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Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from iHeartRadio. Hey there,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland.

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Speaker 1: I'm an executive producer with iHeartRadio, and how the tech

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Speaker 1: are you? It's time for a tech Stuff classic episode.

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Speaker 1: This episode originally published March first, twenty seventeen. It is

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Speaker 1: titled how Video Game Emulators Work. And I've often thought

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Speaker 1: about getting like an Arcade setup running a video game emulator.

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Speaker 1: Never done it because while most of those titles that

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Speaker 1: I would want to play are not really available through

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Speaker 1: any legitimate means, I can't reconcile the fact that a

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Speaker 1: lot of video game emulator solutions involve essentially just kind

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Speaker 1: of stealing intellectual property. But let's listen to this classic episode.

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Speaker 1: Just letting you guys know, in case you're wondering, like,

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Speaker 1: whys Jonathan sound so weird, or rather more weird than

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Speaker 1: he normally sounds, is because I am recovering from said cold,

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Speaker 1: and my voice is probably somewhere between eighty and ninety

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Speaker 1: percent back.

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Speaker 2: So got that out of the way.

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Speaker 1: Today's episode is actually coming to us courtesy of a

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Speaker 1: little listener male or actually it's from a listener tweet Now,

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Speaker 1: remember the tech stuff Twitter handle is tech Stuff HSW

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Speaker 1: so if you tweet me there, I will see it.

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Speaker 1: And this one comes from Dan who says I'd love

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Speaker 1: to hear a show on how video game emulators work.

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Speaker 1: So today we're going to explore what an emulator is,

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Speaker 1: why they're necessary, in how they work. Now, first of all,

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Speaker 1: I should say there are a lot of different types

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Speaker 1: of emulators. It's not just for the video game world,

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Speaker 1: but I'm going to focus specifically on video games. And

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Speaker 1: you might wonder our, right, So what is an emulator? Well,

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Speaker 1: it does what it sounds like. It emulates some other technology,

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Speaker 1: which means it's attempting to replicate how another technology works

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Speaker 1: or what it does. Now, sometimes the emulator does this

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Speaker 1: in a very different way than the original technology did.

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Speaker 1: And more often than not, an emulator relies on software

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Speaker 1: at least partly to replicate a particular piece of a

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Speaker 1: hardware's functionality. So you can think of emulators as being

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Speaker 1: at least partly a virtual machine. Some of the components

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Speaker 1: may actually be physical parts that are original to whatever

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Speaker 1: the technology you're trying to emulate was. Other components are

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Speaker 1: going to be purely software, and it's helpful to use

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Speaker 1: a little analogy here to understand what an emulator tries

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Speaker 1: to do.

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Speaker 2: So let's say you got two people.

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Speaker 1: And you know what, let's give them some random name. So,

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Speaker 1: just picking out of the air, I'm going to go

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Speaker 1: with Josh and Chuck. Now, both Josh and Chuck are

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Speaker 1: in a jungle, but they are separated, so they're each

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Speaker 1: individually in a jungle. Both are running from something. Let's

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Speaker 1: say they're being chased by aggressive badgers. So both of

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Speaker 1: them have managed to put some distance between themselves and

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Speaker 1: the fur balls of fury chasing them. And then each

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Speaker 1: of them individually comes to the edge of a pit

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Speaker 1: two different pits. So Josh is at one pit, Chuck

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Speaker 1: is at a different pit. There's no way around the pits.

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Speaker 1: There's too much overgrowth on either side, so you have

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Speaker 1: to go over it somehow, but you can't go around.

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Speaker 1: They each have a short amount of time to figure

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Speaker 1: out a way around, or rather over.

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Speaker 2: Their respective pits.

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Speaker 1: So Josh decides what he's going to do is fashion

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Speaker 1: a makeshift bridge out of some branches on the ground

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Speaker 1: and some vines, and so he binds them together and

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Speaker 1: he lays the bridge across the pit he crosses gingerly across,

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Speaker 1: because we know that Josh's sense of balance is somewhat

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Speaker 1: precarious under the best of circumstances. He gets to the

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Speaker 1: other side and then he kicks the bridge back into

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Speaker 1: the pit so that the badgers can't just follow him across,

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Speaker 1: and then he continues on his merry way. Meanwhile, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, uses a vine to tie it

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Speaker 1: to a branch and use that as kind of a

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Speaker 1: grappling hook. He tosses it up into the limbs overhead

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Speaker 1: and it catches, and so then he swings Tarzan like,

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Speaker 1: bellowing the whole time, and he gets to the other side.

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Speaker 1: Then he jerks the vine and dislodges the branch so

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Speaker 1: that it falls down and throws that into the pit

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Speaker 1: just in case. Badgers can also swing across pits. But

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Speaker 1: that's because he has not yet read how badgers work

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Speaker 1: on HowStuffWorks dot com. So both Josh and Chuck got

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Speaker 1: across their respective pits, but they both did so in

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Speaker 1: very different ways. The end result was the same, but

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Speaker 1: the pathway was different. That's sort of what emulators do.

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Speaker 1: They're meant to produce a result that's identical to another technology,

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Speaker 1: even if the pathway to get there is very different.

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Speaker 1: A video game emulator is really meant to replicate how

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Speaker 1: a specific machine works so that you can play the

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Speaker 1: games that were designed for that machine, typically on a

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Speaker 1: computer a PC. So an emulator could be a specific

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Speaker 1: arcade game emulator, like for a very specific title, or

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Speaker 1: it could be a video game console emulator, which means

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Speaker 1: it could act like a video game console virtually and

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Speaker 1: you could play the games made for that console on

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Speaker 1: your computer. The end result is that you can play

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Speaker 1: those games meant for one device on a totally different device,

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Speaker 1: and as I said before, typically we're talking about a

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Speaker 1: personal computer. Now, emulators are not the same thing as ports.

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Speaker 1: A ported game is one that developers originally created for

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Speaker 1: one architecture system and then they adapt that game for

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Speaker 1: a totally different system. So the easiest example is a

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Speaker 1: game that originally comes out on the PlayStation might get

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Speaker 1: ported to the Xbox. These are totally different architectures. The

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Speaker 1: video game consoles work in very different ways, so you

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Speaker 1: can't just reformat and put it on an Xbox one

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Speaker 1: disk and expect it to work. You actually have to

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Speaker 1: redesign parts of the game that's what porting is all

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Speaker 1: about now. Because each system, whether it's Xbox or PlayStation

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Speaker 1: or mac os or Windows, works in a very specific way.

