to stop the SDF from 331 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 2: treating autonomous area, and they also said the SDF is 332 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 2: linked to the PIKK, although the SDF they deny links 333 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 2: to the PIKK, although they don't deny their idological affiliation. 334 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 3: With the prison pick A k here. Yeah. 335 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 2: So Turkey always said that they are feeling threatened, and 336 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 2: they have always claimed that attacks were planned on Turkey 337 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 2: from northeast Asyria, from Java on on on Turkey. Yeah, 338 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 2: THEFF deny that. I think there was also there was 339 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:09,959 Speaker 2: not so a long time ago. There was also an 340 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 2: attack in Ankara, and Turkey also claimed that it was 341 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 2: a carry planned from British cities in Syria. 342 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's that's like the situation. 343 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:21,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, they gives Yeah, they give us a pretty good 344 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 1: summary of the situation. 345 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 4: I think. 346 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: So let's talk about HTS a bit, because I think 347 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 1: you're going to see one of two things. Right when 348 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: we talk about the SNA and HDS, A lot of 349 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 1: outlets will just collapse them under the same descriptor they 350 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: will just say Syrian rebels, and I think people will 351 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: think of the original largely secular uprising in Syria in 352 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 1: twenty eleven, and if they have not been paying attention, 353 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: they'll realize that ISIS has been and gone. But they'll think, oh, 354 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: these must be the same guys. These are not the 355 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,360 Speaker 1: same guys, but some of them maybe the same guys 356 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: who are originally part of Jiulani was originally sent there 357 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: by a back daddy way back to be part of ISIS. 358 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: But these are not the secular rebels who originally rose 359 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: up in Syria. And so can you explain, like, HTS 360 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 1: has this very interesting kind of legitimacy project right, like 361 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: it's trying to build a pseudo state and present like 362 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: a kind of gentler Jihadism. I don't know how to 363 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 1: say it, but can you explain a little bit of 364 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: this transformation of HTS and what you make of it. 365 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 2: I mean, as you mentioned that Julani, the current leader 366 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 2: of the HS, he was sent by at that time 367 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 2: I think it was Al Kaida are the Islamic State 368 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 2: of Iraq, and yeah, use area basically to establish like 369 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 2: but at that time there was no ISIS yet I 370 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 2: think so. So later basically he refused to budge allegiance 371 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 2: and he basically did his own thing. He created Jabalta Nostra, 372 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 2: which was the affiliate of al KaiA. But then he 373 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 2: decided to basically split from al Qaeda and he announced 374 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 2: like the links to I think at that time that 375 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 2: leader was Zawahiri, but I'm not sure. So he basically 376 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 2: split from al Qaeda. And you still have a split 377 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 2: off group from al Qaeda in Itlyp. It's called h 378 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 2: Russell Din, which they actually they had issues with. They 379 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 2: had some problems with them. So HDS, although Isis territory 380 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 2: was defeated twenty nineteen, the HTS or they basically with 381 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 2: all the creates in Syria because I mean they have 382 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 2: been fighting out for all the problems between the Serian 383 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 2: government and different armed groups. They managed to sort of 384 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 2: cementa crowd throw in the province of lip and they 385 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 2: created their own little administration there. But despite that, they 386 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 2: say that we don't have any links to al Qaeda. 387 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 2: I mean, they're still listed by for instance, the US 388 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 2: as a terrorist organization. 389 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a ten million dollar bounty on Julani still, right, 390 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: they just never took it away from Yeah. 391 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: So I mean it seems that the US doesn't believe 392 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 2: this moderation idea that the HS tries to show them 393 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 2: more moderately. But my idea of the HS, it's more 394 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 2: like a sort of a lighter, softer version of ices. 395 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 2: I mean, they're not like ices that they're gonna broadcast 396 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 2: people being blown up or beheaded on the film screen. 397 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 2: It's just that they do it in the back of 398 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 2: the screen. I mean, there's people being executed according to 399 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 2: the Islamic Shadia a lot. 400 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 3: There are people being imprisoned. 401 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 2: I mean you also had protests, actually it left against 402 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 2: Jolani that they were actually opposed to the authoritarian rule. 403 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 2: And I think then you have separate from the sort 404 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 2: of the Islamic Islamics, which you can actually sort of 405 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 2: compare to the Taliban. Yes, I think that's a good comparison, Yes, 406 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 2: to the Taliban. And also I think Taliban they have 407 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 2: some relationhops actually the HS, and they also congratulated the 408 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 2: HTS after they took control of Aleppo, so sort of 409 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 2: it's like a Taliban rual, though of course Taliban is 410 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 2: very different contacts related to Syria culture and Afghan culture, 411 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 2: so it's different, of course, but are both yes, Islamist 412 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 2: projects with a national project at the same time, so 413 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 2: it's Islamist project for Syria and the Taliban have an 414 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 2: Islamist project for Afghanistan, although you also have Pakistani Taliban 415 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 2: et cetera. 