1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,599 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Sager and Crystal here. 2 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election, 3 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 2: and we are so excited about what that means for 4 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 2: the future of the show. 5 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: This is the only place where you can find honest 6 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: perspectives from the left and the right that simply does 7 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: not exist anywhere else. 8 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please 9 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and 10 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 2: you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad free, 11 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 2: and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. 12 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: We need your help to build the future of independent 13 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: news media, and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints 14 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: dot com. Tucker Carlson, Welcome to Breaking Points. Thank you 15 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 1: so much for joining me, sir. Oh, it's an honor 16 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: to join you, Sager A you kidding well, Tucker. I 17 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: think it's so poignant to talk to you twenty four 18 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: years after nine to eleven. It was I'm thirty three. 19 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: It was the foundational moment of my life. It's the 20 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: only reason I'm interested in politics. I read The Looming 21 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: Tower shortly after it came out, and it shattered my 22 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: conception of the Bush administration. Returning to your docu series, 23 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: struck again with the same feelings of rage of the 24 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: way that we were manipulated, of the way that the 25 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: entire event could have been prevented. But that's my personal 26 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: view as someone who was involved in it actually at 27 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: the time. Why did you want to return to nine 28 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: to eleven twenty four years later? 29 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 3: Well, I would say you're blessed in one regard that 30 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 3: you don't remember America before nine to eleven, I so 31 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 3: vividly do. I had three kids on nine to eleven, 32 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 3: and it was a much better country in measurable ways, 33 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 3: a much better country, and so I feel such sadness 34 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 3: about that. I feel tormented by it. And of course 35 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 3: I was caught up in the propaganda, some of which 36 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 3: I believed uncritically, some of which I sort of forced 37 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 3: myself to believe, and so I feel guilt and shame 38 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 3: about that, and I feel rage for the extent to 39 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 3: which I was manipulated myself and that I passed on 40 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 3: things that were untrue to At the time was a 41 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 3: significant audience. I worked at CNN and I was on 42 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 3: the second biggest show. 43 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 4: You know. 44 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 3: We weren't setting the agenda in the world or anything, 45 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 3: but it definitely had a lot of viewers, and it 46 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 3: was meaningful at the time if you said something on 47 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 3: that show. And I said a lot of things on 48 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 3: that show that were untrue, and so I'm mad about it. 49 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 3: And I'm also mad by how legitimate patriotic questions about 50 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:17,399 Speaker 3: nine to eleven have been suppressed through intimidation, and I'm 51 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 3: mad at myself for being manipulated by that also. So 52 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 3: it's a complicated stew of raged other people, disappointment in myself. 53 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 3: And so you come to a point in life where 54 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 3: you're like, well, what can I do? What can you 55 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 3: do about the past? 56 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:30,239 Speaker 4: Well? 57 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 3: Nothing, because it's the past, so you can create something new. 58 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 3: I mean, this is the best argument, by the way, 59 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 3: if you had a a sub perfect childhood for having 60 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 3: a ton of kids, because how do you fix something 61 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 3: that's already taken place impossible except by creating something new 62 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 3: and better, And so, you know, not having more kids 63 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 3: in response to time to eleven. But we did make 64 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 3: a documentary and we found kind of what you'd suspect, 65 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 3: but a lot more of it. I guess that basically 66 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 3: the core lies started with the Bush administration, and I 67 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 3: do you know there were foreign actors involved in that 68 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 3: For sure, but you know, I'm an American and I 69 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 3: often say I'm mad at Israel because it's interfering in 70 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 3: our internal affairs, which it is and did then too, 71 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 3: But ultimately I'm madest at the Americans involved. Honestly, I 72 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 3: no one was like, you're obsessed with Israel. I'm actually 73 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 3: obsessed with my own government and it's shortcomings and the 74 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 3: Bush administration, which I supported, roughly speaking, And of course 75 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 3: I knew the President and a number of people who 76 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 3: worked for him very well. 77 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 4: And those people. 78 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 3: Lied, Oh wow, did they lie in pretty obvious ways, 79 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 3: like any normal journalist at the time would have been 80 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 3: able to detect. The nine to eleven Commission, for example, 81 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 3: was a total sham from it was it was pre 82 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 3: written before the investigation. Okay, the conclusions were already written 83 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 3: when the investigating started, so like by definition, it was 84 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 3: a fraudulent enterprise, and any journalist at the time could 85 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 3: have found that out, and pretty much none did. What 86 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 3: does that tell you? It tells you a lot. 87 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: It tells us so much. I have my original copy 88 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: behind me actually of the nine to eleven Commission, and 89 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: I was thumbing through it again after watching your episode 90 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: on it, because it all just comes you know, it 91 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: all comes back from the Saudi connection to the missing pages, 92 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: which were held up for years despite the constant heroic 93 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 1: campaign of the survivor, the families, and the survivors of 94 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 1: nine to eleven. But when you put it together, Tucker, 95 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 1: the biggest questions around nine to eleven actually still remain 96 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: relatively unanswered and unexplored. So what did you find in 97 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 1: your docuseries from Building seven to the nine to eleven commission? 98 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: The Dancing Israelis how the reports in some cases preempted 99 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: the attacks. For years people were smeared for asking questions 100 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: about Many of those that I just mentioned all are 101 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: legitimate in my opinion, and were quashed almost immediately after 102 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: the attack took place in service of the war in 103 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: Iraq and of the Bush administration's agenda. So returning to 104 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: it now with fresh eyes, what answers did you find 105 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: to those questions? 106 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 3: Well, I'll start macro okay, So every single bit of 107 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 3: anomalous information, like things that don't make sense around nine 108 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 3: to eleven, particularly Building seven, which does not make sense 109 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 3: at all, still doesn't make sense. All of them point 110 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 3: to the same conclusion, which is foreknowledge there were people 111 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 3: who knew this was going to happen. That really is 112 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 3: the is the shocking fact. And Building seven, which we 113 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 3: spent an awful lot of time on and basically arrived 114 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 3: at the same conclusion as everyone else who's honest, has 115 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 3: arrived it like, what the hell? No, a fire from 116 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 3: the plane did not drop Building seven? 117 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 4: What did? 118 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 3: I actually don't think that's the most compelling evidence. The 119 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 3: most compelling evidence is knowable, provable, and that is that 120 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 3: somebody or group of people made massive bets against the 121 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 3: airlines involved in the nine to eleven attacks and against 122 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 3: the banks housed in the buildings that fell. Okay, so 123 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 3: that is proof. I think we any normal person say 124 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 3: that's proof of foreknowledge. So you know, they were short 125 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 3: sellers and they were betting against these companies. They were 126 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 3: betting that the share price would fall after the attack, 127 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 3: So they knew the attacks were coming in specific detail. 128 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 3: They knew which air lines to bet against, they knew 129 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 3: which banks to bet against. The most shocking fact that 130 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 3: we uncovered is that the authors of the nine to 131 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 3: eleven report the Commission found out who these people were 132 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 3: and to this day have kept their identities secret. What 133 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 3: I don't need to get to directed energy weapons to 134 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 3: find a conspiracy. 