Speaker 1: So many people share the struggle and just don't necessarily
Speaker 1: realize that they don't have a tolerance for having any
Speaker 1: sort of uncomfortable conversation.
Speaker 2: Wow, welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great
Speaker 2: thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have,
Speaker 2: quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 2: you think ring true, And yet for many of us,
Speaker 2: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 2: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 2: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 2: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 2: just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 2: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 2: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 2: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.
Speaker 3: Have you ever noticed how making friends as an adult
Speaker 3: feels weirdly complicated. We say we want more connection, but
Speaker 3: then we don't go to the thing, don't follow up,
Speaker 3: and decide that Netflix just sounds easier. In this episode,
Speaker 3: I talk with Gillian Richardson, author, coach and creator of
Speaker 3: the joy List about why friendship takes more effort than
Speaker 3: we expect, and how we can actually get better at it.
Speaker 3: We explore what gets in the way of connection, why
Speaker 3: it's not just about putting yourself out there, and how
Speaker 3: real community is less about finding perfect people and more
Speaker 3: about staying when things feel a little uncomfortable. I've seen
Speaker 3: this in my own life. I say I want community,
Speaker 3: but then I wait for it just to happen. It doesn't.
Speaker 3: Connection takes practice. You build it, You show up, you
Speaker 3: go to the event, you send the text, and in
Speaker 3: Jillian's case, you even start a monthly dinner party. I'm
Speaker 3: Eric Zimmer, and this is the one you feed. Hi, Jillian,
Speaker 3: Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3: I am really happy to have you on. We are
Speaker 3: going to be discussing your book, which is called un
Speaker 3: Lonely Planet, and you do a lot of work around
Speaker 3: connection and building friendships and lots of things that I
Speaker 3: think are really important. We'll get to all that in
Speaker 3: a minute, but we'll start like we always do, with
Speaker 3: the Parable. In the Parable, there is a grandmother who's
Speaker 3: talking with her grandson and she says, in life, there
Speaker 3: are two wolves inside of us that are always at
Speaker 3: battle one is a good wolf, which represents things like
Speaker 3: kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a
Speaker 3: bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear.
Speaker 3: And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for
Speaker 3: a second, and he looks up at his grandmother. He says, well, grandmother,
Speaker 3: which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed.
Speaker 3: So I'd like to start off by asking you what
Speaker 3: that parable means to you in your life and in
Speaker 3: the work that you do.
Speaker 1: For me, what that parable means is who you choose
Speaker 1: to focus your attention on. I find it really interesting
Speaker 1: that they are the sorts of people who genuinely believe
Speaker 1: that people are good, and then there are other people
Speaker 1: who genuinely believe that most people are bad. And I
Speaker 1: often think about what the difference is between those two
Speaker 1: types of people. And I'm really fascinated by the moments
Speaker 1: when I kind of can get stuck in that headspace
Speaker 1: of just like dating is terrible or people are bad,
Speaker 1: these kind of black and white statements. And I find
Speaker 1: that the more caring energy and attention I give myself,
Speaker 1: the more caring and attentive people I magnetize In my
Speaker 1: own life and also the media that I consume. Kind
Speaker 1: of what I choose to put my attention on will
Speaker 1: then also reflect in my experience of the world.
Speaker 3: I love that, and it makes me think of something
Speaker 3: that you talk about in your book. You were quoting
Speaker 3: this study I don't remember who it's from, but basically says,
Speaker 3: protracted loneliness makes it difficult for us to evaluate other
Speaker 3: people's intentions. Lonely people often feel attacked in situations that
Speaker 3: are actually neutral. I thought that was a really interesting insight, Like,
Speaker 3: the more often you're alone by yourself, the more you
Speaker 3: almost start to do what you said, which is we
Speaker 3: start to look at other people's intentions more suspiciously.
Speaker 1: Yeah, You're at a party and someone just glances at
Speaker 1: you from across the room, and your brain might think,
Speaker 1: oh my god, that person was giving me the side
Speaker 1: eye because I look bad or because they're judging what
Speaker 1: I said, when in reality, they might just be looking
Speaker 1: at you, but you're so alert and looking out for
Speaker 1: signs to confirm you're already bias that people don't like you,
Speaker 1: or people are judgmental, whatever that inclination might be.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just thought it was interesting that the more
Speaker 3: lonely you are the more that exacerbates itself. You know,
Speaker 3: we talk a lot about upward and downwards virals on
Speaker 3: this show, and that's a definite downward spiral. Right. So
Speaker 3: I'm somewhat lonely, but I'm like, all right, I'll push
Speaker 3: myself to get out there.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 3: And I get out there, and I interpret everybody as negative,
Speaker 3: so I want to do it less. So now all
Speaker 3: of a sudden, I take another downward cycle towards like
Speaker 3: all right, I don't want to go back out and
Speaker 3: nobody likes me. Then I push myself. Finally I get
Speaker 3: up the moxie to do it another time in similar experience,
Speaker 3: until all of a sudden, you go, all right, that's it.
Speaker 3: I quit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that leads to so many people saying, oh,
Speaker 1: it's impossible to make friends as an adult. For example,
Speaker 1: how many times I've heard people say that, when in reality,
Speaker 1: I know so many adults who are yearning for deep friendships,
Speaker 1: but they're just not matching each other.
Speaker 3: Let's go right into that, because I think that's the
Speaker 3: heart of what When you and I met and we
Speaker 3: started talking, I was most interested in because I'm really
Speaker 3: interested in this idea of loneliness. I'm really interested in
Speaker 3: the idea of adult friendship, and I think it is
Speaker 3: harder to form friendships as an adult than say it
Speaker 3: was when you were at college or as a fourth grader.
Speaker 3: But to your point, it's certainly possible. So let's talk
Speaker 3: a little bit about what are some of the barriers
Speaker 3: that get in the way of making adult friendships, and
Speaker 3: then maybe we could go into some of the strategies
Speaker 3: for how to do it. And I know this is
Speaker 3: something you, in addition to writing about, you actually coach
Speaker 3: people on. So I'd love to hear some of you know,
Speaker 3: what you find first getting in the way, and then
Speaker 3: secondly some strategies we could use.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, I think the biggest thing is having the intention
Speaker 1: and sticking to it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think in one of your earlier podcasts you mentioned
Speaker 1: how no one gets fit by accident, or maybe it
Speaker 1: was one of your guests that you didn't just wake
Speaker 1: up one day and you're super fit, Like you're putting
Speaker 1: conscious intention and energy into it every day. And I
Speaker 1: think the same thing goes with making friends as an adult,
Speaker 1: to actually set that as a goal, and it's so
Speaker 1: interesting to me how many people find that really strange
Speaker 1: that someone would set that as a goal, because a
Speaker 1: lot of people can tell themselves it's just something I
Speaker 1: should know how to do. I should just have friends.
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have to put this much thought into it.
Speaker 1: There's something wrong with me because I'm trying to make friends.
Speaker 1: It feels embarrassing, almost like cringey.
