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Speaker 1: Welcome to stot to Blow Your Mind production of My

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert lamp and I'm Joe McCormick, and

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Speaker 1: we're back going into the Labyrinth again. This is going

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Speaker 1: to be the second part of our series on the

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Speaker 1: Minotaur for this October. I'm so excited because, in addition

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Speaker 1: to talking more about the maze and the Monster, today

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be interviewing a professor who specializes in the

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Speaker 1: history of my Noan crete. That's right, we're delighted to

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Speaker 1: have Nicoletta Mamiliano, professor of the gen Studies at the

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Speaker 1: University of Bristol, on the show. Uh. She's the author

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Speaker 1: of the new book In Search of the Labyrinth, The

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Speaker 1: Cultural Legacy of Minoan Crete, which is available now in paperback,

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Speaker 1: hardback and as an e book. And it's a beautiful book,

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Speaker 1: just loaded with with wonderful illustrations and photographs of you know,

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Speaker 1: of the various motifs that she discusses in the book.

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Speaker 1: All right, so before we jump into our conversation, we

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Speaker 1: should probably do a quick overview of my knowing Creed

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Speaker 1: just to give you a little bit of background. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You know, in our previous episode on the Mintar, we

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Speaker 1: touched a little bit on the fact that these are

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Speaker 1: Greek myths concerning the Manoan civilization on the isle of Crete. Um.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, let's get a let's just lay a little

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Speaker 1: groundwork for the interview to follow. So. Crete is an

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Speaker 1: island in the Eastern Mediterranean, the fifth largest in fact,

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Speaker 1: it's part of what is now the nation of Greece.

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Speaker 1: It's long, it's narrow, it's a largely mountainous Today it's

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Speaker 1: a melting pot of European, Asian and African cultures and

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Speaker 1: it's well positioned to bridge those cultures now. Stone tools

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Speaker 1: on Crete have been dated back a hundred thirty thousand years,

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Speaker 1: but true human settlements weren't found here until uh it

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Speaker 1: seems like b C. But it was home to what

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Speaker 1: is sometimes referred to as the first advanced European civilization.

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Speaker 1: It was established by three thousand b c E and

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Speaker 1: by two thousand b C. They were building palaces and

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Speaker 1: exhibited a rich culture. They thrived till at least fourteen

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Speaker 1: fifty b C, when they ended up entering into a

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Speaker 1: period of decline. Okay, So, in the Greek myth of theseus.

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Speaker 1: In the Minotaur, we are getting a sort of exo mythology,

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Speaker 1: a depiction of a past, once flourishing culture, but depicted

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Speaker 1: from the outside by a different culture, and in a

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Speaker 1: somewhat pejorative way, at least in in that particular story,

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Speaker 1: right that the idea that there's a monster there and

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Speaker 1: that the Greek city states like Athens would have to

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Speaker 1: pay tribute to the monster in the palace on in

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Speaker 1: my knowing creed. Yeah, and and one of the big

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Speaker 1: things we have to keep in mind is that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we we're dealing with one ancient people's interpretations of another

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Speaker 1: ancient people. Um. So we while we refer to this

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Speaker 1: Bronze Age civilization today as Minoan Crete, the name itself

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Speaker 1: here is referring to King Minos in Greek traditions. We

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Speaker 1: simply don't know what the pre Hellenistic inhabitants of this

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Speaker 1: island called themselves. Some scholars, according to Momiliano, believe that

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Speaker 1: the second millennium BC Egyptians knew them as the people

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Speaker 1: of Kef Two. The Minoan distinction stems from the early

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Speaker 1: twentieth century. Uh this is it was dubbed by Sir

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Speaker 1: Arthur Evans the famous excavator of Nosis, the the major

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Speaker 1: city there on what is what is now crete. Alright,

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Speaker 1: So Arthur Evans working on excavating this ancient structure at

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Speaker 1: Canossus Uh is knowingly he's not suggesting that like the

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Speaker 1: mythical king Minos was actually the king who lived in

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Speaker 1: this palace, but saying, well, that is the terminology that

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Speaker 1: we already have applied to it in a mythological context,

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Speaker 1: so we might as well just use it to apply

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Speaker 1: to the archaeological remains of this actual civilization, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think realizing that sort of it adds the

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Speaker 1: mystery of it all right, you know, into into the

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Speaker 1: wonder again of of not just an ancient civilization, but

