1
00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,880
Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five,

2
00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,240
Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hartunger.

3
00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,480
Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger.

4
00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,800
Speaker 1: On the side, we are two working parents who love

5
00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,320
Speaker 1: our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds.

6
00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,400
Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family,

7
00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,800
Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping

8
00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,360
Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get

9
00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:34,120
Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds.

10
00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,480
Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode two hundred and nine,

11
00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,520
Speaker 1: which is airing in early August of twenty twenty one.

12
00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,680
Speaker 1: Sarah is doing a great interview for this episode on

13
00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,639
Speaker 1: the topic of mental load, so we're looking forward to that.

14
00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:52,680
Speaker 1: Can you just tell us really quickly about our guests, Sarah. Yeah,

15
00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,560
Speaker 1: Allison is a PhD candidate, so she's not finished with

16
00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:01,320
Speaker 1: her research, and she's a sociology PhD. And this is

17
00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,480
Speaker 1: the topic that she decided to delve into. So we

18
00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,600
Speaker 1: had a fascinating conversation and I'm sure you will all

19
00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,920
Speaker 1: enjoy it, and it kind of inspired my idea. I

20
00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:11,800
Speaker 1: kind of joked with her that like part of her

21
00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,520
Speaker 1: work was doing multiple conversations with different couples, and I

22
00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:16,040
Speaker 1: was like, I bet you get to a point where

23
00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,200
Speaker 1: you can guess what they're all going to say, and

24
00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,200
Speaker 1: they all think their story is very unique, but like

25
00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,760
Speaker 1: it's like kind of like duh anyway, So then I

26
00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,080
Speaker 1: was like, well, maybe me and Laura can let's see

27
00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,840
Speaker 1: if we have the exact same I don't know division

28
00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:33,560
Speaker 1: of labor mental loads split on a few key items,

29
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,080
Speaker 1: because what she did is she asked about many, many,

30
00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,520
Speaker 1: many many items, many far more than we're going to

31
00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,040
Speaker 1: discuss in this episode, to get a greater understanding of

32
00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,000
Speaker 1: kind of who is doing what in different kinds of households. Yeah,

33
00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,760
Speaker 1: so it's really cool interview. Yeah, now I'm looking forward

34
00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,240
Speaker 1: to hearing it. About a year or so ago, Sarah

35
00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,880
Speaker 1: and I decided to do division of labor here with

36
00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,320
Speaker 1: podcast interviews with our guests, so I have not heard

37
00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,800
Speaker 1: this one, so I'm listening with everybody for the first

38
00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,480
Speaker 1: time too, So forward to that. So all right, Sarah,

39
00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,920
Speaker 1: let's do our rapid poll on who does what mental load?

40
00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:10,000
Speaker 1: All right, who arranges the childcare schedule for the week

41
00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,520
Speaker 1: or like kind of tells your nanny or childcare provider,

42
00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,680
Speaker 1: like what's going on this coming week? That is definitely me.

43
00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,359
Speaker 1: That is one percent the Laura email that comes on

44
00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:27,080
Speaker 1: Sunday telling everybody where to be when, which I know

45
00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,040
Speaker 1: is a very gendered sort of assumption there too, right,

46
00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,000
Speaker 1: I would say that I'm I'm definitely the one who

47
00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,000
Speaker 1: handles more of the childcare decisions. I'm the one who

48
00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,280
Speaker 1: has hired everybody who has, you know, managed the paperwork

49
00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:44,200
Speaker 1: of getting them in the schedule, also just the emotional labor,

50
00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:45,919
Speaker 1: as I guess, so we put it of keeping people

51
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,079
Speaker 1: happy because that is part of the job of managing

52
00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,800
Speaker 1: people too. Although with the schedule thing, I'd point out

53
00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,799
Speaker 1: it's good that I'm doing the scheduling one of us

54
00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,400
Speaker 1: right about time and schedules one of us does not.

55
00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:08,440
Speaker 1: So while yes, that is a probably fairly typical gender split,

56
00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,799
Speaker 1: I think in our case it is also a natural

57
00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:18,400
Speaker 1: abilities split, so and professional interest split as well. How

58
00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,359
Speaker 1: about you, guys, Yes, very similar. Instead of an email,

59
00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,960
Speaker 1: I do a screw, I take a so. I put

60
00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,840
Speaker 1: everything up on our weekly whiteboard in terms of everybody's schedule,

61
00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,079
Speaker 1: including who is driving which days and you know, any

62
00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,000
Speaker 1: activities that we have and then I just take a

63
00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:34,720
Speaker 1: picture of that with my phone and I send it

64
00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,160
Speaker 1: to both my husband and our nanny. That's pretty much

65
00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,200
Speaker 1: every Sunday. Yeah, although I point out that the person

66
00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:44,160
Speaker 1: who controls the schedule has a lot of power and

67
00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:49,040
Speaker 1: so you know, people get assigned to stuff sometimes which

68
00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,280
Speaker 1: maybe they wouldn't have entirely chosen on their own, but

69
00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:53,920
Speaker 1: you know, that's something that comes with that. How about

70
00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,600
Speaker 1: meal planning, I think that's an interesting one. Yes, I

71
00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,880
Speaker 1: also do that. I've been using Prepped for some weeks,

72
00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:02,680
Speaker 1: which which kind of helps take the burden off because

73
00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:04,120
Speaker 1: they plan for you. But then I still have to

74
00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,640
Speaker 1: order all the groceries and stuff, and I include what

75
00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,760
Speaker 1: we're eating on our weekly whiteboard, so that's one of

76
00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:11,680
Speaker 1: the things that goes under each day. So that's kind

77
00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,080
Speaker 1: of part of the first one. But I communicate that

78
00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,760
Speaker 1: I don't cook it, though at this time I could

79
00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:18,680
Speaker 1: see a time in the future when the kids are

80
00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:20,760
Speaker 1: older and our child care news are different when I

81
00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:22,760
Speaker 1: might cook it, and it probably would be me because

82
00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:24,880
Speaker 1: my husband just doesn't come home early enough most of

83
00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,000
Speaker 1: the time. But right now I don't, but I do

84
00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,080
Speaker 1: plan it. Yeah, well, we have a lot of ours

85
00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,640
Speaker 1: is pretty automated. We get the meal kits for two

86
00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,640
Speaker 1: days a week. Wednesdays and Fridays are set like breakfast

87
00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:40,039
Speaker 1: for dinner and make your own pizza. Michael's more likely

88
00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,800
Speaker 1: to think through the weekend meals and he does our

89
00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:47,120
Speaker 1: grocery shopping. So as part of that, he's managing like

90
00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,320
Speaker 1: inventory and things like that and say, oh, we need

91
00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,520
Speaker 1: to do a costco run now. Sometimes I'll do smaller

92
00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,240
Speaker 1: trips like I'll tend to you know, go to act

93
00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,240
Speaker 1: Me to pick up like we're out of one thing

94
00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,560
Speaker 1: during the week. But he tends to do more of

95
00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:05,680
Speaker 1: the food inventory acme. That's so regional. It's like the

96
00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,480
Speaker 1: what's that place in Texas like the AGB or something,

97
00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:11,320
Speaker 1: the way you know if somebody's from there when they're

98
00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,680
Speaker 1: talking about it, or Pigley Wiggly in the South. Oh,

99
00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,040
Speaker 1: do they still exist? I don't know. Maybe they got

100
00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:18,359
Speaker 1: who knows. All right, we'll have to check on that.

