1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: Quody dits, but Joseph's gotten more. I'll have to admit 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: I am a child of the seventies. Doesn't mean I 3 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,639 Speaker 1: was born in seventies. It means that I kind of 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: came of age in the seventies. And I guess probably 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: one of the most iconic things in my mind about 6 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: the seventies were vehicles. And I've always had an affinity 7 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: for muscle cars. One of my and I don't know 8 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: that you could really call it a muscle car, but 9 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: my first car that actually had was actually a sixty 10 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 1: nine Mustang three Speed, and I adored that car. Almost 11 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: got killed in it. And that's a sixties car, But 12 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: you know, people wanted them in the seventies. You saw 13 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: old ones riding around everywhere. You don't see too much 14 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: of them anymore, the good ones I'm referring to. But 15 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: you know, another car that really stands out, or another vehicle, 16 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: and it is pure seventies through and through, would have 17 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: to be vans. And look, insert any kind of creepy 18 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: van joke that you want to say, the white panel van. 19 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: You know, all those sort of things. But you know, 20 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: when you're out and about and you're teenager, one of 21 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: the things that was really popular in the late seventies 22 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: and early eighties was this idea of a van that 23 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: had mag wheels, had chrome on it, and of course, 24 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: of course the obligatory painting on the side of it, 25 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: and it was always like a sunset or something, you know. Now, 26 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: I saw some cool ones too that had like, you know, 27 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: like Conan fighting a dragon or something, you know, but 28 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: the sunsets, you know, were kind of, hey, man, everything's cool, 29 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: We're going to the beach, that sort of thing. You 30 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: always imagine that there was like shag carpet on the 31 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: walls in the back, probably a mattress. I would imagine 32 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: there were many fathers back during that period of time 33 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: that refuse to allow their daughters to go out on 34 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: dates with guys with fans. But all joking aside. Today 35 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: on bodybags, we're actually going to talk about a case 36 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: involving a van, a van that was discovered in nineteen 37 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: eighty three. Now, there were a lot of vans out there, right, 38 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: but what sets this one apart is that inside of 39 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: this van was a beautiful young woman who had sustained 40 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: a single gunshot wound to the head, and her killers 41 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: were never found. Well, that is until now I'm Joseph 42 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags. Hey, Dave, were you 43 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: ever afraid to get no van? 44 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 2: I always wanted one man, I always wanted I'm that 45 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 2: you and I are so close in age and background. 46 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 2: I wanted that van. I did not want it looking 47 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 2: like Scooby. I wanted it to have the big sunburst 48 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 2: down the side of it. And I wanted to have 49 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 2: a stereo system in the back with my bed that 50 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 2: turned into a couch with my TV. I wanted that 51 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 2: that was going to be my home. 52 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 1: Do you remember the ones that had the little ladders 53 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: on the back. They were chrome and there was like 54 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: the luggage thing on top, and they'd be jacked up 55 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 1: in the rear, you know, and of course in the 56 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: Ford vans. Uh well, I guess all of them that 57 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: the motor was actually adjacent to you. Yeah, you know, 58 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: it was right adjacent to your right leg if you're 59 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: the driver, you know, and people would just you know, 60 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: they would really really. 61 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 2: You know, so funny that that's what you really hopped 62 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 2: on with this episode. It really is funny that that 63 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: was what really got your attention. Just see, I'll know, 64 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 2: when we were talking about doing the k of Dorothy Tate. 65 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 2: Her family called her Toby. Joe was like, did you 66 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 2: see pictures of that? 67 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: Did you see that? 68 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 2: And I'm like yeah, but I mean I'm taking more 69 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 2: looks now. And it's like because I was thinking about 70 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 2: it and I'm trying to figure out. Both of us 71 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 2: were how does a woman from Colorado end up in 72 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 2: San Luis Obispo, California. To give you an idea, it's 73 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 2: three and a half hours outside of LA. You go 74 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 2: up the Pacific Coast Highway, which from LA you actually 75 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,679 Speaker 2: go north and a little bit west. If you actually 76 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 2: look at the map, you'll understand what I'm talking about. 77 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 2: But it's an area. I actually spend a summer near there, 78 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 2: in passer Robles, but so I know the geography. It's 79 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 2: nothing like what you think of when you think of California. 80 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: It looks totally different. It's very desert, you know. Anyway, 81 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 2: that's where this actually took place nineteen eighty three. We're 82 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 2: talking November fifteenth, nineteen eighty three. There is a turnout, 83 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 2: you know how when you're driving down a highway and 84 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 2: there's not a lot of places to turn off or whatever, 85 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: they will have a turnout area where you could pull 86 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 2: off the side of the road should you need to 87 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 2: take a break or what have you. And that's where 88 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 2: this van was situated in Santa Luis Obisbo County and 89 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 2: the deputies got a call. Sheriff's office gets a call 90 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 2: about this van. It was just sitting there and apparently 91 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 2: nobody was around it. There's no movement, and you get 92 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 2: locals going, hey, man, go check this out. And when 93 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 2: they did, they found forty one year old Toby Tate. 94 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 2: Now this happened in nineteen eighty three, and when they 95 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:42,119 Speaker 2: found her body, she had been shot. She was dead, 96 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 2: and there was blood, and there was minimal evidence and 97 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 2: all they really could determine because they didn't know who 98 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 2: she was. She wasn't from the area, she wasn't a local. 99 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 2: So they've got a van and a dead woman. That's 100 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 2: really where they had to start. And there's nobody at Joe, 101 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 2: Nobody's around, there are no witnesses, there's no cameras. This 102 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 2: is in a different time, nineteen eighty three, and that's 103 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 2: where this investigation starts. 