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Speaker 1: one ancient civilizations interpretation of that which came before thinking

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Speaker 1: about ancient Greek myths pertaining to the civilization of my

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Speaker 1: knowing crete uh brings up a subject that we've talked

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Speaker 1: about on the show before. But it's the modern tendency

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Speaker 1: to kind of compress all of ancient history together and

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Speaker 1: not realize how much time actually elapsed within what we

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Speaker 1: call ancient history. Like, for example, if you were Julius

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Speaker 1: Caesar living in the you know, the first century BC

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Speaker 1: of the Roman Republic. The ancient parts of ancient Egypt

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Speaker 1: were more ancient to him than ancient Rome is to

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Speaker 1: us now, like that much time had gone by, and

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Speaker 1: so there were huge gaps of history in the ancient

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Speaker 1: world even, I mean there were there were that the

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Speaker 1: ancient Greeks also could look back on mysterious, vanished ancient

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Speaker 1: civilizations and not know anymore about them necessarily than we

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Speaker 1: know about a lot of ancient law civilizations today. That's right.

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Speaker 1: And so in some respects of me personally, when I'm

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Speaker 1: reading about all this and thinking about all this, it's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like a game of telephone across the ages,

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Speaker 1: with different cultures interpreting different cultures. Uh. And and I

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Speaker 1: think stuff like the particularly the myth of the Minotaur,

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Speaker 1: is a perfect example of this. As it be you know,

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Speaker 1: begins as something to some extent rooted in this part

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Speaker 1: of the world and and an isolated around at least

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Speaker 1: thoughts about crete, and then it becomes this this Greek thing,

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Speaker 1: and then it every time it is handled, every time

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Speaker 1: it is retold, it becomes uh, you know, it takes

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Speaker 1: on particles of new cultures and new concerns and new

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Speaker 1: people totally. Before we jump right into the interview here,

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Speaker 1: just want to throw in a couple of notes. First

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Speaker 1: of all, at around the fourteen minute mark, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: hear a couple of outlook pings. Uh. That's just part

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Speaker 1: of doing uh remote recordings these days. But don't worry,

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Speaker 1: it's it's us, not you, and the will only be

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Speaker 1: a couple of them. It's not gonna keep going throughout

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Speaker 1: the interview. Also, I want to point out that our

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Speaker 1: guests at around twenty five minutes then is going to

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Speaker 1: mention Mason's marks, And just to give you a little background,

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Speaker 1: these are marks that were found on masonry that are

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Speaker 1: sort of a signature of the individuals that created the

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Speaker 1: masonry work. Good dad that note, because I did not

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Speaker 1: know what Mason's marks were until until we look that up. Well,

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Speaker 1: on that note, let's go ahead and jump into our

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Speaker 1: interview with Professor Nicoletta Momiliano. Let's start with your book,

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Speaker 1: In Search of the Labyrinth, the Cultural Legacy of the

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Speaker 1: Noan Crete. Where did the idea for the book come

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Speaker 1: from and what did you set out to accomplish with it? Well,

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Speaker 1: I have always been fascinated by the history of research

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Speaker 1: in anyone given subject. That is, I've always been fascinated

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Speaker 1: by the complex relationship between past and present. I've always

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Speaker 1: been interested in how a particular discipline has developed over

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Speaker 1: the centuries. That is, how theories, methods, research questions can

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Speaker 1: change from one generation to another. And of course the

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Speaker 1: way in which scholarly research and agendas developed is related

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Speaker 1: to our present, is related to what happens in the present.

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Speaker 1: And for me, the minor on past and the minor

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Speaker 1: on cultural legacy, it's not just what happened in the

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Speaker 1: second and third millennium BC, that is, the traditional chronology

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Speaker 1: given to minor and civilization. And also the minor on

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Speaker 1: legacy is not just, as I said, what happened in

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Speaker 1: the second and third millennium BC, and what possible material

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Speaker 1: or icono, graphic, linguistic, or even spiritual legacy may have

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Speaker 1: been transmitted to us via my Snian Greece and then

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Speaker 1: later via classical Greece. For me, what we now call

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Speaker 1: mine own creed is the product of interpretations, reconstructions, and

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Speaker 1: complex entanglements between objects and ideas about them, and these

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Speaker 1: ideas are influenced by the present. I also think that

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Speaker 1: is it's very important for scholars to try and understand