Speaker 4: And it's the same as anything else to say.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm going to go to a new event
Speaker 1: two times this month, and I'm gonna have my awareness
Speaker 1: open for people I might want to be my friend.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're right. You hit on something really
Speaker 3: important there. When we're young, it's i mean not for everybody,
Speaker 3: but for a lot of people, it's easier to make
Speaker 3: friends because everybody is in a similar circumstance. We're all
Speaker 3: arriving at college together. Okay, we're by and large, we're
Speaker 3: all looking for friends. Yeah, so it seems to happen
Speaker 3: somewhat more naturally. When we get older and it doesn't happen,
Speaker 3: like you said, I often think we think there's something
Speaker 3: wrong with me, or that it shouldn't take this much work.
Speaker 3: So I think that's a big barrier. I think the
Speaker 3: second thing I was thinking about this recently, I was like,
Speaker 3: it seems like there's a lot of mismatch among adults.
Speaker 3: And what I mean by that is, again, when we
Speaker 3: go to college, we are all roughly eighteen years old,
Speaker 3: and I didn't go to college, but I'm I know
Speaker 3: people who did. I hear I thinking about it. I
Speaker 3: watched my son do it. I'm miss using it as
Speaker 3: an example, but we could say the same thing for
Speaker 3: fourth grade. Right you show up, you're all roughly the
Speaker 3: same age, your lives all look roughly the same as
Speaker 3: in like, your primary responsibility is going to school, hanging out.
Speaker 3: You know, not everybody, but most people. But when you're
Speaker 3: an adult, you can run into real mismatches. Like I
Speaker 3: go to an event and I meet somebody and that
Speaker 3: person is fifteen years older than me, and our life
Speaker 3: circumstances might look very different. They've got three kids and
Speaker 3: a full time job and I am underemployed and no kids. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's not that those circumstances are unbridgable. It just means
Speaker 3: that sometimes there isn't room in the same way for
Speaker 3: friendship for both those people. Right, Like, I've seen this
Speaker 3: happen a lot. People are like, I can't make friends
Speaker 3: people don't like me. I'm like, well, what it might
Speaker 3: be just that some of the people you're talking to
Speaker 3: just don't have open social calendars. So I think as
Speaker 3: we get as we get older, it gets harder to
Speaker 3: find people whose social needs meet ours, as well as
Speaker 3: the basic things that go into making what a friendship
Speaker 3: would be. So I do think it's harder as an adult,
Speaker 3: but it's certainly not impossible by any stretch of the imagination.
Speaker 4: It's not impossible.
Speaker 1: And I think also all those factors you just said
Speaker 1: of how many things need to be in alignment for
Speaker 1: you to become deeper friends with someone, to hold that
Speaker 1: in mind, and then when you find someone who actually
Speaker 1: has the space to deepen friendships, get excited about that person.
Speaker 4: I think people really hold themselves back from being earnest
Speaker 4: and friendship.
Speaker 1: And if it's okay, I would love to give an
Speaker 1: example of some friends I recently made, because I talk
Speaker 1: to people about this stuff all the time, and I
Speaker 1: know how magic it is when the things actually line up.
Speaker 4: So what happened was I had someone.
Speaker 1: He reached out to me on Instagram and said he
Speaker 1: was doing a storytelling show.
Speaker 4: I went to the storytelling show.
Speaker 1: And we talked a little bit, and he invited me
Speaker 1: to a party that him and two friends host every month.
Speaker 4: I go to the party.
Speaker 1: I love it. I love the energy of the people there.
Speaker 1: It's just this really warm, sweet group of people. I
Speaker 1: decide I'm going to go to this party every month.
Speaker 1: After the party, messaged both of the hosts and explicitly say,
Speaker 1: I had so much fun at your party. I think
Speaker 1: the energy of the people at parties matches the hosts.
Speaker 1: So I didn't really get to talk to you about
Speaker 1: that much, but I really enjoyed being in your space, which.
Speaker 4: Is vulnerable to say that.
Speaker 1: It's like kind of putting myself out there a little bit.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 4: And it's just a.
Speaker 1: Whole long process of I keep going to this party
Speaker 1: every month, start to become friends with the hosts, say
Speaker 1: just explicitly say I would like to hang out with you,
Speaker 1: start hanging out with them at their house, and start
Speaker 1: to kind of meet their friends. And we're all having
Speaker 1: dinner this Sunday, and I'm so earnest, like we just
Speaker 1: started a group chat, and I.
Speaker 4: Literally said, oh my god, I'm so excited we're in
Speaker 4: a group chat. Yeah, this is so sweet.
Speaker 1: Because most people don't want to seem too excited, like
Speaker 1: it's lame to want friends. But I think it's really
Speaker 1: brave to say to someone that you're excited about getting
Speaker 1: to know them more.
Speaker 3: I think so too. And you mentioned three sort of
Speaker 3: relationship strengthening tactics. The second one is we really have
Speaker 3: to practice positivity, the reward and enjoyment of each other.
Speaker 3: You know, we did an episode recently where Jinny interviewed
Speaker 3: Chris and I and Chris is the editor of the show,
Speaker 3: and him and I have been friends for I don't
Speaker 3: know a long time, twenty five, twenty eight, thirty, I
Speaker 3: don't know a lot of years, you know, yeah, wow,
Speaker 3: thirty two, thirty three years something like that. Best friends
Speaker 3: longer than I have been on this earth. Oh my goodness. Yes.
Speaker 3: But we talked a little bit about how, for whatever reason,
Speaker 3: when we first became friends, like we were so excited
Speaker 3: about being friends, and we talked about how excited we
Speaker 3: were to be friends, and we share, I mean, we've
Speaker 3: just always shared this positivity, which I think is part
Speaker 3: of what has contributed to making it such a close
Speaker 3: friendship for so long.
Speaker 1: It's so nice to know and it's really a skill
Speaker 1: I think to be able to do that with people.
Speaker 1: For me, when I meet someone who's able to also
Speaker 1: offer that vulnerability and say, you know, I had a
Speaker 1: lot of fun hanging out with you tonight, I would
Speaker 1: love to do that again. I know this is a
Speaker 1: person I really want to spend time with, because I've
Speaker 1: looked at friendships long enough to realize that's a really
Speaker 1: special quality in somebody.
Speaker 3: You talk a lot about vulnerability. That was kind of
Speaker 3: the first in these relationship strengthening tactics. You know, in
Speaker 3: order to feel seen, we have to practice vulnerability, the
Speaker 3: sharing of who we are. Is there a line for
Speaker 3: you where vulnerability crosses into neediness. We've all had an
Speaker 3: experience of somebody who is so desperate to be liked
Speaker 3: that they're hard to like. Yeah, and there's a difference
Speaker 3: between that and being vulnerable. And I'm just curious if
Speaker 3: you have any thoughts on what that difference is or
Speaker 3: how you navigate that.