101
00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:23,800
Speaker 1: We have more mostly publics they have anyway. Okay, So

102
00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:28,400
Speaker 1: activity sign ups in our case, it depends on who

103
00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,160
Speaker 1: cares about the kid doing the activity, So something like

104
00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,760
Speaker 1: music lessons. I am the one who cares about, so

105
00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:41,000
Speaker 1: that was all in my purview. Something like swim, which

106
00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,839
Speaker 1: he cares more about, has been in his purview. So

107
00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,040
Speaker 1: he signed Alex up for swim lessons and has been

108
00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:50,040
Speaker 1: managing the schedule on that. He did the swim team

109
00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,880
Speaker 1: stuff like managing the tryouts for that, and he's been

110
00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,160
Speaker 1: managing tennis because he cares about that, whereas I've been

111
00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:01,440
Speaker 1: doing karate, because that's more what I think. It's each

112
00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,479
Speaker 1: person owns a sport as more or less how it's

113
00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:08,800
Speaker 1: been going, although slightly differently with weekend stuff because we

114
00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,040
Speaker 1: have to trade off with the sheer number of kids

115
00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,480
Speaker 1: in the games. I was curious, though, because I think

116
00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:15,960
Speaker 1: there's some of this goes with the other gender than

117
00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:21,320
Speaker 1: the child scheduling thing, because I am ninety nine percent

118
00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,400
Speaker 1: sure that I am the one who signed Sam up

119
00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,039
Speaker 1: for little league like that my name was the primary

120
00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:32,640
Speaker 1: contact in the league thing, and yet the emails, all

121
00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,080
Speaker 1: mysteriously from the coach all went to Michael, and I

122
00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,120
Speaker 1: guess that's just the assumption that who cares about twelve

123
00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,520
Speaker 1: year old little league? It's going to be all the dads,

124
00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,120
Speaker 1: and so he'd be like forwarding me the schedule emails

125
00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:46,720
Speaker 1: about that, like, oh, they're supposed to be at the

126
00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:48,880
Speaker 1: game twenty minutes earlier. I never saw that never came

127
00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,720
Speaker 1: to me, which is interesting, right, Like the assumptions people

128
00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:56,640
Speaker 1: make that is very interesting. I say, we discussed together

129
00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,800
Speaker 1: what activities are going to happen, but I generally do

130
00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:02,960
Speaker 1: the signing up. I will say, if there's some sort

131
00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,600
Speaker 1: of like in person sign up required, sometimes he will

132
00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,960
Speaker 1: volunteer to do that. And certainly if there's ever any

133
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:13,200
Speaker 1: like negotiation, like let's say COVID canceled something and we

134
00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,080
Speaker 1: want to like ask for like a refund, I'm very

135
00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,400
Speaker 1: bad at that, like I balk at asking for anything,

136
00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,600
Speaker 1: so and he has no problem with it. So generally,

137
00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,120
Speaker 1: generally that kind of a thing would go to him.

138
00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,080
Speaker 1: So we ended up like that story comes from the

139
00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,920
Speaker 1: fact that my kid's ice skating lessons were a trade

140
00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,800
Speaker 1: from the ice rink because we had prepaid for Annibal's

141
00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,920
Speaker 1: birthday party in like April of twenty twenty, and then

142
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,880
Speaker 1: they had said, like we could use it for a year,

143
00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,880
Speaker 1: but we like never really felt like it was the

144
00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:45,960
Speaker 1: right time during that time period to have a birthday

145
00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:47,880
Speaker 1: party at the ice rink. I mean we probably could

146
00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:49,160
Speaker 1: have done it in the spring, but I don't know.

147
00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,320
Speaker 1: So he was like, can we convert that into credit

148
00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,320
Speaker 1: for skating lessons? And they were like sure. So that's

149
00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:56,480
Speaker 1: what I would never have wanted to ask that question,

150
00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:57,880
Speaker 1: because to me, I would have been like, that's too

151
00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:02,960
Speaker 1: awkward anyway. Okay, so that's activity assignments and sign ups

152
00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:08,520
Speaker 1: doctor's appointments. Yeah, this is also split. I have been

153
00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:15,120
Speaker 1: doing more of the taking kids too doctors appointments this year.

154
00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,640
Speaker 1: I mean partly it's with I think the baby because

155
00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,240
Speaker 1: I was just sort of owning the most of the

156
00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:22,880
Speaker 1: care of the baby, and so I would wind up

157
00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,880
Speaker 1: going with him, although he's gone with him for some

158
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,320
Speaker 1: at other points and apparently I don't know, it's just

159
00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,280
Speaker 1: something the information that comes back is somewhat a bit different.

160
00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:37,800
Speaker 1: But he is interestingly, he owns the orthodonist stuff. So,

161
00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,360
Speaker 1: as we've discussed in the past, so I'm probably you

162
00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:43,560
Speaker 1: often want to split things out. Who cares more about

163
00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,800
Speaker 1: something and I am probably less into the idea of

164
00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:52,760
Speaker 1: perfectly straight teeth. So he's been taking Sam and Ruth

165
00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:57,280
Speaker 1: to the Orthodonist and so he has fully owns that

166
00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,320
Speaker 1: aspect of it, right and then you know, we've split

167
00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:05,000
Speaker 1: stuff like the pediatrician visits, and I've probably been doing

168
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,080
Speaker 1: a few more of those in our house. I do

169
00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:10,760
Speaker 1: ninety percent of it. If once in a while I

170
00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:12,839
Speaker 1: schedule something and then it turns out I can't go,

171
00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:14,960
Speaker 1: he's stepped up and gone. I think he took camera

172
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,800
Speaker 1: into his last well child chech, which was great. I

173
00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,679
Speaker 1: definitely own eye doctor, dentist, orthodonist, et cetera. It's just

174
00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,440
Speaker 1: again more to my skill set. I'll make sure it happens.

175
00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:25,679
Speaker 1: I put it on my planner. I put it in

176
00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:27,439
Speaker 1: my planner like when to make the appointment because a

177
00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:29,920
Speaker 1: lot of times their appointments aren't open, and because I

178
00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,000
Speaker 1: can see it from the provider side, and I kind

179
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,760
Speaker 1: of understand how that works. I'm pretty good at like

180
00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,360
Speaker 1: working the system, Like I knew out of all needed

181
00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:38,679
Speaker 1: it back to school and I was like, when does

182
00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:40,160
Speaker 1: your schedule open up? And then they told me the

183
00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:41,920
Speaker 1: specific day it opened up, and so I called that

184
00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,280
Speaker 1: day so I could have my pick. Like he wouldn't

185
00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,360
Speaker 1: do that, So it's cool. I don't mind doing that. Plus,

186
00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,280
Speaker 1: as somebody who is like a pediatrician, even though I

187
00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:52,880
Speaker 1: practice in a specialty, I do kind of like to

188
00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,200
Speaker 1: be the one at most of their appointments because I

189
00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,920
Speaker 1: can have that viewpoints. Yeah, yeah, no, And I think

190
00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,520
Speaker 1: it's also I was thinking about it. It It also corresponds

191
00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,520
Speaker 1: with the fact that Michael has been working at home

192
00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,800
Speaker 1: for the past sixteen months, as there's been more availability

193
00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,080
Speaker 1: for things like orthodonist appointments. I think that that would

194
00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,480
Speaker 1: have split quite a bit differently if the work travel

195
00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,120
Speaker 1: had still been going on as it would but as

196
00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:20,920
Speaker 1: it's been in this it's been easier to sort of

197
00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,640
Speaker 1: share certain things just when you're more physically around, which

198
00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:30,440
Speaker 1: is hey, an upside of COVID. The next one is

199
00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,400
Speaker 1: we're going I feel like I've claimed ownership to everything

200
00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,640
Speaker 1: that that's about to change, arranging anything related to yard

201
00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:41,439
Speaker 1: work or landscaping. Yeah, this is kind of Michael's baby.

