WEBVTT - Can science predict what you will do? 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:12.039 Hey, jorgey, do you think science is good at predicting 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:15.960 the future. It doesn't do very well with predicting the weather, 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:19.400 does it well? Here in California just says sunny every day? Yeah? 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:21.639 I guess some states are easier to predict the better. 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:23.880 All right, but let me try my hand at it. 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:27.920 I have a prediction of the future. You're a psychic, 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:33.199 note and a physicist. Well, I predict that you cannot 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:39.640 go a whole episode without talking about bananas. What that's bananas? Boom, 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:42.440 there you go. I'm totally psychic. You know the difference 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:47.519 between a psychic and a physicist their salary where you 0:00:47.560 --> 0:01:08.040 put the h That's the only difference. Hey, I'm RhE 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:11.959 and my cartoonist and the creator of PhD comments. Hi. 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:15.800 I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, not a particle psychic, 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:18.080 and I'm a co author of our book We Have 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:22.039 No Idea, A Guide to the Unknown Universe. Welcome to 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:25.679 our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:28.280 of I Heart Radio, in which we talk about all 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:31.520 the amazing, the fascinating, the hot, the nasty, the wet, 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:33.920 the bright, the dirty, the soft, the quiet, the loud, 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:36.560 the hot, the cold, all the stuff in the universe 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.679 that's fascinating and beautiful and amazing, and explain it to 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:42.240 you in a way that we hope you actually understand 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:45.759 and hopefully even enjoy. Yeah, and sometimes on the podcast, 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:50.600 we like to talk about predicting the future. What's gonna happen, 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:53.000 what's gonna happen to the universe, what's going to happen 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:56.040 to the Earth, what's gonna happen to the solar system, 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:59.480 what's going to happen to this podcast? Where is this 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:02.920 podcast going anyway? Yeah, we like to talk about what 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:06.280 science does and doesn't know about the future, what we 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:08.679 can predict about what's going to happen, and where we 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:11.839 are totally clueless. Yeah, well, as I was we were 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:14.919 saying earlier, there's a there's a fine line between being 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:18.280 a psychic and being a physicist. I would say it's 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:21.320 a bright but fine line. It's right, Okay, it's an 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:26.840 impenetrable barrier, quantum barrier. It's difficult to tunnel between being 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:29.640 a physicist and being a psychic, but in some sense 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.560 we do have the same job. Physics also wants to 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:34.720 predict the future. Yeah, that's kind of. I mean, that's 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:38.160 kind of why, in a way, physics was invented, right, 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:42.160 Like we want to know where this catapult payload is 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:45.400 going to land. We want to know how far my 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:47.079 car is going to go? Were you there when physics 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:49.839 was invented? I didn't get invited to that meeting? Oh yeah, 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:52.880 and you didn't? Um? I think Einstein was there and 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:56.000 Newton was there, and damn I knew I should have 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:58.760 checked my email that day. He missed the calendar invite. 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:00.880 That's right, And all those exams, as you mentioned, are 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:04.680 totally valuable and our examples of why science has an 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:07.520 impact on everyday life. You know, is my catapult going 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:09.840 to get over those castle walls and this kind of stuff? 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:12.959 But also physics just wants to understand what's going to 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:15.320 happen to us, what's our fate? How can we plan 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:18.120 to live ahead? Um? And can we understand the mysteries 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:20.280 of everything around us so that we can know when 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:22.480 lightning is going to strike or when disease is going 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:24.960 to wipe out our cattle? Right? In a way, that's 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:27.560 kind of the the standard for physics, right. It's like 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:31.200 like we we we say we understand something in a 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:33.440 way we can sort of predict what's going to happen. 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:36.600 You want to verify that your theory of physics describes 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:39.240 the real universe out there and not just some idea 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:42.960 in your mind. You have to make a testable prediction. Einstein, 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:45.720 for example, predicted how light was going to be bent 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:48.720 during an eclipse, and people measured it and he was right. 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:51.600 And that's really when people started to believe his theory 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:55.320 of relativity. Because if your theory can't predict the future, 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:57.920 then what uses it, Right, That's what science does. It 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.280 predicts the outcome of future elements. Yeah, and you know, 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:04.000 I think people are comfortable with this idea that physics 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:07.160 is able to some degree predict the future. Like if 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:09.720 if you told somebody, hey, physics predict that the Earth 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:11.480 is going to be around for a very long time, 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:14.760 or that the universe will never end that those are comforting, 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:18.120 or if you eat that candy you will get bad. Yeah, 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:22.760 I think that's a that's more of a physical education. Um, 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:31.440 there's physics there. You're converting candy energy into squishy stomach energy. Yeah. 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.360 So we're comfortable I think with some physics predicting some 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:37.000 things about the future. But I think we're a little 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:41.960 bit uncomfortable about physics describing other things about the future, right. Yeah. 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:44.400 We like to use physics and science to explore the 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:48.080 universe around us and outside us. But then sometimes we 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:51.360 turn that science on ourselves and we seek to gain 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:54.640 insight into how we work. And then that makes you wonder. Yeah, 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:57.240 it makes you wonder if you are predictable in a 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:01.919 way you know, like could physics but actually one day, 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:04.960 you know, simulate the human mind, or simulate your mind 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:08.440 and predict what you're gonna think and do. It's a 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.520 fascinating question because so many things that humans have puzzled 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:14.599 over for so many years, how eclipse has happened, where 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:17.880 lightning strikes, all this stuff, how reproduction works. All of 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:20.400 these things have in the end been explained through science. 