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Speaker 1: how their own discipline, how their own subject is perceived

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Speaker 1: beyond academia. And I think artistic and literary imaginations of

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Speaker 1: mine own creed are good to think with. They may

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Speaker 1: stimulate new ways of looking at ancient objects. New imaginations

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Speaker 1: can make me, as a scholar, appreciate what is significant

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Speaker 1: or not about my discipline for the general public. And

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Speaker 1: after all, it is the general public, the taxpayer, who

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Speaker 1: funds my research, and I think I have the duty

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Speaker 1: to understand what fascinates would interest the general public, not

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Speaker 1: just me as a scholar. Now, in broad strokes, what

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Speaker 1: does the treatment of Minoan civilization in Greek mythology reveal

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Speaker 1: about Minoan creeds place in ancient Greek culture? Well, in

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Speaker 1: ancient Greek culture, in Greek mythology, what we now call

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Speaker 1: minor and Crete appears as a really strange and contradictory

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Speaker 1: place create in Greek mythology is a law and where

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Speaker 1: immortal Zeus, who was also the father of King Minus,

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Speaker 1: to where Zeus was nurtured, but also where he died

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Speaker 1: and where he was buried. My nor and Crete was

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Speaker 1: also a land ruled by law giving King Minus, who

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Speaker 1: was a kind of Cretan Moses and King Minus conversed

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Speaker 1: with and was wisely guided by his father Zeus. But

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Speaker 1: Crete was also a land rife with extreme sexual desires,

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Speaker 1: with adultery, bestiality, mostly involving women and bulls, pederasti, human sacrifice, magic, murder,

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Speaker 1: and betrayal. So I would say the treatment of my

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Speaker 1: non civilizations in Greek mythology reveals a rather ambivalent aptitude

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Speaker 1: by the Greeks towards this island and her past. This

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Speaker 1: reminds me of some parallels with, say, the Biblical view

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Speaker 1: of the Antediluvian time, the time before the flood in

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Speaker 1: the Book of Genesis, which I think is simultaneously thought

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Speaker 1: of as a time of greatness but also a time

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Speaker 1: of sort of chaos and immorality. Uh. Do you see

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Speaker 1: any parallels there? Or am I running off the tracks here? Well?

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Speaker 1: Why not? I think in a sense it's it's when

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Speaker 1: people are trying to make sense of a very distant

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Speaker 1: past of which they have very very um vague understanding

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Speaker 1: and memories, they change it, something gets lost in translation.

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Speaker 1: In a sense, um people are trying to they know

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Speaker 1: that there was something that happened in a very very

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Speaker 1: distant past, but they've lost the full understanding of it,

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Speaker 1: and so they try to explain it, sometimes in ways

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Speaker 1: that tell you more about their present than actually the past.

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Speaker 1: All right, on that note, we're going to take a

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Speaker 1: quick break, but we'll be right back with Nicoletta Momiliano

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Speaker 1: and we're back. In your book, you discuss how how

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Speaker 1: even the ancient Greeks used fragments of Minoan material culture

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Speaker 1: as a catalyst for further creativity. Could you give us

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Speaker 1: an example and explain what that means? Yeah, Um, I

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Speaker 1: can give you a very very precise example, which is

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Speaker 1: provided by some Greek pottery pottery of later periods that

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Speaker 1: was found at nassauce Um, pottery that dates to the

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Speaker 1: early to the Greek Early Iron Age, that is to

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Speaker 1: the late ninth and eight centuries BC. There is one pot,

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Speaker 1: in particular, a lead that was found in a minor

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Speaker 1: on tomb, which my own tomb that had been cleared

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Speaker 1: and reused in the Early Iron Age and the Early

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Speaker 1: Iron Age pot is decorated with an octopus motif, and

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Speaker 1: this motif is actually relatively rare in the Early Iron Age,

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Speaker 1: but of course it's one of the motives that was

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Speaker 1: quite common in my non crete and on this lead.