202
00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:47,199
Speaker 1: He I also just cares more about it, and I

203
00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,880
Speaker 1: would say there's been I would probably do it differently.

204
00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,160
Speaker 1: I would like fully outsource it where I think he

205
00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,120
Speaker 1: wants to be more involved in the details of it,

206
00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:57,640
Speaker 1: which he if he were doing this interview, he might

207
00:10:57,720 --> 00:10:59,240
Speaker 1: say that he doesn't want to be involved, but you

208
00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,480
Speaker 1: have to be if you want it done right or something.

209
00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,480
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's the case, but there is

210
00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,320
Speaker 1: again the thing who cares more. And I care about it,

211
00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,040
Speaker 1: but not enough to be like going to the garden

212
00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,040
Speaker 1: store and looking at different plants and thinking about where

213
00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,440
Speaker 1: they might go. Although we've had this discussion that sometimes

214
00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,720
Speaker 1: I suspect the yard work is a way to claim

215
00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:25,000
Speaker 1: some me time on weekends. It's like, now now we

216
00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,679
Speaker 1: have to go to the gardens. It's like, really, all right,

217
00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,560
Speaker 1: take a kid with you. Well, we finally hired someone

218
00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,520
Speaker 1: to mow our lawn and trim and stuff, and it's

219
00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,320
Speaker 1: we have such a small amount of landscaping where we live.

220
00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,800
Speaker 1: That's it's like not expensive at all, and it's the

221
00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,120
Speaker 1: most wonderful thing ever, because before it was like I

222
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:43,600
Speaker 1: don't know if it was an excuse, but it was

223
00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:45,760
Speaker 1: definitely like something to do, which always left me with

224
00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,679
Speaker 1: all three children. So yeah, I'm thrilled to say that

225
00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,000
Speaker 1: he takes care of I do nothing having to I mean,

226
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,880
Speaker 1: I have zero interests, like negative amounts of interest in

227
00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,880
Speaker 1: this facet of life. And so he hired the people

228
00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,959
Speaker 1: and I never think about any of that at all.

229
00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,000
Speaker 1: That's probably you know, your guests would say, that's one

230
00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,559
Speaker 1: of the gendered things, like that's most likely gendered. Yeah,

231
00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:10,960
Speaker 1: the guy doing the same with car and home maintenance, right,

232
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,800
Speaker 1: which is your next item on the list? Like who, yes,

233
00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,080
Speaker 1: puts air or even things like air and bike tires right,

234
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,840
Speaker 1: like that tends to be the sort of daddy thing

235
00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,040
Speaker 1: that people think about, or like I don't even like

236
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,600
Speaker 1: to put air in my own car tire. Yeah meat either,

237
00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,560
Speaker 1: So home and car maintenance also goes to him. If

238
00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:30,079
Speaker 1: the air conditioner breaks in the middle of the day

239
00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:31,679
Speaker 1: and I'm home, I text him and I'm like, what

240
00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:33,200
Speaker 1: do I do? Who do I call? I don't even know?

241
00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,480
Speaker 1: Like again, I do a lot of other stuff, as

242
00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:37,959
Speaker 1: we've discussed, so I don't really feel bad about this.

243
00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,440
Speaker 1: I know that not only do I not really care

244
00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,040
Speaker 1: about it, but I'm probably not going to do a

245
00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,360
Speaker 1: great job because I've never invested any Like when the

246
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,760
Speaker 1: repair people come and they're like, where's the panel, I'm like,

247
00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:53,800
Speaker 1: I don't know. Again, doing other things, So I think

248
00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,839
Speaker 1: I'm okay with it. The way that split is. I

249
00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,320
Speaker 1: do hate that it's so stereotyped, but yeah, that's how

250
00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,000
Speaker 1: we have it in our household. What about you? We

251
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,719
Speaker 1: I mean, well, we each have our own cars that

252
00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,280
Speaker 1: we are more responsible for. Like, so if there's something

253
00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:09,640
Speaker 1: wrong with my car, I'm obviously going to go to

254
00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,120
Speaker 1: be the one taking it in, yes, or getting the

255
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:16,640
Speaker 1: annual Pennsylvania inspection. And obviously he does his car. The van,

256
00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:21,120
Speaker 1: it tends to be either him or our nannies have

257
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,120
Speaker 1: taken it in sometimes, like if we've been in a

258
00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,000
Speaker 1: stage where the kids are in preschool, for instance, that

259
00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,520
Speaker 1: has been often under their purview to go take it

260
00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,559
Speaker 1: in for oil changes or for the Pennsylvania State inspection.

261
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,280
Speaker 1: But again, since he's been home, he could do that one.

262
00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,520
Speaker 1: Just go take the Toyota in, sit in the parking

263
00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:41,400
Speaker 1: lot for an hour while they're doing whatever, and then

264
00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,040
Speaker 1: get the get it and take it home. So yeah,

265
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,000
Speaker 1: that's that's kind of the split on that one. Okay,

266
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:53,960
Speaker 1: and last night parenting, But again this is just you know,

267
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,160
Speaker 1: the difference of COVID versus not COVID because I was

268
00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,000
Speaker 1: doing far more of it when there was more traps.

269
00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,400
Speaker 1: There hasn't been as much over the last year and

270
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:08,800
Speaker 1: a half, and so it's been slightly more split. He's

271
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,240
Speaker 1: kind of taken on. I think he would never like

272
00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:12,959
Speaker 1: make the kids go to bed, like the fact of

273
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:17,520
Speaker 1: remembering it's bedtime is kind of all me, like taking

274
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,560
Speaker 1: the phones away, making sure they've showered or whatever. But

275
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,560
Speaker 1: then he's been doing the book reading, like longer book

276
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,280
Speaker 1: reading with a lot of the kids, So he and

277
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,720
Speaker 1: Ruth do Nancy Drew. They've been reading through a lot

278
00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,200
Speaker 1: of the classic Nancy Drew books. Just started Encyclopedia Brown

279
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,320
Speaker 1: with Alex, so a lot of series going on there.

280
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,760
Speaker 1: So it's it's just a different kind of split than

281
00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,440
Speaker 1: it has been in the past. I would say in

282
00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:45,000
Speaker 1: our house, he does the like if at nine pm

283
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,840
Speaker 1: everyone's still running around, I often just like give up,

284
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:49,600
Speaker 1: like I cannot take it anymore. And if he's there,

285
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,720
Speaker 1: I'm like, it's your turn. Because sometimes he's not there,

286
00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,600
Speaker 1: so I feel very like validated. If he's there, then great,

287
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,520
Speaker 1: it's your turn. If somebody wakes up, usually Genevieve, in

288
00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:58,640
Speaker 1: the middle of the night and is like, oh, you

289
00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,160
Speaker 1: need water, I feel like I'm more likely to hear it.

