1 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: If it doesn't work, you're just not using enough. You're 2 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: listening to Software Radio Special Operations, military news and straight 3 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: talk with the guys and the community. Hello again, everyone, 4 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Software Radio. I'm your host today, Steve 5 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: alastori Um Soft Radio on Time, on Target. We always 6 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: try to bring you the best of what's going on 7 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: out there in the world, and today we have a 8 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: very special guest with us, Justinali, who just finished a book. 9 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,279 Speaker 1: It's called Eagle Down, The Last Special Forces Fighting in 10 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 1: the Forever War. It was a absolutely fantastic read. It 11 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: was a little concerning, a little upsetting, I guess you 12 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: could say, as a former Special Forces guy. And we're 13 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: going to get into the reasons for all that. But 14 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: Jess Uh was the Wall Street Journals UH person on 15 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: the ground, I guess you could say, they're bureau chief 16 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: in Afghanistan for about four years, excuse me. So she 17 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 1: definitely spent her time there. She was embedded with the 18 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: Afghan SF guys, with the American as of guys. She 19 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: has a fantastic story to tell. We're going to get 20 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 1: into that in her book, but before we do any 21 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,559 Speaker 1: of that, we want to welcome her to the podcast. Jess, 22 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: thank you for taking the time, I should say this 23 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: evening because you're joining us from the beautiful country of 24 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: South Africa today. Thank you very much for having me 25 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 1: well what it is our pleasure and I just have 26 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: to ask you real quick. Um. You know, I know, 27 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: prior to going to Afghanistan, you spent some time in 28 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: Libya during the you know, the fall of Kadafi and 29 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: the civil war. There was it a big difference from 30 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: you for you, I should say, I know Olibya was 31 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: your first war that you covered. Was it a big 32 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: difference going from say, Libya to Afghanistan for me? It wasn't. 33 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: For me, it was a huge difference, um. I mean 34 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: not just on a personal level, because one thing is 35 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: when you've never been in a war before, to find 36 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: yourself in a war for the first time, that causes 37 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: quite a big sort of personal development. But the Libyan 38 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: war went in two thousand and eleven when I was there, 39 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: was completely chaotic. You didn't know who controlled what, The 40 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: country was split into insert where you had Kadaki's forces 41 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: fighting off very sort of rag tygle science of different 42 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: Libyan militias in Afghanistan when I got there, for the 43 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: first time, which was in twenty twelve, it was it 44 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: felt like a war that had been set set in 45 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: for a long time. You know, everybody knew where they stood. 46 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: You had every country in the world. It felt like 47 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: with a steak with a sort of role on the stage, 48 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: and you knew, you know, this road is under this control, 49 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 1: the government has this, tallemant has that. And so it 50 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: felt a lot more organized, and it felt a lot 51 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: safer as well. Oh it did, yeah, because I know, 52 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: you know, at that time in Libya and again I'm 53 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: bouncing back and forth, but it seemed like, as you said, 54 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: very chaotic, and they probably didn't have any safety I 55 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: don't want to say safety nets, but like we're you know, 56 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: journalists were probably um kind of embedded more with the 57 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: war in Afghanistan, were probably in O Libbya. You guys 58 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: were left to fend for yourselves. Yeah, we were. I 59 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: mean we were to rely on our own I mean 60 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: in in Libya, we just we didn't have a bureau. 61 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: Nobody had to be a journalist just worked out of 62 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: one of a couple of hotels in town. There was 63 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: almost no supervision and very little security in terms of 64 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: you know, I wasn't with Reuters at the time. They 65 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: had one security guy in Tripoli for a huge number 66 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: of reporters and photographers, TV people. UM, so you were 67 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: very much left on your own. It was very risky, 68 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: you know, and it was and you had a lot 69 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: of freedom. I mean you could jump in a cab 70 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: and go, you know, tim as Rata, which is another 71 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: town like two hours away. Uh So it was it 72 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: was pretty yardly. But I mean even in Afghanistan, we 73 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: were very much left to operate on our own. Um 74 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: unlike sort of big I don't know diplomatic missions or 75 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: or companies. As a journalist, you are basically the person there. 76 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,119 Speaker 1: You're on your own. I lived in a shared house 77 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: with the journalists that worked for the Washington Post and 78 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: somebody else that rented a room from us. And uh 79 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 1: I was free to make up my days as I 80 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: wanted to do and if I wanted the only the 81 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 1: only sort of regulations that we had where if you 82 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: were going to leave the city of Kable, you had 83 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: to plan the trip with our security advisor and get 84 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: it signed off at headquarters. And the idea was that 85 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: the story had to be uh considered worth whatever risk 86 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 1: you were taking in any trip outside of cable towards 87 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: the end especially was considered high risk. UM, but you 88 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: came up with your own security plan pretty much. You know, 89 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 1: you think you explained to them how you were going 90 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: to make sure that you made it there and back 91 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 1: from one piece interesting, you know, and reading the book, 92 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: I think I came away would probably the same perspective 93 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: that a lot of former military, especially special forces guys 94 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: probably have. And to me, the biggest question of this booker, 95 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: why are American Special Forces guys still in Afghanistan? And 96 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: one of the they really doing because you know, we 97 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: tend to think of these guys they have a plan 98 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 1: and they're going to go in and uh, they're they're 99 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: going to do their mission, do their job, I guess 100 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: you could say, But in the book, it's so confusing. 