1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkam. I'm a mother of four, 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger. 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: the side, we are two working parents who love our 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode seventy eight. We'll be 11 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: talking with our guest Katie Forrest today. Katie comes to 12 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: us from the UK, where she is a criminal defense 13 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: attorney who is running a busy practice there. She is 14 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: also raising a special needs daughter, some very profound challenges 15 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: with that. Her daughter's about ten years old, so we're 16 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: going to be talking about that and also how she 17 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: makes time to write novels on the side. So a 18 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: lot going on. I We're very excited to talk to Katie. 19 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: But first our introduction here, Sarah is saying that she 20 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: wants to be thinking about superficial things we should do. 21 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: Another episode perypes maybe in the future. Yeah, one of 22 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: our more popular topics. Honestly, it was. It was true, 23 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: I know. So I mean, I'm finally like back to 24 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: my quote unquote normal post baby. So I am super 25 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: I don't know, into reinventing my clothes because I realized 26 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: that many of them are basically be moved. And I 27 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: open this box and the box was like closed from 28 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: pre pregnancy with Genevieve. So I guess that was from like, 29 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 1: you know, end of twenty sixteen, early twenty seventeen, because 30 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: it's funny pregnancy and recovery from pregnancy like that takes 31 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,839 Speaker 1: a long time because we're in twenty nineteen now. And 32 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: while I was like, yeay they fit, I was kind 33 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: of like some of that stuff was from several years 34 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: prior to that, and it's like not super InStyle anymore. Yeah, 35 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: so I think I'm like excited to go shopping because 36 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: like I found a pair of low rise like corduroys 37 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: and they were cute, but then they were like super 38 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: low rise and like nobody wears this anymore, and also 39 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: it's not doing me any favors. So so I get 40 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: a shop. Where are your go to places? Well, I 41 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: used to really love Boden. I think I am going 42 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: to invest in. I've just every time I talk to 43 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,399 Speaker 1: anyone professional, it's like theory pants, theory pants, theory pants. 44 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: I love my theory pants. I've never tried on a 45 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: single pair of theory pants, but I feel like I'm 46 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: in my normal ideal place body wise, So I'm going 47 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: to get some theory pants and try them and see 48 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: if they're actually as good as everyone says they are. 49 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: And you buy petits usually, right, Yeah, I don't know 50 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: if theory makes pettit. I mean that's the first question. 51 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: I say. You have to find like retailers that have 52 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: a really strong because Boden does. Like their petit dresses 53 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 1: fit me super well, which is great. Anthropology has some petits. 54 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 1: I wear a lot of made well, which they don't 55 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: have a ton of petits, but somehow they seem to work. 56 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't know about theory. I feel like 57 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: they do though they must because people are just so 58 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: adamant that they seem to fit everyone the best. Well. 59 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: I have a pair of black theory pants, so yeah, 60 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: I've born them many many times. So there you go. Uh, 61 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: they're just pretty There we go straightforward black pants that 62 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: that work. And so when you find a pair of 63 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: black pants that work, you tend to keep wearing them. Well, 64 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 1: I had the J Crew mini pants for a very 65 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: long time, but that was like a style that they 66 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: had for a long Okay that they even still had it, 67 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: because again I've got this weird gap of like pregnancy 68 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: covering all that. But they were good. But they were 69 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: dry clean only, and I cannot handle that. So I 70 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: don't know if the Theory pants are all dry clean only. 71 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: I'm not sure I'm on board. Yeah, they maybe I'm 72 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: dry clean mine. I mean, well, it's really hard to 73 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: do dress pants that aren't, though I mean I know 74 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: there are some. I have a pair of m and 75 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: Lafleur that you can put in the wash and then 76 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: just don't put them in the dryer, although sometimes I 77 00:03:57,840 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: mean the thing is when we do our laundry, like 78 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: my husband and I are both whoever is there will 79 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: move it. So I have to put a big post 80 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: it note on the washing, you know machine doors put 81 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: my theory, but do not put these in the dryer. 82 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: But it's a yeah, I'm not sure how big the 83 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: post it note would have to be because I put 84 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: everything in the dryer, and I just like whatever, it's yeah, yeah, 85 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: I don't know. So I'm not been into clothes so 86 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: much lately. I probably need some new ones. Maybe it's 87 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: just I'm tired with my wardrobe. Oh you showed me 88 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: beautiful stuff that you got for your well, that's more 89 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: fancy stuff that you got for your birthday, that's true. 90 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: I went out and bought a pair of a Saint 91 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: John's dress, which is not cheap at all, but I 92 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: super classy and look great on you. Classy. I like 93 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: Saint John. There if anyone who watched my Ted talk, 94 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: I'm wearing Saint John blue shell knit on on top 95 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: and black Theory pants on the bottom and like that. 96 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 1: But but I like Saint John. And it was just 97 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 1: sort of a nice shopping experience. And I was the 98 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: only one in the store and they were, which is 99 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: in the crowded King of Prussia. Mall right, wow, I 100 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: guess I figured, if you move the price point high enough, 101 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: the place to yourself a lot of personal attention, a 102 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 1: lot of person and then if you end up with 103 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: just one or two things that you end up loving 104 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: and wearing forever. I mean that's also the whole like 105 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: slow fashion movement, which I find intriguing as well. Yeah, 106 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: and I mean I've already worn this dress and I 107 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: will will wear it again, I'm sure, so that's a 108 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: good thing. I don't know. I mean, I've ever wrote 109 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: in the notes that I probably should get some new 110 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: clothing in the sense that I weigh more now than 111 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: I ever have in my life when I wasn't, you know, 112 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 1: six months pregnant plus and so I've been pondering that, 113 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: you know, because it's not I don't really feel like 114 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: I Yeah, that does not make you want a shop. 115 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: I mean, that's partly why I had no desire like postpartum. 116 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: I mean, not only was it like, well, I know 117 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: my body's probably gonna change, but it's also like, wow, 118 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: it's not so appealing to dress a body that you 119 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: don't like love or Yeah, but I'm trying to decide 120 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: what to do it if I should just decide to 121 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 1: love the body I'm in because I'm not really sure 122 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: I feel like putting the time and effort into making 123 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: it different. And so that's then you just need new clothes. 124 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: So I guess we'll figure out which way will she go? 125 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: I don't know. All right, Well, if you have requests 126 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:23,119 Speaker 1: for superficial topics for a future Superficial Things part, please 127 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,559 Speaker 1: let us know. Yeah, all right, well let's go ahead 128 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: and dive into the Katie portion of this interview. All right, well, Katie, 129 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us on best of both worlds. 130 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: We've been having all sorts of technology fun this morning. 131 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: But we know that you are used to, you know, 132 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: making things work, So why don't you tell us a 133 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 1: little bit about yourself, both your you know, what you 134 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: do professionally and personally, and how you got where you are. Yeah. Sure, 135 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: So professionally, I've got a couple of different strands of things, 136 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 1: the first being I have a law firm myself for 137 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: my husband's set up her own law firm back in 138 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, and for a criminal defense firm. 139 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: We do prosecutions as well, but we only do criminal work, 140 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: so very stressful, we're very very interesting. And then as 141 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: well as that, I am a writer as well, so 142 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: I do mainly fiction writing around the law firm. The 143 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: other main thing that's going on in my life is 144 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: that I have got one child, a daughter who's nearly 145 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: ten now, and she's got quite complex special needs, So 146 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: why don't you tell us a little bit about her 147 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: special needs just so we can get a good picture 148 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: of it. Sure. The first thing that was kind of 149 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: identified was a numbrella term, which is global development delay. 150 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's a term that you guys 151 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: have over there in England. Yeah. Here in England, it's 152 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: pretty much a catch or phrase when a child is 153 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: not meeting the kind of developmental milestones, and the doctors 154 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: don't really know why they would say our child has 155 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: a global development delay. So that's how it all started. 156 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: When she was nearly young, probably about two years old, 157 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: I think was when things are noticed. Since then she 158 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: has been diagnosed with autism and also pathological demand avoidance, 159 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: which is about as much fun as it sounds like. Really, 160 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: what it means is that her kind of ingrained first 161 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: response to any demands that are made is for her 162 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: to avoid that demand. And by demand, it can be 163 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 1: anything that's pleasant, so it's it's not kind of tidly 164 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: your room as a demand. It can equally be why 165 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 1: don't we go swimming, which is something she loves, up 166 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: to her as a demand that presents a huge amount 167 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: of anxiety. So her first response would be to say 168 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: there and to avoid that demand. So it makes it 169 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 1: makes things on a day to day basis quite interesting. 170 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: I would say, so, how do you how do you 171 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: deal with that? I mean, I'm sure you've come up 172 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: with something, So how does how does that? How does 173 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: day to day things just happen if she automatically says 174 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: no or fights anything. I think it comes down towards 175 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: choosing our battles, getting to understand her and what's motivating her. 176 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: And because we started this journey several years ago now 177 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: of knowing that she did have some additional needs, we 178 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: have I think over time just growing these additional skills 179 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: in terms of being very patient. We can't parent her 180 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: in the way that you can pair into typical child, 181 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: so discipline very often doesn't work in the regular way 182 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: for her. A huge issue for her is her self 183 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: esteem and her anxiety level. So it's trying to manage 184 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: those with a lot of patients, a lot of positive reinforcement, 185 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: recognizing that we're not going to get a typical response 186 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: from her. So if we do somethings that we think 187 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: is going to be hugely enjoyable for her, she will 188 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: enjoy it, but not in way that you might expect 189 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: a regular child too, And very often things that are 190 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: really enjoyable stressful as well at the time, and they're 191 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: almost better afterwards when we're reliving the memory and looking 192 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,839 Speaker 1: at votographs and we've just kind of helped to