135 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 4: I just found it. 136 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 3: They said, they admitted we know who made these bets 137 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 3: in public traded companies and were not telling you who 138 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 3: they are. So the very first thing, even before asking 139 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 3: tough questions of CIA andsa French intelligence Masad Condi Rice 140 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 3: like all the people who have not fessed up fully 141 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 3: about what they know. 142 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 4: And that's the fact. 143 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 3: Philip Zellico, who the author of the eleven Commission report, 144 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 3: before any of that, I would man to know who 145 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 3: made those bets in public markets and publicly traded companies. 146 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 3: How do we not have the right to know that? 147 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 3: How could you ever keep that from us? How are 148 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 3: these public markets? How is there any transparent it's in 149 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 3: our financial system like those people need to answer questions today, 150 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 3: and anyone hiding that information from you is part of 151 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 3: the cover up by definition. So that's where That's the 152 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:24,679 Speaker 3: thing that blew my mind more than anything else, possibly 153 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 3: because I didn't know that, and I spent a lot 154 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 3: of time thinking about Building seven, which again I just 155 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 3: want to say, is unexplained. There are a lot of 156 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 3: different indicators of what it might have been. From the 157 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 3: guy who owned it saying pull it on TV to 158 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 3: newscast contemporanious newscast declaring that it had fallen before it fell. 159 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 3: And this is all well known to anyone who's pushed it. 160 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 3: All against that, all I want to say, and there's 161 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 3: a ton of detail in the dock, but all I 162 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 3: want to say is that any claim that people who 163 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 3: question the fall of Building seven are conspiracy theorists is 164 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 3: itself a psyop designed to control, and that's not acceptable, 165 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 3: not when three thousand people die. 166 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: I'm so glad you said that. It resonates with me 167 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: because I was that guy. I was frozen. I felt 168 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: frozen out by the mainstream media. I was in Barnes 169 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: and Noble reading Jesse Ventura's book. It's all I had 170 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: access to. There was no independent media or any of 171 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,679 Speaker 1: that at the time. And I'm sitting there thumbing through 172 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: obviously loose change any of those I'm not saying all 173 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: the claims in them held up. But the point was 174 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: is that there was a massive public appetite. And actually, 175 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: again what strikes me with the doc is that the 176 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: nine to eleven Commission, if we compare it, let's say, 177 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: to the Pearl Harbor Commission, both are completed in times 178 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: of war from when the necessity of a story that 179 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: comes together for a very purposeful agenda, It just seems 180 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: to align so carefully. And it's only years later. One 181 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: of my favorite books in the nineteen eighties, you know, 182 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: at don We Slept, which actually goes to the TikTok 183 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: of the entire Pearl Harbor attack. It took us forty 184 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 1: years to reveal the truth. It would have been nice 185 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: to know it actually in nineteen forty four as well. 186 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: Do you see it as part explicitly as a cover up, 187 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: you know, to perpetuate the war machine which had already happened, 188 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: or was it you know, at the deepest conspiracy is 189 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: that it was done specifically to spark the war machine. 190 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: Where do you follow on that question? 191 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 3: Well, let me just congratulate you on knowing that there 192 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 3: was a Pearl Harbor Commission in the Senate and that 193 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 3: they did produce a report. And the reporter is actually, 194 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 3: which i've read, is damning. It's damning. It doesn't explicitly 195 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 3: say what we now know is true, which is Roosevelt 196 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 3: knew this was coming. He wanted to come because he 197 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 3: wanted to join the war in Europe, even funding Stalin, 198 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 3: funding Stalin, let me say again, funding Stalin so completely 199 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 3: bonkers that it's certainly that happened, and he wanted to 200 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 3: join the war, of course, and we know that now. 201 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 3: But yes, there's a precedent for this. So that is 202 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 3: the quest. You've hit right on the question. And the 203 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 3: truth is, I don't know what it was. It might 204 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 3: have been a com mean, there were a lot of 205 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 3: things going on simultaneously, as is usually the case. So 206 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 3: you have CIA, which is intent on building human intelligence 207 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:12,199 Speaker 3: sources within al Qaeda. Okay, so they've got sophisticated electronic surveillance. 208 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 3: They still do, but they have no one in al Qaida. 209 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 3: So John Brennan is station chief in Riad, Saudi Arabia. 210 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 3: When thirteen of the nineteen hijackers got visas to come 211 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 3: to the United States from Saudi. He is running the station, 212 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 3: which is incredible to me. I didn't know that either. 213 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 3: And they know that these guys are terrorists, and they 214 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 3: followed some of them to Kuala Lumpur, they follow them 215 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 3: around the world where they're meeting to talk about attacking 216 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 3: the United States, and they allow them to come to 217 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 3: the US and they surveil them. Israeli Intelligence clearly did 218 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 3: the same. I mean, there were Israeli intel assets in 219 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 3: the places where the hijackers were in southern California, in Florida, 220 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 3: and we know that it's all established. 221 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 4: Now. 222 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 3: That's not to say I'm not saying Massad plan nine 223 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 3: to eleven, not saying CIA plan nine to eleven. And 224 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 3: by the way, nobody cares if you say CIA plan 225 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 3: nine to eleven. But Massad, you're an anti semit I'm 226 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 3: an American and I want to know what happened. 227 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 4: Stop. 228 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 3: And I don't know what happened, but I know that 229 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 3: both those intel services and probably French intelligence, which is 230 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 3: surprisingly sophisticated, considering that France is basically just a museum 231 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 3: with cheese, but French intelligence is a real thing and 232 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 3: a player in global affairs and has been for a 233 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 3: long time. And they clearly knew that some of this too, 234 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 3: at least some of it. So the question is was 235 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 3: this negligence, was it malintent? Was it just a mistake 236 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 3: that they're not communicating this to domestic law enforcement FBI 237 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 3: because they want to cultivate these sources. I don't know. 238 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 3: I do know that I know two things. One the second, 239 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 3: CIA was kind of like with the end of the 240 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 3: Cold War, which is exactly ten years before nine to eleven, 241 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 3: almost exactly ten years almost of the month the Cold 242 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 3: were ended, and they're kind of floating and like they're 243 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 3: facing budget cuts. We don't know what the budget is. 244 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 3: Even now, we don't know what their budget is because 245 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 3: it's classified. By the way, I don't think the White 246 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 3: House knows what their budget is, Like I know that, 247 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 3: actually they don't know what that what's the CIA budget? 248 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,199 Speaker 3: You can't get an answer because nobody knows, and I 249 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 3: don't think many people at CIA know actually because it's 250 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,319 Speaker 3: so compartmentalized. But anyway, their budget was going to go down. 251 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 3: Clearly it had gone down, Like what's the point of 252 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 3: CIA is a paramilitary force? Anyway, without a Cold War, 253 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 3: nine to eleven happens and they're funding at least more 254 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 3: than doubles. But we don't really know. But clearly now 255 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 3: it's the largest I mean, it's a country. CIA is 256 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 3: not part of really the US government. There's no accountability 257 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,079 Speaker 3: at all. They run companies, they have an army, They 258 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 3: kill people, they spy on people, none of it with 259 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 3: any oversight whatsoever or even knowledge of what they're doing. 