290
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,800
Speaker 1: But if he hears it, he'll do it, So maybe

291
00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,320
Speaker 1: fifty to fifty. Yeah, we've actually started some nights because

292
00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,560
Speaker 1: I think I'm more likely to hear Henry. I don't

293
00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:15,800
Speaker 1: know it's this weird mommy thing or something, but maybe

294
00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,480
Speaker 1: you are more likely to hear your kid. I've will

295
00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,800
Speaker 1: sleep some nights in the guest room and he can

296
00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,480
Speaker 1: sleep in the room that's by Henry, and then he's

297
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,360
Speaker 1: less likely to hear him. So if it's a minor interruption,

298
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,680
Speaker 1: like a less than five minutes he's up, it just

299
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:36,920
Speaker 1: doesn't even register, whereas I would probably hear it. So

300
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,640
Speaker 1: that's been nice, you know, I like those nights. I'm like,

301
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,520
Speaker 1: especially if it's been a rough early morning or something.

302
00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,360
Speaker 1: I would say I'm definitely the early morning parent at

303
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,560
Speaker 1: the moment that if somebody's up with the baby from

304
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,800
Speaker 1: five forty five to six forty five, that's ninety percent

305
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,080
Speaker 1: of the time me and then hand them over and

306
00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,120
Speaker 1: try to get another forty five minutes of sleep or

307
00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,400
Speaker 1: something like that. You'll like, knock on some selves surface

308
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,360
Speaker 1: right now, because thankfully there has not been early morning

309
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,320
Speaker 1: parenting in our home for a while, so let's hope

310
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,360
Speaker 1: it doesn't come back. All right, Well, that was a

311
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:13,440
Speaker 1: long mental load discussion. I think we'll take our break

312
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:29,400
Speaker 1: and go to our interview. Welcome to best of both worlds.

313
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,000
Speaker 1: The interview segment I have Alison Daminger here. She is

314
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,720
Speaker 1: a PhD candidate in sociology and social policy at Harvard,

315
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,840
Speaker 1: and she sent us an email that intrigued me very much.

316
00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,520
Speaker 1: We have had a few other speakers on this podcast

317
00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,880
Speaker 1: before that have expertise in the realm of mental load

318
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,520
Speaker 1: and division of labor within households, but that is the

319
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,680
Speaker 1: kind of up and coming topic that Allison is actually studying.

320
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,200
Speaker 1: So I was so excited to have her on the show.

321
00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,720
Speaker 1: Welcome Allison, I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for

322
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,640
Speaker 1: having me. Sarah, you are welcome. So the first thing

323
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:08,040
Speaker 1: I wanted to know was how did you find this field.

324
00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,720
Speaker 1: You told me previously you don't have kids yet, so

325
00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,000
Speaker 1: it wasn't for real life experience. So tell me how

326
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,400
Speaker 1: you got interested in this area and kind of where

327
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:20,120
Speaker 1: the journey has taken you thus far. Yeah. So, I

328
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:24,760
Speaker 1: have always been interested in families and parent child relationships,

329
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,560
Speaker 1: and so when I started grad school, I initially thought

330
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,720
Speaker 1: I would do research on school choice and how parents

331
00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,080
Speaker 1: pick schools for their kids, what factor to go into it.

332
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,000
Speaker 1: And I was starting on that project. In one of

333
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,000
Speaker 1: my first year graduate school classes, we had to do

334
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,639
Speaker 1: interviews and I was talking with several couples about the

335
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,200
Speaker 1: school choice process, and in the course of those conversations,

336
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,159
Speaker 1: it kind of struck me a bit. Wow, there's a

337
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,040
Speaker 1: lot of work that goes into making this decision. There's

338
00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:58,840
Speaker 1: almost research that has to be done. There's all this

339
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:03,400
Speaker 1: coordinating visits and open houses, and they had spreadsheets, and

340
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,520
Speaker 1: it struck me that, you know, in the small number

341
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,480
Speaker 1: of couples that I was talking with for that particular class,

342
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:15,720
Speaker 1: it was very gendered. Right. Both parents were definitely signed

343
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,679
Speaker 1: off on the decision that was made. They both often

344
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,880
Speaker 1: did the tours together, but a lot of the logistical

345
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,879
Speaker 1: work of figuring out what the options were and trying

346
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,879
Speaker 1: to understand the various pros and cons and meet with

347
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,560
Speaker 1: officials that tended to be more on the female partner

348
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:35,920
Speaker 1: in the different sex couples that I was talking with.

349
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,760
Speaker 1: So that experience kind of turned on something in my

350
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,879
Speaker 1: head like, oh, this decision making is kind of like work.

351
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,600
Speaker 1: And it coincided with a couple other things that I

352
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,520
Speaker 1: had done previously. So I have a background in behavioral science.

353
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,560
Speaker 1: I worked in a company that takes insights from the

354
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,320
Speaker 1: realm behavioral economics and tries to apply it to solving

355
00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,280
Speaker 1: real world problems. And one of the big concepts that

356
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,160
Speaker 1: I was working with was this idea of scarcity and

357
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:09,520
Speaker 1: the bandwidth tax. So we have limited cognitive capacity if

358
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,359
Speaker 1: we're depleted in terms of calories or time or money.

359
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,199
Speaker 1: That leads us to kind of tunnel in on a

360
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,280
Speaker 1: particular pressing problem. Right. So I sort of combined these

361
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,280
Speaker 1: two ideas and said, what if there was this sort

362
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:30,040
Speaker 1: of bandwidth tax of parenthood, right, which might explain some

363
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,520
Speaker 1: of the different ways that it affects men and women

364
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,360
Speaker 1: not just in their time, but also in where their

365
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,879
Speaker 1: mental energy goes. And I'm sure those of you who

366
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,800
Speaker 1: are parents that you're like, yes, this is very obvious,

367
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,280
Speaker 1: of course, right, but it hadn't been studied in this

368
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,120
Speaker 1: particular way before. I want to take a step back

369
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,919
Speaker 1: and talk more delve into this bandwidth tax, and I

370
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,280
Speaker 1: want to hear a little, I guess, a few examples

371
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,520
Speaker 1: of how you see that applied parents versus non parents.

372
00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:58,760
Speaker 1: I feel like, instinctively, I think I know what you're

373
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,119
Speaker 1: talking about, but maybe you can kind of, I don't know,

374
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,800
Speaker 1: put it in more concrete terms for myself and our audience. Sure,

375
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,040
Speaker 1: So I'll start with the you know, non parenting related example,

376
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,440
Speaker 1: and then we can talk about how it applies to parenting.

377
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,880
Speaker 1: So the class of example I often give when I'm

378
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,679
Speaker 1: talking about this is if you think back to your

379
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,760
Speaker 1: school days, your college days, when you probably had some

380
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,760
Speaker 1: stressful exam periods, right, and during that time, you know

381
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,920
Speaker 1: you have a scarcity of time and attention because it's

382
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,040
Speaker 1: all going toward, Okay, what's this paper I have to write,

383
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,560
Speaker 1: what's this final I have to study for your tunneling

384
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,000
Speaker 1: on whatever day your exams are done, And if you're

385
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,479
Speaker 1: anything like me and I think most people, a lot

386
00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,639
Speaker 1: of other things get neglected during that time, right, Like

387
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:45,359
Speaker 1: your socks are all over the floor, You forget to

388
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 1: call your mom. You're not necessarily exercising because this like

389
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,760
Speaker 1: pressing thing is sort of taking up front and center

390
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,640
Speaker 1: of your brain space. So that's kind of an example

391
00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:00,560
Speaker 1: of how scarcity shapes the way that we make in

392
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,960
Speaker 1: the long run. Right, it's probably important that we maintain

393
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,159
Speaker 1: our family relationships and our health. Right, even during this

394
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,400
Speaker 1: exam period. We don't always make the best decisions when

395
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 1: we're really tunneled in. So in the context of parenting, right,

396
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,720
Speaker 1: you can imagine two different versions. One is you are,

397
00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,040
Speaker 1: you know, kind of along for the ride and you

398
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 1: know that your partner has it covered and they'll bring

399
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,680
Speaker 1: whatever you need to your attention and it'll cross your

400
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 1: mental brain space, you know, when you need to deal

401
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,160
Speaker 1: with it and talk about it. Right. That's that's one option.