416 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's not. 417 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 2: Like a transnational jihad, but you can call it like 418 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 2: a national jihad maybe. 419 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 4: Yeah. 420 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: I think that's the crucial difference, right at least for 421 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: the US, like that makes them kind of more amenable 422 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: than than ISIS or even Al kaider Is that. 423 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, they have this nationally contained Jahadi vision. 424 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 3: So they don't do attacks in Europe or in the US. 425 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 2: But of course there are several groups in ITLAB that 426 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,439 Speaker 2: are sort of falling under the control of HDS that 427 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 2: are possibly could do external attacks, et cetera. And apart 428 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 2: from that, you have the Syrian National Army. So the 429 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 2: Syrian National Army, it's like a mix of different groups. 430 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 2: As you mentioned in the beginning of the series Civil War, 431 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 2: you had the Phisian Army, but then the Freezeran Army. 432 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 2: They split in several groups. I mean some like linked 433 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 2: to Muslim brotherhoods, some linked to Turkmen groups, other groups, 434 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 2: secular groups, et cetera. So all these groups that were 435 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 2: basically fighting in different provinces, they were all gathered because Turkey. 436 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 2: They did several Turkish military did several operations in twenty 437 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 2: sixteen in northern Syria with the main aim is to 438 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 2: stop the YPG from linking up the Kurdish enclaves on 439 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 2: the border with Turkey. So they did I think the 440 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 2: first one I was Euphrad Shield. Then they had I 441 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 2: think Operation All of Brands in Afrin in twenty. 442 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 4: Eighteen, incredible names. 443 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 2: Then I think the last operation account recalled was in 444 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen when they took Telaviat and Serkania from the 445 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 2: Kurtish Laud forces the YPGSDA. So they had these three operations. 446 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 2: And these groups are sort of a mixed as I mentioned, 447 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 2: a different groups with also different ideologies. Some are more 448 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 2: Turkmen in nature, some of them are more Islamist in nature. 449 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 2: Some of them are like sort of leftovers from secular 450 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 2: groups that USIFI. Some of them even they in the 451 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 2: past they received support from the US from the CIA 452 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 2: against the Seian regimes. So some of them they receive support. 453 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 2: And this is like a sort of umbrella of self organizations. 454 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 2: So HDS is one group and they control also other 455 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 2: groups in but it's one group. But the SNA there 456 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 2: are like a lot of different groups, and they also 457 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 2: have been fighting each other several times in areas and 458 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 2: Turkish control. 459 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 3: So this is very. 460 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 2: Different and there are more sectarian in nature, let's say more. 461 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,479 Speaker 2: I mean, they have also been less under control than 462 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 2: the HTS in the way that there have been a 463 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 2: lot of kidnappings for ransom, a lot of like sexual 464 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 2: violence against woman and rape. This is all documented by 465 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 2: self organizations, Juan organizations. They also have child soldiers, so 466 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 2: they have different kinds of issues, and but they have 467 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 2: been more accused of like more sort of gang style 468 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 2: of activity, and that's why. Also some of them they 469 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 2: were sanctioned by the US and also some of them 470 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 2: they have integrated like former IIS fighters in their ranks. 471 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 2: And you also have like you have some groups that 472 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 2: are frondos or the other are originally for instance from 473 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 2: the area around Mato or Aza. Some of them they 474 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 2: kid they were displaced from Gutta, so a lot of 475 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 2: them there. Also they came because the Serian government they 476 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 2: advanced with Russian support, and then these groups were brought 477 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 2: by buses to the areas under Turkish control. Yeah, so 478 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 2: these areas became a sort of like maybe it's a 479 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 2: bad word or sort of a dumping ground for all 480 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 2: these Syrian rebel groups that were not completely defeated but 481 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 2: displaced by Syrian government and offenses with the Russian support. 482 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 2: So I mean before they were an Aleppo and homes 483 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 2: and Hamma and Damascats in all this group they were 484 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 2: moved with buses through agreements between around Turkey, Russia and 485 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 2: Syria to northern Syria to it and now these groups 486 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 2: they are coming back because they were never completely defeated. 