260 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 3: Even again, I'm not sure the CIA director knows himself 261 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,439 Speaker 3: what the whole agency is doing. That's all a byproduct 262 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 3: of nine to eleven. Nine to eleven made that possible. 263 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 3: They thrived the country whether they thrived, so they were 264 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 3: beneficiaries of it. 265 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 4: That's the first thing we know. 266 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 3: The second thing we know is that as the towers 267 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 3: were falling, plans were being made in Washington to invader 268 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 3: Rock and that was ideological. That was done on behalf 269 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 3: of another that wanted to do that. Iraq was not 270 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 3: connected to nine to eleven. Actually, you could make the 271 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 3: case that Saddam was like having Saddam in power was 272 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 3: a net positive for the United States. It kept Iran 273 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 3: in Czech He was a secular leader. He was not 274 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 3: a religious nun at all. He was a bath party guy, 275 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 3: he was a socialist. Like, how was that a threat 276 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 3: to us? Exactly? It wasn't. So the world became a 277 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 3: lot more dangerous when Saddam was killed, much more dangerous. 278 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 3: But the Israelis wanted that, and they pushed the US 279 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 3: government to do it. There were a lot of people 280 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,199 Speaker 3: in good faith, Americans in good faith, a lot of them, 281 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 3: by the way, who were not Israeli agents. They really 282 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 3: believed that this would be good for the United States. 283 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 3: I don't want to say this was a pure conspiracy. 284 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 3: People believed it. I was there, I know that, and 285 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 3: they weren't working for Israel. They were just like diluted 286 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 3: into thinking that, you know, the Middle East would become 287 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 3: Europe if only we conducted a series of wars. What 288 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 3: we didn't know is that Europe would become the Middle 289 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 3: East and the Middle East to become really nice under 290 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 3: authoritarian leaders. 291 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 4: But like the future is impossible to. 292 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 3: Predict anyway, So we know that the people that people 293 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 3: in their dark imaginings think were responsible for this, those 294 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,679 Speaker 3: people did benefit actually big time. They got what they wanted. 295 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 3: I don't know if they benefited in some ultimate sense, 296 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 3: but they definitely got what they wanted. It doesn't mean 297 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 3: that they did it on purpose. I think you could 298 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 3: make a compelling case that other countries knew this was coming. 299 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 3: They have all claimed that they warned the US government. 300 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 3: Maybe they did. It's totally plausible that they warned CIA 301 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 3: and c I ignored them or had other reasons for 302 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 3: not acting on the information, But they didn't tell the FBI. 303 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 3: That's just that's just not true. We've talked to a 304 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 3: lot of people at FBI and like, what is that? 305 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 3: And you know, I could come up with tons of 306 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 3: suspicions and theories. What I know is everything I've saidis factual, 307 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 3: it's provable, it's actually documented, And we have people. We 308 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 3: didn't interview any person who wasn't directly connected, who wasn't 309 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 3: participating in the events preceding or following nine to eleven. 310 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 3: Everybody is a primary source, yes, and that's where these 311 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 3: views come from. So this is not a conspiracy theory. 312 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 3: These are factual statements. What are they add up to. 313 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 3: They add up to the need to have an honest 314 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 3: conversation with that intimidation from you know whomever on Twitter, 315 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 3: because we have a right and an obligation to know 316 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 3: or this will happen again. And by the way, it 317 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 3: has happened like multiple times since then, the Syrian gas attacks, 318 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 3: the you know, Russian drones in Poland or whatever, million 319 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 3: false flag operations all the time, and they have resulted 320 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 3: in the death of American citizens, military and otherwise, and 321 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 3: the expenditure of like trillions of dollars of our money 322 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 3: and the devaluation of the US dollars, so like it's 323 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 3: actually kind of wrecked the country. 324 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 4: This stuff. It has to stop. 325 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, the most important part of your series is episode 326 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: five from Me from Tragedy to Tyranny, because that's the 327 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: part of the series which, again it reminds me of 328 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: and people have said this before, nine to eleven brought 329 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: out the best and the worst. Nine to twelve was 330 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: one of the most you know, it was one of 331 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: those days where everyone was sick. I'm just old enough 332 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: to vaguely remember, even as a small child, kind of 333 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: remembering what it was like to be part of that togetherness. 334 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: But by nine to eleven, two thousand and two, things 335 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: were very different. And what the Bush administration did, I mean, 336 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: I don't know about you. For me, George W. Bush's 337 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: hands down the worst president in American history. The foreign 338 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: military adventures and the destruction of our civil liberties, the bankruptcy, 339 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: the deaths of millions, and yet you know, to watch 340 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: him be resurrected as some painting grandfather who attends the 341 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: Super Bowl or a Rangers game is just disgusting to me. 342 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: It's beyond disgusting. And putting that together, you know, the 343 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: rage inside has not surpassed because I've met so many 344 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: who suffered because of nine element, namely American service members. 345 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: But one of the things that I want to return 346 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: to is you were talking about your role on cable 347 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: at the time, and I always think it's very poignant. 348 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: You know, a significant portion of your audience and my audience, 349 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: they were not even alive on nine to eleven, or 350 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: they don't remember it. Why was it so difficult? Because 351 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: we will experience events like this, and we actually have 352 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 1: in a smaller level scale. Why is it so difficult 353 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: at the time to voice a dissenting opinion to try 354 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: and bring the country off of this track when by 355 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 1: nine to eleven, two thousand and two, just based on 356 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: the historical record, the entire war machine is humming, we 357 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: are going to into Iraq, Patriot Act, all of it 358 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: has come together, and it was time to start screaming, 359 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: and very few people did. 360 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 4: It's totally right. 361 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 3: I've thought a lot about that, actually, and I felt 362 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,919 Speaker 3: like I was better positioned than most to know what 363 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 3: was going on because I knew so many people in 364 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 3: the administration in you know, decision making roles, and because 365 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 3: of the way I'd grown up, which is like pretty 366 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 3: familiar with a lot of these questions or just around 367 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 3: them a lot, you know, So I really was in 368 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 3: a place where I should have called bullshit on a 369 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 3: lot of stuff, and why did I? 370 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 4: And you know, you always have to allow for the fact. 371 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 3: That you don't understand your own motives, and so you're 372 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 3: a young parent with three kids, like maybe I'm afraid 373 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 3: I can't pay my mortgage if I get you know, whatever, 374 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 3: there's that they're probably venal reasons, but consciously I'm being 375 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 3: as honest as I can be. I didn't feel any 376 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 3: of that. I wasn't like, oh I must conform or 377 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 3: I will, you know, go bankrupt. It was I was 378 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 3: very upset about nine to eleven. They took my emotions 379 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 3: and the emotions of hundreds and millions of other Americans 380 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 3: and leverage them against us and use them to control us. 381 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 3: And I see this with October seventh, you know, it 382 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 3: was like horrifying, horrifying event, like foreign fighters can be 383 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 3: in your country and kill people to music festival. It's 384 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 3: like it's the night mercenario. Actually that And as a 385 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 3: parent of like kids who could be at a music festival, 386 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 3: it's like, ah, I got emotional seeing that, but that 387 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 3: emotion is used by unscrupulous politicians to subvert your actual interests, 388 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 3: and you certainly see that with October seventh, but you 389 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 3: saw it in this country with my media, and I 390 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 3: participated in it unknowingly with nine to eleven, Like I 391 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 3: lost a friend on nine to eleven. It happened. You know, 392 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 3: I've lived in Washington the Pentagon got hit. I mean, 393 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 3: you really felt like things were falling apart. I've got 394 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 3: I remember going to a gas station right after the 395 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 3: was on the phone with my editor in New York 396 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:17,239 Speaker 3: when the second plane hit. 397 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 4: He saw it. 398 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 3: He lived downtown in Tribeca, and so the whole thing 399 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 3: it just felt so personal and real. And I remember 400 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 3: going and gassing up our suburban at the gas station, 401 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 3: and there was my neighbor gassing up his suburban, and 402 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 3: he's like, we're doing it for the same reason. Look, 403 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 3: we may need to run this. Every person felt this, 404 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 3: Every adult, particularly every parent at the time felt that. 405 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 3: So you were legit afraid legit, like as Israelis felt 406 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 3: after October seventh. 