Speaker 1: I can't give a one size fits all answer, but
Speaker 1: what I would invite people to do is check in
Speaker 1: with themselves about their intention behind sharing something and to say, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: am I sharing about some really traumatic childhood experience? Super
Speaker 1: early on with this person, so they feel bad for
Speaker 1: me me or there's going to be honest with yourself
Speaker 1: about what why are you sharing this thing? Because that's
Speaker 1: something I've definitely done before of kind of oversharing and
Speaker 1: then afterwards feeling embarrassed, I'm like, why did I say that?
Speaker 4: Why? Why did I say that to this person?
Speaker 1: And I think underneath it is just a really strong
Speaker 1: desire to connect.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 4: But at the same time, by sharing too much too soon,
Speaker 4: I'm kind of creating a power imbalance and I'm putting
Speaker 4: too much on the other person in a way that
Speaker 4: isn't fair.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it seems to me that if we think
Speaker 3: about this, it's probably good to know your tendency and
Speaker 3: to be aware of it and correct for it.
Speaker 4: So Yes.
Speaker 3: In the Spiritual Habits program, we talk about the middle way.
Speaker 3: It's one of the core ideas and principles and it
Speaker 3: basically says, look, any virtue, so to speak, is a
Speaker 3: middle point between two vices. Right. Courage is a middle
Speaker 3: point between b you know, rash and idiotic and a coward. Right. So,
Speaker 3: knowing which of those sides do I have a tendency
Speaker 3: to just sit back and be way too stoic when
Speaker 3: I meet new people and not share and not be
Speaker 3: vulnerable and not express that I'm excited to be friends
Speaker 3: with them. If that's my tendency, maybe I want to
Speaker 3: work on course correcting a little bit more towards the
Speaker 3: vulnerable side. If, on the other hand, I have a
Speaker 3: tendency of, you know, ten minutes after meeting somebody telling
Speaker 3: them about you know, my deep dark abuse secrets and
Speaker 3: saying I love you. I hope we spend every day
Speaker 3: the rest of our lives together, right, I might want
Speaker 3: to dial that tendency down in a bit. And so
Speaker 3: it's useful to know, like what is my tendency and
Speaker 3: to correct for it. But my experience with most adults
Speaker 3: is that our tendency is to be much less vulnerable,
Speaker 3: to not take a chance of deepening a conversation, of
Speaker 3: deepening a relationship. That's been my experience of you know,
Speaker 3: being an adult for thirty years now, almost as long
Speaker 3: as you've been on the planet. I suppose you're by
Speaker 3: to tell me again, I know from your writings you
Speaker 3: believe in cultivating the voices of elders. So I'm glad
Speaker 3: I can glad I can fill that role but my
Speaker 3: experience with most adults is we're more on the whole
Speaker 3: backside than we are on the vulnerable side totally.
Speaker 1: And I find there's a specific type of person who
Speaker 1: is craving this more open, vulnerable friendship and who.
Speaker 4: Also has the capacity to foster that.
Speaker 1: And I find that when we meet each other, we're
Speaker 1: so stoked. Yes, I heard someone recently say it's like
Speaker 1: we're in the same graduating class. We understand each other's
Speaker 1: kind of just way of being in the world. I
Speaker 1: loved that way of phrasing it so much.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And while I don't specifically coach people on creating
Speaker 3: friendship in the way that you do, that has been
Speaker 3: something that a number of my clients over the years
Speaker 3: have said, you know, they would like more of it.
Speaker 3: And we talk a lot about that basic idea of like,
Speaker 3: it's some juncture somebody has to take quote unquote the
Speaker 3: next step. In the same way in a dating situation,
Speaker 3: somebody's got to sort of say, all right, I'm gonna
Speaker 3: I'm gonna take a chance of seeing it. Where does
Speaker 3: this go if I take the next step? I think
Speaker 3: the same thing happens in friendship for sure, Where even
Speaker 3: if that next step is just to drop one level
Speaker 3: deeper in intimacy of conversation, to say, all right, we've
Speaker 3: been hanging out here on the surface, I'm gonna take
Speaker 3: the chance to go one level deeper. And I've shared
Speaker 3: this on the show before. I used to do that
Speaker 3: at work all the time. Like I mean, I just
Speaker 3: in the beginning, after I got sober at twenty four,
Speaker 3: I would just walk into a room and be like, hey,
Speaker 3: I'm a I'm a heroin addict. You know, I got
Speaker 3: sober six months ago. And you know, over time I
Speaker 3: was like, all right, we need to dial that down
Speaker 3: a little bit. But I always had that tendency of
Speaker 3: I would just go a little bit deeper than most
Speaker 3: people would. And I just found that over and over
Speaker 3: that paid dividends for me in that it made me
Speaker 3: much better at my work a because people trusted me
Speaker 3: more and be I just made more friends that way,
Speaker 3: more authentic friendships that way, by simply just being willing
Speaker 3: to be a little bit more open about what mattered.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I imagine the people who are really uncomfortable with
Speaker 1: you sharing those parts of yourself weren't comfortable with the
Speaker 1: parts of themselves that were struggling, and those aren't people
Speaker 1: that you want to be friends.
Speaker 3: With, That's right, Yeah, you're just like, well, I mean
Speaker 3: I never really found it to be that damaging. I
Speaker 3: mean maybe I had good enough self esteem that I
Speaker 3: was just sort of like, well, not everybody has to
Speaker 3: like me. Yeah, but yeah, I just I think that
Speaker 3: is such an important pieces to sort of just recognize, like,
Speaker 3: if I want this relationship, I've met somebody that seems
Speaker 3: like I like them, how do we take it to
Speaker 3: the next level? And I think your suggestions in the
Speaker 3: book of being more Vulnerable practicing positivity. And then the
Speaker 3: third one you talk about is consistency. Share a little
Speaker 3: bit more about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, especially if people live in a big city,
Speaker 1: it can be difficult to find the time to see
Speaker 1: someone consistently. This is a problem I will still run
Speaker 1: up against of having so many people I really genuinely
Speaker 1: love and want to spend time with, but then we
Speaker 1: just don't have the time and energy to coordinate our
Speaker 1: schedules and figure out the spot and do the whole thing,
Speaker 1: and so to have these kind of central meeting places.
Speaker 1: For example, it could be a dance party or a
Speaker 1: house party, or a meditation class that you go to
Speaker 1: or a yoga class, say Okay, I'm doing this thing
Speaker 1: every week or every month, and I know if you
Speaker 1: want to find me, I will be there, or if
Speaker 1: I want to find you, you'll probably be there. And
Speaker 1: it's a great way to just consistently see people be
Speaker 1: around the types of people who value the same things
Speaker 1: that you do, and also to start to deepen those
Speaker 1: relationships a little bit.
Speaker 3: One of the things that I've noticed we may be
Speaker 3: working with slightly different demographics potentially, as we've already sort
Speaker 3: of laid out the age difference between us, right, is
Speaker 3: that a lot of people that I work with say
Speaker 3: they want more community, but their lives are very, very
Speaker 3: full and they just tend to not make time time
Speaker 3: for it. That's something that I found very interesting in
Speaker 3: somebody who's trying to build a community, is that people say, yes,
Speaker 3: I want that, Yes I want that, but then they
Speaker 3: don't show up that often for it.
Speaker 4: Totally.
