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Speaker 1: As media.

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Speaker 2: All right, everybody, welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a

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Speaker 2: podcast where we tell you everything you don't know about

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Speaker 2: the very worst people in all of history and folks

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Speaker 2: on a normal week, basically every other week of the year,

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Speaker 2: I read a story about a terrible person that I

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Speaker 2: have researched and written and spent a lot of time

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Speaker 2: on to one of our guests, who is generally a

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Speaker 2: comedian or an academic or somebody who we thought would

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Speaker 2: be fun to horrify for roughly two to three hours.

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Speaker 2: This week, we're doing a little bit of a different thing.

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Speaker 2: For one thing, my producer Sophie is not here as

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Speaker 2: she is currently engaged in moving and that's a whole

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Speaker 2: nightmarish hell. And the other thing that's different, the biggest

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Speaker 2: thing that's different, is that this is going to be

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Speaker 2: a reverse Behind the Bastards, where a guest is going

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Speaker 2: to read me a story that they have written based

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Speaker 2: on research they've done from a piece of shit in history.

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Speaker 2: And I'd like to welcome a guest, well, the guest

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Speaker 2: host to this episode, someone that you will have seen

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Speaker 2: on It could happen here if you're a regular listener

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Speaker 2: of that podcast. Padrick or Rourke, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming on and for doing

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Speaker 2: the hard work of making an episode for me this week.

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Speaker 3: No problem, Thanks for having me and Jesus. Yeah, it

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Speaker 3: took like just finding the time to write these things.

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Speaker 3: Like I think we discussed this idea first in like

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Speaker 3: February March, but I only just got it finished.

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Speaker 2: Yeahct we were connected through our mutual friend Jake Canrahan

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Speaker 2: and you came on the show to talk about the

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Speaker 2: Irish far right on It Could Happen Here, which was

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Speaker 2: a great episode, And yeah, you pitched around that same

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Speaker 2: time this and it's obviously like it's my whole job,

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Speaker 2: so I do I can I find the time to

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Speaker 2: do it every week. I have to when it's like

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Speaker 2: a side thing you're doing. It takes a long time

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Speaker 2: to write ten thousand words about a shitty person.

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Speaker 3: I still have to turn up to work for my

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Speaker 3: government paymasters. But yeah, there you go.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well who are we learning about this week?

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Speaker 3: While Roberts, as you know, the original plan for this

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Speaker 3: episode was cover Andrew Windsor Or as he's now known,

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Speaker 3: the alleged rapist formerly known as Prince Yes. But seeing

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Speaker 3: as how women who annoyed the British monarchy occasionally die

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Speaker 3: in suspicious traffic accidents. We would have been putting Sophie's

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Speaker 3: life in danger and that is why she has gone

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Speaker 3: into hiding.

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Speaker 2: That's right, yes, to protect her from the British Royal family.

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Speaker 3: And as as we all know, there's nothing the British

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Speaker 3: Royal family and its armed forces love doing more than

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Speaker 3: murdering irishmen. So my next was on the line too,

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Speaker 3: and I thought, I thought it would be safer if

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Speaker 3: we cover the dead bastard instead of Saxborg. But we will.

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Speaker 3: You'll get around to Prince Andrew someday anyway, Robert.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he is on the list, especially with all this

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Speaker 2: juicy new Epstein stuff that's late.

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Speaker 3: I totally believe him. He's he's innocent of everything. So, Robert,

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Speaker 3: I know you've heard of this guy because you mentioned

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Speaker 3: him before on the previous podcast, but I was wondering,

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Speaker 3: how much do you know or can you recall about

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Speaker 3: William Joyce.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're talking about Lord of Haha, right, that's the name.

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Speaker 2: He's probably better. It was certainly better known to Americans

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Speaker 2: by I read about him for the first time and

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Speaker 2: like one of the First World War two history books

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Speaker 2: I read when I was in may Pa. I couldn't

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Speaker 2: have been much for than fifth or sixth grade, and

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Speaker 2: it was it was. There was a chapter that talked

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Speaker 2: about him, and it talked about there was kind of

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Speaker 2: a woman in Japan who was sort of the Japanese

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Speaker 2: equivalent of these like radio like pro fascist radio stars

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Speaker 2: who would tell Allied soldiers basically, you're all gonna get

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Speaker 2: killed over here, you know, disobey your orders whatnot, like

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Speaker 2: it's hopeless to try to fight us, that sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: So that's that's kind of my it's a very surface

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Speaker 2: level knowledge of the guy. I'm aware that he was

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Speaker 2: like the British equivalent of and I'm spacing on the

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Speaker 2: name of the I think of the woman based in

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Speaker 2: Tokyo who was doing the same thing over in the

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Speaker 2: Pacific Theater. But yeah, that's that's what I know about him.

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Speaker 3: That's that's the guy. Where this guy has fascinating backstory,

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Speaker 3: terrible personal life, and I think he's great a bastard material,

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Speaker 3: so luck we'll jump into it. William Joyce was born

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Speaker 3: while fuck Roberts were off to a bad start here.

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Speaker 3: Because no one knows for certain when or where this asshole.

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Speaker 2: I love those ones.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we do know who his parents were though. William

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Speaker 3: Joyce was the eldest son of Michael Joyce from Mayo

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Speaker 3: in the west of Ireland, and an English woman named

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Speaker 3: Gertrude brook who was better known as Queenie. Michael Joyce,

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Speaker 3: unlike most Irish immigrants to the USA in the late

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Speaker 3: eighteen hundreds, was not a starving peasant. He came from

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Speaker 3: a wealthy farming family, and he had gone to America

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Speaker 3: to seek his fortune rather than evade starvation. In the

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Speaker 3: eighteen eighties, he established a successful construction company in Brooklyn,

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Speaker 3: and he had enough money to make frequent trips back

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Speaker 3: home to Ireland.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, that is a very rare situation. Yeah, but

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Speaker 2: who moves from Ireland to the US in the eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 3: He's doing well. So on one such trip to Galway,

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Speaker 3: he meets and falls in love with Gertrude or Queenie.

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Speaker 3: So true love blossomed. But there were two small problems,

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Speaker 3: racism and religious bigotry, because back then the Irish were

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Speaker 3: still considered primeval savages by the English establishment. James Frud,

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Speaker 3: professor of history at Oxford declared that the Irish were

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Speaker 3: quote more like squalid apes than human beings.

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Speaker 2: Was good British.

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Speaker 3: I lived there for a while. I could kind of

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Speaker 3: do the upper class, one in the working class, but

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Speaker 3: nothing in between. Anyway. Another English academic, John Bodeaux, held

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Speaker 3: that the racial inferiority of the Irish made us genetically

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Speaker 3: inclined to criminality, which was evident by studying the skulls

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Speaker 3: and phrenology of Irish.

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Speaker 2: That sounds scientific.

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Speaker 3: Who had quote a knee grow appearance?

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, yeah, oh wow, oh yeah.