make 193 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: out peace with that and accept but in that moment 194 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: things aren't going to be as straightforward and enjoyable as 195 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: we might hope. So that's interesting. So she will enjoy 196 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: something but then not remember that she enjoyed it, or 197 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: not be able to have that knowledge that previously I 198 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: enjoyed this. It still creates the anxiety for her. Yeah, definitely, yeah, 199 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: Oh that's interesting. Yeah. And with the autism, what sort 200 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: of level of functioning is she with that? Well, she's 201 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: definitely low functioning. So she's an early ten now and 202 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: she can't read all right yet, so she's very very 203 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: behind her peers academically. I think the typical signs of 204 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: all so things like needing a routine and getting anxious 205 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: about change. If we've spoken a year or eighteen months ago, 206 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: I would have told you that they weren't weren't issues 207 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 1: for her. That's actually changing as she gets older. Things 208 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: like that are becoming more of an issue. So that's 209 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: the thing as well for anybody in my position. You 210 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: can't kind of imagine that the need of your child 211 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,839 Speaker 1: has got or setting stone, and we're finding that they 212 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: are changing all the time. So yeah, you think you 213 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: know what is motivating her and what isn't and then 214 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: it all changes. Yeah, exactly. Sounds challenging, but I mean 215 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: it sounds like case giving up some strategies, even the 216 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: one about taking pictures and looking back and saying you 217 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: know what, Even though that was incredibly hard, that was 218 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: a positive experience in our own way. Do you get 219 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: a lot of tips from other parents or community support 220 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: groups or the school? How has your how have you 221 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: learned about how to deal with this challenging situation. I 222 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: think mainly trial and error. I'm very, very lucky that 223 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: my husband is incredibly supportive and we are on the 224 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: same page with all of this. That makes a huge difference. 225 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: We have not turned to things like support groups and 226 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: community groups or anything like that. It's just not something 227 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: we want to do. My daughter having additional leads is 228 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: a big enough part of my life as if I'm 229 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,079 Speaker 1: not going to go and spend my sair time in 230 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: that kind of environment. Talking about this no criticism to 231 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: people who find that helpful, but I personally wouldn't, So 232 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: it's really been trial and error. We have reached out 233 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: as to professionals, so we've had various professionals involved with 234 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,839 Speaker 1: her on a kind of private basis. We've obviously got 235 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: the NHS over here, but they don't provide everything, so 236 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: we have gone out and we've found our own experts 237 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: and had them work. Because of the school, that's been 238 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: really helpful. We've been very, very lucky that her mainstream 239 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 1: school has been amazing, but a lot of it has 240 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: just been kind of finding our way. Well, let's talk 241 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: about school, because you know, for people who are caring 242 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: for older children with special needs, I'm sure the school 243 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: situation is a big part of it and figuring out 244 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:11,839 Speaker 1: how their needs can best be served with that. So, 245 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 1: how have your interactions been with the school and what's 246 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: what's involved with that school? Have been amazing. We've been 247 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: really really fortunate with that. They have taken on board 248 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: our involvement and we are fairly involved as parents, so 249 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: they've been happy to listen to us and work with 250 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: ours equally. They are very very happy to make the 251 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:37,839 Speaker 1: adaptations that are needed and do whatever is necessary. Things 252 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: are a little bit up in the air in that 253 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: regard at the moment, my daughter has been in mainstream 254 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: school up to now, and that really is discoming. It's 255 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: not a situation that works anymore for anybody, for her 256 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: or for the school. So we are at the moment 257 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 1: looking for kind of a special needs school for her 258 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:02,719 Speaker 1: with gon through that process right now, it's quite it's 259 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: quite complicated and a little bit intimidating because there's so 260 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: much that is unknown at the moment. So's she's gonna 261 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 1: you're looking into specialized schooling now for her? Yes, definitely. 262 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: She's got to the point at her mainstream school where 263 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: she's becoming unhappy. The school are just not able to 264 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: cater for her needs anymore. And as I say, it's 265 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: the fact that her needs are changing all the time, 266 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: so she's not the child she was a year ago. 267 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: Her needs are not the same. So it's reached the 268 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: point where we have got to look at alternate settings. 269 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: The way that works, certainly at least over here, is 270 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: that there are schools that are special provisions and you 271 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: have to go and visit them. You have to see 272 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: if you think that they are appropriate, and then they 273 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: have to come out and visit the child and decide 274 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: if they can meet that child's needs. Moment we know 275 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: the school we want to get her into, I'm pretty 276 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: sure that school can meet her needs. So it will 277 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: be a case of finding out when there is a 278 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: space there and what we can do to get her 279 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: there as soon as possible. Right, well, that's going to 280 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: be quite a challenge and change for everyone. And what's 281 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: you've been doing all this while you and your husband 282 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: are running this legal firm as well, So talk a 283 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: little bit about your your professional worker criminal criminal defense. 