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Speaker 1: Trust me.

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Speaker 2: Trust me.

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Speaker 1: I'm like a squat purse.

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Speaker 3: I've never lied to you.

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Speaker 4: I never lived.

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Speaker 3: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 3: don't welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 3: belief and the abuse of power from two daughters who've

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Speaker 3: actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc and I'm meging Elizabeth.

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Speaker 3: Today our guest is Anna LeBaron. She is the author

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Speaker 3: of a book called The Polygamist's Daughter because she is

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Speaker 3: you guessed it, a polygamist's daughter, but not just any polygamist.

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Speaker 3: Anna's father was Irvil LeBaron, leader of the fundamentalist Mormon

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Speaker 3: polygamist group called Church of the Lamb of God. I

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Speaker 3: think that's the shortened version of the actual name, but basically,

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Speaker 3: Irville had fifty children and thirteen wives. He has been

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Speaker 3: deemed the Mormon Manson because he ordered the killings of

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Speaker 3: more than twenty people from nineteen seventy two to nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighty one, possibly more than thirty. It's wild. Anna's going

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Speaker 3: to talk to us about growing up on the run

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Speaker 3: from the FBI without knowing why, how her mom left

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Speaker 3: her with strangers in Mexico at the age of nine,

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Speaker 3: how she was forced into child labor and feeling alone

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Speaker 3: and unwanted by the adult members of the cult.

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Speaker 5: So we're not going to get too deep into the

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Speaker 5: murder itself today because we wanted to focus on her

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Speaker 5: personal experiences. But she's also going to tell us about

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Speaker 5: how her dad, Irville, took a hit out on his brother,

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Speaker 5: a rival prophet, and then had a number of his

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Speaker 5: other enemies killed, including some murders that were committed in

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Speaker 5: his name after he died, which is incredible. Plus, we'll

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Speaker 5: talk about how therapy and amdr have helped Anna overcome

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Speaker 5: the mini layers of trauma she's experienced, how she got

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Speaker 5: out of the cult, and why it's crucial to find

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Speaker 5: a way to tell your story.

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Speaker 3: This is a heavy one, y'all, so I'm going to

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Speaker 3: give a serious trigger warning. There's a lot of child

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Speaker 3: abuse descriptions stuff happening here. We're going to talk about murder,

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Speaker 3: so be prepared going into the episode. We will get

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Speaker 3: into all of that very soon. It is quite a story.

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Speaker 3: It's pretty insane, Megan. You use the word incredible when

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Speaker 3: you were describing how he had killed, which after he's.

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Speaker 5: Dead, you're still having people murdered in your name is incredible.

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Speaker 3: It's just such a funny word to use because it

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Speaker 3: sounds positive, but we obviously don't mean it in a pot.

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Speaker 4: No. No, it's incredibly bad.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, incredibly bad, but impressive. Definitely. All right, So you

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Speaker 3: know the deal, Megan, tell me the cultiest thing that's

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Speaker 3: happened to you this week.

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Speaker 5: Well, the coltiest thing that's happened to me this week

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Speaker 5: is planning a family picture with my family who is

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Speaker 5: very religious as we all know, and kind.

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Speaker 4: Of being.

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Speaker 5: Peer pressured into wearing a really ugly outfit.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, what is the outfit?

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Speaker 4: It's just going to be like a long skirt type

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Speaker 4: of deal.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I literally cannot imagine you in a long skirt

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Speaker 3: like it seems absurd.

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Speaker 5: I literally only like skirts that are like a pair

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Speaker 5: of underwear level short.

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Speaker 4: It is so unfair.

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Speaker 3: What's your shirt situation going to be?

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Speaker 5: Oh, you know, I was thinking, just like totally free,

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Speaker 5: no shirt nipples.

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Speaker 3: I love that. I will be stoked.

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Speaker 4: It's a compromise. No, I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I'll probably wear a dress or something and the shirt

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Speaker 5: and skirt will be connected. But it's just a little

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Speaker 5: reminder of the little rules these groups have do.

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Speaker 3: Your parents dress like fundamentalists or just like very modest,

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Speaker 3: just really modest, like the Mormons, who I feel like,

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Speaker 3: I'm they've decided you're not supposed to call them Mormon anymore. Oh,

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Speaker 3: you're supposed to call them LDS. This happened like a

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Speaker 3: couple years ago or something. But I mean, I don't know, ma'am,

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Speaker 3: you're really gonna call it the Church of Jesus Christ

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Speaker 3: of Latter day Saints every time I want to talk

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Speaker 3: about Mormonism, I'm sorry, it's too long.

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Speaker 4: Ye's too young. Yeah, it's way too long.

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Speaker 3: Well, speaking of LDS people, I discovered this week a

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Speaker 3: hashtag called desnat, which stands for Desert Nation, which basically

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Speaker 3: is like a Mormon an LDS online community, and it's

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Speaker 3: kind of fucked up. I'm trying to piece it all

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Speaker 3: together right now. I've been reading about it, but it's

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Speaker 3: like a hashtag for Mormons to find each other online

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Speaker 3: who are very conservative and very like what's the word

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Speaker 3: that I want?

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Speaker 4: Like boring?

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Speaker 3: I wish it was boring. Actually it's like kind of

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Speaker 3: weirdly not boring. It's like a lot of memes about

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Speaker 3: being super into your profit and being really really strict

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Speaker 3: in your Mormonism and like hating on liberal Mormons, oh,

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Speaker 3: and hating on like the LGBTQ Mormon movement. And there

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Speaker 3: is a whole faction of people who use this hashtag

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Speaker 3: who are straight up alright Mormons. So basically, if anyone

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Speaker 3: doesn't know, Mormonism has a history of very serious racism. Basically,

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Speaker 3: black people were banned from the priestood until nineteen seventy

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Speaker 3: something that's so embarrassing, it's fucked up. The doctrine basically

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Speaker 3: said that black people were like it was a mark

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Speaker 3: of Cain or something, and oh, it was like a curse,

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Speaker 3: and so black people couldn't hold the priest food until

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Speaker 3: the seventies. And now you know, the mainstream church has

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Speaker 3: since totally denounce that and they're like, racism's bad. The

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Speaker 3: church wasn't fully restored yet until we let black people

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Speaker 3: back in. But there's this history here. So these DOESNAT people,

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Speaker 3: some of them, not all of them, but some of

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Speaker 3: them are saying like, no, that was correct. We want

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Speaker 3: pure Mormonism. We don't want LGBTQ people. A lot of

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Speaker 3: hating on LGBTQ people. There's ties with people who are at

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Speaker 3: the Capitol. Some of them are dez not. It's this

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Speaker 3: crazy movement online that it ranges from just like being

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Speaker 3: very into purity and dressing modestly all the way to

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Speaker 3: scary stuff about the ways that you'll defend your profit. It's,

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Speaker 3: oh yeah, it's crazy, and it's not condoned by the

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Speaker 3: church in any way. It has nothing to do with

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Speaker 3: the official church. It's just like a group of people

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Speaker 3: online who've decided that they should forge a community together.

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Speaker 3: But it's a lot of like weird like Mormon memes,

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Speaker 3: like trying to own liberal Mormons.

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Speaker 5: I'm thinking maybe they're comedy writers, might need some work,

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Speaker 5: but maybe not.

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Speaker 3: And it's a lot of women like we love our

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Speaker 3: place in the home, like this is our calling from

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Speaker 3: God to be mothers.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: Oh, here's one Brigham Young who we'll talk about later. Actually,

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Speaker 3: Brigham Young was the second prophet of the Church of

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Speaker 3: Jesus Christ of Flaturday Saints, after Joseph Smith, who was

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Speaker 3: a polygamist. Both of them were. Brigham Young is in

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Speaker 3: the celestial kingdom with his forty seven plus stunningly beautiful,

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Speaker 3: perfected wives, and you're stuck in provo calling him racist

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Speaker 3: in the hopes of earning enough woke credits to convince

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Speaker 3: some sea cow to send you news you are not

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Speaker 3: his superior. That is a does not tweet wow. Yikes.

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Speaker 3: And then instead of like red pill, blue pill, all

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Speaker 3: right stuff, they're saying vitamin pill because there's something in

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Speaker 3: Mormon culture about like getting healthy and taking your vitamins.

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Speaker 3: So the people are taking the vitamin pill. I don't know,

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Speaker 3: it's weird. There have been LGBTQ people who say they

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Speaker 3: don't feel safe because this community is like targeting them online,

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Speaker 3: and it's the whole thing. I want to mitigate that

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Speaker 3: by saying a lot of my family members are still

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Speaker 3: LDS and they're really great, and this is not like

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Speaker 3: an LDS church thing. This is like a very specific

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Speaker 3: subgroup online. Yeah, but anyway, I am starting to think

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Speaker 3: I need to quit Twitter.

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Speaker 5: I don't understand how anyone can go on it.

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Speaker 4: It is the sewer. It is.

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Speaker 3: It's crazy. Like I saw Jeffree Starr. You know, Jeffree

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Speaker 3: Star is a fucked up guy. Apparently. I don't know

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Speaker 3: the extent of the whole YouTube drama world at all,

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Speaker 3: but he's kind of fucked up. But still I like

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Speaker 3: saw that he got in a car accident, and there

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Speaker 3: were tweets with like thousands of likes basically celebrating the

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Speaker 3: idea of him dying, which I'm like, can we not

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Speaker 3: even if someone is problematic, can we not tweet about

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Speaker 3: wanting their death and people being like so happy to

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Speaker 3: be bullying Chrissy Teagan because she's rich. I don't know,

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Speaker 3: It's just like, guys, there are human beings on the

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Speaker 3: other end, Like, wishing for death is not cool, it's

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Speaker 3: not funny.

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Speaker 5: Well, I mean, I guess that's just a perfect example

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Speaker 5: of like another cult, you know, is being on your

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Speaker 5: computer and liking something you would never like in real life.

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Speaker 3: Or Yeah, it's starting to actually really really depress me.

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Speaker 3: I can't. I just want everyone to see each other's you,

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Speaker 3: madam me.

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Speaker 5: Man remember in like Mean Girls when she's like I

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Speaker 5: just want rainbows and puppies and then that guy's like.

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Speaker 4: She doesn't even go here.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, man, Fuck Twitter. I think I'm done.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna go live in the woods.

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Speaker 4: I'm kind of getting there too.

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Speaker 1: It's Wood's time.

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Speaker 3: Should we start a commune?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 3: That would be the ultimate irony. Please, I have to

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Speaker 3: escape the social media cult. Let's go start a commune

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Speaker 3: in the woods. All right, Well I hate it all Yeah,

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Speaker 3: me too, But I'm excited to see a photo of

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Speaker 3: you in a long dress. Yeah, you're honest.

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Speaker 4: I'll get you, guys.

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Speaker 5: I'll get you, guys want I'll let you tweet it

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Speaker 5: out into the the sphere of hell.

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Speaker 3: Which you are not on. Good for you, man, for you.

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Speaker 4: I just don't need it in my life.

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Speaker 3: Literally, canny figure out to open it. I would take

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Speaker 3: that any date. Yeah, I'm too good at technolo. It's

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Speaker 3: bad for my mental health. Well, let's get into Anna's

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Speaker 3: experience and talk to her, because she's really great and she,

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Speaker 3: in my opinion, could be the next Brene Brown.

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Speaker 4: Ooo.

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Speaker 5: Let's go.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: Before we get into the interview with Anna, I'm just

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Speaker 3: going to get the murder talk out of the way

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Speaker 3: here because it's complicated and we want to be able

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Speaker 3: to focus on her experience. But there is some context

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Speaker 3: that kind of matters a little bit. So here's an overview. So,

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Speaker 3: from nineteen seventy two to nineteen eighty one, Ervia le

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Speaker 3: Baron ordered a few of his followers to kill a

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Speaker 3: number of people, starting with his own brother Joel, who

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Speaker 3: was his rival prophet and basically moving on to anyone

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Speaker 3: he felt threatened by. His tenth wife, Vonda White, carried

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Speaker 3: out several of the murders. One killing of a leader

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Speaker 3: of a rival fundamentalist group named Rulan Allred was committed

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Speaker 3: by le Baron's thirteenth wife, Rina Chenowith and another woman

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Speaker 3: named Ramona Marston. Chennawick later actually wrote a book about

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Speaker 3: it called Blood Covenant. So here's a little context for

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Speaker 3: how he justified the murders. The second LDS prophet, Brigham

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Speaker 3: Young in the late nineteenth century, put forth the doctrine

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Speaker 3: called blood atonement. Blood atonement basically means that if someone

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Speaker 3: has committed a bad enough sin that they cannot be

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Speaker 3: forgiven from the atonement of Jesus alone, they should be

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Speaker 3: killed in a way that spills the sinner's blood upon

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Speaker 3: the ground as a sacrificial offering. So to be clear,

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Speaker 3: the mainstream LDIS church in no way believes this, and

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Speaker 3: they've denied the existence of the doctrine for I think

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Speaker 3: like over a century, but many polygamist offshoots that the

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Speaker 3: church followed Brigham Young's teaching specifically. So this was Rville's

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Speaker 3: sneaky little way of justifying killing anyone who got in

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Speaker 3: his way. We didn't get to get too deep into

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Speaker 3: this with Anna, but it's a pretty wild little doctrine there,

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Speaker 3: blood atonement. So in nineteen seventy nine, le Baron was

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Speaker 3: arrested and extradited to the United States. He was rested

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Speaker 3: in Mexico because they had a settlement in Mexico, and

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Speaker 3: he was convicted of having ordered Alrid's death, so he

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Speaker 3: died a year later. While he was in prison, he

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Speaker 3: wrote a four hundred page text called the Book of

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Speaker 3: the New Covenants, which included a commandment to kill a

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Speaker 3: number of disobedient church members, and it basically was a

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Speaker 3: hit list. He wrote a hitlist in prison under the

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Speaker 3: pretext of it being like the New Bible or whatever.

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Speaker 3: So cut to June twenty seventh, nineteen eighty eight, four

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Speaker 3: o'clock PM, three different hits were carried out simultaneously from

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Speaker 3: this list, even though le Baron had already been dead

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Speaker 3: for years. In a tragic and horrifying event called the

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Speaker 3: four o'clock murders, seven different people murdered four people in

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Speaker 3: three different places, all at the exact same time, and

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Speaker 3: two of the victims were Leberon's own grandsons, and one

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Speaker 3: of the victims was an eight year old girl who

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Speaker 3: just happened to be with her dad when he got killed.