402
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 1: Then the other is that you have this constant swirl

403
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,199
Speaker 1: of Okay, this is coming up next week, I need

404
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,679
Speaker 1: to remember the cleats for soccer on Tuesday. What is

405
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 1: it the deal with this person's you know, teacher, All

406
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 1: these sorts of things that are swirling, and it sort

407
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 1: of forces you to kind of feel like you're in

408
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,640
Speaker 1: this state of urgency at all times, right, which has

409
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,640
Speaker 1: opportunity costs. Or you can't just like turn that off

410
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,440
Speaker 1: when you're not in the home in the same way

411
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 1: that you can sort of say, okay, dirty dishes out

412
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:11,120
Speaker 1: of sight, out of mind. These thoughts and worries and

413
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,640
Speaker 1: things that you notice and plan for are not going

414
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:16,719
Speaker 1: to be able to be shut off, and that's an

415
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 1: opportunity cost for the mental energy, the bandwidth that you

416
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,439
Speaker 1: could devote to other things you're interested in. So to

417
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 1: combine your two examples, I think you're suggesting that in

418
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 1: many cases, women end up feeling end up going through

419
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 1: life kind of like they're always in final exam period.

420
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,119
Speaker 1: I guess with limited bandwidth because it's being kind of

421
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 1: sucked up by other things. That's so interesting. It actually

422
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,439
Speaker 1: made me think personally to how when I'm on call,

423
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 1: and because we take call from home and it's like

424
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 1: twenty four to seven call when we take it, I

425
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 1: can't do anything else effectively. And I know that's because

426
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 1: my bandwidth is being sucked up by thinking about who's

427
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 1: in the hospital, who's going to call me. I had

428
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:55,719
Speaker 1: to be nice when they call me, like what are

429
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: they going to call me about? Like, so I actually

430
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 1: have a very hard time like parentsing effective we be

431
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 1: nice to people outside of that side of things, it's

432
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,439
Speaker 1: like I don't have enough. So that's that's so interesting. Okay,

433
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 1: so that's what got you enticed? And how have you

434
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,440
Speaker 1: gone about studying this? As you said earlier, I think

435
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 1: it's increasingly being talked about. I started this project in

436
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,120
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. It's come a long way even in those

437
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 1: five years in terms of the national consciousness. But back

438
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 1: then it was sort of like, Okay, there's this invisible stuff.

439
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure, it's there, and it's a big part

440
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 1: of household life and of parenting, but I wasn't sure

441
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 1: how aware people would be and sort of how able

442
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 1: they would be to kind of talk about what they

443
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 1: were doing for the household. Because we're used to thinking

444
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 1: about cleaning and cooking as chores as work, we can

445
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 1: probably say who does them in our household, but for

446
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 1: many people, it's more of a stretch to say, well,

447
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,119
Speaker 1: who does the noticing in your household? Who remembers when

448
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 1: you're running low on toilet paper and things like that.

449
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,239
Speaker 1: So what I did was I created these I call

450
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 1: them decision diaries, and they're basically like time logs, so

451
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 1: Laura will appreciate this. Where I asked people for about

452
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 1: twenty four hours prior to our interview to just jot

453
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: down any decision that they'd made or thought about related

454
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,239
Speaker 1: to their household. So it was things like, you know,

455
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: what should I feed my daughter for breakfast? Or oh,

456
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,120
Speaker 1: I should probably get new shoes because you know, little

457
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 1: Johnny's complaining that his feet hurt in these boots. And

458
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: I had slots columns for the time where they were

459
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 1: whether they involved anyone else in it, And I used

460
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 1: the results from those decision logs to structure our interview.

461
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 1: So I would get to the interview and let's say

462
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: someone put down, you know, my first decision was what

463
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 1: to feed my daughter for breakfast, and so I would

464
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: kind of ask them to walk me through how they

465
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: made that decision, and in the process, I would say, well,

466
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 1: tell me what your options were. What were you choosing

467
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: between the serial versus eggs versus yogurt? And then you know,

468
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: they give me the options and then we talk about, well,

469
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,919
Speaker 1: how did those options, you know, get into your cabinets.

470
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 1: Tell me about how you knew what was on hand,

471
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 1: you know, is it usually you who's stocking the pantry

472
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: or things like that, and how do you decide what

473
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: counts as an acceptable breakfast, right, because if you at

474
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: some point someone had to say, like, these are the

475
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: three things we feed our kids, right, and now you're

476
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 1: choosing among them. Right. So that's, you know, one example,

477
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 1: but we would do something similar for each entry in

478
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: their log, and I talked to spouse's separately, so I

479
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 1: would often interview them back to back on the same day.

480
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 1: They would trade off childcare or whatever. And because they

481
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 1: had both corted a log on the same day. There

482
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 1: was often a lot of overlap, right. They'd both talk about,

483
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: you know, oh, we were facing this tricky decision with school,

484
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: and it would be really informative to juxtapose their two

485
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 1: versions of events, right, Because one of the things I

486
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 1: found is that contrary to the stereotypical nineteen fifties dad,

487
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 1: most of the men I spoke with were like they

488
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: knew their kids, they weren't very involved in their kids' lives.

489
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: But when it got down to the nitty gritty of

490
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: how did we figure out, how did this particular problem

491
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 1: come to our attention, or who gathered the information, who

492
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: made the spreadsheet? A lot of that was where moms

493
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: just had more detail and they could really clearly articulate

494
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 1: the rationale for why certain choices had been made and

495
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 1: not made, whereas dads were aware but a little bit

496
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 1: more it was vague about it. So that's one example.

497
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: But I kind of teased apart their daily logs and

498
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: used that to talk about broader patterns in the household.

499
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: So interesting, did you look at any like same gender

500
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: couples to maybe compare and contrast if the division was

501
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: handled differently. I had a handful of same gender couples,

502
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: not enough to draw really extensive conclusions. I will say

503
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 1: that the ones that I spoke with, it wasn't perfectly

504
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: fifty to fifty, but they did seem to be a

505
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 1: lot more aware and cognizant of the dynamics right, Whereas

506
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: the different sex couples that I talked to, you could

507
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: kind of hear them having like aha moments as we

508
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: were speaking and sort of saying, oh, you know, my

509
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 1: wife really does a lot like I hadn't really thought

510
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 1: about these aspects of fronting the household, whereas I talked

511
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 1: to a few lesbian couples where they were very clear that,

512
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 1: you know, yes, my partner tends to be the one

513
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: who was doing this stuff. We've talked about it. I

514
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: try and do what I can. You know, there's still

515
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: issues about fairness, but it was much less taken for granted,

516
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 1: and it sounds like it was more out in the

517
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: open for that reason. It's interesting. How about other patterns

518
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 1: in the data, like did things depend on how the

519
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: level of education or the types of jobs people had?