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Speaker 3: There's still institutions in Ireland where they of the heads

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Speaker 3: of like Gaelic speakers, the skulls, and we've given back

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Speaker 3: like the Pacific Islanders, but they're kind of like, no,

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Speaker 3: we were holding on to the Irish ones. So some

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Speaker 3: of them have only just come back. But anyway, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Further complicating matters for these StarCraft lovers, part from the

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Speaker 3: different nationalities was the fact that Michael Joyce was a

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Speaker 3: Catholic was his fiance was Protestant. Now, such mixed marriages

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Speaker 3: were controversial at the time, though nobody in Ireland today,

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Speaker 3: while in Southern Ireland at least gives a shit about it.

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Speaker 3: So Michael and Gertrude's engagement was so controversial that her

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Speaker 3: parents refused to attend their nineteen oh five New York wedding. Instead,

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Speaker 3: Queene's parents sent her brother Gilbert, a lawyer, to the

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Speaker 3: ceremony to quote see that the thing was done right now.

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Speaker 3: There have been many biographies of Joyce, but the best

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Speaker 3: is probably by Colin Holmes, an English academic, who suggest

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Speaker 3: that Joyce was born out of wedlock two years before

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Speaker 3: the marriage, and that is the reason why her family

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Speaker 3: only sent one person to the wedding, who was a lawyer.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Yeaow, that's such a bitchy move, just sending your

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Speaker 2: lawyer to there.

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Speaker 3: And he's a family member as well, so they don't

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Speaker 3: even have to pay him anyway. Yeah. So, throughout his life,

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Speaker 3: Joyce repeatedly claimed to be born in different years and

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Speaker 3: in different places.

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Speaker 2: Probably classic bastard. Yeah yeah.

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Speaker 3: So. William Joyce was born sometime between nineteen oh three

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Speaker 3: and nineteen oh six in either America or Ireland. As

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Speaker 3: a boy, he was baptized in his father's religion of Catholicism.

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Speaker 3: William Joyce's mother wanted to name him William Brook Joyce

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Speaker 3: following in the Protestant Irish tradition of co joining both

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Speaker 3: parents surnames, but Joyce's Catholic father forbid it because, like

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Speaker 3: his son, he was a gigantic asshole. In nineteen Michael

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Speaker 3: Joyce used his American wealth to buy a pub in

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Speaker 3: his home place of Mayo, but the business failed after

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Speaker 3: Michael Joyce killed one of his best customers. One of

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Speaker 3: his regulars got really drunk one night and Michael, instead

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Speaker 3: of looking after him, simply threw him out of the

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Speaker 3: pub when he ran out of money. This man's body

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Speaker 3: was found lying against the pub wall the next morning. Us. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: he had died of hypothermia and whilst sheltering against the

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Speaker 3: gable end of the building trying to get shelter from

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Speaker 3: the wind and the rain. This resulted in all the

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Speaker 3: locals successfully boycotting the bar and the Joyces were forced

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Speaker 3: to sell it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like a really good barkeeper here today who knows

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Speaker 3: their locals will like wait till the end of their

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Speaker 3: shift and will actually drive them home. You know. Yeah, so,

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Speaker 3: and I've seen that happen. But anyway, so the family

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Speaker 3: moved to Galway City, where Michael Joyce again invests in

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Speaker 3: real estate. Robert, if you ever been to Galway, Yes.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I love it. It's I mean, I think it's

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Speaker 2: probably the prettiest city I've been to in Ireland. It's

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Speaker 2: it's my second favorite after I really like Dublin. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: I love Galway.

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Speaker 3: Galway is a great place. It's an incredible party town

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Speaker 3: and Steve Earle wrote a great song about it called

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Speaker 3: Galway Girl. Yeah, but don't listeners confuse it with the

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Speaker 3: Ed Sheeran song of the same name, which.

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Speaker 2: Is shipped no, no, don't stel.

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Speaker 3: Galway has long been famous as one of the last

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Speaker 3: bastions of indigenous gayla CoRIS culture, and that is exactly

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Speaker 3: why young William Joyce hates Galway, because he hates everything Irish.

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Speaker 3: He wants nothing more throughout his whole life than to

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Speaker 3: be British, which, as Madonna discovered, is very complicated if

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Speaker 3: you're actually an American. William Joyce was the eldest of

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Speaker 3: four children. He was six years older than his brother Quentin,

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Speaker 3: who was the next eldest sibling, so unsurprisingly, for many years,

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Speaker 3: William was spoiled as a mama's boy. Queenie always felt

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Speaker 3: out of place in Irish American enclaves in Brooklyn and

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Speaker 3: later in Ireland, and while her husband Michael was working Queen,

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Speaker 3: he was left alone with baby William and doated on him,

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Speaker 3: telling him you are the sugar in my tea. Without you,

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Speaker 3: there is no British empire and wow, you will be

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Speaker 3: a great man someday. So Robert, I've sent you a

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Speaker 3: pick if you can find it there. Of if we

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Speaker 3: have a picture of Joyce at school? Mm hm, and

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Speaker 3: how what what's the vibe off this kid? If you

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Speaker 3: can bring it up?

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Speaker 2: He looks like a little shit, like I'm gonna be

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Speaker 2: honest with you, Like he's got his he's got his

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Speaker 2: arms crossed in a way children seldom do, and he like.

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Speaker 3: The only two other people in the group photoho have

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Speaker 3: their arms crossed are the teacher and the teacher's kid

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Speaker 3: who's sitting at each other.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, he looks very unpleasant. He looks like he's

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Speaker 2: judging you, Like he looks like like I want to

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Speaker 2: say to him, like you're not better than me, you

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Speaker 2: little shit, You're just a kid, Like get what the

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Speaker 2: what the fuck are you looking at me for?

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Speaker 1: That?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: That way?

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Speaker 3: Well, I remember, without him, there will be no British Empire.

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Speaker 3: So there you go.

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Speaker 2: Well, so that's another reason to fight this kid.

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Speaker 3: From an early age, Joyce was noted for being intelligent

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Speaker 3: and precocious. He was a keen chess player and boxer

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Speaker 3: who showed a talent for languages. But he was also

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Speaker 3: a loner, so he came up with a plan to

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Speaker 3: make friends. His dad rented the property to the cops

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Speaker 3: as a police station, and William snuck in one day,

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Speaker 3: stole a gun and brought it to school.

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Speaker 2: Just a normal that'll make you friends, Yep, that's that'll

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Speaker 2: make you friends.

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Speaker 3: So it's totally fine. He doesn't shoot anybody. All the

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Speaker 3: other boys in school think the gun is super cool,

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Speaker 3: but they still think that Joyce, who's brought it in,

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Speaker 3: is a massive dork. So Joyce's parents had enrolled him

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Speaker 3: in a Catholic school and his may S Prize listeners.

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Speaker 3: But the Catholic Church in Ireland in the early nineteen

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Speaker 3: hundreds was one hundred percent supportive of British rule. Since

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Speaker 3: the time of the American Revolution, Catholic bishops had condemned

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Speaker 3: every single Irish rebellion against the British, so in return

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Speaker 3: for their loyalty, the British government allowed the Catholic Church

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Speaker 3: to run almost all of the elementary schools in Ireland.