Speaker 3: A lot of the people that are sort of in
Speaker 3: our communities are going to be people who are deep
Speaker 3: in career and deep in family. So that's part of it.
Speaker 3: But do you see that also where people say I
Speaker 3: want friendships, I want community, but then they just simply
Speaker 3: don't put the effort of the time in. They just
Speaker 3: default to Netflix and hanging out totally.
Speaker 1: And I think it's especially that people don't want the
Speaker 1: uncomfortable parts that come with community, which is there's going
Speaker 1: to be conflicts, and there's going to be maybe some
Speaker 1: people you don't like, or you're going to be jealous
Speaker 1: of someone, or someone's going to mirror something in you
Speaker 1: that feels awkward or uncomfortable, and it's so easy to
Speaker 1: just be like, well, I guess I'm never going to
Speaker 1: hang out with these people again, or I guess I
Speaker 1: just won't communicate what's going on and then I feel
Speaker 1: disconnected from these people, and then I kind of just
Speaker 1: drift away, and I tell myself, oh, we just drifted apart,
Speaker 1: But really I haven't been communicating the truth of my heart,
Speaker 1: and I've been creating this distance myself.
Speaker 4: That was a lot.
Speaker 5: I had a lot of energy behind that, but it
Speaker 5: really feels very annoying to me because I think so
Speaker 5: many people share the struggle and just don't necessarily realize
Speaker 5: that they don't have a tolerance for having any sort
Speaker 5: of uncomfortable conversation.
Speaker 3: I am not a good group joiner. I think I'm
Speaker 3: decent at fostering individual relationships, but I've never been a
Speaker 3: group joiner. Particularly over the last five years, I've gotten
Speaker 3: clearer that a lot of it is what you were
Speaker 3: just saying. I'm looking for the perfect community. I'm looking
Speaker 3: for the community where I like everyone. So if I'm
Speaker 3: thinking of a Buddhist community or a spiritual community, I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 3: those couple people see my right, But I don't like
Speaker 3: those three people, so this isn't the place for me.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'm never coming here again.
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is what I would do over and over
Speaker 3: and over. And so I heard somebody say once and
Speaker 3: use words a little bit. I don't remember exactly which ones,
Speaker 3: but you alluded to it a little bit, which was
Speaker 3: that part of the point of community is to rub
Speaker 3: off our rough edges, that by interacting with these other people,
Speaker 3: it smooths us out and allows us to integrate more
Speaker 3: harmoniously into a group. And I thought once I heard that,
Speaker 3: I went, oh, that makes a lot of sense. The
Speaker 3: point here isn't that I like everybody and they're all
Speaker 3: my best friends. The point is I'm interacting with a
Speaker 3: variety of different people, and that there's benefit and beauty
Speaker 3: in that totally.
Speaker 1: There's benefit in me being around people who I wouldn't
Speaker 1: choose to be my friend, but the sheer nature of
Speaker 1: our differences is actually good for us just to be
Speaker 1: able to be in that.
Speaker 3: How do you work with people who are saying, yeah,
Speaker 3: I want community, but aren't putting the effort in to
Speaker 3: get it. It's very similar to somebody who says they
Speaker 3: want to be in shape, but they're not putting the
Speaker 3: effort to get into it. What sort of things have
Speaker 3: you found helps on blocked?
Speaker 1: I think the biggest thing is to start by asking
Speaker 1: questions around their fears. Say well, okay, there's clearly something
Speaker 1: that's preventing you from doing this, because if you were
Speaker 1: one hundred percent in, you wouldn't need anyone to help you,
Speaker 1: you would just be doing it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So a lot of times.
Speaker 1: I'll ask people what's been your experience with communities in
Speaker 1: the past, and oftentimes something really awful will come up, like, oh,
Speaker 1: I was part of this group and a girl in
Speaker 1: the group like cheated on my boyfriend. You don't try
Speaker 1: to say that my boyfriend cheated on me with this
Speaker 1: person in the group. There was a terrible experience, or
Speaker 1: I got bullied, or I didn't feel like I fit
Speaker 1: in there, anything along those lines were Unconsciously, they're thinking, well,
Speaker 1: I had a really bad experience in a community before,
Speaker 1: so why would I want to put myself through that again?
Speaker 1: But just don't take the time to reflect on it.
Speaker 1: Because I think, even in the world of personal development,
Speaker 1: where we reflect so much on all these elements of
Speaker 1: ourselves constantly and rarely think about our relationship to group
Speaker 1: and kind of in group, outgroup, what's my experience with community?
Speaker 1: Because culturally we don't care about it very much, So
Speaker 1: I would we think about it consciously?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Before we
Speaker 3: dive back into the conversation, let me ask you something.
Speaker 3: What's one thing that has been holding you back lately?
Speaker 3: You know that it's there, You've tried to push past it,
Speaker 3: but somehow it keeps getting in the way. You're not
Speaker 3: alone in this, and I've identified six major saboteurs of
Speaker 3: self control, things like autopilot behavior, self doubt, emotionalless gapism
Speaker 3: that quietly derail our best intentions. But here's the good news.
Speaker 3: You can outsmart them. And I've put together a free
Speaker 3: guide to help you spot these hidden obstacles and give
Speaker 3: you simple, actionable strategies that you can use to regain control.
Speaker 3: Download the free guide now at oneufeed dot net slash
Speaker 3: ebook and take the first step towards getting back on track.
Speaker 3: So if I am a person and I say, okay,
Speaker 3: I'm lonely, I want to change that, where do I start?
Speaker 3: You know, what are some things I can start doing?
Speaker 3: Let's just say I'm like, well, I'll give you a
Speaker 3: little bit more than that to go on. I work
Speaker 3: from home. I have three or four other people that
Speaker 3: you know, I interact within my company and I've known
Speaker 3: them for a while and they're fine, but we're not
Speaker 3: going to be great friends. I don't have a church
Speaker 3: that I want to go to. I'm lonely, and I'm
Speaker 3: not sure where to start. What are some initial steps
Speaker 3: I can take? And you can tailor this answer two ways.
Speaker 3: You can tailor it towards New York City, which is
Speaker 3: or a big city which just where you are, and
Speaker 3: you've created something called the joy List and lots of
Speaker 3: great things. But we could also talk about people who
Speaker 3: are in a place that's not quite so vibrant.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll go a little more general, okay, And I
Speaker 1: feel very excited about this question. The first question I
Speaker 1: always ask people is what kind of person do you
Speaker 1: want to be? Who do you want to be just
Speaker 1: in life? And also how do you want to exist
Speaker 1: within the place where you live? Could be New York City,
Speaker 1: could be somewhere else. Because you might not want to
Speaker 1: be a group person. You might say, you know, my
Speaker 1: ideal vision for my friendships and my community is maybe
Speaker 1: I'm kind of the hub for parties in my neighborhood.
Speaker 1: I have dinner parties, people come to me, I have
Speaker 1: an awesome backyard.
Speaker 4: I've got a core group of ten.
Speaker 1: Friends, and we host stuff on a month. That might
Speaker 1: be your vision for yourself, and that's awesome, like already
Speaker 1: having just a vision.