104 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know the one I wanted to go back 105 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: to something that you had said, uh, you know, trying 106 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: to frame this. I've been up through the same areas 107 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:25,239 Speaker 1: as you know you were just mentioning. No, obviously probably 108 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: not with the frequency that you have, but and I 109 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: haven't stopped at every little uh, you know, fleeceback along 110 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: the road. The interesting thing about pch for those that 111 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: have never been out in that area, if you're traveling 112 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: up that that roadway end, listen, anybody has an opportunity. 113 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: I'm not a big fan of LA anymore. It's just, 114 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: you know, it's just not my things. Too congested, it's 115 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: too dangerous, that sort of thing, you know, And God 116 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: bless you if you live there. I've got a lot 117 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: of friends out there, however, just that traveling is something 118 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: that you know, I have my soundtrack in my in 119 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: my brain is like I'm listening to America, you know, 120 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: to the band America's anyone down the road into her 121 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: Highway and all sorts of things. One of the cool 122 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: things about that area is that for years you could 123 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: travel up pch Man and there were these pullouts where 124 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: people would camp. You know, you could literally they're so 125 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: I don't know heavy handed now out that way, I 126 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: know if that's even possible anymore, but you could pull 127 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: over on the side of the road these areas, and 128 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: obviously you've got surfers that are out there that sort 129 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: of thing, but people would literally pull over in their 130 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: vehicles and camp alongside of the road. It's really cool. 131 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: And you had this really these beaches are so broad 132 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: out there. And one of the things that's fascinating about 133 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: Toby's case, Dave, is that there's an element to this. 134 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: She had, if I'm remember correctly, she had her dog with. 135 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 2: Her, yes, too, I think had two dogs with two dogs, 136 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: and traveling in your van, traveling in her van, and 137 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 2: she there you go, and she had had a conversation 138 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: with her sister like a day before, and she had 139 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 2: talked about how she. 140 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: Was going to go take her dogs for a walk 141 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: again something for many people. You can still see people 142 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: walking on the beach with dogs. Again, people are so 143 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: heavy handed now. It's not like it used to be. 144 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: You know, you'd see people out with their dogs all 145 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: the time on the beach. You know, when they found 146 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: Toby's remains inside of that van, Dave, she had her 147 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: shoes on, I think socks, She had sand, She had 148 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: sand between her toes, which is really I don't know 149 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: about you when I go to the beach, though it's 150 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: I'm far from being a neat freak, but I hate 151 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: sand on my feet, you know, And so anything I'm 152 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: gonna do if they've got those little shower nozzles, I'm 153 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 1: sticking my feet. Even if the inside of my generally 154 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: sandals or something get wet, I'm going to get to 155 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: sand off. Now it'll get back on. But it's given 156 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: me comfort for that. It's so uncomfortable, you know. I 157 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: thought about this just for a second. I wonder if 158 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: this had anything to do with speed speed in the 159 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: sense that you're being pressured to do something. Why is 160 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: it that you would still have sand all over your 161 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: feet but have your shoes on over that en SOI 162 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: in socks. Was she trying to get away from something? 163 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: I don't know? And I think that that's probably one 164 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: of the big drivers here as far as a mystery, 165 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: and this is truly a mystery. 166 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 2: Man to her case, you mentioned that, and it actually 167 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 2: does change the dynamic here because what we do know 168 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 2: is that her sister, Priscilla, they work together as waitresses 169 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 2: in Colorado, and that they talked on the phone the 170 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 2: day before on November fourteenth, Oftentimes, when we find a 171 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 2: story like this and we think November fifteenth was the 172 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 2: day that her body was found inside the van, we 173 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 2: tend to think, or I do, that was the day 174 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 2: she died. But if you think about it from the 175 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 2: standpoint of her sister saying, the last thing she told 176 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 2: me was how beautiful everything is, and that she was 177 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 2: going to take the dogs down to the beach to 178 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 2: let them run around. 179 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: And when the. 180 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 2: Police that they asked her that this was so odd 181 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 2: the sand on her feet with socks and shoes, that 182 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 2: it was brought up to Priscilla, and that's when she thought, 183 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 2: at least she got to take the dogs to the beach. 184 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 2: You know, that's something somebody who doesn't go to the 185 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 2: beach very often would not think a big deal about. 186 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 2: But you do go to the beach a lot, so 187 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 2: do I, and because of that, we both know that's 188 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 2: an uncomfortable thing that grit hurts. You wouldn't do that 189 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 2: unless unless something happened that caused you to be in 190 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 2: a hurry, and then you would put your shoes and 191 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 2: socks on without brushing them off. And but it takes time. 192 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 2: So I'm thinking you might be onto something Joe. 193 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: Cand of sets you up with one more thing to here, David. 194 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about this from a behavioral standpoint. I go, 195 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: how vulnerable would a woman appear if you can, if 196 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: you're a predator and you identify her, And let's face it, 197 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 1: you know, I know every I made the comment about La, 198 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: but we're not in La now, we're San Luis Cispo 199 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: and we're northward. It's not certainly back then it was 200 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: not heavily congested. Would you concur with that statement? Okay, 201 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: this country area? Yeah, And so how vulnerable would a 202 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 1: woman like Toby appear at that moment in time? Where 203 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: and here's the other thing. If she's traveling with two dogs. 204 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: These two dogs are probably her best friends in the world. 