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Speaker 3: So we will get into how Anna was personally impacted

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Speaker 3: by the four o'clock murders later on. It's very, very,

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Speaker 3: very sad. And then also before we get into it,

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Speaker 3: I just want to make a quick note here that

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Speaker 3: the words Mormon LeBaron in Mexico might all sound familiar

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Speaker 3: together because there was a new story that came out

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Speaker 3: in twenty nineteen about a horrific murder of nine Mormon

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Speaker 3: women and children, some of whom had the last name Leberon,

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Speaker 3: who were shot and burned to death in their cars

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Speaker 3: by a rug cartel in Mexico. And it is complicated,

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Speaker 3: but basically those Lebarons had relatives who were a part

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Speaker 3: of Anna's enormous family, but they were not members of

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Speaker 3: Ervia LeBaron's church specifically. That story is crazy, and the

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Speaker 3: conflict with the cartels near the Colonial le Baron is

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Speaker 3: now over a decade in the making, but it's not

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Speaker 3: related to Anna or Rvil LeBaron specifically, So we will

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Speaker 3: get into that another day. Now, let's talk to Anna.

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Speaker 3: Welcome Anna le Baron. Thank you so much for coming.

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Speaker 1: On, Thank you for having me. I'm so excited about

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Speaker 1: being here and cannot wait to have this discussion the same.

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Speaker 3: Oh, there's just so much here. It's it's such a

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Speaker 3: wild story, and you are right in the middle of

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Speaker 3: all of this craziness. Okay, So to give people some

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Speaker 3: context for what on earth this group was, some of

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Speaker 3: our listeners might be familiar with, for example, the FLDS,

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Speaker 3: which is a totally different Mormon fundamentalist offshoot group, but

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Speaker 3: this is an entirely different group. Can you give us

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Speaker 3: like a little bit of the broad strokes of the

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Speaker 3: history and how Ervill became the prophet?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yes, my dad was known as the Mormon Manson

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Speaker 1: during the seventies and the eighties because of the ways

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Speaker 1: that he would order hits on some of his rivals,

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Speaker 1: other polygamous prophets, and people who escaped his cult. So

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Speaker 1: that's the biggest broadest brushstroke that I can think of.

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Speaker 1: And the way that all came about was when the

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Speaker 1: Modern Day Church back in the eighteen nineties and early

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Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds disavowed polygamy. My grandfather and his wives and

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Speaker 1: children moved to Mexico and founded a colony down there

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Speaker 1: called the Laberon Colony. And when my grandfather died, the

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Speaker 1: oldest male son was the one who became the new prophet,

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Speaker 1: and my father was not the oldest male, so he

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Speaker 1: did not become the prophet. But my father had this

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Speaker 1: taste for power and was pretty much co leading with

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Speaker 1: his oldest brother, and that worked for a while, but

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Speaker 1: it was never enough for my father to be in

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Speaker 1: second place, and there was a big falling out, a disagreement,

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Speaker 1: and then everybody chose sides. You know, they had quite

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Speaker 1: a following down there. People had to choose sides, and

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Speaker 1: then they split, and that split, and him being the

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Speaker 1: leader of his own also wasn't enough. He was power

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Speaker 1: hungry and wanted the people who were following his brother

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Speaker 1: who follow him. So he ordered a hit on his brother,

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Speaker 1: thinking that like, that's how you know he was not

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Speaker 1: mentally well, because a rationally minded person would have known,

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Speaker 1: I go and kill their profit. That's not going to

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Speaker 1: endear them to me, right, And so that began a

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Speaker 1: decades long series of murders that my dad ordered on

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Speaker 1: people who were dared to leave his cult, people who

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Speaker 1: did not obey his orders, people who defied him, anybody

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Speaker 1: who threatened to go to the police, anybody that tried

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Speaker 1: to gain a little bit of power by threatening to

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Speaker 1: go to the police. They were killed other prophets of

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Speaker 1: other polygamist sects because my father was the One mighty

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Speaker 1: and strong. That's a Mormon phrase and the sacred texts

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Speaker 1: of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

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Speaker 1: The One mighty and Strong is what my dad considered

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Speaker 1: himself to be, and so that meant that other polygamist

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Speaker 1: sects that had their own profit who they thought was

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Speaker 1: the one mighty and strong in my father's mind, that

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Speaker 1: meant that they were all false prophets, because obviously he

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Speaker 1: was the one, and so he ordered hits on some

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Speaker 1: of them. He was mentally unstable, and then everything resulted

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Speaker 1: from that. Along with the very difficult doctrines that were

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Speaker 1: taught by the original leaders of the Church of Jesus

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Speaker 1: Christ to the latterday Saints, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young,

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of very extreme teachings that my

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Speaker 1: dad followed, and my dad took him to a new level.

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Speaker 1: For sure.

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Speaker 3: What was your life like when you were a kid, like,

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Speaker 3: how often were you actually interacting with your father? What

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Speaker 3: did you believe? Just tell us about that.

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Speaker 1: Well, as a child, I did not even get to

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Speaker 1: meet my father until I was nine years old. Oh.

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Speaker 1: When I was born, it was at the height of

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Speaker 1: the disagreement between his brother and all the people that

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Speaker 1: followed or chose different ones. I was nine months old

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Speaker 1: when everybody from my father's side left the Lebaran colony,

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Speaker 1: and I was three years old when he had his

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Speaker 1: brother killed. I began life on the run from the

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Speaker 1: law starting at age three. I've never known a life

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Speaker 1: free from that fear. When I was born and the

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Speaker 1: people were in disagreement, you know, all the adults were

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Speaker 1: of choosing sides, and can you imagine the level of

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Speaker 1: stress that they were under with that big division that

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Speaker 1: happened and then a bunch of people had to leave.

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Speaker 1: I was nine months old when that happened. And so

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Speaker 1: my entire lived life has been one of experiencing anxiety

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Speaker 1: because even as a child, you absorbed the emotions and

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Speaker 1: things that are happening with among the adults around you,

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Speaker 1: and so there was a high level of stress, high

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Speaker 1: level of anxiety and fear because it took a lot

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Speaker 1: of fear mongering in order to convince all these people

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Speaker 1: to go with my dad and to convince them that,

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Speaker 1: you know, Joel was the evil prophet and the evil

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Speaker 1: one that had to be vanquished. So I've just never

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Speaker 1: known a life that didn't have that as part of it.

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Speaker 1: So we lived on the run from the law. Once

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Speaker 1: people started dying, the FBI was after my father. The

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00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,040
Speaker 1: Mexican police were after my father, both in the United

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Speaker 1: States and in Mexico. We moved back and forth. Were

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Speaker 1: quite a bit people in the cult that had committed

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Speaker 1: the crimes, committed the murders. They were wanted as well,

355
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Speaker 1: and people came and left in the middle of the night.

356
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Speaker 1: Usually two or more of the wives shared a house.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes there was up to twenty kids running around a

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Speaker 1: regular just regular size house. So I began living life

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Speaker 1: on the run from the law, and that was my

360
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Speaker 1: lived experience. My father, if he was ever around, I

361
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Speaker 1: didn't know, because they would all the ones who are

362
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,120
Speaker 1: wanted came and went in the middle of the night.

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Speaker 1: You would go to bed at night, and in the

364
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Speaker 1: morning when you woke up, there would be different people

365
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,480
Speaker 1: who had arrived in the middle of the night or

366
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Speaker 1: people who had left in the middle of the night.

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Speaker 1: I never met my father until I was nine years old.

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Speaker 3: And when you finally met him, what did you think?

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Speaker 3: Who was he to you?

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Speaker 1: I knew he was my father. You know, we were

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Speaker 1: told he was coming. You know, we knew what to expect,

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Speaker 1: you know, once he came in. I mean he was

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Speaker 1: a very tall man. He was six feet four inches tall,

374
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Speaker 1: had big, broad shoulders, and a big forehead, you know,

375
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Speaker 1: receding hairline. I mean I remember seeing him for the

376
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Speaker 1: very first time, and I was able to interact with

377
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,320
Speaker 1: him twice during that visit. You know. I talked about

378
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,560
Speaker 1: those experiences of interacting with him the two times that

379
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,160
Speaker 1: I have memories of that in my book. At the time,

380
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,920
Speaker 1: they were special just because I knew it was my father.

381
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Speaker 1: I didn't ever grow up thinking I don't have a father.

382
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,880
Speaker 1: I knew I had a father, just I had never

383
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,399
Speaker 1: seen him before in my life. So meeting him at

384
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Speaker 1: nine and then that's the first and last time, that

385
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,439
Speaker 1: was something that in my grown up years and in

386
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,159
Speaker 1: my healing journey, I've had to wrestle with the effects

387
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Speaker 1: of growing up fatherless.

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Speaker 3: Did you know that he had ordered the murder of

389
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Speaker 3: jewel or was that kept from you?

390
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,399
Speaker 1: No, that was kept from the littler. Kids didn't know

391
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:04,240
Speaker 1: I was in a cult. I didn't know that people

392
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:08,240
Speaker 1: were dead or dying around me. Those things weren't talked

393
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,000
Speaker 1: about with the kids for the most part. There's a

394
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,760
Speaker 1: few exceptions to that, but for the most part, the

395
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:15,560
Speaker 1: kids didn't know.

396
00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:17,440
Speaker 3: Why did you think that you were on the run?

397
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:18,240
Speaker 3: What did they tell you?

398
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,439
Speaker 1: We were taught that we were being persecuted because we

399
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:29,840
Speaker 1: were God's chosen people. That sounds familiar. Yeah, we were

400
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,000
Speaker 1: God's chosen people. And I was a celestial child because

401
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,080
Speaker 1: I was born of the prophet Urvile Baron, and so

402
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,000
Speaker 1: I knew I was a celestial child, and that was

403
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,600
Speaker 1: the end of that. I was special, And I just

404
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,240
Speaker 1: wish that that, you know, being a celestial child would

405
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,879
Speaker 1: have meant extra special treatment for the children of urvi

406
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,320
Speaker 1: Le Baron, But that is not how it panned out.

407
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:59,919
Speaker 1: It was quite the opposite. We were mistreated, abused, neglected,

408
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,960
Speaker 1: an abandon in certain cases, malnourished, and didn't get the

409
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,120
Speaker 1: doctor in hospital and care that we needed. We were

410
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 1: used as slave labor. I know that that's very common

411
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,000
Speaker 1: in polygamous families where the children are just put to

412
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:20,880
Speaker 1: work as free labor. I started working to bring income

413
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,200
Speaker 1: into the family when I was nine years old.

414
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,119
Speaker 3: Nine years old, doing what and how.

415
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,160
Speaker 1: We lived in Mexico at the time, and that's during

416
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,199
Speaker 1: the time when I met my father. We lived in

417
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,000
Speaker 1: Mexico and we lived in a two story apartment I

418
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 1: can't remember. The lady downstairs had a little bit of

419
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,480
Speaker 1: discretionary income, and I was put to work helping doing

420
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,200
Speaker 1: chores around her house, sweeping, mopping, helping with the cooking,

421
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:48,919
Speaker 1: although we weren't allowed to eat food. I would do

422
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 1: her laundry. So I would wash the clothes on a

423
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,760
Speaker 1: just a lego regular washboard and then have to cart

424
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,680
Speaker 1: them up the stairs to the roof where we had,

425
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,360
Speaker 1: oh my goodness, clotheslines that you could hang the clothes up,

426
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:08,119
Speaker 1: so ringing them out my hand, washing, rinsing, then carting

427
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,919
Speaker 1: it all upstairs, that heavy fabric, that's clothing that's heavy

428
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 1: when it's wet, having to cart it upstairs to hang

429
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 1: them up on the line and then bring it down

430
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 1: when it was dry. And in addition to that, the

431
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 1: people that we were left with because I was abandoned

432
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 1: in Mexico with these cult members that I did not

433
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,719
Speaker 1: know at all. They would make cakes, slice it up,

434
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 1: put it on a plate, and then I would go

435
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 1: door to door with just a cake on a plate,

436
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,680
Speaker 1: go door to door in Mexico selling cake slices.

437
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 6: And I'm a little American blonde girl nine years old

438
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 6: in the heart of Mexico going door to door buy myself,

439
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 6: selling cake slices, and then having to bring the money

440
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 6: home by myself.

441
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 1: How did they know I wasn't going to get lost?

442
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,439
Speaker 1: They didn't. How did they know I wasn't going to

443
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 1: get kidnapped, raped, beaten? Who knows, robbed?

444
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 3: I'm nice, yeah yeah.

445
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,880
Speaker 4: Run over by a car like anything?

446
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:08,920
Speaker 3: Yeah? Anything? Yeah.

447
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 1: So I mean, this little kid, And then you know,

448
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 1: we would paint rocks, and then I was going door

449
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 1: to door selling painted rocks and calling them paperweights. Like

450
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:24,920
Speaker 1: all of this stuff was just incredibly damaging and harmful

451
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 1: to a young child. And so this was all happening,

452
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 1: and at the same time, we were getting moved around

453
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 1: back and forth. They were like safe houses, I guess

454
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 1: in Mexico. So we would get moved back and forth

455
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,680
Speaker 1: and shuffled around because nobody really wanted us. We were

456
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 1: my mom was in Denver working.

457
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 3: And who is us?

458
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:44,120
Speaker 1: My mom's children?

459
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 3: How many children?

460
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 1: Like?

461
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 3: Who is us? How many kids? And was your mom

462
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:48,239
Speaker 3: with you at all?

463
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 1: No, my mom had driven us to Mexico because of

464
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: some revelation that my father had abandoned us with these

465
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 1: weird new converts to my father's religion and left to

466
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: go back. And I'm nine and I have a younger

467
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 1: brother and another sister that's a little bit older than me,

468
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 1: among others that were just left there, and they would

469
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 1: shuffle us back and forth. Nobody wanted us. There were

470
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 1: a couple of different cities that were kind of nearby.

471
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,439
Speaker 1: At one point they put me on a bus, like

472
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 1: here's some pesos. Go get on the bus and go

473
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 1: to the next city by myself. And so because I

474
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 1: know directions, it's like I'm good with directions. Thank god,

475
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 1: thank god I was born. You know, some people are

476
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 1: just really good with directions and some people aren't. We

477
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 1: all have different things that were good at. That was

478
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 1: one that I was good at, thank god. They were like, here,

479
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 1: take these paesels, get on the bus and go to

480
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 1: the other city. So I go and take the bus ride,

481
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 1: get to the other city, get off the bus, make

482
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: the walk down to the place where the other house was.