101 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: And to me that was like it was very eye 102 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: opening to me. It seemed especially uh in the in 103 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 1: the earlier years sort of onwards, you had the Abam 104 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: administration saying that the war was over. They had delivered 105 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: on this campaign pledge. There were a fewer than ten 106 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: tho troops. They called it a training mission instead of 107 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 1: a combat mission, and it seemed to me that the 108 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: focus was very much to make it look like the 109 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: US was no longer a war, and at the same 110 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: time you had the reality on the ground, which was 111 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: but fast declining security situation, with the Afghan government forces 112 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:02,600 Speaker 1: unable to hold on to major population centers on their own, 113 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: and so you had to figure out how to back 114 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: them up. And obviously the answer came in the form 115 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: of special operations. Because because there's special operations, you don't 116 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: have to embed journalists with them, you don't have to 117 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: really account for what they're doing. You just sort of say, well, 118 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: it's a terrorism mission or it's a training mission, and 119 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: that's that, and you don't really know what's going on. 120 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: And unfortunately, unless you're somebody who's you know, maybe a 121 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: journalist that's been working there for a long time or 122 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: following the company made closely, the average person doesn't really 123 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: have any idea what US troops are actually doing or why, 124 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: because it's no longer talked about um and to me, 125 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: it seems that that they're sort of principal role has 126 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: mean to keep them Afghanistan out of the headlines, to 127 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: prevent the losses of major population centers, and to sort 128 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: of keep the two sides, the government and the Taliban 129 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: and insurgent side sort of fairly balanced on the battlefield. 130 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: The idea obviously is so that at this point, so 131 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: that you can support peace talks. But back then there 132 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: weren't even peace talks going on, and so that that's 133 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: what brought me to to decide to write the book, 134 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: because I thought it was important there should be some 135 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: kind of discussion over the way special operations were being 136 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: used and you know, whether there was any kind of 137 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: long term strategy. Yeah, and and you know, to me 138 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: that was the most disturbing part of the book is, 139 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: you know, we put these guys in harm's way, and 140 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 1: I say we as a country, I mean, we send 141 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:37,079 Speaker 1: them there. There they're in uh you know, uh provincial 142 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: capital that's under attacked by the Taliban. These guys are 143 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: in pretty pitched combat, They have wounded troops, they have 144 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: air assets all around them, and they're not allowed to 145 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: use them. And that, to me was it was shocking. 146 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: I'll admit it. I was under the impression that right 147 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: up until today, these guys had you know, everything at 148 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 1: their disposal and they were able to use it. And 149 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: of course in the book it comes out that they weren't, 150 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: and it may have, you know, contributed to some guys 151 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: getting hurt. Yeah, I think that was the feeling. Especially 152 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: earlier on before the Trump administration came in. They were 153 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: extremely strict rules on what what kind of support these 154 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: troops could have. So unless they were sort of, you know, 155 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: on the brink of total disaster, they wouldn't get the 156 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: air support and the idea or the logic in Washington, 157 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: which you know, always makes a lot more sense when 158 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: you're in Washington and it's sort of all neat the 159 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: organized going to say, well, you know, you have to 160 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: limit support because otherwise the Afghan's never going to do 161 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: it on their own, Whereas in reality is that nothing 162 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: really that Washington is going to do is going to 163 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: change how willing the Afghan forces are, how capable really 164 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: they are too to to provide support in the particular creations. 165 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: So these guys were getting put in very dangerous situations 166 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 1: without the support that they would normally get. Aside from that, 167 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: I mean, another thing that was common was because the 168 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: administration had planned to pull all troops out, and because 169 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: they supposedly went to combat anymore, they didn't have some 170 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: of the resources that would they would usually have you know, 171 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: like um like the ability to drop supplies with the 172 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: GPS guided supplies, right, so they would just push things 173 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: out of an airplane and they would land wherever, and 174 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: then they had to go find them in the middle 175 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: of you know, a Taliban controlled village rather than be 176 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: able to guide them to the exact place where they were. 177 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,319 Speaker 1: So there were other other factors that further exposed them. 178 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: When the Trump administration came in, they did relax some 179 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: of the some of the restrictions, which which brought some 180 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: some relief, and of course then tightened them up again 181 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: once the deal was signed. Yeah, and you mentioned in 182 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: the board that the Afghan you know, special operations guys 183 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: that the US trained, they're real spread awfully, awfully thin, 184 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: and that was a major issue, and it was an 185 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: issue with those guys in in fact a couple of 186 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: times that you know, it seemed like they they were, 187 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: I don't want to say losing their will to fight, 188 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: but they were getting very frustrated themselves over this. Yeah. 189 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,719 Speaker 1: I mean the Afghan commanders, I mean even more than 190 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: I mean than than police and the army forces. I mean, 191 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: they come under a lot of criticism because they're seen 192 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: as not wanting they don't want to fight, or they 193 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 1: give up along the way. But you have to remember 194 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: is that I like, uh, you know, American troops who 195 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: can cycle in and out every six months or or 196 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: however long. These guys are stuck for the long hold. 197 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:49,239 Speaker 1: You know, we embedded with commanders that had been commanders 198 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: pretty much in the same position for ten years. You know, 199 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: they were incredibly experienced, incredibly smart, perceptive guys who were 200 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: alive by miracle, and most of the people had started 201 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: out with were no longer alive. Uh. And you know, 202 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 1: they're in the same position where they're being sent out 203 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: to basically rescue you villages and district centers from the 204 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: Taliban to make it look like that the government isn't 205 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: losing um and they're seeing the same places fall over 206 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: and over again, and they're being sent back to the 207 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: same places and they can go and drive the Taliban out. 208 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: But the problem is there's no plan after that to 209 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 1: ensure the place doesn't fall back under um insurgent control. 