284 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: It's as you said, probably never dull, definitely, never dull definitely, 285 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: which which is good. I often say to people that 286 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: if we didn't have our own business, that's when I 287 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: would really struggle because I would be completely unemployable. My daughter, 288 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: because of her needs, can't access out of school clubs, 289 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: she can't access typical childcare. So having our business means 290 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: that I've got the flexibility of working for school hours 291 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: and working term time, so I prepare the cases at work. 292 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: I'm office based. I leave every day to do the 293 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: school pickup pretty much, and then I'm pretty much assumed 294 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: to be out of work for all of the school holidays, 295 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: and so what kind of cases though? Are you doing 296 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: your all kinds of criminal defense? My casework is pretty 297 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: much focused on sexual offenses, which I really really enjoy. 298 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: Several years ago, we debated whether we wanted to do 299 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: sexual cases, and I was quite passionately fighting that we 300 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: should do them. I think for those kinds offenses, if 301 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: you are falsely accused, you really really need somebody to 302 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: fight for you, and that's what we've tried to do. 303 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: So the majority of my work is sexual offenss. What 304 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: drew you to that? You just thought it seemed really 305 00:16:54,520 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: challenging area. Yeah, I think very often in our life 306 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: kind of work, we see men who find themselves falsely 307 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: accused for various reasons, and as soon as that accusation 308 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: is made, they lose everything. So they will lose their 309 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: families very often, they'll lose their access to their children. 310 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: They'll usually lose their jobs. If they're professional people, their 311 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: whole careers might be at risk, and that's as soon 312 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: as the allegation is made, before they find themselves in 313 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: court and have their chance. So I really felt those 314 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 1: people need somebody fighting for them, and that's what we 315 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 1: try to do. Wow, your job, I don't think I 316 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: want your job. That's incredibly and complex, And hats off 317 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 1: to you for making it work and doing it as 318 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 1: a business with your husband. I mean, you say you're unimployable, 319 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: but if you were working for a bigger firm, I 320 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: guess you just would have to It would be a 321 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: different situation. You'd have to figure out something part time. 322 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: But I guess tell me, is it the fact that 323 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: you're with the business. You don't feel like it hurts 324 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 1: you professionally that obviously, since you're working with your husband 325 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: to have this kind of split between your your daughter's 326 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: needs and work. Yeah, And we've got we've got a 327 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: really good team at work, so I know that I 328 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: can be out of the office. You guys will know 329 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: your work doesn't stop when you're not physically somewhere, So 330 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: you know, if you've got your phone, you can always 331 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: be answering emails and messages. So I'm always working. But 332 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,199 Speaker 1: when I'm physically not there, I know I've got a 333 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 1: really really good team in place who can handle pretty 334 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: much anything that calls in. That's that's wonderful. And you 335 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: also have a fascinating side hustle which Katie writes books 336 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: under a pseudonym which we are not going to tell you, 337 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: but to keep to keep the pen name truly as 338 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: a pen name. But how did you start doing that? 339 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: And I'm sure everyone's wondering where on earth do you 340 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: find the time? I think it shows how much time 341 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 1: I used to be wasting on Facebook. To be honest, 342 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: I've always wanted to write with the geeky little girl 343 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: who always had a notebook with her, So it's nothing 344 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: new for me to want to write. I got to 345 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: the point where I realized I need to stop making 346 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: excuses and try to do this, and I quite liked 347 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: the idea of having something that was just for me 348 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 1: at that point. So how I did it was waking 349 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: up earlier doing all of those things but really aren't 350 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: very glamorous, and just just becoming better organized with my time. 351 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: And so how you know, talk through like when so 352 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: you'd write in the morning, you'd write in spare time 353 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: on the weekends. And also it's a little space though 354 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: too right, I mean as a writer, I would say, 355 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: you know, the prem is it can be all consuming 356 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: and I'm sure that criminals, friends can be all consuming, 357 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: and as can caring for a child with many needs. 358 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: So how do you personalize the mental part of all this? 359 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: I think really it's getting up and getting it done 360 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: first thing. So as often as possible, when my husband 361 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: is around, I'll wake up at kind of five o'clock 362 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 1: in the morning, get myself ready and leave the house. 363 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: That's the crucial bit. If I'm still at home, even 364 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 1: though I have got a study at home, if I'm here, 365 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: when my daughter wakes or she will know, she will 366 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: kind of, you know, sniff it on there or something, 367 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: and then that's it. My time is gone. So I 368 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 1: leave the house get a good few hours done first 369 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: in the morning. One thing I have had to accept 370 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: is I just do not have any mental head space 371 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: in the evening to do anything. By the time my 372 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: daughter goes to bed, nothing productive is going to happen 373 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: for me at all. So I've tried to fight that 374 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: over the years, and now I've just accepted it's not happening. 