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Speaker 3: This not only well, yeah, absolutely, this not only allowed

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Speaker 3: Catholic priests to ensure the spiritual indoctrination and brainwashing of

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Speaker 3: Irish children. It also give Catholic priests political power and

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Speaker 3: social status required to ensure a nationwide conveyor belt of

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Speaker 3: children who they could rape and abuse without legal consequence.

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Speaker 3: In the early twentieth century, the British government and the

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Speaker 3: Catholic Church implemented a form of cultural genocide to try

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Speaker 3: and destroy any sense of Irish identity their pupils had,

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Speaker 3: and to replace this with a sense of britishness. Children

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Speaker 3: in Catholic run Irish primary schools had to recite a

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Speaker 3: poeme each morning which ran, I thank the goodness and

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Speaker 3: the grace which on my birth had smiled and made me,

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Speaker 3: in these Christian days, a happy English child. Each year,

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Speaker 3: all elementary schools in Ireland celebrated Empire Day on the

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Speaker 3: twenty fourth of May, when pupils were taught that the

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Speaker 3: British Empire is one big, happy family of nations. Like

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Speaker 3: your own families. There is a father and a mother

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Speaker 3: and children in Britain, the parents are the English and

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Speaker 3: the children are the Scots, Irish and Welsh. If the Scots,

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Speaker 3: Irish or Welsh ever went their own way, then God

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Speaker 3: will be very disappointed.

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Speaker 2: Now, let's see, that doesn't even make sense with families,

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Speaker 2: because the whole point of a family is that eventually

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Speaker 2: the children are adults and go their own way and

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Speaker 2: get married on their own right, the whole point of

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Speaker 2: a family, since the kids are always underneath the parents' thumbs.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's just that's not even how family really works.

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Speaker 2: Back then, the.

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Speaker 3: Analogy also fails because families ineverably end up rowing with

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Speaker 3: each other quite a.

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Speaker 2: Lot, right constantly. Yes, the worst fights are better family members. Also,

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Speaker 2: only one family member inherits at this point in time,

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Speaker 2: I don't.

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Speaker 3: Know which is the parents, which is not how it's

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Speaker 3: supposed to work anyway. Children were then taught the slogan

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Speaker 3: of empire day, which was one king, one flag, one fleet,

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Speaker 3: one empire.

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Speaker 2: Remind you of anything, Robert, Yeah, one people, one nation,

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Speaker 2: one volk.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm volcan, I'm right, I'm fure that's it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, one fewer sorry.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So the Catholic priests running these schools when they

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Speaker 3: weren't busy abusing Irish children. Love nothing more than to

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Speaker 3: beat the shit out of Irish kids who actually had

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Speaker 3: the audacity to speak Gaelic, their native language. So this

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Speaker 3: is similar, Robert what happened to First Nations kids in Canada,

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Speaker 3: but it wasn't as extreme here because even though the

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Speaker 3: English establishment considered us racially inferior, at least we were white.

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Speaker 3: So anyway, young William Joyce just fucking loves all the

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Speaker 3: Diish imperialism that he is getting in school, and he

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Speaker 3: loves school and education until one day he asked the

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Speaker 3: priest if he's Protestant mother would go to heaven when

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Speaker 3: she died, And of course the priest says, no, your

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Speaker 3: mother is going straight to Hell or she will burn

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Speaker 3: in a tonal torment forever with all the other Protestants,

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Speaker 3: because that's just how the Catholic Church rules.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's it's fun. I had a similar I

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Speaker 2: grew up Episcopalian, and I had a similar talk with

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Speaker 2: a youth group leader about that, where I was asking

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Speaker 2: him about like different figure like Gandhian stuff, and he

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, no, they're all everyone else is going

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Speaker 2: to hell. Like everyone who was not the specific kind

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Speaker 2: of Christian that we are is going straight to Hell forever.

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Speaker 3: At least the Mormons are nice enough to rebaptize the dead.

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Speaker 2: Didn't try, right, you baptize in Frank decades after her

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Speaker 2: death like a normal person.

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Speaker 3: Other things we could criticize the Mormons on, but at

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Speaker 3: least they think they're well intentioned anyway.

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Speaker 2: It is when you think about it, it's nicer than

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Speaker 2: some of the other things.

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Speaker 3: So Joyce gets super pissed when the priest who's teaching

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Speaker 3: him throws eternal shade and his Protestant month. So up

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00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:11,760
Speaker 3: to this point he had been a modeled student, but

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Speaker 3: from then on he says fuck homework and he starts

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Speaker 3: spending all his spare time on politics. And it was

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Speaker 3: an interesting time in Irish politics. So at this time

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Speaker 3: all of Ireland north and South was still part of

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Speaker 3: the UK, but after centuries of colonialism, ordinary Irish people

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Speaker 3: were getting tired of being repeatedly fucked over and exploited

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Speaker 3: by an English political lead.

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Speaker 2: So after the outbreak that would get on your nerves.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, after the outbreak of World War One, a broad

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Speaker 3: popular front of Irish republicans whose politics are very different

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Speaker 3: to those of American republicans. These Irish republicans start planning

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Speaker 3: a rebellion against the English King, who, of course was

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Speaker 3: then distracted from Irish affairs temporarily by throwing millions of

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Speaker 3: British soldiers at German machine guns in the hope of

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Speaker 3: defeating his cousin and Bastard POD's alumni Kaiser Wilheim the

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Speaker 3: second Ah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so I did.

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Speaker 3: When he comes up, who was Harney for his mother's hands?

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Speaker 3: A few research.

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Speaker 2: Spreact, Yeah, weird hand fetish.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah. So anyway, the rebellion is known here as

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Speaker 3: the nineteen sixteen Rising. It's largely confined to Dublin, but Galway,

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Speaker 3: where William Joyce lived, was one of the few places

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Speaker 3: outside the capital where there was fighting. We don't need

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Speaker 3: to go into all the details on the rebellion here. Basically,

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Speaker 3: the Irish rebels wanted to break free of Britain establish

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Speaker 3: an independent republic. Launched the rebellion in April nineteen sixteen,

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Speaker 3: fought the British army, managed to hold out for a

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Speaker 3: week before being defeated, and Margaret Kiljoy did a whole

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Speaker 3: series on this rebellion for cool people who did cool stuff,

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00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 3: so if you want to learn more about it, you

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Speaker 3: can start there. Yeah. So, anyway, this rebellion freaks Young

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Speaker 3: William Joyce out, and the following year, when the Bolshevik

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Speaker 3: Revolution happens in Russia, he goes way down the conspiracy

341
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Speaker 3: rabbit hole and he's convinced that both the Russian Revolution

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00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,080
Speaker 3: and the rebellion in Ireland are part of the secret

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Speaker 3: global Irish German Jewish Bolshevik plot to destroy the British Empire.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that makes sense.

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00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, So Joyce hits on a new plan to make

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Speaker 3: himself popular at school. Instead of bringing another gun to

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Speaker 3: class that didn't work too well the first time, he

348
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,920
Speaker 3: decides to tell his classmates about all his favorite new

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Speaker 3: conspiracy theories.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. One of his schoolmates, Owen Keenan recalled quote he

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00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,720
Speaker 3: was a morose and lonely little fellow. For all his brightness,

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Speaker 3: there was something missing in young Willie. He would give

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Speaker 3: him promptu speeches in the playground warning us about the

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Speaker 3: growing dangers of Bolshevism. But Robert, do you know who

356
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,040
Speaker 3: won't make him prompt you speeches in the playground warning

357
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Speaker 3: their playmates about Bolshevism.