210 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: So it's very demoralizing for them and at a certain point, 211 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:33,839 Speaker 1: you know, their own sense of survival has to kick in. 212 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: The Other thing that is also important to remember is 213 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: that they don't have any nice benefits system waiting for 214 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: them when they get back or if they die. You know, 215 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: nobody's going to look after their family. If they get wounded, 216 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: they're pretty much left on their own or anyone or 217 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: you know, they can be helped out by contacts that 218 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: they might have, but chances are, you know, that's it's 219 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: ruinous for them. So you can understand why they're reluctant 220 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: to put themselves on the line right in um. You know, 221 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: when you're looking at these Afghan commandos, I mean, it 222 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: seems like they're the best fighting force that the Afghans have, 223 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: but there's just not enough of them. And you know, 224 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: we're always talking about the Afghan standing on their own, 225 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: but it seems like once the US does pull out, 226 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,599 Speaker 1: these guys are going to be really hard pressed to 227 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: hold onto a lot of their areas because it seems 228 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: like they're the fireman going from one hotspot to another. Yeah, 229 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: I mean, they are exactly like firemen. And the problem 230 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: is it takes a lot of time to build, you know, 231 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: a commando. And while they the government has tried to 232 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: increase the production of them, you know, the quality isn't 233 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: going to be as good because they won't have had 234 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: as much training. In earlier years they worked, the commanders 235 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: worked very closely with U S Special Forces. Obviously, as 236 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 1: the number of your special forces has gone down on 237 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 1: so has that level of interaction, which also reduces the 238 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: amount of training that they have. So you have more 239 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: commanders which are less trained, acting as firemen. Um, it's 240 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: not it's not a sustainable situation. At this is not 241 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: a situation that's going to turn around things on the 242 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: battlefield in the way that is hoped. Uh. And once 243 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: the US leaves, you know they're going to leave not 244 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: just with with the troops, but the air support they provide, 245 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: the transport support. You know, some the Afghans rely on 246 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: the US to be able to sort of ferry finders 247 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: into the battlefield along with providing air support and intelligence support, 248 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: so all of that will go. Um And and these 249 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: guys I mean likely to have limited loyalty to the 250 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: couple administration, which is seen to be horribly corrupt and 251 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: their own military leadership which is also seen to be 252 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: pretty corrupt, where they steal food, uniforms, vacation time, that 253 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: sort of things. So rather than seeing some vantage, you 254 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: might see Uh fires to gravitate towards who they see 255 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: is their natural leader, whether it's by tribal association or 256 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: ethnicity or some other thing. We're speaking today with Justinali, 257 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: the author of Eagle Down, the Last Special Forces Fighting 258 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: in the Forever War here on Software Radio, and and 259 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: just there was a couple of very compelling characters. That 260 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: all of the characters were compelling, but a couple of 261 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: them I wanted to mention because I think we could 262 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: probably spend days and days talking about everybody that's in 263 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: the book. But obviously Hutch was a focal point in 264 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: the book, and how difficult was it to get him 265 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: to open open up to you and talk about what 266 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: actually went down, especially in the part of the mission 267 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: that went bad during the retaking of one of the 268 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: provincial capitals. Yeah, I think that. I mean the way 269 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: that I got to know Huch was through a different 270 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: story that I was researching. Um. I had heard his 271 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: name Uh sort of in these circles of contractors in 272 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: carbl so I knew I knew who he was, But 273 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: I was investigating a story about a former Green Beret 274 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: who was raising trying to raise an anti Islamic State 275 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: militia in the East, and that effort had gone horribly wrong. 276 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: They had ended up decapitating these ISIS fighters and putting 277 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: their heads on piles of rocks. It was very gruesome. 278 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: He got into lots of trouble, but he claimed to 279 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: have support from American Special Forces and so the person 280 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: who claimed supported him was Hutched. So I reached out 281 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: to Hutch and I said, you know, would you like 282 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: to explain why you guys have been supporting a militia 283 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: that decapitates people and puts their heads on on rocks. 284 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: And he was very worried that another very negative story 285 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: would come out about US Special Forces and that, you know, 286 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: soon after the bombing of the MSF hospital. UM and 287 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: so that's how I initially got to speak to him, 288 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: um and he he clarified some of the details of 289 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 1: that story. So, as it turned out, the guy had 290 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: been vastly overstating the amount of support that he had 291 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: from the U. S military. UM and Uh. I was 292 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: always fascinated by Hatching's story because, um, I, we had 293 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: heard so much about everybody else involved in that incident 294 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 1: that no one had ever heard from the soldiers who 295 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: were involved. And I was really interested to know his 296 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: viewpoint and how you know, how he I guess lived 297 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: with what had happened and how he viewed it. And uh. 298 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: And over over the years, as I got to know 299 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: more Green Berets that had fought at the time and 300 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: convinced the critical mass of them too participate in the book, 301 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 1: I asked him if he would, if he would do it, 302 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: and and he agreed. Uh, And I think you know it, 303 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: just it. I think the thing that soldiers most worry 304 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: about when they speak to journalists, that journalists are going 305 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 1: to have an agenda um or that they have some 306 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,439 Speaker 1: kind of motivation for it. And for for me, I 307 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 1: really just wanted to tell um part a story, or 308 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 1: tell part of the Afghan War that I felt wasn't 309 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: being represented anymore in the news because journal has no 310 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 1: longer had access to special operations in the government, was 311 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: no longer really saying what they were doing, and they 312 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,959 Speaker 1: did have this critical part, and so I wanted to 313 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: do as be as fair and balanced as possible. And 314 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: that was and I guess that finally convinced to convinced 315 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: the guys to to participate right and during this one operation, 316 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,959 Speaker 1: and I believe they couldn't do. I think it is 317 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: the operation there. What happened was the Afghan commando said, 318 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: come under fire. Um, they had identified of a target 319 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: for air for an air strike, and there was a 320 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: mistake made and the target ended up being a hospital 321 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: with doctors without borders, and and it went horribly wrong. 