483
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 1: I get there and they're like, why are you here.

484
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 1: You're not supposed to be here.

485
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 4: Ah.

486
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: I'm like, they told me to come here. No, you're

487
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 1: not supposed to be here. Here's some pace, so go

488
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 1: get back on the bus and go back. No, yes, yes,

489
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 1: I'm telling you. And then I get to the house.

490
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: I get back there and they're like, what are you

491
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,199
Speaker 1: doing here? And I was accused of like spending the

492
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,679
Speaker 1: money on something and not getting to the bus, getting

493
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: on the bus, and I'm like, oh my god, No,

494
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: I went there and they told me to come back,

495
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: and they said, no, no, no, you're supposed to be

496
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 1: over there. Here's some money. Go get on the bus

497
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: and go back and tell them they can't send you

498
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 1: back here. Oh my god, I'm nine years old. Nine. Wow,

499
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 1: I'm still salty about it.

500
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 4: Terrible.

501
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:41,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm salty on your behalf. That's insane. Nine year

502
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 3: olds are tiny, tiny babies. Like that is so wild. Yes,

503
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 3: if you put me on a bus at nine years old,

504
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 3: I would have ended up starving in the desert like

505
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 3: I would have had like nine year olds know nothing.

506
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 3: Thank goodness, you at least could get there, and.

507
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 1: You just felt so unwanted and like you were a

508
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: noose and a bother to everyone. You were shamed and humiliated.

509
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 1: You know, you're nine years old and the person you're

510
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: living with is still in a monogamous relationship with her husband,

511
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 1: because that didn't last very long once you converted, that

512
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: didn't last long. But he was being promised me, like

513
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: my dad was promising me to him when I was

514
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: old enough to marry off, which was right about age fourteen,

515
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: so I was a few years away from that. The

516
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,719
Speaker 1: men would talk about it with us as children, like

517
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: I'm a nine year old and he's like, let's talk

518
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: about love.

519
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 3: No, yes, I tell you, Oh No.

520
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:46,120
Speaker 1: I was never raped, but many, many of my siblings were.

521
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: You know, I'm grateful that that wasn't my experience, but

522
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: I have walked with my siblings who that was their

523
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 1: lived experience. And there was just no supervision there because

524
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: we were a very closed, very secretive group. It was

525
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 1: ripe for abuse, right for every kind of abuse you're

526
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 1: imagining and even some that you're going to even thinking,

527
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: emotional abuse, mental abuse, verbal abuse, psychological abuse, sexual abuse,

528
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: physical abuse. So those are been the hardest part is

529
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 1: the healing part. Healing isn't something that just happens on

530
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: its own. Healing is something that you pursue. You know.

531
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: One of my favorite authors is Brene Brown, So I

532
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: talk about her a lot and I quote her a lot.

533
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: She was the one who helped me quite a bit

534
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 1: to overcome the shame that I experienced about being Urba

535
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: le baron's daughter. And it was reading her book in

536
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: twenty thirteen that really allowed me to write. Because I

537
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: started writing my book in January of twenty fourteen. Her

538
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: book helped me to let go of that shame and

539
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 1: be able to tell my story with the level of

540
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 1: vulnerability that I wasn't capable of prior to reading her book.

541
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 3: Oh that's cool, amazing. How did you end up reunited

542
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 3: with your mother after this period where you were all alone?

543
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,439
Speaker 1: Well, we were shuffled around all over Mexico and I

544
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: eventually ended up staying with my half sister in Mexico

545
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: in a beach house. Her name was Ramona. She was

546
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 1: my mother's daughter, but from my mom's previous marriage. But

547
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: because she was my mother's oldest daughter, you guys may

548
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: be familiar with all this, but in polygamus families, where

549
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: they're just big, huge families, older girls end up taking

550
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: care of younger siblings. And I was my mother's tenth child,

551
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: so I ended up having very maternal attachment feelings for Ramona.

552
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: And I ended up with Ramona in a beach house

553
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: in Mexico. She was in a safe house because of

554
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: some things that she had done, and she was hiding

555
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: from the law too.

556
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:57,959
Speaker 3: Can you talk about that at all or no?

557
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 1: She and my dad's other wife were the two people

558
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: who went and killed Rulin Alrid. Wow.

559
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 3: Oh wow.

560
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: So both of them were in hiding in Mexico during

561
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: when I was nine, I went to go live with

562
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: my sister. She had just had a baby, her third,

563
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 1: So I was kind of sent there to help her

564
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: because you know, when you're nine, you're big enough to

565
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: carry a baby around, you know. So I was her

566
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: helper and ended up being just a salve to my

567
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: heart because I had been so long separated from my mom.

568
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: Months and months and months had passed. I turned ten

569
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: when we lived there, and I know that because my sister,

570
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: we didn't have an oven. We just had a little

571
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: stove top. So she made me a pancake cake. She

572
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: stacked up ten pancakes for my birthday and you know,

573
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: put butter and syrup on them, which was a big,

574
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: big expense that we did not usually have money for.

575
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: So I recognized how special it was that we had

576
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: a syrup, you know.

577
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 4: Wow.

578
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: And so she made me a pancake cake, and I

579
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: had my tenth birthday there. And then at some point

580
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: I was just on the porch one day, one of

581
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: my dad's wives who drove an orange pickup truck with

582
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: a camper on the back. Because I lived with her

583
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: for part of the time, so I knew that I

584
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: recognized the truck. So I lived with her for part

585
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: of the time. It was in Mexico. Again, we were

586
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: shuffled around so many times, and I remember seeing that

587
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: pickup truck come through the gate and then start coming

588
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: down the long driveway all potholes and everything, so it

589
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: was going really slow, and I knew that she was

590
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: coming and that that was her truck. And then out

591
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: of the passenger side door, the door opens and my

592
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: mom gets out and starts running to me, and I'm

593
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: just on the porch, stunned and can't believe what my

594
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: eyes are seeing that it's my mom, and you know,

595
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: I'm sobbing. She's crying. I have a lot of thick

596
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: and because the people that I was living with in Mexico,

597
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: they didn't want to have to brush it out. So

598
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: somebody took just a pair of scissors and chopped it

599
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: all off, I mean just short, so because it's so thick,

600
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: it just spiked out, you know. And so I just

601
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 1: had this head of spiky hair because nobody wanted to

602
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: take care of it. You know, that's just how neglected

603
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: we were. We'll chop all your hair off.

604
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 3: It sounds like a cartoon of how a child would

605
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 3: be treated in an evil stepmother's residence. You know, like

606
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 3: you're forced to work as a young child, they cut

607
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 3: off your hair, you're abandoned and left with no I

608
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 3: mean it's just like an absolute, so extreme, an extreme

609
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 3: version of a traumatic childhood.

610
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: My mom is, you know, sobbing her eyeballs out, running

611
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: her fingers through my short, short hair, you know, and

612
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 1: she knows like she's sobbing and saying and it's about

613
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: my hair. She's crying about my hair. But as a

614
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: grown woman, I know now that I have kids. That

615
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: she was crying about a whole lot more than just

616
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: my hair. But that's the only thing that she would

617
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: be allowed to cry about. In that setting, you weren't

618
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 1: allowed to have emotions that didn't fall in line with

619
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: what was happening around you, And so she could cry

620
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: about my hair that not anything else. When I wrote

621
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: my book, she was very worried. She was still alive.

622
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: She's not anymore, but she was still alive when I

623
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,719
Speaker 1: started writing the book, and she was part of a

624
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: different polygamoust group by that time. After my father's disbanded

625
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: in the nineties, she became part of a different one. Wow.

626
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: And so when I started writing my book, she was

627
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: very concerned about how I was going to portray her.

628
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: And I had to just say, Mom, I'm not here

629
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: to disrespect you or dishonor you in any way. All

630
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: I want is to tell my story. So I did.

631
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 1: It was very judicious in what I told and how

632
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: I told it, and as much as I possibly could,

633
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: I did not tell other people's stories, even my mom's,

634
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: you know, when it was needed for context, I did,

635
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: you know, talk about some things and add information for

636
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: the reader. But I knew my mom did not know

637
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: many of the things that happened to me growing up.

638
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: Even in irregular, normal household, parents don't always know the

639
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: difficult things that happened to their children until much later,

640
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 1: usually grown ups getting therapy. Finally, go, mom, this thing

641
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: happened to me. You know, so even in normal household,

642
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: it wasn't that can happen in any kind of family.

643
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: But because of the extreme way that we grew up,

644
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: with us being separated from our mom so much, she

645
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: had no idea. And then I ran away from home

646
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: when I was thirteen, so she really had no idea.

647
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: So when I finished writing the manuscript of my book

648
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 1: and I told her I would do this, I printed

649
00:33:58,280 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: out a copy the one that I submitted to the

650
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: publisher for editing, and I got on a plane and

651
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: went to where she lived and spent a week with

652
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: her and read it to her out loud, so that

653
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: we would have a chance together to process everything that

654
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 1: she was going to find out that happened to me.

655
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: I knew it would break her heart to know how

656
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 1: much I suffered. She had been living in denial about

657
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: the amount of suffering that her choices inflicted on her

658
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: children and family. But once it's there in black and white,

659
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 1: you can't deny it anymore. And it really did break

660
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: her heart. She sobbed and sobbed, and I cried and

661
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: cried and cried. But just experiencing her grief over my

662
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: suffering was a comfort to me, even though at the

663
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: same time she's still part of another polygamous cult.

664
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 3: Which cult did she join.

665
00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: She joined the Harmston Group. So she's in this cult

666
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: and she's grieving, you know, but she still believes in

667
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: this religion that devastated her children's lives. That's the part

668
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,359
Speaker 1: that I had to compartmentalize while I was with her

669
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: and just say, I can't fix this, but what I

670
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: can do is kindly, gently, with all compassion in my heart,

671
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: show my mom in black and white with my very word.

672
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: I read the book out loud to her the ways

673
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 1: that I my life was so devastated by her choices,

674
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 1: and she couldn't be in denial about it anymore. There

675
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,479
Speaker 1: were times when I would be reading and she would

676
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: just stop me and say, on a Cadura, because that's

677
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: my middle You know, you always know what you're in

678
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: trouble when your mom uses your middle name on Akadura,

679
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: Did that really happen to you? Over and over like, Mom,

680
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: I'm not making this up, Like you can't make this up.

681
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: And it just baffled her that her children suffered so

682
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:10,760
Speaker 1: much because she was in such denial her whole life.

683
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: The only way she could manage is to be in

684
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: denial about her choices and how they affected her children.

685
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: And here she had to face it. You know, I

686
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: had been through so many years of therapy and had

687
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: gone on such a healing journey that I didn't want

688
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: my mom to be there suffering with grief without me

689
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: there to comfort her with my very presence, that she

690
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: could see with her own eyes that I'm grown and

691
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 1: healed and whole, as wholehearted as I possibly can be.

692
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: That's what Brene Brown calls its wholeheartedness. And it was

693
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 1: that wholeheartedness in me that allowed me to go and

694
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: do that. It was a mission of mercy. Really, I

695
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 1: didn't want my book to show up on my mom's

696
00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: doorstep and then she's sitting there by herself, this broken

697
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 1: hearted alone. I did not want that at all. I

698
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: had originally thought I would wait till she passed to

699
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: publish the book, but she didn't pass until twenty nineteen,

700
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: so it would have been a lot more years. Wow.

701
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 3: Well, I'm sorry to hear that she passed.

702
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: I got to give the eulogy at her funeral, and

703
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 1: I was able to do it in a really kind

704
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 1: way that was helpful to not just a family, but

705
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: not dishonoring of my mother.

706
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 5: Did she grow up kind of in the same way

707
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 5: or how did she find your father?

708
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 1: No, my mother was raised in the modern day Church

709
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. So I guess

710
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: that's a really good thing to differentiate between the modern

711
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 1: day Church of Jesus Christ of latterday Saints, that's what

712
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: they want to be called, and then the fundamentalist Mormons,

713
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: those who believe the fundamentals of Joseph Smith Brigham Young's teachings,

714
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 1: and that's what they want to be called. So, just

715
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: out of respect for everyone, I like to use the

716
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: name that that's what they want to be called. And

717
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 1: so my mom was raised in the modern day Church

718
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 1: of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, and my father's

719
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: family goes all the way back to a man named

720
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 1: Benjamin F. Johnson who was the spiritually adopted son of

721
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: Joseph Smith. So I'm a first generation monogamous person. My

722
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 1: great great great grandfather, I believe, was a man named

723
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 1: Benjamin F. Johnson who was the spiritually adopted son of

724
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: Joseph Smith. So you know that Joseph Smith taught this

725
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: spiritual you know marriage or plural marriage, celestial marriage, lots

726
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,399
Speaker 1: of names for it, where you could have more than

727
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: one wife, and that was a tradition, a faith practice

728
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 1: that they had. But they also had this thing called

729
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: the spiritual law of adoption where you could adopt people

730
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 1: into your family and that meant they were family, just

731
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 1: like you marry somebody and you have a spiritual ceremony

732
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: and they're your wife or your husband. Even if you

733
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: have more than one wife already, you could have these

734
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 1: ceremonies that you can spiritually adopt someone and they're a

735
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: part of your family. Now, my grandfather was the spiritually

736
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 1: adopted son of Joseph Smith.

737
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 3: So but it was a different branch off from like

738
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 3: the Jeff's people. Somehow somewhere along the way they like

739
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 3: separate branches.

740
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: There's so many of those strands and branches that came

741
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 1: out of that. But I think there's like five main

742
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: ones and then they all branch out from those. I've

743
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 1: seen somebody created this graphic on the Internet and I

744
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: looked at that. I was like, oh my gosh, this

745
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,799
Speaker 1: is so convoluted. Where they described where everybody came from,

746
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 1: and which who got their prophecy, and whose prophet was

747
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: the thing, and how did they get their you know,

748
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: lineage and all of that. It was like, oh my god,

749
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 1: oh great, And there's my father right there. So my

750
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:00,879
Speaker 1: mom had been married to a man who was part

751
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 1: of the LDS Church. They were very happy, you know,

752
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: they were in the LDS Church, and her husband went

753
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 1: and heard my father preach. This is before I was born, obviously,

754
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: her husband went and heard my father preach and became

755
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: convinced that, you know, they needed to convert to the

756
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: fundamentalist teachings of Joseph Smith. And so her husband came

757
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: back and started telling her about these teachings, and my

758
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: mother wouldn't have anything to do with it, like plural marriage,

759
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 1: no way. And so he went back to my father

760
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 1: and said, if you want me to join your group,

761
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,720
Speaker 1: you're going to have to come and convert my wife.

