Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When
Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in a brid egg
Speaker 2: Friday Egg, the.
Speaker 3: Dreaded Frida Egg Friday fridagg Bride Egg.
Speaker 1: Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the.
Speaker 2: All right, welcome back to another edition of the Friday
Speaker 2: Golf Podcast. I am here with my wonderful co host,
Speaker 2: Garrett Morrison. Garrett, how are you doing?
Speaker 3: Hello? We are in person.
Speaker 2: We're at the Dratty House.
Speaker 3: We're at the Drafty House in Augusta, Georgia, and it's
Speaker 3: it's great to be in person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is wonderful. Garrett. You just wrapped up a
Speaker 2: couple of days at Annwha. I just wrapped up getting
Speaker 2: on site, checking in, getting a milling about Augusta National
Speaker 2: for a day. We're here. So this is the beginning
Speaker 2: of Master's week. This is Sunday afternoon recording, and we
Speaker 2: got a fun little activity. I it was a hard activity.
Speaker 2: I have to say. We are going to rank. So
Speaker 2: I ranked one through eighteen the holes of Augustin National,
Speaker 2: and you ranked one through eighteen the wholes of Augustin National.
Speaker 2: I don't think we set criteria you could. You know,
Speaker 2: this is definitely not like I didn't. I didn't go
Speaker 2: about it as a ranking of like holes with the
Speaker 2: most drama or the greatest moments in Master's history. I
Speaker 2: kind of just looked at them whole by hole. So
Speaker 2: I want to preface that here. You know, I'm sure
Speaker 2: when we're talking about the holes, some you know, people
Speaker 2: are going to be upset that maybe a certain certain
Speaker 2: holes or places. You know, this was just opinion everybody.
Speaker 2: I would urge everybody to try and do it themselves.
Speaker 2: It's actually like really hard. I like got to a
Speaker 2: point and I was like, wait, I can't believe this
Speaker 2: hole is so far down, you know. And then I
Speaker 2: was looking at what was ahead of it, and I
Speaker 2: was like, I don't think there's really a spot. How
Speaker 2: do you find that?
Speaker 3: There's a lot of less good holes here? So if
Speaker 3: a hole is in the bottom half of the ranking here,
Speaker 3: we're not saying it's bad. This is one of the
Speaker 3: great courses in the world. Obviously, it's great because a
Speaker 3: lot of the holes are really really good. So if
Speaker 3: a whole place is fourteenth out of eighteen, that doesn't
Speaker 3: mean it's bad. It just means that we think other
Speaker 3: holes are better. Yeah, criteria is a you know, that's
Speaker 3: an interesting question here, because even if we're just ranking
Speaker 3: them architecturally and not based on memories or moments or whatever,
Speaker 3: there's still a lot of ways to rank holes architecturally.
Speaker 3: You know. Should we be talking about them as competitive
Speaker 3: elite golf holes, like what they do to the players
Speaker 3: in the Masters, or should we be ranking them, you know,
Speaker 3: from the perspective of amateurs or even just all golfers. Right,
Speaker 3: should we be ranking them from the championship tees or
Speaker 3: the member tees, because those are very different golf holes.
Speaker 3: I ended up going kind of with the master's perspective, right,
Speaker 3: how well did these holes function in the Masters? And
Speaker 3: so right way, I think.
Speaker 2: I even thought about it that much, you know, I
Speaker 2: kind of just I just went off.
Speaker 3: You just went off feeling is this whole better than
Speaker 3: that one?
Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you what. I started trying to do
Speaker 2: this in in Apple Notes. I use Apple Notes a
Speaker 2: lot to write. It's become my new like word processor, actually,
Speaker 2: but I started doing that with like a numbered list,
Speaker 2: and then I was in the media center and one
Speaker 2: of the coolest things in the Media Center. Brendan hates them,
Speaker 2: but I think they're really neat. Is they have these
Speaker 2: old notebooks that they you know, I don't think anybody
Speaker 2: in the press uses it really now I haven't even
Speaker 2: seen them, but they're these old notebooks. They're like they're
Speaker 2: like an eight by eleven. They've got the master's logo across.
Speaker 2: And it was like, clearly how like old journalists used
Speaker 2: to chronicle rounds. It's got a player named Date Round
Speaker 2: and you could track, like, you know what clubs they
Speaker 2: were hitting, the number of putts, and there's a space
Speaker 2: for notes, but it lists every hole, the yardage in
Speaker 2: the bar. And so it created this awesome way to
Speaker 2: rank them because I just filled in under the club
Speaker 2: section all my rankings and it's it was an amazing
Speaker 2: way to visualize it. I'll post a picture of it
Speaker 2: with the pod.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really nice. And by the way, I wanted
Speaker 3: to give some acknowledgment to where we got this idea.
Speaker 3: This is a great account name Jean van de Veld
Speaker 3: Revenge account is the is the name of the account
Speaker 3: that proposed to us back in February. You know, he says,
Speaker 3: this is probably a very stupid theme. But I'd love
Speaker 3: to hear a fry a golf podcast episode titled ranking
Speaker 3: all eighteen holes at Augusta National. And you know, we
Speaker 3: thought that was that was a pretty decent idea, something
Speaker 3: fun to do kind of midweek Masters week.
Speaker 2: As I mentioned at the top, we are at the
Speaker 2: Dratty House. B. Dratty is our great longtime apparel partner.
Speaker 2: It's spring. I think this is a great time to
Speaker 2: examine what you got going in your closet right now, Garrett,
Speaker 2: you were out on like a crisp day at Agussa.
Speaker 2: What what'd you rock? What was? What were what were
Speaker 2: your options from Dratty?
Speaker 3: Now? Already this ad read is going off the rails
Speaker 3: because I don't know the exact term for it. But
Speaker 3: I was wearing a B. Dratty hoodie, the.
Speaker 2: One that you and I saw, the Proctor hoodie. The
Speaker 2: Proctor hood is great.
Speaker 3: I would wear that every day if I could, If
Speaker 3: if people would like let me wear the same clothes
Speaker 3: every day, I would wear that every day.
Speaker 2: If you had like or five of them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just need four or five of them in
Speaker 3: like different colors. I think even then my wife would
Speaker 3: be like, why are you wearing the same style of
Speaker 3: hoodie every day, but I think I would go for it.
Speaker 3: It's so comfortable. It's just the right kind of thickness,
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's great.
Speaker 2: So that's the Procter hoodie. I you know, it made
Speaker 2: me think of the you know, A related related item
Speaker 2: that they make is the Russell Kru neck, which is
Speaker 2: another great one. I remember I was getting I was
Speaker 2: getting ready. We were going on like a casual date night,
Speaker 2: and I was I put on clothes and I was like,
Speaker 2: what do you think about my outfit? My wife, you know,
Speaker 2: she always asked me, and I was wearing like a
Speaker 2: pair of pants and a Russell Kru neck and She's like,
Speaker 2: I mean you wear that like every day. So there's
Speaker 2: this stuff. This is stuff I live in.
Speaker 3: But she wasn't offended by it. She was like, Okay,
Speaker 3: you still look good. Fine, yeah, special, but it's fine.
Speaker 2: So the crew dock, the Russell crew, the Proctor hoodie
Speaker 2: great great items if you're in like a spring climate
Speaker 2: where it's a little chili. I just got back from
Speaker 2: Northern Ireland, which was like I think, like peak spring,
Speaker 2: like kind of gnarly spring golf weather in March I
Speaker 2: wore every day there, I wore different jackpolo. So the
Speaker 2: long sleeve Jackpolo, I'm not. I'm not gonna lie. Before
Speaker 2: they sent me one of these, it was one. I
Speaker 2: was like not into the long sleeve polo. Now I'm very,
Speaker 2: very like. I wear them a lot. I really like them.
Speaker 2: They're like the perfect if it's gonna be fifty degrees
Speaker 2: in the morning, item to wear it is. It's great.
Speaker 2: If you throw a vest on with it, you are
Speaker 2: like your Primetime You're like perfectly layered. So if you
Speaker 2: use the promo code TFE thirty, that's TFE thirty at
Speaker 2: b draddy dot com, you get thirty percent off. Big
Speaker 2: thanks to them for uh supporting what we do, supporting
Speaker 2: our week here down to Augusta National and the d House,
Speaker 2: supporting the House, supporting the House.
Speaker 3: Got to have a roof over our heads.
Speaker 2: Exactly a lot of fun happens in this house this week.
Speaker 2: So all right, let's get to our holes. Garrett, you're
Speaker 2: the guest here. Do you want to go one through
Speaker 2: eighteen or do you want to go eighteen through eighteen
Speaker 2: through one? You want to oh god, we're going to
Speaker 2: start with the negatives.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but we got it in a positive note. We're
Speaker 3: not going to hook people send people out on a
Speaker 3: high right.
Speaker 2: We're hooking people in with the with what we think
Speaker 2: is the worst hole at Augusta National Right.
Speaker 3: We're going negative. I don't think we are the problem
Speaker 3: with media.
Speaker 2: I want to be clear here. I don't. I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't think anybody should be able to characterize this
Speaker 2: as the worstule. This is my eighteenth favorite.
Speaker 1: This is the.
Speaker 3: Least good hole. Yeah, I think, what.
Speaker 2: Do you have?
Speaker 3: You got seven?
Speaker 2: I'll get seven too, I thought, I mean I almost
Speaker 2: I I was doing this and I was like, I know,
Speaker 2: Garrett's gonna have seven as the worst. And I almost zigged,
Speaker 2: just as zig just so we had something different. But
Speaker 2: I couldn't get myself to do that. Why why do
Speaker 2: you have it here? It's probably the same reasoning as me.
Speaker 3: I think it's just the ultimate example of what tigerproofing
Speaker 3: has rot. Not every bad thing that has happened to
Speaker 3: that hole is a result immediately of tigerproofing. There have
Speaker 3: been a lot of trees on that hole for a
Speaker 3: long time, but now it's just long. It's got trees
Speaker 3: really close on both sides. The fairway is really narrow
Speaker 3: until it opens up towards.
Speaker 2: The can I tell you another little thing about that fairway.
Speaker 2: It's so hard to hit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because if you go off the right side.
Speaker 2: It can't you can't really see it from TV, but
Speaker 2: the fairway slopes pretty a pretty good click clip left
Speaker 2: to right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's like it's.
Speaker 2: So hard to hit, it's so narrow. Functionally, the ten
Speaker 2: the ten yards of the right half of the fairway
Speaker 2: mean you're going to go in the rough and then
Speaker 2: you're probably gonna be blocked out.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, you've got tree trouble. And yeah, you've summed
Speaker 3: it up right there. It's just it's not it's you
Speaker 3: know when I say it's not the hole, it was
Speaker 3: meant to be. Obviously, as soon as Perry Maxwell lengthened
Speaker 3: that hole and put the green up on the hill
Speaker 3: instead of having it down below in the valley where
Speaker 3: it was originally, the hole kind of took on its identity.
Speaker 3: You know, It's it's not quirky. It has not been
Speaker 3: a quirky hole for a long time. But I think
Speaker 3: the narrowing and the lengthening have just kind of turned
Speaker 3: it into a slog. It's a place where you know,
Speaker 3: they're just trying to keep the scores a little bit higher.
Speaker 3: And I understand that, but you know that's why it's
Speaker 3: the least good.