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Speaker 2: Those programs are.

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Speaker 1: Not compatible, but a port can be reworked so that

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Speaker 1: it will operate on those new systems. Now, an emulator

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Speaker 1: is different. An emulator can run a game meant for

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Speaker 1: one system on a totally different system because the emulator

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Speaker 1: is doing the work.

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Speaker 2: So instead of.

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Speaker 1: Giving a game to a new group of developers and

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Speaker 1: saying I need you to make this version of the

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Speaker 1: game playable for this other system, you have a piece

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Speaker 1: of software that pretends that it is the other system,

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Speaker 1: and that way you don't have to have developers change

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Speaker 1: the code of the of the original game. You do

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Speaker 1: have to have developers create the emulator. So it really

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Speaker 1: just shifts the world from adapting a game to a

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Speaker 1: different system to adapting an emulator to be able to

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Speaker 1: work on whatever target machine you're talking about. Like I said,

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Speaker 1: typically a PC, more often than not it's a Windows

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Speaker 1: based PC, but you also see them for Unix and

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Speaker 1: mac os, so it's not like it's exclusive to Windows machines.

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Speaker 1: Now it's necessary because video game consoles and even arcade

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Speaker 1: games like the old arcade game cabinets, they have specific

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Speaker 1: hardware and software architecture to them. So some of those

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Speaker 1: old arcade machines don't really even have much software at all.

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Speaker 1: It's like the lightest level of software. It's mostly circuitry,

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Speaker 1: like hard coded circuitry. The game itself is represented in

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Speaker 1: the circuits that are on the board within the arcade cabinet.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like the old cartridge based systems if

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Speaker 1: you had one of those, like the old Nintendo Entertainment

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Speaker 1: System or Super Nintendo or the Atari. Those are video

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Speaker 1: games that would be programmed onto a circuit board that's

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Speaker 1: housed inside of a cartridge, and you insert the cartridge

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Speaker 1: into the video game console and some contacts between the

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Speaker 1: console and the cartridge allow the console to read that

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Speaker 1: information and then you're able to play the game. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: you don't have, for most PCs, a cartridge based system

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Speaker 1: that can accept these games in this way. Now, in

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Speaker 1: the olden days, arcade games contained a circuit board unique

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Speaker 1: to that particular game. So in other words, an Asteroid's

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Speaker 1: machine was an Asteroids machine. That's all there was to it,

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Speaker 1: because the circuit board had the Asteroids game on it.

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Speaker 1: If you opened up a pac Man machine and you

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Speaker 1: opened up a Donkey Kong machine, you'd find two different

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Speaker 1: circuit boards. The pac Man one and the Donkey Kong

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Speaker 1: one would be unique to those arcade games.

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Speaker 2: They did have a very.

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Speaker 1: Low level of software on the machines, on the circuit

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Speaker 1: boards called BIOS now that stands for Basic Input Output System,

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Speaker 1: and really it's just a foundational software layer. It's really

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Speaker 1: just meant to be responsible for managing the relationship between

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Speaker 1: input devices like a push button or a joystick or

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Speaker 1: that sort of stuff, and the output devices like the monitor,

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Speaker 1: or even just what the game is supposed to do

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Speaker 1: whenever you enact on those input devices. So the input

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Speaker 1: could be a jump button, for example, you press the

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Speaker 1: button and the output is you see your character jumping

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Speaker 1: on the display. But keep in mind, the actual output

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Speaker 1: is really the code for jumping and a signal to

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Speaker 1: the arcade machine's display. Right, the display is not making

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Speaker 1: your character jump. That's being controlled by the code of

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Speaker 1: the arcade machine itself. It's reflected on the monitor in

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Speaker 1: a way that you can see by having the little

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Speaker 1: character jump up.

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Speaker 2: In the air.

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Speaker 1: Now, the game's circuit board handled everything else in those

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Speaker 1: old machines, Besides that input output, the hardware was handling everything.

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Speaker 1: It was just programmed directly onto the circuit board, and

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Speaker 1: that included the game's sound, its graphics engine, its logic.

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Speaker 1: If you had an Arcade cabinet and you wanted to

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Speaker 1: switch out games. Let's say you've got a Pacmand cabinet

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Speaker 1: and you think I'm gonna put Donkey Kong in this cabinet,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna I want to switch out the games. What

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Speaker 1: you had to do was gut the machine. You had

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Speaker 1: to take all that circuitry and those connections out of

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Speaker 1: the machine, the Pacman machine, and replace them with the

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Speaker 1: ones from a Donkey Kong machine. You couldn't just swap

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Speaker 1: out a certain element. You had to do pretty extensive surgery.

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Speaker 1: It took some time, usually, you know, half hour an

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Speaker 1: hour easy to switch these things out. Later on, it

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Speaker 1: got a little simplified. First, it got simplified in the

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Speaker 1: the adoption of some more standardized connectors. So that meant

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Speaker 1: that you could start to disconnect a circuit board from

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Speaker 1: the rest of a system, and assuming that the control

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Speaker 1: scheme is similar from the old game to the new game,

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Speaker 1: you could plug the new circuit board into a cabinet

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Speaker 1: and it would work pretty well. Now, obviously, that only

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Speaker 1: works if your control scheme is the same. So, for example,

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Speaker 1: if you're playing pac Man, there's no jump button, right,

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Speaker 1: there's a player one, a player two, and then there's

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Speaker 1: the joystick that has for motion control, and you just

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Speaker 1: control the pac Man character that way. But let's say

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Speaker 1: you want to play Centipede. Centipede is a very different

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Speaker 1: type of game. It has a rollerball controller, so you

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Speaker 1: have a ball that you swipe and you can move

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Speaker 1: your character that way, and it has a fire button

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Speaker 1: where you shoot whenever you press the button. So if

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Speaker 1: you were to switch out the pac Man to the

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Speaker 1: Centipede boards, assuming that they had these universal connectors, you

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Speaker 1: still would have to switch out the control system as well,

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Speaker 1: or else you wouldn't really be able to control the

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Speaker 1: game Centipede the way it was meant to be played,

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Speaker 1: Particularly since you wouldn't have a fire button, that would

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Speaker 1: be a problem. Later on, arcade manufacturers would create machines

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Speaker 1: that had the basic hardware set up so that different

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Speaker 1: games could be plugged into the system more like a

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Speaker 1: video game console. So this was even simpler than the

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Speaker 1: universal kind of standardized controls. This was more about like

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Speaker 1: a set structure where you plug in a chip essentially

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Speaker 1: that has the game on it and everything else remains

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Speaker 1: the same. So kind of like a video game console

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Speaker 1: where if you're playing a Nintendo and you wanted to

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Speaker 1: stop playing Super Mario Brothers instead play Gumshoe, then you

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Speaker 1: could turn off the console, pull one cartridge out, put

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Speaker 1: the other cartridge in, turn it on, and there you go.