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:23.839 It turns out they are mechanistic. We can understand the 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:27.160 microscopically how it works and predict what's going to happen 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:29.880 in the future. And so then it's a natural question 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:32.840 to wonder how far you can extend that strategy. Can 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:35.599 you turn that around and extend it into your own 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:38.359 inner life? Right yeah, because you know, like if physics 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:41.880 can predict what, uh, you know a can of gas 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:44.800 particles is going to do. Why can't it predict what 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:47.120 a brain full of neurons is going to do? What's 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:49.000 the difference in the end between a can of gas 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:52.880 and a brain of neurons Really depends on the person probably, 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:57.320 but it depends on what that person eight recently. Yeah, 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:59.640 So it's a big question with I think some really 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:04.239 deep philosophical implications right about who we are and whether 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:07.080 or not we're predictable, or whether or not we have 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:10.760 this thing called free will. Yeah, that's right. Like many 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:13.640 of the topics we touch on in this podcast, there 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:17.040 are deep philosophical implications, and so I think today we 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:19.880 should walk carefully and focus on the science and then 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:23.039 think about what the philosophical implications are of what we 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:25.279 do and do not know. Yeah, and so today on 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:34.280 the podcast, we'll be tackling the question can't science predict 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:37.520 what you're going to do? And I predict that there 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:40.440 will be a lot of predictions in this episode, but 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:44.440 maybe not a lot of answers. Well that's sort of 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:48.000 our specialty, right, opening questions and not really answering that. 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:52.600 I think what you mean is getting people excited about 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:57.760 the questions, right, and that's right, sparking people's fundamental curiosity. 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:00.520 I think it's I think it's wonderful to talk about 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:03.400 things that we don't understand very well, because hopefully it's 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:05.320 a preview for what's going to happen in the future. 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:08.279 It's like a fantasy for future science. Maybe in five 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:11.760 years or in a thousand years, Signs will have figured 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:13.920 out the exact workings of the human brain. It can 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:16.400 tell you exactly what you're gonna do tomorrow. That would 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:19.560 be amazing. We totally change the way life operates, the 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:21.880 way what it's like to be a human being, right, Yeah, 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:23.520 I mean, we wrote a whole book about all the 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:26.040 things we don't know, Daniel, I'm sure we can pull 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:31.520 off a podcast also, I predict we will. So. Yeah. 0:07:31.680 --> 0:07:33.840 So this is an interesting question, and it's kind of 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:37.360 goes back to a long time ago, when you know, 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:41.480 once Signs started seeing that the universe was what they 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:45.520 called deterministic, meaning like like just the giant machine that 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:49.160 follows the laws of physics like a clock. Then I 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:51.560 think that's when people started to think, like, hey, maybe 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:56.800 maybe our humanity is also predictable like a clock. Yeah. 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:59.640 I think that's sort of shocking. I think when people 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:02.120 first had that idea, it might have been a terrifying 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:06.240 moment to imagine that this experience they're having might actually 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:11.400 just be explainable, that things could be determined from the past. Yeah. Well, 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:13.400 I think if you told my eleven year old self 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:17.200 that I was a robot, I'd be like cool. Nowadays, though, 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:20.680 you know, it's more of an uncomfortable statement. You're a 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:26.600 robot and we gave the remote control to your sister. Sorry. Yeah, no. 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:31.040 I think also it's fun to think even more deeply 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:34.160 into sort of the origins of human thought on this question. 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:37.080 Is the sort of the hubrist that the universe is 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:39.880 explainable at any level? You know, I think a thousand 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:41.920 years ago or five thousand years ago, people might have 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.280 been comfortable with the idea that the universe doesn't follow laws, 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.440 it just sort of is, and maybe there are these 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:50.400 omniscient sentient beings out there that are in control of 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:52.520 stuff and they can do whatever they like. So the 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:55.199 idea that the universe that we could write down rules, 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:58.320 we could discover rules that the universe follows and use 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:00.920 those to predict what's going to happen. That's an incredible 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:03.640 step forward in human intellectual history. But also it's not 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:08.160 something we can necessarily explain, like why would the universe 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:11.280 be deterministic? Why would the universe even follow laws? Is 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:15.120 it true even today, given our amazing success in science, 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:18.320 is it true that everything we can discover, Um, every 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:21.400 natural phenomena we discover will eventually be explained by science 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:24.199 or can be explained by science. Those are open questions 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:27.280 in philosophy. Yeah, and so I guess the question then is, 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.480 you know how far can we push science? Like if 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:33.240 science can predict the future to some degree, like you know, 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.040 I can predict that the airplane is not going to 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:38.200 fall from the sky, or it's going to predict that, Um, 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:39.760 you know, if I shoot this laser, this is what's 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.640 gonna happen. You know, how far can we push the 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:46.880 science and maybe even predict what your brain is going 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:49.319 to do? Fascinating questions. And I think you'll see from 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:52.080 some of these reactions that there's a wide variety of 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:56.120 opinions out there. So, as usual, I walked around campus 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.959 at you see Irvine, and I asked folks this question, 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:01.880 can science predict what you're going to think or do? 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:04.400 So think about it for a second. Do you think 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:08.760 you're just a big, squeehy biological robot machine or do 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:11.600 you think you have some sort of free will or 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:14.640 some sort of free spirit that nobody can predict what 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:16.920 you're going to think or do. Here's what people have 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:22.800 to say, not precisely to an extent. There's just so 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:28.720 many variables. No, no, not um, because we're humans are unpredictable. 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:32.680 I'm a psychology aager. So yeah, I don't believe that 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:39.000 we can. We can try, but it's not likely. Yeah, 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:41.199 I think so, you think so? Yeah, So then is 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:45.800 their free will in that case? Yeah, because it's still 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.120 the person that'slf, that's stims, just the other person that's 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:52.640 from the predicting correctly, So it's not their choice theoretically. 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:55.559 I mean, if we did have these capabilities, then that 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:59.400 might be possible. We just need to advance. Science is 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:03.040 far enough to able to figure that out. No, I don't. 