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Speaker 1: The way which the octopus is depicted, the position of

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Speaker 1: the octopus head above the tentacles, the number of tentacles,

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Speaker 1: which is eight, suggests that it's really derived from my

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Speaker 1: non pottery of the so called marine style, and not

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Speaker 1: from later examples, for example Mycenean period, where the position

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Speaker 1: of the head is inverted and sometimes the number of

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Speaker 1: the tentacles is reduced. So the decoration in this spot

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Speaker 1: is inspired by my non models, but it's also something

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Speaker 1: new because it's created in a new style, in the

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Speaker 1: style of the early Iron Age. And there are also,

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Speaker 1: i think other aspects of my non material culture that

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Speaker 1: acted as catalyst for further creativity. For example, the large

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Speaker 1: ruins of the Palace of Cnassauce and perhaps even some

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Speaker 1: of the frescos that remained visible um for a few

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Speaker 1: generations or even centuries after the palace was abandoned. The

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Speaker 1: ruins were certainly quite visible even in later centuries that

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Speaker 1: we know for sure. But who created these buildings, what

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Speaker 1: these buildings represented, we're no longer part of leaving memory.

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Speaker 1: People had forgotten all that, and yet people felt the

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Speaker 1: need to provide some explanations of what these ruins represented,

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Speaker 1: and so later Greeks created these wonderful, fantastic stories of

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Speaker 1: monsters and labyrinth, of women having sex with bulls, powerful

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Speaker 1: kings that were half divine and half human. It's actually

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Speaker 1: it's also related to what Joe was asking earlier. I think, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is this is very interesting because I think often

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Speaker 1: when we think about ideological myths, the myths that are

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Speaker 1: supposed to explain the origin of something. The most common

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Speaker 1: thing people think of are explaining natural phenomena, you know,

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Speaker 1: myths to explain where the why the mountains or this way,

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Speaker 1: or where the lightning comes from. But there are also

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Speaker 1: ideological myths to explain cultural artifacts a few and civilization

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Speaker 1: of course, and there are I think there are explanations

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Speaker 1: that relate to our physical world. You know, it's not

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Speaker 1: whether it's natural phenomena or buildings. But this is the

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Speaker 1: point I'm making is precided that it's that these things

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Speaker 1: are no longer part of living memory. And that's one

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Speaker 1: when people are trying to create stories about them, sometimes

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Speaker 1: they tell us more about the present than really what

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Speaker 1: happened in the past. It's almost as if they were

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Speaker 1: natural phenomena. It's almost as if they are a mountain

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Speaker 1: range or something like that. Yes, well, I think people

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Speaker 1: probably in the case of ruins of buildings, they would

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Speaker 1: recognize what they were. But sometimes they were so astounded

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Speaker 1: by kinds of buildings that people were no longer able

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Speaker 1: to produce in later centuries that sometimes they attributed their

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Speaker 1: constructions to lords, for example, moving from my non creat

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Speaker 1: to other areas. But the Walls of Troy that the

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Speaker 1: Walls of Troy's, of course were built in the middle

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Speaker 1: of the early middle second millennium BC, but the way

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Speaker 1: in which they are described in the Homeric poems eight

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Speaker 1: seventh century b C, as if if they had been

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Speaker 1: built by gods. But of course they were not built

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Speaker 1: by gods. They were built by human people like you

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Speaker 1: and me. But people had forgotten this, and they were

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Speaker 1: so astounding that they thought they explained them as being

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Speaker 1: built by supernatural beings. And we've seen something similar in

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Speaker 1: recent centuries as well. Correct. Yes, to some extent um

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Speaker 1: since the rediscovery of my non creat in the early

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Speaker 1: twentieth century, thanks to the excavations of Saraharta Evans at

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Speaker 1: Cranssat and by other archeologists and other science writer and

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Speaker 1: artists have been inspired by the material culture of my

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Speaker 1: non creed to create something new, from poems to ballet

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Speaker 1: or paintings. And the French writer Paul Moron, in an

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Speaker 1: article he wrote in the nineteen sixties, used the term

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Speaker 1: creto mania to describe this phenomenon. Treto Mania is of

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Speaker 1: course a term similar to earlier terms and used to

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Speaker 1: describe similar phenomena such as Egyptomania, Great Romania, Helenomania. So

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Speaker 1: is ancient Cretomania comparable to our modern fascination and retellings

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Speaker 1: of various historical settings and motifs like I'm instantly thinking

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Speaker 1: of modern Roman sagas or various Viking TV shows and

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Speaker 1: the like. Yes, again, to some extent, kryto mania is

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Speaker 1: above all borrowing of mynorn elements to create something completely

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Speaker 1: new um and sometimes though my non elements are also

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Speaker 1: used to give a more ancient, more archaic, and more

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Speaker 1: Bronze Age look to later Greek dramas uh that are

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Speaker 1: set in what we now call the Bronze Age or

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Speaker 1: heroic past of Greece. But krito mania is above all

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Speaker 1: the use of minorana elements to create something new contemporary.