762
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 1: So my father came, converted my mother and my mother

763
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: fell madly in love with him. So Batman, my mother's

764
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: husband at the time, moved his wife and children down

765
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 1: to the Laberan colony. He was converted, and then he

766
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,760
Speaker 1: went back to the United States to sell the house

767
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: and do whatever and tidy up business or whatever it was,

768
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 1: and get back to Mexico. And my mom's like, I'm

769
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: not your wife anymore. Wow, Erville had a revelation that

770
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to be his wife, and then that's the

771
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 1: end of that, because the prophet has all the power.

772
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: And so my dad gave him two other wives. Well

773
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,720
Speaker 1: that's nice for the one wife.

774
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,320
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, let's just call.

775
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: All of that what it is. So my mom was

776
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: my father's fourth wife, so he was a polygamist. But

777
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: my mother was already married, had a husband legally, and

778
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,800
Speaker 1: now in her own mind, she has a new husband,

779
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 1: a different husband, even though she's already married. So that's

780
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 1: what a poly something. There's a word for it where

781
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: you have more than one husband. But polygamy is like

782
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 1: the umbrella word if you have more than one of whatever.

783
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: My father was married to a woman who already had

784
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 1: a husband. Polyandre, Pollyandre, thank you. So my mom was

785
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 1: practicing polyandrist. My father, Irville Warren Jeff's same thing. Polygamy

786
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 1: and polyandry happening all over the place. Joseph Smith, same thing.

787
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: Joseph Smith was marrying in this celestial plural marriage, or

788
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: they wouldn't call it polygamy because they wanted to like

789
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 1: it wasn't polygamy. They were living a higher law, so

790
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: they called it plural marriage or celestial marriage. But he

791
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: would send men off to go preach in these different

792
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 1: towns and then while they were away, convinced the other

793
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 1: women to marry him. Is a celestial marriage. But secret

794
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 1: Emma didn't know about those weddings and those marriages.

795
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 3: Emma was Joseph Smith's wife for anybody who doesn't know.

796
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: So Emma was the first and legal wife, and she

797
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: didn't know about the secret celestial weddings that were happening.

798
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: And so those women were also practicing polyandry because.

799
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 3: They were married to other men and then did not

800
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 3: divorce their husbands.

801
00:42:58,400 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 4: Correct.

802
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: Show me anywhere where this is practice where the women

803
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:04,320
Speaker 1: and children aren't suffering.

804
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 4: I mean, I've seen sister wives.

805
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 1: That's my only And if you've seen sister wives, the

806
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 1: women are suffering. The children are suffering. The only redeeming

807
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: thing about that show, And this is what I tell

808
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: people all the time, like, tell me, what do you

809
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 1: think about And you know that Christine Brown, she's my

810
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 1: cousin no way, she's the one that looks like you.

811
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 3: Do you guys look exactly alike a little bit.

812
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 4: That's funny, Oh my gosh.

813
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So the thing that I love about that show,

814
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 1: and the reason why I'm so glad that that show exists,

815
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: even though they're practicing polygamy, is because they're living that

816
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: practice in the public eye with cameras on. And so

817
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 1: guess what, those children have the chance to choose whether

818
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: they want to practice polygamy or not. They have a

819
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: real choice and a real voice in the matter because

820
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: they're living in the public eye. Do you think that

821
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: the public would be so accepting of that show if

822
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 1: they were coercing and forcing these children into polygamy.

823
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 3: That's a good point.

824
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, if there was coercion going on, you would this

825
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 1: show would not be accepted in our country. The people

826
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 1: would see right through it.

827
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 3: It seems like anywhere where there is more exposure to

828
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,240
Speaker 3: the outside world, the chances of abuse just go down

829
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 3: because like when they're in a contained, you know, self

830
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 3: sealed system, there's just more room for people to get

831
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 3: away with terrible things.

832
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 1: Yes, in any secret, closed environment, it's ripe for abuse

833
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: every kind, not just people born in a polygamist family

834
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: like me. You can be born in a two parent

835
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: home or a single parent home, any kind of arrangement home,

836
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 1: and if it's closed in secret, where secrets are kept,

837
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 1: it's right for abuse. When you experience childhood trauma, abuse, neglect,

838
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 1: or abandonment, regardless of the kind of home that you

839
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: grew up in, the sects of it are the same.

840
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: It wasn't worse for me because I was in a

841
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: polygamist family. It was childhood trauma, abuse, neglect, and abandonment

842
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: that are so damaging to the psyche of a child.

843
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 3: Okay, so you're reunited with your mom. Can you tell

844
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 3: us about the period between reuniting with her and then

845
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:23,720
Speaker 3: running away at thirteen? What happened during that period?

846
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,800
Speaker 1: Once we went back to Denver and I was reunited

847
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: with my mom, My dad had factions of his cult

848
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 1: all over the Southwest United States and Denver, and the

849
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 1: man in charge in Denver was named Dan Jordan, and

850
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:41,359
Speaker 1: he used a lot of expletives very loudly when he

851
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 1: would talk to us kids who were slaves in his

852
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 1: appliance warehouse sweatshop. We were basically slave labor in his

853
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 1: youth appliance business. We would have to go to the warehouse,

854
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: you know, twelve hour days during the summer, six year weeks,

855
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, and work night during the beginning of

856
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:06,240
Speaker 1: one summer, He's like, work really hard, and work all summer.

857
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 1: And at the end of the summer, everybody's going to

858
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: get fifty dollars for new school clothes. And you think

859
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 1: new school clothes, well, that was something we had never

860
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:17,439
Speaker 1: had before. The way we were clothed was we would

861
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: go dumpster dive in the good willbox and I would

862
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 1: be put inside the good willbox because I was small enough,

863
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 1: I was like ten eleven years old. I could crawl

864
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: in there and dump the bags out and then take

865
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: the bags home, sort through them and find who fit what,

866
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 1: and you would just hope that something that kind of

867
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: reasonably fit would be bound for you. So that's how

868
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: we were clothed and to eat. You know, my mom

869
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 1: was on welfare, but because so many wives couldn't get

870
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 1: on welfare because they weren't legal citizens of the United States,

871
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: so all the welfare that she could collect had to

872
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: be spread out between you know, five or six families.

873
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: There was never enough. We had to go dumpster diving

874
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 1: in the dumpsters behind the grocery stores to supplement what

875
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: we had for food. I remember climbing into dumpsters and

876
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: finding you know, strawberry ice cream that's all melted, and

877
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 1: being super excited that we had ice cream. No, my

878
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 1: first taste of a yo play yogurt was from a dumpster.

879
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:19,320
Speaker 3: My goodness.

880
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: And so we would work twelve hour days, so we

881
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 1: would get off at nine o'clock at night. We worked

882
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: nine am to nine pm. We would leave the warehouse

883
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,399
Speaker 1: at nine o'clock at night, drive to the grocery store,

884
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 1: drive around to the back. So my mom couldn't afford

885
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 1: to shop for groceries inside the grocery store, go in

886
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,320
Speaker 1: the back, climb in the dumpster, pull out old fruit

887
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: and vegetables that you know, were discarded and couldn't be

888
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 1: sold in the store, and dairy products that had expired,

889
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,760
Speaker 1: you know, cottage cheese and yogurt, and gallons of milk

890
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,839
Speaker 1: that had expired, and then you just hope that they're

891
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 1: still good, you know, and then you go home and

892
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 1: feast on the findings from the dumpster. And then so

893
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: Dan says, like, you know, fifty dollars for every kid

894
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 1: for new school clothes, and you're just like.

895
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,399
Speaker 2: Oh, new clothes.

896
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. So we work all summer, twelve hour days, six

897
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:12,800
Speaker 1: days a week, and at the end of the summer,

898
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 1: no fifty dollars materializes. None. Now, Dan Jordan's children came

899
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 1: in to work a couple of days a week in

900
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 1: the afternoon and worked a couple of hours and went home.

901
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 1: And then next Sunday, after you know, school started, my

902
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: mom was like given fifty dollars for all fifteen of

903
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: the kids she was watching, and so we got to

904
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 1: spend a few dollars inside an actual thrift store picking

905
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 1: out a two shirts and two pair of pants. You know,

906
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 1: Oh my god, at least they somewhat fit. And so

907
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 1: we go to church the next Sunday and Dan's daughter

908
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,399
Speaker 1: that was close in age to me, walks in with

909
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,359
Speaker 1: a new dress and new shoes and new tights and

910
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 1: just looking flies all get out. You know, I'm twelve,

911
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 1: and these things matter. Now, you know, when you're nine

912
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: or eight or or whatever, it's like whatever. But at twelve,

913
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:09,280
Speaker 1: you're noticing things totally. It was such a bitterness of soul.

914
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: It was a bitter pill to swallow, and I swallowed

915
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:17,800
Speaker 1: it hard, swallowed it down, and that bitterness just lived

916
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 1: inside of me. You were not allowed to complain, you

917
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,240
Speaker 1: were not allowed to say anything. You couldn't talk about

918
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: the injustice of it. Can you tell that I still

919
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: experienced that? I, I mean, how could you not? And

920
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 1: then I had an older brother that was living in

921
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:35,800
Speaker 1: Houston in one of the factions of my dad's cult

922
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 1: in Houston, and that faction was kind of distancing themselves

923
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 1: from my father because now my father was arrested and

924
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: put in prison, and that's how we ended up in Denver.

925
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: So my brother came from Houston packed this up in

926
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:54,919
Speaker 1: a U haul truck, where every other time we've moved

927
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 1: in my whole life, we would just leave in the

928
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 1: middle of the night, leaving everything behind. So this was

929
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,800
Speaker 1: the first time I I remember packing everything and moving.

930
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 1: And so he moved us to Houston where at the

931
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 1: appliance store that was run in Houston by Mark, another

932
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: sister's husband, a half sister, a lot of family intermarrying here.

933
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 1: It was my half sister's husband, Mark, who was in

934
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: charge of the Houston faction. He really wanted to do

935
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 1: right by my father's children. He would pay us for

936
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 1: our work, like we had to work, but we didn't

937
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:28,879
Speaker 1: have to work twelve hour days. And we got paid

938
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: five dollars a week for working after school and on Saturdays.

939
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:35,320
Speaker 1: I mean five dollars a week when you've had nothing

940
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: in your twelve five dollars is a lot of money.

941
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 1: I could save up my five dollars a week after

942
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:44,880
Speaker 1: week and then go to Marshalls. I don't know if

943
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,320
Speaker 1: you have a Marshall fold, you know I love Marshall's.

944
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,360
Speaker 1: Go to Marshall's. I bought myself a pair of Gloria

945
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 1: Vanderbilt jeans with the little white swans stitched on the puppet.

946
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 1: And then I saved up my five dollars a week

947
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 1: after week after week, and I went and bought myself

948
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 1: a pair of Nike tennis shoes, the two tone brown

949
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:06,879
Speaker 1: with the little swosh on the side. Nice. And I'm

950
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 1: feeling like a million bucks because not only that close

951
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 1: by where we lived, there was a beauty school where

952
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 1: for like two or three dollars, you go get a haircut,

953
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 1: uh oh, from a beauty school. So I went and

954
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 1: had my hair feathered like Fara Fawcet.

955
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 4: Come on.

956
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 1: By that time, it had grown out some from the

957
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 1: Mexico to acle, so they feathered my hair. So, I mean,

958
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 1: I have pictures. I do not look like farafacet ixtreshibitation

959
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:40,959
Speaker 1: yet in my mind, in my mind, I was the

960
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 1: hottest thing ever.

961
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 4: That's amazing.

962
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 1: And so I'm twelve and experiencing this, and you know,

963
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 1: we're in public school. My mom was paid for her work.

964
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 1: She could shop for groceries in the grocery store. I

965
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: could go to school with my head held high for

966
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 1: the first time ever because my mom could pack me

967
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 1: a sack lunch that looked like the other kids, a

968
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:09,359
Speaker 1: little brown paper bag with little baggies with a Bolgonian

969
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 1: fake cheese sandwich you know, on white red with mayo,

970
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 1: you know, and then a little baggy with Dorito's and

971
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: a little baggy with a few oreos. And for the

972
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 1: first time in my life, I felt like a normal kid,

973
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:23,800
Speaker 1: even though I'm still in a cult.

974
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 5: Right.

975
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 3: Had you gone to public school prior to this point.

976
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 1: Yes, off and on, because when you're little, public school

977
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,839
Speaker 1: is free babysitting, free childcare, because everybody had to work.

978
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 1: So if you were little, you were you were in school,

979
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 1: and as soon as you were old enough to be

980
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 1: put to work as slaves, you would be pulled out

981
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 1: of school.

982
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 3: We actually, can you tell us really fast, because we

983
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 3: kind of skipped over the part where your dad got

984
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 3: in any trouble for any of these murders. Can you

985
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 3: just tell us about how he got in trouble in

986
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 3: the first place.

987
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 1: So, yes, my father did get arrested in Mexico. Part

988
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:56,840
Speaker 1: of the life that we knew as a children was

989
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:59,919
Speaker 1: our houses being raided by the FBI when we lived

990
00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 1: in the US, or the Mexican police we lived in

991
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:06,359
Speaker 1: Mexico because they were searching for my father and other

992
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 1: group members who were wanted, so.

993
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 3: They knew that he had ordered the murders.

994
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: The FBI was after my father, the Mexican police, all

995
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 1: the authorities, the Secret Service was my dad was on

996
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:18,760
Speaker 1: their radar.

997
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 3: Wow, So the.

998
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:23,879
Speaker 1: Mexican police did arrest him eventually. I talk about being

999
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 1: in the houses as they were raided by the FBI

1000
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 1: and the Mexican police. In my book because that was

1001
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 1: so scary. And they eventually caught up with him and

1002
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 1: he was extradited. So the Mexican police took him to

1003
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 1: the border, just like you see in the movies, you know, yeah,

1004
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 1: where he handed over to the FBI agents waiting for

1005
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: him on the other side.

1006
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 4: Wow, oh my goodness.

1007
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 1: And so he was tried and convicted and sentenced to

1008
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 1: life in prison. Even though he had never pulled the

1009
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 1: trigger on anyone. He was always sending his followers after

1010
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 1: to go and do his dirty work, and they did. Yeah.