205 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: So you get that dynamic. And if you've got a 206 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: predator out there, if they're not afraid of dogs, she's 207 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: going to do anything she can to protect her dogs. 208 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: And she's very vulnerable at that moment time. If somebody 209 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 1: approached her or they said, hey, I've got car trouble. 210 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: Can you give me a hand? Yep, my shoes are 211 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: right here, I'll walk in. My van's right here. I'll 212 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:13,719 Speaker 1: take you up there. And the next thing, you know, 213 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: these people are persons set upon her and there's nothing 214 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: she can do about it. And here's another thing about 215 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: a van. A van in and of itself is almost 216 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: like a portable living room, particularly from that era of time, 217 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: might have a kitchen, kitchenette, might have a bed. It's containment. 218 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: If you can get somebody inside of a van, they 219 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 1: are totally and completely isolated. And guess what else, everything 220 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: you're doing is hidden from view. Plus you can't hear 221 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 1: the report of a firearm. Probably as an investigator day, 222 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: one of the most disgusting cases I ever worked involved 223 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: a van and it took place in Atlanta. In not 224 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: if people if people are familiar with Atlanta, and particularly 225 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: if you've ever brought your family to Six Flags in Atlanta. 226 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: Six Flags is actually in Cobb County, which sits six 227 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: La Likes sits right on the Chattahoochee River. You know, 228 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: Alan Jackson sang the song, you know, way down on 229 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: the Chathoochie the other side of the Chattahoochee River. That's 230 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: where Fulton County starts. And that was my jurisdiction, so 231 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: I guess it would be too. I think two exits 232 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: up from Fulton Industrial Boulevard, there was a kind of 233 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: an industrial park. Dave I had. I had four guys 234 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: that had come up from Mexico via Texas, and they 235 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: got on I twenty and headed into Atlanta, apparently to 236 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: mule drugs. And the reason I say this was disgusting 237 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: is that their van was actually found parked adjacent to 238 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: a wooded area behind behind one of these big warehouses, 239 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: and a guy had stepped out of the warehouse for 240 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: a smoke, and he walked around and he went into 241 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: an area I guess that no one had gone into 242 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: for some time. And he's lighting up a Marlborough and 243 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: he's standing there and all of a sudden, the wind 244 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: shifts and he catches a whiff of something and he 245 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: walks over to the van. And do you remember these 246 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: these vans that had on the back end that got 247 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: almost it looks like a gigantic pine glass window on 248 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: the side of the van where you can actually well, 249 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: this one had two one on either side that were 250 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: both blown out. Oh wow. And all four of these 251 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: guys were dead in this van, and they had probably 252 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: been in there for it seems like it was. If 253 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: memory serves me correctly, it was like six weeks, that's 254 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: what they kind of and it was and this was 255 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: in summertime, and this had probably happened at the end 256 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: of spring. They were multiple gunshot wounds. We found case 257 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: scenes around the outside of the van, and someone had 258 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: gotten up in the van and I think probably the 259 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: Coup de Gras had shot probably a couple of them 260 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: that were still had agonal respirations. Whatever. We found ejected 261 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: sales inside of there as well. I'll never forget that. 262 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: I felt like, well, I felt like throwing my clothes 263 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: away after that shift that day. It was that bad. 264 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: And so when I think about Toby's case, and this 265 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: involves a gunshot wound, I'm thinking about containment here relative 266 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: to what happens inside the small space. I made the 267 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: comment about you can't hear a sound. You can hear 268 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: a sound, but if you're next to pch and look, 269 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: if cars are racing up and down that highway, you 270 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: don't have foot traffic car going by. I think even 271 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: if the windows are down, you're not going to hear 272 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: the report of a weapon. If it's inside of the van, 273 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: it's almost like doing it inside of a dumpster. Of 274 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: the lid is closed, you might hear a muffled kind 275 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: of womp like that, but it's not going to have 276 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: that sharp crack that you would normally have. It's almost 277 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: like the perfect place to commit a homicide with a 278 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: firearm and go unnoticed. And the utility of this is 279 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: quite interesting, I think. And then you couple that with, Look, 280 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: I'm not detegrating any way. My colleagues back in nineteen 281 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 1: eighty three, but they didn't have the technological assistance back 282 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: then that we do now. I mean, we're light years 283 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: past that point in time. In nineteen eighty three, there 284 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: were other things. You know, we had fingerprints, we had 285 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: blood typing and all of that. 286 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 2: But only good if you have somebody to compare those 287 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 2: things too. 288 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And that's that's the big that's the rub, 289 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: you know, because I'll get I'll have our friends and 290 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: other people where I go and speak and whatnot. They'll 291 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 1: say something like, well, why don't you just get the 292 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,239 Speaker 1: DNA and compare it, right, And it's like you might 293 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: as well say that about fingerprints too. If you're not 294 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 1: in APHIS, if you're not in the system relative to 295 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: National Fingerprint Database, can we can roll the most beautiful 296 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: prints on a body. You know, we teach our students 297 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: to do that. At Jack State, I have deceased individuals 298 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 1: where we actually teach them how to do cadaver fingerprints. 299 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 1: But if I got nothing to compare it against, what 300 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: good is it. It's the same thing with dental records. 301 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: If you have dental records, if you can do a 302 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: post mortem chart of somebody's teeth, that's all fine and good. 303 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: It's groovy, man, I mean awesome, you charted the teeth. 