Speaker 4: For what you want.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and especially the qualities to say, I want to
Speaker 1: be around people who care about spirituality. I want to
Speaker 1: be the kind of person who's a generous host, I
Speaker 1: want to care for my body. Even say, okay, what
Speaker 1: types of people care about those things?
Speaker 4: Where can you meet those types of people?
Speaker 1: Because if you want to meet spiritual nerds who love
Speaker 1: working out, just go into the bar every Friday night,
Speaker 1: you're probably not going to meet those people, or if
Speaker 1: you do meet those people, you don't know that you're
Speaker 1: meeting those people because you're not in that context.
Speaker 3: Yep, let's run with this example. So let's say I
Speaker 3: live in a mid size community somewhere in the US,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, yeah, that is what I want. I
Speaker 3: just moved to this new town. I'd like to have
Speaker 3: a small group of friends. I do have a wonderful
Speaker 3: backyard and I've got a great patio. I love to
Speaker 3: cook dinner. I just love to have a group of
Speaker 3: friends that gets together once or twice a month in
Speaker 3: my backyard and we hang out and we have dinner
Speaker 3: and we just have some nice conversation. Like that would
Speaker 3: be amazing for me compared to where I'm at. Now,
Speaker 3: what do I do if someone came to you with
Speaker 3: that's what I want.
Speaker 4: So I have some friends.
Speaker 1: They are nomads and they're constantly traveling, but they're somehow
Speaker 1: also always hosting things themselves, even in countries where they
Speaker 1: don't really know people, and it's wild.
Speaker 4: And I ask them, how do you manage to pull
Speaker 4: this off?
Speaker 1: And they'll say, Okay, well, I know three people in
Speaker 1: this town and I tell them I want to host
Speaker 1: a dinner party.
Speaker 4: Can each of you invite three people?
Speaker 1: And you could even say, can you invite three people
Speaker 1: you know who might love spirituality if you want to
Speaker 1: get a little more specific, suddenly you have a ten
Speaker 1: person dinner party and then at the end of that say,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to do this again next month,
Speaker 1: same day next month.
Speaker 4: Would love if you guys could invite some people. I
Speaker 4: want to make this.
Speaker 1: A monthly thing and even having the next date and
Speaker 1: saying to people.
Speaker 4: I'd love for you to come again.
Speaker 1: I have two friends who do this every month and
Speaker 1: they have an incredibly vibrant community that comes to them.
Speaker 4: It's a pretty sweet deal.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So you take whoever you know and you use
Speaker 3: those people to so of network out from there totally.
Speaker 1: And even if you want it to be as vulnerable
Speaker 1: as saying I want to create a deeper community for
Speaker 1: myself here, it'd be so helpful if you guys can
Speaker 1: invite some folks Like that feel really good for me
Speaker 1: because I find when people know why you're asking them something,
Speaker 1: they're more likely to do it instead of you just
Speaker 1: being like, oh, yeah, invite some friends if you want, Like,
Speaker 1: there's a reason why you're asking them to do that.
Speaker 3: Right, You're taking that step of being a little bit
Speaker 3: vulnerable and asking for what you want.
Speaker 4: Because it's like, oh my god.
Speaker 1: Who doesn't want to say like, oh yeah, let me
Speaker 1: invite my three coolest friends so you can meet them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is great.
Speaker 3: So what if I'm not even in that place where
Speaker 3: I know much of anybody in that town? So, yeah,
Speaker 3: I moved here for my job. I'm a shy person.
Speaker 3: I just don't really know anyone. Where do I start there?
Speaker 1: So something that I recommend that is very simple but
Speaker 1: definitely not easy, is posting on social media if you
Speaker 1: have it, or sending an email and saying, hey, I
Speaker 1: just moved to wherever you live. I'm looking to meet
Speaker 1: people who are interested in blah blah blah.
Speaker 4: Who do you know?
Speaker 1: And this is something that is so simple, but folks
Speaker 1: love this kind of post on the internet because all
Speaker 1: they have to do is tag somebody and they get
Speaker 1: to feel great about themselves and it takes two seconds.
Speaker 4: And you might have three, five, ten people.
Speaker 1: Who all of a sudden you can reach out to
Speaker 1: and all you had to do is just let people
Speaker 1: know that you're looking for.
Speaker 3: That that's a great idea. What about starting to attend
Speaker 3: gatherings or volunteer events? All right, I'm willing to put
Speaker 3: myself out there a little bit, Yeah, in order to
Speaker 3: meet some new people. What does that look like? How
Speaker 3: do I go about finding things? What do I do
Speaker 3: when I get there? When I attend them? Again? If
Speaker 3: you're in New York City, you get on Jillian's joy list?
Speaker 4: Yeah, you do.
Speaker 3: I see that joy list every time. I'm like, God,
Speaker 3: I am jealous. That is so cool, so much great stuff.
Speaker 3: There lots of weird stuff going on in New York
Speaker 3: City totally. But what do I do if I don't
Speaker 3: have that? Where are some places I can two that
Speaker 3: are more broadly accessible ways to find gathering things that
Speaker 3: I'm interested in, etc.
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: So first of all, I would start on meetup and
Speaker 1: event right. On event right, there is a filter that
Speaker 1: you can look for. There's different event categories, and there's
Speaker 1: one called community. There's literally an event category called community.
Speaker 1: So you can say, Okay, what are the community events
Speaker 1: happening in my neighborhood this week? Or you could filter
Speaker 1: for fitness events, you could filter for religious events.
Speaker 4: You can even filter by a keyword.
Speaker 1: You could look for a women's circle, for example, or
Speaker 1: the word sober and just see what pops up, and
Speaker 1: to then commit to yourself to say, Okay, I'm going
Speaker 1: to go to this group at least twice, even if
Speaker 1: the first time I don't like it very much, or
Speaker 1: even if the first time I feel so nervous and
Speaker 1: I don't talk to anyone and I feel really weird,
Speaker 1: to go twice. And also you said the magic word before,
Speaker 1: which is volunteer. I think, honestly, this is the biggest
Speaker 1: for making friends in a new place, is to go
Speaker 1: to an event that has the kinds of people that
Speaker 1: you think you'd like. Like for example, in New York City,
Speaker 1: there's this big meditation event called medi Club, And I
Speaker 1: would volunteer at this event every month because the people
Speaker 1: who volunteer are more likely to want to make new friends,
Speaker 1: Like that's a big reason why people volunteer. But also
Speaker 1: it gives you direct access to the organizers of the event.
Speaker 1: And the organizers of events are usually community hubs who
Speaker 1: are more than happy to introduce you to whoever you want.
Speaker 3: So find events and if you can volunte tier at them.