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Speaker 2: Some of our sponsors. Might I'm not going to categorically

359
00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:58,800
Speaker 2: say not, but you know some of them are fine

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Speaker 2: with it.

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Speaker 3: I was going to say the Irish Republican Army, yes,

362
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,560
Speaker 3: that's oh well, yes, no, yeah, yeah, the good old IRA,

363
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:10,400
Speaker 3: because in nineteen seventeen, the IRA, despite being almost entirely Catholic,

364
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:15,399
Speaker 3: were actually very supportive of Soviet Russia. Robert, remember those

365
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:19,119
Speaker 3: sixteen pounds of diamonds Zarien and her daughters had sewed

366
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,600
Speaker 3: into their bodices and they accidentally turned into bulletproof vests

367
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,280
Speaker 3: during the execution in the basement in Ika Trinenberg. Well,

368
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,000
Speaker 3: when the Bolsheviks got the diamonds off the corpses, some

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00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,080
Speaker 3: of them ended up hidden in the chimney of a

370
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 3: senior IRA leader in Dublin named Harry Boland, after a

371
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:40,160
Speaker 3: senior financial a secret financial deal between the Soviet Union

372
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Speaker 3: and the IRA. But that's a long story. We don't

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Speaker 3: have time to quint to hear.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: What we do have time for is ads.

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Speaker 2: That's right, coming back. I gotta say, you have to

377
00:19:57,960 --> 00:19:59,800
Speaker 2: imagine that guy has to within at least one a

378
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,679
Speaker 2: have had people over gotten a little bit too drunk

379
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:04,879
Speaker 2: and taken the diamonds out right. You gotta be like,

380
00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,080
Speaker 2: you gotta see this shit, man, You gotta come on,

381
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,520
Speaker 2: come on, come back, have another shot. I gotta show

382
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:10,879
Speaker 2: you some fucking nats.

383
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Speaker 3: He ended up being shot in nineteen twenty two, so

384
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Speaker 3: he didn't have long enough to enjoy the diamonds, but

385
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,919
Speaker 3: his family had them for years, and then in like

386
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 3: the nineteen fifties, the Irish Prime Minister aim and devil

387
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 3: Era like quietly give them back to the lasts. Just

388
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,240
Speaker 3: both countries were like, maybe we shouldn't mention this.

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Speaker 2: These probably shouldn't be here. Yeah.

390
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:40,119
Speaker 3: So anyway, after World War One, there is general election

391
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,239
Speaker 3: in the UK, which Ireland was then still officially part of,

392
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,760
Speaker 3: and shin fein the Irish Republican Rebel Party won a

393
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Speaker 3: majority of seventy three of the one hundred and five

394
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Speaker 3: Irish seats in the British Parliament. These seventy three Irish

395
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,440
Speaker 3: Republican members of Parliament decided to set up their own

396
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Speaker 3: assembly in Dublin and it declared independence in Britain. The British,

397
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,960
Speaker 3: of course, immediately declared this democratically elected Irish government illegal

398
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,200
Speaker 3: and Britain's colonial police force in Ireland the Royal Irish

399
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 3: Constabulary or IC were mobilized to suppress Irish democracy. The

400
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,680
Speaker 3: IRA in turn responded with a grilla campaign against them,

401
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,160
Speaker 3: resulting in the Irish War of Independence, which lasted from

402
00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:28,919
Speaker 3: nineteen nineteen to nineteen twenty one. So, in early nineteen twenty,

403
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:34,399
Speaker 3: conspiracy nerd William Joyce witnessed the British shooting dead and

404
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,880
Speaker 3: IRA volunteer as part of this conflict in Galway, and

405
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 3: it thrilled him, and Joyce immediately volunteered to assist the

406
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Speaker 3: British forces in any way he could now. Traditionally, British

407
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 3: rule in Ireland had been maintained not by the British Army,

408
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 3: but by this Irish police force or British police force

409
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,159
Speaker 3: in Ireland, the Royal Irish Constabulary or IC. It was

410
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 3: largely staffed by irishmen recruited their fellow natives in nine

411
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 3: The RIC basically becomes the model for colonial policing across

412
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,000
Speaker 3: the British Empire, from India to Palestine to Kenya, and

413
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 3: irishmen in the RIC were generally happy to keep oppressing

414
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 3: their fellow Irishmen until the IRA began shooting them dead

415
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 3: in large numbers. Thus, prompting hundreds of irishmen to resign

416
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 3: from the force now disposes a problem for the British government.

417
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,360
Speaker 3: If they sent the British Army in as the main

418
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,959
Speaker 3: force fighting the Republicans, they will be admitting that the

419
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 3: IRA were a real army and that there was a

420
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 3: real war happening. The British line, however, was that the

421
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 3: IRA were just a small criminal gang having regular shootouts

422
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 3: with the Irish cops. So in response, the British government

423
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 3: invented the Black and Tan now.

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Speaker 2: Rather than yes.

425
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,159
Speaker 3: This will surprise some of your listeners, but the phrase

426
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 3: black and Tan can refer to several different things. So

427
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,200
Speaker 3: listeners in la will know they have a local uniform

428
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 3: club for gay men called the Black and Tan Society.

429
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:10,400
Speaker 3: Different thing, different thing. Most Americans will know a cocktail

430
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 3: of the same name they drink along with disgusting green

431
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 3: beer on St. Patrick's Ley, But in Ireland the phrase

432
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 3: has a different meaning. If you ever walk into a

433
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 3: real Irish bar in Ireland and order a black and Tan,

434
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,400
Speaker 3: or an Irish carban for that matter, you are very likely, yeah,

435
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 3: I have seen this happen. You are very likely to

436
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 3: get this shit kicked out of you.

437
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, that good. Not a good move.

438
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is because the drink the cocktail. The Black

439
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 3: and Tan is named after the largely English mercenaries recruited

440
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 3: into the Riic during the War of Independence, who gained

441
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 3: a fairly well deserved reputation for committing war crimes against

442
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,680
Speaker 3: the Irish, including torture, murder, arson and rape. So, anyway,

443
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,160
Speaker 3: back to our bastard William Joyce. He sees the.

444
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 2: Tango song about fighting them. Yeah.

445
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 3: Check out Steve Coogan's Alan Partridge that song. It's brilliant.

446
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:02,239
Speaker 2: Yeah it is.