407 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:43,919 Speaker 4: We felt after nine to eleven. I get it. 408 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 3: And that emotion blinded me and dulled my critical thinking 409 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 3: to the point where I couldn't see certain things and 410 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 3: it was only what was it Almost exactly two years 411 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 3: later when I went to a rock that I realized, 412 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 3: Oh my god, gosh, you know I was lied to. 413 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 3: I participated in the lying. I didn't mean to, but 414 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 3: I did. And that's when I resolved, I'm never doing 415 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 3: that again. I'm never going to allow myself to get 416 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 3: so fearful, angry, whatever, that you know, bulliebase of emotions 417 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 3: that I can't think straight and that I wind up 418 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 3: parroting lies that hurt people. So that really, oh thank god. 419 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 3: I was out of that cycle by two thousand and three, 420 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 3: but I'm still twenty five years later, soul searching on 421 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 3: this and a lot of other related topics that I 422 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 3: didn't fully understand that I should have understood. 423 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: I've taken that example to heart in very tough moments, 424 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: one of them. Honestly, I don't know about you, but 425 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: for me, there was something really viscerable, visceral about reacting 426 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: to Charlie's death on the air on the twenty fourth 427 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: anniversary of nine to eleven. It fell very eerie for me. 428 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: And you know, you and I were supposed to talk 429 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: that day to talk about this very documentary, and for me, 430 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: I'm not comparing the two. It's just that to process 431 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: real time tragedy on the airwaves. Also keeping in mind 432 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: all of the worst mistakes of nine to eleven in 433 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: the immediate aftermath, I see the mass hysteria come back. 434 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and I think it's a bipartisan problem. But 435 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: what really it is a human problem. You're exactly right, 436 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: that's the best way to put it. But then when 437 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: I saw Pam Bondi, the Attorney General, and even the 438 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: President in a case, you know, echo a call for 439 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 1: hate speech, I said, oh my god, we have learned 440 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: absolutely nothing. How have you been thinking about that in 441 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: the wake of Charlie's death. 442 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 3: So I guess I would disagree that we haven't learned anything. 443 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 3: I think a lot of people have learned that lesson. 444 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 4: I do think that. 445 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 3: And the media landscape is so different now, I mean, 446 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 3: it is so much less centralized. We've talked about this 447 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 3: at great length, and your success is just like the 448 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 3: perfect example. You know, Rogan had been around a long time, 449 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 3: making Kelly been around a long time. I've been around 450 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 3: a long time, and then you know, transitioned into a 451 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 3: different form of media. You hadn't been around at all. 452 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 3: You just like decided you thought these things that went 453 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 3: online and became huge. So you're the greatest testament to 454 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 3: how in my opinion, to how much things have changed. 455 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 3: And no, it's just so it's wonderful to see it 456 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 3: because I think that for all the problems with independent 457 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 3: media and social media, they're way better than what we 458 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 3: had because they're harder to control. So I actually feel 459 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 3: like people have been much better this time. Like you 460 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 3: fool me twice, it's my fault, and they that people 461 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 3: really feel it. Right now, you can get to the 462 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 3: point where you don't believe anything and you're resistant to 463 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 3: actual evidence, which itself is a form of insanity, and 464 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,959 Speaker 3: you don't want to go there. Just because most conspiracy 465 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 3: theories have proven true, which they have, doesn't mean that 466 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 3: every far out claim is true, because they're not, so 467 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 3: you want to stay rational. But from my perspective, so 468 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 3: that was not even a temptation for me, and but 469 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 3: for my perspective, it was like, I really you know 470 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 3: Neutralli Kirk legitimately well, and was legitimately close to him 471 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 3: and was thrilled He's just a great person to talk to. 472 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 3: You because he was so open minded about stuff, and 473 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 3: so I was very, very upset when he died. But 474 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 3: one of my first thoughts was, you know, you have 475 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 3: to his memory is not served by lying at all. 476 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 3: And I feel this way about nine to eleven, which 477 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,199 Speaker 3: didn't affect me any more or less than most Americans, 478 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 3: but I really felt at the time like an American. 479 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 3: There was a real sense of americanness. Then that has 480 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 3: basically gone, partly as a result of nine to eleven. 481 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 3: It's also said, but anyway, the point is, if you 482 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 3: want to serve a memory of a person or a nation, 483 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 3: act honorably if you think the person in the nation 484 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 3: are honorable. And I did think America was honorable, and 485 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 3: I know Charlie Kirk was honorable as a fact, he 486 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 3: was honorable. So how does lying serve that? It actually 487 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 3: desecrates the memory of the person you're claiming to celebrate, Like, 488 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 3: don't do that, So, you know, being honest, it was 489 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 3: simultaneously not being irresponsible by the way. 490 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 4: I mean, all kinds of. 491 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 3: People had really dark suspicions the second he was murdered, 492 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 3: which I get, And as with nine to eleven, it 493 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 3: was very clear to me who was benefiting from this, 494 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 3: but it doesn't mean they did it. So you just 495 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 3: have to stay responsible. Only say things that you know 496 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 3: are true or that you sincerely believe her true. That's 497 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 3: a really easy standard to uphold. When you get upset, 498 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,360 Speaker 3: it becomes something you need to remind yourself of. But objectively, 499 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 3: it's a simple, good standard that all of us should hold. 500 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 3: Two And I got so mad, for example, at condoleeze Rice, 501 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 3: particularly because condilly'zer Rice is still celebrated as some sort 502 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 3: of like genius or something, when she's a SubGenius, I'll say, 503 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 3: totally conventional. But she's also had a real hand in 504 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 3: hurting the United States in denying Putin asked to be 505 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 3: a NATO. He asked to be a NATO, which I 506 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 3: have solved, like all of our problems. NATO existed to 507 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 3: contain Russia. Now Russia wants to join the Alliance. Oh 508 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 3: my gosh, we've won. And she convinced George W. Bush 509 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,959 Speaker 3: this is a f act not to allow that. So 510 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,719 Speaker 3: I think we can say that condulizer race is at 511 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 3: least indirectly responsible for millions of deaths in Russia and Ukraine, 512 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 3: like that's really a crime. And yet she's like head 513 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 3: of Hoover whatever they're calling. I mean, it's also she's 514 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 3: gotten all the rewards and all the merit badges of 515 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 3: our diseased, fake meritocracy, and that drives me so crazy 516 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 3: that I was tempted because it's so unfair, it's such 517 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 3: an assault against justice that I was so tempted in 518 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 3: my head to be like conduliezer race knew this was coming, 519 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 3: but I don't have any evidence of. 520 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 4: That at all. 521 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, so you do have to pull yourself back a 522 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 3: little bit. I think that's fair. You should. 