1 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Stephanomics, the podcast that brings 2 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: the global economy to you. In the past few weeks, 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 1: much of the world has been entering its second year 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: of the COVID nineteen pandemic, taking stock of all that's 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: been lost, also looking forward to what we might soon regain, 6 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: meeting with friends, being happy as part of a crowd hugs. 7 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: In a few minutes, we're going to hear what the 8 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: world looks like right now to Bloomberg correspondents dotted around 9 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: the world in Brazil, Canada, Mauritius, and Moscow. The economist 10 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: and author Dan Bisa Moyo. It is also going to 11 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: tell me how things look from her perch on the 12 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: board of two major global companies. But first, we surely 13 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: have to talk about the Suez Canal. Now, regular listeners 14 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: of Stephonomics will know we have a fascination with the 15 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: basic plumbing of the globe of economy, and especially container ships. 16 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: This is usually a minority sport, but in the past 17 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: couple of weeks the whole world has been getting into 18 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 1: the subject thanks to the Ever given that massive container 19 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: ship which got stuck on the Sewers Canal, it was 20 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:19,680 Speaker 1: longer than the Eiffel Tower, weighed two and twenty thousand tons. 21 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: It was freed eventually this week, but not before causing 22 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: a massive traffic jam on the most important strip of 23 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: water on the planet. Our chief energy correspondent, have you 24 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: a blast, understood better than most what was at stake 25 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: in this snarl up. He's with me now, have you. 26 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: Let's start with a quick update that the ship has 27 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: been freed, but how long will we be living with 28 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: the after effects? It's going to take a few days 29 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: to definitely need to clear. There are about four hundred 30 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: bestsells waiting on both sides north and south of the canal, 31 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,639 Speaker 1: and a few actually the wet trap inside the canal 32 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: and what we call the Baad legs um. It's just 33 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: probably going to take a good week before things go 34 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: back to normal because the Egyptian authorities, first of all, 35 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: they need to clear all that backlog and then also 36 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: deal with the usual fifty to sixty vessels a day 37 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: that that that call onto the Swebt Canal to to translate. 38 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: So it's not just clearing the they accumulated a number 39 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 1: of vessels. It's also just starting to a low passage 40 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: of the of the vessel that regularly crossed, So I 41 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: would think that things will get normal by the middle 42 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: of April. That's probably the easiest. And and I suspect 43 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: that they authorities are going to be a bit more caucious, 44 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: particularly we have strong winds which are seasonally a strong 45 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: this time of the year in in in that part 46 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: of of of the canal. They don't want, certainly to 47 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: see another vessel running the ground, So I think that 48 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: they're going to be extremely caucious. Well, I was surprised 49 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 1: looking at one of your articles about this, and you 50 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: certainly pointed up about the weather that the wind is 51 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: quite happens quite a lot that you get that kind 52 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: of wind, But I was struck by how difficult it 53 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 1: sounded to actually go through. So it's canal. You think 54 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: it would be something that pilots and of these ships 55 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: would be quite relaxed about, but they were saying it's 56 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: it's pretty difficult every time. It's quite eaceiving because you 57 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: see and and and it looks quite quite easy, a 58 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: strip of dessert on both sides of the canal, a 59 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: channel of water, and and and it's not open sea, 60 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: it's a canal, so it's it's almost like a pond. 61 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: Do you think what could go wrong? Well, many things 62 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,119 Speaker 1: go wrong, and it's very narrow. Um. The deepest part 63 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 1: of the canal, which is the part of these vessels 64 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: and the big oil tankers need, is about two only wide, 65 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: and these pasils are about fifty to sixty Why so 66 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: there is not a lot of another lot of runoff 67 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: maneuver to to make a mistake, So a distraction, a 68 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: human error, a strawn push of the wind. And then 69 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: is also the fact that, in the case of the 70 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: ever Given, was not using an escort took boat, which 71 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: is normal for vessels of that size. We don't know 72 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:02,119 Speaker 1: why it was not. It was not a legal requirement 73 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: by the canal. But but we know that the two 74 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: vessels in front of the ever Given, we're using one, 75 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: and probably if a talk aboat have been there, it 76 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: will have been most likely able to prevent the accident 77 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 1: of at least minimize the grounding of the ever Given. Um. 78 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: But yes, I spoke to several captains who have crossed 79 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: the Sweat canal many, many, many times, and they say, 80 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: there it's quite the sivin and it can be quite tricky. 