447
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 3: So. Anyway, back to our bastard William Joyce. He sees

448
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 3: the Tans coming to Ireland in nineteen twenty and he

449
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,959
Speaker 3: is cheering them on. Now, some pro British loyalists in Ireland,

450
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,919
Speaker 3: like Joyce, do join the Black and Tans, but remember

451
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,880
Speaker 3: this kid is something around fifteen years old at the time,

452
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,360
Speaker 3: so he's too young to officially become a cop. So instead,

453
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 3: Joyce ingratiates himself with members of the ri Ic and

454
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 3: the Black and Tans by volunteering to run errands for them,

455
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 3: buying their cigarettes and shops at a time when Irish

456
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 3: shopkeepers refused to serve British troops, that kind of thing,

457
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 3: real low level stuff. Joyce also passed on whatever scraps

458
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 3: of information about IRA activity that he could gather from

459
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 3: loose talk around the town, and he would give this

460
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,360
Speaker 3: to his British pals. He also volunteered as an identifier

461
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 3: for RIIC patrols traveling in their motor convoys to point

462
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 3: out the homes of IRA members sympathizers which were then

463
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 3: raid It. They needed him because remember a lot of

464
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 3: the new RIC recruits were english Men who didn't have

465
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 3: a clue where they were going or who they were

466
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,719
Speaker 3: looking for. Some members of the RIC saw Joyce as

467
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 3: their teenage mascot. Others found Joyce a nuisance, and one

468
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 3: Irish ri C constable later recalled quote, he was one

469
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 3: of our greatest embarrassments. His trouble was fanatical patriotism England

470
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 3: and a burning wish to fight the rebels. He often

471
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 3: tried to smuggle himself into our larryes. We laughed at him,

472
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 3: but if he was killed or wounded, it would have

473
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 3: caused our control a lot of trouble. According to Douglas, Yeah,

474
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 3: according to Douglas, Yeah, it's just it's a war zone.

475
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 3: I think I'll jump on his humvy and take a

476
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 3: ride around and point out the houses of the insurgents.

477
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 3: Let's see how that one.

478
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, anybody off? No?

479
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 3: According to Douglas V. Duff, an English Black and Tan

480
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 3: from Dorchester, Joyce eventually became such an an annoyance when

481
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 3: they found him stowed away one day on their patrol boat.

482
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:05,959
Speaker 3: They threw him into the middle of Galway Harbor and

483
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 3: he had to swim back to shore.

484
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 2: Joyce had a warm harbor.

485
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, not harbor. It's mostly filled with bottles of buckfast

486
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 3: now if you know Gowaya anyway, Joyce overcame this setback

487
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 3: to ingratiate himself with an even worse group of British

488
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 3: paramilitary police, the Auxiliary Division of the Royal art Constabulary,

489
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 3: more commonly known here in Ireland as the Auxy's now.

490
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 3: The Auxy's were similar to the Tans or the Black

491
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 3: and Tans, but instead of being recruited from ordinary low

492
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 3: ranking ex British soldiers, they were only recruited from ex officers,

493
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 3: so they're a bit like an elite kind of special

494
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 3: forces unit. The Auxy's were a much more effective fighting force.

495
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 3: They were much more extreme in their methods, more rootless,

496
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 3: more violent and determined than the Tans. Quote one of

497
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 3: the IRA's most famous leaders of that era at Tom

498
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,719
Speaker 3: Barry quote, there were good and bad men amongst the Tans,

499
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 3: but the Auxys were bastards to a.

500
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 2: Man short and sweet.

501
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, not a man who mixed these words. When D

502
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 3: Company of the Auxys arrived in Galway, Joyce immediately volunteered

503
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 3: to help them with the same kind of low level

504
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 3: intelligence work that he had done for the Tans. D

505
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 3: Company were one of the worst Auxy units. In a

506
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 3: notorious incident in November nineteen twenty, they shot dead Eileen Quinn,

507
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 3: twenty four year old woman who was seven months pregnant.

508
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 3: Quinn had been sitting on a wall outside her home

509
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 3: breastfeeding her nine month old child when the Auxys drove

510
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 3: up to the house and shot her dead at point

511
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 3: blank range without warning. D Company specialized in abducting IRA

512
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 3: members and sympathizers and torturing and murdering them before mutilating

513
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 3: their bodies and burying them in bogs. Same month that

514
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 3: they shot Oiling Quinn dead, the company captured brothers Harry

515
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 3: and Patrick Lochnan, who were both members of the Ira,

516
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 3: The Lochnan brothers were tied to the back of a

517
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 3: British Army lorry and forced to run behind it as

518
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 3: it traveled at speed. When they inevitably fell exhausted, the

519
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 3: van continued to drive, dragging the men along the road

520
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 3: surface until they were dead. Yeah. The Auxis then carved

521
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 3: their unit insignia into the flesh of Patrick Lochnan's chest

522
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 3: and cut off two of Harry's fingers to keep as souvenirs.

523
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 3: Eventually they set fire to the body and dumped them

524
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 3: in a leg So very reminiscent of kind of stuff

525
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 3: that was done to the Via Kong by US Viet Koan.

526
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 2: I mean, it's reminiscent of stuff you've seen in the

527
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 2: American In Texas, where I come from, there was a

528
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 2: very famous case of a young gay man who was

529
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,719
Speaker 2: killed by being dragged behind the car. Stuff like that.

530
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 2: And you hear, I mean like the I'm thinking of

531
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 2: the barcoot in Ukraine, which you know would do these

532
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 2: They wasn't so much dragging people to death, but it

533
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 2: was like throwing them in naked into freezing snowbanks activists

534
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 2: and killing them that way. Like I think there's a

535
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 2: lot of things that makes me think.

536
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,479
Speaker 3: Of, Yeah, it's incredible what people are capable of. But anyway,

537
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 3: you and I, for some reason find a fascinating to

538
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 3: read about this. Yeah. D Company also abducted and murdered

539
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 3: Michael Tolan, a physically disabled IRA intelligence officer, who they

540
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 3: castrated and shot dead before burying his body in a bog.

541
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 3: D company's best known victim was one of the few

542
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 3: Catholic priests who actually supported the IRA, father Michael Griffin.

543
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 3: Father Griffin was abducted from his home, shot dead, and

544
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 3: buried in the bog west of Galway City. Now, later

545
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 3: rumors would claim, and you'll still find this online, that

546
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 3: William Joyce, as a local young boy, had played a

547
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 3: role ignuring Father Griffin out of his home. But there

548
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 3: is no reliable historical evidence to support this. But these

549
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 3: murders will give you the listener an idea of the

550
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 3: kind of people Joyce is now working for. Right, so,

551
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 3: as the war drags on into nineteen twenty one, Joyce

552
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 3: came to the attention of Captain William Keating, head of

553
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 3: British Army Intelligence in Galway. Now, Keating probably knew Joyce personally,

554
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 3: as both of his sons attended the same school as Joyce.

555
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 3: Keating decided to recruit Joyce as a courier. So by

556
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 3: now he's not a British soldier. He's not an official

557
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 3: member of the British Army, but he is on their

558
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 3: payroll and working for the army was seen as being

559
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 3: more respectable than doing errands for a paramilitary police force.

560
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 3: So the Irish War of Independence ends on the eleventh

561
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 3: of July nineteen twenty one. About two three hundred people

562
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 3: were killed in the conflict. Now that may not seem

563
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 3: like much, but remember Ireland is a very small country

564
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 3: with a small population, So to put that in perspective

565
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 3: and think of what you know about the North of Ireland,

566
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 3: Northern Ireland and how vicious conflict was there. The Irish

567
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 3: War of Independence saw two three hundred people killed in

568
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 3: just three years, compared to three thoy seven hundred people

569
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 3: dying in the troubles in the North over thirty years.