Speaker 3: And I think the other thing you said, there's really
Speaker 3: important is to go at least twice, you know, if
Speaker 3: not more right. I've started recently doing this thing in
Speaker 3: Columbus I love doing so volunteers called Food Rescue, and
Speaker 3: it's basically there's an organization. They're all around the country,
Speaker 3: but they basically find food that's going to be thrown
Speaker 3: away somewhere, whether it's from a restaurant, a grocery store, whatever,
Speaker 3: and then they match that up with a place that
Speaker 3: needs it, and you basically go get it from one place,
Speaker 3: take it to another. But they've had this thing where
Speaker 3: they distribute these like thousands of boxes of produce every Friday,
Speaker 3: and so I was like, all right, I'm going to
Speaker 3: start going. And I am not actually very good at
Speaker 3: PLoP me in a new environment with a bunch of
Speaker 3: people I don't know. I don't do well in that environment.
Speaker 3: I am sort of shy, I'm sort of quiet, I'm
Speaker 3: sort of withdrawn. And it's interesting. It's not even that
Speaker 3: I notice that I'm shy and withdrawing. That's part of it.
Speaker 3: But what's interesting is my defense mechanisms kicking enough that
Speaker 3: I don't even feel like I want to get to
Speaker 3: know anybody in that environment. It's so interesting. It's like,
Speaker 3: if you ask me on Wednesday night, when I'm going
Speaker 3: to this thing on Friday, would you like to meet
Speaker 3: some new people there, I'm like, of course I would.
Speaker 3: That would be great. Put me there Friday. And all
Speaker 3: of a sudden, I'm like, my phone is really interesting
Speaker 3: to me right now.
Speaker 4: You're like, look at my shoes is not like really
Speaker 4: cool shoes.
Speaker 3: Man, Maybe I should just sit in the car and
Speaker 3: listen to this book on tape. It's so interesting to
Speaker 3: me the way that happens. My defense mechanisms rise up
Speaker 3: so quickly, I don't even see them, and then they're like,
Speaker 3: you don't really, who cares? You don't need to make
Speaker 3: any hands. So interesting. Anyway, I've been going to this
Speaker 3: thing on Fridays, and I mean, I think it took
Speaker 3: like five times before I started actually getting into conversation
Speaker 3: with people like I was there, we were friendly, Hey,
Speaker 3: how you doing good? Let's load these boxes. Like But
Speaker 3: after about the fifth time, something in me just shifted
Speaker 3: and I naturally started to just sort of emerge from
Speaker 3: my shell a little bit. And so I just know
Speaker 3: that about me that it takes me a little while.
Speaker 3: And so I know if I'm going to embed myself
Speaker 3: in something like that, I'm going to have to go
Speaker 3: ultiple times. But I imagine there are things that I
Speaker 3: could do if I wanted to accelerate that process. What
Speaker 3: might be some ways of getting into the conversational flow
Speaker 3: or meeting somebody, or again just going from sort of
Speaker 3: standing there to engaging a little bit more.
Speaker 1: Well, I think you are definitely not alone, or I
Speaker 1: know you're not alone in your experience of going to
Speaker 1: an event that's not facilitated and not being sure how.
Speaker 4: To go deeper with people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you don't know the norms of the space,
Speaker 1: you don't know what's acceptable there, you don't really know
Speaker 1: who these people are. It's like going to a giant
Speaker 1: happy hour that's a networking event where no one tells
Speaker 1: you what to do, and you're just like, yes, we're
Speaker 1: supposed to connect with each other.
Speaker 4: What the hell is this? Like this is.
Speaker 1: Awful, which is why And I'm such an extroverted person,
Speaker 1: but I hate things like that with a passion because
Speaker 1: it's such a draining environment for me to be in
Speaker 1: where there is no understanding of what you're supposed.
Speaker 4: To do in the space.
Speaker 1: You're kind of just thrown into this giant room of
Speaker 1: people talking over each other. So the biggest thing I
Speaker 1: would say is that if you can find an event
Speaker 1: that has facilitation, try that. So, for example, in New
Speaker 1: York City, and this is a very New York City thing,
Speaker 1: but there's this thing called Vulnerable af that this woman
Speaker 1: named Veronica runs. It's like a great name, and now
Speaker 1: she goes on tour and she does it and it's
Speaker 1: so great. But it's essentially just facilitated conversations where she's
Speaker 1: giving you prompts to say to strangers, and there's some
Speaker 1: group exercises, and there's no way you're not going to
Speaker 1: leave that event without having had a deeper conversation with someone.
Speaker 1: And the people who show up at that event are
Speaker 1: obviously looking to have deeper conversations with new people, so
Speaker 1: you're kind of already all in the same space.
Speaker 3: That's a great event. I think it's really good advice
Speaker 3: go to something that is sort of facilitated. It's one
Speaker 3: of the reasons why I've always been grateful to have
Speaker 3: been a member of AA. Yeah, I'm not real involved now,
Speaker 3: but I'm like, if I move to a new city, like,
Speaker 3: how easy is it I just start going to meeting.
Speaker 3: The meetian have conversations that are already structured. You get
Speaker 3: to hear a bunch of people talk and be like,
Speaker 3: I like what that guy had to say. I like
Speaker 3: what she had to say. Okay, those are kind of
Speaker 3: people I got my eye on. It makes it happen
Speaker 3: so much easier than what you described, which is like
Speaker 3: this food rescue situation where I show up. And again, now,
Speaker 3: this organization is not designed to help people meet each other.
Speaker 3: It's designed to get food to the places it needs
Speaker 3: to go. So if my food rescue friends are listening
Speaker 3: that none of this is criticism, right, Like, it's not
Speaker 3: what it's about. But you describe this sort of event
Speaker 3: that a lot of us show up to, we go,
Speaker 3: all right, I'm going to volunteer somewhere. And I think
Speaker 3: you make a really good point that where we're volunteering
Speaker 3: puts this in proximity to the people. But there are
Speaker 3: no real rules for interaction and there's no guided interaction.
Speaker 3: It kind of falls all on your own moxie. And again,
Speaker 3: what I've learned about me is that my moxie will
Speaker 3: grow over time. You know, there's just something that naturally
Speaker 3: thaws in me. If I'm around the same people enough times.
Speaker 3: But I love that idea of going to things that
Speaker 3: are facilitated as a way of that naturally happening. In
Speaker 3: our Spiritual Habits group program, I think we break the
Speaker 3: big group up into small groups that meet every week,
Speaker 3: and there's been a lot of really great deep relationships
Speaker 3: formed there, and I think to a large extent, it's
Speaker 3: what we train the facilitators. But secondly, it's there is
Speaker 3: a facilitated conversation about things that matter to you right away,
Speaker 3: so immediately there is a way to engage and make
Speaker 3: deeper connection because it is, as you said, a sort
Speaker 3: of facilitated event. Questions are asked, there's conversation, it happens.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this is why these question card games
Speaker 1: have suddenly blown up in popularity. Like everyone under the
Speaker 1: sun has a set of question cards that they're selling.
Speaker 3: I don't, because I think I need some make.
Speaker 4: Some question cards.
Speaker 1: Esther Parell just came out with a game based off
Speaker 1: of her podcast that's entirely questions that increase in vulnerability,
Speaker 1: and they're all questions about out storytelling so that you
Speaker 1: tell a story. You should have her on your podcast.
Speaker 1: She's promoting this.