Speaker 2: Hole, all right. So my devil's advocate take on, like,
Speaker 2: how you could you know if you love seven. I
Speaker 2: think this is what people might say is listen, it's
Speaker 2: the most execution t shot out there, and maybe the
Speaker 2: golf course from a sense of tea shot variety, should
Speaker 2: have one hole where it's like you have to hit
Speaker 2: it really straight. I think like Augusta has a lot
Speaker 2: of like pretty generous corridors where the corridor space you
Speaker 2: have every hole you want to be a certain spot,
Speaker 2: but the corridor spaces are fairly wide. Now, they might say,
Speaker 2: in terms of variety, this gives it one very narrow
Speaker 2: hole that you have to execute on this narrow thing.
Speaker 2: It's a change up from the rest of the course.
Speaker 2: It's a different window. And then the other side is
Speaker 2: there's been a lot of really exciting moments that have
Speaker 2: happened from the trees approaching that green. There have been
Speaker 2: some cool shots over the years.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think the green itself is pretty interesting.
Speaker 3: It is idiot. It slopes off pretty hard to the
Speaker 3: left side. There's a number of different sections to it.
Speaker 3: So again, this is a national There's gonna be a
Speaker 3: lot of cool things about any individual hole, but this
Speaker 3: is just the one I think of when I think
Speaker 3: of what has kind of gone the wrong direction for
Speaker 3: me at Augusta in the past twenty five years or so.
Speaker 2: And I think like every one of these holes, for
Speaker 2: the most part, has a really interesting green. And what's
Speaker 2: cool about this green is it's the most it's really
Speaker 2: the most shallow green, and it it's just like you
Speaker 2: have to hit a really really great second shot here,
Speaker 2: and it's cool green.
Speaker 3: So all right, why don't we go with your seventeenth
Speaker 3: ranked hole?
Speaker 2: Is my seventeenth I have this in chronological or my computer,
Speaker 2: but I'm using the list here. This is krock going
Speaker 2: to be controversial. I have eighteen. It's my seventeenth ranked hole.
Speaker 3: Okay, where is what on your list? Let me see.
Speaker 3: I was just numbering them because I have them in
Speaker 3: order instead of like numbered. So eighteen, seventeen, sixteen, fifteen, fourteen, thirteen,
Speaker 3: I have it at thirteen. That was one that was
Speaker 3: a little difficult for me to place. I do think
Speaker 3: it has a pretty wonderful green.
Speaker 2: It does, so every hole there has a wonderful green
Speaker 2: for the most part.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. I think the the other thing that I like
Speaker 3: about it is that I just I like it at
Speaker 3: the end of the tournament when you know, you finish
Speaker 3: up this stretch of pretty gettable holes and you come
Speaker 3: to eighteen and you've just got to hit a banana
Speaker 3: slights around the corner and a you know, straight uphill
Speaker 3: shot and find the right section of the green. For
Speaker 3: some reason, over the years, I've I've gained some more
Speaker 3: affection for it. But why is it seventeen?
Speaker 2: I just don't love like the outside bunkers in terms
Speaker 2: of the golf hole. They weren't there originally. I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't think the hole really needs them.
Speaker 3: That tea shot looks ridiculous. When you look down, all
Speaker 3: you can see is the bunkers.
Speaker 2: It's you know. I think the thing about Augusta that
Speaker 2: I love the most is the t shots that have
Speaker 2: like a lot of dynamics to them, Like if you
Speaker 2: play here you get this, but you could play over
Speaker 2: here and it's like the shades of gray that that
Speaker 2: It's like the golf course isn't it isn't like you're
Speaker 2: not right or wrong when you hit a T shot.
Speaker 2: On most holes, it's not like a true or false
Speaker 2: and eighteen feels like it's true or false. Like it
Speaker 2: feels like every T shot at Augusta's kind of like
Speaker 2: an essay, and it's like, you know when you're writing
Speaker 2: an essay, or when you used to write an essay
Speaker 2: and he've gotten off to a really bad start. You know,
Speaker 2: like it's like familiar with this, It's gonna be very good,
Speaker 2: you know, Like but I could save it. I could.
Speaker 2: There's still time to save it. That's how every T
Speaker 2: shot at Augusta feels like, like even if you hit
Speaker 2: a bad one, you're like, Okay, I can redeem myself
Speaker 2: here the eighteenth it just doesn't feel like it feels
Speaker 2: more true false than like giving you the chance to
Speaker 2: redeem yourself even if you get off to a bad start.
Speaker 2: That being said, there are some really cool things I
Speaker 2: like about the hole. A subtle thing that I really
Speaker 2: love about the hole is I think like for a finisher,
Speaker 2: having the approach shot, hitting an iron off an upslope
Speaker 2: when you're uncomfortable when you're trying to get around to
Speaker 2: the house is really hard. Because like hitting irons from
Speaker 2: an upslope, like if you're not feeling right, it's really
Speaker 2: easy to tug them left. It's really easy to leave
Speaker 2: them high out right, like you have to make a
Speaker 2: really committed swing, and that upslope is like pretty severe.
Speaker 2: It is like it is a not an easy shot.
Speaker 2: So I think that are like with all these holes, again,
Speaker 2: is the least bad, Like this is just kind of
Speaker 2: where I like, I was doing this exercise and I
Speaker 2: just like there are things about every other hole that
Speaker 2: I liked a little bit more. I like the green.
Speaker 2: I like a lot of other greens more though, So
Speaker 2: it's here. I don't think this is right or wrong answer.
Speaker 2: And again, this is isn't about like the moments that
Speaker 2: happened here. It's more so about the hole. Obviously, if
Speaker 2: we're going with like moments that happened on this hole,
Speaker 2: it would be way higher because it's literally the last
Speaker 2: hole determining championships. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it has that position because it's the last hole,
Speaker 3: and I think that part of my view of it
Speaker 3: is a little bit biased by that. But I also
Speaker 3: had it in my bottom half of holes, so I'm
Speaker 3: pretty much on board with everything. You're saying there you
Speaker 3: want to hear my seventeenth ring hole sixteen.
Speaker 2: I knew yours was going to be there. I'm bumped
Speaker 2: it way up.
Speaker 3: I knew what did you What did you bump it to?
Speaker 2: I bumped it to thirteen.
Speaker 3: Okay, well that's where I had eighteen. So we're actually
Speaker 3: in the same situation here. Now this is a bit
Speaker 3: of admittedly a petulant take from me. Sixteen. I just
Speaker 3: think that hole has a lot of potential even where
Speaker 3: it's laid out now. Robert tren Jones re routed it
Speaker 3: after World War Two, right, the old Mackenzie hole is
Speaker 3: not coming back. It was in a different place. I
Speaker 3: think there's still a lot of potential in that hole. Obviously,
Speaker 3: it's created a number of wonderful moments during the Championship,
Speaker 3: like some of the roars that have happened there, some
Speaker 3: of those hole in one opportunities. But people may be
Speaker 3: surprised by my main objection here. It's not necessarily that
Speaker 3: the funnel pin is silly. The funnel pin is what
Speaker 3: it is. I think it is a little bit silly,
Speaker 3: but you know, it's so exciting that I can almost
Speaker 3: forgive it. The main thing that bothers me about the
Speaker 3: hole is that the green is just totally out of
Speaker 3: style with the rest of the greens at Augusta National.
Speaker 3: There's not as much interesting shaping or ideas on or
Speaker 3: around that green. It's pretty much a straight tier.
Speaker 2: I think, especially around the green.
Speaker 3: Around the green is the biggest tell that that's not
Speaker 3: an original green. If you look around the greens, at
Speaker 3: the exterior contours on pretty much every other hole at
Speaker 3: Augusta National, there's something really artful and clever going on.
Speaker 3: Look at the first green, look at the fifth green,
Speaker 3: Look at the fourteenth green, look at the seventeenth green.
Speaker 3: If you walk around those greens, you can see some
Speaker 3: artistry going on and some thought going into how the
Speaker 3: green is built up. From the Grade sixteen, it just
Speaker 3: the transition from the putting surface to the fringe is
Speaker 3: pretty much flat, and I think that's a bit of
Speaker 3: a miss at a course that is so identified with
Speaker 3: its green contouring.
Speaker 2: All right, I had it thirteen. I'm just you know,
Speaker 2: we talked about not doing stuff on history or moments.
Speaker 2: I think I probably got it up there because I
Speaker 2: was like, you know what, a lot of moments, lots
Speaker 2: of moments and it's pretty. You know, I think that's
Speaker 2: probably very pretty. And I think like.
Speaker 3: It's so beautiful in that little valley there. That's why
Speaker 3: I think it has such potential because it's a great
Speaker 3: place for the whole.
Speaker 2: I also will say, like I love watching golf at
Speaker 2: a lot of places. Augusta National. The atmosphere there on
Speaker 2: a weekend is like, if you know, okay, I say
Speaker 2: this like every kind of pot or tip that I
Speaker 2: give people when somebody asks me for tips for watching
Speaker 2: it Augusta National. If you ever go, get the chance
Speaker 2: to go on the weekend, which is like a very
Speaker 2: rare ticket, this hole gets like loaded up. It's you know,
Speaker 2: everybody's going to watch golf there because of the chances.
Speaker 2: Like one of the cool things about Augusta is the
Speaker 2: policy on seats. It's very much a like shared thing.
Speaker 2: So it is perfectly cool if you see an open
Speaker 2: seat to go, sit in the seat, and if the
Speaker 2: people that come, the people that put the chairs down come,
Speaker 2: they're just going to tap you on the shoulder and say,
Speaker 2: oh hey, this is my seat, and you just get
Speaker 2: up and go and it's like a fine thing. So
Speaker 2: if you see two open seats, your mill and about
Speaker 2: you can go sit and like, I think I've moved
Speaker 2: it up to thirteen mainly because like on a Saturday,
Speaker 2: on a nice Saturday or Sunday at the Masters, it
Speaker 2: is there is not like really a better place to
Speaker 2: watch golf than right there.
Speaker 3: It's great. And something that I noticed during this last
Speaker 3: anwah is how close that fifteen sixteen hub is amazing
Speaker 3: to this central hub of the property, which is two Green,
Speaker 3: three t seventeen Green, eighty seven Green. That whole area
Speaker 3: is basically the center from which the routing kind of
Speaker 3: radiates out. And the magical thing about it is that
Speaker 3: you can just walk straight to it from the clubhouse
Speaker 3: because there's a big thoroughfare down there to the side
Speaker 3: of the eighteenth Fairway. You just cross a couple of
Speaker 3: holes and you're there. From that point. From that central hub,
Speaker 3: it's not very far at all to fifteen and sixteen,
Speaker 3: so it's really kind of part of that whole complex.
Speaker 2: Well, it's so close to to like five Green, sixty
Speaker 2: sixth Green, it is, like, I mean, it's right there.
Speaker 3: Because sixth Green is basically right on top of the
Speaker 3: sixteenth hole.
Speaker 2: When you think about that hole, it's kind of like
Speaker 2: almost the very center of the golf course from like
Speaker 2: a you know, it's an oddly shaped golf course. It's not,
Speaker 2: and it's like one of the center points of the
Speaker 2: golf course. Is that like that hole?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, we're making a good argument for it, But
Speaker 3: the fact is, I think it was just a kind
Speaker 3: of obvious miss not to match that green to the rest.