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Speaker 1: Same sort of thing with these old arcade machines. Once

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Speaker 1: they got to this level of sophistication, it was still

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Speaker 1: a bit of a pain in the butt because he

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Speaker 1: still had to open everything up and get in among

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Speaker 1: all the wires and stuff, but it was still way

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Speaker 1: faster than the old days where you had to replace

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Speaker 1: everything essentially. Now the games themselves are called ROMs.

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Speaker 2: MS.

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Speaker 1: Now ROM is an acronym. It stands for read only memory.

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Speaker 1: That meant the player or anyone else couldn't write anything

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Speaker 1: to the game. Now, they might have something on the

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Speaker 1: circuit board, some temporary memory in the arcade machine that

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Speaker 1: would allow players to put in initials next to high score,

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Speaker 1: and that would be stored in that memory CHEP, but

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Speaker 1: the game itself was immutable. You could not change the game.

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Speaker 1: It was the computer equivalent of being set in stone.

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Speaker 1: So in the emulator world, we generally refer to game

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Speaker 1: files as in the software that represents that game as

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Speaker 1: a ROM. If you've ever used an emulator, you're probably

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Speaker 1: familiar with ROM. And there's a big legality question people

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Speaker 1: have when it comes to ROMs, and I'll get to

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Speaker 1: that later in the episode. At the end, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to spend time talking about the legality of read only

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Speaker 1: memory files and whether or not it is legal to

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Speaker 1: download them, But for now, let's just focus on the

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Speaker 1: technical side of things. We'll get to the legal stuff

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Speaker 1: at the end. So you got various types of games,

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Speaker 1: each designed to run on specific hardware. And there are

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Speaker 1: the standalone arcade machines that each had their own peculiar architecture.

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Speaker 1: They're the later arcade machines that could accept different chips,

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Speaker 1: with each chip containing a different game. And then there

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Speaker 1: are the video game consoles and their proprietary game technologies.

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Speaker 1: You even got old computer games that were designed to

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Speaker 1: run on slower machines with much less computing power than

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Speaker 1: today's PCs. A lot of those are impossible to play

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Speaker 1: on later machines because they just they can't handle the

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Speaker 1: fact that they've got access to all that processing power.

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Speaker 1: So you might even need an emulator for a PC

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Speaker 1: based game on a PC.

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Speaker 2: If it's old enough.

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Speaker 1: If it's an old game, you may need an emulator

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Speaker 1: in order to run it a virtual machine of some sort.

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Speaker 1: Emulators are what let you run those games designed for

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Speaker 1: those older or other devices on a modern machine. So

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Speaker 1: I've got more to say about this, but before I

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Speaker 1: get into it, let's take a quick break to thank

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Speaker 1: our sponsor.

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Speaker 2: All right, we're back now.

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Speaker 1: There are two big categories for emulators, and this doesn't

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Speaker 1: depend upon the type of console or game you're trying

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Speaker 1: to emulate. It's universal. These two big categories are universal

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Speaker 1: no matter what system you're trying to emulate, so all

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Speaker 1: different systems, all different arcade games, emulators can fall into

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Speaker 1: one of two categories. There's low level emulation and there's

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Speaker 1: high level emulation. And it might be a little counterintuitive

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Speaker 1: what these mean, but with low level emulation, programmers are

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Speaker 1: trying to create software and or hardware that can pretend

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Speaker 1: to be the emulated hardware. In other words, you're trying

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Speaker 1: to replicate the actual mechanics, although it's not mechanical, it's electronic,

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Speaker 1: but the actual physical process I guess physical process doesn't

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Speaker 1: really work either, right, the actual logical process of the

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Speaker 1: original game system or arcade machine. So you want your

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Speaker 1: system to look from a high level as close to

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Speaker 1: that original system as you possibly can get it. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: that actually means including original hardware from the target machine

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Speaker 1: with the emulator, so that means you're not just replicating

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Speaker 1: the target machine, you're using some of its actual parts.

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Speaker 1: You're in part rebuilding the actual original machine. In fact,

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Speaker 1: the first couple of models of the PlayStation three actually

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Speaker 1: contained elements of the PlayStation two inside it in order

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Speaker 1: to provide some backwards capability. So if you wanted to

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Speaker 1: play a PlayStation two game on one of those early

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Speaker 1: PS three models, instead of it using the typical PS

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Speaker 1: three equipment inside the console, it would actually hand that

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Speaker 1: off to the PS two elements. So it was almost

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Speaker 1: like having two different video game consoles in the same box.

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Speaker 2: You didn't know it.

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Speaker 1: As a consumer, like, you don't see any of that happening.

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Speaker 1: It's all happening inside the console. But it wasn't a

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Speaker 1: PS three system reading the information and then playing it

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Speaker 1: on your screen. It was actually a PS two system

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Speaker 1: housed inside that PS three, So the PS three's core

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Speaker 1: system was acting as the emulator, but it was using

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Speaker 1: PS two hardware to actually read the information off of discs. Now,

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Speaker 1: if you're using something like an sixty four emulator, the

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Speaker 1: emulator's trying to replicate the way the N sixty four

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Speaker 1: is hardware worked, and the more sophisticated that target system is,

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Speaker 1: the more difficult this is to do.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 1: With low level emulation, the amount of processing power you

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Speaker 1: need on your computer to run the emulator so that

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Speaker 1: you can play those games the way they were meant

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Speaker 1: to be played. That processing power demand increases as the

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Speaker 1: complexity of the video game system you're emulating increases, which

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Speaker 1: makes sense, right. The more complicated the system, the greater

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Speaker 1: the demands are in processing power, particularly if the system

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Speaker 1: you're trying to emulate is remarkably different from PC architecture,

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Speaker 1: because your processors having to handle all of those differences

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Speaker 1: and it ends up creating a bigger drain on the

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Speaker 1: processor's ability. So if you've ever played a video game emulator,

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Speaker 1: and you've run a game and you're thinking, this thing

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Speaker 1: as slow as molasses, I'm barely able to get this

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Speaker 1: character moving. It's probably because you're experiencing that problem that

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Speaker 1: the emulator is probably a low level emulator. It's trying

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Speaker 1: to replicate that original system as closely as possible, and

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Speaker 1: as a result, your processor is having to work super

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Speaker 1: hard to keep up, even though the game might be

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Speaker 1: fairly simple. It can be very frustrating because you might

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Speaker 1: be playing a game that came out in like the

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Speaker 1: late eighties, and you're thinking, it's twenty seventeen. My computer

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Speaker 1: should be able to run this with no problem. But

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Speaker 1: the truth is the processor is trying to handle a

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Speaker 1: system so different from itself that that's what's causing the

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Speaker 1: slow down. I experienced this with a friend who had

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Speaker 1: an Arcade emulator, and he's had Ghosts and Goblins on there.