375 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: So first thing in the morning, that's when I'm at 376 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: my best. Here. It's very time black dependent, which I 377 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: feel like is gaining favor as a strategy. You know 378 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: you're going to be writing from maybe five to eight, 379 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: and then your brain is like writing time is over. 380 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 1: I am now a lawyer, and you do that until 381 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: it's time to pick up your daughter and then your mom, 382 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: and then you're resting, and that's pretty much how it goes. Absolutely, Yeah, 383 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: I love it. Yeah. Do you guys have any Have 384 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: you managed to find any support at home as well, 385 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: like I mean with your daughter, have you been able 386 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: to find a babysitter who can help so you and 387 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: your husband can do stuff together. Yeah. We're really really 388 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 1: lucky with family. We've got a really close family on 389 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: my side, and my husband's family are great, but we're 390 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: a little bit for a wife, whereas my family are 391 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: literally a couple of miles away. So they are very 392 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: very present, very involved, very keen that we get to 393 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 1: go out and have some time just for ourselves because 394 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: they see how it's like living on a roller coaster basically, 395 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: which means we have we have some wonderful, wonderful he eyes, 396 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: but there are definitely some crashes down and some lows, 397 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: and they see that and are really very dedicated to 398 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 1: doing what they can in terms of giving us the 399 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 1: adult time together. I wonder if you could talk about 400 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: one of those highs, like with it being a roller coaster, 401 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: because I mean, obviously, listening to it sounds like there's 402 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: so many challenges involved with your daughter, but I'm sure 403 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: when there are breakthrough is it, it's amazing. So can 404 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: you talk about a recent high? Yeah, of course. I 405 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: guess one of the things is that at the moment, 406 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: she's really really keen and wanting to go out to 407 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 1: eat in a fancy restaurant. And I think she's got 408 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: that from watching the film rather two we I don't 409 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: know if you guys have seen that, but they on 410 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: her wish list at the moment. He is going out 411 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: to a fancy restaurant. And we've got a college nearby 412 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: where they have kind of a really nice, high end restaurant, 413 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: but it's the college students who are working in there 414 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: so that they're getting experience for their qualifications basically. So 415 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 1: I reached out to that restaurant recently and I said, 416 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: we'd love to come. My daughter wants we find dining experience, 417 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: but she might not be very quiet, she might not 418 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: be great at waiting. Can we make this work? And 419 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: so the manager replied to me, and she was absolutely wonderful. 420 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: She said yes, absolutely. If you come on such and 421 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: such a night, that's the quieties night, so that should 422 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: be est. And what we'll do is give your daughter 423 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: a guided toward the kitchens as well, so sometimes you go, 424 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: it's amazing. So we're going there in about two weeks 425 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: towards the end of January and she'll get to have 426 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: her fine dining experience. So that's really really cool. That 427 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: is awesome. And you know, I'm sure a lot of 428 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: our listeners who maybe have have younger special needs childs 429 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: and children and are looking forward to the future and 430 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: what this would be. What sort of advice do you 431 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: have for your younger self as you look back and 432 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: you know, Katie, when your daughter was much younger, what 433 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: do you wish you'd known. I think what I would 434 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 1: say is, in my experience, it's been a free stage process. 435 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,959 Speaker 1: So it starts with suspicion, and that is you as 436 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 1: a parent thinking these milestones aren't being there, these points 437 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: just aren't being reached at the time they should be, 438 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 1: and that's you starting to get an idea that something 439 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 1: isn't quite right. And the difficulty in that period is 440 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 1: that the professionals may not be listening to you. So 441 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: if anybody listening is in that point, I would say 442 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: just keep talking, keep talking to the professionals, keep records 443 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: of what's happening, and make sure that you are being 444 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 1: listened to. I think sometimes as parents we don't believe 445 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: that our own knowledge is valuable, and I would say 446 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: it is, so you know, best keeping it. The second 447 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 1: stage would be the diagnosis if it comes, and that 448 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: really for me, was the point where it became a 449 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 1: grieving process, because nobody goes into having a family expecting 450 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: that they're going to be going down this road. So 451 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: if anybody listening is finding themselves in that grieving process 452 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: or this isn't there, or anger, that's absolutely fine and 453 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: you will come through the other side, would be what 454 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 1: I would say at that stage. And then the third stage, 455 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: which is where I think we are, it's it's adjustment, 456 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: So it's having to adjust your day to day life, 457 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: having to adjust your expectations for what this period of 458 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: your life is going to look like. And then getting 459 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: a practical help you need with things like extra help 460 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: at school, that is very valuable. I think I'm sure 461 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: there are many listeners who are really kind of happy 462 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: to hear that there's a roadmap and that you know 463 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: you've you've found your