81 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: Should we be surprised that it doesn't happen more often. 82 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,239 Speaker 1: I mean, this feels like the first time it's happened 83 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: in a long time. It is actually the longest closure 84 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: of the canal since the six Day watered in nineteen 85 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: sixties seven. At that time the canal was closed for 86 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: eight years. In mind, in the world of today, we 87 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: have to face an eight year closure of the of 88 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 1: the of the Sweat Canal. I mean, certainly we could 89 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: say goodbye to to click on Amazon dot Com and 90 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 1: getting achievement the following day with whatever we want it. Mhm. 91 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: So you mentioned Amazon. I mean this is one of 92 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: those things that once caught short. You know that there's 93 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: this disconnecting the global economy that seems more and more 94 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: stark between. We live in this kind of cyber age 95 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: one touch internet shopping on the one hand, but we're 96 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: still also living still in the age of ships and 97 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: crates and cranes, and that the two very much reliant 98 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: on one another. Yes, the reminder of the of the 99 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: events of recent days of the canal have been that 100 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: is still the wall needs physical goods, and those goods, 101 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: whether they are commotives or they are consumer goods, and 102 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: they're transported in a container. They need to be sheep 103 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 1: over great distances and that is mostly done by by 104 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: by bye see. And that requires an enormous infrastructure that 105 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: we often take for granted. It needs a functioning imports 106 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:58,559 Speaker 1: in China and the workshops of of Asia. It needs 107 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: functioning shipping lines. It needs obviously the Sweb Canal, and 108 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: it needs also ports and custom officials able to clear 109 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: all these enormous amount of traffic that is coming into 110 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: the consumer countries in the West, whether it's Europe, of 111 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: the United States, Canada, etcetera, etcetera. And and that infrastructure 112 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: we take it for granted, but a lot of it 113 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: it creates chalk points. It's not used the Sweatcanal. There 114 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 1: are other geographical points like the Strait of Malacca or 115 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: pipelines for oil or ports that they really are essential 116 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 1: for the global economy. And and a problem there and 117 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 1: all of the sudden that kind of new economy that 118 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: we have got used to, particularly in this last year 119 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: of the pandemic, where we can buy everything online, will 120 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: will suffer and it will become impossible to sustain. It 121 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: is interesting though, because the SERIEUS Canal has what's going 122 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: through the service can has changed a lot in the 123 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: last few decades, even though it continues to be remarkably 124 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: important for world trade. And that's something I guess you're 125 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: particularly attuned to because you're normally focused on the energy 126 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: and commodities. But yeah, for me, if these crisis have 127 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: happened twenty years ago, the big impact would have not 128 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: been on the container market. It will have been on 129 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: the oil market. We have we will have seen oil 130 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: prices spiking because it was the time where the Sweat 131 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: Canal was the main waterway to send the Middle East 132 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: oil into the consuming markets of Europe and particularly the 133 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: United States. Today, that oil doesn't mean the canal because 134 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: it goes to the East, it goes to India, it 135 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: goes to China. So um, the the and the market. Remarkably, 136 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: we are still on the oil market. We talked about 137 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: ease and words of Suez as the kind of the 138 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: geographical split of the market. Many traders a specialized on 139 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: ease of swept market, and that market was for many yes, 140 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: a bit of a residual market. It was a big 141 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: demand of Japan and South Korea. But I was about 142 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: it today, Really the demand is on the East, so 143 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: the oil doesn't meet the canal. But over the last 144 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: couple of decays, the canal has become more and more 145 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: important for the transit of containers transporting goods that they 146 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: are produced in China and other countries in Asia into 147 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: the consumer markets in Europe and into into the America's 148 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: But it's still very important for certain commodities. I mean, 149 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: one of our biggest concerns of the commodities team over 150 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: the last few days was whether the coffee supply, which 151 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: is something that I care quite a lot because I 152 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: do like my Ethiopian coffee every morning, and and and 153 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: coffee is transported by container and mostly from East Africa 154 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: into the Sweb Canal, into the coffee roasters of Netherlands 155 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: in particular, and then to the consumers in Europe. So 156 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: one of the consequences of the closure of the Web 157 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: can I will have been that my my morning coffee 158 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: will have been seriously disrupted, and potentially also tea, which 159 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: is transported this a very same way. That