523 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: We've spent a lot of time here on the show 524 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: talking about those questions, and I'm exactly like you. We 525 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: can talk potentially about benefit, etc. But we do have 526 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: to still deal in the realm of facts. But kind 527 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: of tying the two things together. What appalled me is 528 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: that guys like George Tennant and the CIA employees and 529 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: FBI directors they suffered nothing after nine eleven. They got 530 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: more power, they became more important, they became heroes. You know, 531 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: they were celebrated in the famous pictures. I'm kind of 532 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 1: ruminating on Cash Betel in the wake of Charlie's assassination, 533 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: just In his handling of the investigation, and I'm curious, like, 534 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: are you satisfied with his performance here publicly in the 535 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: wake of Charlie's death and then broadly with the conventional 536 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: explanation that we've received so far from lawmaker or law enforcement. 537 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 4: I haven't received any kind of explanation. 538 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 3: So the key question is, you're telling me Tyler Robinson 539 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 3: did it totally willing to believe that. I don't have 540 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 3: any evidence anyone else did it. You're telling me he 541 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 3: confessed to it, and that's his rifle. Happy to believe that, right. 542 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 3: The missing piece for me is how did a guy 543 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 3: who's apparently kind of mainstream become so non mainstream that 544 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 3: he decided to murder a stranger with the bolt action 545 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 3: thirty at six. That's a big transition, you know, maybe 546 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 3: literally a trusted I don't know what it is. You 547 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 3: need to tell me how that happened. And by the way, 548 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 3: if you don't tell me how that happened, if you 549 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 3: tell me that, we can't talk about it because we 550 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,360 Speaker 3: don't want to, you know, prejudice the jury or it's 551 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 3: going to affect the prosecution or whatever. There's no case 552 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 3: where that's true. I've covered this stuff for thirty five years. 553 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 3: I was a police reporter. You know, they always give 554 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:16,719 Speaker 3: you a sense of what they actually They make their 555 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 3: case in public most of the time true with everybody. 556 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 3: And so I guess what I'm saying is there's great 557 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 3: frustration in a lot of places. There always is with 558 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 3: alternative theories of everything. You know, like, we're mad that 559 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 3: you don't believe the moon landing. We're mad that you don't, 560 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 3: you know, believe this or that story that we're telling. 561 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 3: And my response to them, and it's often directly to them, 562 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 3: is Okay, the onus is kind of on you. You're in charge, 563 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 3: So if you don't provide a believable story, you can't 564 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,719 Speaker 3: blame other people for coming up with a better story. 565 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 3: So it's really your moral obligation, especially if you're a 566 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 3: government official trying to hold this fractious country three d 567 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 3: and fifty million together. It's your moral obligation to hold 568 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 3: this country together with truth and the promise of justice, 569 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 3: and justice comes from truth. You can't have justice on 570 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 3: the basis of lies. Should don't lie to me. Make 571 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 3: every possible effort you can to be transparent. That probably 572 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,440 Speaker 3: are some things you could make a case you can't 573 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 3: tell me right now, you can certainly tell me sixty 574 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 3: two years later after sa JFK was killed. But I 575 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 3: get if there's some things you can't tell me right 576 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 3: now for practical reasons, but most things you can tell me. 577 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 3: And if you're not telling me those things, I have 578 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 3: every right to be suspicious of you, and in fact 579 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 3: to dislike you for fracturing this country into a million 580 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 3: little pieces, which your behavior is doing. 581 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's really well, said Tucker. I want 582 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: to stick also with the memory of Charlie. I found 583 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: it appalling, honestly, I think like you did. How in 584 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: almost the hours after Charlie's death, Prime Minister bebing nets 585 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: on yaho Is on Fox News airwaves making claims like 586 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: he was the greatest supporter of our cause. Of course, 587 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: it was met with almost no immediate condemnation, suspicion, or 588 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: disgust by our political class. And instead, what I noticed 589 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: is that when you appeared at the White House with 590 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,239 Speaker 1: the Vice President and you made a comment saying that 591 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: you thought it was disgusting for foreign leaders, you know, 592 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: to immediately say he lived or died for our cause, 593 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: that that immediately invited condemnation, and I just I don't 594 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: quite understand where the impetus comes from. Where to critique 595 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: is evidence of being obsessed with something, where you know, 596 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: by immediately inserting yourself into our politics, to use the 597 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: memory of a dead American, you know, for your own 598 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: domestic political purposes, and or to basically try and prejudice 599 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: the American people, or let's say, the American right and 600 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: others into believing that the two were a lockstep. I 601 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: found that to be one of the most appalling and disgusting, 602 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: and I would say that about any foreign leader if 603 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: I died in narrained Gramodi was on TV. I promise 604 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: I give you, please attack him and say, hey, get 605 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: his name out of your mouth. He had nothing to 606 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: do with you. He was just an American. How are 607 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: you cutting on that? 608 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 3: I mean, I should admit that I'm silly for being 609 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 3: shocked by it. Death draws vultures, That's what it does. 610 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:20,959 Speaker 3: So this happens every single time. Opportunists and predators glam 611 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 3: on to the memory of a hero in order to 612 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 3: advance their own interest. So I shouldn't have been shocked 613 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 3: by it. I was shocked by it because I was 614 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 3: friends with Charlie So and I in general, by the 615 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 3: way I should say, such as BB, I object to 616 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 3: anybody politicizing a death in the days after if the 617 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 3: widow was still grieving, pull back a little bit. 618 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 4: You don't need to do that. 619 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 3: I just gave a speech, a part of a eulogy 620 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 3: at his funeral two days ago, and I really tried 621 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 3: to keep it completely non political, like I didn't mention 622 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 3: anything having to do with politics. It was only about Christianity. 623 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 3: Of course I was attacked for that too. Whatever, I 624 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 3: don't really care, but I would say on the question 625 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 3: BB specifically, you know, he's a foreign leader. I get 626 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 3: to attack, I get to critique foreign leaders. I don't 627 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 3: hate Babe, but I disagree that, you know, what he's 628 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 3: doing is helping our country. I'm offended by the fact 629 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 3: that you know, he's telling everyone in his region, including 630 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,959 Speaker 3: other leaders, that he controls the US government. That offends 631 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 3: me as which he does a lot, and that offends 632 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 3: me as an American. But as for being obsessed, just 633 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 3: the opposite. I have zero interested in talking about this, 634 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 3: And I have to say, there is something very that 635 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 3: connects anti Semites, and there are anti Semites two Zionists 636 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 3: and there are Zionists, and that is they both see 637 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 3: the world through the same lens. Everything is about Jews, yes, 638 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 3: And I just don't see the world that way at all. 639 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 3: I just don't at all. But they do because hate 640 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 3: and narcissism are twins, it turns out. And I just 641 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 3: feel like, if there's one thing I want to say 642 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 3: to like the Internet, it's like, not everything is about Jews. 643 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 4: I don't know. 644 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 3: That's not an attack on anybody. It's not healthy for 645 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 3: everything to be about any group. 