487 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 2: I mean, they had their own administration. So the Serian 488 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 2: National Army they fall under are the Turkish back the 489 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 2: Cerian opposition I think they call it the Serian National 490 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 2: Coalition or in Arabic the ital AF. So they have 491 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 2: their own interim government administration in THEIRS on the Turkish control, 492 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 2: and then you have the Salvation government under the Ahso 493 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 2: the are t two different administrations. And they also doesn't 494 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 2: mean that they agree with so, so just calling them 495 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 2: the rebels it's a little bit like, yeah, it doesn't 496 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 2: really doesn't fit to the reality. But of course you 497 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 2: also have to deal with the fact that for media, 498 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 2: if they want to explain complex situations to a general public, 499 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 2: it's very difficult to just say, Okay, you have this acronym, 500 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 2: and you have this acronym, and you have the White 501 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 2: and the HS and the SNA, so people they. 502 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 3: Will lose their interest. 503 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 2: So that's why it always becomes sort of this black 504 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 2: and white. So, oh, you have the Syrian insurgence and 505 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,479 Speaker 2: then you have the Serian government, and then it's already 506 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 2: complex enough to also add Kurts to the mix. 507 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 3: So they also, of course often the Turkish government. 508 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,040 Speaker 2: They got very angry that the media keeps calling the 509 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 2: YPG the Curse, because oh, they don't represent the curse. 510 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 2: But you can't say that with any group in Syria 511 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 2: or anywhere in the world. I mean, I mean you 512 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 2: have in Americans, you have different political parties. You have 513 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 2: different parties in Syria, you have different parties in Turkey. 514 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 2: So these groups don't represent all the Syrians, or all 515 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 2: the Arabs, or all the Kurts or all the Allwais. 516 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 2: There are always different political factions and that's what it 517 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 2: makes so complicated in Syria because a lot of these 518 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 2: based groups got fragmented. But actually with versus the support 519 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 2: of Turkey, they actually united on the one umbrella, which 520 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 2: is called the Syrian National Army, and then of course 521 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,479 Speaker 2: even on the Syrian government side, there's many different groups. 522 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,919 Speaker 2: I mean you have you have Iranian back armed groups, 523 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 2: you have groups from Lebanon that are helping the Hezbola 524 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 2: alban says Bola. Then you have Iraqi Iranian back groups 525 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 2: that are supporting Syrian government. Then you have also Shias 526 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 2: that were recruited from Afghanistan. And then also in the 527 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 2: Syrian government security structure, I mean, in the past there 528 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 2: was no room for malicious but they have, for instance, 529 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 2: the NDF, which is sort of like a Syrian government 530 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 2: backed militia which even some times part with the Syrian 531 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 2: government itself when they tried to become become more too 532 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 2: much powerful, sort of like what you haven't Wagner in 533 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 2: Russia that we try to challenge the Russian government and 534 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 2: then they got third bailed. So it's like even with 535 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 2: a certain sort of the forces back in the Cerian army, 536 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 2: it's not like so simple. It's also not you have 537 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 2: just a Serian army that's it. You have also different 538 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 2: kinds of militia, some supported by Iran, some supported by Russia, 539 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 2: that are backing the Serian government. 540 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, everyone wants. I think Ukraine has really reinforced this. 541 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: They want war to be like colors on a map 542 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 1: and a front line, and the front line moves and 543 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: that's you know, and that's just not how like oftentimes 544 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: there's little lines on a map will be in reality, 545 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: it's people driving around and pick up trucks with dishcas 546 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: in the back, wondering where the other guys are and 547 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: what's going on. You know. It's not like Ukraine, where 548 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: you have trenches and people firing each other from trench 549 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: lines to gradually move. And as much as it would 550 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: be easy to have modelists, we just don't. 551 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 4: In Syria. 552 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, sorry, it's different because if it's more 553 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,719 Speaker 2: there are more religious and ethnic groups done in Ukraine. 554 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 2: I mean Ucrime is you have the the Ukrainians and 555 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 2: the Russians, and I mean you also have people speaking 556 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 2: Russian in other areas of Ukraine. But it's where it's 557 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 2: much more complex in in in Syria. Althoio obviously also 558 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 2: have different groups fighting in Ukraine, but in Syria it's 559 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 2: a bit more complex and it's difficult for the media 560 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 2: to get a grip on that without like you know, 561 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 2: like trying to also explain to a normal reader of 562 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 2: what is going on in Syria. 