322 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: But you know, um, rather than trying to it seemed like, 323 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: rather than trying to find out what had happened and 324 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: interviewing the soldiers, it seemed like the higher ups in 325 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: Cobble immediately declared it a war crime, and you know, 326 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: went after hutch and um, you know, they kept asking 327 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: him and you mentioned it in the book you want 328 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: to change your story, you aren't. And they were accusing 329 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: him basically of lying. And it was before even all 330 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 1: the events had come out, and then later on after 331 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: the fact that he was proven correct, but it was 332 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: still a horrible mistake. And one of that was one 333 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: of the more compelling parts of the book because in 334 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: it you're you're not only getting his perspective as you 335 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: talked to him, but his wife in back in the States. 336 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: You know, he's talking to her on the phone and 337 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 1: she's like, well there already calling the work round and 338 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: it was just a terrible, terrible incident, and no one 339 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: came out on top of that one. No, yeah, it wasn't. 340 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: And I think that was one of the one of 341 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 1: the one of the incidents that did to breed a 342 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: certain amount of resentment amongst the ranks of sort of 343 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: the soldiers on the ground, hutches level and below, because 344 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 1: they felt that they've been thrown under a bus because 345 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: you had you know that this major city falls to 346 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 1: the Taliban. You've got pictures on Twitter of the Taliban 347 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 1: sort of partying in the middle of Kundus, and you 348 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: send in these guys who've never been to Kundas before 349 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: on this very dangerous mission to rescue the city, and 350 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: then when something goes wrong, you then act like they 351 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 1: are war criminals and you don't take any responsibility for 352 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 1: the fact that you have come up with a plan 353 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: to leave Afghanistan that's not sustainable. Because the problem was 354 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,719 Speaker 1: was the dynamic that the Americans had withdrawn support from 355 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: Africa and forces. African forces were not ready to hold 356 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: on to the to the territory that they were supposed 357 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: to hold on in the US wasn't prepared to let 358 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: it go. Um you know, another way that could have 359 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: turned out was the U S could have said, Okay, 360 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: they lost Kundus, we're going to step back because, as 361 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 1: we said, we're no longer involved in this war, and 362 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,360 Speaker 1: things that have turned out differently. But they weren't prepared 363 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: to both let go of the war and and and 364 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 1: the fighting. Yeah, and that, you know, because at that point, 365 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: like two thousand, two thousand and fifteen, you know, the 366 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: government is telling us, you know, we're not at war 367 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: anymore in Afghanistan. And there's the famous saying at that 368 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 1: time was there's no boots on the ground. I remember 369 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: hearing that quite often in the news. But there were 370 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: boots on the ground, and it seemed like, um without 371 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: well i'll just call it like I see it. It 372 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: seemed like the higher uption cobble were setting these special 373 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: forces eight teams up to fail. Yeah. I think they were, 374 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: I mean, or to fail or I mean I think 375 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: I think there weren't a lot of a lot of 376 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: the missions that they did, and especially sort of later 377 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: on if you look towards what was going on in 378 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 1: later years. I mean, they did the missions did succeed 379 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: in the short term. I mean, even in Kunda's. Even 380 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: with the disastrous bombing of the hospital, they did get 381 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: the city back under Afghan government control, there still was 382 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: very little information out about the role that the US 383 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 1: had actually had, and the whole aim of keeping these 384 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: secret was to make it look like the Afghan government 385 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 1: had done it, but mostly by themselves. And so from 386 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: that perspective, I mean, you could say the missions had succeeded, 387 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 1: but they hadn't. There was no long term success built 388 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 1: into it because there was no plan to avoid losing 389 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: the city again and having to send the O. D 390 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: a s Back in over and over again to the 391 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: same places. Right. You know that as you mentioned earlier, 392 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: you mentioned that, um, there was some hard feelings between 393 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: some of the soldiers and you know, either the government 394 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: or their military headquarters. And you know, one of the 395 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: quotes that I wrote down from the book because I 396 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: mean I thought it was quite telling, where you know, 397 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 1: one of the troops said, we don't know what our 398 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 1: goals are because they keep changing all the time. You 399 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: don't know what we're supposed to be doing. Yet you 400 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: keep sending us out on crazy missions where we could 401 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: all die for no reason. And that isn't something you 402 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: would normally hear from SF troops when they're talking to 403 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: their commanders, right, yeah, and that um and that soldier 404 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: ends up stepping on a mine and sang in during 405 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: an operation whose purpose is not really clear. I mean, uh, 406 00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: you know why the US was out and a clearing 407 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: operation and sanging when they weren't supposed to be at 408 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: war anymore. Um, you know it was It is a question. 