570
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 3: So it's a much more condensed version of.

571
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 2: The conflict, higher intensity conflict.

572
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, whilst the ceasefire was holding, the ira were still

573
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 3: gathering intelligence. Joyce was on their radar before this. Now

574
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 3: they had known all along that he was a British loyalist,

575
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 3: but he was by far wasn't the only British loyalist

576
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 3: who was around, but they didn't know how involved he

577
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 3: was in assisting the British forces until they intercepted a

578
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 3: British cipher code being sent to him in the mail.

579
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 3: At this point, the IRA sanctioned Joyce's execution as an

580
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 3: enemy agent, but they could not kill him because it

581
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 3: would have been a breach of the ceasefire and it

582
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 3: would have interfered with the political negotiations which were then ongoing.

583
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 3: Joyce discovered the IRA were onto him, but for the

584
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 3: moment they couldn't lay a finger on him, and he

585
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 3: really revels in this. He decides to rub the IRA's

586
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 3: faces in it. So he starts openly associating with the

587
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 3: British forces in Galway, who were kind of like he's,

588
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 3: you know, protection unit. There's going to be no more

589
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 3: disguises or cloak and dagger shit. He's just letting it

590
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 3: all hang out in the open. So one day Michael Stains,

591
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 3: who's a senior IRA leader and member of the rebel

592
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 3: Irish government, was walking through Galway when he encountered William

593
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 3: Joyce quote. William Joyce was quite a young fellow, about

594
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 3: sixteen years of age. I saw him with some members

595
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 3: of the Riic Auxiliary Division and as I went by,

596
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 3: he passed some jeering remarks and actually spat at me.

597
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 3: There was an IRA volunteer with me who wanted to

598
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 3: shoot Joyce there and then, so he's got some balls,

599
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 3: this kid.

600
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

601
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 3: Stains was one of the liaison officers between the IRA

602
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 3: and Theish military during the ceasefire, and he was unsurprisingly

603
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 3: super pissed about this, and he marched straight into the

604
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 3: office of British Divisional Commissioner Creuse, who was commanding that unit.

605
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 3: We talked about the company of the Ausis and Stains

606
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 3: let him know in known certain terms that the IRA

607
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 3: were ont Joyce and that he was fucked if the

608
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 3: ceasefire did not hold. Joyce knew the IRA could not

609
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 3: do shit to him for as long as peace talks

610
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 3: were ongoing, and he basically thinks that it's all going

611
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 3: to work out find for him. But in December of

612
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 3: nineteen twenty one, a section of the rebel Irish government

613
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 3: reached a peace deal with the British. Now this is complex,

614
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 3: but all you need to know is that the treaty

615
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 3: they agreed on in late nineteen twenty one early nineteen

616
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 3: twenty two divided Ireland into the two parts it's in

617
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 3: now the North of Ireland or Northern Ireland to give

618
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 3: it its official name, which would stay part of the

619
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 3: UK was the southern part of Ireland was going to

620
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 3: get partial independence on the same basis that Canada had

621
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 3: within the British Empire at the time, something called dominion

622
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 3: status right. So, under this peace deal, which of course

623
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 3: didn't deliver a lasting peace in Ireland, that's another story,

624
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 3: the British pulled all their troops out of the South

625
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 3: of Ireland and moved them either back to Britain or

626
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 3: up to the north. The first to withdraw were the

627
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 3: units that William Joyce had been most closely associated with

628
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,760
Speaker 3: the in the ri C. So now Joyce is in trouble.

629
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 3: His ri Ic bodyguards are leaving Galway and the IRA

630
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,919
Speaker 3: will soon be in total control of the city once

631
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 3: the British Army finishes its evacuation. And at this point

632
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 3: William Joyce is forced to stop spitting at the leaders

633
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 3: of the IRA and he goes into hiding nat So

634
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 3: Cocky area now Joyce. Just when it looks like Joyce

635
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 3: is fucked, Fate steps in and saves them. And this,

636
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 3: I think is one of the interesting things about him.

637
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 3: This is going to happen a few times in his life,

638
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 3: either a person or circumstances changed the last second to

639
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 3: his benefit. And in nineteen twenty one, his savior was

640
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 3: Captain Keating, who had recruited Joyce as a courier for

641
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 3: the British Army. Keating arranged for Joyce to be enlisted

642
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 3: in the Worcester Regiment and transferred to England, thus saving

643
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 3: him from the otherwise certain fate of being assassinated by

644
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,800
Speaker 3: the IRA for being a British intelligence agent. But Robert,

645
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 3: do you know who won't assassinate British intelligence agents?

646
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I would hope our podcast sponsors would be

647
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 2: capable of doing that. You know, that's certainly something we

648
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 2: ask each of them. Could you kill James Bond? Theoretically,

649
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: like if you tried to interfere with your aberrations and

650
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 2: they all say yes, But could they be lying to me?

651
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 3: It's possible, possibly because I would have thought would a

652
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 3: British intelligence agent lie to you? Never? I would have

653
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 3: thought that unlike the IRA. They all support King Sausage

654
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 3: Fingers himself, Charles the Third of England and his weird

655
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 3: brother Andrew, who definitely has not done anything untoward in

656
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 3: Jeffrey Epstein's company.

657
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 2: No, no, he's just stopping the Prince for no reason

658
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 2: and we're back.

659
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 3: So I wonder how Coolson Media's lawyers feel about that

660
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 3: last ad pivot.

661
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 2: Anyway, I feel like it's pretty safe these days.

662
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 3: I don't enjoy the First Amendment rights and legal terms

663
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 3: you have, so I to be more careful in Ireland anyway,

664
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 3: although I suspect Prince Andrew leaving the jurisdiction of Britain

665
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 3: anytime soon.

666
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: If we have one right in the United States, it's

667
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 2: talking about the British royal family. So kind of foundational.

668
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, So in early nineteen twenty two, young William Joyce

669
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,720
Speaker 3: is safe from the IRA. He's living in the British

670
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 3: Army barracks in England. But by now the British of

671
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 3: course have no real use for him. He had a

672
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 3: purpose when he was in Ireland, but now that the

673
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 3: British have done a deal with a faction of the

674
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 3: Irish rebels, their focus is on their other imperialist projects

675
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 3: in Egypt, in India and Palestine, or Joyce would of

676
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 3: course have been useless, so he was probably underage. He

677
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 3: was definitely physically unfit, and he had never fired a

678
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 3: gun in combat. So within a few months he gets

679
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 3: kicked out of the British Army. Now William Joyce enrolled

680
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 3: in Birkbeck College in London, where he joined the college

681
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 3: branch of the British Conservative and Unionist Party, also known

682
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 3: as the Tory Party, and he was hoping that he

683
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 3: would find his political soulmates there. Instead, he was disappointed

684
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,760
Speaker 3: that they weren't supportive enough of the Irish loyalist cause,

685
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 3: and he was disappointed because they didn't express the same

686
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 3: interest in anti Semitic conspiracy theories about Irish affairs that

687
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 3: he did. Political disappointments aside, he managed to graduate with

688
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 3: a degree in English. He toyed with the idea of

689
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 3: studying for a masters in history, but never put the

690
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,439
Speaker 3: required effort into securing a place a university. When asked

691
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 3: about this failure later in life, he fabricated the excuse

692
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 3: that quote some thieving Jew had stolen his research. Next,

693
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 3: he applied for a job in the British government's Foreign Office,

694
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 3: and when this application was rejected, he again used the

695
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 3: excuse that the Jews were responsible.