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:05.200 I don't think so. So do you think the brain 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:07.680 is like not described by physical laws or does something 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:11.840 else happening there? No? I think, UM, strong determinism I 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:17.480 think is a very uh optimistic Yeah you do. Why 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:20.280 is that? Um? I don't know. I just feel like 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:23.400 it could, and if it does, does that mean that 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:26.400 you have free will or don't have free will? Or um? 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:28.680 If you can predict what people are going to think, 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:33.000 then probably not. Yes, yes, Why is that? I don't know. 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:36.079 I think I saw like a video where they're like 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:39.080 trying to map out like a brain or something, and 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.320 they were talking about like how to recreate it, and 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:46.079 that everything we think is just like a series of decisions, 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:48.840 and that you can put it in like binary or something, 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:52.200 so like zero for yes or one for no, and 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:55.800 it all leads to what choices you make. I think 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:58.080 that if there were a method for it, it wouldn't 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:00.240 be super exact, just because there were so many Does 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:01.880 that play into it. I don't think it's possible to 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:07.440 be able to predict every single one of them. Yes, yes, um, 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.720 oh no, no No. So you don't think the brain 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:13.480 follows physical laws. I think it does, but I think 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:19.520 they're chaotic, chaotic or random. I've given enough information. Are 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:25.160 you just a complicated mechanical watch? Uh? No. I think 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:28.880 I may or may not subscribe to the view that 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:33.599 there's some quantum mechanics at play. So maybe you're not 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:35.920 seating quantum mechanics because it's an opening for free will. 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:40.360 M M. Now, I don't know if that's true. I'm 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:45.160 I'm a pessimist. I feel like eventually, yes, but I 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:47.839 feel like we're not there yet. So if so, does 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:50.000 that mean that your brain is deterministic but you're just 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:52.640 just a product of what's happened in the past and 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:56.120 the stimulus it's getting. Obviously there's like some varying factories, 0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:58.480 but I think there are some things that are like patternistic, 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:00.720 like if you're gonna wake up in like drink a coffee, 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:02.600 or if you're gonna wake up and like go for 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:05.880 a walk, Like those things are patterns that like are habitual. 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:08.880 But then there's things that aren't. I feel like you 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:12.000 could predict it to an extent, but not like every 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:15.200 single action by action, like there might be like faults 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:19.200 in the prediction. But yeah, it's hard to do because 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:23.000 it's impossible. Just I feel like that's probably impossible because 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:28.120 your things can change, you know, very complicated robot. Does 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:34.040 that mean that there's no free will? I currently thinking 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:38.120 that there's no free will. Yes, Yeah, So maybe that's 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:41.240 where it becomes a bit complicated to answer this question, 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:44.199 because I do believe that the laws of physics govern 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:49.520 everything in the universe, so that would include us, all right. 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.040 I feel like these answers were all very yes and no. 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.120 You know, some people were like no, some people are 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:57.920 like yes. Nobody said like maybe, I don't know, you know, 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:02.559 like people had very opinions. They certainly did, and I 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:04.319 should have taken some data to see if these were 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:07.240 like all science majors who had confidence as science would 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.839 eventually figure it out or not. But the last two 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:12.599 were maybe the most fun because they turned out to 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.120 be a husband and wife and he said, yes, he's 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:18.280 a complicated robot and she says, no, we're not robots. 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:21.080 And then after I left, I heard them arguing about 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:26.640 it in a good natured way. In a good natured way, Oh, 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:28.760 I see one of them. One of them thought that 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.280 the other one was predictable and the other one did 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:34.080 not like to be predicted. Yeah. I thought that was fascinating. 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:37.920 Maybe sparked some dinner table conversation. But you're right, and 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:40.880 and in contrast to some other questions, this is definitely 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:44.520 a topic everybody felt comfortable giving an answer to. Sometimes 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:46.280 I'll ask people a question and they'll be like, what, 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:48.080 I never heard of that before or I don't know, 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:51.720 but here everybody had something thoughtful to say. Yeah, because 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.640 I think it touches something very deep within us, you know, 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:57.800 just this idea that there's something more to me than 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:02.320 just like a big biological clock or a big biological 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.720 you know, clump of cells doing what there would do 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:08.160 without thinking about it. Yeah, I think most people feel 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:10.960 like they are steering, even if your body is a 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:14.240 big biological robot. They feel like they're in charge. They're 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:16.920 making choices. They decide to eat that cookie, or they 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.560 decide to step on that crack. They feel like they're 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:22.120 making these decisions and so so and so. It doesn't 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:25.880 sort of jibe with that experience to imagine that those 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:28.920 decisions are just the product of the situation you're in 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:32.440 an instant before. It's hard to imagine how you could 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:36.280 have such a visceral experience of free will if you 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:38.480 don't actually have it. All right, so let's stick into 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.360 the question. Here is the question here, which is a 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.520 cook science predict what you're going to do. And so 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:47.360 let's maybe paint the picture to our listeners about what 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:50.360 that might look like. You know, like, how could science, 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:53.920 physics or you know, a combination of biology and computer 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:59.160 science possibly predict what a human brain might think or do. YEA. So, 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:03.160 the typical raggy for understanding something is to think about 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:05.880 it in terms of its microscopic bits, like what's going 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:09.040 on inside of it? Can we understand those bits and 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:12.240 from that build up some sort of understanding, you know, 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:15.400 like if you wanted to say understand how a watch worked, 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:17.080 you would take it apart and you would say, oh, 