way through and that you're managing 464 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 1: to you know, thrive in many aspects of your life 465 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 1: even with this this big challenge and enjoy pieces of 466 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: it because it sounds like they really are really meaningful 467 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 1: and wonderful parts have your experience, there definitely are, and 468 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: I think, certainly in my case, the reality is that 469 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: my daughter is going to stay a child a lot longer, 470 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: and that certainly comes with some difficult moments, but it 471 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 1: also comes with some wonderful, wonderful moments. We you know, 472 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: we've we've taken her to Disneyland and she knows for 473 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: a fact she has met the real making out. You know, 474 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 1: there's no doubt in mind, and I'm sure for many 475 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 1: many years you will continue to think that's the case, 476 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: so that those magical childhood moments will last for a 477 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 1: lot longer. But there are definitely a lot of positive 478 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: that's wonderful. Well, So Katie, we always do a Love 479 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: of the Week, which Sarah and I can go first, 480 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 1: so you can think of one. So Sarah, you want 481 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: to start us up off. Mine is like a little 482 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: simple pleasure today. So we did recently move and I 483 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 1: had to go shopping for like new products and I 484 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: think I'm really late to the to the bendwagon on 485 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: this one. But missus Meyers soap, they smell amazing and 486 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: I bought like five different scents and I love them 487 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 1: all and I don't know why it took me so long. 488 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 1: So yeah, the lavender is amazing and the bluebell I 489 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: highly recommend. Yeah. Well, with that mine, I decided to 490 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: do a simple one too, so that the fact that 491 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,360 Speaker 1: my shower hat is now functional. We did a renovation 492 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: and I guess it had been bad before and then 493 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: after it seemed even worse, and so I called the 494 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: people back up to have them see what they could do. 495 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: It's just this trickle and it was making showering like bad, 496 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: and your morning shower is bad, like the day is 497 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,479 Speaker 1: just bad. It's not a fun way to start to day. 498 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 1: But it's fixed and it's now like you know, the 499 00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: water pressure is magnificent. So I'm I am massively enjoying that, Katie. 500 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: How about you? Well, just to count to you guys 501 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: having kind of every day once, mine is a bit 502 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: of a grand one because I got home yesterday from Bali, 503 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: which is ridiculous. Eighteen hour flight. So my love of 504 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: the week is upgrading to business class, which I did 505 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: myself too, and I am so glad I did. Yes, 506 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: eighteen hours and coaches is no fun. But so no, 507 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: I have yet to ever fly anything other than coach, 508 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: So I look forward to the day that I can 509 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: enjoy that. That is amazing. You will love it, You'll 510 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,719 Speaker 1: love well, Katie. Thank you so much for joining us. 511 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. And we would tell our listeners 512 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: about your novels, but where to find the book? Since 513 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: we pledged to keep your pen name silent, I will 514 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: just say that you should check them out. You'll just 515 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: have to use your sleeping skills to figure out what 516 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: they are. But thank you so much for joining us. 517 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: Thank You's been fun. All right, Well, that was a 518 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: great interview. So today's question comes from a listener who 519 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: wants to talk about sleep and how that intersects with 520 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: her career. So she wrote, and she said she is 521 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: a teacher and aspiring school leader and she's finding that 522 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: a lack of sleep is a major impediment being productive 523 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: and successful. But she doesn't sleep enough. Her head hurts 524 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: her motivation to do anything is low, desire for caffeine 525 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: and sugar is high. Feels a low level of anger 526 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: brewing underneath a forced cheery mood, forced because she works 527 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: with kids and it's not their fault that she's not sleeping. 528 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: I love that anyway. She appreciated our podcast with the 529 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: Sleep Expert, but because of the number of illnesses her 530 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: son has caught at daycare, we haven't had a good 531 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: open stretch to implement any of the advice. So what 532 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: I guess I'm wondering is if how you negotiate night 533 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: duty and a fair sleep situation in a dual career marriage. 534 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: She thinks that her husband and her set up habits 535 00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: during her maternity leave since she was the one who 536 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: had to get to go to work the next day, 537 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: and now that she's working too, and has been since 538 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: her son was three and a half months old, it's 539 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: challenging to make it swing the other way. Her husband 540 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: works in finance, so the unspoken point is that his 541 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: clarity and focus matters more because he brings in a 542 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: larger share of the household income. But the reality is 543 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: that at fifteen years into my profession, my income is 544 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: not inconsequential either, and most importantly, she likes her job, 545 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: wants to continue to grow and move into school leadership, 546 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: which sometimes feels like an impossible goal while sleep deprived. 