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Speaker 1: And I love that game. I loved it when it

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Speaker 1: came out, but as I started to play it, I thought,

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Speaker 1: this game is way slower than and I remember it

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Speaker 1: am I just remember getting incorrectly.

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Speaker 2: Nope.

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Speaker 1: Turned out it was because the emulator was putting too

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Speaker 1: great a demand on his system's processor, and as a result,

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Speaker 1: the game I was playing was much slower than what

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Speaker 1: it was supposed to be, and it's really hard to

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Speaker 1: make low level emulators efficient. Some games and systems require

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Speaker 1: multiple synchronization processes to make sure all the emulated components

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Speaker 1: are working together properly. So the more frequently that happens,

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Speaker 1: the more times that an emulator has to say, hey,

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Speaker 1: is everything all right and send that message out to

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Speaker 1: all the different components and wait for a response, the

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Speaker 1: more demands it places on that processor. So if you

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Speaker 1: want to have a really good low level emulator, you

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Speaker 1: need a computer with like a screaming fast processor. And

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Speaker 1: that could be again a little counterintuitive. You might think, well,

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Speaker 1: this game can run the latest computer games with no

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Speaker 1: frame rate issues at the highest graphic setting, everything's awesome,

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Speaker 1: But when I try to run this emulated game, everything

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Speaker 1: slows down. Why is that? It's because of this. Now,

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Speaker 1: then you have high level emulation. This is very different.

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Speaker 1: High level emulation simulates the functions of hardware, but doesn't

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Speaker 1: try to replicate those functions. So, in other words, all

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Speaker 1: it wants to do is get to that end result.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't care if it follows the same path as

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Speaker 1: the hardware. So this gets back to that Josh and

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Speaker 1: Chuck example I gave at the top of the show.

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Speaker 1: Both the vine and the bridge will get Chuck and

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Speaker 1: Josh across the pit, but they do it in different ways.

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Speaker 1: The end result is the same. That's what high level

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Speaker 1: emulation aims to do, so we call this abstraction. We

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Speaker 1: are able to create an environment in which a game

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Speaker 1: will work even if you're using totally different hardware because

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Speaker 1: of this level of abstraction. This is particularly handy for

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Speaker 1: game developers, not just people who want to play games,

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Speaker 1: but people who are making games, because you can develop

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Speaker 1: a game for a specific system using a level of abstraction,

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Speaker 1: and you can use whatever system you prefer to develop on.

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Speaker 1: So let's say you're a developer and that you use

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Speaker 1: a Mac as you're a computer, but you're developing a

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Speaker 1: game for the Xbox. A level of abstraction allows you

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Speaker 1: to do this on a virtual level, so that you're

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Speaker 1: developing an Xbox game in a Mac environment and you

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Speaker 1: don't have to have special equipment or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: You've abstracted all of the elements into a virtual realm.

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Speaker 1: So high level emulation uses shorthand for basic operations instead

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Speaker 1: of a specific pathway. So a low level emulator would

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Speaker 1: try to replicate the exact way a game saves information.

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Speaker 1: For example, a high level emulator would just say save

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Speaker 1: this data to the storage drive, and firmware would actually

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Speaker 1: handle the transaction. So the software hands it off to

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Speaker 1: the firmware that says, all right, what's the most efficient

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Speaker 1: way for me to do the task I've been asked

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Speaker 1: to do? That puts the least demand on the processor.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like a voice activated assistant in a way.

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Speaker 1: As these systems get more robust, you can ask for

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Speaker 1: the same information in many different ways. So for example,

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Speaker 1: if I had an iPhone, I could ask Siri what

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Speaker 1: is the weather like outside? Or I could ask Siri

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Speaker 1: is it raining?

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Speaker 2: Now? Both of those questions.

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Speaker 1: Will get me a weather answer from Siri because the

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Speaker 1: system can actually handle the different ways to request essentially

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Speaker 1: the same information. Hardware abstraction does something similar. It interprets

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Speaker 1: a request and then it does the leg work to

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Speaker 1: fulfill that request. Now, there are three main ways that

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Speaker 1: high level emulators simulate hardware functions. The first is called interpreting.

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Speaker 1: The emulator will go through the code of the game

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Speaker 1: line by line in chunks and replicate what the instructions

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Speaker 1: are supposed to do, so, interpreting makes sense right like you,

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like if you were to read a

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Speaker 1: story and then tell somebody what does the story say?

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Speaker 1: Like what are the basic points of the story. Or

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Speaker 1: you're trying to tell someone about a movie you've seen

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Speaker 1: and you're giving them kind of a high level, bullet

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Speaker 1: point rundown of what the plot was all about. That's

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Speaker 1: what interpreting does, except it does it with code. Next

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Speaker 1: is a strategy called dynamic recompiling. Now that method actually

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Speaker 1: looks at blocks of code, looks at the instructions that

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Speaker 1: are the processor is supposed to carry out according to

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Speaker 1: that code, and then it starts looking for a more

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Speaker 1: efficient or optimized way to run those same instructions on

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Speaker 1: the actual computer you are using. So, in other words,

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Speaker 1: it's recom hiling the code for a different piece of hardware.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like saying, all right, this was written

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Speaker 1: for an Atari twenty six hundred, I want to rewrite

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Speaker 1: it so that the same result will happen on the

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Speaker 1: PC that is running the software. Very interesting that this

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Speaker 1: can be done on an abstract level. And finally, there's

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Speaker 1: a strategy called list interception. Now this is relevant for