696
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,720
Speaker 2: Sure, no, yeah, keep keep going back to that, well, buddy, yeah.

697
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 3: Joyce eventually got a job as a high school teacher,

698
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 3: a teaching English in England, a country where everybody already

699
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 3: spoke the language. I'm reminded of Ralph Wigham and the Simpsons.

700
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 3: Me fail English, that's impossible. At the time that he

701
00:38:55,600 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 3: was working as a teacher, he's conservative anti Semitic politics

702
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 3: were becoming even more extreme, and he kept ranting on

703
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 3: about how his supposed Jewish communist cabal were responsible for

704
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 3: the creation of the IRA and for all his misfortunes

705
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 3: in Ireland. But again, this was in England, where despite

706
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 3: ruling US, very few of the people, except for the

707
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 3: most hardcore conservatives, really knew or cared anything about Ireland,

708
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 3: so he was largely ignored. But things were soon to

709
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 3: change for young Willy. In late nineteen twenty two, an

710
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 3: Italian asshole named Mussolini pu fascism on the world stage,

711
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 3: and in early nineteen twenty three, these British fanboys formed

712
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,760
Speaker 3: England's first fascist group. On the sixth of May nineteen

713
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:44,240
Speaker 3: twenty three, Miss Rotha Linton Orman, the daughter of British

714
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 3: Army War hero Major Charles Orman, decided to found the

715
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 3: British Fascisty. She had previously helped found the Girl Scouts

716
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 3: and had been a suffragette and an ambulance driver during

717
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 3: World War One. She placed she placed a series of

718
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 3: six adverts in the Duke of Northumberland's newspaper The Patriot,

719
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 3: which was infamous for peddling conspiracy theories and xenophobia. I've

720
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 3: sent you a picture of her, Robert. It's well worth

721
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 3: looking up just to get an idea of her vibe

722
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:15,800
Speaker 3: and her energy.

723
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean, she definitely looks like she never

724
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 2: looks like someone who would both be a suffragette and

725
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 2: also a fascist actist like she she's put together in

726
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:28,399
Speaker 2: that way.

727
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's worth googling other pictures of her and

728
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 3: finding out more about a fascinating person. But anyway, British

729
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 3: Fascisty campaigns to protect Britain from communism, socialism, Irish republicanism, anarchism,

730
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 3: trade unionism, atheism and free love. So they probably.

731
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 2: Weren't all the every one of them probably weren't much

732
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 2: fun at parties, No, Linton Norman claimed the moral, spiritual

733
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 2: and fundamental objects of British and Italian fascists are identical.

734
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 3: Those joining the British Fascisty were required to swear an

735
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 3: oath to uphold His Majesty Gracious King George, his heirs

736
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 3: and successes, and to render every service in the struggle

737
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 3: against all treacherous revolutionary movements now working for the destruction

738
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 3: of the monarchy and the British Empire. In the early years,

739
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 3: there was a significant crossover membership between the British Fascisty

740
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 3: and the British Conservative Party. The group's primary activity was

741
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 3: to act as bodyguards for Conservative politicians and protect Conservative

742
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 3: meetings from interference by left wing hitlers. Joyce joined the

743
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 3: British Fascisty in London shortly after their formation, and he

744
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 3: was soon promoted to commander of I Squad. On the

745
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 3: twenty fourth of October nineteen twenty four, Joyce led the

746
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 3: members of his unit to constituency of Lambeth North, where

747
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 3: they have been tasked with acting as an honor guard

748
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 3: for an election rally for the local Conservative candidate. The

749
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 3: meeting was disrupted by a group of anti fascist protesters,

750
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 3: one of whom attacked Joyce slashing his face from the

751
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 3: right corner of his mouth. So he's right here with

752
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 3: a straight racing.

753
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 2: See, I can already see the problem, which is that

754
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 2: you know great instincts, but if you just slash someone

755
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 2: in the face, you're gonna wind up making him look cool.

756
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,319
Speaker 2: Like if you just give someone a facial scar, you're

757
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 2: gonna wind up making them look cooler.

758
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 3: And you have sent you an image there or people

759
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 3: can you've probably seen it before.

760
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 2: Robert's great scar. Yeah, yeah, no, that's the scar they

761
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 2: all want to have.

762
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 3: Because this is the thing that like the SS and

763
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 3: German military guys love fencing without masks, and they want

764
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 3: to descramma the scar, whereas Joyces dueling scar.

765
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 2: He you couldn't buy a better scar than that if

766
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:58,840
Speaker 2: you went to a fancy dueling college.

767
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like a fun James Bond film scar like it.

768
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, it's like a fake scar.

769
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 3: Anyway. Joyce is left with a prominent facial scar for

770
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 3: the rest of his life, and he claimed that a

771
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 3: male Jewish communist had attacked him. However, his first wife, Hazel,

772
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 3: later told his biographer Colin Holmes, it wasn't a Jewish

773
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 3: communist who disfigured him. He was knifed by an irishwoman. Now,

774
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 3: unfortunately we don't know who this hero Irish woman was.

775
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:32,720
Speaker 3: I think it was probably Jake Hanrahan's great grandmother. Once again,

776
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 3: Joyce was blaming Jews for all his problems, but the

777
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 3: anti fascist protesters had mostly been Irish Republican sympathizers, who,

778
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,280
Speaker 3: according to press reports, interrupted the meeting by singing Irish

779
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 3: rebel songs and heckling before attempting to storm the platform

780
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 3: and seize the British flag. The protesters appear to have

781
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 3: been aware of Joyce's presence and his previous work as

782
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 3: a spy for the British in Ireland. A reporter for

783
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 3: the Lambeth Free Press described the scene. The tumult was

784
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 3: terrific and the speaker could not be hurt. A few

785
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 3: young men began to sing come back to Aaron, A

786
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 3: couple of men apparently it came to blows and the

787
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,439
Speaker 3: crowd searched forward. The excitement was tremendous, and from out

788
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 3: of the crowd that suddenly emerged a young Stuart with

789
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 3: blood streaming from a nasty gash in the cheek. Mister

790
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 3: William Joyce off Allison Grove Dallich was led to the

791
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 3: rear and was supposedly taken to Lambeth Infirmary for treatment.

792
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 3: It is stated that he was slashed with a razor,

793
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,800
Speaker 3: so Joyce's assailant was most likely a member of Kameno

794
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 3: Man who were the I Ray's female counterpart, and whoever

795
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 3: she was, she was not the only irishwoman in the

796
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 3: twenties to try and assassinate a Fascist leader, leaving them

797
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 3: with a permanent scar. The other was Violet Gibson, who

798
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,399
Speaker 3: in April nineteen twenty six attempted to assassinate Moussolini by

799
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 3: shooting him in the head at a public rally. At

800
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 3: the last microsecond, Massolini turned his head and survived, minus

801
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,359
Speaker 3: a small part to the bridge of his nose, which

802
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 3: he succeeded in shooting off was Sealini appeared in public

803
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 3: wearing a prominent bandage on his face for several weeks afterwards.