Speaker 3: In general style, you don't have to repeat ideas, but
Speaker 3: general style should should be cohesive across this golf course.
Speaker 3: What what do you have for ye? All right, I'll go,
Speaker 3: should I go? Oh, yeah, it's my turn? All right,
Speaker 3: my turn, I'll go. I'll go. Fourth hole. That's fine,
Speaker 3: that's fine. Look at that agreement. I don't think this
Speaker 3: is a bad hole me either, I really don't think so.
Speaker 2: It's a really hard hole.
Speaker 3: It's very hard. It's very long. For what the green.
Speaker 2: Is so shallow.
Speaker 3: There is land the ball in this green with a
Speaker 3: long club.
Speaker 2: There is an amazing knob right in the middle of
Speaker 2: it in the green, and it's a very subtle shelf
Speaker 2: and it's terrifying. It is terrifying if you're on the
Speaker 2: wrong side of it, like it is scary. Legit putting
Speaker 2: from the back to the front of this green is scary. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I just think it doesn't have a ton of character.
Speaker 3: It's just a little one dimensional and it's it's an edenhole,
Speaker 3: right that that was the original idea, that this would
Speaker 3: be an edenhole, and it just seems like there's there's
Speaker 3: more that you could do with an edenhole. And of
Speaker 3: course originally the green was different. They had this big
Speaker 3: tongue coming down on the left. I think that central
Speaker 3: bunker was smaller. It's really big now and it kind
Speaker 3: of dominates the front of the green and it just
Speaker 3: kind of turned the hole into carry this bunker and
Speaker 3: try to stop your ball on the other side of it,
Speaker 3: instead of something more nuanced.
Speaker 2: I think the other aspect of this hole that makes
Speaker 2: it feel a little bit. It's so siloed off from
Speaker 2: the rest of the course, and a lot of this
Speaker 2: is like infrastructure that the club has, Like I think
Speaker 2: one of the member restaurants is very close by. There's
Speaker 2: a road that goes kind of like behind five T
Speaker 2: and this hole just like kind of like it feels
Speaker 2: if you were thinking of Augusta National as a house.
Speaker 2: It feels like a weird off off the side of
Speaker 2: the house room. It's like a mudroom and mud you know,
Speaker 2: like it's like part of the house, but it's not
Speaker 2: really in the house, if that makes.
Speaker 3: Sense, totally makes sense. I love that analogy. Never I
Speaker 3: think I've never heard that applied to golf before.
Speaker 2: And I think that's like one of the real the
Speaker 2: one when I was thinking about the hole and why
Speaker 2: because I do really like the green and again, this
Speaker 2: is a really great golf course, so like all these
Speaker 2: holes like this is great.
Speaker 3: Into like yeah, good holes. We're no longer talking about
Speaker 3: holes that are kind of jacked up. These are these
Speaker 3: are good holes.
Speaker 2: I just like, I think that's part of it. If
Speaker 2: if you think about where it is, and this is
Speaker 2: partly like infrastructure, like all the things that go into
Speaker 2: staging this tournament. But if I looked from the tee
Speaker 2: up five, if that was all open, I think I'd
Speaker 2: feel a lot differently about this hole. If I could
Speaker 2: just like see up five, if I could see down six,
Speaker 2: like in down sixteen, and through fifteen, like through the valley,
Speaker 2: I think I'd stand on this tea and be like,
Speaker 2: what a cool hole. But because it's so walled off,
Speaker 2: and because like what you said, I I think the
Speaker 2: green and the bunker of have gotten a little bit
Speaker 2: out of whack in terms of their interaction in scale,
Speaker 2: Like everything feels off because you have this like huge
Speaker 2: bunker in this walled off room and a really cool
Speaker 2: green this masked in it, and it kind of like,
Speaker 2: of all the holes at Augusta National seven sixteen, it
Speaker 2: feels the most ordinary. It feels like the hole that
Speaker 2: you could see at any golf course in America the most.
Speaker 3: It's a just a carry, you know. And in some
Speaker 3: ways this is a comparison that doesn't do justice to
Speaker 3: this hole or to Augusta National really, But in some
Speaker 3: ways it reminds me of the twelfth hole at Pebble Beach.
Speaker 3: You know. It's just a just a simple kind of
Speaker 3: mid iron. But for these guys, mid iron.
Speaker 2: Much better green than the twelfth at Pebble Bee.
Speaker 3: Much much better green. Obviously, I think that's a given
Speaker 3: when it comes to Augusta. But that's you know the
Speaker 3: spirit of it. Just kind of carry the bunker and
Speaker 3: make sure your ball stops on the other side of it.
Speaker 3: It's kind of what it's becoming now. Players get into
Speaker 3: interesting situations once they're on and around the green, and
Speaker 3: that's that's the difference.
Speaker 2: So all right, my number fifteen, I'm sad. I'm like,
Speaker 2: actually like extremely sad this is fifteen because I feel
Speaker 2: like it could be honestly a top five hole on
Speaker 2: the golf course. And it's kind of like the look
Speaker 2: what they've done to the beautiful boy.
Speaker 3: Beautiful boy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I when I think about this, because the
Speaker 2: green is extra I think it's a top three green
Speaker 2: on the golf course. The seventeenth hole is my fifteenth.
Speaker 3: And it's probably because of what they've done to the fairway, right,
Speaker 3: like what's happened with that?
Speaker 2: So the reason the reason it's here is it's just
Speaker 2: it's become super one dimensional with the with the tree planting,
Speaker 2: narrow fairway, and it just has kind of lost the
Speaker 2: idea like when you have like truly extraordinary greens, you
Speaker 2: want the ability to have shots come in to them
Speaker 2: from different angles. What you're doing is you are you're
Speaker 2: creating more outcomes for the way the play on the
Speaker 2: hole can play out. The more space you allow players
Speaker 2: the opportunity to get to places that they could take
Speaker 2: advantage of certain pins or be an extreme disadvantage for
Speaker 2: other pins. And this green. God. I think I could
Speaker 2: just sit and stare at it all day.
Speaker 3: I would, especially the back of it and also the
Speaker 3: well internal contouring.
Speaker 2: The thing that's probably the most amazing aspect of it
Speaker 2: is that it looks like it is it That back
Speaker 2: right is a shelf that's higher. But the way the
Speaker 2: ball rolls on the green, it runs from left to
Speaker 2: right like it's downhill right, And that's the whole that's
Speaker 2: that's sitting on the whole slope of the property that
Speaker 2: goes left to right. So it's an optical illusion. I
Speaker 2: mean the front, the back, left, little bowl, the front section,
Speaker 2: the pin just over the bunker. I could go there.
Speaker 2: This green's amazing, amazing green, and it's being the brilliance
Speaker 2: of the green is being kind of diminished by how
Speaker 2: execution The t shot is similar to what we talked
Speaker 2: about with seven. But this is just a out of
Speaker 2: this world great green, and it's gotten itself to fifteen
Speaker 2: despite you know, kind of the narrowing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have it at at twelve just because of
Speaker 3: how much I love the green. But I can't go
Speaker 3: much higher than that. One question I have that's not
Speaker 3: answerable is how much of the green and which sections
Speaker 3: of the green are original because the front of it
Speaker 3: is not original. That's not what Mackenzie and Jones designed
Speaker 3: in the early nineteen thirties. There were no bunkers in
Speaker 3: front of that original green.
Speaker 2: There's no bunkers on the whole hole.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it had this big kind of mound to
Speaker 3: the left of the green. Now I suspect that the
Speaker 3: back of the green and some of the internal contouring
Speaker 3: is kind of still what they built. But I believe
Speaker 3: Perry Maxwell may have made some ana.
Speaker 2: Some fronting bunkers on the left and right side in
Speaker 2: thirty and that's.
Speaker 3: Kind of what produced the modern green, which is still wonderful.
Speaker 3: And by the way, Perry Maxwell one of the great
Speaker 3: builders of greens in the history of golf architecture, so
Speaker 3: that there wasn't any kind of bad lineage coming into
Speaker 3: Augusta with those alterations. But yeah, one thing I noticed
Speaker 3: this last time, when I was really looking at seventeen
Speaker 3: is that the fairway kind of tilts against the general
Speaker 3: tilt of the property. It goes from right to left,
Speaker 3: but then there's this knoll to the right of the
Speaker 3: current seventeenth fair way. Once you crest that, then you
Speaker 3: start going left to right down toward Amen corner, and
Speaker 3: that's where the fifteenth fairway is, which tilts left to
Speaker 3: right from the perspective of the seventeenth tee. So these
Speaker 3: two holes are kind of separated by a peak right
Speaker 3: and there used to be no trees where there is
Speaker 3: a grove of trees now pinching the fairway from the
Speaker 3: right between the seventeenth and fifteenth holes. And so the
Speaker 3: strategy here used to be. Mackenzie said in writing about
Speaker 3: the hole that you want to come into this screen
Speaker 3: from the right side of the fairway, but if you
Speaker 3: get too far to the right, then you're rolling down
Speaker 3: into the fifteenth fairway and you're probably blind into the
Speaker 3: green from there. So you want to try to get
Speaker 3: to the edge of this slope to find an angle
Speaker 3: into the green. That was the original essence of the strategy.
Speaker 3: But now there are trees all over what this fantageous
Speaker 3: position used to be. And that's the problem. That's the problem.
Speaker 3: It's an execution t shot into a wonderful green.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 3: What was your fifteenth My fifteenth place hole is nine.
Speaker 2: I just think I had this twelve.
Speaker 3: I think this is an entertaining hole to watch, especially
Speaker 3: once you get up around the green, you never know
Speaker 3: what's going to happen. I just think it's become a
Speaker 3: little bit one dimensional. Off the tee. Obviously a draw
Speaker 3: is preferred.
Speaker 2: I love the T shot. I actually think the T
Speaker 2: SHOT's really good.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you can kind of position yourself nicely. Yeah, dude,
Speaker 3: players kind of get in similar positions down at the
Speaker 3: bottom of this valley somewhat. But when you stand on
Speaker 3: that tee and watch players hit shots, you realize that
Speaker 3: they really have to hit a good golf shot.
Speaker 2: It's an unnerving T shot for the modern game, where
Speaker 2: everybody hits a fade. You stand on that tee and
Speaker 2: really like you feel like you have to make a
Speaker 2: really good swing to like, at at the bare minimum,
Speaker 2: you can't like just hit like the ball that like
Speaker 2: kind of like just slides right. You need to at
Speaker 2: least hit it straight.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And if you get out of.
Speaker 2: This and I think, like the thing that I would
Speaker 2: say versus like the other holes that we've talked about
Speaker 2: is like they did this this hole. You stand on
Speaker 2: the tee and feel that way without trees just all
Speaker 2: over the place.
Speaker 3: Right, there's a tight line in a wide fair way yes,
Speaker 3: and so that's what really still works about this t shot.
Speaker 3: I think now the green, I don't know if there's
Speaker 3: necessarily anything wrong with it. It's just really really tilted
Speaker 3: and it doesn't have as much putting surface as it
Speaker 3: used to have, and so the pin positions are really limited.
Speaker 3: And I guess that's my issue with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have it a little higher just because, like
Speaker 2: I think like the I think, if you know, the
Speaker 2: thing is, I think nine for me would fall the
Speaker 2: most with like tree removal. You know, it would tumble down,
Speaker 2: and it might be but like to me, the hole
Speaker 2: is really it's hard for me to come up with
Speaker 2: a reason I don't like the hole. And I know
Speaker 2: what the old green used to like it look like,
Speaker 2: and there's got there's a lot of romanticism around it.