646 00:31:58,640 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 4: How is that good? It's not good. 647 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 3: Doesn't help anybody. So and that's the point. Now I'm obsessed. 648 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 3: Oh gosh, just the opposite. I'm I'm I'm tired of it. 649 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 3: I don't want to talk about this at all. It's 650 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 3: not a core interest of mine. It never has been. 651 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 3: I pray to God it never will. Be obsessed and 652 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 3: not obsessed, that is a fact. 653 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, the obsession, I mean, it just rings oloh to me. 654 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: When you know you have the fifty, you know, we 655 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: have fit legislators and representatives from dozens of states all 656 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: gathering in Israel, you know, pledging basically allegiance and or 657 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: at least undying support, you know, for a foreign government. 658 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: The conundrum and the you know, the contrast in which 659 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: who is obsessed and who is not? It strikes true, 660 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: but you know, to get away just away from that 661 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: and the BB one specifically, there has been quite a 662 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: lot of discussion around Charlie and Israel. You would be 663 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: better positioned. And I want to be very clear, we 664 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: are not in any way implying that Israel had anything 665 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: to do with his death. It is, however, a separate 666 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: question one I believe force on American political discourse by 667 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: the Israeli Prime Minister to sort out that question of 668 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: his views. If he's going to say wholeheartedly that Charlie 669 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: was lockstep with the secular Israeli government and let's say, 670 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,719 Speaker 1: all of its policies, in all of its foreign policy 671 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: and its war policy, et cetera, that does then bear 672 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: discussion for a future, you know, kind of reckoning with 673 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: the American rights relationship to Israel. And as you said, 674 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: there were complicated feelings by Charlie. I believe he actually 675 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: had me on his show almost a month before he died. 676 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: I believe at the bat after seeing me on your program, 677 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: and I think it was very specifically to sort through 678 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: these types of questions. And yet you know, by even 679 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: raising let's say, let's take it out of his personal relationship, 680 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: even with Israel, to the policy question of it, it 681 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: has become like a brewhaha of anti Semitism accusation. Why 682 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: do you do you think it was important to weigh 683 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: in on that. 684 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 3: Because it's so poisonous and it's such an obvious lie, 685 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 3: and I don't you know, you don't need to take 686 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 3: my word for it. Charlie's all over I mean in public. 687 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 3: I knew him well, he was just at my house 688 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 3: so when we talked all about this, because he was 689 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 3: under such intense pressure to cancel a speech that I 690 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 3: was scheduled to give for him in December, and I 691 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 3: said to him many times, I don't need to give 692 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 3: the speech. I don't want to cause you problems. I 693 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 3: don't actually care that much about these issues, like I 694 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 3: don't need to. And he was absolutely and many people 695 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 3: have said this, but he said it directly to me 696 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 3: multiple times. He was adamant that no, I'm not going 697 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 3: to bend so. But Charlie's views on Israel were like 698 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 3: really well known. The fact that he had you on 699 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 3: that he was close to Glenn Greenwall. The invited the 700 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,879 Speaker 3: wonderful Dave Smith, such a decent man, much malign man, 701 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,919 Speaker 3: you know, to turning point in July, like you don't 702 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,839 Speaker 3: need to do that, what are you doing? In fact, 703 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 3: he invited me. None of those people hates Israel at all, 704 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 3: Dave Smith and Glenn a Jewish, you know, like what, 705 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 3: it's nothing with anti Semitism. Charlie's position was really clear, 706 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:06,760 Speaker 3: and he said it a million times. 707 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:07,760 Speaker 4: I like Israel. 708 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 3: I've gone there on vacation. By the way, this could 709 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 3: be me talking because I feel the same way. I've 710 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 3: always liked Israel. I'm very concerned about BB. He was concerned, 711 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 3: very very concerned about b B. By the way, any 712 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 3: who likes Israel's concerned about BB because that country is 713 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:22,879 Speaker 3: in serious trouble because of him. 714 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 4: But anyway, but. 715 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 3: Here's my note, you know, here's my red line. I'm 716 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 3: not going to be told what to say, and I'm 717 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 3: definitely not gonna be told what to say by a 718 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 3: foreign government or its advocates under any circumstance. Because I'm 719 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 3: an American, I care about this country more than any other, 720 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,800 Speaker 3: to the extent that our interests aligned great when they diverge, 721 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 3: I will say so, and I'm not going to be bullied. 722 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 3: He said that a million times in public. He said 723 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 3: it a million times in private, including to me, And 724 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:51,280 Speaker 3: that's just a fact. 725 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 4: And like ask anyone. 726 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 3: Who knew, I'm Andrew Corvette, who's you know, was on 727 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 3: his show every day with him, and a really good 728 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 3: friend of his travel with him. He just said that 729 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,360 Speaker 3: that's exactly what Charlie thought. So anyone claiming otherwise is lying. 730 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 3: I hate the fact we're even having this conversation, I know, 731 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,439 Speaker 3: because I think it diminishes him, It makes his death 732 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 3: political or something like. In the end, like a man's 733 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 3: death first and foremost is a tragedy to the people 734 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 3: who loved him, and that would start with his wife, Erica, 735 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 3: and their two children, and his sister, and his parents 736 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 3: and his staff and all. You know. So it's like 737 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 3: we're not talking about that because again, we have this 738 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 3: twin sort of vortex of narcissism and hate. You have 739 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 3: the Zionists and you have the anti Semites, and they 740 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,959 Speaker 3: feed off each other in this way that drowns out 741 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 3: consideration of anything else. It's so dark, it's so dark, 742 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 3: like it's bad and each one thinks the others the problem. 743 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 3: But like, if you wake up every morning obsessing about Jews, 744 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 3: whether you're a Zionist or an anti Semite, you're not 745 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 3: helping at all. That is a sickness. I gave this 746 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 3: speech the other night, and it was like, literally it 747 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 3: was about Jesus. It was basically reciting the you know, 748 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 3: the Gospel of John or Luke or Matthew. 749 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:00,839 Speaker 4: It's the guy. 750 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,839 Speaker 3: It's the New Testament of the world's biggest religion. And 751 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 3: immediately people start to attach. I didn't even know this, 752 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 3: but they're texting me like you're gonna contected, and it's 753 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,359 Speaker 3: like they hear you, but people on both sides hear 754 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 3: the same thing. It's like this weird brain virus or something. 755 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 3: And I don't I'm not a cook on Israel, obviously, 756 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 3: but I don't think it's good to obsess about anything, 757 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 3: And it's particularly not good for anybody to obsess on Jews, 758 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 3: because it clearly drives you crazy and hurts you and 759 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 3: everyone around you. And I feel like both those groups 760 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 3: are engaged in kind of the same project, and I'm 761 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:40,760 Speaker 3: not getting involved in that project. 762 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 1: I'm glad that you're not, And it's important actually to 763 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: resist that poll because in some ways they try if 764 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: you are critical, let's say up there, Oh yeah, yeah, 765 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,720 Speaker 1: they want to turn Their greatest wish is to actually 766 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 1: turn you into what they are. 767 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,279 Speaker 3: That is so true. I said to someone, a friend 768 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 3: of mine yesterday. It was actually Jewish. But it doesn't 769 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,759 Speaker 3: even matter. I said, I'm gonna deny my haters the 770 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:07,760 Speaker 3: satisfaction of becoming a Nazi. 771 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 4: I'm just not gonna do that. I don't want to. 772 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 4: I don't believe that. I'm not gonna do it. I'm sorry, 773 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 4: I don't care. 774 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's really pointed. 