409 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: And that's how it was. As as things worsened in Afghanistan, 410 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: the rules changed, The rules that were sort of being 411 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: made in Washington changed, and as they were handed down, 412 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 1: the soldiers weren't really given any explanation for them. It 413 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: was more like, okay, from not going out at all, 414 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: now they're being told that they have to go out, 415 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: you know, every week and do an operation, which is 416 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: without any bigger goal other than to just do an 417 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: operation and clear something or yeah. So I think it 418 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: was very confusing for them. Yeah, and for someone who 419 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: spent so much time in Afghanistan, I believe it's like 420 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 1: four years of your life that you spent there. You know. 421 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: One of the things that I've always been fascinated by, 422 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: and I wanted to ask you that just you your 423 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: personal opinion on this. Having been there, you know, um 424 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: for so many years, the US change in their mission 425 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: to kind of a nation building type of thing where 426 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: it seemed like Afghanistan has always been a tribal society. 427 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 1: Do you see just this is just your personal opinion, 428 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: do you see this changing, uh for the Afghans? I mean, 429 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: are they actually going to pull together as a country 430 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: or is it going to remain a tribal society for 431 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: years to come? You think, I mean, I think when 432 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: you know, when you're when you're there, you do see, 433 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: for example, the influence left by the Soviets, right like 434 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: there's an older Afghans that speak Russian and have you know, 435 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: were sent universities in Russian. And you see that kind 436 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,919 Speaker 1: of influence. In the same with the US. After twenty 437 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: years of the US being there, you see a lot 438 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: of US influence that has become part of Afghan society. 439 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: And um, you know in major cities, I mean Incabble 440 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: for example, for me, especially going back you know the 441 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 1: last time in ten you know there's cafes where you know, 442 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 1: men and women and they're singing together. You have one 443 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 1: or two I guess you could say nightclubs where they 444 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: can go listen to music and mix together, and there's 445 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: absolutely no foreigners involved in this. This is just an 446 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 1: Afghan Afghan thing. And so I think there are a 447 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: lot of Western values that have that have builded into 448 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: into society. But in the in the longer run, I mean, 449 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: there's no way that the US can build a country 450 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: in its in its own image or in any image. 451 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: I mean, Afghanistan has a very long history with a 452 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 1: lot of traditions. It's a very um, very diverse, diverse country, 453 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: and so I mean there's nothing they can do the 454 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,479 Speaker 1: US can do to decide how they should how they 455 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: should live. And the problem is when the US leaves, 456 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 1: the Afghans are going to have to figure out how 457 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,439 Speaker 1: to balance all of these influences amongst themselves. You know, 458 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 1: because you have in the south or in the East, 459 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: very conservative, very conservative Bible societies that you know, their 460 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: way of living. It's it's close to what we imagine 461 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: the Taliban influmence being, you know, women in burker's and 462 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: not going out. And that's something that's native and it's 463 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: not necessarily even a religious thing. That's more a tribal thing, 464 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 1: whereas in cities over decades, You've seen liberal influences come 465 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,679 Speaker 1: and go, and so they're going to have to balance 466 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: that somehow without the US. Uh yeah, yeah, So you know, 467 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: UM and and looking at Afghanistan as as a whole. Um, 468 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: you know, the things have changed obviously several times since 469 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: our first troops hit the ground in two thousand one, 470 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: and one of them was the um the introduction of 471 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: ISIS into the country in the Islamic State. And you know, 472 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,360 Speaker 1: we kind of in the United States here and most 473 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: of the people kind of lump ISIS and al Qaeda 474 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: and the Taliban all into a big cauldron and like 475 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: they're all the same, but they're really not. And you know, 476 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: they're kind of like the interlopers because they've got some 477 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: uh their support from former Taliban members. What's it the 478 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: feeling with the Afghan government and the Taliban for you know, 479 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: for what you can glean from your time there about 480 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: how they feel about ISIS. I mean, I think there's 481 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: a lot of um, there's a lot of confusion and 482 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: uncertainty over what ISIS really means in a essence, UM, 483 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: the links between ISIS headquarters, say in Iraq, Syria, are 484 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: are unclear. I mean there are sort of isolated reports 485 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: of money passing from one weep to the other, certain 486 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: amount of training, um, some maybe a little some ideology, 487 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: but generally there's not a very clear link. And when 488 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: we see One of the troubling things when you're looking 489 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: at the Afghan war is that you see a lot 490 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: of attacks or high profile attacks blamed on ISIS and 491 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: you don't really have any claim from ISIS other than 492 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,719 Speaker 1: you know, a day later ISIS in Syria puts out 493 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: a statement there's no real evidence that ISIS actually had 494 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: a role, uh and so um, so we don't really 495 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: know a lot about about them there. But there wasn't 496 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: asis spokesman. Um. There was a group initially formed out 497 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: of the Pakistani Taliban. The spokesman was killed in the U. 498 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: S drone strike within a month or so of becoming 499 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: the spokesman. And no one's really heard from the Afghan 500 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: groupe since. So there's not really been any reliable journalist 501 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: interviews with them directly, and so we just don't know. 502 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: And one of one of the examples is with the 503 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: recent spate of attacks that you've seen in Carbon. Now, 504 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: I mean, so many different groups have an interest in 505 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: destabilizing carble, making it look like it's chaos. So when 506 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: you're looking at an attack and you're blaming it on ISIS, 507 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: it might well be some disgruntled gun I'm an official, 508 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: or some world or something. I mean, there's never you 509 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: can never really be sure unless you investigate each specific 510 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: attack whether it really was carried out by the person 511 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: who claimed it. And the Afghan government has had an 512 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: interest in playing up ISIS in the country because that 513 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: keeps the Americans interested, and to a certain extent, you know, 514 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: perhaps the Americans have also had an interest in making 515 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: it seem like ISIS is this very defined entity, because 516 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: then it gives you a very defined reason for staying right. 