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Speaker 1: Now in discussing the minute are, we of course are

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Speaker 1: discussing balls. How did balls factor into Minoan civilization and

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Speaker 1: how is this reflected in Greek myth? Well, bulls appear

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Speaker 1: very very frequently in minor representations, especially from the mid

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Speaker 1: to late second millennium BC. We find representations of bulls

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Speaker 1: in frescoes, pottery, terracotta figurines, in tiny, tiny seal stones

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Speaker 1: UM and particularly fascinating are the representations of bull leaping,

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Speaker 1: that is, of human figures producing acrobatic somersaults over the

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Speaker 1: back of charging bulls. But interestingly and contrastingly, depiction of

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Speaker 1: mynotor images, that is, of creatures that are half bull

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Speaker 1: and half human are actually very very rare and relatively

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Speaker 1: late in my non creed. And also we may wonder

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Speaker 1: whether some of these representation may simply be very stylized

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Speaker 1: representations of bull leaping because they appear on tiny seal

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Speaker 1: stones or seal impressions UM and animals human hybrids do

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Speaker 1: exist in my non treat but it's also interesting to

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Speaker 1: see that there is no prevalence of bulls necessarily because

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Speaker 1: some of these human hybrid representations, including some of the

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Speaker 1: early ones tend to involve other animals um birds or goads,

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Speaker 1: for example. So how exactly one god from my non

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Speaker 1: brules to later Greek representations of the minotor as a

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Speaker 1: hybrid figure is not entirely clear, and I think this

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Speaker 1: process must have been quite complex, and exactly what happened

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Is it possible to infer anything about

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Speaker 1: the tone of how these images are presented in actual

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Speaker 1: mining artwork? So the depictions of bull leaping or of

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Speaker 1: animal human hybrids, including with bullparts, or as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: with birds or goats, does this convey a sense of um,

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Speaker 1: of fearfulness or terror the way the minotaur would in

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Speaker 1: Greek myth? Or is the tone different? Does that make

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Speaker 1: any sense? Well, as I said, it's um, I don't.

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Speaker 1: I think we have to decouple bull representations in Minor

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Speaker 1: and creat and later representations, because really how we got

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Speaker 1: from one to the other, it's really complicated, and I

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Speaker 1: honestly don't know how this high and whether there is

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Speaker 1: a necessarily a direct link. Some people have even suggested

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Speaker 1: that the minor tours in later Greece are not necessarily

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Speaker 1: derived from my non creat but are derived from are

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Speaker 1: the Near Eastern civilizations later civilizations. But the way in

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Speaker 1: which bulls are presented in my norn Creed do they

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Speaker 1: show terror? I don't. Well, certainly not all of them. Um.

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Speaker 1: The contrary, some people UM describe the the acrobatics over

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Speaker 1: bulls like almost like a kind of dance over over bulls.

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Speaker 1: It's a like a very interesting showing kind of relationship

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Speaker 1: between human and animals. I wouldn't say they represent anything

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Speaker 1: necessarily terror. I mean, there are some representations where you said,

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Speaker 1: see human beings being gored by bulls, but many other representations.

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Speaker 1: Is is the human being who successfully produces these wonderful

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Speaker 1: somersaults over the boom, So I wouldn't say it's necessarily terror.

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Speaker 1: And the other hybrid figures, and they are so small, um,

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Speaker 1: they are not part of large compositions, it would be

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Speaker 1: difficult to say whether they have any fearful terror elements

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Speaker 1: in them. I would say probably. The answer to that

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Speaker 1: is again my hunch is probably no. It simply shows

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Speaker 1: an interesting fascination in the animal world. Now, of course,

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Speaker 1: the myths involved the greatness involved not only the minute

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Speaker 1: are but the labyrinth. Is there currently any archaeological evidence

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Speaker 1: to support the existence of the Manoan labyrinth of Greek myth,

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Speaker 1: or some actual structure or complex they would have inspired it.

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Speaker 1: I mean yes and no in the sense that there

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Speaker 1: is all building in my non tree that can be

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Speaker 1: described as a complicated maze, that is a complicated system

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Speaker 1: of parts or edges, designed as a puzzle through which

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Speaker 1: one has to find the way. No, but the ruins

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Speaker 1: of my non palaces, especially the ruins of cnaissance Um,

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Speaker 1: can have for us a kind of labyrin fine appearance.