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:19.640 there's a gear here, and there's a lever there, and 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.680 this lever touches that gear which turns this thing, and 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:24.760 that's how this thing works. And if you can make 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:27.000 a model of all the things inside of it, and 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:30.040 each one of those things is following the laws of physics, 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:33.680 then together the whole thing has to follow the laws 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:36.760 of physics. Right. If something is made up of pieces 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:40.520 which are predictable, then putting them together it should also 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.600 be predictable, right you mean like a so science would 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:47.080 might be maybe break down your brain and maybe build 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:51.160 like a computer model of each one of your neurons 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:55.840 and that somehow, you know, acts exactly the same way 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:58.040 that is put together the exact same way that your 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:01.040 brain is. And so maybe like if you capture your 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:06.439 brain in a computer, could that maybe predict what you're thinking, 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:08.560 what you'll think and do. Yeah, And it doesn't have 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:10.600 to be a computer model in the end, it just 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:13.280 has to follow the mathematical laws of physics, and you 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:15.760 can express those as a computer model. You could also 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:19.120 build a mechanical model. You can imagine building a basically 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:22.159 a physical copy of your brain. So that's I think, uh, 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:25.520 that detail is not critical the concept. The critical concept 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:28.800 is understanding what's going on inside the little bits and 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:32.920 then build putting those together to basically replicate your brain. 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:35.480 But replicating is not enough. Like if I had a 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:39.000 perfect copy of your brain, Like if I created another Hooge, 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:41.880 that wouldn't necessarily help me understand what you're going to do. 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.239 In order to in order to predict what you're gonna do, 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:47.840 I need to be able to run experiments. And so 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:50.440 you're having a simulation of your brain. I could like say, well, 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:52.720 what would Hooge do if I offered him a cookie? 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:54.640 Would he say yes or no? So if I had 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:59.600 a perfect simulation of your brain, I could run those experiments, right, Yeah, 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:02.639 I think it goes to the idea that you know 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:06.720 we're really complicated as human beings, as thinking beings. But 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:09.040 you know, if you break down our brain, it's made 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:12.480 out of you know, lobes and chunks of brain tissue, 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.240 and those are made out of neurons connected to each other, 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.200 and neurons are made out of molecules, and so all 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:21.680 of these things down to the molecule level kind of 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.400 follow the laws of physics. You know. It is sort 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:27.879 of at the end, just a big and very very complicated, 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:31.320 but still a big clock. Yes. And that's a really 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:35.080 deeply powerful implication of this discovery that we made a 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:37.560 long long time ago, that everything is made out of 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:40.080 the same bits. Right, I'm made out of atoms. You're 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:42.000 made out of atoms. This chair I'm sitting on is 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:44.320 made out of atoms. Things are not made out of 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:46.600 their own kind of stuff, which means that they in 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:49.240 the end, they all follow the same rules. The rules 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:51.679 that hold a chair together are the same rules that 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:54.520 hold your cat together, and your hamster together and you together. 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:56.520 So if we can figure out what the rules are 0:18:56.640 --> 0:19:00.480 that describe how molecules and atoms work, that improve instaple. 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:03.200 And that's an important distinction and principle we should be 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:07.120 able to extrapolate it up and understand how you work. Right, 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:09.080 It's kind of like saying, like, you know, we are 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:12.880 made out of inanimate bids. You know, I think we're 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:15.520 made out of things that are just plain things which 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:18.359 you can maybe predict what they're going to do. And 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:22.040 so does that mean that we are also inanimate in 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:25.880 a way unpredictable. Imagine you came across a robot, for example, 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:27.919 and it was doing weird stuff and you want to 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:30.000 understand it. How would you understand it? What? You would 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:31.520 take it apart and say, oh, it's made out of 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:33.760 these pieces, and can I understand each of those pieces? 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:35.959 And if so, you could put that together to an 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:38.919 understanding of the whole robot. And so the idea is 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:40.800 apply that to a person. Yeah, and you could do 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:43.159 things like, you know, if I, you know, if I 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:45.960 poked this little bit here in this engine, you know, 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:48.560 I predicted the and the car is gonna move forward 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:52.480 or backwards exactly. And all of this happening, of course, 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:56.400 assumes a few things. It assumes that you can get 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:59.040 a picture of what's what's happening inside your brain. The 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:01.600 idea you presented for choirs that we know each neuron, 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:04.920 we know the situation that neuron is in, right, It's 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:06.800 like for the watch, it's like that we know where 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:10.800 the levers are and where the gears are, and that 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:13.720 we can extrapolate up from those levers and gears to 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:16.800 the operation of a whole brain. That's not trivial. And 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:20.240 then you know, there's questions about like is it actually deterministic, 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:22.800 or is there like some funky quantum magic going on, 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:26.240 or is there something in there that like science can describe. 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:28.240 So it's not a trivial thing to say just just 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:30.400 because your brain is made of atoms that we could 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:33.600 therefore predict what you're gonna do. Right, Yeah, I think 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:37.680 that's the at the core question here, And so let's 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:40.439 get into it and um, just to say, some time, Daniel, 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:42.919 I will always take the cookie. You don't need a 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:46.680 fancy computer simulation to predict that I will take the cookie. 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:49.360 All right, I'm gonna cross that off my deep questions 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:51.639 of the universal list. Yeah, so let's get into it 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:54.359 a little bit more deeply and figure out how you 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:57.000 might even do this, or whether we can or if 0:20:57.000 --> 0:20:59.840 there is some kind of quantum magic that might give 0:20:59.840 --> 0:21:02.080 a little bit of a loophole to get free will. 