517 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: And that was one of the comments that President Biden 518 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: made recently and why he was like, the counter terrorism 519 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: mission will continue, but it's kind of it's kind of 520 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: a murky thing because who's you know, what missions are 521 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: going to go on there? But we I guess that's 522 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: a topic for a different time. But as a woman, 523 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: how difficult was it working being embedded with the Afghan 524 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: you know commandos? Was was there any pushback on there 525 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: or did they welcome you? I mean, for me, it 526 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: was for me. The reporting that I did was possible 527 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: because I had an excellent Afghan colleague, Habibill, who I 528 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: would do these inbds with. And he was a pastuon guy. 529 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: He looked like a talent, you know, long beard, long hair, 530 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: but he was quite a hippie at heart, and you know, 531 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: he was basically keeping me safe there. He would tell 532 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: me when a situation was good or bad, you know, 533 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: will he'd be able to read the room for me. 534 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: He was able to get access from the Ministry of Defense. 535 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 1: And because you had there was actually quite a bureaucratic 536 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: process to embed with Afghan forces, which you know, because 537 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: they were built in the image of American forces, you'd 538 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: have all these forms to fill out. So he was 539 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: very good at navigating the Ministry of Defense um. And 540 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: so it was possible that way. I mean Afghan commanders, 541 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: Afghan men in general, know, they don't see Western women 542 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: quite like Afghan women. They sort of see them as 543 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: a as a sort of third gender almost um. And 544 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: so you do get access. People will talk to you. 545 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: You know, sometimes they even want to talk to you 546 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: because they're curious and they maybe haven't seen a woman 547 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 1: for months or years, and who knows how long, and 548 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: so so you do. Obviously there are there are other 549 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: risks as a woman, So you don't really want to 550 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: be walking around a commander base by yourself, uh you know, 551 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 1: um having your guide there. The way you described him 552 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: in the book, he seemed like he was and not 553 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: say it threatening, but he would kind of deter anyone 554 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: from taking liberties with you. Well, yeah, I mean I 555 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: don't want it to sound like I don't not appreciative 556 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: of the hospitalities that we received, because you know, a 557 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: lot of the Afghan commandos especially you know, we would 558 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: we would be attached to uh you know, like some 559 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: captain level sort of guy, and they would they would 560 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: really be very hospitable. They would you know, arrangel of 561 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: our meals and take us out on you know, patrols 562 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: and give us the you know, full view of what 563 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: was going on. They were very interesting people. So um, so, 564 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: I mean I think it was he just kind of 565 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: helped me, I guess, uh fit in and he helped 566 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: them unders opened up when he you know, kept me 567 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: out of trouble when I was there, you know, saying well, 568 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: you know, don't go down that hallway or you know, 569 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 1: you know that sort of thing right right now. Did 570 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: you wear the traditional woman's garb over there? Yeah, I 571 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: mean if even when I was with the Afghan, you know, 572 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: embedded with the Afghan soldiers, I always wore anabaya, which 573 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: is like a long black cloak. It's popular and sort 574 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: of Saudi Arabian and which over over my clothes, and 575 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: I would wear an Afghan tunic underneath, uh, and then 576 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: obviously a head scarf if we were going out and 577 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: sort of trying to report from you know, if we 578 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: were going to sort of see an Afghan militia out 579 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: in the middle of nowhere, or or do reporting in 580 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,359 Speaker 1: very remote areas, and I would just I would wear 581 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 1: an Afghan tunic nearby and then buka over it, because 582 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: also you're under robuka, you know, people tend not to 583 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: bother you a notice you. And so that was my 584 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: way of getting around places that were more dangerous. Did 585 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: you ever feel in danger working over there at different times? Oh? 586 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: I mean yeah, there were there were a lot of 587 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: times where where we would we would felt in danger. 588 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: You know, you were only as we we relied a 589 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: lot on local sort of contacts and fixtures, and so 590 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,839 Speaker 1: if you're going somewhere very remote like Kuna, and you're 591 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 1: going in the car and you're driving in a you know, 592 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: in your Toyota Corolla. You know, you're hoping that you 593 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: don't get stopped at a checkpoint or Taliban checkpoint. You know. 594 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 1: We we drive and into a couple of ambushes, you know. 595 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 1: One of them, our car was damaged because we drove 596 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:12,279 Speaker 1: into or rather the insurgents in the in the mountaintops 597 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,320 Speaker 1: open fire down on the road where we were not 598 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: not firing at us, but at a police convoy that 599 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 1: happened to pass us. Um. And so we had like 600 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 1: a flat tire and and stuff from that and and 601 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: broken engines. So we broke down in Sarobi, which is 602 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: a very insecure area, and we obviously had nobody coming together, 603 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 1: so we had to take the three ordered like a 604 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 1: local garage, and I just sat there in my worker 605 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: for hours, you know, hoping that no one would wonder 606 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: who we were. Um. And so, yeah, there were there 607 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 1: were lots of times when when it felt insecure and 608 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,399 Speaker 1: you were really it was really just down to luck. 609 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: Because other journalists over the years that I was there, 610 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: would be doing sort of something similar and and it 611 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,360 Speaker 1: would go wrong. Um. So you know, part of it 612 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: is planning. You try and plan for for every outcome. 