Speaker 4: New game right now.
Speaker 1: But I've had a few friends say that at their
Speaker 1: dinner parties they've actually played her game. Interesting, And it's
Speaker 1: so great because I find that when we're around the
Speaker 1: same people a lot, we lose curiosity about them, like
Speaker 1: they kind of just become something that they're just there.
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, yeah, this is my friend I've known
Speaker 1: since I was five. What else is there for me
Speaker 1: to know about this person? And then you ask them
Speaker 1: a question like, oh, what's one of your favorite memories
Speaker 1: of being with your grandmom?
Speaker 4: Like when have you ever talked about that with them before?
Speaker 4: Probably never, never, And so you're going to get this
Speaker 4: whole new thing.
Speaker 3: I've been friends with Chris, as I said, for a
Speaker 3: really long time, I couldn't tell you the first thing
Speaker 3: about his grandparents.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I find grandparents is a really interesting thing because
Speaker 1: most adults that would never come up in conversation. But
Speaker 1: there's so much you can learn about someone's family and
Speaker 1: their culture from talking about that.
Speaker 3: With Chris, It's probably going to end up being a
Speaker 3: conversation about like drunk uncles or something than if if
Speaker 3: I know anything about that family. But yeah, same, my family.
Speaker 4: Too, not me that's a family culture for sure.
Speaker 3: Total family culture. I have an uncle who died from alcoholism,
Speaker 3: So I am just in it myself before we maybe
Speaker 3: change directions a little bit for the last few minutes.
Speaker 3: What else about making friendship creating community? What else should
Speaker 3: people know or what are some really important things from
Speaker 3: your coaching practice that you would share with people?
Speaker 1: I think the biggest thing is to really be kind
Speaker 1: to yourself in this process. Folks can be so brutal
Speaker 1: to themselves and so judgmental just being like, man, it's
Speaker 1: pathetic that I don't have friends, Like what kind of
Speaker 1: loser doesn't know how to make friends?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 4: These mean vicious.
Speaker 1: Things people will say to themselves when in reality, the
Speaker 1: average American hasn't made a new friend in five years.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: And seventy five percent of Americans are not satisfied with
Speaker 1: their friendships. So more likely than not, any person you
Speaker 1: meet is looking for new friends and is looking for
Speaker 1: deeper connection. And the people who have really rich friend
Speaker 1: groups are in the vast minority. Yes, and that's so
Speaker 1: important for people to keep in mind.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really good point. And you say early
Speaker 3: on in your book that loneliness is systematic it's not
Speaker 3: an individual problem. It's systematic.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: So to your point, if we don't have as rich
Speaker 3: a friendship or community life as we want, we are,
Speaker 3: like you said, we are far from alone. Matter of fact,
Speaker 3: we are in the majority, and the way our society
Speaker 3: is set up makes it harder and harder to do
Speaker 3: that and have that. And so it's not an individual failing.
Speaker 4: Totally, not an individual failing at all.
Speaker 3: I think the second thing there is kind of what
Speaker 3: I just did a little bit not to be like, oh,
Speaker 3: look how great I am. But if you'll know, hey,
Speaker 3: I'm great now. But when I talked about going to
Speaker 3: this food rescue thing right like fifteen years ago, I'd
Speaker 3: have been really hard on myself, like why are you
Speaker 3: not talking too, You're not meeting people? What's wrong with you?
Speaker 3: And now I'm just a lot more kind with myself
Speaker 3: and I go, I know my process. Yeah, it takes
Speaker 3: me a few times, so okay, yeah that's the way
Speaker 3: I am. So I know I just need to go
Speaker 3: a few more times I'll get there. Instead of being
Speaker 3: like walking in the first time and being like if
Speaker 3: I don't walk out of here with three friends, I've failed. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And I think that's how a lot of us orient
Speaker 3: towards this. I want more friends, I'm going to go
Speaker 3: to this event, I walk out. I don't have any friends.
Speaker 3: I failed, and so I'm not gonna do it again,
Speaker 3: because who wants to keep failing totally?
Speaker 1: And how many people have that mindset in all sorts
Speaker 1: of things like yes, a job interview or going on dates?
Speaker 1: Be like, well, this one was bad. Confirms what I
Speaker 1: already thought. So I'm just not going to do this again.
Speaker 3: Yep, that's a really good point. You had some funny
Speaker 3: things I saw on social recently. You know, I think
Speaker 3: you're dating, and you and your friends were riffing on
Speaker 3: reasons that somebody might not be getting back to you,
Speaker 3: the different reasons. And I was laughing because because the
Speaker 3: interpretation is they're not getting back to me because they
Speaker 3: don't like me, and you're like, well, yeah, they might
Speaker 3: be awful, tripping on LSD, they might be high af
Speaker 3: you know, they might. I thought it was funny, Yeah,
Speaker 3: just riffing or like, here's all the different reasons.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was talking to a female friend because we're both dating,
Speaker 1: and how funny it is that if like we're at
Speaker 1: a party and someone's being kind of weird with us,
Speaker 1: or they're not responding to our text. Our assumption is, well,
Speaker 1: they think I'm gross and bad and I'm just awful,
Speaker 1: and that's why they're not asking me out or whatever.
Speaker 4: And then we started.
Speaker 1: Talking about actual reasons when we've misinterpreted what was going on.
Speaker 1: And she told the funniest story of how this guy
Speaker 1: was sending her text that didn't make sense and she
Speaker 1: thought he was trying to avoid going on a date
Speaker 1: with her, when in reality he.
Speaker 4: Was just tripping super hard. You know, it's like the
Speaker 4: best story.
Speaker 1: That's a greeting, like keep your phone off.
Speaker 4: Might not be making Maybe they're drunk or maybe they're high.
Speaker 4: I don't know. Thank you for supporting my internet life.
Speaker 4: It feels good.
Speaker 3: You know, you're in the middle of the psychedelic renaissance
Speaker 3: when you have to be like, well, we're no longer
Speaker 3: talking about drunk dialing, we're talking about tripping texting. Don't
Speaker 3: do it. I want to shift directions for a second
Speaker 3: and talk about something that you have done. One program
Speaker 3: you did was called Allied, although you've done several others.
Speaker 3: Allied was a seven week training for white leaders to
Speaker 3: skillfully engage in conversations about race. And we've had a
Speaker 3: bunch of conversations around race on this show. We're primarily
Speaker 3: a white audience. I'd love to know some of what
Speaker 3: you've learned through those various trainings you've done. I know
Speaker 3: I'm asking you a huge topic with you know, like
Speaker 3: four minutes left in the conversation. So, but any things
Speaker 3: that really stood out to you that gave you like
Speaker 3: okay as a as a white person. If I want
Speaker 3: to be a better ally, here are some of the
Speaker 3: things I'm going to do.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I can quickly say. So.
Speaker 1: Allied was led by this teacher named Harry Pickens, who
Speaker 1: is a black man who wanted to work with white leaders.
Speaker 1: And the biggest thing I got from that was how
Speaker 1: can we train our nervous systems to be okay in
Speaker 1: conversations where we are not comfortable, especially with people who.