304 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: But if you don't have anti mortem records to compare 305 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: it to. Again, it ain't worth a gunpowder to blow 306 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 1: it to hell. And so any kind of trace evidence 307 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: that you might find in that van relative to anything, 308 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: any trace that's left behind by a perpetrator, it's a 309 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: very difficult road to ho Dave. 310 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 2: Now, Joe, you've got one victim inside the van. We 311 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 2: aren't told anything about the dogs. What we know about 312 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 2: the dogs came from her sister, Priscilla, who said she 313 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 2: was taking the dogs to the beach. But I looked 314 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 2: through everything I could find, couldn't find anything about the dogs. 315 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 2: After the fact, What would the investigators look at as 316 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 2: they're called to the scene. There's nobody else there, You've 317 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 2: got a van, a dead woman who has been what 318 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 2: appears to be gunshot wound, and you've got blood. And 319 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 2: by the way, there is evidence that they collected, including 320 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 2: a coke can that they were able to get a 321 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 2: fingerprint from. They also had blood evidence on the scene 322 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 2: that came into play later on, but at the time 323 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 2: the evidence they found was helpful. But again without having 324 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 2: something too directly compare it to, at the time, this 325 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 2: case went cold quick. But Joe, what are they looking 326 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 2: at when they opened the doors of that van? What 327 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 2: are they going to see? With Toby in their forty 328 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 2: one year old woman by herself and now she's dead, 329 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 2: she can't tell you anything. You've got to figure out 330 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 2: the whole story based on what's sitting in front of you. 331 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, the upside, the positive side to this, going 332 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: back to the idea that this is in a van, 333 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: you have containment. You don't have you don't even have 334 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: a big sprawl in house or certainly you don't have 335 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: a true pure outdoor scene. Okay, if you remember the 336 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 1: recent unpleasant us in Idaho with the four students that 337 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 1: were butchered, that individual that did the butchery. I said 338 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 1: early on in that investigation that his vehicle would be 339 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 1: a rolling crom scene. Of course, that apparently turned out 340 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: not to be accurate. I take full responsibility for that 341 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: because it just didn't. It didn't. They weren't able to 342 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 1: harvest as much out of there as I thought they would. 343 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: Well and maybe throll. 344 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 2: Yourself under that big bus, you know. Interesting to find 345 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 2: out that they were looking for the right car. They 346 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 2: tracked it all across the country, and then once it 347 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 2: got back to Coberger's parents' house in Pennsylvania, the first 348 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 2: thing Dad did before Coberger gets out, he runs in 349 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 2: the garage, pulls Dad pulls his car out and says, 350 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 2: you put your car in their son. By that time, 351 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 2: they knew everybody was looking for a white Hyundai, and 352 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 2: so they pull his car in there, and we know 353 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 2: that it was cleaned by somebody who knew a lot 354 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 2: about evidence gathering that police do. 355 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think it was. Yeah, yeah, and it is. 356 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: And that's the beauty. That's one of the beautiful things 357 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: about cars. When you have these events that take place 358 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: in them, you have this containment that goes on with 359 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: physical evidence. It's not if you keep the winds rolled 360 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: up and something so benign. Let me give you an example. 361 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: It's like if you have like one of the if 362 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 1: you have a scene that's like an outdoor scene where 363 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: maybe you've got two people Mono and Mono going against 364 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 1: one another, and somebody who's just beating the crap out 365 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: of another person. They beat them to death, they're rolling 366 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: around the ground. Well, it takes us hours to process 367 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 1: crime scenes and death scenes in particular, manytimes outdoors, if 368 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: rain comes up or wind comes up, if there's contact 369 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: trace that goes from one person to the next, wind itself, 370 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: I believe it or not, can have an effect. If 371 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 1: you have a storm that blows in and I've had 372 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,719 Speaker 1: the worst sound that any investigator can hear at a 373 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: crime scene that's outdoors. It's a rumble of thunder off 374 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: in the distance. And you can just imagine, you know, 375 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: logistically and scientifically what that creates. But containment within a van, 376 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: everything everything that was perpetrated within the van that has 377 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 1: an evidentiary value, that has transferability contact trace. Going back 378 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: to our buddy that I'm always talking about the card, 379 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: every contact leaves a trace. You have the doors are shut, 380 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: and when you see this van, the doors are shut 381 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, and you're not going to 382 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 1: have impact of weather. So everything in there is and 383 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: everything that van, in its totality is the biggest piece 384 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: of evidence that you have aside from Toby's remains. Now nowadays, 385 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 1: with a van like this, and I can't speak to 386 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: what they would have done during that period of time, 387 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: that van would have been flatbedded to the closest, the 388 00:22:54,000 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: closest facility that has a crime process and garage I have. 389 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: Actually they had had vehicles transported with the body still 390 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 1: in them. We'll put them on the back of a 391 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: flatbed cover the car with the tarp, go very slowly. 392 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 1: Generally there's a police escort and we take them to 393 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: the process in location. And the reason you do that 394 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: is so that the body doesn't lose context. Like if 395 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: the body is laying in the back on the floor 396 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 1: of the vehicle or maybe on some kind of cot 397 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: that's back there that was used for sleeping or whatnot, 398 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: the body is not going to be moved from that. 399 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: We would not even put the body in a body bag. 400 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 1: We would try to secure the body as best we could. 401 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: And that's why you go slowly. You don't want to 402 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 1: go down to any unimproved roads with this thing on 403 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: the back of the vehicle. But you want to keep 404 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: it in that state so that you can observe everything. 