547 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: They've also been discussing having another kid, which it so 548 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: that discussions on the table, but she feels it would 549 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: be a hit to her career to have another year 550 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: or two working on low levels of sleep. So she says, 551 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: I'm sure an uneven split of sleep motivates many women 552 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: to opt out of their careers. So I'm guessing your 553 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: answers would resonate with many in your audience. Any advice 554 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: would be appreciated. Well, So, Sarah, Yeah, great question. And 555 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: I think you know there's some nuances depending on the 556 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: child's age and everything, but I do think Laura and 557 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: I are pretty much on the same page. I will 558 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 1: tell you. I mean, I you didn't mention exactly how 559 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: old your child is now, and I don't know if 560 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: you're still nursing, because obviously that can change things a 561 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: little bit. When I was doing that, I did a 562 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: lot of the night duty, but once I was done 563 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: with it, or if there were opportunities where she was 564 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: up and I knew she didn't need to eat, then 565 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: it was a much more even split, if not slightly 566 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: skewed to my husband, because I was doing so much 567 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: more during those nursing periods. I firmly feel that this 568 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: is the responsibility of both parents, particularly if you both work, 569 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: but even if only one person is working in a 570 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: traditional job, because if somebody else is caring for kids 571 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: all day, unless unless it's just like one baby who 572 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: naps and you can nap, I mean, really, it's going 573 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: to make you crazy if you could never have a 574 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: reasonable night of sleep. And there's got to be a 575 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: way that things can be shared so that you each 576 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: can have some compromise, but that you both can remain functional. 577 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: I mean, from my residency experience, I got to say, 578 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: like you can have some like two or three terrible 579 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: nights of sleep in a week and kind of be 580 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: an okay human being, but you can't have six to 581 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: seven So the two parents, and therefore, I think this 582 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: needs to be like logistically figured out so that you 583 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: both can share some of this responsibility, whether that's alternating 584 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: nights or maybe one of you does kind of like 585 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: one of you goes better early so that the other 586 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: one would deal with any wake ups from like nine 587 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: PM to one am and then the other one deals 588 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: with kind of like the early morning wake ups and 589 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: then that second person sleeps in, so kind of splitting 590 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: the night that way, Like, I don't know that there's 591 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: one right way, but's something and I think i'll let 592 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: you talk in a second. Sorry I'm on a soapback, 593 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: but I was going to say, well, your husband, I 594 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: wrote that you cannot be a good parent, person, partner, 595 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: or professional if you are sleep deprived every night. So 596 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 1: this has to be a shared burden. I agree with that. 597 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: I'm a fan of splitting nighttime or early waking duty. 598 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: Like you said, there's two options, or there's really more 599 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: than one option. So when Michael and I, when we 600 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: were dealing with Alex, who was not sleeping well for 601 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: a long long time, we would alternate nights of who 602 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: got up in the morning with him, and so you know, 603 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 1: one on then the other, and that way you which 604 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: one night was yours and which you could really sleep 605 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: and it would be a particular treat on it a 606 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: night when I knew that I didn't have to get 607 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: up early to even go to bed early too, so 608 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: I could just like max out sleep that yeah, nine hours, 609 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: if I could get it, knowing that it would be 610 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: really disrupted the next night. I posted that on my 611 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: blog and somebody wrote in that I think she may 612 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: have been looking at some sort of sleep research or 613 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: sleep cycles that possibly even doing two days on and 614 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: then two days off is better holistically for your sleep. 615 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,239 Speaker 1: I think, you know, you could figure that out if 616 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: that's something that would work for you. The alternate is, 617 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: I've said, if there's a lot of middle of the 618 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: night wake ups, so it's not just like early morning 619 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: or having trouble going to sleep, then you could do 620 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: a split of Yes, one partner takes any wake ups 621 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: that happened between say, eight pm and two, and the 622 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: other is between two and eight or whatever sleep you know, 623 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: split you want to do, and that way, each partner 624 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: is guaranteed a six hour stretch each night, which for 625 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: most people, if you can get six uninterrupted hours, you're great. Now, obviously, 626 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: maybe in the morning you have to get up before eight, 627 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: so that doesn't work. But you know, if she's working 628 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: at school, that's probably actually part of the thing that 629 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: might be happening here is that she has to get 630 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: up early because school schedules tend to be developed in 631 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 1: maybe the dad doesn't. So maybe the dad doesn't, in 632 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: which case, you know, if he has to be there, 633 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: you know, right before the market opens or something like 634 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: the aren't market open nine thirty, Maybe he only has 635 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 1: to start work at nine. Maybe he could take more 636 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: of the morning. I don't know, but you work it 637 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: out in a way that they can do that they 638 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: can take terms napping on weekends, that is definitely a 639 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: time to add that in. You know that each of 640 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: you gets at least an hour nap during the day 641 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: on weekends, that can help add it up, you know, 642 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 1: and particularly if the baby's napping, that's a great time 643 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,479 Speaker 1: for both of you to nap. Like, don't do chores 644 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: during that time. That is definitely the root of madness. 