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Speaker 1: And also, Sir after Evans, the excavator of Croissance, presented

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Speaker 1: the large stature that he excavated as the real Cretan labyrine,

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Speaker 1: because he connected the word labyrinth with labries, which is

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Speaker 1: a term used in later Greek text to indicate the

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Speaker 1: double axe. I And he also suggested that labyrinth meant

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Speaker 1: the house of the double ax, because he noted that

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Speaker 1: many mason's marks found at Cnaissance in very prominent locations

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Speaker 1: had the shape of this object had the shape of

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Speaker 1: a double axe. But I should like to remark that

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Speaker 1: the connection between the word labyrinth and labraries appears to

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Speaker 1: be much more tenuous than Evans suggested, because there are

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Speaker 1: linguistic difficulties in relating the these two words that have

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Speaker 1: been pointed out by several philologists, by several linguists. And

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Speaker 1: also I'd like to remark that yes, Mason's marks in

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Speaker 1: the shape of a double axe do appear very frequently,

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Speaker 1: and perhaps most frequently at Croisence than the my non sides,

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Speaker 1: but they're not exclusive to Souce. You can find in

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Speaker 1: them also at other minor on sides. And also that

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Speaker 1: there are other signs are the masons marks that are

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Speaker 1: also very common at Sauce. Now in addition to the

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Speaker 1: militar and the labyrinthy, of course, the other key part

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Speaker 1: of these stories is King Minos himself behind the you know,

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Speaker 1: the fantastic and the monstrous aspects of the particular character

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Speaker 1: that we find in Greek mythology. Is there a true

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Speaker 1: historic element to this king? Who knows? Perhaps possibly, But

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Speaker 1: the issue who really ruled in My non Crete is

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Speaker 1: very much debated. And perhaps we should bear in mind

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Speaker 1: that when we talk of my non Crete we speak

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Speaker 1: of about two millennia, and it is very likely that

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Speaker 1: political system the social organizations changed in the two millennia.

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Speaker 1: Some scholars think that perhaps some form of royalty and

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Speaker 1: perhaps even of Crossian supremacy may have existed in Crete,

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Speaker 1: especially in what archeologists called the neoplational period, that is,

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Speaker 1: from about seventeen hundred to fourteen fifty BC. But there

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Speaker 1: are also many scholars who prefer to see my norn

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Speaker 1: Creed as ruled by women or by some kind of

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Speaker 1: gender balanced elite class, almost like council or a corporation

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Speaker 1: of men and women together, rather than a single ruler.

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Speaker 1: But it's possible that for some part of the history

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Speaker 1: of my Now and Crete, for some periods, there may

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Speaker 1: have been a supreme ruler whose memory might have inspired

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Speaker 1: later stories about King Mines. All right, on that note,

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Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be

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Speaker 1: right back with Nicoletta Momiliano. And we're back now. As

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Speaker 1: for the minotar, the mythic minotar itself, why do you

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Speaker 1: think the minetar resonates so strongly in Western traditions. Do

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Speaker 1: you think it reveals something about the broader human condition,

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Speaker 1: or rather, are we inflating and building on something that

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Speaker 1: would have had, you know, far different, more specific associations

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Speaker 1: for ancient people's Well, I think that at least for

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Speaker 1: some ancient people, for some Greeks, the story of the

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Speaker 1: minor Tour had more specific association um, because in a sense,

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Speaker 1: the Greek myths related to King Minos, the Minotour and

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Speaker 1: song could be seen almost like a morality tale, an

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Speaker 1: example of a punishment inflicted by the gods because King

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00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: Minors didn't keep one of his promises to the gods. Um.

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Speaker 1: But of course, the story of the Minotur, like many

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Speaker 1: many other Greek myths, Greek narratives, and not just Greek narratives,

398
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Speaker 1: but also Near Eastern narratives ken and has been endlessly

399
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Speaker 1: reimagined to address different aspects of the human condition at

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Speaker 1: different times and in different periods. And there are some

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Speaker 1: fascinating examples of really different imaginations and different symbolies of

402
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Speaker 1: the encounter, for example, between theseus and the minotor And

403
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Speaker 1: you can find many examples in literature or in the

404
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: visual and performing arts. From the last novel by andre A.