could have 160 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: been completely disastrous. Well, you have you've written a fantastic 161 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: but with your colleague Jack Facci, about the world of 162 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: commodity trading, the world for sale. It's called and apart 163 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 1: from just giving it a plug. I would did it 164 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: did wonder whether the reporting for that book and you're 165 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: reporting generally meant that you're aware of other sort of 166 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: real vulnerabilities within the global economy that we might not 167 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: think about now, but we could overnight suddenly realize their importance. Well, 168 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: the swift kind of was one of those places where 169 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: we have seen a lot of a lot of the 170 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: biggest commority traders of of this wall of today. You 171 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: think about names like Beatalk, which is the worlds lagert 172 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: oil trader, or Cargill the worlds lagest agricultural trader. They 173 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,359 Speaker 1: may money over the years at times because supply disruptions 174 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: link to this swift canal. I mean, when there was 175 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 1: war in the mid at least there was an opportunity 176 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,079 Speaker 1: because they were always the threat of closure of the 177 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: Swebt canal and for these traders was essential. But yeah, 178 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: to me, what really reminds the Swebt Canal and researching 179 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: about the role of the commoti traders is that this 180 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: wall of today still requires an enormous amount of physical goods, 181 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: most of them commotives, and those those goods need to 182 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: be transported physically and that relies on pipelines, on pores, 183 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:32,359 Speaker 1: on export terminals, the physical assets that they are vulnerable 184 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 1: to any kind of disruption. It could be whether we 185 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: recently so coal prices in Australia jumping just because it 186 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: was the strongest range in a hundred years in that 187 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 1: particular region of Australia. Recently we saw a drawn attack 188 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: by geminy rebel hoodies into the rast and Ura terminal 189 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: in Saudi Arabia that is potentially the most important real 190 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: estate peace or in the oil industry, that de terminal 191 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,599 Speaker 1: where Saudi Arabia sport most of his oil. That was 192 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: attack and destroy. We will lose about ten per cent 193 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: of global oil supply. And it's a good reminder at 194 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: times that a lot of the things that we take 195 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: for granted rely on physical infrastructure that could fail. And 196 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: in an economy that is today more globalized and more 197 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: just in time, where companies carry fewer and fewer inventories, 198 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: it makes the world really suffered a lot in that 199 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: loan supply chain of just in time commodities and goods 200 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: get disrupted. Of course, one of the things that did 201 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: disrupt that in a big way a year ago was 202 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: the pandemic, and we've been been living with the with 203 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: the trade consequences and the cues of containerships, along with 204 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: all of the economic and the and the public health 205 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: consequence as well. Have you I suspect we could have 206 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: a conversation about what, in what specifically are the most 207 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: vulnerable points of the US economy. We might get in 208 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: trouble for that be giving too much away, so we 209 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 1: will we will leave it there, but thank you very much. 210 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: Thank you. M Now back to the pandemic. We asked 211 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: Bloomberg economic reporters around the world to tell us what 212 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: the world looked like to them after a year of 213 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: living with COVID ninet. Here they are our postcards from 214 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: the pandemic, starting, of course, on the beach, the world 215 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: famous Corpla Alana Beach is unusually quiet. I come here 216 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: for some people watching and cocktails, but like in most 217 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: of Brazil, the party has been shut down. Lockdowns are 218 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: being reinstated to fight a second wave of the coronavirus. 219 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 1: Their latest measures to try and contain one of the 220 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:03,439 Speaker 1: world's worst phrase and they're assigned that after year of pandemic, 221 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: a health and physical crisis is spiraling out of control. 222 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: Last week, Brazil became only the second country at the 223 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: top three thousand coronavirus deaths. Brazilians are increasingly blaming President 224 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 1: Jay R. Bosonaro. Critics say he tried to put jobs 225 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 1: over lives. Since the onset of the pandemic. He's played 226 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: down the virus and fought restrictions while his government had 227 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: pushed through one of the world's largest stimulus packages last year. 228 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: It was an all out effort to keep the economy rolling, 229 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: but it may have backfired. The problem is that far 230 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: less effort went into actually containing the pandemic. Now the 231 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 1: health system is being pushed to the brink by contagious 232 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,599 Speaker 1: new strains of the virus, while the government scrambles to 233 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: supply vaccines that stashing hopes of a speedy recovery. The 234 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,719 Speaker 1: central Bank recently hyped interest rates the most and more 235 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: than a decade to help ease investor fears. As more 236 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: aid as being dispersed, the worry goes beyond just rising 237 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: inflation in Brazil's shaky public finances. Hundreds of Brazil's top 238 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: businessmen and economists recently signed a warning that the recession 239 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: won't end until the pandemic is controlled. Bilsonara seems to 240 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: be feeling the heat. He's still a little mail. Can't 241 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: you finish? Thank you? After spending a year of voicing 242 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: doubts about medical advice and vaccines, he pulled a U 243 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: turn in the national address last month's declaring that would 244 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: be the year of the vaccine and promising that life 245 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: would return to normal soon. Many were unconvinced. Across big cities, 246 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: pots and pans clang that a former protest here called 247 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: upon a lasso. I had heard a few who sends 248 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: arriving to Rio, but not as loud as this one. 249 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: Bolsonaro seems to be trying to change course, and he 250 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: just resuffled his cabinet. Still, if he doesn't turn things around, 251 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: will likely be hearing a lot more of this in 252 00:14:54,960 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: Rio de Jnedo. I'm Andrew Rosatti. Here on the Indian 253 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: Ocean island of Mauritias. The situation is almost identical to 254 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: a year ago. Last year we were a complete lockdown 255 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: to stop the propagation of the coronavirus in this country 256 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: of one point three million people. Now we are struggling 257 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: through a second one. New cases are coming intense, There 258 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: are fears and choices to make. Do we need a 259 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: partial reopening of non essential businesses like head dressers, or 260 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: should the government impose a very strict lockdown and sanitary 261 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: few There are no clear answers, but from today non 262 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: essential economic activities including fast food or scheduled to be 263 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: accessible again. While we debate the ifs and whatnots of 264 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen, the Finance Ministry is facing a dounting task. 265 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: Can you imagine? Public sector debt has sold eighty five 266 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: percent of gross domestic product, far higher than the sixty 267 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: percent level required by institutions like the International Monetary Fund. 268 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: But this is the problem on the treasuries on making. 269 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: When the pandemic hit our economy, we knew what could 270 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: happen with tourism of a flagship industry being brought to 271 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: a stencil. Massive layoffs would be inevitable. One estimate was 272 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: four hundred thousand job losses, a huge number in this 273 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: relatively small nation that risks economic and social turmoil. Hence, 274 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: the choice was made to support companies and the economitry 275 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: Wage Assistant scheme Already coping with lower revenue, The treasury 276 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: paid part of the wages of the private sector. When 277 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: the first confinement was lifted last year, most of us 278 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: rushed to spend money accrued in our accounts, But after 279 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: that initial adronal in rush of shopping, we became more 280 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: cautious in spending as the economy was still wrobbly with 281 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 1: only uncertainty insight. Now we are in a second lockdown 282 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 1: and the tourism industry is still on life support. The 283 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 1: government has dispersed about seventy five million dollars, with more 284 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: money expected, but this time we don't expect the prolaunched 285 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: geniversity from the government that other countries are seeing. Even 286 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 1: as Mauritius tries to clow its way out of its 287 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: biggest clop in forty years, the treasury is already trying 288 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 1: to cut spending. Now. The money needs to be spent 289 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: in a way that will help desil in economy onto 290 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 1: the path of recovery, and such a path, as all 291 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 1: Mauritians would agree, is still a distant line. We are 292 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: far from herd immunity and vaccines are getting scarce on 293 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: the world market, but we are playing on our diplomatic 294 00:17:56,040 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: ties with India, China, Russia. If not, just like our 295 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: confinement will be lengthened and there will be more cattle 296 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: on our beach than people. A knife in the heart 297 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: for our tourism reliant economy in Mauritius um Comers book. 298 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: Since the earliest days of the pandemic, Canadians were looking 299 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: at the US with shock at how the pandemic was 300 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: unfolding there. The US was seen an explosion of COVID 301 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: cases and deaths in hospitals were getting overrun well. Canada 302 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: at the time was able to keep its case counts 303 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: relatively low last spring and throughout the summer. But it's 304 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: now been more than a year into the pandemic in 305 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 1: parts of Canada are experiencing a third wave which is 306 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: threatening even more lockdowns. Well south of the border in 307 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: the US, many states have reopened and back seeing rollouts 308 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: are accelerating. So in a way, Canadians have gone from 309 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 1: looking at the US with complete horror to now looking 310 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: south and seeing their counterparts being able to get vaccinated 311 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: and able to enjoy activities that some Canadians still can't, 312 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: like eating inside a restaurant or going to a yoga class. 