613 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,759 Speaker 1: You try and make sure you have the information on 614 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: the road that you're traveling on, and that you know 615 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: your local contacts. You know, whether it's the local provincial 616 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: district governor or whatever, or you know, local journalists or 617 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 1: something helping you. You know that they're reliable and they 618 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: can be trusted not to sort of sell you to 619 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 1: to the enemy, I suppose. And h you know, speaking 620 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: about the the US Special Forces guys in the book, 621 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: was there any pushback on I'd say, from like the 622 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: Special Operations Command for them not to cooperate with it. 623 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:39,720 Speaker 1: I mean, And it was really sort of grassroots UM effort. 624 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: Like when I went to to sort of headquarters to 625 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,279 Speaker 1: ask for interviews with people like General Swindel, they were 626 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: denied um. And so it was more a case of 627 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 1: reaching out to people individually and then they would reach 628 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: out to their public affairs person. And I did have 629 00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: uh an approval from public from the military pub affairs 630 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: which sort of said that um, you know that they 631 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: were supposed to cooperate and help with my research, that 632 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: they supported the publication of the books. I did have 633 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 1: that kind of official stamp. But I didn't get a 634 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: lot of support from headquarters. But I did at the 635 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 1: at the lower level, Um, at the knower level. Yes, 636 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: I mean public affairs guys would be like, yeah, sure, 637 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 1: you know, talk to so and so, and they would 638 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,359 Speaker 1: sit in on the interview and they wouldn't interfere generally. Um. 639 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 1: They were really supportive in that respect. And one of 640 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:33,359 Speaker 1: the another really compelling part of the book you talked 641 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 1: at length above Caleb the special operator that lost both 642 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: of his legs and you know his story going through 643 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: all of his you know, struggles and and travails of 644 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: learning to walk again and and all that. Have you 645 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: been in contact with him since the book's been up? 646 00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:02,760 Speaker 1: And how doing? I mean, he's good. He's he's found 647 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:08,240 Speaker 1: his calling in helping other people. So he's he's teaching archery. 648 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,759 Speaker 1: And he's a really really impressive guy because he's so 649 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: thoughtful and so reflective on on things and he knows, Um, 650 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 1: he has a good way I think of viewing what 651 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: happened to him and uh and sort of coming to 652 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: terms with it. He's got an amazing family. He's got 653 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: two little girls who are amazing UM. And he's very 654 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: you know, and he's very open and so he'll say, 655 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I mean I found it really really 656 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 1: good to work with him, and and we do keep 657 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: in touch. That's great. And his wife seemed like a 658 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 1: very very strong woman, very strong woman, very impressive woman. Yeah. Yeah, 659 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,359 Speaker 1: I don't know how she has she managed. I mean 660 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: I have I've had a baby myself now, and I 661 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 1: don't know how any of the wives managed. Now that 662 00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 1: I'm I'm in a sort of in the in the 663 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: position of pair, and I just can't imagine doing what 664 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: they did. Now. Your your baby is quite young, right, 665 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: you didn't have any children when you were over in Afghanistan? No, 666 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: I did not, um, And so yeah, yeah, I've got 667 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: a six month old baby, so no more for me 668 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 1: for a while. That's the funny age that when they're 669 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 1: they're six to ten months old. I I look back 670 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,800 Speaker 1: on that. My son's now twenty two, so you know, 671 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,320 Speaker 1: I probably am looking through rose colored glasses. But I 672 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,319 Speaker 1: I love that that stretch, you know, from the six 673 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: six months of a year was part of my favorite time. 674 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: I thought, Yeah, it's great, Um, it's it's a wonderful time. 675 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,879 Speaker 1: And it's also you know, it's good to have two 676 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:48,279 Speaker 1: parents in the house because there's no time and so 677 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: I don't know how these how they these women managed, 678 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:55,400 Speaker 1: you know, worrying about their husband's never coming back, or 679 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: dealing with the injuries like Caleb had with you know, 680 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 1: one too small it Tina was pregnant when hutch was 681 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 1: over um in the mission in Quintus. I mean, I 682 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: can't I can't imagine doing what they did, and I 683 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 1: find that so impressive. Yeah, they the women in the book. Again, 684 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 1: that was you know, one of the better products of 685 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: the books because you know, not only are you getting 686 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: the story of the soldiers, you're getting their families back home. 687 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: And you know, the women I thought were really strong 688 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: in this. And your heart goes out to some of 689 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,360 Speaker 1: the guys who who end up getting killed, because you know, 690 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 1: most of the American public we see just the aftermath. 691 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,760 Speaker 1: You might see a picture of a funeral where somebody's 692 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 1: getting a folded flag, but you know there's a lot 693 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: more to that, and the families there. I mean, I 694 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: know that for example, Alexandra McClintock, who's McClintock whose husband 695 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 1: was killed in Margin, I mean I know that she 696 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 1: hasn't she hasn't read the book. She hasn't read I mean, 697 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:05,320 Speaker 1: as I was writing before publication, obviously sent the chapters 698 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:06,880 Speaker 1: over to the people that were in it so that 699 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 1: they had a chance to correct anything that was inaccurate 700 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: or guay in, and she didn't read them because, I mean, 701 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,400 Speaker 1: five years on, it's still such a such an awful, 702 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:20,840 Speaker 1: awful thing to have gone through. Um, you know, and 703 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 1: I think people when they talk about, oh, well, we're 704 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,960 Speaker 1: only losing you know, ten US soldiers a year or twenty, 705 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,279 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, what are we losing them for? 706 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,919 Speaker 1: And do we really consider the impact of the loss 707 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,400 Speaker 1: of just a single soldier really? And that's one of 708 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:39,319 Speaker 1: the things that I wanted to convey um conveying the book, right, 709 00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: and you know, speaking in general terms, is do you 710 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 1: think the journalism is changing the way wars are covered nowadays? 