1011
00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 4: I was wondering what happened to Ramona. Did she get

1012
00:53:59,160 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 4: in trouble.

1013
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 1: A lot of the people that were involved, many of

1014
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:04,240
Speaker 1: them were tried and acquitted.

1015
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 3: I see, really wow.

1016
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:09,839
Speaker 1: If they had convicted them, they couldn't have gone after

1017
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 1: my father. I see. There were some people who served

1018
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 1: life sentences. There are people in my family still in prison,

1019
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 1: people that I know that did go to jail and

1020
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:22,239
Speaker 1: get convicted. Some of them were tried and acquitted. So

1021
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:25,799
Speaker 1: it just depends on the circumstance. But my father ended

1022
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: up in prison and was there several years. I think

1023
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 1: it was arrested around nineteen seventy nine, and he died

1024
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: in prison in nineteen eighty one under very, very mysterious circumstances. Oh,

1025
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 1: I don't believe that Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. You know. No,

1026
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 1: A lot of powerful people wanted him not being able

1027
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 1: to talk, right, and so he is not able to talk.

1028
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:56,360
Speaker 1: I also have a conspiracy theory that he's on some

1029
00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 1: islands somewhere with a new face and new identity. He

1030
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 1: has a lot of money to do that with, so

1031
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 1: you know, he is powerably people, so that could have

1032
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: been possible too. So can you see that I'm just

1033
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,839
Speaker 1: hardwired to believe conspiracy theories.

1034
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 7: You know, when you grow up the way I did,

1035
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 7: you're taught to believe all kinds of weird stuff, right,

1036
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 7: So anything is possible, really, So yeah, there's conspiracy theories

1037
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:23,440
Speaker 7: I have about how my father died in prison.

1038
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 4: How was he found?

1039
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:28,800
Speaker 1: He was found on the floor of his cell. Should

1040
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 1: I just tell you what my conspiracy theory is? I think, Okay,

1041
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 1: I didn't know anything. I'm twelve years old. He dies,

1042
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 1: we have his funeral, and I'm twelve again. You know,

1043
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,560
Speaker 1: I'm a worldly girl now with my glory Vanderbilt jeans,

1044
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 1: and I go to the funeral. So this is how

1045
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,760
Speaker 1: weird our family was. People would die and get buried

1046
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 1: in shallow graves, never to be seen again. Nobody went

1047
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: to funerals. We didn't grieve their passing. They were just

1048
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 1: quietly done away with. I don't know of anybody in

1049
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 1: my family that died of natural causes when I was

1050
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 1: a kid. Wow, so this is my first time going

1051
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 1: to a funeral. There's a dead body in the casket,

1052
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 1: and I'm a curious twelve year old girl. It's not

1053
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:13,400
Speaker 1: traumatizing to me to see them that he's dead. I

1054
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 1: was worn, you know, I was talked to about it.

1055
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: You know, he's he's going to be in the casket

1056
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 1: and you can go say goodbye to your father, you know,

1057
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:21,319
Speaker 1: after seeing him two times in my whole life, you know.

1058
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:22,359
Speaker 3: Right.

1059
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 1: So I go up and I'm looking at the casket

1060
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 1: I've been looking in and I'm so curious because I

1061
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,920
Speaker 1: was told that bodies get cold when they're dead, and

1062
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 1: so I touched it. I wanted to see what it

1063
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 1: felt like, and it was very weird. I can still

1064
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 1: remember the feeling of that firm, cold skin. Yeah, but

1065
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,839
Speaker 1: I was so curious, So I was just intently studying

1066
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:51,200
Speaker 1: the body, and I remember that, you know, in the

1067
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:53,800
Speaker 1: Mormon tradition, you know, the men wear these white shirts

1068
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:56,479
Speaker 1: with a tie and a jacket, you know, dark suit,

1069
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 1: you know. And I remember the collar of his white

1070
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 1: shirt had makeup on it, and they, you know, they

1071
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: use makeup on the deceased person to help them look

1072
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:10,399
Speaker 1: more natural and everything. But he had makeup all down

1073
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:12,360
Speaker 1: his neck, and some of it had gotten on the

1074
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 1: white collar of his shirt. I had looked at that,

1075
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: and then I noticed that there was dark bruising underneath

1076
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: the makeup on his neck. I didn't know to make

1077
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 1: any conclusions about that. I just remember seeing it as

1078
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 1: a twelve year old, and then I grew up and nothing,

1079
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:32,959
Speaker 1: you know, it just never gave it any thought again

1080
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 1: until as an adult I am told that there's that

1081
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 1: My dad's obituary was published in the New York Times

1082
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 1: when he died, because he's this notorious person. I mean,

1083
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:48,520
Speaker 1: he made national news every time somebody died and they

1084
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 1: found out about it. So the New York Times publishes

1085
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 1: this obituary. So I go and look it up on

1086
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 1: you know, by that time he had the Internet, it

1087
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 1: was slow and dial up, you know. I looked it

1088
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 1: up and saw it, and they're in that article about

1089
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 1: his obituary. They had interviewed people from the prison, the guards,

1090
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 1: and the guards reported that he had committed suicide by

1091
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 1: punching himself in the throat.

1092
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 3: Excuse me, punching himself in the throat.

1093
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 1: You can read it for yourself. It's there in black

1094
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 1: and white. I'm not making this up. And in my

1095
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: mind I thought, huh, he punched himself in the throat,

1096
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 1: that's the bruising. But then as I'm telling somebody this,

1097
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 1: they're like, Anna, that's not how it works, right, So

1098
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 1: now I have my conspiracy that he was strangulated.

1099
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 3: Oh interesting, a lot.

1100
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 1: Of powerful people wanted my father dead.

1101
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, I've yet to hear of anyone killing themselves by

1102
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:50,280
Speaker 5: punching themselves in the throat before it.

1103
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:51,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the first time for me.

1104
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 4: As well.

1105
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:56,480
Speaker 1: As I've talked to morticians, I've talked to forensic people

1106
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 1: that do the you know, the people that study all this,

1107
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 1: and all of them are like, no, that's how it works.

1108
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:05,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Wait, what year was this that he died?

1109
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 1: Nineteen eighty one? Okay, so I know that I'm over

1110
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 1: here laughing about this and joking, and it's funny now

1111
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 1: because it's kind of funny. If you can't laugh about it,

1112
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 1: you're going to cry about it, So I'd rather laugh. Yeah,

1113
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 1: But I'm actually glad that my dad died. I'm not

1114
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 1: mad at whoever did this. My dad was controlling everything

1115
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 1: from prison.

1116
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 3: How many people were murdered at your father's orders before

1117
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 3: he died.

1118
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 1: Total, there's about twenty eight people confirmed and about thirty

1119
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 1: five to thirty eight depending on which investigator is.

1120
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 3: Wow, that is so and so many.

1121
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 1: There are some that are unconfirmed. But even after my

1122
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:52,720
Speaker 1: father died in prison, people that he had written in

1123
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 1: his tone from prison were being killed even after he died.

1124
00:59:58,360 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 4: Unbelievable.

1125
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:01,560
Speaker 1: And Matt continued after his death.

1126
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 3: That part of the story is so crazy to me.

1127
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean it's all crazy. Obviously, anybody ordering

1128
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 3: a murder is absolutely insane and horrific. But then the

1129
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:18,280
Speaker 3: fact that he then dies and then people go on

1130
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 3: and continue to commit murders on his behalf.

1131
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 1: And the crazy part was I didn't know any of

1132
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:30,360
Speaker 1: this was happening. So after my dad dies, Dan Jordan,

1133
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 1: who's in Denver, his business has gone under because he

1134
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 1: doesn't have slaves right because we moved to Houston, and

1135
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 1: convinces my mother that Mark is going to put Rviell's

1136
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 1: children on a path the hell because Mark was letting

1137
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 1: us go to the Dollar movies and listen to secular

1138
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:47,840
Speaker 1: music and.

1139
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 5: Paying you money and treating you fairly, right, yeah, Martha.

1140
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 1: So Dan convinces my mom to take us all back

1141
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 1: to Denver. And at that point I was like, not

1142
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 1: just no, hell now. Yeah. At that time I didn't cuss,

1143
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 1: and I try not to cuss today, but that was

1144
01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:10,760
Speaker 1: basically the sentiment that I had was like, I'm not

1145
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 1: going back to Denver. In my family, we were so transient.

1146
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 1: Everyone was so transient, and people got moved and shuffled around,

1147
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:21,880
Speaker 1: and we experienced that our entire life. That in my

1148
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 1: mind it was like, well, if everybody's going back to Denver,

1149
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 1: I can stay here, Like why can't I stay here?

1150
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:30,520
Speaker 1: I like it better here. And so I called my

1151
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:33,040
Speaker 1: sister that was married to Mark, who was in charge,

1152
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:35,880
Speaker 1: and I said, Lilian, I don't want to go to

1153
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,520
Speaker 1: Denver because I'd gotten wind that my mom was planning

1154
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 1: to take us back. So Lilian said to me, start walking.

1155
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 1: So I made sure I was wearing my Glory Vanderbilt

1156
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:49,960
Speaker 1: jeans and my Nike tennis shoes, and I walked out

1157
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 1: of my mom's house and left everything behind. Wow, I

1158
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:58,800
Speaker 1: had walked a little over three miles, which if you

1159
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 1: do any running or walking, you know that a little

1160
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:04,439
Speaker 1: over three miles is a five K. So I called

1161
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 1: that my five K to freedom. I didn't know that

1162
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 1: that five k was what got me out of the cult.

1163
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 1: I didn't even know I was in a colt yet.

1164
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 1: And I went and my sister found me a little

1165
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 1: over three miles from my house, picked me up. I

1166
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 1: knew where she was, and like again, I had a

1167
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 1: map in my head, you know, so I knew how

1168
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:29,080
Speaker 1: to get to her house. So I was just walking

1169
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 1: that path, and I was scared because people drove that

1170
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:34,480
Speaker 1: path from her house to the warehouse back to our

1171
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 1: house all the time, and so there was a lot

1172
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:39,000
Speaker 1: of people with trucks that could drive, and I could

1173
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:41,120
Speaker 1: be spotted and put back in the truck and hauled

1174
01:02:41,160 --> 01:02:45,120
Speaker 1: off to Denver, and so I was scared walking. She

1175
01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:48,400
Speaker 1: found me and took me. Mona lived in Houston by

1176
01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:50,840
Speaker 1: that time, so she took me to Ramona's house and

1177
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 1: I was spending that I did at Ramona's house. That

1178
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 1: first night I was gone, and Ramona comes in my

1179
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,959
Speaker 1: room middle of the night and says, on a wake

1180
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 1: up through the window. Go to the backside of the gate,

1181
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 1: on the back side of the yard, there's a hole

1182
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:07,520
Speaker 1: in the fence. Crawl on the left side. Crawl through

1183
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 1: that fence and stay on the other side of the fence,

1184
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:13,440
Speaker 1: stay behind the bushes, and don't move until I come

1185
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 1: and get you. Whoa. And what I didn't know was

1186
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:19,440
Speaker 1: that my mom was at her front door looking for me.

1187
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 3: Wow, oh wow.

1188
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:23,360
Speaker 1: And so she hid me and lied, And so my

1189
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 1: mom looked for me that night. But even though she

1190
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:28,600
Speaker 1: couldn't find me. This is how messed up my mom was.

1191
01:03:29,240 --> 01:03:32,600
Speaker 1: She left, She took the other children and left like

1192
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:38,480
Speaker 1: she had a runaway daughter. And she moves several states away. WHOA,

1193
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:40,360
Speaker 1: what if I had not gone to my sister?

1194
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1195
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 1: Right, And then I decided to come home and everybody's gone, Like,

1196
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 1: I mean, how crazy is that?

1197
01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:49,000
Speaker 3: That's so crazy?

1198
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 1: She doesn't know where her thirteen year old daughter is

1199
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 1: and she moves several states away.

1200
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:56,560
Speaker 3: Oh well, I'm so glad you were with your family.

1201
01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:58,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, but in my mind, it was just

1202
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:02,000
Speaker 1: I was choosing to stay in Houston where we had

1203
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 1: a better life, not running away from a cult. But

1204
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 1: in essence that was the end result. Now, after that night,

1205
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 1: Lilian came back the next day when Mona told her,

1206
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:15,320
Speaker 1: and she hit me in a hotel for three days.

1207
01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 1: So then I was living the real life where every

1208
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:22,280
Speaker 1: day she brought me a happy meal from McDonald's and

1209
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:25,080
Speaker 1: gave me cash for the coke and soda machine and

1210
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:27,680
Speaker 1: candy machine in the hall. So all I did was

1211
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:31,920
Speaker 1: watch TV all day, eat McDonald and coke and candy bars.

1212
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:35,120
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, that was like I had worked my

1213
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 1: whole life thirty nine years old. Yeah, that was the

1214
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:40,600
Speaker 1: great life. We weren't allowed to watch TV very often,

1215
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 1: so this is the best life possible.

1216
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:44,520
Speaker 4: Wow.

1217
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 1: And so for three days I got to live like

1218
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:50,800
Speaker 1: a queen in a hotel watching TV all day. And then,

1219
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:52,800
Speaker 1: of course, you know, I went to go live with Lillian.

1220
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 1: She took me into her house and not long after,

1221
01:04:57,120 --> 01:05:00,600
Speaker 1: maybe a month, a few weeks. Time is really weird

1222
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 1: when you're that age and those kinds of things are happening.

1223
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:07,080
Speaker 1: But not long after Lillian had enrolled me in a

1224
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:09,760
Speaker 1: little private school down the road from her house. I

1225
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 1: got out of school, came to her house and I

1226
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:15,160
Speaker 1: was at the house by myself alone, and I look

1227
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:18,800
Speaker 1: out the back window and there's my mom coming around

1228
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:22,520
Speaker 1: the corner house. And remember the last time I was

1229
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:24,240
Speaker 1: separated from my mom, and I was on the porch

1230
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:26,640
Speaker 1: and I saw her and we cried and embraced and

1231
01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:29,960
Speaker 1: she cried over my hair. This time, I was deathly terrified.

1232
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:34,120
Speaker 1: I've seen my mother thinking she's coming to get me,

1233
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:37,160
Speaker 1: and she's hauling me back to Denver against my will,

1234
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 1: and so I sunk down, didn't let her see me.