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:17.080 But first let's take a quick break. All right, we're 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:19.640 talking about whether science can predict what you're gonna think 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:22.440 and do, and we talked about, um, yeah, that maybe 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:24.240 your your brain is made out of little bits and 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:27.080 pieces which which are sort of little biological machines. And 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:29.479 so does that mean that your whole brain is just 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:33.640 a machine or like a robot, which anyone could predict 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:35.680 what they're going to do? So let's get into it. 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:38.439 What are some of the things Daniel, that physicists know 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:43.280 or think that might make that picture really difficult or 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:46.600 maybe impossible to predict what you're going to do. The 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:49.800 first thing that comes to my mind is just knowing 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:52.879 the current status of your brain. Like if I wanted 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:56.720 to model the flight of a of a baseball, I 0:21:56.920 --> 0:21:59.800 wanted to know exactly where baseball went. I would need 0:21:59.840 --> 0:22:03.440 to know it's current position and it's current direction. If 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:05.240 you wanted to know if you wanted to predict where 0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:07.920 what's gonna land, you would sort of need to know 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:10.280 you know where it is and where it's going at 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:13.119 any given time. Yeah, and and at any moment, just 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:15.560 one moment in time would determine where it's going to be. 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:17.960 So if I knew where that baseball was now and 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:20.080 where it was in which direction it was going in, 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:23.200 I could just apply the law of physics and propagate 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:25.240 that information forward. I would say, Oh, it's going to 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:28.159 move in a certain path under the under gravity, and 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:29.800 I can tell you exactly where it's going to land. 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:32.440 That's physics predicting the future, and that works for one 0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:36.280 little tiny particle or baseball or whatever. But in order 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:38.040 to do that for your brain, I would need to 0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:41.479 know the current situation of your brain, Like, what is 0:22:42.040 --> 0:22:44.520 the situation of every neuron? Is it about to fire 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:47.160 a little pulse? Is it not about to fire pulse? 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:50.560 How strong is this connection between it and the next neuron? 0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:53.480 And you know there's billions and billions of neurons in 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:56.000 your brains. We're talking about an enormous amount of information 0:22:56.080 --> 0:22:57.720 you'd need to know. I think what you mean is 0:22:57.760 --> 0:23:00.639 that even if I had a giant computers similiation of 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:02.600 your brain, I would need to give each of the 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:05.720 neurons kind of a starting value, right, or like I 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:09.280 would need to know where each neuron was in order 0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:12.439 to predict what the whole brain was going to do. Precisely. 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:14.840 If I had a computer program that could simulate an 0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:17.320 arbitrary brain, I would somehow need to configure it to 0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:20.040 your brain. And that would mean knowing where all the 0:23:20.080 --> 0:23:22.200 neurons were and how they were connected to each other 0:23:22.800 --> 0:23:24.800 and all that kind of stuff. Just like if you 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:26.679 want to calculate where the baseball is going to go, 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:28.800 you need to know the initial conditions. You need to 0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:31.320 know where it is now and which direction is going in. 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:34.359 So like, even if I had that computer program, and 0:23:34.359 --> 0:23:37.240 even if it was possible um to use that computer 0:23:37.240 --> 0:23:39.600 program to predict the future, how do I get that 0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:42.639 information from your brain? Do I have to like scan 0:23:42.760 --> 0:23:45.080 your brain somehow? You have to take your head off 0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:48.560 and slice it into hyperfine little bits? Like how do 0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:52.239 you even physically do that? Right? Because each neuron might 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:54.480 be in a different state, you know, like one win 0:23:54.600 --> 0:23:57.240 might be more excited than others, or you might be 0:23:57.840 --> 0:23:59.240 you know, you might be in a bad mood. And 0:23:59.280 --> 0:24:02.040 so there's a general I don't know dopamine levels that 0:24:02.080 --> 0:24:05.439 are you know, suppressing some of your neurons right now. 0:24:05.480 --> 0:24:07.320 You need to know that in order to predict what 0:24:07.359 --> 0:24:08.920 you're going to think and do. Yeah, And you need 0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:10.879 to know it all at the same moment. Right, I 0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:12.600 don't want to know what the left half of your 0:24:12.600 --> 0:24:14.280 brain is doing right now and the right half of 0:24:14.280 --> 0:24:16.359 your brain is doing two seconds ago. I need a 0:24:16.400 --> 0:24:19.919 complete picture of your brain at one moment, so that 0:24:20.000 --> 0:24:23.600 I know how what direction everything is moving in. I'm 0:24:23.640 --> 0:24:25.119 just thinking of your brain is like a lot of 0:24:25.160 --> 0:24:28.000 tiny little baseballs, and so I need to know where 0:24:28.040 --> 0:24:30.280 all those baseballs are at the same time. So even 0:24:30.520 --> 0:24:33.399 slicing your brain, you know, like a ham sandwich or whatever, 0:24:33.640 --> 0:24:36.960 wouldn't work. I need to somehow instantly scan everything in 0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:43.840 your brain. And that just seems almost impossible, right, It 0:24:43.920 --> 0:24:45.920 seems almost impossible. I mean I read a lot of 0:24:45.960 --> 0:24:49.160 science fiction, and there's some good stuff where the people 0:24:49.160 --> 0:24:52.160 are uploading brains into the cloud, and sometimes they talk 0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:54.840 about how scanning the brain is a destructive process, but 0:24:54.880 --> 0:24:56.959 they never talked about how fast it has to be. Like, 0:24:57.000 --> 0:24:58.680 if you want to scan the brain, it's got to 0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:01.359 be a snapshot. You gotta know where everything is in 0:25:01.440 --> 0:25:05.480 an instant or it's all averaged like over the last 0:25:05.600 --> 0:25:08.119 five minutes or ten minutes or twenty minutes, or however 0:25:08.119 --> 0:25:10.639 long it takes to scan the brain. And that's going 0:25:10.680 --> 0:25:13.280 to be a disaster. So this is a technological issue, 0:25:13.320 --> 0:25:16.080 not philosophical. But I don't know if that's even possible. 0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:18.399 Oh I see, Okay, so that's kind of the first 0:25:18.880 --> 0:25:22.480 um barrier that might prevent you from predicting somebody's brain 0:25:22.800 --> 0:25:25.960 is getting a snapshot of it. But uh, and it 0:25:26.080 --> 0:25:28.720 sounds impossible, but I think technically you can't rule it 0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:33.159 out right, Like, it's not technically or theoretically impossible that 0:25:33.600 --> 0:25:36.040 maybe one day people will come up with a brain 0:25:36.080 --> 0:25:38.639 scan that can somehow capture all of your brain in 0:25:38.680 --> 0:25:41.280 one instant. That's right, unless you need to know it's 0:25:41.320 --> 0:25:43.840 sort of at the level of quantum mechanical objects, like 0:25:43.920 --> 0:25:46.679 you need to know the exact location of every electron. 0:25:47.040 --> 0:25:50.520 Then it's theoretically impossible because you can't measure the perfect 0:25:50.560 --> 0:25:53.440 quantum state of the entire brain all at the same time. 0:25:54.200 --> 0:25:56.520 I think that's theoretically impossible. But as long as it's 0:25:56.520 --> 0:25:59.600 you know, not necessarily sensitive to quantum effects in theory, 0:25:59.680 --> 0:26:03.680 it's possible, but technologically way out of our grasp today today. Yeah, 0:26:03.720 --> 0:26:06.280 let's assume that that's possible and then think about what 0:26:06.320 --> 0:26:09.560 the other problems would be. Yeah, yeah, because that's that's 0:26:09.600 --> 0:26:12.160 not that's not the only problem is scanning your brain. 0:26:13.040 --> 0:26:16.560 There are first we have to achieve this almost impossible 0:26:16.560 --> 0:26:20.320 sounding technological feat. Then we got the real problems. Yeah, well, 0:26:20.359 --> 0:26:22.200 you know that's what they said about the iPhone. And 0:26:22.560 --> 0:26:24.840 look where we are now? Is that? Is that what 0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:27.679 they said about the iPhone? Was it that? This was 0:26:27.720 --> 0:26:29.520 that at the physics meeting you had with Einstein and 0:26:29.560 --> 0:26:31.679 you know all those guys, Well it was science pitching 0:26:31.800 --> 0:26:34.840 like fifty years ago, right, like this device that fit 0:26:34.880 --> 0:26:37.600 in your pocket and you can talk video with people 0:26:37.840 --> 0:26:40.800 and play addictive video games on for hours. I mean 0:26:40.800 --> 0:26:43.399 that was like a Star trek. You know that's true. 0:26:43.800 --> 0:26:46.960 And it'd be folly to say this kind of technology 0:26:46.960 --> 0:26:49.600 will never be developed or would take years or centuries 0:26:49.680 --> 0:26:52.840 or whatever, because those kind of predictions are always people 0:26:52.880 --> 0:26:55.720 always look silly five years later after making those predictions. 