Speaker 2: I think the current green works really well with how
Speaker 2: the golf hole lays out, like all the like, where
Speaker 2: you have you're hitting a short iron from a downslope
Speaker 2: to a green that you can't miss short and you
Speaker 2: can't miss long left, and so you know you can't
Speaker 2: miss short and so you naturally pull it long left,
Speaker 2: and then long left is awful. So I just think
Speaker 2: it's like a really cool hole. It's it requires like
Speaker 2: it's super scorable, but it requires really good shots and
Speaker 2: if you don't hit one of them, then all of
Speaker 2: a sudden you're like, oh, I got hit do something
Speaker 2: really good to make par, you know, And so I
Speaker 2: like it. And again there's a great golf course. So like,
Speaker 2: it's twelve, I'm talking about this and it's twelve on
Speaker 2: my list.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're you're talking about a hole you like. Yeah,
Speaker 3: all right, let's do fourteen. What is your fourteenth place?
Speaker 2: I think you're up again?
Speaker 3: Am I up again? Okay? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Only when we over This.
Speaker 3: Is another slightly petulant take, but there's some feeling behind it.
Speaker 3: And that's eleven. I was.
Speaker 2: I struggled.
Speaker 3: This is a great area. This should be a great
Speaker 3: golf hole. I did. The reason I've put it down
Speaker 3: here below eighteen and below seventeen where it doesn't belong.
Speaker 2: I have it ten.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, And that that might make more sense is
Speaker 3: that this should this should be a top four, top
Speaker 3: three hole at Augusta National. But they've monkeyed with it
Speaker 3: too much. Distance gains have had their effect. I don't
Speaker 3: necessarily blame the club here, though. The execution of some
Speaker 3: of the recent work on the whole has been pretty questionable,
Speaker 3: not just the idea but the execution. I think really
Speaker 3: the story here is that this hole can't be what
Speaker 3: it's supposed to be because the tea right now for
Speaker 3: the pros is in the wrong place.
Speaker 2: I will say this, the worst moment in the round
Speaker 2: at Augusta National if you were playing the back tees,
Speaker 2: it's without a doubt. I mean, the worst moment spectating
Speaker 2: at Augusta National if you're following a group is the
Speaker 2: after the tenth green, Like do you do I walk
Speaker 2: back two hundred yards to the tee?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: Do I walk up that hill? And I can only
Speaker 2: imagine what playing competitors like, what the what the participants feel,
Speaker 2: you know they they it's like you it's like a
Speaker 2: big uphill walk back to that tee and it's like
Speaker 2: versus just walking right off the member tee sitting there.
Speaker 2: It's just like kind of like a jarring thing.
Speaker 3: Right. So yeah, and I don't have a so here,
Speaker 3: I'm identifying a problem that might not have a practical
Speaker 3: solution on the current footprint of the course. But I
Speaker 3: really think that tee should be belongs way more to
Speaker 3: the right, and obviously the walk from ten green to
Speaker 3: eleven t is a problem in itself, but I think
Speaker 3: the choice that you're making from that right tee that
Speaker 3: used to exist there when the tenth hole was different.
Speaker 3: The choice that you're making is between trying to cut
Speaker 3: the corner and maybe get yourself a shorter approach into
Speaker 3: the green, or go to the left side of the
Speaker 3: corridor and find that nice little angle to try to
Speaker 3: run the ball up onto the green off of those
Speaker 3: mounds short right of the gay.
Speaker 2: I think that's one of the issues with the actually
Speaker 2: you hit on the execution of the work, is that
Speaker 2: the mound in the don't work anymore, the mounds and
Speaker 2: like how the green's now like almost propped up from
Speaker 2: the right side. They I think this was an effort
Speaker 2: to make, you know. I think changes happen because they
Speaker 2: watch how players and like and I think this is
Speaker 2: a hard position to be in. There's a lot of
Speaker 2: advantages to having a tournament at a course every year,
Speaker 2: Like there's fan familiarity, you know, understand infrastructure. I can
Speaker 2: only imagine the difficulty of not making you know, of
Speaker 2: making decisions and you watch players play and what had
Speaker 2: happened with this hole is that players just bailed out
Speaker 2: right took the chip up, So they've made the area
Speaker 2: on the right side the bailout more difficult. But in
Speaker 2: doing this, they've like actually, like the original features of
Speaker 2: the hole don't work anymore because there's like a cut
Speaker 2: between the mounds that were originally on the short right side.
Speaker 2: And I think there is like a little bit of
Speaker 2: a romanticism here. No modern player is going to use
Speaker 2: these mounds to get the balls close to the hole
Speaker 2: like they might have when they were hitting like a
Speaker 2: fairway wood into this green. But it is fairly relevant
Speaker 2: for like anwa it's very relevant for member play, it's
Speaker 2: very nice, and it's very relevant for just like the
Speaker 2: golf hole and how it functions. And again, this change
Speaker 2: makes it less of a strategic hole more of an
Speaker 2: execution hole. And I think if you were going to
Speaker 2: like chart this podcast where like aspects of the holes are,
Speaker 2: you know where we dock them, it's usually around that ground.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, yes, the the green contouring has been changed
Speaker 3: so much that it's a little bit hard to remember
Speaker 3: what the original contouring was and what the rationale behind
Speaker 3: it was. And so would love to see them try
Speaker 3: to bring back small elements of that bit by bit.
Speaker 3: And also I don't like the pond. I just don't
Speaker 3: like that. I wish that it was still the creek.
Speaker 3: But I know that's unreasonable, but I just to you know,
Speaker 3: bring the creek back to fifteen, bring the creek back
Speaker 3: to eleven. We don't need these ponds.
Speaker 2: Even if they made it, if it was like halfway
Speaker 2: between the pond and the creek where it was like
Speaker 2: a creek inlet you know, it made it like appear
Speaker 2: a little like the creek got super wide.
Speaker 3: You know, something connected to the landscape. Because the little
Speaker 3: pond is just you know, that's that it screams mid
Speaker 3: century golf architecture at this point, and we don't need it.
Speaker 2: I think, like the hard thing, if you were going
Speaker 2: to like approach it, I think like the the question
Speaker 2: would be if we do this, if we make if
Speaker 2: we return to the green contours on the right side,
Speaker 2: then people are just going to start bailing out again.
Speaker 2: And we don't want that, like because now what they've
Speaker 2: done is like if you miss right in the tournament,
Speaker 2: if you bail out right of one of those backpins,
Speaker 2: your chip, like you have to hit a good chip,
Speaker 2: and you can easily chip it into the water. Yeah,
Speaker 2: if you don't hit a good chip. And I think
Speaker 2: that's the thing that they wanted to do, was like,
Speaker 2: all right, let's put a second thought so that people
Speaker 2: just so people can will hit it into the water again.
Speaker 3: And look, that makes sense because that gives tension back
Speaker 3: to the second shot, where you know, when the pros
Speaker 3: are hitting that second shot, they have to challenge the
Speaker 3: water a little bit. They need to, they're being forced to,
Speaker 3: and so when that ball is in the air, it's
Speaker 3: nerve wracking.
Speaker 2: And so this is I think, like we just have
Speaker 2: to put out there. This is a lot to do
Speaker 2: with like modern hitting distances. It has to do with
Speaker 2: what Anthony Kim said this week at Live where he said,
Speaker 2: I spent twelve years away. I can't believe the drivers
Speaker 2: how you don't have to hit it in the center.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is one of the greatest quotes. And
Speaker 2: like it was like, you know, Anthony Kim's effectively better
Speaker 2: in a time machine.
Speaker 3: And he thoughts and he didn't. He wasn't playing in
Speaker 3: the late nineties. Yeah, he was playing in the late
Speaker 3: as in early ties.
Speaker 2: For those that didn't that might not have seen this.
Speaker 2: He basically he talked about at the end of his
Speaker 2: press conference how drivers how much they've changed, because he
Speaker 2: didn't play golf for ten years, right, and he's like,
Speaker 2: I can't believe how you don't have to hit it
Speaker 2: in the center anymore for it to go straight. Like
Speaker 2: it seems like you can hit it anywhere on the
Speaker 2: face and it goes just as far and just as straight.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So that was like effectively his quote. But like, this
Speaker 2: is part of the reason. These are all reactions to
Speaker 2: nothing happening. There was no equipment, there was a very
Speaker 2: lenient equipment regulation, and this is all A lot of
Speaker 2: these changes were forced because of this.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And a key factor, a key determining factor for
Speaker 3: where a hole is appearing on my list is how
Speaker 3: affected it has been by distance gains. There are certain
Speaker 3: holes at Augusta National, for whatever combination of reasons, haven't
Speaker 3: been as affected. Those ones are more likely to be
Speaker 3: higher on the list.
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Speaker 3: I'm not sure whose turn it is. It's my point.
Speaker 2: Oh we're on fourteen still. I have whole one.
Speaker 3: You have hole one. Okay, this is our first disagreement.
Speaker 2: I love the green. I think it's one of the
Speaker 2: best greens on the Gulf. Of course, I think that
Speaker 2: I think there just isn't a lot of space off
Speaker 2: the tea. I think those bunkers are huge. I mean
Speaker 2: they're a massive They are massive, and they just like
Speaker 2: if you turn on ninety seven and watch Tiger and
Speaker 2: look at the first hole, and turn on now and
Speaker 2: look at the first hole, It's like this is like
Speaker 2: I mean, it is like a departure. It is insane.
Speaker 2: It's a great opening hole in terms of like, again,
Speaker 2: this is a great hole. I just I don't love
Speaker 2: like what's happened to it over the last you know,
Speaker 2: twenty thirty years.
Speaker 3: You know, I think a lot of people who are
Speaker 3: enthusiastic about golf architecture would agree with you here. But
Speaker 3: I just really like this hole. I have it at
Speaker 3: number six, and you know, I think that the reason
Speaker 3: I like it now, not thinking about the hole's history,
Speaker 3: I'm sure that if I looked closely at what the
Speaker 3: original design was, I would see a bunch of elements
Speaker 3: that I would want to bring back. I think the
Speaker 3: trees have come in really close, but as a first
Speaker 3: tee shot in a championship, I think it has a
Speaker 3: unique tension and a strategic weight to it that is
Speaker 3: really compelling. And the reason is that you have that big,
Speaker 3: intimidating bunker on the right. Is it too big? Is
Speaker 3: it too deep? It kind of looks ridiculous in a
Speaker 3: lot of ways, but it's there, and the only thing
Speaker 3: you're thinking off the tee is I need to avoid this.