313 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: I've been able to witness this change in the tone 314 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 1: of Canadians from being accepting of the lockdowns in the 315 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:30,360 Speaker 1: beginning to now feeling frustration around the government's policies and 316 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: how they have not been able to figure out a 317 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: way to reopen safely. I actually returned to Texas, where 318 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: my family lives, during the holidays around in December, and 319 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: that was around the time when Canada's most populous provinces, 320 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 1: Ontario and Quebec, we're experiencing a second wave of virus 321 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: cases and they decided to shut everything down again for 322 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 1: more than a month. So the restrictions were even tighter 323 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: than what they experienced last spring. In Texas. Why was 324 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: there the governor announced everything could return to a percent 325 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: capacity and they ended the mass mandate. While they're on Ontario, 326 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: you couldn't go inside a non essential store. So certainly 327 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 1: Canada's tighter restrictions have meant a better health outcome, even 328 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: though they have been less restrictive on people's personal freedoms. 329 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: Canada has had fewer deaths and case counts per million 330 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 1: people in the US, but it's clear there have been 331 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: economic trade offs. So last year, the US economy outperformed Canada's, 332 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 1: contracting only three and a half percent, whereas Canada's economy 333 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 1: contracted by five point four percent. In Canada is expected 334 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 1: to continue under performing this year because it does have 335 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: a slower vaccine rollout, there is lower natural immunity in Canada, 336 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: a fewer people have been exposed to the virus, so 337 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: there's more chance of the third wave and future waves 338 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: then in the US, and Canada has not deployed as 339 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: much fiscal stimulus as we have seen in the US. 340 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: Now in recent months, Canada's government has deployed a series 341 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: of measures to curb the spread of COVID and its variance. 342 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: As we saw that second wave takeover in December, so 343 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: we had the Canadian government extend its border closures. Borders 344 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 1: have been closed for more than a year. They ramped 345 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: up COVID protocols for people entering the country, including mandatory 346 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: COVID test and mandatory hotel quarantines. But unfortunately this just 347 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: hasn't been enough, and the country is experiencing a third 348 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: wave of virus cases that is threatening to close down 349 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: more businesses once again. Since COVID, he'd here in Russia 350 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: year go, like many around the world, I've been working 351 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: from home, but for the majority of Russians, the stay 352 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: at home mode lasted only a few months, and some 353 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: never even had it. President Vladimir Putin boasts that the 354 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: economy shrank class than many of its peers, but he 355 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: didn't impose a second major lockdown, and many industries continue 356 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 1: working throughout the pandemic. Also, Russia's service actor is smaller 357 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 1: than in other nations, so while it suffered as people 358 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: preferred to stay at home, it didn't drag the economy 359 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: down as much as in other places. The Kremlin gets 360 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 1: credit for giving support and even direct handouts to families 361 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 1: with kids, but the measures are now winding down and 362 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: businesses complain it wasn't enough. As a government, you can 363 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: spend on this so much, especially when you know that 364 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: oil prices may take another dive or harsher sanctions may come, 365 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: curtailing your ability to borrow. Russia is back to building 366 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: its financial fortress, and you cannot do both. Give lavish 367 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 1: support and build or redoubt. But keeping things open and 368 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,640 Speaker 1: having fewer restrictions it comes with the price. Russia's death 369 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: doll was among the highest in the world last year. 370 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: Incomes have fallen again then now ten percent down from 371 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: and a drope in the rubble, and the spike in 372 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: food prices have further deteriorated living standards. Russians who do 373 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: have the money to spend have now picked up consumptions 374 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: so much that even it added to inflation pressure. The 375 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: central bank got concerned and started raising rates earlier than expected, 376 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 1: and those higher rates make cool of the recovery. Even 377 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: where things are open, COVID is living its disconcerting mark. 378 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: I went to a theater here in Moscow recently and 379 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,120 Speaker 1: there was a mannequin sitting in every other seat, marking 380 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: the separation. Actually it was just the torso with no 381 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: arms and wearing a black turtleneck. It creeped me out, 382 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: but then again, so many experiences are different now because 383 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 1: of the pandemic. While we are looking at the performance, 384 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: I thought that we the spectators were also quite a 385 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,959 Speaker 1: spectacle to see from the stage a bunch of armless 386 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 1: torsos and people wearing masks from Moscow and Andrea Anama 387 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: Bloomberg News. Now we've heard quite a lot from reporters 388 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: and