775 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 4: You know. 776 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: The actually last thing here, just on Charlie. I know 777 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,720 Speaker 1: it's a bit sidetracked, but I haven't seen you since 778 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,360 Speaker 1: is I really liked that you were celebrating some of 779 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: his more populous views on economics, and Charlie was working 780 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 1: this out for himself, something you and I had discussed 781 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: as well as just I mean, look, the turning point 782 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: discussions also centers around donors. As you and I know. 783 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 1: You know, Israel is not the only third rail they 784 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: are allowed to touch in the conservative movement. A lot 785 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 1: of it actually centers around basic questions of let's say 786 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,880 Speaker 1: entitlement housing, something you and I have discussed at length. 787 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: What was it like to see him process that, because 788 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: it's like you, you know, what I would know of 789 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 1: Charlie was kind of more of Koch Brothers libertarian more 790 00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 1: view of economics. And then you know, when he had 791 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 1: me on a show, it wasn't just to talk about Israel, 792 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 1: although of course that's all anybody noticed. It was predominantly 793 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 1: to talk about young people not being able to afford 794 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 1: housing and the downstream social effects of how that will 795 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 1: crush a younger generation of which is a totally bipartisan problem, 796 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: one which I think that the left has an answer to. 797 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 1: I don't say it was necessarily a good answer, but 798 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: it is an answer. I don't see it yet from 799 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 1: an organized political movement, And it's one of the things 800 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: he was really grappling with at the very end. And 801 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 1: so I mean, i'd love for you to speak on that, 802 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,759 Speaker 1: as somebody probably encouraged him more on that direction, elevated 803 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: it on your show, and why you think that's important 804 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,280 Speaker 1: direction for anybody in any American political project to explore. 805 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 3: Bless you for saying that. And this is the kind 806 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 3: of reductionism that drives me bunkers that I was just 807 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,760 Speaker 3: yelling about where everything is about Israel or the Jews 808 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 3: or whatever. 809 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 4: Charlie wasn't like that at all. I'm not like that. 810 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 3: You're not like that what we actually talked to but 811 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 3: we're not whispering about Bbie or whatever. Most of our 812 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 3: conversations were whispering about tax rates. And the last interview 813 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 3: that he did with me, which was, you know, several 814 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 3: weeks ago here was one hundred percent about what you 815 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,760 Speaker 3: just said. And his views had evolved. They had evolved 816 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 3: in Israel, that's a fact, but they had evolved even 817 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 3: more on economics and on the point of an economy, 818 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 3: what is the point of why are we doing this? 819 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 3: And you know, you want to have a free market system, 820 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 3: you want to have capitalism. The alternatives seem pretty dark. 821 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,880 Speaker 3: But is the version that we're practicing now actually producing 822 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:36,920 Speaker 3: the results that we want or is it destroying our 823 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 3: society and leading us very quickly toward revolution, like violent revolution? 824 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,759 Speaker 3: And he believed the latter was true, and I do too, 825 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:44,799 Speaker 3: and I know that you do as well. 826 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:46,880 Speaker 4: And he gave this. 827 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 3: Interview it was like two hours, which I'm sure nobody 828 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 3: watched because it wasn't about Israel, but it was amazing 829 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 3: And I'm not touting my own show, and I'm sure 830 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:56,799 Speaker 3: he did them with you too, but it was like 831 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 3: he was so on fire on the topic because he 832 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 3: spends so much time with young people. And I do 833 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,240 Speaker 3: think it's kind of well known now that young people 834 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 3: are definitely mad at Israel. There's no doubt about that. 835 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 3: But they're way matter about the fact that they can't 836 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,280 Speaker 3: like buy a house and get married and have kids, 837 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 3: and they're way matter about that. I think that's my experience. 838 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,800 Speaker 3: But he knew best because he spent the most time 839 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 3: with people under thirty, because his whole life was on 840 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 3: college campuses, so he was reflecting the frustrations and the 841 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:31,360 Speaker 3: views of his members and of people he talked to personally. 842 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:33,000 Speaker 4: And bless him for that. 843 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 3: And I hope that doesn't get lost because I actually 844 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,680 Speaker 3: think on some level, the Israel stuff, like the race stuff, 845 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:42,240 Speaker 3: is kind of you know, it's real on one level, 846 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 3: but it's also a cover for something else, And it's 847 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,320 Speaker 3: a way that we don't have conversations was we're yelling 848 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,400 Speaker 3: about whatever race related or Israel related, we don't have 849 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 3: conversations about like who owns all the houses? And why 850 00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,280 Speaker 3: can't kids buy houses? And why are people like Bill Ackman? 851 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,399 Speaker 3: You know, how is Bill Ackman worth seven or nine 852 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 3: billion dollars or whatever when he clearly has done not 853 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,320 Speaker 3: one useful thing. It's like talking down companies to profit 854 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 3: off them. Like, tell me why that's good. And I 855 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,959 Speaker 3: actually said that at the last turning point event because 856 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 3: I just can't just nothing. It's Billlackman. I don't hate Blackman, 857 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 3: but like he's a symbol. 858 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:20,720 Speaker 4: He's a symbol. 859 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,239 Speaker 3: That's so many Bilackman. It's like, why is our society 860 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 3: awarding the greatest spoils to the people who contribute the least. 861 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:29,400 Speaker 4: That's simple? Is that simple? 862 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 3: You know he's not creative, he's not interesting, he's not smart, 863 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,839 Speaker 3: but he's worth seven billion dollars. Like, just speak solely 864 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,439 Speaker 3: so I can understand how that works. I say that 865 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,879 Speaker 3: immediately you're an anti Semite for attacking Bill Ackman, who 866 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 3: I guess is Jewish. 867 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,439 Speaker 4: I don't. It has nothing to do with it, right, 868 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 4: you see what I'm saying. 869 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 3: So it's a way of pushing you off the trail 870 00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 3: so you shut up. But you know, I'm obviously not 871 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:53,879 Speaker 3: gonna shut up, because I really think it matters. And 872 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 3: Charlie was on this on this topic like hard and 873 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 3: in a way that, oh, you wouldn't want to debate 874 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,000 Speaker 3: him on it because he actually knew the details. He's 875 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 3: very he's a very intense guy intellectually and very committed 876 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,359 Speaker 3: to study. Like he gave up his cell phone once 877 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,799 Speaker 3: a week, no cell phone, and he spent time with 878 00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 3: his wife and children. But he also read a lot. 879 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 3: So he was a formidable character who had a commitment 880 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 3: to studying, and no one wanted to have that conversation 881 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,240 Speaker 3: with him at all, like why are we taxing labor 882 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,319 Speaker 3: at twice the rate of investing? Like what's you know? 883 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:29,200 Speaker 3: Why are we doing that? 884 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:30,319 Speaker 4: Shut up? 885 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,279 Speaker 3: Racist or anti semit fill in the blanks, you know, 886 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 3: anti trans. Bomma said, I'd like whatever I minute. Okay, 887 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 3: So I'm so glad you brought that up. Really well. 888 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,359 Speaker 1: I brought it up because I want to keep nine 889 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,120 Speaker 1: to eleven through the through line? Is that was the 890 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,319 Speaker 1: story of the two thousands? Is that throughout the two 891 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,760 Speaker 1: thousands we're fighting the war in Iraq? The top line story. 