0:26:56.119 --> 0:26:58.760 So we should avoid that. And maybe technology will progress 0:26:58.880 --> 0:27:01.200 rapidly and they'll invent the brain scan next week, and 0:27:01.240 --> 0:27:03.520 they'll have a brain scan app that you can put 0:27:03.600 --> 0:27:06.639 on your phone. Maybe, But then there are other things 0:27:06.640 --> 0:27:09.320 that will would make this really difficult or that kind 0:27:09.320 --> 0:27:13.520 of make your brain almost pretty much unpredictable. Right, Yeah, 0:27:13.520 --> 0:27:16.520 there are a lot of practical issues and actually accomplishing 0:27:16.680 --> 0:27:18.879 predicting what your brain is going to do. Say, we 0:27:18.920 --> 0:27:21.200 had a snapshot at your brain, we knew the current 0:27:21.240 --> 0:27:23.880 status of every neuron. We could load that into the computer, 0:27:24.320 --> 0:27:26.480 and we wanted to run that forward. We wanted to say, 0:27:26.640 --> 0:27:29.320 all right, well, what's this person going to do in 0:27:29.359 --> 0:27:33.760 five minutes. That's not always easy. Some systems, even if 0:27:33.760 --> 0:27:36.720 they're made of atoms which follow physical laws, and even 0:27:36.760 --> 0:27:39.760 if you knew where all those atoms were, are hard 0:27:39.840 --> 0:27:44.280 to describe. Yeah, because there um you're telling me earlier. 0:27:44.560 --> 0:27:48.840 They're not easy systems to kind of simulate, or they're 0:27:48.840 --> 0:27:53.280 not easy systems to um to kind of predict what 0:27:53.320 --> 0:27:55.159 they're going to do. Yeah, and this is again a 0:27:55.200 --> 0:27:58.760 technological problem, but it's a real problem, Like why can't 0:27:58.760 --> 0:28:02.480 we predict the weather? In theory, weather follows rules that 0:28:02.520 --> 0:28:06.480 we understand water droplets and air resistance and wind and 0:28:06.520 --> 0:28:09.560 all that stuff. That's not complicated physics. They're just atoms. Yeah, 0:28:09.600 --> 0:28:11.800 they're just atoms, And we don't even need to worry 0:28:11.800 --> 0:28:13.840 about the atoms. We can think about the water droplets 0:28:13.840 --> 0:28:16.720 and the temperature and stuff. So why is it so 0:28:16.760 --> 0:28:18.960 hard to predict when it's going to rain or when 0:28:18.960 --> 0:28:20.840 a hurricane is going to come. If it's following the 0:28:20.880 --> 0:28:23.679 laws of physics, and we have amazing satellites that are 0:28:23.720 --> 0:28:26.840 like gathering all this data about what the temperature is everywhere, 0:28:26.960 --> 0:28:30.359 it's a very similar problem. The reason that weather it 0:28:30.400 --> 0:28:32.680 is hard to predict is not because it doesn't follow 0:28:32.680 --> 0:28:35.920 the laws of physics. It's because it's very, very sensitive 0:28:36.160 --> 0:28:40.120 to the exact tiny details of the situation. A small 0:28:40.280 --> 0:28:43.320 change in temperature over here leads to a big change 0:28:43.360 --> 0:28:46.320 over there. That's something we call chaos. Right, It's this 0:28:46.360 --> 0:28:48.600 idea that the kind of goes back to that whole 0:28:48.600 --> 0:28:52.600 butterfly idea, right, Like like they say that if a 0:28:52.680 --> 0:28:55.360 butterfly flaps its wing in one part of the world, 0:28:55.480 --> 0:28:58.720 it can actually affect the weather in another part of 0:28:58.760 --> 0:29:02.080 the world, just because it's so sensitive to even small 0:29:02.160 --> 0:29:05.240 things like a butterfly flapping its wing. That's right, and 0:29:05.320 --> 0:29:08.520 not every system is chaotic. Some things are not right 0:29:08.560 --> 0:29:10.760 some things. For example, when you throw a ball, you 0:29:10.800 --> 0:29:13.640 throw a ball, if you change the angle you're throwing 0:29:13.640 --> 0:29:16.520 it at by a tiny bit, then the outcome is 0:29:16.640 --> 0:29:18.960 changed by a tiny bit. Right, you throw it a 0:29:19.000 --> 0:29:21.640 tiny bit harder, it lands, it goes a tin a 0:29:21.640 --> 0:29:24.480 bit further. But other things, if you change how you 0:29:24.480 --> 0:29:25.959 do them by a tiny bit, you get a very 0:29:25.960 --> 0:29:29.040 different outcome, Like rolling a die. If you roll a 0:29:29.080 --> 0:29:31.480 dice slightly differently, you spin your hand to tying a 0:29:31.480 --> 0:29:33.760 bit differently, you get a four instead of a two, 0:29:33.880 --> 0:29:36.040 or a five instead of a one. So the outcome 0:29:36.080 --> 0:29:39.560 depends very very sensitive and exactly how you did it. 0:29:39.560 --> 0:29:43.200 It's not random, it's following the laws of physics. In theory, 0:29:43.360 --> 0:29:47.080 it's predictable, but in practice it's very difficult because the 0:29:47.120 --> 0:29:51.080 outcome depends very sensitively on how you flap those butterfly wings, yeah, 0:29:51.200 --> 0:29:53.360 or how you throw the die. Like to predict a 0:29:53.440 --> 0:29:56.120 die roll, you would need to really kind of like 0:29:56.160 --> 0:30:00.560 pay attention to the exact angle that each I is 0:30:01.320 --> 0:30:03.800 at when it leaves your hand, and you have to 0:30:03.840 --> 0:30:07.480 predict also or simulate how like when the corners hit 0:30:07.560 --> 0:30:09.720 the ground, how that's going to affect the spin of 0:30:09.800 --> 0:30:12.720 the die. And so it's really it's just a much 0:30:12.760 --> 0:30:16.800 more complicated system to simulate and predict than like just 0:30:16.840 --> 0:30:19.120 throwing a baseball. So then the question is, is your 0:30:19.120 --> 0:30:22.040 brain like a big bag of dice with very each 0:30:22.040 --> 0:30:24.520 one very difficult to predict and bouncing off the other one. 0:30:24.800 --> 0:30:27.920 It's a very complex thing, or is it made out 0:30:27.920 --> 0:30:30.600 of things which are easy to predict? And if you 0:30:30.680 --> 0:30:34.360 knew pretty much the current situation that you could predict 0:30:34.360 --> 0:30:36.000 how it's going to come about? You know, is your 0:30:36.000 --> 0:30:38.960 brain a hurricane or is it just a baseball right? 0:30:39.440 --> 0:30:41.480 Or you know, if I have butterflies in my stomach 0:30:41.520 --> 0:30:43.520 and those they flap, what's how is it going to 0:30:44.400 --> 0:30:47.320 affect my decision to eat a cookie or not exactly? 0:30:47.360 --> 0:30:49.720 So the point is that even if you knew exactly 0:30:49.760 --> 0:30:52.320 the current situation of the brain, could you have a 0:30:52.400 --> 0:30:55.120 powerful enough computer to predict what it's going to happen 0:30:55.120 --> 0:30:57.680 going forward? And in the end, that's really the limitation. 0:30:58.080 --> 0:31:01.200 For example, for hurricanes, if we the location of every 0:31:01.280 --> 0:31:04.200 drop of water on Earth and its current position and velocity, 0:31:04.400 --> 0:31:07.320 and we had a super duper powerful computer, then yeah, 0:31:07.360 --> 0:31:11.400 we could probably predict the weather very accurately. But we 0:31:11.480 --> 0:31:14.560 don't have those computers right well, were I feel like 0:31:14.560 --> 0:31:16.720 we're getting better though, you know, like sometimes I'm really 0:31:16.760 --> 0:31:19.400 impressed by how far ahead we can predict the weather 0:31:19.480 --> 0:31:22.360 and how somewhat accurately, we can. This is just a 0:31:22.440 --> 0:31:26.840 hurdle of technology. Something of the fastest computers in the world, 0:31:26.840 --> 0:31:30.160 like the supercomputers, are all devoted to this problem predicting 0:31:30.200 --> 0:31:32.840 the future of the weather, understanding the atmosphere and all 0:31:32.920 --> 0:31:35.880 of its chaos, and so it's really just like throwing 0:31:35.880 --> 0:31:39.080 more computational power at the problem. Well, and that's because 0:31:39.200 --> 0:31:42.920 weather is a chaotic system, right, Definitely, weather is very chaotic. 0:31:42.960 --> 0:31:45.480 It's very difficult to predict the outcome, even if you 0:31:45.560 --> 0:31:47.960 know the current conditions. But do we know if the 0:31:48.040 --> 0:31:52.200 brain is chaotic or humans or chaotic? Humans seem chaoic 0:31:52.240 --> 0:31:53.760 to me. I mean some of them I've known for 0:31:53.800 --> 0:31:56.280 decades and I still don't understand why. Then good decisions 0:31:56.320 --> 0:32:01.240 they do, and not just their children, not just of children. No, 0:32:01.440 --> 0:32:03.280 we don't know for sure, but it seems to me 0:32:03.600 --> 0:32:07.400 very likely. I mean, it's a hyper connected, very sensitive 0:32:07.600 --> 0:32:10.560 set of neurons. It seems to me very unlikely that 0:32:10.640 --> 0:32:12.440 it wouldn't be a chaotic, But we don't know. It 0:32:12.560 --> 0:32:16.080 might be that there are sort of emergent phenomenon that 0:32:16.360 --> 0:32:19.160 you're not really sensitive to all the little details, and 0:32:19.200 --> 0:32:22.760 that you could build a model that predicts roughly where 0:32:22.800 --> 0:32:25.280 things are going. If you don't care about the details, 0:32:25.360 --> 0:32:27.960 you can tell whether somebody's gonna have a cookie and 0:32:28.000 --> 0:32:29.960 who they're going to vote for the next election. It's 0:32:30.000 --> 0:32:32.720 possible that you could build those models, but that requires 0:32:32.720 --> 0:32:36.400 a sort of another layer of insight. Right. Imagine you 0:32:36.800 --> 0:32:39.840 only knew the baseball in terms of little particles inside 0:32:39.840 --> 0:32:41.200 of it. You're like, oh, there's no way I could 0:32:41.200 --> 0:32:43.240 predict the way this baseball is gonna move. There's ten 0:32:43.280 --> 0:32:47.080 to the twenty three particles. It's impossible. But if you understand, 0:32:47.080 --> 0:32:49.280 if you took a step back and saw the flight 0:32:49.320 --> 0:32:51.280 of it, you can say, oh, actually, I can describe 0:32:51.320 --> 0:32:53.760 this and ignore all the particles. I can ignore all 0:32:53.760 --> 0:32:56.800 those details they're not relevant, and I can just describe 0:32:56.840 --> 0:32:59.520 this in terms of simple motion. So it's possible that 0:32:59.600 --> 0:33:03.640 there's an emergent theory of psychology mathematical psychology that could 0:33:03.920 --> 0:33:05.960 describe the motion of the brain. We just don't know, 0:33:06.760 --> 0:33:09.600 or I wonder if it might vary with people. You know, 0:33:09.680 --> 0:33:12.960 some people might be more predictable than others. Yeah, I 0:33:13.000 --> 0:33:17.000 certainly know some people who seem pretty chaotic. All right, Well, 0:33:17.280 --> 0:33:19.600 those are two pretty big hurdles, and but then there's 0:33:19.760 --> 0:33:23.719 um another hurdle coming up and and or possibly a 0:33:23.720 --> 0:33:27.000 loophole that might still let us have some free will 0:33:27.040 --> 0:33:31.760 in this deterministic machine like universe. So let's get into that. 0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:47.240 But first let's take a quick break, all right, Daniel. 