Speaker 3: But then the fair way tilts from right to left
Speaker 3: quickly into the trees on the left, and you look
Speaker 3: up at the green, which you can see perfectly from
Speaker 3: the tee, perfectly, just kind of hovering above the lip
Speaker 3: of the bunker and the crest of the hill. There
Speaker 3: you can see the green and another big bunker on
Speaker 3: the right side on the sorry on the left side
Speaker 3: of that green, and the fairway bunker and the green
Speaker 3: side bunker kind of line up visually, and so you
Speaker 3: see that kind of line on the hole and you're like,
Speaker 3: that's the line of danger right there. How am I
Speaker 3: going to negotiate this? Well, I kind of got to
Speaker 3: challenge the big fairway bunker off the tee or else
Speaker 3: I'm not going to be able to hit driver on
Speaker 3: this hole. Because if I don't challenge the bunker and
Speaker 3: I hit driver, that tilt of the fairway is going
Speaker 3: to kick me into the trees on the left, and
Speaker 3: I'm going to have that huge green side bunker in
Speaker 3: front of me. I'm not going to be in a
Speaker 3: good situation. So you have to take it on a
Speaker 3: little bit. And I just I love that it's you know,
Speaker 3: at a regular golf course, you know, gentle handshake concept
Speaker 3: opening hole. This is definitely not that. Then you get
Speaker 3: to the green and it's obviously just like a work
Speaker 3: of art and incredible. So that's why I like the
Speaker 3: first hole. But I reckon that there are many people
Speaker 3: who know more than I do about golf architecture who
Speaker 3: really don't like what has become.
Speaker 2: I love the I love the green. I think the
Speaker 2: green is amazing. I think and I listen like I think,
Speaker 2: like The other feature of the hole is similar to eighteen,
Speaker 2: like where people drive it to where people really used
Speaker 2: to drive it to too. It's you're uncomfortable at the
Speaker 2: start of the round and you're hitting an iron from
Speaker 2: an upslope. Again, it's just not a not something that's
Speaker 2: not a nice spot to hit an iron from.
Speaker 3: It's a really really hard hole.
Speaker 2: Yeah, super hard. I think both of us are thirteenth.
Speaker 2: My thirteenth was sixteen and your thirteenth was eighteen. So
Speaker 2: we've already talked about both those.
Speaker 3: My twelfth is seventeen, which we've already talked about. What's
Speaker 3: your twelfth?
Speaker 2: My twelfth is the ninth, which we've already talked about.
Speaker 3: Right, Okay, we're rocket We're getting through to the back nine.
Speaker 3: My eleventh place hole is two.
Speaker 2: All right, I have five.
Speaker 3: You have this really high? Okay, so I'll start. It's
Speaker 3: not that I don't like this hole too, yeah too,
Speaker 3: I have it as I have it.
Speaker 2: I don't have it super high. I have an eighth.
Speaker 3: Oh oh, I thought you said, okay.
Speaker 2: I have I have the fifth hole of my eleven.
Speaker 3: I got confused there, all right, So in any case.
Speaker 2: Two listeners probably were confused.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was. Yeah, listeners, if you were confused, so
Speaker 3: was I. But I probably shouldn't have been.
Speaker 1: So.
Speaker 3: Number two I have is eleventh. They've just moved the
Speaker 3: tea back into the left it. I understand why they
Speaker 3: did it. Did it They did the same thing in
Speaker 3: the past couple of years to thirteen and fifteen, and
Speaker 3: restored some strategic value to the shots that you hit
Speaker 3: on those holes.
Speaker 2: I don't think everybody should be able to hit it
Speaker 2: like way down the hill on too.
Speaker 3: It's that's the thing, is that everybody's been getting down
Speaker 3: there and now it's with three woods because they can
Speaker 3: actually draw a three wood right. You need to hit
Speaker 3: a draw to get down the hill and skirt that
Speaker 3: big fairway bunker on the right.
Speaker 2: I don't love that big paraoy bunker on the right.
Speaker 3: No, it's it's like it's kind of an eyesore, but
Speaker 3: it's very visually intimidating. I mean, it's kind of like
Speaker 3: the one on one.
Speaker 2: But I I again, I did this. I might move
Speaker 2: it back, like I might move it back a little
Speaker 2: when I think about that faarawoy bunker.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that fairway bunker is more of a factor
Speaker 3: this year because of where the tea is. They kind
Speaker 3: of shoved the tee over to the left, moved it
Speaker 3: back ten yards.
Speaker 2: I saw the picture they posted on Instagram, and it
Speaker 2: does like I mean, it looks like you're just staring
Speaker 2: at the bunker.
Speaker 3: And there might be a little bit of an optical
Speaker 3: illusion there with the camera. I'm not sure that the
Speaker 3: tee like points at the bunker like that picture on
Speaker 3: the master's Twitter account made it look like it does.
Speaker 3: But certainly the repositioning of the tee has brought the
Speaker 3: bunker more into and so you have to hit this
Speaker 3: big sweeping draw to get down the hill. Again. Get
Speaker 3: why they did it. They wanted to restore some value
Speaker 3: to hitting that great shot and earning the down slope
Speaker 3: toward the green. But the result is a hole that
Speaker 3: just looks a touch absurd. Now I have this ranked
Speaker 3: fairly high, so I really like this hole. I think
Speaker 3: it's exciting, especially as the second hole in a championship
Speaker 3: where you've had a really hard first hole and now
Speaker 3: you've got an opportunity on the second hole, but you
Speaker 3: got to hit a proper golf shot.
Speaker 2: One of the most fun shots on the course is
Speaker 2: the second shot in this hole.
Speaker 3: If you're not just that big slope is a roller coaster.
Speaker 3: It's just pure fun.
Speaker 2: So it's high on my list because it's honestly one
Speaker 2: of the most fun. One of the most fun shots
Speaker 2: on the hole is if you're going for that green
Speaker 2: into it's like you're trying to plot out exactly where
Speaker 2: you want it to go. You're running a ball in,
Speaker 2: which I think is like super rare in modern golf,
Speaker 2: is like a hole where you're really like chasing a
Speaker 2: ball into if the pins on one of the back
Speaker 2: areas like you're chasing the ball in I I just
Speaker 2: love that. And then I just love the you turn
Speaker 2: the corner and it's this amazing reveal of you look
Speaker 2: down like you know, one you're up on high on
Speaker 2: the ridge, and two you turn down and you see
Speaker 2: the golf course just open up in front of your eyes,
Speaker 2: and I think you get to that central Yeah, I
Speaker 2: think there's like an intrinsic value of that that makes it,
Speaker 2: like I move it way up in my list because
Speaker 2: of that. It's like you're that second shot into the
Speaker 2: on that hole is kind of like you're welcome to
Speaker 2: the to the real heart of the golf course. And
Speaker 2: I think I placed just a little bit of value
Speaker 2: on that, and I love also, you know, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of different greens at Augusta National. This is one
Speaker 2: of them that really sits down beautifully on the ground.
Speaker 3: I was just gonna say that I like the variety
Speaker 3: that that introduces because so many of the greens that
Speaker 3: Augusta are built up in these monumental, spectacular, eye opening ways.
Speaker 3: Now you have a green on a fairly severe slope
Speaker 3: that just sits on it.
Speaker 2: Well, so there's a lot of green, and so there's
Speaker 2: a lot of I think there's like a couple different
Speaker 2: types of greens at Augusta for the most part when
Speaker 2: they sit, when they're on flat land, they're all built up.
Speaker 2: So think one, eight, five, I know I'm forgetting a few.
Speaker 2: Fourteen is that's more into a ridge. But then they
Speaker 2: have the holes that are set into bridges. Yes, and
Speaker 2: that you would think of, ten, you'd think of, you know, three,
Speaker 2: you'd think of I mean you could go down the list,
Speaker 2: and then you have other holes that are set on
Speaker 2: the ground, right and two would be one of them
Speaker 2: that's set on the ground. Eleven used to be more
Speaker 2: set on the ground.
Speaker 3: Seven is built into a ridge.
Speaker 2: Yeah, now two. Now eleven's more set up. I think
Speaker 2: that was our kind of talk about it. And then
Speaker 2: you have the holes like twelve thirteen that have the
Speaker 2: have the the creek as a hazard that run along them,
Speaker 2: and those are set on angles.
Speaker 3: With the creek.
Speaker 2: But two is one of the rare greens that's set
Speaker 2: on the ground. Kind of sits it is. That's another
Speaker 2: green that I really love sitting at. Again, use the
Speaker 2: chair policy. If you're going to a tournament round, use
Speaker 2: the chair policy. Go snag a chair. It's really fun
Speaker 2: place to watch golf. So that would be my eighth,
Speaker 2: my eleventh. My eleventh ranked hole is five.
Speaker 3: Okay, your eleventh ranked hole is five. Okay. I have
Speaker 3: this tenth, so not that far apart. I think it's
Speaker 3: a brilliant hole.
Speaker 2: I think this could be in my top four if
Speaker 2: the bunkers shifted left and one of the things in
Speaker 2: this could all be spectator flow. This again, these are
Speaker 2: the decisions you make when you host a tournament. You
Speaker 2: have to do things. And to me, the best part
Speaker 2: of this hole is the left side. There's this unbelievable
Speaker 2: land form. It kind of sits on the ridge right
Speaker 2: It sits on the ridge that and the spectator plays off.
Speaker 2: The spectators effectively walk on the ridge line, and I
Speaker 2: always just think, like that's where you want to be
Speaker 2: hitting your second shot from to open up this unbelievable green.
Speaker 2: So to me, you know, I think probably a lot
Speaker 2: of this hole is partly spectator flow and and just
Speaker 2: the means of getting people around it. It's not a
Speaker 2: great hole to watch golf in general, like just because
Speaker 2: like you're kind of back there and this has is isolating.
Speaker 2: You kind of get into no man's land when you
Speaker 2: go down to four green and then up through five.
Speaker 2: But like because you've got to get people. I think
Speaker 2: that this is part of the reason. But the best
Speaker 2: part of that hole the line of charm, the ideal
Speaker 2: line really, you know, Elister Mackenzie and Bobby Jones talked
Speaker 2: about this being the road hole. This is the line
Speaker 2: that they go on, and it's in trees, yeah yeah,
Speaker 2: and the bunkers are pushed in and it pushes everybody
Speaker 2: like you're hitting to the bad angle, like there is
Speaker 2: you aren't allowed to get to where you need to
Speaker 2: get to to have like a really wide dynamic scoring range.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it would necessarily change. But my
Speaker 2: theory would be if you could get to the left side,
Speaker 2: you'd see a lot more birdies from there than from
Speaker 2: the right side.
Speaker 3: Yeah, now you.
Speaker 2: Now, trying to get to the left side might yield
Speaker 2: more doubles. And guess what, That's what makes golf really
Speaker 2: interesting when you have the high variants of scoring. People
Speaker 2: knowing I have to get over there if I need to,
Speaker 2: if I want to score, if I want to make
Speaker 2: a three.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure I have anything to add to that.
Speaker 3: I think that's really good. I the green is obviously
Speaker 3: one of my favorite favorites on the course, and I
Speaker 3: think that's why I have it this high. You know,
Speaker 3: this is a hole with an interesting history. It's supposed
Speaker 3: to be their version of the road hole, but there's
Speaker 3: not really a road bunker situation here. There are some
Speaker 3: preferred angles and some complexities with the green. I think
Speaker 3: initially Alistair mackenzie was sort of planning to put a
Speaker 3: bunker kind of in front of the green that would
Speaker 3: that would allow players to find an advantage along the
Speaker 3: left side of the hole. It's really a reversed road hole.
Speaker 3: So I don't know this is a hole I need
Speaker 3: to find out more about its history and and think
Speaker 3: about what they could reasonably do to restore some of
Speaker 3: that strategy. But beautiful golf hole with an incredible green,
Speaker 3: and uh and and you know, obviously some some things
Speaker 3: to do.