892 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,160 Speaker 1: Everyone just kind of ignores the Bush tax cuts and 893 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 1: O three, it's just a bipartisan rubber stamp. We just 894 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,840 Speaker 1: move on with our lives. Eight happens we have a 895 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 1: president elected on the mantra of withdrawing from Iraq. Oops, 896 00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: didn't happen, you know, a mantra of withdrawing the US 897 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 1: war machine, drone strikes escalate? Isis? I mean, so many 898 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 1: of the foreign policy disasters just look, I mean, actually 899 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,480 Speaker 1: this is I would love your take on this. I 900 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:20,960 Speaker 1: don't know if you saw this most recent clip of 901 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:26,280 Speaker 1: David Petraeus asking the al Qaeda leader of Syria wondering 902 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: if he sleeps at night? Okay, and I'm like, I mean, 903 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,759 Speaker 1: on the one level, I laugh. On the other like you, 904 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,480 Speaker 1: I know people who lost limbs, who fighting in Iraq, 905 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,279 Speaker 1: and so for them to watch your four star the 906 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,320 Speaker 1: commander of US forces sit there and glaze the former 907 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,680 Speaker 1: al Qaeda leader, who, by the way, Petreus I believe 908 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:49,480 Speaker 1: now works at a Hedge fund right, which is just 909 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:53,759 Speaker 1: kind of like perfect to this entire story. That was 910 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,840 Speaker 1: also the predominant legacy of nine to L was the 911 00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: distraction while the internal fabric economically societally on every level 912 00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,240 Speaker 1: came apart, and we only now get to deal with it. 913 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 1: It should have been dealt with that. Well. 914 00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 4: Someone said to me about Petraeus and Jelania. 915 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,239 Speaker 3: It's like when former coworkers get together, they you know, 916 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,320 Speaker 3: they kind of catch up on the personal details. Sorry, 917 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,200 Speaker 3: that's dark now, actually, you know, the Jeelanni thing whatever. 918 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:21,839 Speaker 3: I don't want to get into that. His office called 919 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 3: me and try to set up an interview and he 920 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,000 Speaker 3: was in New York. And I'll talk to anybody. I mean, 921 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,719 Speaker 3: I'll talk to anybody and have And by the way, 922 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:29,920 Speaker 3: I don't I don't measure your moral character before we 923 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 3: talk because I think I'm interested in evoking information and 924 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,320 Speaker 3: like that's my job, so I don't. I'm not a 925 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,920 Speaker 3: judger on that level at all. I enjoyed talking to 926 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,360 Speaker 3: Kim Jong Un. Sorry, I don't support his policies, but 927 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,279 Speaker 3: Jelani is like one of the very few or it's like, 928 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,200 Speaker 3: I'm not gonna do that because I don't want to 929 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:47,719 Speaker 3: be pulled into that propaganda campaign because. 930 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 4: It's so dark. Like how in the world. 931 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,880 Speaker 3: That's like right out of animal farm where the pigs 932 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,279 Speaker 3: and the farmers in the end are indistinguishable from each other. 933 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,920 Speaker 3: That's like, really, al Qaeda is now running Syria and 934 00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,480 Speaker 3: we're claiming that's better, better than Asad or a secular 935 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:04,880 Speaker 3: guy who protected the Alo Whites and the Christians. 936 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:06,080 Speaker 4: They are all the religious minorities. 937 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,239 Speaker 3: How is that bad? Well, it was bad because it 938 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:10,400 Speaker 3: was against Israel's interests. 939 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:10,840 Speaker 4: That's why. 940 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:12,960 Speaker 3: That's why the media told us it was bad. They 941 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,840 Speaker 3: wanted him out. And Okay, I get it. I'm not 942 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:17,319 Speaker 3: mad at them for wanting him out. They have their 943 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 3: own interest, But how is that in the interest of Christians? 944 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,240 Speaker 3: Like that's which is my perspective because I'm a Christian, 945 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:24,840 Speaker 3: and it's not. And now you have Jelani and all 946 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:29,360 Speaker 3: these Christians are getting murdered and we allowed that because 947 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,760 Speaker 3: of foreign government wanted us too. That's just a fact. 948 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,000 Speaker 3: And shut up, defender of Assad. And it's like, what, 949 00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,560 Speaker 3: I don't even care anymore. But I'm definitely not going 950 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:43,080 Speaker 3: to participate in your rehabilitation campaign for a guy who's 951 00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:46,160 Speaker 3: overseeing the murder of religious minorities, who was an al 952 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,239 Speaker 3: Qaeda leader. I thought, if there was one thing that 953 00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:51,359 Speaker 3: we could all agree on, it's al Qaeda is bad. 954 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:53,280 Speaker 4: Isis is bad? Like that's just bad. 955 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:55,040 Speaker 3: And if you wind up, if you wake up in 956 00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,960 Speaker 3: a world where David Petraeus is like, how is it 957 00:46:58,000 --> 00:46:58,839 Speaker 3: over an isis world? 958 00:46:58,840 --> 00:46:59,800 Speaker 4: Do you guys sleeping? Okay? 959 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,680 Speaker 3: Then you know, like the charade is total. Well, it's 960 00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,160 Speaker 3: just it's total, and it's bewildering for people. And I 961 00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,960 Speaker 3: worry about our country. Actually, I worry about people flipping 962 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,200 Speaker 3: out over stuff like this over time. 963 00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 1: That made me want to flip out because it's twenty 964 00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 1: four years after nine to eleven, and I go, so, 965 00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:17,279 Speaker 1: what was the point of war on terror and of 966 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,839 Speaker 1: destroying it and our bankruptcy and everything abroad? If we're 967 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,399 Speaker 1: just going to end it by celebrating al Qaeda coming 968 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,120 Speaker 1: into power so that the Greater Israel project can march 969 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 1: on into a portion of Syria? 970 00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:28,440 Speaker 3: Was that? 971 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:29,000 Speaker 4: Really? This? 972 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:31,400 Speaker 1: That was the point this entire time? Because if you 973 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:33,680 Speaker 1: told me that in you know, nine to twelve o three, 974 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,080 Speaker 1: I wouldn't even I would never have believed you. And 975 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,880 Speaker 1: I was a crank teenager who believed the worst about 976 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,719 Speaker 1: the Bush administration, and even I would be like, nah, 977 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:43,480 Speaker 1: that there's no way, man. 978 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,359 Speaker 3: Well you're better off being a crank. I'm so glad 979 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,960 Speaker 3: you were a crank. I was a crank teenager too. Actually, 980 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,200 Speaker 3: there's a different set of issues, of course, but I 981 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,640 Speaker 3: don't know how I became so conventional, and by the way, 982 00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:58,600 Speaker 3: by Washington standards, I was like unconventional, right, I mean, 983 00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:02,560 Speaker 3: very unconventional. But it was incredible how conventional I actually was, 984 00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:04,160 Speaker 3: and I'm ashamed of that. 985 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:05,080 Speaker 4: So I don't know. 986 00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,239 Speaker 3: I hope that all of your younger listeners they don't 987 00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,520 Speaker 3: need the reminder from me at fifty six to be 988 00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:12,760 Speaker 3: to think for yourself. 989 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:14,080 Speaker 4: I guess they've already arrived there. 990 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:17,440 Speaker 3: But I don't think there are too many people who 991 00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,080 Speaker 3: are going to believe David Petraeus left in the United States. 992 00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,520 Speaker 4: Are there? Probably not, I would hope. 993 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,239 Speaker 1: So not just on that, but the system which gave 994 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:29,239 Speaker 1: rise to this entire machine. I mean, Tucker, how many 995 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,280 Speaker 1: years of our careers did we dedicate to the Syrian 996 00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,680 Speaker 1: Civil War? And you know, all of the not just 997 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:40,080 Speaker 1: assade but regime change, and the funding the moderate rebels, 998 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,839 Speaker 1: the CIA, and then the guy running that ends up 999 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,799 Speaker 1: the SEC death under Biden. And it's the same through 1000 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:50,000 Speaker 1: line of nine to eleven, which is that you only 1001 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:54,280 Speaker 1: fail upwards. In this town. I remember seeing Paul Wolfowitz 1002 00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:56,520 Speaker 1: just take a stroll. I think it was the day 1003 00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,960 Speaker 1: after the Paris attacks, and I just couldn't stop thinking 1004 00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,520 Speaker 1: looking at him, being like, this is your fault, man like, 1005 00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:05,640 Speaker 1: And I know that's reductive, but it's also not in 1006 00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,759 Speaker 1: a way. And I think what I would hope from 1007 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,879 Speaker 1: your docuseries the takeaway for our younger audience and your 1008 00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,960 Speaker 1: younger audience and other people listening is, you know, the 1009 00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,560 Speaker 1: maybe apocryphal Mark Twain quote is history doesn't repeat itself, 1010 00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 1: but it rhymes, and it's rhyming a little bit too 1011 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,160 Speaker 1: often lately. And yeah, I just I really appreciate you 1012 00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,960 Speaker 1: diving back into the topic and thinking about it in 1013 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,359 Speaker 1: the context of nine to eleven, because I actually think 1014 00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:32,879 Speaker 1: it's never been more urgent than it is right now. 1015 00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,840 Speaker 1: I totally agree Soger, thank you, Thank you, Tucker. I 1016 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:37,600 Speaker 1: appreciate your time.