0:33:47.280 --> 0:33:53.040 The last topic here is about randomness and whether randomness 0:33:53.040 --> 0:33:57.480 at the quantum level can maybe effect what we see 0:33:57.520 --> 0:34:00.000 as free will, or whether it can affect with or 0:34:00.080 --> 0:34:02.400 not we can predict what people will think or do. 0:34:02.600 --> 0:34:04.760 The whole premise here, The assumption we're making is that 0:34:04.840 --> 0:34:08.560 the brain should be predictable if it's various bits are predictable, 0:34:08.719 --> 0:34:10.600 if it's made out of predictable bits, then you should 0:34:10.600 --> 0:34:13.279 be able to put those predictable bits together into a 0:34:13.320 --> 0:34:17.240 predictable brain. But listeners of the podcast are probably wondering, 0:34:17.600 --> 0:34:20.520 are those bits predictable? The brain is made of atoms, 0:34:20.560 --> 0:34:22.719 and atoms are made of protons and electrons and all 0:34:22.800 --> 0:34:25.680 this stuff, and we know that those things are quantum mechanical, 0:34:25.719 --> 0:34:28.880 and we talked on the podcast recently about the crazy 0:34:28.920 --> 0:34:33.120 probabilistic nature or quantum mechanics, that things are not determined 0:34:33.160 --> 0:34:36.200 until their measures, that there is really true randomness at 0:34:36.200 --> 0:34:39.080 the quantum scale. So you might be wondering, how can 0:34:39.120 --> 0:34:43.399 you build determinism on top of this fuzzy quantum randomness. Yeah, 0:34:43.440 --> 0:34:45.520 because we talked about some of the challenges, right, We 0:34:45.600 --> 0:34:48.680 talked about scanning your brain and about chaos, and but 0:34:48.760 --> 0:34:52.239 those are technical problems. You're saying that maybe just in 0:34:52.280 --> 0:34:55.400 the bits themselves of the brain, there is some inherent 0:34:55.920 --> 0:35:00.319 randomness that might make it impossible to predict. Absolutely, we 0:35:00.440 --> 0:35:03.239 know that there's inherent randomness. Everything, as we say, is 0:35:03.320 --> 0:35:06.440 made of atoms, and those things are governed by fundamentally 0:35:06.480 --> 0:35:11.000 quantum mechanical properties. What we don't know is if that matters, right, 0:35:11.040 --> 0:35:14.520 It certainly doesn't matter for predicting the motion of a 0:35:14.560 --> 0:35:18.080 mechanical watch. People can build mechanical watches that are super 0:35:18.120 --> 0:35:20.640 accurate for years at a time. We can predict the 0:35:20.680 --> 0:35:23.800 flight of a baseball without even knowing that quantum mechanics 0:35:23.840 --> 0:35:26.799 was the thing. I remember. Quantum mechanics affects things only 0:35:26.800 --> 0:35:31.799 on super duper tiny scales. The uncertainty principle delta x 0:35:31.840 --> 0:35:36.320 delta P the relationship between the uncertainty and motion and position. 0:35:36.800 --> 0:35:39.880 The uncertainty there is is related to this. Planks constant 0:35:39.960 --> 0:35:42.520 each bar, which is like the fundamental unit of the universe. 0:35:42.600 --> 0:35:45.120 But this is a super tiny number. It's ten to 0:35:45.160 --> 0:35:49.120 the minus thirty four jewels. And so it might be 0:35:49.520 --> 0:35:52.120 that on top of the quantum randomness, we do have 0:35:52.360 --> 0:35:55.640 a layer of physics which is deterministic. Or it could 0:35:55.680 --> 0:35:57.840 be that you know that the quantum randomness sort of 0:35:57.880 --> 0:36:00.279 seeps up from below and affects the world working of 0:36:00.360 --> 0:36:03.120 the brain. Okay, so you're saying that there is a 0:36:03.200 --> 0:36:08.759 fundamental randomness in the universe and in my brain cells, 0:36:08.800 --> 0:36:13.520 Like at the to the smallest level, I can't possibly 0:36:13.520 --> 0:36:16.880 predict my brain, but maybe if I go up a 0:36:16.920 --> 0:36:20.120 few levels, then the brain starts to be more predictable. 0:36:20.200 --> 0:36:22.040 We see this in physics. We see at the very 0:36:22.080 --> 0:36:24.960 smallest levels you cannot predict what's going to happen. You 0:36:25.000 --> 0:36:27.800 shoot the same photon into the same experiment twice, you 0:36:27.880 --> 0:36:31.719 get two different outcomes. There's really true randomness there, and 0:36:31.800 --> 0:36:36.680 that breaks determinism. So photons not deterministic, electrons not deterministic. 0:36:36.920 --> 0:36:41.840 Protons not deterministic. But somehow, when you put these things together, 0:36:42.080 --> 0:36:45.719 you put enough of them together, all those random fluctuations 0:36:45.760 --> 0:36:48.560 average out that basically cancel each other. This is a 0:36:48.680 --> 0:36:51.440 deep theorem in physics. It's called the air infest theorem, 0:36:51.480 --> 0:36:53.680 that you have enough of these things and it doesn't 0:36:53.719 --> 0:36:55.759 matter anymore as long as you're measuring things on the 0:36:55.840 --> 0:36:59.960 sort of classical scale and sizes that we care about centimeters, millimeters. 0:37:00.040 --> 0:37:03.200 Even then the quantum mechanic effects average out, which is 0:37:03.320 --> 0:37:06.239 why we didn't notice quantum mechanics for thousands of years. 0:37:06.400 --> 0:37:09.560 It's hidden inside the summation of all of these quantum 0:37:09.600 --> 0:37:12.399 little events. Yeah, which is why it was so hard 0:37:12.440 --> 0:37:15.600 to accept. Right, we had just accepted the mind boggling 0:37:15.600 --> 0:37:19.120 consequences of a deterministic universe, like, wow, the universe seems 0:37:19.120 --> 0:37:21.040 to follow rules and we can predict it. And then 0:37:21.080 --> 0:37:23.880 we discovered, oh, actually no, at its deepest level, it 0:37:23.920 --> 0:37:27.000 seems weirdly random. And that was totally in contradiction with 0:37:27.040 --> 0:37:29.760 everything we thought we understood, which is why quantum mechanics 0:37:29.800 --> 0:37:33.360 are so counterintuitive and so fuzzy. But still, it didn't 0:37:33.400 --> 0:37:36.400 mean that all those things we learned were wrong. It 0:37:36.480 --> 0:37:39.280 just meant that they applied to sort of the larger scales, 0:37:39.320 --> 0:37:43.240 that those same rules can't be applied to electrons and protons. 0:37:43.280 --> 0:37:46.040 But they can still be applied to baseballs and watches. 0:37:46.600 --> 0:37:49.800 So then the question is is your brain a baseball 0:37:49.800 --> 0:37:52.319 and watch or is it an electron. Yeah, it's kind 0:37:52.320 --> 0:37:55.080 of like if I said, um, hey, Dana, I'm gonna 0:37:55.080 --> 0:37:57.279 flip this coin, and if it's head, i'm gonna take 0:37:57.320 --> 0:37:59.279 your cookie, and if its tails, I'm not going to 0:37:59.360 --> 0:38:01.799 take your cookie. Then it then it's kind of like 0:38:02.200 --> 0:38:04.440 then you might say it's unpredictable what am I gonna do? Right, 0:38:04.680 --> 0:38:07.680 because you don't know except that a coin is deterministic. 0:38:07.800 --> 0:38:10.279 A coin is a classical object. If I knew exactly 0:38:10.320 --> 0:38:12.839 how you're gonna flip it, I could predict exactly how 0:38:12.880 --> 0:38:14.960 that coin was gonna land, and I would know that 0:38:15.000 --> 0:38:16.480 you were going to take the cookie no matter how 0:38:16.480 --> 0:38:19.000 the coin flipped, actually, because I know you as a person, 0:38:19.680 --> 0:38:22.640 but but yeah, exactly the coin flip is not written. 0:38:22.680 --> 0:38:25.200 But if you, for example, how a radioactive particle and 0:38:25.239 --> 0:38:27.920 you said, I'm gonna wait one minute. If the particle 0:38:28.040 --> 0:38:30.440 decays in within this minute, I'm eating the cookie. And 0:38:30.440 --> 0:38:32.960 if it doesn't decay within this minute, I'm not eating 0:38:33.000 --> 0:38:35.920 the cookie. Then I can't predict whether or not you're 0:38:35.920 --> 0:38:38.440 gonna eat the cookie. That's because you linked a macroscopic 0:38:38.480 --> 0:38:42.600 action eating the cookie to a quantum mechanical thing. That's rare. Right, 0:38:42.640 --> 0:38:45.960 that's a whole Shrowdinger's box argument. It's very difficult to 0:38:46.000 --> 0:38:48.840 find quantum mechanic effects that you can see on the 0:38:48.880 --> 0:38:52.480 macroscopic scale. Oh, I see, like, if if I made 0:38:52.560 --> 0:38:59.319 my cookie eating dependent on whether this particle decays or not, 0:38:59.760 --> 0:39:02.960 then it's unpredictable. But if I make my eating the 0:39:03.000 --> 0:39:07.240 cookie depending on whether the particle will decay over a minute, 0:39:07.760 --> 0:39:10.960 then we know a lot more. Right, it's less unpredictable 0:39:10.960 --> 0:39:14.040 because you know that on average, most of these particles, 0:39:14.080 --> 0:39:17.680 let's say, like these particles decay within a minute. Yeah, 0:39:17.840 --> 0:39:20.960 that's true. And if you want to make statements about averages, 0:39:21.239 --> 0:39:23.799 then you're a rock solid footing even quantum mechanically, because 0:39:23.840 --> 0:39:26.319 quantum mechanics doesn't mean things don't follow laws. It just 0:39:26.360 --> 0:39:29.200 means those laws are probabilistic. And so you can say, 0:39:29.200 --> 0:39:31.120 on average, this is going to happen. On average, that's 0:39:31.160 --> 0:39:34.520 gonna happen for one particular particle. You can't make any 0:39:34.600 --> 0:39:37.799 predictions on a quantum mechanical scale, but you know what 0:39:37.920 --> 0:39:41.040 quantum mechanical effects do you observe as a person, Like 0:39:41.520 --> 0:39:45.160 for quantum, for something to affect your life that's really random, 0:39:45.400 --> 0:39:48.120 it has to have an impact like that somebody's measuring 0:39:48.160 --> 0:39:51.200 this quantum mechanical thing and making a decision based on it. 0:39:51.200 --> 0:39:54.840 It's really pretty rare for quantum mechanical randomness to affect 0:39:54.960 --> 0:39:58.920 the macroscopic world. People do really complicated experiments to try 0:39:58.920 --> 0:40:01.799 to set this kind of thing up. Bose Einstein condensate. 0:40:02.200 --> 0:40:05.400 It's like a macroscopic quantum state that you can see 0:40:05.719 --> 0:40:08.960 that actually behaves quantum mechanically. It's really weird and amazing, 0:40:08.960 --> 0:40:12.400 and people want the Nobel Prize for that. So two, 0:40:12.440 --> 0:40:15.800 for the brain to be dependent on quantum mechanical randomness, 0:40:15.840 --> 0:40:18.480 you'd have to show somehow that like the motion of 0:40:18.560 --> 0:40:23.040 these electrons and this weird quantum mechanical effect was triggering neurons, 0:40:23.040 --> 0:40:26.759 and neurons were somehow sensitive to these things. Yeah, So 0:40:26.920 --> 0:40:30.000 it's so it's it's it's fundamentally random. But the question, 0:40:30.120 --> 0:40:32.279 it seems like the core and the key question here 0:40:32.360 --> 0:40:36.360 is whether that randomness at the quantum level really affects 0:40:36.360 --> 0:40:38.400 whether I'm going to eat my cookie or not, or 0:40:38.400 --> 0:40:41.960 whether that all gets drowned out by the Brazilian electrons 0:40:41.960 --> 0:40:43.719 that I have in my brain. And there are some 0:40:43.760 --> 0:40:46.239 folks who have made that argument, and I think that 0:40:46.239 --> 0:40:50.320 that argument is largely in response to fear of determinism. 