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Speaker 1: computers that use coprocessors, and for systems that you're trying

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Speaker 1: to emulate that also had coprocessors. Most PCs these days

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Speaker 1: have a coprocessor. The graphics processing unit is a coprocessor. Now,

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Speaker 1: those chips are meant to handle graphics, but they're also

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00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 1: really handy for parallel processing. You might have heard that

435
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: a lot of hackers use GPUs in order to do

436
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: brute force attacks against secure systems. This is because GPUs

437
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: can process stuff in parallel, which means you can have

438
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: a bunch of parallel processors all tackling the same problem,

439
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 1: going through different potential solutions, and that cuts down on

440
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 1: the amount of time it takes for you to find

441
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: the real answer. So with list interception, an emulator interrupts

442
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,439
Speaker 1: a command list sent to the original device's coprocessor and

443
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 1: turns that into instructions that the actual host computer's graphics

444
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 1: processing unit can handle. So it's kind of like translating

445
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: text from one language to another. It intercepts the message

446
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: says okay, well, the GPU can't understand this the way

447
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,239
Speaker 1: it's written, but I can take these instructions rewrite it

448
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: in a way that the GPU understands. And send it along,

449
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 1: And that's how that works. The big advantage of high

450
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 1: level emulators over low level emulators is that they require

451
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: less processing power to run games. So a well designed

452
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 1: high level emulator can run titles smoothly on a modest PC.

453
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 1: You don't need to have a killer gaming rig, but

454
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: a low level emulator would require that bf yeer processor

455
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: to handle demands. Now, the flip side is a low

456
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 1: level emulator tends to be more accurate when replicating a game,

457
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 1: and a high level emulator might not be able to

458
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: replicate all the things the game does because it's not

459
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 1: as specific to that system, like, it's not replicating the

460
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: system as faithfully.

461
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: As a low level emulator would. So there are trade offs.

462
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: So let's say you want to invest in an emulator

463
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 1: and some games, and just for argument's sake, let's say

464
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: that there's a legal way for you to buy the

465
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: games rather than just download them willy nilly. Like I

466
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 1: said before, I'm going to talk more about the legality

467
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: of all of this at the end of the show.

468
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: So what system should you go for if you want

469
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 1: an emulator? Well, that really depends on several factors. For one,

470
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: are you missed their money bags or miss money bags,

471
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: because if money's not an object, you might as well

472
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: go bonkers and trick out a nice low level emulator

473
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 1: system with a really really good gaming rig PC to

474
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: get the most authentic experience when you PLoP down to

475
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: a rousing game of Burger Time or Gauntlet two. Low

476
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: level emulators, particularly ones that include actual hardware used by

477
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: the system you're trying to emulate, get pretty pricy, and

478
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: remember you got to have that powerful processor to run

479
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: those emulators.

480
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 2: And as opposed to.

481
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 1: The high level emulator types, high level emulators don't require

482
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: as much horsepower from the host computer, which brings the

483
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 1: cost down. You don't need to buy a super fast computer.

484
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,239
Speaker 1: In fact, you may already have a machine more than

485
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: capable of running a high level emulator program, so you

486
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: won't have to spring for that screaming gaming rig with

487
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: you would like for a low level emulator. But sometimes

488
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: those high level emulators cannot perfectly replicate whatever the target

489
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: system is the emulated system, so you might find certain

490
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: games don't have all the bells and whistles that they should,

491
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: and if you might even be unplayable, like you might

492
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: get a title a rom for a game you love,

493
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: and you have an emulator, a high level emulator for

494
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: that system or for that machine, and then you find

495
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: out you still can't play the game. Well, it might

496
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: not be that the file you got is corrupt.

497
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 2: It may be that the.

498
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: Emulator just isn't capable of replicating that game the way

499
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: it should. Now, mostly that depends upon the way the

500
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: original game developers programmed the original game. If they use

501
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: a lot of weird shortcuts and hacks to create the

502
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: game that would work on the target system, it may

503
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: not work on an emulated system. So in other words,

504
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: like let's say I've developed a game for the original Nintendo,

505
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: and the original Nintendo could totally handle these sort of

506
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: cludgy hacked processes I've created because I wanted to do

507
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: it to make a bunch of shortcuts. Like the code

508
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: looks messy as heck. If you look at the code,

509
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: but the gameplay doesn't reflect that, it's just fine. But

510
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: then you pull it over onto an emulaid system that's

511
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: more designed to handle games that are written to the

512
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: standard of Nintendo as opposed to just getting it done,

513
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: and you may find out that that game isn't really

514
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: playable on the EMULAID system. It's really frustrating if in

515
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: fact that was your goal from the start. So the

516
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: more standard of games code is, the better the chances

517
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: are that a high level emulator will be able to

518
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: handle it. Now, arguably one of the most popular types

519
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: of emulators is the multiple arcade machine emulator or MAN.

520
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: That's an open source emulator. An open source essentially means

521
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: the code is open for anyone to look at, to alter,

522
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: and even to re upload and distribute. So that means

523
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: as people find better ways to emulate a particular machine,

524
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: they can make adjustments to the code, and a new

525
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: version of the emulator can incorporate those changes. So if

526
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: it's a multiple arcade machine emulator, then you may have

527
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: a specific arcade cabinet that has not been emulated yet.

528
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: You might figure out how to do that, and you

529
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: add that code into a already existing MAME emulator, which

530
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: I understand is repetitive. See also my tire rate about

531
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: atm machines and pen numbers. But because you're able to

532
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: actually take that code and change it, then you can

533
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: increase the functionality for the community as a whole.

534
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 2: Now, the stated purpose of.

535
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: MAIME is to preserve games as an historical effort because

536
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: these old arcade machines relied on physical hardware, and a

537
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: lot of them are no longer in production. In fact,

538
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: most of them aren't in production anymore. So creating the

539
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: software that could run those games is a way to

540
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: preserve the games indefinitely instead of just have them get

541
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: older and older and older and eventually they just don't

542
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: work anymore. They break down to the point where it

543
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: doesn't matter if you have an original arcade machine, the

544
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: circuit board just won't play the game. This way, they

545
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: could be preserved indefinitely.

546
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: Now it just so happens that the.

547
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: Software also allows you to play those games, because that's

548
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: how the games work, right, Like, if the software didn't

549
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: allow the games to run, all you really would need

550
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: to do is find a way to preserve that random

551
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: or rather the read only memory the ROMs. If you

552
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: could just preserve the ROMs period, you could have a

553
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: library of unreadable files. It would be pretty unusual to

554
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: do that, Like, what's the point.