1235
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 1: Crawled over to a phone called Lilian at the shop

1236
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:48,440
Speaker 1: because they had an appliance business. I was like, well, man,

1237
01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:52,360
Speaker 1: my mom is here, My mom is here. I'm scared

1238
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 1: to death. I can I'm shaking, and she says, don't

1239
01:05:56,360 --> 01:06:00,400
Speaker 1: open the door. I am on my way. You know.

1240
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 1: She was ten minutes away, and it was just like

1241
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:05,920
Speaker 1: the longest ten minutes of my life. And she finally

1242
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 1: gets there, and my mom tried the whole afternoon evening

1243
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:16,120
Speaker 1: to convince me to go back to Denver with her.

1244
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:19,520
Speaker 1: I don't know how, because this is not how I

1245
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:22,720
Speaker 1: normally am but I just sat and said, I want

1246
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:24,680
Speaker 1: to live in Houston. I want to live in Houston.

1247
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 1: I want to live here with Lilian. I want to

1248
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:29,080
Speaker 1: live in Houston. And I just had to like stand

1249
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:32,760
Speaker 1: my ground. I want to live here, I want to

1250
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:35,960
Speaker 1: stay here. I don't want to go to Denver, you know,

1251
01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:39,720
Speaker 1: and just kept repeating it until she finally acquiesced and

1252
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:43,280
Speaker 1: let me stay. But what I didn't know was the

1253
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:45,360
Speaker 1: day I ran away from home, my other sister ran

1254
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:48,040
Speaker 1: away from home too. Both of us ran away from

1255
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:49,760
Speaker 1: home the same day. Neither one of us knew.

1256
01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:50,439
Speaker 4: Oh wow.

1257
01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:54,080
Speaker 1: Earlier in the day my other sister, my mom found

1258
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 1: her and tried to force her into the truck with

1259
01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:01,200
Speaker 1: the other person that was with her. They tried to

1260
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:04,200
Speaker 1: force my sister into the truck. She was older than me,

1261
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:07,000
Speaker 1: She had a little fire in her belly, and she

1262
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:10,600
Speaker 1: kicked and clawed and screamed and scratched and would not

1263
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:12,760
Speaker 1: let them put her in the truck. You know, that's

1264
01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:14,440
Speaker 1: what they tell you if you're to get kidnapped, is

1265
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:17,880
Speaker 1: don't go to a second location. You can't can scratch

1266
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:20,880
Speaker 1: and scream and tell you. They decide this they picked

1267
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:23,600
Speaker 1: the wrong person. Well, that's what my sister did, and

1268
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:27,120
Speaker 1: they didn't take her. She wasn't able, They weren't able

1269
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:30,480
Speaker 1: to overpower her. So by the time they my mom

1270
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:33,680
Speaker 1: came for me, they had changed tactics. I don't know

1271
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:35,840
Speaker 1: that I would have had it within me to kick

1272
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:38,640
Speaker 1: and claw and scream and scratch my way out of that.

1273
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:42,600
Speaker 1: So I'm really grateful that by the time she got

1274
01:07:42,600 --> 01:07:46,840
Speaker 1: to me that she had changed her tactics and actually

1275
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:47,840
Speaker 1: gave me a choice.

1276
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:49,280
Speaker 3: Oh thank god.

1277
01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:52,680
Speaker 1: So I stayed in Houston and Mark and Lillian finished

1278
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:53,120
Speaker 1: raising me.

1279
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:56,080
Speaker 3: Wow, Mark and Lillian sounded amazing.

1280
01:07:56,600 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 1: They're the heroes of my story. They're the heroes of

1281
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 1: so many need people's stories because I wasn't the only

1282
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:04,480
Speaker 1: one that they took in and helped.

1283
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:07,440
Speaker 4: Did they leave the religion or what happened.

1284
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:10,400
Speaker 1: With that they eventually did. At the time that they

1285
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:11,960
Speaker 1: lived in Houston, when they were in charge of a

1286
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:14,720
Speaker 1: lot of things and a lot of people, they were

1287
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:18,439
Speaker 1: edging their way to getting out, but they hadn't gotten

1288
01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:21,600
Speaker 1: out because getting out put a target on your back, right. So,

1289
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:24,840
Speaker 1: after my dad died and things just kind of a

1290
01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:26,800
Speaker 1: lot of people died after that. Trying to figure out

1291
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,160
Speaker 1: who the next profit was, and lots of people killing

1292
01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:32,920
Speaker 1: each other over that. I was blissfully unaware of all

1293
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:35,160
Speaker 1: of that. And Mark and Lillian were just left in

1294
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:37,400
Speaker 1: Houston to live their lives and I was with them,

1295
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:39,680
Speaker 1: and I helped them run their business and helped the

1296
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:42,320
Speaker 1: tend their six kids, and I was basically their right

1297
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:44,960
Speaker 1: hand person, you know. At thirteen, I was taught a

1298
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:47,760
Speaker 1: good work ethic. I could get a lot done and

1299
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:50,960
Speaker 1: manage a lot, and I did. I managed the manage

1300
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:53,280
Speaker 1: their children and helped manage their home and help manage

1301
01:08:53,320 --> 01:08:55,360
Speaker 1: their business. They left be in charge of all of

1302
01:08:55,360 --> 01:08:59,040
Speaker 1: it all the time, and so it was very capable.

1303
01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:04,280
Speaker 1: In the mean time, though, I'm also having mental health

1304
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:10,680
Speaker 1: issues that were undiagnosed and untreated. I was experiencing a

1305
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:14,720
Speaker 1: depression while I was there, just because you're separated from

1306
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:17,400
Speaker 1: your family, and you know, once you leave that kind

1307
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:21,960
Speaker 1: of experience, you're excommunicated. I didn't have any contact with

1308
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:25,360
Speaker 1: my mom or my siblings that I was very close

1309
01:09:25,400 --> 01:09:28,880
Speaker 1: to my whole life. That's awful, and so I was

1310
01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 1: going through serious depression. Yeah, but I didn't know how

1311
01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:37,080
Speaker 1: to say it. I didn't know how to figure like

1312
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:39,519
Speaker 1: I didn't know, and people back then it was just

1313
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:43,400
Speaker 1: a different time. People didn't know and didn't talk about depression,

1314
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:46,080
Speaker 1: didn't talk about mental health the way we do today,

1315
01:09:46,320 --> 01:09:49,720
Speaker 1: the way I do today. Right, I very really talk

1316
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:53,120
Speaker 1: about mental health. But back then we didn't know. It

1317
01:09:53,160 --> 01:09:56,320
Speaker 1: was a different time. And so eventually I did come

1318
01:09:56,360 --> 01:09:59,320
Speaker 1: out of that depression, but it was so untreated, and

1319
01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:03,479
Speaker 1: just all that trauma that we had experienced, even leaving

1320
01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:07,120
Speaker 1: my mom was traumatic experience. All of it was just

1321
01:10:07,360 --> 01:10:11,280
Speaker 1: trauma after trauma after trauma, and so I just did

1322
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:14,760
Speaker 1: the very best I could with what I had, and

1323
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:19,479
Speaker 1: I thought I was happy in mini regards, I was happy.

1324
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:22,120
Speaker 1: It was the best life I had ever had in

1325
01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:26,400
Speaker 1: this little private school, just tucked away, where the teachers

1326
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:29,240
Speaker 1: were kind and the students embraced me, and I made

1327
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:35,120
Speaker 1: my first friends ever outside the cult, oh as a teenager.

1328
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:37,439
Speaker 1: These are friends that I still have today, you know.

1329
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:42,600
Speaker 1: And so it was just like a little cocoon environment.

1330
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:45,960
Speaker 1: You know. There were aspects of it that probably weren't ideal,

1331
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:50,760
Speaker 1: and it was very legalistic and fundamentalist Christianity, and you know,

1332
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:53,720
Speaker 1: but it was better than anything I had ever experienced

1333
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:57,360
Speaker 1: in my life. Yeah, And so it felt like just

1334
01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:02,000
Speaker 1: a fantasy world. It was so good, and so I

1335
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:06,559
Speaker 1: lived that way for a long time. And then some

1336
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:09,639
Speaker 1: of the people that were killed after my father died

1337
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:14,960
Speaker 1: was my brother in law, No and his brother. And

1338
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:18,479
Speaker 1: then those events where that happened became known as four

1339
01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:22,240
Speaker 1: o'clock murders. That happened in nineteen eighty eight. That was

1340
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:27,080
Speaker 1: one of the scariest days of my life. Yeah, and

1341
01:11:27,120 --> 01:11:32,240
Speaker 1: then seven months after that, Lilian committed suicide, and my god,

1342
01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:37,439
Speaker 1: because her mental health was compromised. She lived with so

1343
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:41,960
Speaker 1: much trauma, and she had overcome so much trauma, and

1344
01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:45,519
Speaker 1: the events that happened when her husband got killed really

1345
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:49,719
Speaker 1: just triggered. I mean, so much grief and suffering was happening.

1346
01:11:49,960 --> 01:11:52,479
Speaker 1: And again, it was a different time, and mental health

1347
01:11:52,960 --> 01:11:56,479
Speaker 1: wasn't something that I mean, it's not ever easily treatable,

1348
01:11:57,000 --> 01:12:00,800
Speaker 1: but we know more about it today, and it's just

1349
01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:03,640
Speaker 1: it was a different time, and she couldn't get the

1350
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:08,840
Speaker 1: help that she needed quick enough. Oh, and it was

1351
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:12,519
Speaker 1: losing her when I was in college by then that

1352
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:17,080
Speaker 1: spiraled me into a clinical depression for a long time.

1353
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:20,479
Speaker 1: It was like the I had been so strong, my

1354
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:27,040
Speaker 1: whole life strong, for everybody, and that was just that

1355
01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:31,000
Speaker 1: was the last thing that my brain could take, and

1356
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:34,679
Speaker 1: I spiraled it to a real severe depression. I was twenty,

1357
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:37,800
Speaker 1: I was very young, twenty, and I had in my

1358
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:44,519
Speaker 1: mind thought, oh, I'm never gonna feel anything again. I

1359
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:49,759
Speaker 1: was so flat lined emotionally. I couldn't cry, I couldn't laugh,

1360
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:55,080
Speaker 1: I couldn't smile, like I was flat lined, and I

1361
01:12:55,160 --> 01:12:59,800
Speaker 1: knew that I was never going to feel emotion again.

1362
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:05,640
Speaker 1: That's how deep it was. And I accepted it. I

1363
01:13:05,760 --> 01:13:08,639
Speaker 1: just thought, Okay, this is the rest of my life.

1364
01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:12,599
Speaker 1: I mean, I wasn't suicidal myself. I accepted that that

1365
01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:17,200
Speaker 1: level of grief and suffering was just that was how

1366
01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:18,599
Speaker 1: it was going to be the rest of my life.

1367
01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:21,400
Speaker 3: I'm so sorry that all that happened to you. I mean,

1368
01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:26,680
Speaker 3: it's just levels upon levels upon levels of heartbreak and

1369
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:31,240
Speaker 3: trauma and just horrible experiences to have, and I'm just

1370
01:13:31,280 --> 01:13:32,200
Speaker 3: so sorry for you.

1371
01:13:32,439 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for that. Just knowing that people care.

1372
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:40,559
Speaker 1: You can see that I am able to grieve now

1373
01:13:41,120 --> 01:13:46,200
Speaker 1: and appropriately express emotion, which I did not have the

1374
01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:49,960
Speaker 1: capacity for at that time, and through the therapy and

1375
01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:53,560
Speaker 1: counseling that I've received, I've been able to grieve appropriately

1376
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:57,519
Speaker 1: and talk about these things and experience the emotion of it,

1377
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:01,200
Speaker 1: and that's healthy. Yeah, but I had friends, and I

1378
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:03,640
Speaker 1: had a friend that you know, I talk about it

1379
01:14:03,640 --> 01:14:05,920
Speaker 1: in the book what happened and how she was able

1380
01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:09,200
Speaker 1: to come alongside of me, and how I was able

1381
01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:12,840
Speaker 1: to finally be able to take a breath and experience

1382
01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:18,559
Speaker 1: emotion again through a series of circumstances, and I finally realized,

1383
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:21,960
Speaker 1: so this is probably, you know, months after my sister died,

1384
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:25,840
Speaker 1: and it's the first time I felt anything, and I thought,

1385
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:32,760
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I'm actually going to have emotions in

1386
01:14:32,800 --> 01:14:36,320
Speaker 1: my life again that I just knew would never I

1387
01:14:36,360 --> 01:14:39,160
Speaker 1: would never have to have again. It was such a

1388
01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:45,280
Speaker 1: meaningful moment when I experienced this jolt of adrenaline from

1389
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:48,360
Speaker 1: the things that, you know, just some shenanigans that she

1390
01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:52,040
Speaker 1: got me involved in with her, you know, breaking the

1391
01:14:52,120 --> 01:14:56,599
Speaker 1: rules of the school we were in. Had that little

1392
01:14:56,720 --> 01:15:00,679
Speaker 1: jolt of adrenaline knowing we were breaking the rules, could

1393
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:04,679
Speaker 1: get campused and detention and all that for we got caught.

1394
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:07,240
Speaker 1: It's I'm thankful for my friend who was willing to

1395
01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:10,360
Speaker 1: drag me in and rope me into her Shenanigans that

1396
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:13,760
Speaker 1: allowed me to experience that little jolt of adrenaline that

1397
01:15:14,160 --> 01:15:16,800
Speaker 1: where I was excited for a half second and I went, oh,

1398
01:15:17,200 --> 01:15:20,080
Speaker 1: my gosh. In my mind, I thought, oh, I'm not

1399
01:15:20,120 --> 01:15:21,839
Speaker 1: going to be sad the rest of my life.

1400
01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:24,759
Speaker 3: Wow, what a moment.

1401
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:30,800
Speaker 1: And that was the beginning of thinking, Okay, my life

1402
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:33,760
Speaker 1: isn't over. You know, it was nineteen ninety five, so

1403
01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:37,680
Speaker 1: six years later that I'm again seeing a counselor so

1404
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:42,680
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five began my healing journey with a professional counselor.

1405
01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:44,720
Speaker 5: What do you think has been the hardest to process

1406
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:48,080
Speaker 5: or is there even a way to categorize that?

1407
01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:52,519
Speaker 1: Well, I've been diagnosed with anxiety that's triggered by post

1408
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:56,960
Speaker 1: traumatic stress and my whole lived experience as a child

1409
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:03,160
Speaker 1: was one traumatic experience. It's after another, and so complex.