645 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: Going to bed as early as possible as you can. 646 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: You know, we all crave me time, but and so 647 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: we tend to stay up late in order to have 648 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: me time after the kids have gone to bed. But 649 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 1: the honest truth is, if you're in the stage where 650 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 1: there's a lot of sleep up heer occurring because of 651 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 1: a baby's wake ups, and you are trying to advance professionally, 652 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 1: probably just need to like deprioritize the you know, reading 653 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 1: and web surfing and all that for a little bit, 654 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,839 Speaker 1: knowing that it'll come back in your life later when 655 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: the kids are older. But you know, I agree with 656 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:18,839 Speaker 1: Sarah too get on the soapbox here, that I would 657 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: nip any assumption in the bud that your husband's sleep 658 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: is more important than yours because it isn't true. And 659 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: I know that a lot of couples fall into this 660 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: pattern during maternity we leave again because he's the one 661 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 1: who's getting up to go to work. Although I'd say 662 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: you're caring for a baby that's just as important, Like 663 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:38,800 Speaker 1: that's not His work is not important more important than yours. 664 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: And even if he is earning more, as you said, 665 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: you're not insubstantial amount of it. And that's just also, 666 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: I mean, what does that mean? Is mean everything he 667 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 1: does is more important than you because he earns more. 668 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 1: I mean, you can't have a couple that way, and 669 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 1: he wouldn't have that nice ability to work the more 670 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 1: flexible hours and earn more and all that if it 671 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: weren't for you. Like that we forget that part. Yeah, yeah, 672 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: So I mean I would definitely have a conversation with it. 673 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 1: You don't want to have any sort of fracked conversation 674 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: with like you're a terrible person and the only reason 675 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: you're doing this is because you're a horrible person. Like, 676 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 1: That's not the way to approach this conversation. You should 677 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: go in assuming the best that he you know, maybe 678 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: assume he feels terribly guilty about this or didn't even 679 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: notice it, like, you know, whatever it is. Story you 680 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: need to tell yourself going into the conversation that it's 681 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,359 Speaker 1: not that he's a horrible person, which is why he's 682 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: not doing a share of the nighttime wake ups. So 683 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: go in and say, like, you know, I've noticed this. 684 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: I am not going to be able to continue functions. 685 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: So here's a schedule I propose for us each taking 686 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: a night time. Do you like this schedule or do 687 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: you have another one you'd like to propose? You know, 688 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: so that it's not like do this or die, it's 689 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: just like, which schedule do you like or do you 690 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,439 Speaker 1: have a different schedule you'd like to propose? But which 691 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: one should we do? That's workable? If he balks, you 692 00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: have a very different conversation to have. But that that's 693 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:04,359 Speaker 1: sort of outside the scope of this. But and then 694 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: the one last thing I'd say She mentioned that a 695 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,359 Speaker 1: lot of this is related to illnesses with daycare. One 696 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 1: of the reasons we wound up switching to a nanny 697 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: from daycare years ago is because of the constant illnesses. 698 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: And it was starting to hurt me professionally because you know, 699 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 1: I was the person who was working at home more often. 700 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: And you know, we had arguments about this as well, 701 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 1: but you know, either I could have, you know, and 702 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 1: so I sometimes I would say, you know, my husband 703 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: had to stay home with it, maybe because I had 704 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: to do something. I would go work in a coffee 705 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: shop all day. But it was just sort of hard 706 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: to bring him on board with that. So what we 707 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: wound up doing a solution is hiring a nanny so 708 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,799 Speaker 1: that the illnesses were less frequent. B If the kid 709 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,720 Speaker 1: was stick you know, low grade fever, whatever, the nanny 710 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: could still be there working and that solved some of 711 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: those problems. And the strategy only works when you have 712 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,320 Speaker 1: one kid though, because like we're actually like with Genevieve, 713 00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: she has not been sick a lot, because I assume 714 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:00,919 Speaker 1: the other two are sort of past that point where 715 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 1: they're I mean somewhat past the point where they're sort 716 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: of like snotting all the time. But Cameron was home 717 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: and he was just as sick as animal was because 718 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: she was bringing stuff home from preschool. So yeah, but they, 719 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: I mean, they have one kid, that's what they have. 720 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: In their case, it actually would have a measurable effect, 721 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 1: I'm sure. Yeah, So just something to consider for them. 722 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: You know, lots of lots of things go into childcare choices, 723 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 1: but certainly a downside of daycare is that illness and 724 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 1: then its effect on sleep and the like. Well, anyway, 725 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,240 Speaker 1: this has been best of both worlds. We've been talking 726 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: with Katie Forrest about parenting a special needs kid. Obviously 727 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 1: many challenges involved in that and also, as she said, 728 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 1: some real highlights too. So that was a great interview 729 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,400 Speaker 1: talking about how to split bad sleep among a couple. 730 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 1: And we will be back next week with more on 731 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: making work in life fit together. Thanks for listening. You 732 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: can find me Sarah at the shoe dot com or 733 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: at the Underscore Shoe Box on Instagram, and you can 734 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,279 Speaker 1: find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has 735 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us 736 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 1: next time for more on making work and life work together.