555
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 2: It'd be kind of like going into.

556
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: A library that is filled with books written in an

557
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: ancient language that no one understands anymore. So, yeah, they're historical.

558
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: They have some historical significant but there's no way to

559
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: understand what is there. So you start asking the question,

560
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: does it really make sense to keep them if there's

561
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: no way to read them. So Maine can read these

562
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: files that can play those games. But the stated purpose

563
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: for Maine isn't to play the games, it's just to

564
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: preserve them. Now you might find that that purpose is

565
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: a little do not peak behind the curtain esk, and

566
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: that you could easily imagine mame's design is meant to

567
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: give you the chance to play those old games and

568
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: not just keep them for posterity. I mean, if you

569
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: can't play the video game, is it really worth keeping?

570
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: But never mind that it doesn't really matter for the

571
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: purposes of this discussion. I just find it amusing. So

572
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: the main software evolves over time, and part of that

573
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: is just to keep up with technology. As operating systems evolve,

574
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: we have to adjust the software, the MAME software to

575
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: run on new systems. So you know, if Microsoft releases

576
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: a new version of Windows that's remarkably different from previous versions,

577
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: you may have to tweak the code for MAME to

578
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: be able to run on the new Windows platform. So

579
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: it is necessary for this to be open source for

580
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: the software to remain relevant, and there are lots of

581
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: different versions of MAIME on operating systems like Windows, on

582
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 1: Unix mac os. There are versions for both thirty two

583
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 1: bit and sixty four bit Windows versions. You can find

584
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 1: people selling MAME machines inside either classic arcade cabinets or

585
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: new cabinets designed to look like old ones, complete with

586
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: special controls. So if you wanted to, you could create

587
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,359
Speaker 1: a computer like You could build a computer on your own,

588
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: a decent one, not like again, not a super fast

589
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,439
Speaker 1: one necessarily, but a decent computer.

590
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 2: With a lot of storage.

591
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: You could mount a display inside a cabinet to look

592
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: like in arcade monitor. You could have the computer inside

593
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: the cabinet. That's essentially the case for your computer, and

594
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: you could hook up arcade controls, including ones that are

595
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: more unusual like the roller balls or some of the

596
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:24,479
Speaker 1: other yoke versions for flight games like the old Star

597
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 1: Wars game, that kind of stuff. You could have all

598
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,399
Speaker 1: those sort of controls available. You can even have ones

599
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: that detach from the system so that you can swap

600
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: them out whenever you need to for whatever game you

601
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: want to play, and you could have that in your

602
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: house and you would essentially have access to all the

603
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: arcade games supported by that emulator. That doesn't necessarily mean

604
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: every arcade game ever invented, but it could be hundreds

605
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 1: and hundreds of different titles. On the inside's just a

606
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: PC running that mame software and a collection of ROMs.

607
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 1: So it's getting to time for me to talk about

608
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: the legality of this. Like, if you wanted to do this,

609
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: if you wanted to have an emulator, whether it was

610
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,760
Speaker 1: a main emulator or a video game console emulator or whatever,

611
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 1: what are the legal considerations you should make. I'm going

612
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,240
Speaker 1: to tell you more about that in just a second,

613
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 1: but first let's take another quick break to thank our sponsor.

614
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:33,359
Speaker 2: All Right, we're back.

615
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: So you could technically build or buy a machine capable

616
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: of providing an entire arcade's worth of gaming on one device.

617
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: But is that legal? So this brings us to the

618
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,959
Speaker 1: legal discussion or law stuff, don't dun.

619
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 2: Interesting.

620
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: Note there are a lot of questions about ROMs and

621
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,879
Speaker 1: their legality. So our ROM files illegal? Is it ever

622
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: legal to download one? Are emulators illegal? It's good to

623
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: finally kind of tackle these questions now. First, emulators in

624
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: general are legal. You can own an emulator. There is

625
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: nothing inherently illegal about emulators. They're software meant to emulate

626
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 1: another technology, but in general they don't contain any proprietary code,

627
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 1: So that means emulators more often than not, don't have

628
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 1: any code in them that is protected by copyright. Since

629
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 1: there's no copyright violation, there's no illegal nature to these emulators.

630
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: Developers haven't stolen any intellectual property from the companies that

631
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 1: made the original equipment. They're just creating new software to

632
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: run programs that relied on older original equipment. So it's

633
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: a fine line. But emulators on their own are totally legal.

634
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 1: As for ROMs, that's where it gets messy. For one thing,

635
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: we do not have global laws guiding our choices about

636
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: legality or illegality when it comes to ROMs, so the

637
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: rules in one country can be significantly different from those

638
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: of other countries. Now, I'm gonna be looking at this

639
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: from the viewpoint of someone in the United States because

640
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 1: that's where I live. Longtime listeners of text stuff. No,

641
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: this is my mo I will take a view from

642
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 1: the US because that's where I'm from and it's way

643
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: easier for me to talk about this. But if I

644
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: wanted to tackle the legality from every country, I'd have

645
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:42,320
Speaker 1: to do a whole series of podcasts because it's different

646
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: for different places. In fact, even just the length of

647
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,399
Speaker 1: copyright protection is different in different countries. The US has

648
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: a lengthy period of copyright protection, Like we're talking decades

649
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: and decades of protection even after the death of whomever

650
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: held the copyright. So something to keep in mind, all right, So,

651
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: downloading a rom of a game you do not own

652
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: is violating copyright and is illegal pretty much anywhere.

653
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 2: So if you wanted.

654
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: To get hold of a RAM for a game, but

655
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 1: you don't own that game, you have no legal copy

656
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 1: of that game, Downloading it is against the law. It's

657
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 1: no different from downloading a song you don't own, or

658
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: a movie you don't own, or a television show. If

659
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: you do not own a copy, you're essentially stealing. Now,

660
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: in the case of arcade games, it's pretty darn common

661
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 1: for people to steal them. Not many people actually own

662
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: arcade machines. There are people who do, there are a

663
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 1: lot of them who do, but most people do not.

664
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 1: The average person does not own an arcade machine in

665
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 1: their home. So unless you own a legit copy of

666
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 1: an arcade machine, downloading the ROM for that game is

667
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: pretty much illegal.

668
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: But let's say you.

669
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: Go go to an auction right and you buy an

670
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: old Spy Hunter cabinet for your rec room at home.