405
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Speaker 1: Gid says just the encounter is more almost like an

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Speaker 1: encounter between the individual and his own sexuality. Um. There

407
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: are other encounters in uh works by Picasso, in works

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Speaker 1: by the Greek famous Greek author Nikos Kazanzakis, in which

409
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: the encounter between theseus and the Minortor is almost like

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Speaker 1: an encounter between an older civilization and Minoran civilization and

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00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: the Greek civilization UM and so on. So the symbolism

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Speaker 1: changes all the time, and there are so many different examples.

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Speaker 1: So of course it is because it relates to um

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Speaker 1: different aspects of the human condition. I said, whether it's

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Speaker 1: seen as a symbolism of one's sexuality, to the animal

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Speaker 1: elements in human beings, almost like a struggle between different impulses.

417
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Speaker 1: So it can be reimagined and invented with different meanings

418
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Speaker 1: all the time. Now, in your book you you you

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Speaker 1: mentioned various examples of artistic performance or literary works that

420
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Speaker 1: are you know, based in some part on the minetar

421
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Speaker 1: myth or Mino and creed. Do you do you have

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00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: a personal favorite? Now, this is really the most difficult

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Speaker 1: question for me to answer, because you really put me

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00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: on the spot here because I have so many favorites.

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Speaker 1: It's it's very difficult for me to choose because also

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00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: it's so many different materials, as you said, for performance,

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00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: literary works and song in the visual arts. Probably my

428
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: favorite with work occupied by the material culture of my

429
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: non creed is Paul Kleis sketch titled the Snake God

430
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: This and Her Enemy that he created in ninet But

431
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: I also love um one of the sketches made by

432
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: Mark Chagall. One is an irreverent take on famous my

433
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: non fresco of bull leaping. And I also sound like

434
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: some of the paintings by a local Cretan painter, the

435
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: one who actually produced the cover the illustration for the

436
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: cover of my book Roussettos Panaga Takis. He has m

437
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: very very sexy my notor um and uh, and I

438
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: like it very much. It reminds me of salvatorro Da

439
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: L's surrealistic pain teens. And in the performing arts, I

440
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: have a very very soft spot for the gigantic snake

441
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 1: Godness that appears in the opera Mino Tour by the

442
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 1: British composer, a contemporary British composer, Sir Harrison birth Whistle.

443
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: And I also have a soft spot for the ballet

444
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: La Premier didem Phone, which was first performed in nineteen

445
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: twelve in Paris and was choreographed by the famous dancer

446
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: Baslav Nijinsky, and the costumes were created by Leon bas

447
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: and the costumes have some my non elements, and among

448
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 1: literary works, I like a poem written by Cecile Lewis

449
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 1: entitled Statuette Late Minn, which was written around ninety seven

450
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: and again is also inspired by the famous snake goddess

451
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 1: from Claissance. And I love the story the short story

452
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: The Ivory Acrobat by the American writer Don Delilon, and

453
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: the ivoryan Krobat is named after another the famous fine

454
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: Discovery from Cloissance. And I also like Don Delillo's novel

455
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: The Names, which has plenty of references to Minor and

456
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 1: cret so recently on the show. In considering a couple

457
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: of different Greek myths that feature a monster, one's the

458
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: myth of Perseus and Medusa and the other is Theseus

459
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: and the Minotaur. In reading both of them, I find,

460
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 1: as a modern reader, I feel a lot of sympathy

461
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 1: for the monster, for for Medusa, and for the minute hour.

462
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: It seems it seems very unfair to them what happens

463
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: to them, almost like they're not even really the aggressor

464
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: of the story. That the hero is kind of the

465
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: aggressor of the story, and both the case of Perseus

466
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: and and Theseus, so it is that the way of

467
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 1: reading the story completely alien to the context in which

468
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: they originated. Is that just our modern way of interpreting

469
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: a story, where you know, the people who originally told

470
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 1: and heard these stories probably would not have felt such sympathies.

471
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,399
Speaker 1: Or is that element of kind of pity and unfairness

472
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: there even in the ancient understanding of these myths. I

473
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: honestly don't know, because certainly some a lot of modern

474
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: imaginations of the myth of Thesis and the minotur that

475
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: I've come across when working on my book sympathize with

476
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 1: the minotur completely um. For example, in g the minotour

477
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,760
Speaker 1: is not the monster at it's a beautiful young man. Again,

478
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: in Sir Harrison bird Whistles Opera the minotor the sympathy

479
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: is with the minuitor, not with the other people at all. Um.