economists in the past year on stoephonomics, but this week, 389 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: at a special Bloomberg work Shifting event, I interviewed someone 390 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 1: in the unusual position of being not only a respected author, 391 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,719 Speaker 1: and economist, but also on the board of two major 392 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: global companies. Dr Danbisa Moyo is on the board of 393 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: Chevron and three Am. She's written many influential books on 394 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: the global economy and as a new one out called 395 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: How Boards Work. We're going to end this week's show 396 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 1: with a few minutes of that conversation, what is the 397 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: most pressing thing right now as we look for You know, 398 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: we got optimism about the recovery, but also a question 399 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: mark about the future of work life, balance, the future 400 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: of cities, all these things. Where do you start if 401 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,959 Speaker 1: you're if you're a big global company. Well, first of all, 402 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: I would just say that you know, there's no doubt 403 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: we're going to see a rebound this year. I mean, 404 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: you've seen the FED new forecasts, look at China's forecast 405 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: for growth this year. But I think we shouldn't delude 406 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: ourselves into thinking that this is a fundamental recovery. We 407 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: have not solved the debt problem that has gotten even bigger. 408 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: So there's are still a lot of structural challenges, many 409 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: structural challenges that we need to address, and we shouldn't 410 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 1: think that we're out of the woods. Um now that 411 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: aggregant demand, we will be back up. UM. But I 412 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: think that the it's your specific question about what, to 413 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 1: me is the most important question is really defining what 414 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: a worker is, what is an employee? UM. What has 415 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 1: become clear is that you know, although on paper you 416 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 1: could have ten thousand full time employees, but you can 417 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 1: very easily have a hundred thousand subcontractors. UM. During the pandemic, 418 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: we had to UM. You know, as as business leaders 419 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: understand that that delineation was was a falsehood. And I 420 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: think as governments and UH and business leaders think about 421 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: the recovery and think about how digitization and remote working 422 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: are going to become even more central to the discussion 423 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: of who a worker is. UM. I do think that 424 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: this is the big issue. It leads to questions around 425 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 1: mental illness, mental challenges, and who's going to pay for 426 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: those costs. It leads to more stark brings into more 427 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 1: stark relief, the questions around retooling and reskilling workers in 428 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: a world that we know is becoming more technical, technologically focused, 429 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: and so you know, who exactly are your workers, how 430 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,120 Speaker 1: do we define those workers and what does that mean 431 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: in terms of obligations for business leaders? And for government. 432 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,439 Speaker 1: And I think is the really the central question. Is 433 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: that something that companies have to decide for themselves in 434 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: their individual case or is it something where you need 435 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 1: we need to be thinking about a whole new paradigm, 436 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: and that's governments in fundamentally setting the rules for that. Well, 437 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 1: I think that government is becoming much more involved in 438 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: some respects. UM. It's a little bit early days, but 439 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 1: you know, we're hearing from the SEC and other regulatory 440 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: bodies that they're interested in worker audits. UM. If you 441 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: serve on boards and you've served on the audit committee 442 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: of boards, you know that we already do a lot 443 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: of capital audits were required to UM to present financials 444 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: every quarter. So there's a lot of emphasis on the 445 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 1: capital allocation and capital really as a resource. UM. But 446 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: we haven't really been guided by regulation and government in 447 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: terms of workers. UM. You know, how do we define 448 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: worker productivity? What are the sort of things that we 449 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 1: should be thinking about in terms of worker engagement and 450 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: and enjoyment of being at at the in the workplace, 451 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 1: and so those aspects are definitely things that regulators are 452 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 1: thinking about. The SEC has been talking a lot about this, 453 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: and I think that that's a place where government could lead. 454 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: But I will say, even if they don't, UM, the 455 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: reality is that corporations are responding to the general site guys, 456 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: the mood music of the way we are living now, 457 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 1: and and that is also pointing us in the direction 458 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: of being much more thoughtful about workers and more generally stakeholders. 