Speaker 2: So my tenth was the eleventh hole. What is your tenth?
Speaker 3: The fifth hole, my ninth, we're ahead to nine. My
Speaker 3: ninth place hole is six.
Speaker 2: I had this three.
Speaker 3: Okay, you have Wow. I didn't expect this one. I'm
Speaker 3: excited to hear the explanation. Now. I love this green.
Speaker 3: I think it's I think it's great. I just can't
Speaker 3: quite get to putting it above the other eight holes
Speaker 3: on the rest of my list. That big shelf back
Speaker 3: right is really fantastic. And then what's underrated about the hole,
Speaker 3: I think is how cool and subtle the rest of
Speaker 3: the pin positions on the green are. There are these
Speaker 3: little ripples, little shelves all over the green and then
Speaker 3: that big one back right. So every pin I'm kind
Speaker 3: of excited to watch. And that's why I like the hole.
Speaker 2: You just explain why I put it three. I just
Speaker 2: think it's like a super fun shot, really great to watch.
Speaker 2: If you put this hole in place of sixteen, I
Speaker 2: think everybody would say that might be the best part
Speaker 2: three at Augusta National. I think just by the casualty
Speaker 2: of where it is in the routing hole six in
Speaker 2: the middle of the front nine, that it doesn't get
Speaker 2: the love appreciation and do I think this is just
Speaker 2: a magnificent golf hole. That's like, it's a pretty great
Speaker 2: Part three. I can't think of like if you took
Speaker 2: the six hole and put it on like almost any
Speaker 2: other course, people will be like that six hole. Have
Speaker 2: you seen the six hole there? And this golf hole
Speaker 2: that nothing's really been monkeyed about that much.
Speaker 3: And that's true. Well they just monkeyed a little bit. Yeah,
Speaker 3: this is a Sean Martin reporting that they they put
Speaker 3: some runoffs in back of that back tire which makes
Speaker 3: it even more difficult to reach.
Speaker 2: So I haven't I haven't. I haven't seen the new changes.
Speaker 2: But to me, this hole is great and I just
Speaker 2: like kind of like I was think thinking about it,
Speaker 2: and I was just like, you know what, that's the
Speaker 2: one that I like. I like, I just love the
Speaker 2: golf shot. I love the hole.
Speaker 3: So that's my that's it. That's the one you'll get
Speaker 3: behind more than most people might get behind six. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm I mean, I agree with your analysis. I just
Speaker 3: couldn't find a way to put it up that high.
Speaker 3: But you know, I guess if I if I were to,
Speaker 3: I mean, find a critique.
Speaker 2: Here's the thing. We're at the point where they're all good,
Speaker 2: they're all great, They're all like my ninth is fifteen, right.
Speaker 2: I really love that hole. Yeah, I think it's an
Speaker 2: amazing hole. You want to talk about moments. I think
Speaker 2: it's like arguably been the most momentous hole and all
Speaker 2: gone in all of the tournaments over the last like
Speaker 2: fifteen twenty years. That's been the hole that mattered. Real quick,
Speaker 2: you said you had one critique of six.
Speaker 3: The bunker looks weird. That's that's it. Like it used
Speaker 3: to be kind of like one of those big Mackenzie
Speaker 3: bunkers with with some real character to it, and now
Speaker 3: what does it look like? It kind of looks like
Speaker 3: a middle finger.
Speaker 2: I guess, like a lot of the bunkers just look there.
Speaker 2: So that's it.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's not specific to six. I also would
Speaker 3: like to see the changes play out and see whether
Speaker 3: players are attacking that back tier as much as they did.
Speaker 3: You have to, yeah, because the putt is so hard.
Speaker 3: But if you're threatened with if you're threatened more with
Speaker 3: going over the back, our player is going to back
Speaker 3: off it a little bit.
Speaker 2: I think it's so hard to hit something long right,
Speaker 2: like that's yeah, that's the thing about it. It's so
Speaker 2: hard to hit for a right handed player to hit
Speaker 2: it long right. Sure it comes up short right, yeah,
Speaker 2: so it's a right target. Your everybody's aiming ten feet left,
Speaker 2: yeah to start, Like, I just don't think the balls
Speaker 2: are going to get there easily. So yeah, I like
Speaker 2: that's one of the things I love about the hole
Speaker 2: in general is that back right flag. You stand on
Speaker 2: the team and you kind of think, like I kind
Speaker 2: of have to hit it there, and on so many
Speaker 2: par threes, it's just like, oh, we'll just bail.
Speaker 3: You'll hedge, Yeah, like you have, but.
Speaker 2: You could like you don't want to edge. It's a
Speaker 2: I And then like I think the other parts. So
Speaker 2: you have this like extraordinarily hard pin the back right
Speaker 2: on six, and then when it's up front, it's like
Speaker 2: super fun. It's like dynamic. Like I think about like
Speaker 2: the way a hole can play, that hole can play
Speaker 2: at super easy. One of the easiest holes on the course,
Speaker 2: and then it could be feasibly the hardest hole on
Speaker 2: the course just by moving the flag. So that's my
Speaker 2: really strong case for it.
Speaker 3: Okay, for number three, all right, you said that fifteen
Speaker 3: is number nine for you, it's eight for me.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 3: It's that high only because it's the hole that I
Speaker 3: most look forward to seeing in the final round of
Speaker 3: any Masters. And it's kind of incredible that that's the case,
Speaker 3: considering all the stuff that has kind of gone wrong
Speaker 3: with that hole, all the trees and places where they
Speaker 3: don't really belong. The sheer severity of the green, the
Speaker 3: pond in front, I mean, the severy the green is
Speaker 3: kind of what creates the tension of the hole. But
Speaker 3: I'm not sure that's that's really like what it should
Speaker 3: be necessarily. In any case, the main problem right now
Speaker 3: with the hole is that the extreme narrowing of a
Speaker 3: corridor where the whole point of it originally is that
Speaker 3: it was enormously wide and you could kind of choose
Speaker 3: to go low or high. Now it's like you got
Speaker 3: to fit it between the trees in order to have
Speaker 3: a chance to go for it. Nonetheless, there's some magic
Speaker 3: about this hole where the definitive shot that a Master's
Speaker 3: champion has to face is that shot into the fifteenth green.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think the other thing that's great
Speaker 2: is the layup is not easy.
Speaker 3: Right then downhill lie on the layup that.
Speaker 2: Was one of the hardest shots on the golf course.
Speaker 2: Is what you lay up to.
Speaker 3: And I was thinking when I was watching the hole
Speaker 3: during Anwhah, I was watching Bailey Shoemaker, who was making
Speaker 3: a big charge in the final round of Anwhah, and
Speaker 3: I thought that she was trending towards being the winner.
Speaker 3: But then Lotti Woad closed really hard and took it.
Speaker 3: But Bailey Shoemaker, I was watching her play this hole
Speaker 3: and she she got behind the trees on the left
Speaker 3: and I had a moment of disappointment, like, oh, I'm
Speaker 3: not going to see her try to go for the
Speaker 3: screen in two. But then she chipped out and she
Speaker 3: was on a downhill lie with that short iron or
Speaker 3: wedge whatever she had into the green and I thought
Speaker 3: to myself, all that tension is there still there anywhere
Speaker 3: with this shot? And she hit a great shot and
Speaker 3: I thought it was one of the best shots of
Speaker 3: her final round that I saw, and it's because of
Speaker 3: the way that that lay up zone tilts toward the water.
Speaker 3: It's just so uncomfortable, and you feel it when a
Speaker 3: player stands over that that third shot if they lay up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's it's uh, I think you hit on everything.
Speaker 2: I'd like to see the bunker on the right removed too,
Speaker 2: because I think it's like actually like a bailout spot.
Speaker 3: It was once a mound yea, so it was once
Speaker 3: the kind of opposite of what it is now.
Speaker 2: All right, hole of the an eighth ranked hole. I
Speaker 2: minds too. So we've already talked about that. What's your
Speaker 2: eighth ranked hole?
Speaker 3: Fifteen?
Speaker 2: Fifteen? So we're on to seven? Uh seven, the seventh,
Speaker 2: our seventh best hole at Augusta, Nashville. What's yours?
Speaker 3: Ten?
Speaker 2: Okay? I have eight here?
Speaker 3: You have eight there? Okay, let's talk about ten first.
Speaker 3: A specific thing that I love about this whole. I
Speaker 3: think people are pretty familiar with the drive and how
Speaker 3: downhill it is and how exciting that is.
Speaker 2: Oh, are we on the seventh or we're on.
Speaker 3: Number We're on the we're on the seventh place, okay hole, Yeah,
Speaker 3: and that's ten for me. So I really like the
Speaker 3: fairway contouring and how that works with the strategy of
Speaker 3: the hole. Obviously, there's the big speed slot that everybody
Speaker 3: knows about on the left, but in kind of the
Speaker 3: right center portion of the fairway and correct me here
Speaker 3: if my memory is kind of faulty. But there's like
Speaker 3: a little platform that gives you all level lie. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and if you find that, then that's it's not really good.
Speaker 2: It's not completely level, yeah.
Speaker 3: But it's more level than the rest of it, because
Speaker 3: one of the big difficulties on that whole is that
Speaker 3: you're probably hitting off of some kind of a weird
Speaker 3: lie to this green that's super propped up.
Speaker 2: So this is my fourth yeah, and it's all because
Speaker 2: of that second shot, right, I don't think I mean, like,
Speaker 2: I don't know of many shots in all of golf
Speaker 2: that have as many variables and factors to them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's amazing. And what what makes it
Speaker 3: so cool is the combination of the visual intimidation and
Speaker 3: the actual functional contouring and hazards around that green. So
Speaker 3: it's propped up in the air, it's so intimidating to
Speaker 3: look at. You're looking at it, and you're looking at
Speaker 3: it and you're saying to yourself, like, I've got to
Speaker 3: hit a shot into that, Like, is that really going
Speaker 3: to happen here? Then you've got the bunker on the
Speaker 3: right and the big drop off on the left, and
Speaker 3: so yeah, it's better to come in from the left
Speaker 3: side of the fairway. So it's better if you manage
Speaker 3: to get around the trees and come in, so you're
Speaker 3: you're hitting against the tilt of the green to stop
Speaker 3: your ball a little bit. If you're coming in from
Speaker 3: the right, you know, just it's such an awkward shot
Speaker 3: from the right, but you know, even from the left,
Speaker 3: you've got that huge drop off and you've just got
Speaker 3: to hit such a precise shot in there.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So this is my fourth I love this hole.
Speaker 2: You know, all of the holes at this point I
Speaker 2: love so mine for the seventh was whole eight.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that this is a fantastic hole.
Speaker 2: This was number four for me, all right, So we
Speaker 2: had those flipped.
Speaker 3: I think the I think the strategy of this hole
Speaker 3: really still works, where if you challenge that bunker on
Speaker 3: the right, then you've got kind of a ticket and
Speaker 3: to try to reach the screen in two. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's awesome. The green's amazing. It's one of
Speaker 2: the coolest greens. I also think like one of the
Speaker 2: recipes of a great par five is like the layup.
Speaker 2: I think this is probably one of the most compelling
Speaker 2: layup holes where if you don't hit a good drive,
Speaker 2: if you're in the bunker, if you're in the if
Speaker 2: you're in the pine straw or the trees, like, you
Speaker 2: are just praying that you can get the ball up
Speaker 2: to the flat, and it's very hard to do that.