520
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: Did you look at stay at home people who didn't

521
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: go to a job outside of the home. I'm super

522
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: interested in some of the like variables and how that

523
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 1: might affect the broader picture. Yeah, so these are these

524
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: are great questions. So I've done two like relative studies

525
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: on the same topic. In one, I just looked at

526
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 1: couples who both had college degrees, and then in a

527
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 1: more recent study, I've looked at a wider range of

528
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 1: educational backgrounds. And I had all these hypotheses about how

529
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 1: education might shape cognitive labor patterns, and I thought, you know,

530
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: maybe the highly educated folks might be more equitable, because

531
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: in general gender galitarian beliefs are higher among those of

532
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: the college degree. I'm still looking through that data, but

533
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: so far I haven't found a ton of nuance. It

534
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: seems to be that whether or not you have a

535
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: bachelor's degree, the gendered patterns where women do more of

536
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: this work seems to hold. There are some nuances and

537
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: differences when it comes to things like physical chores. There's

538
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: also I found that folks who didn't have a college degree,

539
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: it seemed to be a little bit more okay calling

540
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: certain things men's work versus women's work, whereas those who

541
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 1: were college educated were a little bit more careful not

542
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: to use those sort of gender stereotypes. But the actual

543
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: patterns didn't seem all that different by class or by

544
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: educational grouping. It's kind of amusing. Actually, that's very interesting. Well,

545
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: I know this is not necessarily the focus of your research,

546
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: but is there any sort of like so then what

547
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: I mean, are women just going to be limited by

548
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: bandwidth forever? Is that? Were there any people that did

549
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: your study and then came back to you later and said,

550
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: oh my goodness, like, wow, we didn't realize it until

551
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: we lined up those twenty four hour time logs and

552
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: now it's so much better. Yeah, there were a handful

553
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: of people. I always sent like a thank you email

554
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: after the interviews, and a handful of people wrote back

555
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: and said, no, thank you, We had these the best

556
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: conversation after you left, like we should have done this

557
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: years ago. So I in that points to kind of

558
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 1: the first step is to name it and acknowledge the

559
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: dynamic in your relationship, whatever it is. If one person

560
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: is doing more, if you think you're doing it well.

561
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: But I think what a lot of couples do is

562
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: fall into a pattern and then you know, at some

563
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: point later on they might decide this isn't really working

564
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: for me, right, But at that point, you didn't necessarily

565
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: like set out to do it, but you've established these

566
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: patterns and routines that are then going to be really

567
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: hard to break, right. So I think talking about the

568
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: different contributions that each partner makes to the household, whether

569
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: that be parenting or like managing and organizing or earning money,

570
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: all sorts of ways that you each contribute, I think

571
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: it's important to lay them into account and talk about

572
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: where you are and are not living up to your ideals. Right.

573
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: Like I, personally in my relationships, strive for fifty to

574
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: fifty in the cognitive labor but I know a lot

575
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: of people who tell me they prefer something different, that

576
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: it works for them to be the one to maintain

577
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: more of the organizational role, right. So I think as

578
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: long as you're in communication with your partner about what

579
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: the goal is and can think about what is keeping

580
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: you from achieving that goal, then that's all to the good.

581
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 1: And then from there, I think a big issue that

582
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: I often hear from people when they're trying to allocate

583
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,959
Speaker 1: the mental load more equitably is that it's really hard

584
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:46,719
Speaker 1: to delegate, right because you have all this knowledge in

585
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: your head and carving out one little piece of it.

586
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: To tell your spouse to sign up for baseball, Well,

587
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: if you know, like all the different baseball leagues that

588
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: are available in the area, and you kind of know

589
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: the schedule for the family and what would work, and

590
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: it's going to be hard for your spouse to just

591
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: carve out that piece without all of the contextual information.

592
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: The one thing I tell people is, you know, when

593
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: you're assigning responsibility, try and do it not for a

594
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: particular task, but almost like you know, vertically, if right,

595
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: like if your spouse is in charge of extracurriculars, like

596
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: let them be in charge of all extracurriculars and then

597
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: they learn to you know, build the relationships, get the information,

598
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: the systems, et cetera that will help them to do

599
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: it better. I think if you've been in a sort

600
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: of more unequal pattern for a while, there's going to

601
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: be a steep learning curve probably and it will be

602
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: tempting to sort of say like, oh, I should probably

603
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: just do this anyway because you're not doing it. Well.

604
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: If that works for you, great, But if your goal

605
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: is sort of long term more equality than trusting that

606
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: if you and your spouse are you know, both committed

607
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: to it that he or she will learn over time

608
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: and build the skills that you have built over months, year's,

609
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 1: decades that you've been doing that particular job. So name it,

610
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: be clear about who's doing what, divide up that responsibility

611
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: not just by task but by overall area, and and

612
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: be patient and sort of give it time to develop.

613
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: So did you also look into that bandwidth question in

614
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: terms of do people who are taking on a much

615
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: greater share of these household details find themselves floundering in

616
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: other areas? Is there a way of assessing that? Yeah,

617
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: with the data that I have, I was only able

618
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: to get at sort of the suggestion of you know

619
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: what people told me. So I'm hoping and I know

620
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: of some people other researchers who are developing quantitative skills

621
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: for measuring the sort of thing and correlating it at

622
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: the population level. So stay tuned, hopefully we'll have more

623
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: on that. The thing that I did see often was

624
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: that a lot of people, mostly women in my sample,

625
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: were just feeling like stressed and run down and anxious,

626
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: and yet they felt like their partners were contributing, and

627
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: it was sort of hard for them to articulate exactly

628
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: why they felt like it was so burdensome, and so

629
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: I think what happens is a lot of this work

630
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: is invisible, and so you don't necessarily get credit for

631
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 1: doing it in the same way that you get credit

632
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: for driving your kid to soccer practice or cleaning up

633
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: the kitchen after dinner. I think there was some relationship tension,

634
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 1: some just like feelings of stress and anxiety that people

635
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: were having a hard time justifying. Those were the things

636
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 1: that came up in my interviews. I studied a range

637
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: of couples in terms of their employment patterns, so a

638
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: lot of most of the men and most of the

639
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: women were employed. I did find some stay at home dads,

640
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: some stay at home moms, and I don't have any

641
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 1: way of saying like what caused them to do that

642
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 1: versus trying to the dual career thing. But I know

643
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: that for the working moms, like figuring out how to

644
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: be present for their kids, you know, not just physically

645
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 1: but mentally, was something that they worried a lot about.

646
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: I think this speaks to my normal sunday. I guess

647
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 1: my husband and I sometimes both get stressed, but I

648
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: feel like I'm so much more stressed and he's like,

649
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: why are you stressed? And it's like, I don't know.

650
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: I just feel like there's so many pieces in the

651
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 1: air and like I'm in charge, but really, I mean

652
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,919
Speaker 1: he's in charge too. But I'm sure this is like, oh, yes,

653
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,760
Speaker 1: this is like every interview I've ever had. So we're normal.

654
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: That's you're very normal. Yes, that sounds super familiar. And

655
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: you know. One thing that that I think really speaks

656
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: to is that women, you know, and moms in particular,

657
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: often get a reputation for being anxious and tight and worriers.