711 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:50,840 Speaker 1: I mean, because we live in that era. You know, 712 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 1: back in World War Two and even in Vietnam, it 713 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:59,240 Speaker 1: was like, you know, so in far in the distance, 714 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,799 Speaker 1: and you'd have to rely on newspapers back in World 715 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,320 Speaker 1: War tour, you know, the radio, and you'd get reports 716 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,759 Speaker 1: there were maybe a day or two old then in 717 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,479 Speaker 1: Vietnam and started coming into our you know, living rooms 718 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: at night. But today, I mean we're seeing stuff. Is 719 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:19,400 Speaker 1: that unfold and is the way it's journalism changing the 720 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,359 Speaker 1: way we look at wars now? I think that it's 721 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,719 Speaker 1: really I think it's more the other way around. Um. 722 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: I think that in early years in Afghanistan and in Iraq, 723 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 1: obviously you had journalists embedding with a range of different 724 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,560 Speaker 1: troops for a length of time that gave them a 725 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,759 Speaker 1: chance to really see or understand what was going on. 726 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 1: Since twenty fifteen, when the Afghan War was, when there 727 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 1: was this effort to put the Afghan War out of 728 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,359 Speaker 1: the public, you know, journalists don't really get to embed 729 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,719 Speaker 1: with US forces and the very few and beds that 730 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 1: are granted are granted only to you know, a couple 731 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,920 Speaker 1: of DC journalists who haven't got a lot of um 732 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 1: uh in depth and experience in Afghanistan, and they don't 733 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 1: get a lot of time to see to spend with 734 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 1: these troops. So you know, you don't really learn a 735 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 1: lot just by being there for two days or so 736 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: three days, and so I think that really makes it 737 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 1: difficult for journalists to really cover what what the war 738 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 1: is like now. Um and yeah, and and so it 739 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 1: has unfortunately sort of faded out of the public's mind. Yeah, 740 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,640 Speaker 1: that's it's It's very true. I mean, you know, we 741 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 1: see it every day here in the States. But you know, 742 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,359 Speaker 1: the book and again to our listeners out there, we're 743 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,319 Speaker 1: talking with Justinati. She wrote the book Um Eagle Down 744 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: the Last Um Special Forces Fighting in the Forever War. 745 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,800 Speaker 1: And and really, I mean, after reading the book, this 746 00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,800 Speaker 1: should be required reading, I think for a leaders and 747 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 1: military war colleges because it shows what can happen, and 748 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,960 Speaker 1: it can happen quite easily when we strip our uh 749 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:14,000 Speaker 1: special operations forces, are anyone involved in that kind of 750 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 1: uh you know, situation of their assets and you know 751 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,879 Speaker 1: we're putting their lives in harm's way. And I can't 752 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,400 Speaker 1: tell you how much I thought I was impressed with 753 00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,440 Speaker 1: your work in this and and uh, I thought it 754 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,759 Speaker 1: was a fantastic book. And like I said, at times 755 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,600 Speaker 1: it was very um uplifting and at other times it 756 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:42,920 Speaker 1: was very uh concerning. I guess, uh In, you know, 757 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,440 Speaker 1: when we see what our guys are going through on 758 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,399 Speaker 1: a daily basis, and I think you've captured that, our 759 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,960 Speaker 1: hats are off to you and we you know, encourage 760 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,120 Speaker 1: all of our readers are all of our listeners. Two, 761 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:03,080 Speaker 1: definitely check out the book. It's available on Amazon dot 762 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:08,200 Speaker 1: com and it's also available I believe, off of your website. Correct, Yeah, 763 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 1: there's a there's a list of sellers from the publisher's website, 764 00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:16,080 Speaker 1: from her chette Um and so pretty much all book 765 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,440 Speaker 1: sellers should be able to get a copy. If you 766 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 1: don't want to go down the Amazon route, great, And yeah, 767 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:24,120 Speaker 1: we don't want to take up too much more of 768 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: your time. I know you have a young baby at 769 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,200 Speaker 1: home and your is your husband a journalist as well? 770 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 1: Absolutely not another journalist. He's in the Foreign service, so 771 00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 1: he's currently handling the baby. Oh well, there you go. 772 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,800 Speaker 1: And that's uh that that is a diplomaticure in itself. 773 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:51,640 Speaker 1: So yes, screaming, I hope, but I can hear him 774 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:57,239 Speaker 1: from here. I won't keep you any longer. Thanks for 775 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,440 Speaker 1: joining us this evening on your time and morning on 776 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,640 Speaker 1: our time. But we really appreciate your inside you're taking 777 00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:08,440 Speaker 1: the time to talk with us here at Software Radio. Again, 778 00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,440 Speaker 1: we definitely encourage our readers and our listeners out there 779 00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:15,279 Speaker 1: to check out the book. It's well worth it. But 780 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:21,600 Speaker 1: before we go, oh, you're quite welcome anytime. And is 781 00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: there anything before we go? Is there anything on the 782 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:29,439 Speaker 1: agenda for you? You're working on something new? No, I'm 783 00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,440 Speaker 1: going back to my job covering national security at the 784 00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:36,480 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal. Um, starting in March, and um, we'll see, 785 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:40,200 Speaker 1: we'll go from there. Oh, excellent. So that means you'll 786 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:44,279 Speaker 1: be probably back in the States by then, Yeah, yeah, 787 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:49,200 Speaker 1: heading back next week. Excellent. Well, I know it must 788 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:52,040 Speaker 1: be tough leaving Africa because it's such a beautiful place. 789 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 1: But yeah, we wish you all the best in that. 790 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,320 Speaker 1: And again, thank you for taking the time with us today. 791 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,520 Speaker 1: Before Okay, before we go, I just wanted to read 792 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,480 Speaker 1: a quick note from our editors here. If you want 793 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,120 Speaker 1: to get soft rep on your phone, download our free 794 00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,200 Speaker 1: mobile app and get easy access to our articles, podcast 795 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,359 Speaker 1: and gar reviews, all perfectly formatted to your device. Please 796 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:19,759 Speaker 1: subscribe to softwap dot com to get access to all 797 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:23,440 Speaker 1: our library of e books and our exclusive team room content, 798 00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:30,239 Speaker 1: uh forums and available on all your Apple and Android devices. Jess, 799 00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 1: thanks again for taking the time with us today. We 800 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:36,160 Speaker 1: really appreciate it, and all the best to you in 801 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,840 Speaker 1: the future. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. 802 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,279 Speaker 1: It was our pleasure. All right, that's it for us 803 00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,160 Speaker 1: here at soft Rep Radio. We'll be back with another 804 00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:48,480 Speaker 1: podcast real soon. Until then, don't turn that dial. SOFTWAP 805 00:47:48,560 --> 00:48:07,800 Speaker 1: Radio on time on Target you've been listening to Self 806 00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:09,400 Speaker 1: Red Radio m