1410
01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:08,720
Speaker 1: Trauma is absolutely the way that it's described with the

1411
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:16,320
Speaker 1: professionals overcoming that and going through literally over a decade

1412
01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:23,439
Speaker 1: of professional counseling and still still to this day having

1413
01:16:23,920 --> 01:16:29,800
Speaker 1: experiences where the trauma is triggered. Because trauma doesn't just

1414
01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:34,000
Speaker 1: go away. It's something that is a part of you.

1415
01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:37,080
Speaker 1: There's a really great book called the body keeps the

1416
01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:42,160
Speaker 1: score about how trauma just lives in your body and

1417
01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:45,800
Speaker 1: it stays and it's just any little thing can be

1418
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:50,240
Speaker 1: a trigger. And so navigating through all that, finding out

1419
01:16:50,479 --> 01:16:52,800
Speaker 1: what is it to be triggered, how do I know

1420
01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:57,599
Speaker 1: when I'm triggered, feeling that, having the panic attacks, and

1421
01:16:57,640 --> 01:17:02,559
Speaker 1: then having to talk yourself down. My therapist has been

1422
01:17:02,920 --> 01:17:09,040
Speaker 1: incredibly helpful in that she does everything holistically. When I

1423
01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:13,280
Speaker 1: recognize that I'm triggered, you know how to use my

1424
01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:17,960
Speaker 1: you know it's emotional, mental, physical, spiritual, in all of

1425
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:21,479
Speaker 1: the ways to manage that, to bring myself back into

1426
01:17:21,560 --> 01:17:24,400
Speaker 1: the presence, because that's what trauma does when you have

1427
01:17:24,439 --> 01:17:27,720
Speaker 1: a trigger, it takes you right back to where you were.

1428
01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:31,760
Speaker 1: And there's just so many different experiences that I had

1429
01:17:32,080 --> 01:17:36,000
Speaker 1: that were traumatic for me. There's oftentimes I'm not sure

1430
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:40,559
Speaker 1: exactly where I'm at when I'm triggered, like what is

1431
01:17:40,600 --> 01:17:44,680
Speaker 1: being triggered? What is this related to? Or what is

1432
01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:49,280
Speaker 1: this experience because it's usually something that's closely related that

1433
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:53,120
Speaker 1: will be a trigger, And then trying to figure out

1434
01:17:53,200 --> 01:17:56,519
Speaker 1: where where is it coming from? You know, what age

1435
01:17:56,680 --> 01:18:01,679
Speaker 1: was I what is the source of it? Because those

1436
01:18:01,680 --> 01:18:04,840
Speaker 1: things in being able to put those things together and

1437
01:18:05,040 --> 01:18:09,519
Speaker 1: process it is what allows you to finally kind of

1438
01:18:09,560 --> 01:18:15,520
Speaker 1: put those things to rest. It's processed trauma that finally

1439
01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:20,120
Speaker 1: goes into the subconscious. A lot of people talk about

1440
01:18:20,160 --> 01:18:24,600
Speaker 1: EMDR therapy, which is very useful as a way and

1441
01:18:24,640 --> 01:18:29,320
Speaker 1: as a tool of processing trauma so that it can

1442
01:18:29,360 --> 01:18:32,360
Speaker 1: be put into the memory banks and put to rest.

1443
01:18:32,800 --> 01:18:36,360
Speaker 1: And that's something I just discovered this past year in

1444
01:18:36,360 --> 01:18:39,000
Speaker 1: twenty twenty amazing. I mean, twenty twenty was a really

1445
01:18:39,080 --> 01:18:42,400
Speaker 1: rough year for everybody, so it was very triggering for me.

1446
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:46,679
Speaker 1: And it actually triggered in June of twenty twenty softer

1447
01:18:46,720 --> 01:18:50,280
Speaker 1: three or four months of living with the global pandemic

1448
01:18:50,320 --> 01:18:53,000
Speaker 1: that we all lived through, I developed a case of

1449
01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:58,200
Speaker 1: chronic hives, which was very tied into the trauma of

1450
01:18:58,240 --> 01:19:01,080
Speaker 1: that year, and it just brought up a lot of

1451
01:19:01,120 --> 01:19:03,920
Speaker 1: old stuff. It was more than my body could process

1452
01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:07,920
Speaker 1: and it came out in the form of hives, which

1453
01:19:08,160 --> 01:19:11,920
Speaker 1: I had for six months June through the end of

1454
01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:16,040
Speaker 1: the year, and I finally figured out I needed to

1455
01:19:16,040 --> 01:19:20,120
Speaker 1: go back to therapy and do EMDR treatment, which I

1456
01:19:20,160 --> 01:19:22,000
Speaker 1: did the couple last couple of months of the year,

1457
01:19:22,040 --> 01:19:25,200
Speaker 1: and then finally in December the hives cleared up, but

1458
01:19:25,320 --> 01:19:28,120
Speaker 1: it was doing the EMDR therapy that helped that.

1459
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:30,920
Speaker 3: The AMDR has been amazing for so many people. I know,

1460
01:19:31,040 --> 01:19:33,040
Speaker 3: I'm I'm so happy to hear it's working for you.

1461
01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:33,599
Speaker 3: That's great.

1462
01:19:33,840 --> 01:19:37,519
Speaker 1: Now, children are very resilient. I mean, we grow up

1463
01:19:37,920 --> 01:19:40,839
Speaker 1: and we become adults, and you know, we live our lives,

1464
01:19:41,240 --> 01:19:43,680
Speaker 1: especially if you can get out of that circumstance, and

1465
01:19:43,720 --> 01:19:46,160
Speaker 1: a lot of people just do the best they can

1466
01:19:46,240 --> 01:19:50,160
Speaker 1: and they rise above so many obstacles and hurdles that

1467
01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:52,880
Speaker 1: that kind of life puts in their way. And it

1468
01:19:52,880 --> 01:19:56,080
Speaker 1: takes a lot of grit and determination to rise above

1469
01:19:56,160 --> 01:19:58,160
Speaker 1: it and to create a life for yourself that you're

1470
01:19:58,200 --> 01:20:01,519
Speaker 1: proud of. And it's not easy to do, but it

1471
01:20:01,600 --> 01:20:05,439
Speaker 1: is possible to do. And it's even more possible when

1472
01:20:05,960 --> 01:20:11,000
Speaker 1: you have the help of professional counselors and therapists and

1473
01:20:11,120 --> 01:20:14,720
Speaker 1: people who understand the nature of the damage that was

1474
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:19,920
Speaker 1: done so that you can process and heal right those difficult,

1475
01:20:19,920 --> 01:20:21,799
Speaker 1: difficult things that you endured as a child.

1476
01:20:22,479 --> 01:20:24,719
Speaker 3: That's a really good point. I think a lot of people,

1477
01:20:25,240 --> 01:20:28,320
Speaker 3: myself included when I was younger, want to believe that

1478
01:20:28,840 --> 01:20:32,400
Speaker 3: we've got it. Because we have it well compartmentalized for

1479
01:20:32,439 --> 01:20:34,599
Speaker 3: so long, we're like I've got this on my own,

1480
01:20:34,720 --> 01:20:36,800
Speaker 3: Like I don't need a professional. I'm not like a

1481
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:39,720
Speaker 3: person who needs therapy. But the truth is, like a

1482
01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:42,719
Speaker 3: professional can see things that you can't and can help

1483
01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:45,720
Speaker 3: walk you through the parts of yourself that are, you know,

1484
01:20:45,760 --> 01:20:47,360
Speaker 3: too difficult to go through alone. So that's a really

1485
01:20:47,360 --> 01:20:49,479
Speaker 3: good point. So if anyone's listening and hasn't gone a

1486
01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:51,400
Speaker 3: therapy yet, we recommend that.

1487
01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:55,760
Speaker 1: This is your invitation. And it doesn't even have to

1488
01:20:55,800 --> 01:20:58,559
Speaker 1: start with a therapist. I mean, some people have a

1489
01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:01,240
Speaker 1: lot of resistance to that idea, and so I would

1490
01:21:01,280 --> 01:21:05,320
Speaker 1: just invite you to consider that as a possibility. I mean,

1491
01:21:05,360 --> 01:21:08,280
Speaker 1: if you have health insurance generally it's covered. You just

1492
01:21:08,320 --> 01:21:10,479
Speaker 1: pay a copay and you go see a professional therapist,

1493
01:21:10,560 --> 01:21:13,640
Speaker 1: you know. Or if you don't have insurance and you

1494
01:21:13,720 --> 01:21:17,280
Speaker 1: live close to a college that offers, you know, counseling degrees,

1495
01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:21,680
Speaker 1: they have people there that offer counseling and it might

1496
01:21:21,720 --> 01:21:26,040
Speaker 1: be somebody that's not experienced, but here's the key, being

1497
01:21:26,080 --> 01:21:31,120
Speaker 1: able to talk about your experiences with somebody who is

1498
01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:36,200
Speaker 1: compassionate and empathetic. Yeah, and those people who go for

1499
01:21:36,280 --> 01:21:40,160
Speaker 1: those counseling degrees are there because they're compassionate and empathetic

1500
01:21:40,280 --> 01:21:44,160
Speaker 1: people generally speaking. And so the best way to heal

1501
01:21:44,280 --> 01:21:47,200
Speaker 1: is to just tell your story. And I'm going to

1502
01:21:47,280 --> 01:21:50,559
Speaker 1: quote Brene Brown again. Yes, Brene says, you know, tell

1503
01:21:50,600 --> 01:21:53,840
Speaker 1: your story to people who have earned the right to

1504
01:21:53,920 --> 01:21:59,320
Speaker 1: hear your story. You don't take these sacred internal things

1505
01:21:59,360 --> 01:22:01,559
Speaker 1: that have been and it hid in a way and

1506
01:22:01,640 --> 01:22:04,840
Speaker 1: tucked away inside of you for your whole life and

1507
01:22:04,920 --> 01:22:08,320
Speaker 1: just go start shouting it from the mountaintops when you

1508
01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:12,400
Speaker 1: haven't healed. Like here, I am shouting from the mountaintops

1509
01:22:12,439 --> 01:22:16,599
Speaker 1: basically telling my whole story. But I'm a whole decade

1510
01:22:16,680 --> 01:22:21,160
Speaker 1: into my healing journey. And so when you haven't healed

1511
01:22:21,439 --> 01:22:24,200
Speaker 1: and you haven't told your story, you tell your story

1512
01:22:24,240 --> 01:22:26,240
Speaker 1: to people who have earned the right to hear it.

1513
01:22:26,880 --> 01:22:29,960
Speaker 1: That can be a therapist or a professional counselor, but

1514
01:22:30,080 --> 01:22:34,360
Speaker 1: it can also just be a really good friend. Healing

1515
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:38,559
Speaker 1: starts when you begin to tell your story. And if

1516
01:22:38,600 --> 01:22:42,320
Speaker 1: you don't have the kind of friend who can listen

1517
01:22:42,360 --> 01:22:45,759
Speaker 1: to your story and hold it with a sacred level

1518
01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:51,759
Speaker 1: of tender, compassionate care, you can journal your story true

1519
01:22:53,000 --> 01:22:57,720
Speaker 1: and That is another way of externalizing the story. And

1520
01:22:57,760 --> 01:23:01,519
Speaker 1: when you externalize it, it allows you to see with

1521
01:23:01,680 --> 01:23:06,040
Speaker 1: your adult eyes the things that happen to you, instead

1522
01:23:06,080 --> 01:23:09,599
Speaker 1: of only seeing him through the eyes of the injured

1523
01:23:09,760 --> 01:23:13,200
Speaker 1: child within you, the wounded child within you, Because while

1524
01:23:13,240 --> 01:23:16,559
Speaker 1: it's still internal, you have that little child still inside

1525
01:23:16,560 --> 01:23:19,880
Speaker 1: of you. I call mine little Anna, and little Anna's

1526
01:23:19,920 --> 01:23:23,599
Speaker 1: still in there. Little Anna's still wounded. And there are

1527
01:23:23,680 --> 01:23:26,920
Speaker 1: times when you know she kicks and screams and throws

1528
01:23:26,920 --> 01:23:31,120
Speaker 1: a fit, you know, and it's adult Anna's job to

1529
01:23:31,960 --> 01:23:35,080
Speaker 1: say all the things that she needs to hear. You

1530
01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:39,040
Speaker 1: know what, You're safe now, I've got this, I'm taking

1531
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:43,000
Speaker 1: care of you. I'm the one who's in charge now. Yeah,

1532
01:23:43,120 --> 01:23:46,040
Speaker 1: nothing is going to happen to you right. Oh.

1533
01:23:46,120 --> 01:23:48,000
Speaker 5: You know what that's like that quote, that's like be

1534
01:23:48,120 --> 01:23:51,000
Speaker 5: the person you needed when you were a little kid,

1535
01:23:51,160 --> 01:23:53,439
Speaker 5: be that in the world, and be that for yourself.

1536
01:23:53,520 --> 01:23:54,240
Speaker 4: Duh.

1537
01:23:54,360 --> 01:23:57,840
Speaker 1: Yes. And so when you know that little child is

1538
01:23:57,880 --> 01:24:03,680
Speaker 1: inside and weeping and wailing and kicking and stomping, you

1539
01:24:03,960 --> 01:24:07,679
Speaker 1: are like the ideal person that can talk to that child.

1540
01:24:07,840 --> 01:24:08,360
Speaker 1: I like that.

1541
01:24:08,479 --> 01:24:11,439
Speaker 3: Anna, sounds like you should be a therapist. I feel

1542
01:24:12,400 --> 01:24:14,559
Speaker 3: heal just listening to you talk about this.

1543
01:24:15,160 --> 01:24:19,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just so passionate about people who have

1544
01:24:19,720 --> 01:24:21,599
Speaker 1: experienced the kinds of things that I have.

1545
01:24:22,400 --> 01:24:22,679
Speaker 3: Now.

1546
01:24:22,960 --> 01:24:25,559
Speaker 1: Healing is a journey, and it's a journey that I

1547
01:24:25,600 --> 01:24:27,519
Speaker 1: am going to be on for the rest of my life.