405 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: You can go in and context the body, do your 406 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: measurements there in a controlled environment. Trust me, Dave. The 407 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: Pacific Coast beach is not the place you want to 408 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: process a van. I mean you can testify to this. 409 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: I just mentioned weather just a second ago. Have you 410 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: ever been to the beach in Cali when the wind 411 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: was not blowing and you've got to get access to 412 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: the van, so you have to open the doors. Well, 413 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: if you open the doors, guess what happens. You get 414 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: the swirl of wind that goes in there. It's not 415 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 1: the best environment to process a scene. So that's an 416 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: uphill battle for any investigator. But some of the things 417 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: that you're going to be looking at here, and this 418 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: is where blood evidence comes in, is that anything that 419 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 1: would take place in that intimate space is there's going 420 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: to be it demands contact between the perpetrator and the victim. 421 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: That's kind of obvious, but people don't think about that. 422 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: If you've got a life or death struggle that's going 423 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: on in there, if you've got someone that you're trying 424 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: to bring I don't know house to say it, rather 425 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,719 Speaker 1: than to heal, to get them to submit to what 426 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,400 Speaker 1: you want to do. You might be forcing them down 427 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,199 Speaker 1: on the floor, you might have them in a kneeling position. 428 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 1: Whatever that happens, you're going to be putting. If you're 429 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 1: the perpetrator, you're going to be putting their hands on them. 430 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: If they are resisting, they're going to put their hands 431 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: on you. And so in that way, you contain everything 432 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: in there to process. So what are you going to 433 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: look for? Well, I actually use I actually use the 434 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: interier of a van as an example in my classes 435 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: I teach, and we talk about fiber evidence in there, 436 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: particularly if you have something that's been upholstered rug anything 437 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: like that, where you could have the fibers on Toby's 438 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: body and maybe those fibers at that moment time had 439 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: transferred over to the perpetrator. Now the perpetrator is long gone. 440 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: So if you don't have their clothing, you can't look 441 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,360 Speaker 1: at their hands, you can't look at their hair. That's 442 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: a lost cause. Okay, But that victim, that perpetrator would 443 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: have taken something with them from an evidentary standpoint, and 444 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: they would have. In fact, if you believe believe in 445 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: le Carte's principle, they would have left something behind, and 446 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: I think in this case they probably did. You had 447 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,239 Speaker 1: mentioned the soda can that had a latent print on it, 448 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: and latent for people that don't know, latent print means 449 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 1: that this is something that is not visible to the eye. 450 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: So if you take if you dip your fingers in ink, 451 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,919 Speaker 1: dip your fingers in blood, any kind of medium, and 452 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 1: then touch a surface that's not a latent print. You 453 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: can have grease for instance, you touch something, for instance, 454 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: that borders on a type of print that we call 455 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: a plastic print, where it's actually raised raised, it's not 456 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: necessarily flat with a surface. You can leave a plastic 457 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: print behind, say for instance, and putty, undried glue. You 458 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: know those are undried paint. That's a great plastic print print. 459 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: So you have all of these little points of contact. 460 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: But in this case we have a can day and 461 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: they were able to raise a plastic print. I mean, 462 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 1: we're able to raise a latent print off of this can. 463 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: I believe, Now, what. 464 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 2: Is that going to show? 465 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: You? 466 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,360 Speaker 2: Say, a latent print, we're talking about something that they 467 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 2: have to lift off the can and then again you 468 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 2: have to find something to match it with. Otherwise it's 469 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 2: just a fingerprint. 470 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's just a fingerprint. But the one thing 471 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: you can do. And of course nowadays, you know, and 472 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: forgive me, I don't remember. I'm sure that somebody out 473 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 1: in the audience will notice, because our friends that listen 474 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: to us are very astute. I get some of the 475 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: greatest comments many times about the cases that you and 476 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: I cover, Dave. You know, nowadays we'll do things like 477 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: we'll do things like super glue fuming. Okay, where you 478 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: put the you put in an object, you can put 479 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: a pistol or a you know, or a can like that, 480 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: and you fume it with super glue, and that the 481 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: chemical ailments within the within the superclus actually heated. It's 482 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: heated on you remember coffee coffee cup warmers. You put 483 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: it in a little tin like that, the drops of 484 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: the and you put it in an aquarium and you 485 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: hang like you would suspend a can. 486 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 2: Beverly Hills cop Yeah, yeah, you're right, Yeah, you did it. 487 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: And that as that as that air salizes in the air, 488 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: it falls, right, and so it comes to rest on 489 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 1: those oils that are on the can, and perfectly you 490 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 1: can see you can see the print. And of course 491 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: now we have all kinds of alternative lighting methodologies that 492 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: we applied to take that shot. And the thing about 493 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: it is with a can, Dave, like some other things 494 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: in this world, but with the can in particular, even 495 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: if it was raised in nineteen eighty three, that print 496 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: will still be in existence even to this day if 497 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: somebody took care of the print that was lifted, and 498 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: of course the can that was taken as evidence, Dave. 499 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: I had a buddy of mine that became a homicide 500 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: detective down in New Orleans many years ago. But before 501 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: he was a homicide detective, I am going to name 502 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: a section within Criminal Investigation Division where he was a 503 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: detective that I bet that you didn't know was actually 504 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: a thing. Are you ready all right? Okay? This guy 505 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: was a pawn shop detective. Wow. And so he spent 506 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: his days. Now, they're loosely attached to things like burglary, 507 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: and many times if you have a lot of theft, 508 00:29:58,200 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: and I know that people that are out there that 509 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: have relatives that are in law enforcement, particularly in bigger jurisdictions, 510 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: this is a thing, and people don't hear about it 511 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: a lot. I