Speaker 2: It's like extremely hard if you're in the bunker to
Speaker 2: get it up to the flat, like if you're in
Speaker 2: the trees, like you're just hoping for a little little
Speaker 2: space to get the ball to the flat because you
Speaker 2: get such a huge advantage if you can get it
Speaker 2: up there and get it into the wedge area so
Speaker 2: it puts. This is not the most demanding T shot,
Speaker 2: but of all the holes in Augusta, like among on
Speaker 2: the range of holes, this is one that if you
Speaker 2: hit a great T shot, you can make a three
Speaker 2: because it's so cool the way you can run it
Speaker 2: in you're hitting into a bowl. If you don't hit
Speaker 2: a good T shot and you can't get over the hill,
Speaker 2: then you've got like a third shot that's blind from
Speaker 2: an upslope lie and it's like, all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: five is hard. It's not far gone conclusion that I'm
Speaker 2: going to get out of here with five. So it's
Speaker 2: a great example again in a similar vein to nine,
Speaker 2: where it is not narrow. The corridor is not narrow.
Speaker 2: It's to the eye. It's not particular demanding, but the
Speaker 2: T shot is very demanding in the sense of if
Speaker 2: I don't hit a good one, I'm not it's going
Speaker 2: to be a very hard hole all of a sudden.
Speaker 2: On a hole that you feel like you stand on
Speaker 2: and you think you should score really well on.
Speaker 3: It's one of the holes that's true test to the
Speaker 3: original spirit of the Mackenzie and Jones design in the
Speaker 3: sense that it has one bunker, and the bunker is
Speaker 3: in just the right place, and the rest of the
Speaker 3: hole is about contour and slid topography. Yeah, hills and
Speaker 3: and and then you know contour is both big and
Speaker 3: small over that hill, the blindness, the sight lines that
Speaker 3: that that obstructs and creates, and then the smaller scale
Speaker 3: contouring around the green along the approach. It's all just
Speaker 3: it's it's kind of still there, and and the that
Speaker 3: the design in many ways is still intact there even
Speaker 3: though it's been rebuilt various times of the year over
Speaker 3: the years. I question whether there's there's kind of a
Speaker 3: little drop off at the front of the green. I'm
Speaker 3: not sure that should be there. But all in all,
Speaker 3: this is a hole that is significantly closer to its
Speaker 3: original form than than many of the rest of the
Speaker 3: holes at Augusta National and it still works really well.
Speaker 2: All right, what's your six?
Speaker 3: Number six for me? Is the first hole?
Speaker 2: Okay? Sure, we talked about that. Yeah, we talked about that.
Speaker 3: We talked about the first hole. I'm not sure I
Speaker 3: mentioned it's number six. I hope I have that right.
Speaker 3: In any case, what about your six hole?
Speaker 2: My six hole is the third hole?
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, so I have three as number two. All right.
Speaker 2: I think this is a hole that's gotten better with technology.
Speaker 2: I think this is the thing. As CB McDonald had
Speaker 2: a great quote in one of his books, I forgot
Speaker 2: which book. It was in Scotland's Gift probably where he
Speaker 2: talked about, like you know, obviously he lived through changes
Speaker 2: in equipment, but he said, some holes get worse with technology,
Speaker 2: some holes get better. I think this hole has gotten better.
Speaker 2: It poses a super interesting question, you know, do you
Speaker 2: want to lay it back onto the ridge or drive
Speaker 2: it down into the gully. I think it's insane that
Speaker 2: guys drive it down in the gullie. I mean, like
Speaker 2: I guess the numbers maybe have buried it out, but
Speaker 2: like I think that's an irrational decision. Yeah right there,
Speaker 2: because down there it just seems like impossible, Like it is,
Speaker 2: you're hitting them like a blind target with like a
Speaker 2: forty yard pitch with no green. But like they they
Speaker 2: they believe that. That being said, like you know, augusta National,
Speaker 2: outside of the par threes, you are never afforded an
Speaker 2: opportunity to hit a shot from a dead flat lie
Speaker 2: with a wedge. The third hole, if you lay back,
Speaker 2: affords you that exact situation, which is rare, and I
Speaker 2: just I'm like actually surprised more people don't exercise this
Speaker 2: decision because if you hit an iron or whatever these
Speaker 2: guys need to hit to that that ridge, you have
Speaker 2: the the you have one hundred yard wedge shot to
Speaker 2: a green at level and the green's amazing, it runs
Speaker 2: away super hard, which you would never be able to
Speaker 2: tell from TV because it sits up high on a ridge.
Speaker 3: And something that doesn't come through on TV is how
Speaker 3: intricate the contouring is behind the green. I mean really
Speaker 3: all around the green, but behind the green there's a
Speaker 3: lot going on. There are these little hummocks and drop
Speaker 3: offs and various things that can happen to you if
Speaker 3: you send your short second shot long and yeah, I
Speaker 3: mean I think that three is just a classic example
Speaker 3: of a short part four that works because of this
Speaker 3: kind of split fairway concept where you have the high
Speaker 3: middle right fairway near the bunkers and you have the
Speaker 3: low long left fairway, and that's the choice. It's a
Speaker 3: pretty stark choice. It's really one or the other because
Speaker 3: of the the or you can go for the green.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's it. I mean, some guys can do that,
Speaker 3: but it's really really hard to make that shot work.
Speaker 3: Even if you can hit it that far, it's got
Speaker 3: to be the right, it's got to be really precise.
Speaker 3: And so that's why you see relatively few modern players
Speaker 3: reaching that green with driver, though we might see more
Speaker 3: in the coming years, who knows. But that choice between
Speaker 3: high middle but a little bit farther away from the
Speaker 3: green and low left but the angle from there is
Speaker 3: just so uncomfortable, you know. I think it's a classic
Speaker 3: concept for a short part four that simply works, and
Speaker 3: that's why it has been so durable, great whole. Yeah,
Speaker 3: all right, So I had that as number two. You
Speaker 3: had that as maybe number six or five. My six
Speaker 3: is one, My fifth is fourteen. I had that five too, Yeah,
Speaker 3: that five, okay, Yeah, I mean this is all about
Speaker 3: the green here.
Speaker 2: I think the land's great too, because the land works
Speaker 2: against the green.
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly what you're trying to.
Speaker 2: Do with the green is completely counter to what the
Speaker 2: land's doing to you.
Speaker 3: Right, and then the angle of the tea accentuates what
Speaker 3: the land is doing.
Speaker 2: I love the t shot too, because like it's it's blind, right,
Speaker 2: you know, like you're sitting way down low, you just
Speaker 2: played thirteen and you're like, wait, now I gotta go
Speaker 2: up there.
Speaker 3: Do you wish they still had that huge bunker cut
Speaker 3: into the upslope on that te shot?
Speaker 2: I think, I mean I don't. I think it actually
Speaker 2: might be better without it.
Speaker 3: Interesting, Yeah, there have been I mean.
Speaker 2: The bunker where the bunker was, it seems like would
Speaker 2: be almost telling you to hit it the wrong place,
Speaker 2: because like you usually think with a bunker set into foreground,
Speaker 2: hit it right over it. But I think if it
Speaker 2: was there, you'd end up in the right rough with
Speaker 2: today's mowing lines. Right again, it's another hole that could
Speaker 2: just get a little wide.
Speaker 3: Trees are pretty thick on both sides of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: and yeah there should be you should have Because of
Speaker 3: the difficulty, complexity, brilliance of the green. It feels like
Speaker 3: a hole where you should just have a bunch of
Speaker 3: different options. You should just have this field where you
Speaker 3: can kind of pick and choose where you want to
Speaker 3: attack it. Yeah, and so I think that's the idea
Speaker 3: behind the design of the hole. I do want to mention.
Speaker 3: I mean the way that I sometimes talk about augusta nastional,
Speaker 3: I give the impression that I think everything about the
Speaker 3: older version of the course, or the original version of
Speaker 3: the course is better. I don't necessarily think that. I
Speaker 3: think that some changes have been good, and I think
Speaker 3: that eliminating that huge bunker that used to feature on
Speaker 3: the t shot might have actually been a pretty reasonable change.
Speaker 3: But you know, this whole, it all leads to this green.
Speaker 3: It's one of those ultimate green backwards holes. Once you
Speaker 3: look at the green. Then the rest of the hole
Speaker 3: comes into focus and starts to make sense strategically. And
Speaker 3: it's just hard to describe this green like it's got
Speaker 3: these two huge humps in it. You know, it's basically
Speaker 3: a big false front, but you know it's it seems
Speaker 3: like more than that. It's it's a little bit farther
Speaker 3: into the green and then all these little pockets and
Speaker 3: sections in the back and so so much is dependent
Speaker 3: on where the pin is, what you want to do
Speaker 3: off the tea and yeah, just fantastic hole, bunkerless.
Speaker 2: Now, yeahs an awesome hole. Amazing hole. I really really love.
Speaker 2: When I played last year, my most disappointing moment was
Speaker 2: not hitting this fairway because I really wanted to hit
Speaker 2: the proach shot from the fairway, Like, honestly, like probably
Speaker 2: one of the shots that I most wanted to hit
Speaker 2: at Augusta National. I ended up in the way and
Speaker 2: the trees, right, I hit an amazing shot to make
Speaker 2: to hit the green, like, I kind of had to
Speaker 2: hit it up through trees, and but like I didn't
Speaker 2: want I wanted to just hit a standard approach.
Speaker 3: Would you have chipped out sideways? You know what it
Speaker 3: was like just for the experience.
Speaker 2: D a couple of verdies, I mean actually almost made.
Speaker 2: I almost made a pot from down right to like
Speaker 2: where the Sunday pin was back left. I almost made
Speaker 2: that pot. So I was pretty happy about. Like the
Speaker 2: way the hole played out despite not hitting the fairway,
Speaker 2: very memorable. All right.
Speaker 3: So that's five for both of us. What's four for you?
Speaker 2: Four for me is whole ten? We already talked about it.
Speaker 2: What's your four hole?
Speaker 3: Eight? We already talked about it. What is number three
Speaker 3: for you?
Speaker 2: Six? We already talked about For me, it's thirteen. All right,
Speaker 2: this was one for me.
Speaker 3: This hole has been brutalized. That's why it's not one
Speaker 3: for me.
Speaker 2: All right, So let me let me make the case
Speaker 2: of why it was one for me.
Speaker 3: Okay, I thought, it's the greatest hole in the world, right,
Speaker 3: I think it's this is the greatest designed hole in
Speaker 3: the world.
Speaker 2: I thought about what hole do I want to play
Speaker 2: the most, over and over and over and over again.
Speaker 2: Which hole If I took any hole from August National
Speaker 2: and put it in my backyard, which one would I
Speaker 2: most want to have?
Speaker 3: Which one with you?
Speaker 2: Which? Yes, even in this current state, which one do
Speaker 2: I find the most endlessly compelling. Which one would would
Speaker 2: I garner the most joy from playing a thousand times
Speaker 2: and I came to this one. There is no hole
Speaker 2: that is interesting from t to green than this hole.
Speaker 2: Listen like they're like, I cannot believe. I'm gonna call bullshit.