658
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: And I think there's a complicated issue, but one piece

659
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 1: of that is that they often have a lot more

660
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: to worry about because they're the ones many cases, will

661
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: be on the hook if something goes wrong. If you know,

662
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 1: you you forget to schedule a babysitter, right, it might

663
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,399
Speaker 1: be your work that gets sacrificed. Or if your kid

664
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 1: shows up to daycare with the wrong you know, or

665
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: without the swimsuit, then the daycare people will probably judge

666
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 1: you rather than your partner. Right. So there's a lot

667
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,879
Speaker 1: of it is like the context of what women have

668
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: to worry about in many cases. That's so interesting. I

669
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: don't want to use the term gas lighting lightly, but

670
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 1: I think that if I think the trope of the

671
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 1: anxious woman, if the woman is the one that is

672
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 1: worrying about many of the details, that's almost appropriate. I'm

673
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: not applying that to my own situation, but just in general. Yeah, yeah,

674
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 1: And I think it's true because one of the things

675
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: that people couples talk about is like, well is this

676
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: really necessary? You know, they will disagree over whether it's

677
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: important that you send out a holiday card to your

678
00:36:54,680 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: relatives or whether it matters that your kid has particular

679
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:04,760
Speaker 1: fular item of clothing. Right, And it's tricky, right because

680
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: I think both parties end up benefiting, right, because you know,

681
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 1: you don't get labeled by your older relatives as not

682
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 1: keeping up the family or exactly exactly, but you know

683
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,320
Speaker 1: you might individually prioritize different tasks. So I think figuring

684
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: out like is this really just something that's all in

685
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 1: my head? Like is this or is this something that

686
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: will benefit our children or our family or et cetera.

687
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,479
Speaker 1: I love it. Well, if you were going to offer

688
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: one piece of advice to families, maybe just starting out

689
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: and laying things out, I mean you kind of said

690
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 1: some of it. But if you were going to write

691
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 1: a roadmap, and I don't know if that's part of

692
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 1: your plans, you can tell us if it is, how

693
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: would you suggest going about things? Yeah? I think the

694
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: first thing you can do is keep that decision log

695
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 1: exercise that I talked about it for a day or two,

696
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 1: whatever you and your partner decide on. Just reflect on

697
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: what decisions you're making for your family, your kids, et cetera.

698
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: If you want, you can, you know, write down some

699
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: more details about where you were and what time it

700
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,919
Speaker 1: was and then sit down with your spouse and compare them,

701
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: you know, and the findings might surprise you, right, You

702
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: might find, as many of the couples that I talked

703
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: to did that one person's list looks a whole lot

704
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 1: longer than the other person's list, And that is I

705
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: think starting from that piece of concrete evidence, rather than like,

706
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 1: I feel like you're not doing your part right, is

707
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: often a more constructive way to start moving forward. Right,

708
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: So start there, see what is happening, talk about whether

709
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 1: you like what is happening or not, and then think about, Okay,

710
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: I saw on your decision long you're handling all these

711
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: decisions about food like that, is that what we want,

712
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 1: right or would it be better for this other person

713
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: to handle the food decisions far from the facts, keep

714
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 1: the lug and then go from there to figure out

715
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 1: what works for your particular situation. I love that and

716
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: thinking about the vertical owner, I think that's a great term.

717
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: I hadn't heard that one used before, but it does

718
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: remind me of how I think Laura's husband. You still

719
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: always do all the dentist stuff, and it's like, well,

720
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: if you never touched that stuff, and you're probably never

721
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: going to worry about it, and that's great if everyone's

722
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 1: decided that that's what's going to happen exactly. Well, you

723
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 1: may have heard this show before or you may not.

724
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but if you have, then I would

725
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 1: you know that we always do a love of the

726
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: week in every episode, so I would love to hear

727
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 1: do you have a love of the week for us?

728
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: I do? Yeah. So I just finished a really great

729
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 1: novel called Olympus Texas. It's by Stacy Swan. I think

730
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: I heard about this on Modern Missus Darcy, so those

731
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: of you who listened to that might recognize it. It's

732
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 1: this novel loosely based on the Metaphorphoses by Ovid, but

733
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: it takes a Texas family. The opening is that one

734
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: of the brothers has just come back into town from

735
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: two years in exile, so to speak, because he was

736
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 1: caught sleeping with his brother's wife, and that's that's the opener.

737
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: It gets even more dramatic from there. But the characters

738
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: are so well drawn. They're not necessarily super sympathetic. I

739
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 1: think they're all likable but deeply flawed, and it's just

740
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 1: a riveting, like family saga. So if you're into that

741
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 1: sort of thing, I highly recommend Olympus Texas by Stacy

742
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 1: Swan excellent. Well mine will be a series that's not

743
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: even out yet, but maybe will be by the time

744
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: this episode airs. But that's the fact that the Netflix

745
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 1: show Never Have I Ever is coming out with their

746
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: second season. That is a Mindy Kayaling created series about

747
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 1: an Indian American teenager whose father had passed away. I

748
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: loved like every episode of the last season, so I'm

749
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 1: so excited. I just found out they're going into season two,

750
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: so that will be coming up soon. Awesome. Maybe I'll

751
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: have to watch the first season to catch up before

752
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 1: that happens. Oh, it's so much fun. Well, thank you

753
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: so much for being on our show. We loved having you,

754
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: and we always love discussing this topic. It is a

755
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,320
Speaker 1: relevant one for many of the listeners of this show,

756
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 1: so we truly appreciate it. Tell our listeners if there's

757
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: anywhere they can find you or where your research is

758
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,839
Speaker 1: going to be coming out. Yeah, So the best way

759
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: to keep up with me right now is via my newsletter.

760
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: So it's Alisondamenger dot substock dot com, and there I

761
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,800
Speaker 1: write a lot about, you know, the sociology of parenting

762
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 1: and family and marriage, and it's meant to be for

763
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 1: non academics, so I try and do my best to

764
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: translate these sorts of findings to folks who do not

765
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 1: have an interest in pouring through the academic literature. So

766
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 1: that's the best way to find me for now. I'm

767
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:43,439
Speaker 1: totally going to subscribe. Also, we'll have a wonderful rest

768
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,439
Speaker 1: of your day. Thank you you too. All right, well,

769
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 1: that was great. Now we are into our listener question,

770
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: which is about the hamster wheel of work, shuttling kids, dinner, clean,

771
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: packing up for the next day. Again, so this listener

772
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 1: writes in that she loves her job and career and

773
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 1: is facing the decision of returning full time post baby

774
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 1: number three, but is dreading this endless hamster wheel cycle

775
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 1: of it all. She said that you have recommended a nanny,

776
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 1: but how do you find a quality one? I will

777
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 1: go ahead and say that this is probably the most

778
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 1: common question we get on best of both worlds. We

779
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,240
Speaker 1: probably need to just like write up a guide or something.

780
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: But she says, we've lived in our area, had a

781
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: two career household for four years now. In that time period,

782
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,879
Speaker 1: we've gone through eight nanni's. Two of them they loved,

783
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,240
Speaker 1: but one moved away, the other had some health issues.

784
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: I think we pay well, give annual raises into your bonuses.

785
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: Interview processes similar to what you guys have talked about.

786
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: I've yet to you know, She's saying post COVID has

787
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: been really bad. We've gone through a lot of people

788
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 1: even trying using an agency, and some candidates from the

789
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 1: agency never showed up. She says she'd love to have

790
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: more help in the home, but some people have said

791
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 1: that they won't do any sort of housework. Do you

792
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 1: have any advice on this on hiring? Is this just

793
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 1: normal post COVID that it's really hard to find people.