Speaker 4: Do not agree with us.
Speaker 1: And a case study we were looking at a lot
Speaker 1: is Darryl Davis, who is a black man who famously
Speaker 1: befriended members of the klu Klux Plan and then actually
Speaker 1: got them to leave because he was in relationship with them.
Speaker 1: And the process took a very long time and of course,
Speaker 1: that's not an approach that a lot of people agree with,
Speaker 1: but it's one that is really interesting in that that's
Speaker 1: the ultimate example of being comfortable across.
Speaker 4: Lines of difference and being with people who might not
Speaker 4: like you at all.
Speaker 1: And so I have really tried, and of course as
Speaker 1: I'm saying this, I'm judging myself for not doing better,
Speaker 1: but to be with folks who are white conservatives, for example,
Speaker 1: to talk about their beliefs, or to be comfortable, because
Speaker 1: I can really fall into people pleasing to be comfortable
Speaker 1: enough to challenge people and just to say just having
Speaker 1: these sentence stems in my back pocket, like oh why
Speaker 1: do you think that? Or oh has that been your experience,
Speaker 1: and to just give people the space to kind of
Speaker 1: talk out this thing they might think of without questioning it.
Speaker 4: So that's one thing. And the second thing I'll.
Speaker 1: Quickly say is that I did this training called Bridges
Speaker 1: and Boundaries, which was three days primarily white folks, but
Speaker 1: there are also some black folks in the room, and
Speaker 1: it was a very intense, super in your face training
Speaker 1: about looking at your own racism. And really the main
Speaker 1: point that I got from that was that white people
Speaker 1: are racist and we do think that we're better than
Speaker 1: other races, and we have to acknowledge that in ourselves
Speaker 1: in order to move forwards and to just and I
Speaker 1: feel hot and saying that out loud, but to be like,
Speaker 1: I think I'm better, I have to tell myself that
Speaker 1: I've been so programmed my entire life, and our country's
Speaker 1: been programmed to think that I'm better. And people of
Speaker 1: color know that we think that, and if we can't
Speaker 1: say that to ourselves, we can't do any work.
Speaker 4: I mean, that weekend kicked me in the face. It
Speaker 4: was not fun.
Speaker 3: I bet you know. It makes me think my initial
Speaker 3: like instantly that uncomfortableness raises a defense in me where
Speaker 3: I want to go. But people of other raceists think
Speaker 3: they're better then that there's an in group out group thing, right.
Speaker 3: But the difference, of course, is that our race is
Speaker 3: controlling everything and is in charge of everything.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: We interviewed Ibermex Kendy on the show, and one of
Speaker 3: the things that he talked about that I found so
Speaker 3: valuable was to move away from saying I am or
Speaker 3: I am not a racist, or you are or you
Speaker 3: are not a racist, and to say I have some
Speaker 3: racist thoughts I have some racist beliefs. I did a
Speaker 3: racist thing. And I found that a really interesting switch
Speaker 3: because it's a little bit like the difference between shame
Speaker 3: I am bad, I am a racist, to I do
Speaker 3: think racist things. Oh, I have behaviors, actions, etc. That
Speaker 3: are that way, and thusly I can work on changing them.
Speaker 3: For me, that was a way of sort of being
Speaker 3: able to walk into the ground you're talking about and go, yes,
Speaker 3: I do I have racist thoughts. I think things that
Speaker 3: are racist, I have done things that are racist thoughts
Speaker 3: that run through my head. Was really helpful because then
Speaker 3: I was able to sort of again step out of
Speaker 3: the shame of I'm this awful person to I have
Speaker 3: these behaviors, right, which is sort of the difference between
Speaker 3: I think healthy guilt and shame shame as I'm bad.
Speaker 3: Healthy guilt is I'm doing things that don't match my values.
Speaker 3: I want to change.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think this training that was so impactful
Speaker 1: of having it be a mixed race group was to realize, Okay,
Speaker 1: it's so uncomfortable for me to look at these racist
Speaker 1: parts of myself, and if I don't, I'm going to
Speaker 1: keep unintentionally hurting these other people in the room. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so which one am I going to choose?
Speaker 4: Because we're being forced to choose, like look at ourselves
Speaker 4: and say, Okay, if I don't examine this.
Speaker 1: Stuff, which I have the full power to never examine
Speaker 1: and never look at and never think about because it's
Speaker 1: deeply uncomfortable, I will, for the rest of my life
Speaker 1: hurt people more. And of course I'm still going to
Speaker 1: do racist stuff for the rest of my life because
Speaker 1: it's just I'm a human, but I'll probably do it
Speaker 1: a little bit more, or at least I'll be able
Speaker 1: to apologize.
Speaker 4: More skillfully in the future if I look at.
Speaker 3: This stuff that's really powerful and really difficult work. Before
Speaker 3: we wrap up, I want you to think about this.
Speaker 3: Have you ever ended the day feeling like your choices
Speaker 3: didn't quite match the person you wanted to be. Maybe
Speaker 3: it was autopilot mode or self doubt that made it
Speaker 3: harder to stick to your goals. And that's exactly why
Speaker 3: I created The Six Saboteurs of Self Control. It's a
Speaker 3: free guide to help you recognize the hidden patterns that
Speaker 3: hold you back and give you simple, effective strategies to
Speaker 3: break through them. If you're ready to take back control
Speaker 3: and start making lasting changes. Download your copy now at
Speaker 3: oneufeed dot net slash ebook. Let's make those shifts happen
Speaker 3: starting today one you feed dot net slash ebook. We're
Speaker 3: at the end of our time. You and I are
Speaker 3: going to go into the post show conversation, and I
Speaker 3: actually want to explore something you said a few minutes
Speaker 3: ago in more detail. You talked about challenging people or
Speaker 3: having open conversation with people who think different things than us,
Speaker 3: particularly maybe around a topic like race. As we head
Speaker 3: into the holidays, many people are going about to get
Speaker 3: some great opportunities for this, and so let's talk about
Speaker 3: some skills because I do. There's a difference between turn
Speaker 3: my Thanksgiving dinner table into a nuclear war versus actually
Speaker 3: engage in dialogue with people who think differently than me
Speaker 3: in a hope of increasing understanding. So we'll talk about
Speaker 3: that in the post show conversation. Listeners, if you'd like
Speaker 3: access to the post show conversation, you can go to
Speaker 3: one you feed dot net slash Join you get this
Speaker 3: post show conversation, You'll get ad free episodes. You'll get
Speaker 3: a special episode I do every week called Teaching Song
Speaker 3: and a poem where I share a song I love,
Speaker 3: a poem I love, as well as a teaching and
Speaker 3: lots of other great benefits of being a member when
Speaker 3: you feed dot net slash join Jillian. Thank you so
Speaker 3: much for coming on. I have really really enjoyed this
Speaker 3: and it's been a pleasure to get to talk with
Speaker 3: you for everyone.
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. I feel super energized.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for listening to the show. If
Speaker 3: you found this conversation helpful, inspiring, or thought provoking, I'd
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