don't know if it's this prevalence that 512 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: used to be, but yeah, he was a pawnshop detective, 513 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: so he spent I mean, if you like going to 514 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: thrift stores and pawn shops, it would really be a 515 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: great gig, right, But you're not going there for pleasure, 516 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: all right. So what he would do is he would 517 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: go from pawnshop to and all the owners knew him, 518 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: you know, and of course they're a little bit You 519 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: can imagine the owners are a little bit skittish because you 520 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: don't want to get involved in something like receiving solen merchandises. Okay, 521 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: but you know, Dave a pawnshop in Toby's case, amazingly 522 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: actually comes into play, doesn't it. 523 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 2: And it wasn't. It was two years down the road. 524 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 2: That's the other thing, all right. Her death happens in 525 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 2: November of twenty of nineteen eighty three, in nineteen eighty five, 526 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 2: about one hundred and fifty miles to the west to 527 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 2: the east, rather in Bakersfield, California. Right, think about that 528 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 2: for just a minute. We're going from San Luis Obispo 529 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 2: to Bakersfield, one hundred and fifty miles and two years 530 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 2: the world. Yes, I mean buck Owens and. 531 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: Buck Owens and desert. Yeah, and wells. Dwight Oak my boy, 532 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: Dwight Man. Yeah. 533 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 2: The thing is is that in quick Dwhite Yoakam trivia. Yeah, 534 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 2: you know he's in Officer and Gentlemen, right, Richard Gear movie. 535 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: Yeah? 536 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 2: Really, yeah, I remember the dance Tia yellow ribbon. Yeah, yeah, 537 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 2: that's Dwhite Yoakam playing tire yellow ribbon around the old 538 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 2: oak tree. 539 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: Go watch dog Gone. 540 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 2: You're gonna lose it when you see him. 541 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna. I gotta go back. I gotta 542 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: go back. I did. 543 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 2: Two years after the murder of Toby, the pawn shop 544 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 2: detective finds this Nikon camera. And when I found out 545 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 2: about this high dollar Nikon camera with the van park 546 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 2: near the beach, all of a sudden, things started coming 547 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 2: into frame for me. At forty one years old, Toby 548 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 2: was an artist at heart. Granted, she's a waitress in 549 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 2: Colorado with her sister, but she's on a vacation. I imagine 550 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 2: she was taking beautiful photos and just having the time 551 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 2: of her life. You know, this would be one of 552 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 2: those bucket list trips you would have. And that's when 553 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 2: I found out about the camera. Now we do know 554 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,719 Speaker 2: that they probably that her purse was missing, and so 555 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 2: police were looking for that. But I've got a feeling 556 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 2: they talked to hers little sister. What else could she 557 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 2: have had in there that we were looking for? Oh, 558 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 2: she had a camera? Is a Nikon? Here's the you know, 559 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 2: I'm guessing that's where they got that, because they had 560 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 2: to get it from somewhere. But that Nikon camera that 561 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 2: belonged to Toby was found in a pawn shop in 562 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 2: Bakersfield two years later, and they were able to trace 563 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 2: it back through a number of different people over a 564 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,479 Speaker 2: two year long period of time, but it was they 565 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 2: couldn't chase it back to where it came from. They 566 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 2: found multiple people who had touched it, had been involved 567 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 2: with it. So I'm guessing it was a pretty expensive camera. 568 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and back then, you know, we didn't way before 569 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: the days of digital cameras, and if you had thirty 570 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: five millimeter SLR a Nikon at that period of time, 571 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: and you know, photography obviously, and I love photography, but 572 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: I've only done it, you know, professionally, I mean, not professionally, 573 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: that's a way. That's a big understatement. I've only done 574 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: it to photograph, you know, scenes and dead bodies. So 575 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: I'm far from a professional in the sense of art art, 576 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: you know. And so you can just imagine, I know 577 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: how many times you've seen the sun dip beneath the horizon, 578 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: you know, in California. It's it's breathtaking. I mean, it 579 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: really is. I put Alabama's sunsets up against it though, 580 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: down there on the Gulf shores. But anyway, I digress. 581 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: But anyway, I thought they said. 582 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 2: The found the camera, Joe. I thought they were going 583 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 2: to say that ended up being the guy. I really 584 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 2: did think. 585 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and you would think that, but think about 586 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: the investigative work that had to be done to track 587 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: it from place to place to place to place. And 588 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: it's a great lead, it really is. But and that's 589 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: something that is unique to Toby and her life. And 590 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: you're looking for these items. But you know, Dave, one 591 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: of the things that they did come across in addition 592 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: to that in the van is blood evidence, which is 593 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: I think very significant in this case because how many 594 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: years are we talking about now, o Lord, let me 595 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: see just to give. 596 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 2: You guys an idea. Okay, when it happened in November 597 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 2: of eighty three, they had no suspects, they did have 598 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 2: minimal evidence, They did have some They did have what 599 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,720 Speaker 2: we now refer to as DNA, They had blood evidence, 600 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 2: They had the cokecam with the fingerprint on it. They 601 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 2: had the camera they were able to track down two 602 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 2: years later, but could never track it back to where 603 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 2: it originally came from out of that van. So after 604 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 2: that two years, it was pretty much over, you know, 605 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 2: until until all these years later when the cold case 606 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 2: squads have gotten together. Thankfully, so many departments have put 607 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 2: these together, and oftentimes it's men and women who have 608 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 2: been investigators that are now facing retirement, even in their 609 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 2: retirement years, are working cold cases back and they're solving 610 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 2: crimes based on some of this incredible technology that we 611 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,720 Speaker 2: have now. And in this particular case, Joseph Scott Morgan, 612 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three, a new detective came in, not 613 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 2: new to the case. Yeah, and they said, take a 614 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 2: look and see what you can find. He pulls out 615 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,800 Speaker 2: the old evidence. Obviously they saved it properly, and so boom, 616 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 2: what do they do? 617 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,240 Speaker 1: Joe, Well, it's you know, when they start to dig 618 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: into this case and again years years down the road, 619 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 1: they begin to think, well, they do have this DNA evidence. 