671
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: First of all, good job, Spy Hunter, awesome arcade game,

672
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 1: one of my favorites from the arcade era. You get

673
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 1: the machine home and you realize that the circuit board

674
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 1: is damaged a little bit. It's kind of fried, and

675
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: the game isn't really working properly. It's not stable, like

676
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: you can get it running every now and then, but

677
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily run flawlessly or it might crash at

678
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:32,280
Speaker 1: random intervals.

679
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 2: So the question is, could.

680
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 1: You then download a ROM for Spy Hunter and replace

681
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,800
Speaker 1: the guts of the cabinet you've bought with a PC

682
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: running an emulated copy of the game. So instead of

683
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,839
Speaker 1: having the actual Spy Hunter elements inside this cabinet, you

684
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,479
Speaker 1: remove those, you put a PC in there.

685
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 2: The PC is.

686
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: Running Maime, and the only ROM you have on it

687
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: is Spy Hunter, because that's the game you bought.

688
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 2: Would that be legal? Well, if you were to rip the.

689
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 1: Game off the circuit board yourself, you could probably argue

690
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 1: that as being totally legit. So in other words, you'd

691
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: have to make a digital copy of a hard coded game,

692
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: which isn't exactly easy for the average person to do,

693
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: but it would be a necessary step to use a

694
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 1: digital ROM on another type of device.

695
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 2: In the United States, this.

696
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: Would likely be seen as making a legal backup copy,

697
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,399
Speaker 1: as in a lawful it is perfectly fine to make

698
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: a backup copy of media you have purchased. It's similar

699
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:43,320
Speaker 1: to making a backup of a CD or a cassette

700
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 1: tape or a vinyl album, either through putting it onto

701
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 1: another medium or ripping it and making it an MP three.

702
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 2: That's perfectly legal.

703
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: As long as you're doing it for your own personal

704
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: use without the intent to distribute, you're pretty much okay.

705
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: You are legally al oued to make backup copies of

706
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: stuff you purchased, as long as it's for the purpose

707
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 1: of a backup. But what about downloading a ROM from

708
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,439
Speaker 1: another source rather than ripping it from the circuit board

709
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: you physically own. Let's say that you don't have the

710
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: equipment necessary to pull the code off a hard coded

711
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 1: circuit board and convert it into something digital that a

712
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 1: PC could read, so instead you're just going to download

713
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 1: a copy from the internet. Now, arguably you could say

714
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: that downloading the ROM in this instance is a case

715
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: of fair use. So the argument you would make is

716
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: that you already own the game. You purchased a legit

717
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,879
Speaker 1: copy of Spy Hunter, and you're not distributing the ROM

718
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 1: to anyone.

719
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,479
Speaker 2: You're not trying to.

720
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 1: Create a marketplace for the Spy Hunter game. All you

721
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 1: want to be able to do is play the game

722
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: you bought on the arcade console you purchased. So you

723
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 1: could argue, I'm not causing harm to the market, right,

724
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: I'm not denying a sale. I'm just trying to get

725
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 1: access to the thing I have already purchased. Well, that

726
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 1: could be a legit fair use argument, but you got

727
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: to remember fair use is an argument you have to

728
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,720
Speaker 1: make in a legal case. In other words, it doesn't

729
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: protect you from getting sued. You can't say at the forefront,

730
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 1: this is fair use, don't sue me. Instead, fair use

731
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,760
Speaker 1: is an argument you make once you have been sued,

732
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,720
Speaker 1: so fair use doesn't matter until you get to court.

733
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 2: Chances are, though, no one would sue.

734
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,760
Speaker 1: You in the first place unless you were distributing games,

735
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 1: particularly for some of these old ROMs because in some

736
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 1: of these cases, the companies that made the games have

737
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: been out of business for years, or they were acquired

738
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: and sold and acquired so many times, then no one

739
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 1: really knows what the ownership rights are for some of

740
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 1: these games. So, in other words, there's no one to

741
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 1: give your money to because no one knows who owns

742
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: the copyright. And not only are no copies being sold,

743
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: but there's no one who's authorized to sell them, right,

744
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 1: no one knows who owns it. So in those cases,

745
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:16,720
Speaker 1: you're probably okay to download the ROMs, not that it's legal,

746
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: but that you're probably not gonna get punished for it

747
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: because there's no one to lay a claim against you.

748
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 1: That doesn't stop companies from doing that even when they

749
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have a legal claim to the content. If

750
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: they think they can get away with it, they could

751
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 1: totally go that route. You would have to prove in

752
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,399
Speaker 1: a court of law that the company suing you does

753
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,919
Speaker 1: not have a legal claim to the property they are

754
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: arguing is theirs. So you know, if video game Company

755
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 1: A says, hey, you know, back in nineteen eighty eight,

756
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 1: we purchased video game Company B, which means we own

757
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:57,479
Speaker 1: the video game you have downloaded illegally and you say,

758
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 1: well no because of X, Y and Z. Maybe it

759
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 1: turns out you're perfectly fine, but it means you have

760
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 1: to go through the whole court experience, which isn't great. Now.

761
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: You may have also heard that there's a special rule

762
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 1: that allows you to download any video game ROM and

763
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,240
Speaker 1: keep it for twenty four hours without it being illegal,

764
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: as long as you delete the realm after twenty four hours.

765
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,439
Speaker 1: So generally people say, oh, yeah, you can download the game,

766
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: give it a whirl, and delete it a day later,

767
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: and there's no fear of someone coming after you. I

768
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: am here to tell you that is not based on

769
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: any actual legal grounding. From what I can tell, there

770
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: is no legal foundation for this argument. It's probably just

771
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 1: wishful thinking that's been passed along as gospel among a

772
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: lot of realm sharing communities. The truth is, if you're

773
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 1: downloading something that doesn't belong to you and you're not

774
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: purchasing it, you're just downloading it, you are stealing. It.

775
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: Doesn't matter if you're keeping it forever or for twenty

776
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: four hours, it's still stolen.

777
00:45:58,160 --> 00:45:59,879
Speaker 2: Now. Complicating matters in this.

778
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 1: Case is that we're talking about digital information, not a

779
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: physical copy of something. I mean, if I walked into

780
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 1: a video game store and I pocketed a copy of

781
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: an actual video game that was stored on physical media

782
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,800
Speaker 1: like a CD or a DVD, there's no question that

783
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 1: I stole something. Right If I walk into a game

784
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 1: stop and I grab a box and I shove it

785
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 1: under my jacket and I walk out, I stole that.