794
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: So what advice do we have? All right, Sarah, what

795
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 1: do you have? So we went back and forth a

796
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 1: couple times because the first thing I wanted to know,

797
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: and this is completely anonymous, we haven't mentioned the ra

798
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 1: or anything. So I think we can actually give some

799
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: numbers here. I ask what are you paying? Because the

800
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 1: truth is, like, you have to make this job be

801
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: a job that someone would want, and you have to

802
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 1: compare it to other available jobs. You know, I think

803
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: about jobs that might be available at my hospital, like

804
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: a medical assistant, or that really don't require a lot

805
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 1: of years of training or education, that could be a

806
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: comparable option, like I try to get in the head

807
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 1: of like somebody, or maybe they might work for a school,

808
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: like or a daycare or at a preschool or something

809
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: like that. So you've got to pay comparable to that,

810
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 1: I think, And you have to have perks, have things,

811
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: because it really is an incredibly hard job caring for

812
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: somebody else's children. So I think figuring out ways that

813
00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 1: you can make that desirable. And when she told me

814
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 1: what she was paying, she said anywhere from fourteen dollars

815
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 1: an hour, but that was for like a high school student,

816
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: which I mean hiring a high school student. I mean,

817
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: I guess that's I don't think that's really what she meant,

818
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 1: and the people that were turning over, but like, that's

819
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: probably not going to be a real long term solution

820
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: for most people. Up to twenty two dollars an hour

821
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 1: for a seasoned provider who was also bringing her own

822
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: child to the job, So you know, in some ways,

823
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 1: I could see how that could be a negotiating factor.

824
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 1: If someone was allowed to bring their own baby, you

825
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: might be able to pay a little bit less, which

826
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 1: that doesn't seem unreasonable. And in fact, that person did

827
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 1: stay with her for more than a year and only

828
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 1: left because of a family situation. So I think that

829
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 1: this is a big part of it. What you offer.

830
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 1: In our household, we do pay completely on the books,

831
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: and the way it works is, I mean, we hire

832
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: ar nanny for more than full time hours and then

833
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: pay time and a half for all overtime hours. And

834
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 1: so the total salary I'm not going to give numbers

835
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 1: because that does violate privacy, but it's significantly more than

836
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,320
Speaker 1: our medical assistants make. It's significantly more than most preschooler

837
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 1: daycare teachers make and that position comes with, at least

838
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: at this juncture, having she's attained a lot of seniority,

839
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 1: having been with us for a long time, a good

840
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: amount of downtime and free time. Our children are in

841
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: school for all day unless there's a quarantine or something

842
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: like that, and we even do things like we always

843
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,399
Speaker 1: pay her a minimum of like fifty some hours every

844
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 1: single week, no matter how many hours she works. And

845
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 1: on a day like today, when I had a flexible morning,

846
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 1: I said, you don't have to come in until whenever

847
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: you feel like it, Like I don't care if you

848
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 1: come at noon or two or pick up the kids

849
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 1: because I was doing the drop off and the kids

850
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 1: all had camps, So like I don't feel a reason

851
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: to have her. I can make her job appealing in

852
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: those kind of ways when it works for me. Is

853
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 1: it a very significant investment of funds, Yes, it absolutely is.

854
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,720
Speaker 1: And I one hundred percent get that that's not feasible

855
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: for everyone. My poor sister. I mean, I don't mean

856
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,760
Speaker 1: poor isn't impoverished, but you know, she is a single parent,

857
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: and she doesn't have the resources we do, and she's

858
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: not able to do this. So I also understand that

859
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,720
Speaker 1: people listening to this might be very frustrated thinking, well, okay,

860
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: that's the only time way we can do it is

861
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: to pay like a lot of money. But that said,

862
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: probably at least half of the listeners do have the

863
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: ability to pay a lot of money. And if they

864
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,720
Speaker 1: need that and they have two big careers in their household,

865
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 1: then I think there are people that I know could

866
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 1: pay a lot that don't and then they complain about

867
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 1: why it doesn't work, and I think that's probably like

868
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 1: item number one. And then I just also mentioned like

869
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 1: other things that make the job good, like what I said, like,

870
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 1: you know, increase flexibility when it's available. Maybe it's some

871
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 1: sort of promised salary ladder, like you say, I promise

872
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: that five or ten percent raise after the first year,

873
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 1: you know, something significant or a PCO increased that you

874
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: give you know, we increase the number of days our

875
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 1: nanny head off after she worked for us for a

876
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 1: few years. And also the final thing, I will say,

877
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 1: this is going to be a long episode, but that's okay.

878
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 1: If somebody doesn't show up for an interview, that's the

879
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 1: best favor they ever did you because you didn't waste

880
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: your time hiring that person and having them be flaky

881
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,840
Speaker 1: later on. So honestly, I mean, i'd say, you know,

882
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 1: invite as many as you want for interviews, know that

883
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: some are not going to show up, but honestly, that's

884
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 1: the best gift you can get instant feedback. Yeah, this

885
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 1: time around. So we've mentioned we hired a new nanny

886
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: in April who started in May, and we went through

887
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:24,839
Speaker 1: an agency this time, and I know some agencies are

888
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 1: better than others. We used one that a former nanny

889
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: of ours. So I actually asked this lady she would

890
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: listed me as a reference because she was looking in

891
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 1: a different city and it was a national chain but

892
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 1: or agency or whatever that she I said, well, which

893
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: agencies have you worked with that you felt were the best?

894
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:44,720
Speaker 1: And so she told me that she had a positive

895
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 1: experience with this one. So I just called them up

896
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:51,839
Speaker 1: and went through it that way. It definitely call references,

897
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: have a conversation and ask about your pain points, like

898
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 1: if you want people to be doing lighthouse work and

899
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 1: like looking for ways to make the household better, ask

900
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: if they did that in their last job, because if

901
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: they didn't, they're not going to want to start. Like

902
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,879
Speaker 1: I mean, unless you've like really spelled it out like that.

903
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 1: That is part of the job, and these are the

904
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:15,879
Speaker 1: exact expectations, or if you have something that's particularly your thing,

905
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 1: like I, you know, as people might imagine, I like

906
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: people to be on time, and I think most people do.

907
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 1: But if it's really going to tick you off, if

908
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: people are like consistently ten minutes late, like, you want

909
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: to know that, right, because that's something that is going

910
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 1: to probably not a new habit they'll develop from you.

911
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: I mean, it probably happened in the past, so you

912
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: want to ask about that too. So make sure you

913
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: are asking about the things that you know would bug

914
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:45,279
Speaker 1: you and getting honest answers from people like that. I'm

915
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 1: echoing what Sarah said, pay in the professional range and

916
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:51,760
Speaker 1: then you will get professional people. Obviously, I hope anyone

917
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: listening to this is paying on the books, which involves

918
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 1: also then paying time and a half for over time,

919
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 1: and then give a lot of feedback. Like once people

920
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 1: are in the job, you want to make sure it's

921
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: a good working relationship, a constructive working relationship. And nobody

922
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: can read your mind, like your spouse can't read your mind,

923
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 1: your colleagues at work can't lead you read your mind.

924
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: Kids can't read your mind, and neither can anyone who

925
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,399
Speaker 1: works in your house. So make sure that you are

926
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: saying whatever it is that you need to say, and

927
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 1: hopefully that will make everything work better. So we hope

928
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,240
Speaker 1: this person who wrote in is able to find someone.

929
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:29,399
Speaker 1: Maybe she'll do some soul searching about what she can

930
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 1: offer or think about. This has been best of both worlds.

931
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 1: We've been talking mental load. We'll be back next week

932
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 1: with more on making work in life fit together. Thanks

933
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 1: for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox

934
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:48,839
Speaker 1: dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and

935
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.

936
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 1: This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please

937
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: join us next time for more on making work and

938
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 1: life work together. Other