459 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: And when we talk thinking about issues around work life 460 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: balance and the mental health of employees coming out of this, 461 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: what are the what are the watchwords for for companies 462 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: if they're trying to do the right thing. A lot 463 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: of companies are saying they don't really want people to 464 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: be now staying at home. UM, but there's clearly a 465 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: demand from a lot of workers. How do you know 466 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: what brought that line? Just definitely, I think the word 467 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: that were words that come to my mind are trade offs. UM. 468 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: I think one of the problems that I see for 469 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: the boardroom for pretty much any issue that we're dealing with, 470 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: whether it's climate change, pay equity, gender and racial diversity, 471 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: aspects of worker advocacy, data privacy. I mean, you take 472 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 1: your pick of these big issues that we're grappling with. UM, 473 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: They're all have trade offs. And I love something that present. 474 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: Obama said, I'm paraphrasing here, but by the time something 475 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: hits his his inbox, it meant it was very difficult, 476 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: because if it were easy, somebody else would solve it. 477 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: And that's very true for boardrooms as well, and of 478 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: course issues around workers as it falls squarely um in 479 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: that in that pile, because we don't know what the 480 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: answer is. On the one hand, we are very sensitive 481 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: and heightened sensitivity around work life balance for sure, but 482 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,479 Speaker 1: at the same time, there are targets and things that 483 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: need to get done um and very often that requires 484 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: much more collaboration, and so having people work from home 485 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: is not something that would would be ideal, not just 486 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: for the company's goals, but also for the individual's goals. 487 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: There are some jobs and some tasks that require people 488 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 1: to be in the office and their productivity increases um uh, 489 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: you know, in multiple forms. By being in those spaces, 490 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: we sort of broaden the lens a bit that we 491 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: have that we've a lot of the inequalities that were 492 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: evident before, but maybe perhaps more also site somewhat hidden 493 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: behind the surface have both been unburied by by covid 494 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: um and would be harder to ignore whether at a 495 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: company level or a government level, how does a how 496 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: can a company do the right thing on that make 497 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: sure that they're doing the right things under that banner 498 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: of e SG rather than just being on a bandwagon. 499 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: It's it's a wonderful question now. And we're getting pulled 500 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: in different directions, and I'll give you an example in 501 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: a moment, But the fundamental point is that we need 502 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: our hands on deck to solve these problems that you know, 503 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: you hear about defunding energy companies. You hear about people 504 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:03,239 Speaker 1: worker advocacy, needing leaving employees pitted against their employers, and 505 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: yet you know, this is to me, it seems very shortsighted, 506 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: very quick example of this. There one point five billion 507 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: people who don't have access to energy in the planet today, 508 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: um in a cost effective, sustainable way UM. And And 509 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: you know, and at the same time we're talking about 510 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: defunding the energy companies who really are not only investing 511 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: in a whole area of new green and clean alternatives, 512 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: but also UM, we want more diversity in in institutions 513 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: and organizations. Well, how will you get the diversity if 514 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: you don't have this one point five billion people being 515 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: educated and so there are many aspects of this to 516 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: me are not sophisticated enough in terms of the discourse. 517 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: I was spiraling slightly listening to you and some of 518 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: your answers, because it strikes me, as someone who started 519 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: off writing about the challenges of development assistance and development AID, 520 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: one finds again and again that the problems that you faced, 521 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: they're actually come repeated in advanced economies, right, Stephanie, because 522 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: ultimately it boils down to good intentions that generates bad outcomes. 523 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, is a very regular theme in our lives, 524 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: and we end up with policies that actually not only 525 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: are not solving the problem, but they're actually making things worse. 526 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: And I'm really trying to get ahead of that because 527 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:22,959 Speaker 1: we can do better, you know. It's that we can 528 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: put a man on the moon. Why can't we solve 529 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: these problems in a way that's equitable and sustainable. And 530 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: it's deeply, you know, very much at the core as 531 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: you just pointed out, of how I see the world. 532 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: Dr Samoyo, thank you, thank you so much, Thank you, Stephanie. 533 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: Glad to see you. So that's it for now. We'll 534 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: be back with more next week in the meantime, I 535 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: know you hear this a lot, but if you couldn 536 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: take the time to rate the show, it would really 537 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: help us to spread the word. And for more news 538 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: and analysis during the week from Bloomberg Economics, just follow 539 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: at Economics on Twitter. This episode was produced by Magnus Hendrickson, 540 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 1: with special thanks to Javier Blast, Dr Dambisa Moyo, and 541 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: Kylie Lambert. Lucy Meekin is the executive producer of Stephonomics 542 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: and the head of Bloombow podcast is Francesco Levi.