563 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 3: But also in. 564 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,719 Speaker 2: General you have all this international media that are cutting 565 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 2: down costs and they're closing there for and bureaus. So 566 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 2: also I mean the money for like extensive reporting in 567 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 2: Syria is also getting less or in general in internationally speaking, yes, 568 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,239 Speaker 2: and then you have another problem is that you have 569 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 2: the problem of access in Syria. So if you are 570 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 2: wanted to go to the same government area is very 571 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 2: difficult because if you have reported in Syrian rebel areas, 572 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 2: the same government is not going to give you a visa. 573 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 2: You have to be like very pro Serian government if 574 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 2: you go to the areas under rebel control to be honest, like, 575 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 2: it's very difficult for any journalists to go to HDS 576 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 2: areas or the Eran National Army area. 577 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 3: So even if a journalist wants. 578 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 2: To report positively about the rebels, it's very difficult. Then 579 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 2: they have like a press adcutation in Turkey and they 580 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 2: have to cross the boarders very complicated, so there's barely 581 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 2: in very rare cases journalists going into northwest Aria and 582 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 2: then with the Kurdish controlled areas, if you can call 583 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,479 Speaker 2: them like that, like Northeast area, it's a bit easier. 584 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 2: I mean, there are people flying to Iraqi, Curtistan and 585 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 2: then they can get like a permission from the Kurdish authorities. 586 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 2: They're in Iraqi, Curtistan and then they can cross the border. 587 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 3: So it's a bit easier. 588 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 2: But the number of journals going there is very limited, 589 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 2: and most of the interests actually of the Western media 590 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 2: was not so much about the cern conflict. It was 591 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 2: more about this Western ISIS woman and ISIS fighters that 592 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 2: were jailed or held in camps in Northeast area. So 593 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 2: most of the focus of Western media was most of 594 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 2: the time, okay, what's happening in the whole camp, because 595 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 2: you have thousands of ISIS families there or in verses 596 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,239 Speaker 2: in the prison. So, I mean, the American journals were 597 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 2: interested in US DOAH fighters, and the Dutch were interested 598 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 2: in Dutch ISIS families are fighters, and the same for 599 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 2: many other countries. 600 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, the British media is terrible for that. They'll go 601 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: to Northeast Syria and then talk about Northeast Syria and 602 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: this our whole just exists as kind of a bubble 603 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: outside of context in that reporting. 604 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, they just talk about Shamima Begoon and she became 605 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 2: sort of a celebrity in the UK. Yeah, although I 606 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 2: think even on that actress nowadays it's like very limited 607 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 2: because a lot of these zero countries in the UK, 608 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 2: they have their own domestic issues. So also in general, 609 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 2: the interesting in Syria has gone down a lot, and 610 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 2: I think also with this current conflict and Aleppo, it 611 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 2: will get some intention in the media for a few days, 612 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 2: but at some point it's. 613 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 4: Gonna go down again, yes, of course, and. 614 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 2: Maybe there will be conflicts and other parts of the 615 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 2: world again, So I think at some point also this 616 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 2: media attention, the media attention for Sir already was like 617 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 2: very low unless it's gonna affect Europe in a large 618 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 2: extent because it could also create new waves of refugees 619 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 2: trying to go to Europe. Yeah, there's many people that 620 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 2: were displaced. 621 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 3: Again. 622 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 2: It was a very nice post on X by one 623 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 2: Journeys from I think a Saudi outlet, and he was 624 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 2: saying it's very sad to see. He was basically saying 625 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 2: like at any moment, our people can be displaced at 626 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 2: any time, or can. 627 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 3: Be displaced again. 628 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 2: So that's like sort of the life of Syrians that 629 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,959 Speaker 2: live in these different like front lines, like anytime they 630 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 2: can displace, like the people are Traffee, they were displaced 631 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen and now twenty twenty four they were 632 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 2: displaced again. And then you have people displaced by the 633 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 2: Syrian government living in the houses of kurts in Afrine 634 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 2: and they're also victims of this conflict. So yeah, so 635 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 2: it's a very complicated situation, people being displaced, moving in 636 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 2: the houses of displaced, and the displace living in other 637 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 2: people houses that are also displaced. So it's like a 638 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 2: very cynical and sad situation. 639 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and a very very difficult one for civilians. And certainly, 640 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 1: like with the changing government in the US, I mean, 641 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: it seems unlikely that we will be reaching out to 642 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: help those those displaced civilians in the in the near future. 643 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: And certainly we've seen a lot of Kurdish people who 644 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: have been displaced either by Turkish aggression or who there's 645 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: a whole other situation with the Kurdish areas in Turkey 646 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: at the moment and their elections and such which we 647 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: don't have time to go into. But many of them 648 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: have come to the US and I've interviewed lots of 649 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: them for this show, so we've I think people will 650 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: be familiar with that, right, I mean, I think that's 651 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: probably about all we have time for. 652 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 4: But I wanted to offer you a chance. 