480
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: To say I mean to say that nobody in antiquity

481
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: ever felt something like this would be I think unfair

482
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: and unjust. There might have been some people in antiquity

483
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 1: who may have felt some sympathy for the monsters. I

484
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: can't exclude this a priority. I would have probably thought

485
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: that the majority of the people didn't, But why not?

486
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 1: I mean it's I mean, it's like saying that everybody,

487
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 1: every modern person now feels sympathy with the minutor. Perhaps

488
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 1: many people do nowadays, but not everybody might do. So

489
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,720
Speaker 1: why should we treat the people who lived in antiquity

490
00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: as a complete single block. Different people may have reacted

491
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: in different ways to these stories. Somebody a bit original

492
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: might have felt sympathy for the minotor why not? And

493
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: some people even thought that the minotoor was not an

494
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 1: animal at all. Even in antiquities. There are lots of

495
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: different explanations and different views, So I would not want

496
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: to say a priori that nobody in antiquity felt sympathy

497
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 1: with the minotor, although it strikes me as perhaps a

498
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: kind of sensibility and uh that it's a bit more modern.

499
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: But ancients could be very modern too in their field,

500
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: in their feelings in there, in the way in which

501
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: they present things that are not necessarily black and white.

502
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: But though this stray is quite a lot from Minoan crete,

503
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 1: these are more to do with the later periods with

504
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: Greek mythology. So it's it's Halloween season for many of

505
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 1: our listeners, so we're wondering if you could commend any

506
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 1: particular suitable minuteur related works for the Halloween season. Um,

507
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 1: Like you mentioned so many different things. For instance, I

508
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: noticed that you mentioned a minute our book by Russian

509
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: author Victor Pelvin. I read it it really enjoyed his

510
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 1: novel The Sacred Book of the Werewolf many years ago,

511
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: and I just hadn't been keeping I hadn't really kept

512
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: up with what other other things he had written. But

513
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 1: you you point out that that he he wrote a

514
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 1: minotar based work as well. Yes. Well, to be perfectly honest,

515
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: I can't think of, um, something that is particularly spooky

516
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: that is in the spirit suitable to Halloween. UM. But

517
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 1: many reimaginations of the myth of the mintor can be

518
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 1: a bit unnerving and disturbing. UM. And indeed, I would

519
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 1: say the book by Victor Peleevin that you have just

520
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 1: referred to, which was published in English with the title

521
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 1: The Helmet of Horrors, I think it's a bit of

522
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: an unnerving story because it reimagines the labyrinth of minus

523
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: any modern internet chat toom that sounds good. This has

524
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 1: been fantastic. Thank you so much for talking to us today.

525
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. All right, well there you have it.

526
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: Thanks once again. So much to Professor Nicoletto Mamiliano again,

527
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: author of In Search of the Labyrinth, the Cultural Legacy

528
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,399
Speaker 1: of Minoan Crete. It's out now. You can find it.

529
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 1: It it you know. It just came out. It's available

530
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 1: in paperback, hardback, and as an e book. In the meantime,

531
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:48,479
Speaker 1: you would like to check out other episodes of Stuff

532
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind, such as our our previous episode

533
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: of the Minotaur on the Minotaur, or if you want

534
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 1: to look out for our next episode that is going

535
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: to deal a little bit more with the minotaur. We

536
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: can't yeah, we can't start. We're lost in the labyrinth. Um.

537
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: If you want to check any of that out. You

538
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: can find our podcast wherever you get your podcasts, wherever

539
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 1: that happens to be. We just asked that you rate

540
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: the review and subscribe. But you can find us at

541
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That'll shoot you

542
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: over to the I heart page for our podcast, and

543
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 1: if you go there, I think there's a link for

544
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: a store you can check that out. There's some t shirts,

545
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 1: some logos, some stickers, et cetera, including a few that

546
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: are mythological in nature. Huge thanks, as always to our

547
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like

548
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: to get in touch with us with feedback on this

549
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,720
Speaker 1: episode or any other, to suggest a topic for the future,

550
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact.

551
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 1: That's Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to

552
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,360
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For

553
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,

554
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.

555
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: My present point four point four pp fo fo fo

556
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: fo