1548
01:24:27,720 --> 01:24:30,559
Speaker 1: I have a radical acceptance of the fact that it's

1549
01:24:30,800 --> 01:24:34,000
Speaker 1: my job to continue my healing journey and to continue

1550
01:24:34,080 --> 01:24:38,400
Speaker 1: moving forward and seeking out those things. I mean, just

1551
01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:42,720
Speaker 1: me talking today is part of my healing journey. Me

1552
01:24:42,840 --> 01:24:46,640
Speaker 1: saying yes to this interview was because I know just

1553
01:24:46,760 --> 01:24:49,320
Speaker 1: how powerful it is to tell your story to people

1554
01:24:49,360 --> 01:24:51,640
Speaker 1: who have earned the right to hear your story. And

1555
01:24:51,720 --> 01:24:53,639
Speaker 1: so this is a part of my healing journey.

1556
01:24:53,840 --> 01:24:57,440
Speaker 3: Well, we appreciate being part of that journey. What remarkable

1557
01:24:57,600 --> 01:25:00,000
Speaker 3: progress you've made and what a long way you've gone

1558
01:25:00,439 --> 01:25:03,559
Speaker 3: for how much you've experienced. I mean, it's incredible. You

1559
01:25:03,600 --> 01:25:06,160
Speaker 3: seem like you have such a healthy perspective now and

1560
01:25:06,439 --> 01:25:08,439
Speaker 3: have really come through it in a very big way.

1561
01:25:08,479 --> 01:25:09,479
Speaker 3: I just think it's amazing.

1562
01:25:09,840 --> 01:25:12,080
Speaker 1: It's been a long journey, and so part of my

1563
01:25:12,160 --> 01:25:16,559
Speaker 1: healing is it redeems some of the losses that we've

1564
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:21,080
Speaker 1: experienced just being able to help others. It's my mission

1565
01:25:21,120 --> 01:25:28,720
Speaker 1: in life to tell people, if you've experienced childhood trauma, abuse, neglect, abandonment,

1566
01:25:29,120 --> 01:25:33,120
Speaker 1: that it's possible to heal from those things, to create

1567
01:25:33,160 --> 01:25:36,400
Speaker 1: a life for yourself that is worth living, that you're

1568
01:25:36,479 --> 01:25:40,960
Speaker 1: proud of. There's no magic pill. There's no place, you know,

1569
01:25:41,200 --> 01:25:46,439
Speaker 1: fantasy world place where everything is now hunky dory and

1570
01:25:46,920 --> 01:25:50,760
Speaker 1: comes up roses. That's just not how life is for anybody.

1571
01:25:51,240 --> 01:25:55,439
Speaker 1: Life is hard and difficult, and you know, having friends

1572
01:25:55,479 --> 01:25:58,360
Speaker 1: and people that you care about and loved ones and

1573
01:25:58,439 --> 01:26:02,280
Speaker 1: family all that around you make it worthwhile and make

1574
01:26:02,360 --> 01:26:05,960
Speaker 1: it good. But making it better involves healing.

1575
01:26:06,560 --> 01:26:08,639
Speaker 4: What is the name of your book again, It's.

1576
01:26:08,479 --> 01:26:12,760
Speaker 1: Called The Polygamis's Daughter. It's unavailable at any bookseller. I

1577
01:26:12,840 --> 01:26:16,479
Speaker 1: read the audible edition. You did, okay, and then if

1578
01:26:16,520 --> 01:26:18,720
Speaker 1: you have an Audible account. Usually if you already have

1579
01:26:18,720 --> 01:26:21,280
Speaker 1: an Audible account, it's part of Audible Plus, so you

1580
01:26:21,320 --> 01:26:23,200
Speaker 1: can listen to it without it costing you a credit.

1581
01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:27,360
Speaker 1: Oh same, and you can check it out from your

1582
01:26:27,360 --> 01:26:28,320
Speaker 1: public library too.

1583
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:29,120
Speaker 4: Amazing.

1584
01:26:29,680 --> 01:26:31,920
Speaker 1: It helps authors if you buy their book from Amazon

1585
01:26:31,960 --> 01:26:34,240
Speaker 1: or Barnes and Noble or you know, other bookstores. But

1586
01:26:34,840 --> 01:26:37,200
Speaker 1: if that's in your budget, you know there's ways to

1587
01:26:37,240 --> 01:26:40,200
Speaker 1: get books because our country is awesome about that.

1588
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:43,080
Speaker 4: Yes, I can't wait to read it.

1589
01:26:43,160 --> 01:26:44,880
Speaker 3: Pretty sure you checked it out from the library like

1590
01:26:44,960 --> 01:26:47,559
Speaker 3: two or three years ago before we had even ever spoken.

1591
01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:49,559
Speaker 3: If I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure it was your

1592
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:51,640
Speaker 3: book and it was amazing, and now I'm going to

1593
01:26:51,720 --> 01:26:54,040
Speaker 3: have to go buy it so i can actually give you,

1594
01:26:54,240 --> 01:26:55,080
Speaker 3: give you a piece of it.

1595
01:26:55,320 --> 01:26:56,880
Speaker 4: We'll leave you an Amazon review.

1596
01:26:57,040 --> 01:26:59,800
Speaker 1: Thank you. That's the best thing. I have almost a

1597
01:27:00,360 --> 01:27:03,719
Speaker 1: reviews and it's like my goal to get to one thousand.

1598
01:27:03,800 --> 01:27:08,120
Speaker 1: So yes, please, if anybody reads the book, please go

1599
01:27:08,240 --> 01:27:10,760
Speaker 1: give it a review and help me get to one

1600
01:27:10,760 --> 01:27:14,040
Speaker 1: thousand because a thousand is the tipping point on Amazon

1601
01:27:14,200 --> 01:27:17,599
Speaker 1: for books, and so I'm so close. I have like

1602
01:27:17,720 --> 01:27:19,839
Speaker 1: nine hundred and thirty or something.

1603
01:27:20,080 --> 01:27:21,960
Speaker 3: Oh, we got you, we got got it.

1604
01:27:22,120 --> 01:27:25,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so good to be at this juncture, to

1605
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:26,679
Speaker 1: be at this place in my life.

1606
01:27:26,760 --> 01:27:28,559
Speaker 3: Do you have any final thoughts? And also do you

1607
01:27:28,600 --> 01:27:31,479
Speaker 3: have social media that you'd want people to have your

1608
01:27:31,520 --> 01:27:31,960
Speaker 3: handle for?

1609
01:27:32,160 --> 01:27:35,719
Speaker 1: I mean whatever social media you're you like, I'm probably

1610
01:27:35,720 --> 01:27:38,439
Speaker 1: there and my handle is on a k LeBaron my

1611
01:27:38,520 --> 01:27:42,120
Speaker 1: website is on a lebaran dot com and if you're

1612
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:46,439
Speaker 1: super into the whole polygamist family thing, I have a

1613
01:27:46,520 --> 01:27:53,400
Speaker 1: TikTok account ah where I've answered a zillion questions about

1614
01:27:53,479 --> 01:27:55,400
Speaker 1: polygamy on tikkok.

1615
01:27:56,439 --> 01:27:57,120
Speaker 3: Amazing.

1616
01:27:57,400 --> 01:28:00,360
Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much for taking the time to

1617
01:27:59,880 --> 01:28:00,680
Speaker 4: talk to us.

1618
01:28:00,840 --> 01:28:02,679
Speaker 3: Yes, we appreciate it so much.

1619
01:28:03,080 --> 01:28:05,800
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. And it's an honor to

1620
01:28:05,880 --> 01:28:09,679
Speaker 1: get to talk to your listeners and especially the ones

1621
01:28:09,760 --> 01:28:12,320
Speaker 1: who my message resonates with.

1622
01:28:12,600 --> 01:28:13,559
Speaker 4: Amen. I love it.

1623
01:28:13,960 --> 01:28:15,920
Speaker 3: Oh, okay, what a story.

1624
01:28:16,200 --> 01:28:16,479
Speaker 4: Hmm.

1625
01:28:16,760 --> 01:28:19,200
Speaker 3: She has been through so much it's crazy. She's so cool.

1626
01:28:19,439 --> 01:28:20,280
Speaker 4: I really like her.

1627
01:28:20,400 --> 01:28:25,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, so, Megan. Yeah, do you think that

1628
01:28:26,160 --> 01:28:30,760
Speaker 3: you would find the LeBaron family appealing if you were

1629
01:28:30,880 --> 01:28:32,519
Speaker 3: in Anna's mother's situation?

1630
01:28:33,000 --> 01:28:33,240
Speaker 1: Oh?

1631
01:28:33,360 --> 01:28:35,439
Speaker 5: I mean, I like the twist at the end of this.

1632
01:28:35,600 --> 01:28:38,519
Speaker 5: If I was in someone else's situation, that's kind of

1633
01:28:38,560 --> 01:28:40,000
Speaker 5: a new way of looking at it.

1634
01:28:40,280 --> 01:28:44,320
Speaker 3: Well, she was mainstream LDS, right, and then she met

1635
01:28:44,439 --> 01:28:49,360
Speaker 3: Urville and joined the group, right, So yeah, charismatic man

1636
01:28:49,800 --> 01:28:51,840
Speaker 3: has lots of wives. Um.

1637
01:28:53,920 --> 01:28:58,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I could see myself totally getting pulled into

1638
01:28:58,320 --> 01:29:00,920
Speaker 5: something like that if I was just like, oh man,

1639
01:29:01,000 --> 01:29:04,720
Speaker 5: this dude is like so hot and cool and I

1640
01:29:04,760 --> 01:29:05,680
Speaker 5: already believe this.

1641
01:29:05,800 --> 01:29:09,479
Speaker 4: Stuff and like, now it's just more cool. Yeah, for sure.

1642
01:29:09,840 --> 01:29:14,519
Speaker 3: For sure, it's a classic tale, right, charismatic man convinced

1643
01:29:14,520 --> 01:29:16,360
Speaker 3: this woman he's the real prophet.

1644
01:29:16,560 --> 01:29:18,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I think ones that came down to

1645
01:29:18,840 --> 01:29:22,360
Speaker 5: the killing and stuff, I'd probably bounce, but I'd like

1646
01:29:22,439 --> 01:29:25,719
Speaker 5: to believe that. But yeah, it didn't sound too awful

1647
01:29:25,800 --> 01:29:26,280
Speaker 5: to start with.

1648
01:29:28,080 --> 01:29:31,360
Speaker 3: I hear you. You know, first glance, Bluemy not appealing

1649
01:29:31,360 --> 01:29:34,479
Speaker 3: to me first glance. Pretty much everything about their group

1650
01:29:34,520 --> 01:29:36,320
Speaker 3: not appealing to me. But who's to say.

1651
01:29:36,439 --> 01:29:38,519
Speaker 5: If it is appealing to you, then this is just like,

1652
01:29:38,760 --> 01:29:40,519
Speaker 5: you know, instead of going to a concert, it's like

1653
01:29:40,560 --> 01:29:44,200
Speaker 5: the music festival version that was really smart.

1654
01:29:46,640 --> 01:29:48,800
Speaker 3: I think that if I were a member of the

1655
01:29:49,200 --> 01:29:53,879
Speaker 3: DESNAT community online, I would probably find it reasonably appealing

1656
01:29:54,000 --> 01:29:56,800
Speaker 3: for sure, although they're like ride or die for the

1657
01:29:56,920 --> 01:30:00,320
Speaker 3: current mainstream LDS prophet. But for sure some of those

1658
01:30:00,320 --> 01:30:02,559
Speaker 3: people are gonna get swindled by some self proclaimed prophet

1659
01:30:02,600 --> 01:30:04,560
Speaker 3: at some point. It's gonna happen, for sure. That's the

1660
01:30:04,600 --> 01:30:06,320
Speaker 3: thing with this religion. You know, when you got a

1661
01:30:06,320 --> 01:30:08,839
Speaker 3: guy who just showed up one day was like angel

1662
01:30:08,840 --> 01:30:12,120
Speaker 3: spoke to me, I'm the prophet, really leaves room for

1663
01:30:12,160 --> 01:30:14,160
Speaker 3: anyone to show up and be like, Angel spoke to me.

1664
01:30:14,680 --> 01:30:15,479
Speaker 3: I'm the prophet.

1665
01:30:15,960 --> 01:30:16,839
Speaker 4: I'm the prophet.

1666
01:30:17,640 --> 01:30:20,080
Speaker 3: And you know what, guys, Angel spoke to me and

1667
01:30:20,120 --> 01:30:20,839
Speaker 3: I'm the prophet.

1668
01:30:20,960 --> 01:30:22,439
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, great, you're the prophet.

1669
01:30:22,600 --> 01:30:26,240
Speaker 5: You know you guys just like keep listening and we're

1670
01:30:26,240 --> 01:30:27,040
Speaker 5: starting in cult.

1671
01:30:27,040 --> 01:30:27,639
Speaker 1: It's fine.

1672
01:30:28,200 --> 01:30:32,240
Speaker 5: Join us in the woods and remember to follow your gut,

1673
01:30:32,920 --> 01:30:38,160
Speaker 5: watch out for red flags, and never ever trust me.

1674
01:30:39,240 --> 01:30:47,439
Speaker 4: I huddle up.

1675
01:30:48,000 --> 01:30:49,240
Speaker 3: It's me, Angelies.

1676
01:30:49,600 --> 01:30:50,160
Speaker 4: You can't beat the.

1677
01:30:50,160 --> 01:30:53,439
Speaker 2: Postgame burger fries, right, nobod else you can't beat the

1678
01:30:53,520 --> 01:30:57,000
Speaker 2: Angel Rey special. Let's break it down my favorite barbecue sauce,

1679
01:30:57,160 --> 01:31:01,559
Speaker 2: American cheese, Christy bacon, pickles, and a sessame seed bun

1680
01:31:01,840 --> 01:31:04,240
Speaker 2: of course, and don't forget the fries and a drink.

1681
01:31:04,400 --> 01:31:05,600
Speaker 2: It's gonna be a high seed for me.

1682
01:31:05,960 --> 01:31:06,360
Speaker 1: Sound her.

1683
01:31:07,520 --> 01:31:09,120
Speaker 2: All you have to do together it is beat me

1684
01:31:09,160 --> 01:31:12,200
Speaker 2: in a one on one. I'm just playing Get the

1685
01:31:12,240 --> 01:31:13,760
Speaker 2: Agent respectual on McDonald's now.

1686
01:31:13,960 --> 01:31:16,360
Speaker 3: Bah bah bah bah. I'm participating in restaurants for a

1687
01:31:16,400 --> 01:31:16,800
Speaker 3: limited time.