653 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: You have very good tweets, you have a very good 654 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: understanding of the whole situation. You have your articles do 655 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: an excellent job of making it understandable. So where can 656 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: people find your writing and follow you? 657 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 3: Well? 658 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 2: I mean, I you can find my tweets on my 659 00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 2: personal Twitter page which is my name is blotting me 660 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 2: for Blberg at x Vivan Wrockenberg. And also I write 661 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 2: for different outlets and think tanks like First As, I 662 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,240 Speaker 2: write for Middle Least im from the Washington Institute. Also 663 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 2: I've been writing some pieces for Carnegie. So yeah, I've 664 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 2: mean if we're writing for several places on the current situation. Yeah, 665 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 2: and sometimes Side to Interview, Side talked on BBC a 666 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 2: few times on the situation and Aduchavella. So you can 667 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 2: find my work on my Twitter profile. Always post my 668 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 2: articles there and yeah. 669 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 4: Yep, that's great. 670 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: Is there anything else you'd like to maybe suggest that 671 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: people follow. I think it could be really easy to 672 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: get a lot of propaganda when it comes to two, sirius, 673 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: So I think you'd suggest that people kind of get 674 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: their news from. 675 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think in general x is still 676 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,760 Speaker 2: like a good platform. It has been from the beginning 677 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 2: of the series Civil War, although of course you have 678 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 2: different accounts with different views supporting different facts. So it's 679 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 2: always good to verify any videos posted, although it's like 680 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 2: more difficult to very five videos than the pictures. But 681 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 2: it's always good to verify locations and the background of 682 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 2: people that are posting stuff. And then also I think 683 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 2: it's very interesting and good to follow the maps of 684 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 2: the Serian Civil War because you have several places where 685 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 2: they published maps of the civil war, so it's easier 686 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,360 Speaker 2: to follow it on the map than buy tweets or 687 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 2: posts on eggs. But I think in general, I mean, 688 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 2: I mean, there are still like many international media that 689 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 2: are are trying to do reporting on Syria, but I 690 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,240 Speaker 2: think in general what I've seen it's becoming more limited, 691 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 2: and it's mostly based on for instance, the Serum Observatory 692 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 2: for Human Rights. Yes, so the same Observatory for Human Rights. 693 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 2: It's a good source. They have a page in English 694 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 2: and Arabic, although sometimes they are the English pages are 695 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 2: a bit difficult to follow for people if they don't 696 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 2: know the background of the conflict because it's more written 697 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 2: for locals. 698 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. 699 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 2: And then also you have, for instance, there's there's a 700 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 2: civil side organization that focus on human rights abuses. 701 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,240 Speaker 3: I think it's called Seriance for Justice. 702 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 2: They are very good reports on the situation, but it's 703 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 2: a bit slow because it's not like twenty four hours. 704 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,760 Speaker 2: I mean it's like they're doing investigative reports on abuses 705 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 2: by all sides of the. 706 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 3: Ceriin civil conflict. 707 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, so Joheral, I think it is very grud and 708 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,240 Speaker 2: also like telegram, I mean a lot of these different 709 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 2: groups they have telegram channels where they post the latest updates, 710 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 2: but of course all of them are quite biased, but 711 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 2: bias you will get anyway in such a conflict as 712 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 2: in over the war. 713 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: So yeah, everyone's biased to a degree. You will see 714 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,760 Speaker 1: dead people a lot if if you go following telegram 715 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 1: channels to the Cerian Civil war. So if that's not 716 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: something you'd like to see, that's probably not platform to 717 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: be on Big Death. 718 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for your time. 719 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: I know it's late with you, and we'll let you 720 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,359 Speaker 1: get to sleep, and we do appreciate you joining us, 721 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 1: and hopefully people will follow you on Twitter and and 722 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: get good information about what's happening. 723 00:36:58,719 --> 00:36:59,280 Speaker 3: You're welcome. 724 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 5: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 725 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,800 Speaker 5: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 726 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 5: foolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 727 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 5: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 728 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 5: now find sources for It could Happen Here, listed directly 729 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,800 Speaker 5: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.