786
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 1: There is a physical copy of the game that I

787
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: have taken, and that means the store can't sell that

788
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 1: physical copy because it's in my possession and I didn't

789
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 1: buy it. But downloading a file doesn't feel like stealing, right.

790
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 2: Because the original file still exists.

791
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,839
Speaker 1: On some server somewhere, So you didn't. You didn't take

792
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: the one and only existing copy. You made a copy

793
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: of another file, and now you have that copy, so

794
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: other legitimate customers could still purchase the game that you've taken,

795
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: because it's not like it doesn't exist anymore. And so

796
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 1: because of this, a lot of people justify their actions

797
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: as being okay, because it's not like they actually took

798
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: something that physically exists, except that at the end of

799
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 1: the day, you are accessing something without paying for it.

800
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 1: When there's an entire business based off of making games

801
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: for money. If game developers didn't make money, there wouldn't

802
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: be games. No one would make games, or at least

803
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: not on the level that we are used to. People

804
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: might make games as an expression of art and they're

805
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,360
Speaker 1: not trying to make any money, But there wouldn't be

806
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: a video game business if we all just stole stuff, right,

807
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: because there's no money in that, you would spend your

808
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: time doing something else where you'd actually be able to

809
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 1: make a living. But we get even more complicated because

810
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: many of the games that are in raw form are

811
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: now on obsolete systems or which you cannot purchase at

812
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 1: least not from a primary company, Like you're not gonna

813
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: be like be able to buy a classic Nintendo system

814
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: from Nintendo. You could buy the little ones that replicate,

815
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,800
Speaker 1: you know, a dozen or two dozen games on one system,

816
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: but you can't just go out and buy an Anys.

817
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 1: They don't make them anymore. Or some of those video

818
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: game systems are in limbo as far as ownership goes.

819
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 1: And that also makes it easier for people to justify

820
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 1: downloading the files, but it doesn't make it any more legal.

821
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 2: Now I'll admit.

822
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 1: It's really frustrating to be in a position in which

823
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 1: you would happily pay for something if you could, but

824
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 1: you have no legal way to do it. That is

825
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: really frustrating. I found myself in that same position with

826
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: a lot of British television series that I love but

827
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 1: are not available for purchase in the United States.

828
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 2: So I do the.

829
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 1: Legal, grown up lame thing, which is that I don't

830
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 1: I don't access it like I don't. I don't get

831
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: it means I don't pirate the stuff I love in

832
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: the hopes that one day I'll have a legal means

833
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 1: to access it.

834
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 2: Instead.

835
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:07,760
Speaker 1: I'll, you know, I'll post about it, I'll write to people,

836
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: I'll ask questions, but I have to wait until there's

837
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 1: a legal way to purchase it.

838
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:15,800
Speaker 2: I do think this is a muddy area.

839
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,359
Speaker 1: If a game exists and there's no way to buy

840
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 1: it and the company that made it doesn't even exist anymore,

841
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 1: are you really causing harm to the market by downloading

842
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 1: a ROM I'd say it probably not, because there's no

843
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,319
Speaker 1: way to purchase it legally. But someone in court might

844
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 1: say you undermined their attempt to make a legitimate commercial

845
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: copy of the game. Further down the road, and because

846
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 1: we can't see into the future and see if someone

847
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,399
Speaker 1: is really telling the truth in those cases, that's problematic.

848
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 1: So if I download a bunch of ROMs from a

849
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,720
Speaker 1: previous publisher that no longer exists, but their intellectual property

850
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 1: belongs to another company, and that other company says, hey,

851
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: in five years, we're going to release a best of

852
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: compilation little console that you can connect to your TV,

853
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: and if you distribute these ROMs, then you devalue that system,

854
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 1: even if they have no plan of doing that. I

855
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 1: don't know the case right, so it's complicated.

856
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 2: At the end of the day.

857
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 1: It is illegal to download ROMs for any games you

858
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: do not own, and you could technically get in trouble

859
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 1: for it. And as for games you do own, it's

860
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 1: a gray area and you could still technically get in

861
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 1: trouble for it. So tread carefully, and if there is

862
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 1: a legal way to buy or access the stuff you love,

863
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,439
Speaker 1: I urge you to do that first. It helps cut

864
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: down on reactionary laws and digital rights management strategies, and

865
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 1: it helps prevent companies from making these these.

866
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 2: These new systems that hurt everybody.

867
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: So if there's a way to get it legally, do that,

868
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 1: and if there's not, think really hard before you go

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00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 1: down this pathway, because you could be causing yourself more

870
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: frustration in the long term. And that's it for that

871
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: classic episode about how video game emulators work. As I

872
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 1: said at the beginning, I've thought about getting like a

873
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 1: mame machine. But the issue I have is that a

874
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 1: lot of the content you find with those, I mean again,

875
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 1: it's like pirated content. That doesn't mean that emulators themselves

876
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 1: are bad, as I've said many times, they're not. Emulators

877
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 1: are a way of preserving work that otherwise could just

878
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 1: go forgotten. It. I don't have an issue with that

879
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 1: at all. It's just the issue where I balk is

880
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 1: I really do believe in paying to have access to

881
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:50,399
Speaker 1: work that other people have made, and so that's why

882
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: I haven't taken the plunge on getting a mame machine.

883
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 1: It's not that I think Maime itself or any other

884
00:51:55,880 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 1: video game emulator for that matter, is inherently bad. That

885
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 1: I believe in paying people for their work. And I

886
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 1: don't just mean the people who make the emulators. I

887
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 1: mean the people who made the original games that are

888
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:13,840
Speaker 1: running on those emulators. It's a it's a it's complicated

889
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: because in many cases you literally cannot purchase the content

890
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: any other way, and then you're left with the question of, well,

891
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 1: if you can't do that, doesn't it just get forgotten?

892
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: And honestly, I don't. I don't know how to reconcile that.

893
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,840
Speaker 1: So as I struggle with this, I hope you all

894
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 1: are well and stay well.

895
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 2: Don't worry about me.

896
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,720
Speaker 1: I'm sure I can come to some sort of decision

897
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 1: about Maine at some point, and I will talk to

898
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:54,840
Speaker 1: you again, really soon. Tech Stuff is an iHeart Radio production.

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00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple

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00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,320
Speaker 1: Podcasts wherever you listen to your favorite shows.