804
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 3: History does not repeat itself, but it does tend to

805
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:11,959
Speaker 3: rhyme a lot.

806
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:16,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's boy. Probably the less set about that, the better.

807
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 3: Time as a flat circle Robert Anyway, William Joyce was

808
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 3: hospitalized for several weeks recovering from his facial wound, but

809
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 3: he was troubled by the possibility that he might miss

810
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 3: the Armistice Day commemorations on the eleventh of November, which

811
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 3: commemorated the British war dead of World War One. From

812
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 3: the nineteen twenties, this event had always been hugely popular

813
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 3: with the British far right, and today this tradition is

814
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 3: still maintained by the neo Nazi group the National Front,

815
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 3: which still holds a march to the Cenotaph in London

816
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 3: every Remembrance Sunday. On the eleventh November nineteen twenty four,

817
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 3: Joyce snuckout of hospital without being medically discharged so that

818
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,040
Speaker 3: he could attend the ceremony, but he was still so

819
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 3: weak from his injuries that the IRA had inflicted on

820
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 3: him that he collapsed. He was given first aid by

821
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 3: a fellow Fascist at the ceremony named Hazel Barr, who

822
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:15,399
Speaker 3: was to become the future Missus William Joyce. Joyce got

823
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 3: a job teaching at a school in Chelsea in London.

824
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,879
Speaker 3: The pair married in nineteen twenty seven, and she soon

825
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 3: became pregnant. The same year, he began an illicit sexual

826
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 3: relationship with one of his pupils named Mary Ogilvy. The

827
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,800
Speaker 3: age of consent in Britain at the time was sixteen,

828
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 3: and the pair claimed that their relationship didn't begin until

829
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 3: she turned sixteen, which I'm not entirely sureless true, but

830
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 3: I have no way of proving or disproving it completely.

831
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 3: At this time Joyce was between twenty one and twenty

832
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 3: five years of age, So I reckon it's borderline whether

833
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 3: you can accurately call him a pedophile or not. I

834
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 3: say pedophile, you say pedophile, potato potato, But look whether

835
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 3: or not we can technically call Joyce the pedophile. The

836
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 3: relationship is pretty creepy on Joyce's part. He's barely back

837
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 3: from his honeymoon. He's cheating on his pregnant wife with

838
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 3: a teenage schoolgirl who's probably a decade younger thanan So

839
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 3: at the very least, it's an abuse of power from

840
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 3: an authority figure of a vulnerable miner in their care.

841
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 3: So anyway, Joyce's wife appears to have been unaware of

842
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 3: the affair, and she gave birth to their first daughter,

843
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,439
Speaker 3: named after her mother, Hazel, and a few years later

844
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 3: the couple had a second daughter, the dismartaled and domestic

845
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 3: drama side. Joyce was still an active member of the

846
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 3: British Fascisty into the late nineteen twenties, but he drifted

847
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 3: away when the movement began to flounder in the early

848
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 3: nineteen thirties. The movement had always been bankrolled by Rotha Linton,

849
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 3: Orman's wealthy mother, who immediately cut off finances for her

850
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 3: daughter when she heard lured rumors about her daughter's morphine

851
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 3: habit and involvement in alcohol fueled orgies at their country mansion.

852
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 3: Cut off financially, Ormand grew increasingly dependent on alcohol and drugs,

853
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 3: and died within a year Santa Brigada under Canary Islands,

854
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 3: just forty years of age. So for the second time

855
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,760
Speaker 3: in his life, Joyce was politically adrift, having been failed

856
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,359
Speaker 3: by his political messiah. The first political leader to fail

857
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 3: Joyce had been his childhood hero, Sir Edward Carson, the

858
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 3: Irish loyalist leader who had led the pro British movement

859
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:36,359
Speaker 3: against the IRA and any form of Irish independence. Incidentally,

860
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 3: Carson was also the barrister who led the prosecution of

861
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 3: Oscar Wilde for sodomy. Oh good, yeah, there you are

862
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 3: is taking all the boxes. However, Carson had failed Joyce

863
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 3: when he signed up to an agreement with the British

864
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,800
Speaker 3: in the early nineteen twenties, and that saw Southern Ireland,

865
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 3: as we mentioned, begin to break away from England and

866
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 3: effectively abandoning pro British families like the Joyce Is in

867
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 3: the South of Ireland. So now a decade later, he'd

868
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 3: been failed again by the founder, Linton Norman, who died

869
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 3: in obscurity instead of delivering a fascist Britain. So in

870
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:16,280
Speaker 3: the early nineteen thirties, Joyce was once more politically adrift

871
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 3: when a new political savior loomed into view. That is

872
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 3: where we are going to end it for today. What

873
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 3: do you think so far?

874
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 2: Robert who boy pecked a lot of bastardury into end

875
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 2: of this episode already I'm excited to see where he

876
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:33,959
Speaker 2: goes from here.

877
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 3: This is just people don't talk about everyone rushes spray

878
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 3: to World War two, but I think this is fascinating.

879
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, why this guy was a piece of

880
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 2: it wasn't just a piece of shit for opportunistic reasons.

881
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 2: He was a dedicated piece of shit. He worked it.

882
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 2: Being a piece you don't want to you can't take

883
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 2: that away from him. You know that's not fair. He

884
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 2: put in the hours to be a piece of shit.

885
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 2: Ye know, this is that he didn't just start late

886
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 2: in his career. Oh, I'm a believer in honoring hard work.

887
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 3: He's bringing guns to school and spitting an IRA leaders

888
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 3: and these teens like, yeah, he's a piece of work.

889
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,279
Speaker 3: Right is another thing that's a piece of work. Are

890
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:11,919
Speaker 3: your plugg abooks? What do you have to pull it? Oh?

891
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 2: You're asking my pluggables. I mean, if you're here, you

892
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 2: listen to my podcast, so you know basically where to

893
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 2: find me. What about yours?

894
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 3: Well? I have a book out. It is called Burn

895
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:26,399
Speaker 3: Them Out is a history of fascism and far right

896
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 3: in Ireland. That's the title, and it is published by

897
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 3: Bloomsbury head of So if you just google burn Them

898
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 3: Out Irish Fascism, it should come up and you can

899
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 3: buy that online or in all good bookshops and some

900
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:41,320
Speaker 3: bad ones excellent.

901
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 2: Well find it at a good bookshop or a bad one.

902
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 2: You know, I'm assuming you get money either way.

903
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 3: I'm not sure if I still get money if people's shoplifted,

904
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 3: but I assume I did.

905
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 2: No, Yeah, yeah, I mean one way or the other.

906
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 2: The book is moved, right, the book.

907
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 3: Is somebody who has read it.

908
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:59,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, everybody, this has been Behind the Bastards.

909
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 2: We'll be back on Thursday with part two of this story.

910
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 2: Until then, having a nice time.

911
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

912
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

913
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:18,839
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914
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

915
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 1: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

916
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,920
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917
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 1: at Behind the Bastards