Speaker 2: I cannot believe that the third freaking hole is in
Speaker 2: front of thirteen. For you, that is that is preposterous.
Speaker 3: I'm sending a message. I'm sending a message. I know
Speaker 3: what you're doing, but it's absolutely sends. It's insane. No,
Speaker 3: I think we need to make a stand. We need
Speaker 3: to make a stand against the wasp wasted fair way
Speaker 3: on thirteen. It's an abomination how expensive it needs to go.
Speaker 3: This is the greatest golf hole in the world, and
Speaker 3: you're bringing the trees in so far that the drive
Speaker 3: is no longer the drive. The shot is no longer
Speaker 3: the shot. You know, this is a it's an interesting
Speaker 3: hole to see pros try to negotiate, but it has
Speaker 3: become a little bit ridiculous. Off the tee now the
Speaker 3: second shot is intact, and it's such a great second shot,
Speaker 3: whether you're laying up or going for the green and Obviously,
Speaker 3: everybody knows that the way the land moves and the
Speaker 3: way the green is and the way the creek is,
Speaker 3: all that is very familiar to everybody. I wish they
Speaker 3: would expand that green out to the left a bit,
Speaker 3: recapture a section of that green that used to exist.
Speaker 3: I think that would really enhance the hole overall. So
Speaker 3: that's another point about the hole that I'm not super
Speaker 3: happy with. But I mean, you could say that about
Speaker 3: any umber of other holes Augusta. But the main thing
Speaker 3: is turning that drive, which should be the ultimate kind
Speaker 3: of optionality drive at Augusta, and making it a draw execution.
Speaker 2: So you have twelve number one?
Speaker 3: Yes? I do?
Speaker 2: I have a number two?
Speaker 3: Yeah? What do you?
Speaker 1: So?
Speaker 3: You have twelve? Is number two? Okay? Perfect? So we've
Speaker 3: made we've made our argument about thirteen. You've registered your
Speaker 3: displeasure with me putting three above it, and listen, I
Speaker 3: understand that. Well, let me ask question make the decisions
Speaker 3: on thirteen.
Speaker 2: Would you rather have in your backyard? Thirteen? I didn't
Speaker 2: use that you would you rather which hole would you
Speaker 2: rather play one hundred times three or thirteen?
Speaker 3: I didn't use that criterion in determining.
Speaker 2: I just want to I've crossed examining the witness right now,
Speaker 2: and I have a few questions.
Speaker 3: You know what, I'm going to answer the backyard question.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't want to put thirteen in my back here
Speaker 3: because every time I'd look at the trees, it would
Speaker 3: make me sad and it would make me angry, and
Speaker 3: I wouldn't be able to be a good father to
Speaker 3: my children as a result. So that's that's all I
Speaker 3: have to say about that.
Speaker 2: All I'm gonna say. If thirteen in its current state
Speaker 2: was what Alistair McKenzie designed, it'd be number one on
Speaker 2: your list.
Speaker 3: Of course it would be. It would be no contest.
Speaker 3: It's the greatest hole in the worrule.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: I'm saying, what if if thirteen today was what was
Speaker 2: there in thirty four, if the trees were just there,
Speaker 2: if they didn't clear it out, if that hole was
Speaker 2: what it is today, Oh what they put in the
Speaker 2: ground in thirty four, Okay, it'd be your number one.
Speaker 3: This is a counterfactual. This is this is invented history.
Speaker 3: I don't I don't. I don't accept the idea that
Speaker 3: they would decide to design the hole as it's currently.
Speaker 3: I'm just saying.
Speaker 2: That this would be the case.
Speaker 3: I mean, you can pretend that, but again counterfactual. That's
Speaker 3: that's not how history unfolded. Why don't we talk about
Speaker 3: twelve in a way. It's kind of number one by default.
Speaker 3: I had to think about this a little bit because
Speaker 3: I knew I wasn't gonna put thirteen number one. It
Speaker 3: wasn't a case where I went straight to twelve and said,
Speaker 3: that's clearly my number one. It was more like I
Speaker 3: had to go through a process of elimination and realize
Speaker 3: that twelve was the one that was left. But my
Speaker 3: justification for it is that it's the greatest par three
Speaker 3: t shot to watch in a golf tournament in the world,
Speaker 3: bar none, by far. There's no contest. That's it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the angle of the green's amazing.
Speaker 3: Angle of the green's amazing.
Speaker 2: Shallowness of the greens amazing.
Speaker 3: The wind is amazing. The way the whole environment works
Speaker 3: on that whole it is just incredible. And every time
Speaker 3: players come to that hole in the final round of
Speaker 3: the Masters, I can't believe how lucky I am to
Speaker 3: get to watch another group of players hit that shot
Speaker 3: into the green under such intense pressure. It's so wonderful,
Speaker 3: and a lot of it is intangible. You know, you
Speaker 3: could talk about the angle of the green and the
Speaker 3: placement of the bunker and all that kind of stuff,
Speaker 3: but there is there. You know, a lot of this
Speaker 3: is mystique. A lot of this is history and memory,
Speaker 3: the stuff that we said we would keep out of this,
Speaker 3: But I think with the twelfth hole at Augusta, you
Speaker 3: can't keep that out of it. I think all of
Speaker 3: that affects the shot that players hit on that hole.
Speaker 3: And yeah, I just think there's nothing like it in
Speaker 3: the world of golf, and it works every single time. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I Hey, you know why it's number two for me?
Speaker 2: Why so much of Augustin National is about the really
Speaker 2: cool greens. We didn't even talk about how cool thirteenth
Speaker 2: green is that. You know, I thought we were going
Speaker 2: to spend I thought we were going to spend ten
Speaker 2: minutes talking about why it's the greatest hole in the
Speaker 2: world and why it's the number one, number one on
Speaker 2: both our list, You're so sure enough. Instead we're talking
Speaker 2: about how how it preposterously was behind the third hole
Speaker 2: on your list.
Speaker 3: You have six is number three? Yeah, should I have
Speaker 3: shot it about that, Yeah.
Speaker 2: You could have.
Speaker 3: You could have this is right behind thirteen. You have six.
Speaker 2: Well, so anyways, twelve, if I'm going to make a critique,
Speaker 2: everything's about the cool green contours like thirteen green contour, amazing,
Speaker 2: amazing contour and it and it fits with the land right.
Speaker 2: If you're playing in from the left side, everything kind
Speaker 2: of helps you there. If you're playing in from the right,
Speaker 2: it's harder to use the bowl, you kind of and
Speaker 2: so anyways, twelve, it's really flat. Absolutely, you kind of
Speaker 2: get on the green and you're like, huh.
Speaker 3: But you could argue that that's kind of a virtue
Speaker 3: of it.
Speaker 2: It is a virtue.
Speaker 1: It is.
Speaker 3: It's variety, it's very it's variety in the round. But
Speaker 3: it's also just like you hit the green, it's enough
Speaker 3: as it is that what we have. You know, you
Speaker 3: can you can almost recreate the thought process that went
Speaker 3: behind making that green, unlike the rest of them making
Speaker 3: it basically dead flat. And I think the thought process was,
Speaker 3: look at what this hole is, we don't need to
Speaker 3: introduce any more elements to it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's number two on my list. Absolutely.
Speaker 2: I wanted to say why it wasn't number one. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 2: all right, just a key takeaway I had, sure, I
Speaker 2: think a lot of it's very hard to get to
Speaker 2: design par fives in the modern era this golf course. Uh,
Speaker 2: the par fives I had, Whole two was number eight,
Speaker 2: holl eight was number seven, Whole thirteen was number one,
Speaker 2: and whole fifteen was number nine. I would have a
Speaker 2: hard time. I just I can't think of another course
Speaker 2: with as many great par fives like every par five is.
Speaker 3: It's great as a set, yes, you know, because there's
Speaker 3: there's so much variety as to what makes each of
Speaker 3: those holes interesting, right because on two it's the land,
Speaker 3: it's all about that piece of land. On eight it's
Speaker 3: kind of like that. That the strategy, that one bunker
Speaker 3: and the green complex. So I could go through the
Speaker 3: part fives like this, but each each one stands out
Speaker 3: for a different reason.
Speaker 2: It's stunning. It's a stunning set. I mean it goes
Speaker 2: with the par threes. The par threes are really good.
Speaker 3: Obviously, are there any holes where we were discussing them
Speaker 3: and you thought to yourself, I wish I'd put this
Speaker 3: in a different place where I could be argued into
Speaker 3: putting it in a different place.
Speaker 2: I think I'm going to turn the tables and ask
Speaker 2: you that question.
Speaker 3: Do I have to apologize for putting three above thirteen?
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm gonna get ripped on you know, social
Speaker 3: media for this anyway. Yeah, I acknowledge that that it
Speaker 3: looks ridiculous. But guess why so does the drive on thirteen.
Speaker 2: You know, when I look at it, I do think
Speaker 2: it's kind of crazy. I put eighteen seventeen. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: that's how the cookie crumbled. By first go listen.
Speaker 3: This was not me.
Speaker 2: I did not deliberate over this. This was a gut reaction.
Speaker 2: This is what the numbers feelings based.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I could be, but we've had a discussion now,
Speaker 3: and we've had some time to reflect. I think it's
Speaker 3: interesting to look at and reflect ten. For me, I
Speaker 3: had it at number seven. That could be higher. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I think I feel like ten is better than one.
Speaker 3: I had one above it. Yeah, I can see that
Speaker 3: overall though fairly. I mean the spirit of our lists
Speaker 3: kind of similar, which is not surprising because you and
Speaker 3: I believe in in kind of similar architectural principles. But
Speaker 3: but there were some similarities in the list.
Speaker 2: We should have We should have had someone like Rhys
Speaker 2: Jones on to do this exercise.
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe different school.
Speaker 2: Maybe the nextideration is we get somebody that just has
Speaker 2: like completely different thoughts on golf courses and we put them,
Speaker 2: you know, in the in the rating show.
Speaker 3: I could think of a few people who would do
Speaker 3: that pretty well.
Speaker 2: All right, Garrett, thank you uh for coming on uh
Speaker 2: and being a part of this podcast. Big Matt rusis
Speaker 2: working hard this week.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, he's a hard working man.
Speaker 2: He was he's uh now now he's back to doing production.
Speaker 2: He was doing lots of shooting early in the week.
Speaker 3: He produced this episode, right, he did what.
Speaker 2: Do you want to What do you want to remind
Speaker 2: people to do? What should they be doing this week?
Speaker 2: It's a master's week. To the middle of the week,
Speaker 2: there's probably been a content fawcet. I mean, we're at
Speaker 2: the at the tip of the content faucet when we're
Speaker 2: recording this. But what what do you think they should do?
Speaker 2: What's the one thing they should do they enjoy the
Speaker 2: Frida egg.
Speaker 3: I think you should consider subscribing to Club TFE if
Speaker 3: you enjoy.
Speaker 2: What we're joining now joining, not subscribing.
Speaker 3: Should not use the word subscribe.
Speaker 2: I have a subscription.
Speaker 3: It's a membership you're joining, You're joining the membership. Okay,
Speaker 3: I was off brand there for a second. I apologize. Yeah,
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Speaker 3: consider you know, whether you have had fun listening to
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Speaker 2: All right, We'll be back next week with a with
Speaker 2: a Master's recap. But thanks for listening. I hope everybody
Speaker 2: has a great Master's Weekend.