620 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: But here's the thing about it is that with the 621 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:09,320 Speaker 1: DNA evidence they were able to create a DNA profile. 622 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: They knew that the profile was going to be male. 623 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 1: But here's here's and this has got to be so 624 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,919 Speaker 1: frustrating I think for for many people UH that are investigators. 625 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,399 Speaker 1: You plug it in, you plug it into CODIS, which 626 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: is the national database, and you get bupcus you know 627 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 1: it's it's a dead end. So they didn't quit. And 628 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,760 Speaker 1: that that's the beauty of these cold case squads. And 629 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: you know, you and I we have a front row 630 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 1: seat to this. Brother. You know, we see this played 631 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: out before all the time. It's it's better than going 632 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: to going as mcgranny, you say, is better than going 633 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,399 Speaker 1: to picture show, you know, because you know we get 634 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,879 Speaker 1: to see this really played out before us in real 635 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: time and how this how this happens. And it goes 636 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: back to tenacity, and it also goes back I have 637 00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:01,359 Speaker 1: to say to UH, to technology and and also I 638 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: think a willingness on the part of the local the 639 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: local constabulary prosecutors to stick their neck out. It's not really, 640 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: they're not really. You know what if you got to lose, 641 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 1: you know, what do you have to lose. You know, 642 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:19,959 Speaker 1: you got nothing to begin with. You know, nothing from nothing, 643 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: leaves nothing. You know, to stick your nose out and 644 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,879 Speaker 1: take a risk, take the DNA that you have, because 645 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 1: it's forty years man, it's forty years after the fact. 646 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: They don't get a hit in Codis. But who do 647 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: they turn to, Well, they turned to the Woodlands, the Woodlands, Texas, 648 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: and they go to our friends at authrom and authoram 649 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: is able to actually build out a profile on two subjects, 650 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 1: not just one. There were two subjects day that were 651 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: involved in Toby's homicide. 652 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 2: And for whatever reason, investigators believed there were two people 653 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 2: involved from the very big that was part of the reports. 654 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 2: They did not believe it was one person crime. I 655 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 2: don't know how, I don't know. 656 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: I really have to wonder, and this is one of 657 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: the things that I go back to from a forensics perspective. 658 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: I'm really wondering, you know. First off, when I heard 659 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: that this was a woman who was out there with 660 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 1: her dogs and she's got a predator chasing her. I 661 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 1: thought that there was going to be a sexual element 662 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,239 Speaker 1: to this, that you know, they're going to track her down, 663 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 1: sexually assault her, you know, again within the confines of 664 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: the van, and then just end her right there after 665 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 1: they've done this horrible thing to her. And I thought 666 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: about the evidence relative to that, Dave. You know, one 667 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,799 Speaker 1: of the things that kind of jumped to mind, and 668 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: I don't know what to think about this surrounding the 669 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: van is very kind of soft, sandy soil. I really 670 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 1: wonder if they saw multiple sets of prints there, footprints 671 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: oh okay, and they're comparing sizes out there, and they're 672 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: thinking okay, and not just sizes, but treadwear patterns, like 673 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: this guy had on a pair of slick show slick 674 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 1: sole loafers, maybe a person had a pair of sneakers, 675 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: maybe some guys wearing boots. They may have been able 676 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: to look and see at the impressions and saying, yeah, 677 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,359 Speaker 1: we got one heavy guy and we got one guy 678 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: that's lighter because of the depth of the print itself 679 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: or the footprint. I don't know that to be the fact, 680 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: because you know, a lot of these cases like this, Dave, 681 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: and that's kind of I think One of the things 682 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 1: that makes that makes them fascinating is that even though 683 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: you kind of find out who did it, with time, 684 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: mystery continues to build because in the you know, through 685 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: the through the sands of time, you know, pun intended 686 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 1: that may have gotten lost in sauce, you know that, Yeah, 687 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:58,240 Speaker 1: we saw evidence of two sets of including not including Toby's, 688 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 1: but we saw two male footprints out there, two sets 689 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: of them, two different people there. And it could be 690 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 1: that small thing like that that gets them to thinking, Okay, now, 691 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,359 Speaker 1: I don't know if they could ever verify that or not, 692 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: but there was some reason. You can also have eyewitnesses 693 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: that perhaps have seen guys kind of skulking around maybe 694 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: in this area, maybe wanting beach access. Maybe they had 695 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: an eyewitness or somebody that just passed by and say, yeah, 696 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: I saw a couple of guys out here. And again 697 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: in some detective's notes, that's lost you know years, you know, 698 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: forty years later. You don't have that data necessarily any longer. 699 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: But when when Authram was asked to quote unquote pull 700 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,319 Speaker 1: the trigger on this, they did, Dave and voyage, did 701 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: they really harvest a bounty, didn't they? 702 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,360 Speaker 2: You know, I like the fact that the way it 703 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,799 Speaker 2: was mentioned, because one thing we have found out is 704 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 2: that with AUTHORM it's a give and take in investigation. 