0:40:50.360 --> 0:40:52.479 They don't want to think that the that the brain 0:40:52.600 --> 0:40:54.920 is just a mechanical watch that can be predicted. So 0:40:54.920 --> 0:40:58.400 there's sort of striving for some way to leave a 0:40:58.440 --> 0:41:00.600 window open for free will. And they, oh, well, if 0:41:00.640 --> 0:41:03.279 we can connect it to quantum randomness, then you know 0:41:03.320 --> 0:41:05.640 you can't be predicted and therefore there might be room 0:41:05.680 --> 0:41:08.640 for free will. And famous people like Roger Penrose make 0:41:08.680 --> 0:41:11.680 this argument, but it's just a it's more like a 0:41:11.680 --> 0:41:14.560 an outline of an argument. There's no evidence that the 0:41:14.600 --> 0:41:17.600 brain is dependent on quantum mechanic. It's just like, can 0:41:17.680 --> 0:41:20.880 we find some path maybe go down that leads us 0:41:20.920 --> 0:41:24.400 to a nondeterministic brain. There's no real evidence or argument there. 0:41:24.400 --> 0:41:27.600 It's just like a suggestion. Well, the I think the 0:41:27.640 --> 0:41:30.000 thing is that it's it's a it's a yes or 0:41:30.040 --> 0:41:32.719 no decision, right, whether I eat the cookie, it's either 0:41:32.840 --> 0:41:35.440 yes or no. So I'm kind of like sitting on 0:41:35.520 --> 0:41:39.759 the edge of a really thin knife, right, and you 0:41:39.800 --> 0:41:42.279 know who knows. Are you can you really rule out 0:41:42.280 --> 0:41:46.600 that you know how one particular electron behaved it was 0:41:46.840 --> 0:41:49.120 resulted in pushing me one way or the other, Or 0:41:49.160 --> 0:41:54.040 are you saying that pretty much that's unlikely. No, I'm 0:41:54.040 --> 0:41:55.560 not saying that we can rule it out at all. 0:41:55.600 --> 0:41:57.520 You're totally right, and it could be that there are 0:41:57.600 --> 0:42:01.040 quantum mechanic effects that determine whether you make that decision. 0:42:01.080 --> 0:42:03.920 It's possible, but I'm saying we have no evidence for that. 0:42:04.080 --> 0:42:06.800 Nobody has shown that we don't even understand the mechanism 0:42:06.880 --> 0:42:08.799 of it. That doesn't mean it's not happening. It just 0:42:08.880 --> 0:42:12.160 means that it's more of a suggestion, an open door, 0:42:12.400 --> 0:42:15.400 than an actual idea. All right, well, I feel I 0:42:15.440 --> 0:42:17.799 feel pretty good. I feel like we um we're right 0:42:17.840 --> 0:42:20.960 where we predicted we would be. I think you deserved 0:42:20.960 --> 0:42:25.279 a cookie or a banana at the very list. Oh no, wait, 0:42:25.320 --> 0:42:28.319 do you say? I would say, there you go? But 0:42:28.440 --> 0:42:31.000 I think that there's some fascinating questions there, like even 0:42:31.040 --> 0:42:33.000 if you knew the answer to this question, even if 0:42:33.000 --> 0:42:36.759 you showed that the brain was deterministic or wasn't that 0:42:36.840 --> 0:42:40.000 the brain was quantum mechanically random, what would that mean 0:42:40.280 --> 0:42:43.400 for this experience of free will. Let me see if 0:42:43.440 --> 0:42:46.280 I can readat what we learned. We learned that it's 0:42:46.280 --> 0:42:50.200 predicting what people are going to do is super technically 0:42:50.280 --> 0:42:53.040 hard with the scanning all of the neurons in your 0:42:53.040 --> 0:42:58.000 brain and chaos maybe playing a large party making it unpredictable. 0:42:58.120 --> 0:43:00.480 But let's say like we invented technology to take care 0:43:00.520 --> 0:43:02.879 of that, there's still sort of the question of whether 0:43:03.000 --> 0:43:09.040 randomness trickles up to influence decisions, you know, randomness at 0:43:09.080 --> 0:43:12.440 the quantum level, whether that trickles up to influenced decisions, 0:43:12.520 --> 0:43:14.680 And it sounds like we we we don't know. It 0:43:14.719 --> 0:43:16.960 sounds like we can't say either way. That's right. Quantum 0:43:16.960 --> 0:43:20.919 mechanics might make it theoretically impossible to predict the brain. 0:43:21.000 --> 0:43:23.680 We don't know, And if it doesn't, if it doesn't 0:43:23.680 --> 0:43:26.400 make it impossible, and we know, it's still super duper 0:43:26.480 --> 0:43:29.319 hard because you need to know the exact state of 0:43:29.320 --> 0:43:32.800 the brain and you need to overcome the potential overwhelming 0:43:32.960 --> 0:43:36.919 chaos of your billions and billions of neurons. So even 0:43:36.960 --> 0:43:40.239 if it's not impossible, it's definitely very very tricky, right, 0:43:40.320 --> 0:43:42.000 And then we could probably have a whole podcast just 0:43:42.080 --> 0:43:45.279 on the implications on how we feel about free will 0:43:45.360 --> 0:43:48.640 and whether it would still exist even if it was 0:43:48.960 --> 0:43:51.879 governed by quantum randomness. That's right, And this is an 0:43:51.920 --> 0:43:55.480 area of philosophy, And neither you nor I have formal 0:43:55.480 --> 0:43:57.400 training in philosophy. What do you mean have a doctorate 0:43:57.400 --> 0:44:03.520 in philosophy in engineerings. So then let me ask you, Jorge, 0:44:03.800 --> 0:44:06.560 if I could prove that you were deterministic, does that 0:44:06.640 --> 0:44:08.960 mean you don't have free will? This being a big 0:44:09.000 --> 0:44:11.759 mechanical robot mean you're not making choices? Or is that 0:44:11.840 --> 0:44:15.640 just describe the choices you are you are making? I 0:44:15.680 --> 0:44:18.759 think that would be bananas. No, I think for me 0:44:18.880 --> 0:44:20.839 it sort of doesn't matter. I feel like it doesn't matter. 0:44:20.840 --> 0:44:23.160 I'm not I'm not someone who sweats free will too much. 0:44:23.640 --> 0:44:25.680 To be honest, Like, I feel like it might be 0:44:25.719 --> 0:44:29.239 a robot. That's fine, And um, you know, currently it's 0:44:29.239 --> 0:44:31.120 almost like who would want to predict what I'm going 0:44:31.160 --> 0:44:33.160 to do? Do you know what I mean? Like, it's 0:44:33.239 --> 0:44:37.160 such like, why is this problem even interesting? Who would 0:44:37.160 --> 0:44:39.200 take the time to care about what I'm going to 0:44:39.320 --> 0:44:42.279 think and do? Um? So, as long as nobody else 0:44:42.320 --> 0:44:44.640 can think or would want to know, what I think 0:44:44.680 --> 0:44:46.759 and do. Then to me like, okay, I could be 0:44:46.800 --> 0:44:48.520 a robot or I could not be a robot. Well, 0:44:48.520 --> 0:44:50.960 I think there's an implication of moral responsibility. We've been 0:44:51.000 --> 0:44:53.400 talking about you eating a cookie. What if that was 0:44:53.480 --> 0:44:56.920 somebody else's cookie, right, and you ate that person's cookie, 0:44:57.160 --> 0:44:59.600 Then could you say, Hey, I didn't make that choice. 0:44:59.640 --> 0:45:02.000 I have no free will, and therefore I can't be 0:45:02.040 --> 0:45:05.640 more morally culpable. If everybody is deterministic and people aren't 0:45:05.719 --> 0:45:08.680 making choices, than our sort of whole theory of morality 0:45:08.760 --> 0:45:12.000 kind of falls apart and we can't really punish anybody 0:45:12.000 --> 0:45:14.920 for anything. All right, we'll say that. For our other podcast, 0:45:15.000 --> 0:45:18.839 Daniel and Jorge explain the Moral Universe. Daniel and Jorge 0:45:19.160 --> 0:45:21.400 um blather on about philosophy. They don't really know what 0:45:21.440 --> 0:45:24.680 they're talking about. I would listen to that, and I 0:45:24.760 --> 0:45:27.799 predict that a lot of people will probably not. But 0:45:27.840 --> 0:45:29.680 I think these are, like many of the things that 0:45:29.680 --> 0:45:31.879 we talked about on the show, there are deep implications 0:45:31.920 --> 0:45:34.240 for just what it means to be human being. Often 0:45:34.239 --> 0:45:37.319 we talk about how the universe was created and how 0:45:37.360 --> 0:45:39.200 it came to be in his future, and that has 0:45:39.560 --> 0:45:43.000 deep importance for people, how what people think about their 0:45:43.040 --> 0:45:45.279 place in the cosmos and how they should live their lives. 0:45:45.360 --> 0:45:47.840 And this is similar. It's a question, you know, is 0:45:47.840 --> 0:45:50.239 this the threshold that science will ever cross? And if so, 0:45:50.320 --> 0:45:52.600 what does it mean? And so I love the fact 0:45:52.640 --> 0:45:55.719 that science is so relevant sometimes that everything touches the 0:45:55.800 --> 0:45:57.560 deep core of how you're gonna live your life and 0:45:57.600 --> 0:45:59.480 what it means to be human. Yeah, it's amazing to 0:45:59.560 --> 0:46:02.359 think that physics can have such an impact in who 0:46:02.400 --> 0:46:06.520 we are as a in our souls, in our conception 0:46:06.600 --> 0:46:08.640 of who we are. Well, physics is deep in my 0:46:08.680 --> 0:46:11.640 soul and now maybe you're discovering it's actually deep in 0:46:11.719 --> 0:46:16.080 your soul as well. We got you, We infected your soul, 0:46:16.880 --> 0:46:19.880 dear audience, physics. All right, Well, thanks for joining us. 0:46:19.920 --> 0:46:22.279 We hope you enjoyed that, and we hope that meant 0:46:22.320 --> 0:46:25.680 all of your expectations. But what this podcast was going 0:46:25.719 --> 0:46:27.920 to be, that's right. Thanks for tuning in. And for 0:46:27.960 --> 0:46:31.400 those of you who wonder whether science can actually explain 0:46:31.400 --> 0:46:34.239 the universe, remember that we don't know. Science has worked 0:46:34.239 --> 0:46:36.120 pretty well so far and been able to explain a 0:46:36.200 --> 0:46:38.279 lot of what we've seen, but there might be some 0:46:38.360 --> 0:46:40.719 day in the future where we find some phenomenon that 0:46:40.840 --> 0:46:43.800 can't be explained by science, or by our current visioning 0:46:43.840 --> 0:46:47.000 of science or our mathematical rules. So we are continuing 0:46:47.040 --> 0:46:49.600 on this journey of trying to explore and explain the 0:46:49.680 --> 0:46:52.399 universe we find around us. Thanks for joining us, see 0:46:52.400 --> 0:47:02.360 you next time. Before you still have a question after 0:47:02.400 --> 0:47:05.520 listening to all these explanations, please drop us the line. 0:47:05.560 --> 0:47:07.719 We'd love to hear from you. You can find us 0:47:07.719 --> 0:47:11.520 on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Daniel and Jorge That's 0:47:11.560 --> 0:47:14.920 one Word, or email us at Feedback at Daniel and 0:47:15.040 --> 0:47:18.480 Jorge dot com. Thanks for listening and remember that Daniel 0:47:18.520 --> 0:47:21.040 and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of I 0:47:21.280 --> 0:47:24.719 Heart Radio. For more podcast from my heart Radio, visit 0:47:24.760 --> 0:47:28.239 the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 0:47:28.320 --> 0:47:29.840 listen to your favorite shows.