705 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 2: They do this work the forensic genetic genealogy powered by 706 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 2: authoram's forensic DNA sequencing platform. That's how it's listed. Okay, 707 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:08,839 Speaker 2: but the detectives back home, they get the information from 708 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 2: AUTHRAM and they have to get They hit the streets 709 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 2: again and they file more reports and then they get 710 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 2: back and author them then takes the next bit. It's 711 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 2: an amazing time. It doesn't It's not like they just 712 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 2: run it through a computer program and out pops two 713 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 2: people you'd never even thought of. There's a lot of 714 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 2: investigation from the part of AUTHRAM and the local constabulary 715 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,040 Speaker 2: as you refer to them. And I love that because 716 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 2: everybody's involved and they know that you're not going to 717 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,840 Speaker 2: solve this case without the science. And it's amazing that 718 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:39,759 Speaker 2: they came up with these two people. But one of 719 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 2: those guys, man, here's the deal, Joe, one of these 720 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,319 Speaker 2: guys would get drunk and shoot his gun off. 721 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they yeah, And that's fascinating. You know, two 722 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:52,759 Speaker 1: years after I guess it's two years after Toby's homicide 723 00:41:54,360 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 1: a fellow by the name of Charlie Snead who remember 724 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 1: the soda can that was his prince. Okay, he was 725 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,879 Speaker 1: popping off rounds in the middle of town prior to 726 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 1: prior to the homicide, and I'm sorry, prior to the 727 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: homicide in nineteen eighty three, he's popping off rounds in 728 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: that area and he winds up getting hooked up in 729 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,640 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five. He got hooked up in nineteen eighty 730 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:32,959 Speaker 1: five after he had committed an aggravated kidnapping yep, which 731 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 1: is interesting. 732 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 2: How does that not make them go? 733 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 1: Await a minute. 734 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 2: You know, I'm not going to jump on anybody's bandwagon here, 735 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:46,759 Speaker 2: but I'm thinking maybe maybe Tobe couldn't be kidnapped, you know, 736 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 2: And so she was killed because he got hooked up 737 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,879 Speaker 2: on the aggravated kidnapping charge. Now aggravated means usually there's 738 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 2: a weapon involved, right. 739 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:59,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it does. And so you've got one individual 740 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,359 Speaker 1: out of this group that are out of this pair 741 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,400 Speaker 1: that I'm going to tell you about, that are that 742 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: has has a proclivity toward violence, Okay, already, and you 743 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,480 Speaker 1: think and maybe you know at that point, Tom, you're 744 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 1: not in it because look, you know, cops roll out 745 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,400 Speaker 1: on cases all the time where you've got while people, 746 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,239 Speaker 1: you know, firing weapons off indiscriminately in the front yard, 747 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,319 Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff. Maybe they didn't you know, 748 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,399 Speaker 1: put two and two together. But I think the real 749 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 1: hook here, as far as Authorm is concerned, is what 750 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,560 Speaker 1: actually brought this thing to a head is the fact 751 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 1: that the second individual who had left DNA at the 752 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:46,360 Speaker 1: scene of Toby's homicide, he's identified, Uh, he's identified, and 753 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:51,240 Speaker 1: he's he's a individual named Stephen Richard Hardy. And again 754 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 1: through Authorm's work, through genetic sequencing, uh and running his 755 00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:02,520 Speaker 1: you know, his family tree, they were able to they 756 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,520 Speaker 1: were able to narrow it down to him. Now, I 757 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:07,919 Speaker 1: think that for those of you that are waiting for 758 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,759 Speaker 1: some grand ending here, the really kind of unfulfilling part 759 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 1: to this is that neither one of these people are 760 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,600 Speaker 1: going to receive in this life at least justice because 761 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: they're now dead. They have died. And on an aside here, Dave, 762 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:28,799 Speaker 1: I find this interesting. Have you ever heard the old 763 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 1: adage about people from California? When you meet people from California, 764 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,319 Speaker 1: one of the first questions they ask is is where 765 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 1: you originally from, because nobody's actually from California. In a 766 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 1: kind of an interesting twist, No three of these people, 767 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,120 Speaker 1: including Toby or either one of these perpetrators were from California. 768 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:51,480 Speaker 1: Both of these guys originate out of Texas, and Toby 769 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:58,120 Speaker 1: of course from Colorado. And you know, it's life and 770 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,880 Speaker 1: death are funny that way. Sometimes you take a twisted 771 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,919 Speaker 1: path to a destination, to a destination that you don't 772 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:10,880 Speaker 1: know that you're actually traveling toward. But in this particular instance, 773 00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,080 Speaker 1: it came to a head on that beach or the 774 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 1: beach front there adjacent to San Luis Obispo, and one 775 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,960 Speaker 1: family's life was forever changed because of the absence of 776 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,279 Speaker 1: Toby and of course her beloved dogs. And it took 777 00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:31,320 Speaker 1: them forty years. It took them forty years to determine 778 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:37,440 Speaker 1: who perpetrated this crime against their daughter, their sister, their 779 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,480 Speaker 1: colleague that they worked with, the person that they loved, 780 00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,640 Speaker 1: that took beautiful photos and that was an artist at heart. 781 00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:52,120 Speaker 1: But it happened because people didn't quit. And my friends, please, 782 00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 1: I beg you if you're interested in lending a hand 783 00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:01,240 Speaker 1: to helping out, helping out with cases that seems unsolvable. 784 00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:07,239 Speaker 1: This is your chance. Check out dnasols dot com, go 785 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 1: visit that web page that's the authorn folks, and they 786 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,120 Speaker 1: will let you know what cases are available out there too, 787 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,880 Speaker 1: in fact, to be solved. You can do it regionally 788 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:17,400 Speaker 1: if you want to. You can see if there's anything 789 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,520 Speaker 1: in your state, maybe your county, maybe your town, and 790 00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:22,719 Speaker 1: they're just asking for a couple of bucks. It takes 791 00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,000 Speaker 1: seventy five hundred dollars to pull the trigger on the scene, 792 00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,239 Speaker 1: or as I like to say, flip the switch, and 793 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,560 Speaker 1: that's that. They're doing this on a shoe string, because 794 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,440 Speaker 1: this technology is so very high end. But David Middleman 795 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,640 Speaker 1: and Kristen Middleman want to make this happen for families 796 00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:44,600 Speaker 1: because it's not about living in the biggest house buying 797 00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,960 Speaker 1: a yacht for them. Their goal is to clear out 798 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,879 Speaker 1: the nameless list, and it doesn't necessarily have to be homicides. 799 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,960 Speaker 1: It can be just some poor unidentified soul that has 800 00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,640 Speaker 1: left and empty chair behind. I urge each of you 801 00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,520 Speaker 1: to go out and take a look, dig in, check 802 00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,799 Speaker 1: out DNA softs and see if there's a case you're 803 00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:13,120 Speaker 1: interested in. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags,