WEBVTT - Bitcoin: The Future of Censorship-Resistant Data Storage 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.320 Hello, and welcome back to another episode of the Mark 0:00:02.360 --> 0:00:05.080 mass Show, where we talk about the decentralized revolution. The 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:08.320 way the world is of course changing right before very eyes, 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:11.959 going from a world of centralization, central planning, central control, 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:14.240 to a world of decentralization as we look at it 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:18.120 through the lens of politics, finance, and technology. It's always 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:20.720 technology that changes the world more than anything, and we 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:24.439 have a world changing technology in Bitcoin. Now. I like 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:28.360 to bring to you some stories, some education, some late 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:30.520 breaking news, and of course some guests so you can 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:32.600 hear from people other than me, and I have a 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:35.400 returning guest in the studio with me today, Mark Goodwin. 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:40.440 He is the director of print editorial at The Bitcoin Magazine. 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:44.960 You can find him on Twitter at Mark Goodwin Underscore, 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:47.760 I n and anyway, Mark, thanks so much for coming 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:48.720 back on today and talk to me. 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:52.400 Yeah, Mark, thanks for having me on. Man, great, great 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:55.440 to be back. Lots going on. I know we last 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:57.240 time we got together, we talked about a lot of 0:00:57.240 --> 0:00:59.680 the things where we've witnessed in the last few weeks, 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:04.760 you know, bank failures, people realizing duration risk, ordinals exploding. 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:07.160 So yeah, it's great to be back and yeah, thanks 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:07.840 so much for having me. 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:11.880 Yeah, I know, last time we were on was kind 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:15.560 of right when this whole Bitcoin ordinals thing started, and 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:18.000 we were kind of like hypothecating a little bit of 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:21.039 like what potentially could happen for everybody just paying, you know, 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:24.160 tune in that maybe doesn't understand what that is. Bitcoin ordinals. 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:27.679 It's kind of like this weird word. It's basically a 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.720 technological advancement, if you will, something new that's being done 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:34.320 on the bitcoin blockchain for you know, ease of ease 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:37.960 of terms. Basically ordinals has been away. The main use 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:39.920 case so far has been kind of putting these n 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:41.560 f t s most of you have heard of n 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:43.759 f t s by by now, meme coins, things like that, 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:46.680 and now they're putting them onto the bitcoin blockchain as 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:49.360 opposed to on you know, other blockchains, and so that 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:51.400 seems to be kind of the main use case for 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:55.600 that right now, and lately, like like this week, it's 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:59.880 been causing a lot of uproar in the bitcoin space 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:03.200 for a bunch of reasons. So kind of maybe break down, 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.160 you know, kind of what they are and maybe what 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:08.480 some of the potential use cases of them are for 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:09.760 right now for us Mark. 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:14.240 Yeah, absolutely, So, yeah, it was some tooling made by 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:17.600 a bitcoin dev in San Francis in the Bay Area, 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:22.320 Casey Rotemor and kind of the the general idea that 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:25.600 you know, at its core is it allows you to 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:30.080 store arbitrary data into financial transactions in a way that 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:34.320 is as as least harmful as possible to the to 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.960 the bitcoin. Why do you say arbitrary, I say arbitrary. 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:41.080 It's maybe not the best word, but it's kind of 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:43.960 the word d jore. But I mean arbitrary in the 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:48.200 sense that it's not innately a financial transaction, or rather 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:53.200 that the data that's inscribed is not directly uh you know, 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:56.680 it's not input or signature data relating to an actual 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:01.000 financial exchange. You're actually putting in you know, a file. Uh, 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:03.800 you know, all bitcoin transactions really are just you know, 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:07.600 you know, they're they're just bites, and that's how transaction 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:12.120 fees are actually calculated. And so I say arbitrary data 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:16.400 because it's, uh, you know, it's an alternative use case 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:19.200 to strictly using bitcoin as a database for just a 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:23.239 financial exchange. So, you know, the first use cases we're seeing, 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:25.320 you know, it's a little bit of kind of a 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:30.560 rehash of some of the speculatory commodity uh, you know 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:34.720 stuff we've seen in the NFT space extended, you know, 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:38.040 with JPEGs and movie files and and things like that. 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:39.960 And now we're kind of starting to see where a 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:44.080 couple months away from you know, this this this tooling 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:46.119 being launched, and now we're kind of starting to see 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:48.760 people grock some of the things we talked about a 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:51.800 little while ago actually, like some of these alternative use cases, 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:55.280 like you know, uh, you know data that you want preserved, 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:59.360 whether that's uh, the you know, King James Bible, whether 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:03.160 that's an t L three D printed gun file, whether 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:07.240 that's a Jason pointer for some you know, token mechanism 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:09.920 that people are building. So we're seeing all these kind 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:10.880 of new use they have. 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:12.800 They put a King James Bible on there. 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:17.080 Yeah they have that fits yeah yeah, right. Yeah. So 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:21.679 there's there's obviously technical limitations to how much arbitrary data 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:24.600 you can put in, and obviously the biggest limit being 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:29.000 this four megabyte block weight that was put in with 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:34.240 Seguet and uh, you know, in ordinals inscriptions use that 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:41.599 segregated witness block extension to too very cheaply and efficiently. 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:45.920 It's very low validation costs for nodes, and you can 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:48.839 throw in uh, you know, up to you know, just 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:54.320 under four megabytes into a block and break it. 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:57.320 Into multiple blocks too potentially. Right. So absolutely, if it 0:04:57.320 --> 0:04:59.120 was the King James Bible that didn't fit and maybe 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:00.680 it takes two or three blocks or something like. 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:03.799 That, absolutely, one hundred percent. Yeah, they can self reference 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:07.719 each other and you could absolutely inscribe. I believe. Actually, 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:09.719 you're totally right. I think the Bible was done over 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:15.400 four blocks. Yeah, and not full blocks either, but for transactions. 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:18.040 Yeah, when you think about it, you know, throughout history, 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:19.640 something I've been pounded the table on last week. I 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:20.880 did a whole segment on it, and I kind of 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:24.760 talked about today as well, but I was I picked 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:27.960 it up. I think with Matt Tayibe, maybe its Michael Sellenberger, 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:32.640 it's the censorship industrial complex and how really it's just 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:35.880 massive censorship, and it's censorship on our movement, censorship on 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:39.680 our communication, censorship on our transactions, but as censorship of everything, 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:43.720 and they need that to maintain control. And censorship of 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:48.839 communication and materials has been part of every power that bed, 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:52.159 you know, going back through history, whether that's the Roman Empire, 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:54.839 you know, the pros of Reformation, the fifteen hundreds, et cetera. 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:57.520 And so there's always information that they're going to try 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:00.840 to destroy. There was that book Aaron Height four fifty 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:02.719 one where they went and just you know, burned up 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:07.160 all the books, right, and so trying to preserve history, 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.560 trying to preserve you know, books. The Bible has been 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:13.320 one of those books that's been under attack, you know, 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:16.160 since the beginning, and so there's there's a there's a 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:18.760 thousands of years of history that show why it would 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:22.760 be important to have a way to do that. And 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:25.479 what I like about it is like, you know, the 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:28.880 printing press obviously changed the way that you could print Bibles. 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:31.680 Used to do it by hand, word by word, but 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.000 then you could print them in mass. And you know, 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:36.840 for decades there's been groups that you know, smuggle them 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:39.479 in and out of countries and things like that, but 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:43.280 now it can be sent digitally anywhere in the world, right, 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:45.599 And so kind of going back to money, and really 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:48.400 for me, it's something I've been kind of talking about 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:50.680 with the bitcoin space for a long time, where the 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:53.520 first killer app is money. But if we think about 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:58.160 money as communication or money as stored value. Well, then 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:00.919 it starts to expand what we consider value in communication, 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:05.320 and then it allows us to share value, share communication 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:09.080 instantly and some super resistant. It's pretty big other use cases. 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:11.000 I think it was Michael Sailor was talking about this week, 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:15.000 like potentially like a will. Yeah, so like if I 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:16.920 have a living will. You know, we've all seen the 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:19.120 movies where you know, someone from my family breaks into 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:21.520 office and changes my will or something like that, Like 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:23.240 that could be a pretty big deal. I mean, there's 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:25.280 who knows how many use cases there are for stuff 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:25.440 like this. 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:31.760 Yeah, Data durability and immutability is I mean a priceless 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:34.440 you know asset. Really, I mean the thing that we 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:37.560 really love about bitcoin as a technological tool, it allowed 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:41.000 us to move money over time and space with you know, 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:45.400 unbelievable efficiency. What what are we really moving across time 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:49.280 and space? It's information, durable information that you know, we 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:53.000 can sign and have property rights for. And applying that 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:57.680 to again quote unquote arbitrary data. You know, I see 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:00.280 that as sort of this just it's almost it's not 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:03.080 even an alternative use case in the sense that it is. 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:07.119 It's really just utilizing bitcoin as a as an open 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:10.960 ledger and a database with a dynamic block market. You know, 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:14.640 you're buying block space anytime you want to make a transaction. 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:18.120 That's how you get the censorship resistant quality. There's an 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:21.760 auction for block space every ten minutes and you know, 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:24.000 pay the fee, get in the block And that's kind 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:26.200 of always what it's been. And now people are kind 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:29.040 of seeing, oh, there's there's there's more to it than this. 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:32.600 And that's not to say that obviously, you know, the 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:36.440 financial monetary revolution that is bitcoin is the most important thing, 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:40.720 but you know it's a truth revolution and and and 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:45.720 downstream of truth, you know, it can be arbitrary data storage. 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:48.000 Yeah, yeah, And again you just kind of to kind 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:51.920 of go and expand like what is money? Well, money's communication, 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:55.080 Money is value, Okay, it's a transfer of value. Okay, 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:57.200 well then what is value? And so then all of 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.440 these things sort of fit into that, right, and so 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.719 kind of have to start thinking bigger. That's kind of 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:03.840 the way that I look at it. But I know 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:06.240 there's some dangers that we've been talking about, you know, 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:10.680 congestion on the blockchain, high fees. You know, now there's 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.920 talks of you know, changing the code, I mean all 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.199 types of stuff like that. You're listening to the Mark 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:18.920 Mass Show talking about the decentralized Revolution. I'll be back 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:20.679 with more in a minute. Don't go away, all right, 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:22.360 welcome back if you're just tune in. You were listening 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:25.240 to the Mark Mass Show. I'm sitting down with Mark Goodwin. 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:28.040 He's the director of print editorial Bitcoin magazine, and we're 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:31.600 talking about big changes that are happening on the bitcoin 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:34.760 blockchain and really to the crypto space overall, we would say, 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:37.520 because it's really disrupting the entire crypto space. You know, 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:41.680 we saw maybe the biggest use case for the crypto space, 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:43.679 you know, ethereum, et cetera, over the last year has 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:47.880 been in fts and meme coins, and now they're coming 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:52.480 over to Bitcoin, which I think is pretty interesting. Good 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:54.600 and there's good and bad. Like everything, there's trade offs, right, 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:57.200 and so we were talking about before the break sort 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:00.400 of what they're really buying is just space on the 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:03.960 block right on the blockchain, and so now we're seeing 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:07.480 congestion on the blockchain. All these these NFTs are buying 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:09.320 up all the space, and then when it buys up 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:12.040 all the space, it starts to push up the feast 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.959 and now it's more expensive to send bitcoin things like that, 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:21.240 and we're starting to see revision of you know, the 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:26.000 twenty seventeen block size wars, and people are saying we 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:28.160 need to make big we need to make the blocks 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:31.880 bigger to fix this. I think it's what is that 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:33.520 saying to those who don't know history are bound to 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:35.080 repeat it. And I think people should just go back 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:36.640 and read that book. I mean, what's your take on 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:39.120 this whole block congestion, high fee situation. 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:42.480 Totally? Well, I think there's a lot to talk about, 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:44.640 and I think it has a lot of implications for 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.720 the success and future of bitcoin. And these are some 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:51.559 realities that I think we need to acknowledge. I think 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:54.080 this is kind of the best, this kind of thee 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:56.600 mania we're going through, or I would say, maybe just 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.240 went through with this very big public mint that bought 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:04.280 up you know, megabytes and megabytes of block space. It's 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:07.400 a bit of a stress test for what bitcoin is 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.800 going to look like when we have five billion people, 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:13.920 you know, trying to get in block space, you know, 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:18.080 every ten minutes. The reality of bitcoin at a mass 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:22.320 adoption level is very high. Fees, fees that are priced 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:28.200 in Satoshi's the atomic unit of bitcoin. And so yeah, 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:31.520 I think we're seeing you know, kind of the first 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:35.440 you know, in the modern era with kind of you know, 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:40.080 layer twos a bit more established than they were, say 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:42.600 in twenty seventeen, kind of the last time we saw 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:48.520 block subsidy meet the block reward, or rather fees meeting 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:50.800 the subsidy. So just to break that down a little bit, 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.120 when a minor wins a block, they of course get 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:58.040 the subsidy, which is the you know, the the the 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:01.480 issuance of new bitcoin, which is a set amount and 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:03.600 it has every four years, so right now we're six 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:05.600 and a quarter. And then there's of course the fees 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:08.640 that you get from the financial transactions that have paid 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:10.640 to get in the block. And so this is the 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:14.320 first time since twenty seventeen where we've actually seen the 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:19.160 fee share of the total block award be higher than 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:21.160 the subsidy. And we saw that a couple of days ago, 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:25.640 and that is a reality that's going to have to happen. 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:28.280 You know, we have a haning a year away now, 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:32.160 and we have thirty i think maybe twenty nine havings 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:35.960 left after that and in which case, in around twenty 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:38.400 one forty, there will be no issuance at all and 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.160 it will be solely determined on if there is bitcoin 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:45.480 user activity sustaining the miners securing the network, and that's 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.040 going to rely on fees being high. 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:50.000 So this is kind of a nice reason why high 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:50.840 fees is a good thing. 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.880 Absolutely, I think, uh, there's a lot of talk in 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:58.800 kind of the alt coin community, you know, chirping about bitcoin, 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.000 and when fees are really high, they go, okay, look, 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:03.840 you can't scale. Fees are high, I can't buy coffee. 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:06.000 And when fees are low, they say, oh, you have 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:09.160 no security budget, you need tail emissions, and it's just 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:11.520 it's ridiculous. It's like, no, this is what bitcoin is 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:14.199 going to have to mature into, and there's going to 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:17.520 be humongous demand, and there's some mathematical realities to the 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:21.000 limitations of that demand. And you know, we can't simply 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:25.280 have eight billion people holding their own utxo and transacting 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:27.520 for all their day to day transactions on the main chain. 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:31.400 It just can't happen. So we got lightning. Lightning Also, 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:35.920 of course, you know, it requires on chain touches when 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.040 you open and close a channel. You know, there was 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:40.920 a lot of worry of people that had opened up 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:44.160 Lightning channels, you know four years ago or three years ago, 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:47.079 two years ago, when the fees were very low, and 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:50.720 part of the trustlessness of these hashtime law contracts that 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:55.960 uphold the trustlessness of lightning, you know, you set your 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:58.720 fees for the force closes at the time of open 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:02.560 and some clients weren't ready to do replaced by fee 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:04.880 to be able to actually force close your channel in 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:07.960 a high fee environment. Is that trust list if you 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:09.959 can't close to the main chain, right, So there's a 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:12.000 lot of stuff we have to look at and just 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.079 be honest about scaling and where we're going to go. 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:17.680 And I think this is a great stress test because 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:21.320 it's going to subside, you know, the mania will will die. 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:23.440 And I think a lot of people look at this 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:26.200 as an attack of some sort, and it's like, well, 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:29.800 remember this is bitcoin. Thanks thanks for paying our miners 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:33.320 and wasting all of your bitcoin, you know, doing this 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:36.560 quote unquote spam attack. If that's what this is. You've 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:39.480 sustained the market and fed our miners. Thank you. Yeah, 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:41.280 and now we get to learn from it. That's really 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:41.960 how I look at it. 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:44.440 Yeah, I've been kind of looking at the same way. 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:46.480 And just so for everybody that's kind of catching up 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:47.960 on this, if it's a little bit over your head, 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:50.400 you know, you can send bitcoin on the main blockchain, 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:53.840 which is final settlement, and now it's congested, so it's 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:55.280 costing me a little bit more money, but you can 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.760 move it over Lightning for almost instant and free. And 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:01.160 so if you want to buy the cough, send it 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:04.080 over Lightning. Now people say, but it's centralized, Well, it's 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:06.040 more centralized, but for a cup of coffee, what do 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:09.160 I care? If I'm going to buy a house, I mean, 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:11.080 what's the big deal. It's cheaper than a wire transfer, 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:12.480 So I'll just do it that way. So you can 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:16.240 choose what your fee level is, how much security you want, 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:18.360 and so that's great. I think I think more security 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.440 is better. I'd also say some of this potential attack 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:23.920 seems like there's some credibility there, because it looks like 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:25.360 a lot of the stuff that's being posted on there 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:28.360 is just garbage, and so potentially it is. But to 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:30.280 your point, well, they're going to run out of money, 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:33.960 and thanks for pain. Pain for more security, which is interesting. 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:36.600 But one thing I saw that to me seems a 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:41.480 little bit concerning is Luke deschar or however you pronounce 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:44.920 his last name, that's year. I mean, he's been a 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.360 bigcin core developer, you know, for a long time, for 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:50.440 over a decade, and you know, he obviously hates ordinals, 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:54.760 and now he's talking about how we could create another 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.960 software update to stop them by treating them as spam 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.000 that would filter out you know, tap fruit transactions that 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:04.840 have ordinals in it. And I am already I thought, 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:06.440 I think maybe we talked about this on the last show, 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:09.040 was like, you know, do we need to be more 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:12.040 thoughtful about changing the bitcoin blockchain because now we have 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:15.440 unintended consequences and now it's like, what are we gonna do. 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:17.640 We're gonna have this knee jerk reaction. We're constantly trying 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.560 to like change chain change, and I think that's a 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:22.520 dangerous situation to get in. I don't know what your 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:23.400 opinion is on that. 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:26.040 Yeah, totally. I mean I think there's two big things 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:27.920 that are the first one being one of the most 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:31.440 important bitcoin developers, who was essential in figuring out how 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:34.840 to do segue as a softwork, hates a humongous amount 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:37.880 of the activity on bitcoin right now, and yet is 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:40.200 actually pretty powerless to being able to do anything to 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:43.600 stop it, which is a beauty of bitcoin, a sensorless, 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:48.760 censorship resistant public good. And I respect Luke's opinion. I 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:52.000 disagree in some ways. I mean, you know, what does 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.920 that matter? But I think so, I think that that's 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:58.240 really important. And then as regards to the in regards 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:01.320 to the knee jerk reaction stuff, I think we should 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:04.480 be having a knee jerk reaction to the realities of 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:06.720 what we just went through in a high fee environment. 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:09.639 And if we're going to look at a change to bitcoin, 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:12.160 which I think inevitable, I mean, first off, we have 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:15.919 to literally fork just to fix the overflow bug. We 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:17.800 have a lot of time to deal with that. There's 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:21.480 just a little time stamping overflow bug that's very easy fixed. 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:23.399 But we do need to fork to fix it. So 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:25.879 there is an inevitability of that. But I think we 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:27.679 got to look at the realities of what we just 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.360 went through with as a fee market, make sure we're 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:33.480 ready to really scale to layer two and beyond. You know, 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:37.359 we're gonna need financial services to service eight billion people, 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:41.000 five billion people one billion people. Yeah, so I do 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:45.160 hesitate and and and want you know, those to really 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:47.720 think about this, and yeah, let's not move too fast 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:50.200 and break stuff. There's a reason why we did segue. 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:52.800 We did tap root, and we have the discount witness 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:56.119 and we should you know, remember that and learn from 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:57.200 the high fees and got it. 0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:58.639 I gotta I gotta cut you off there because I 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:00.400 gotta take a quick break. If here's just two listen 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:02.280 to the Mark Mass Show sitting down with Mark Goodwin. 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:04.119 We're back with more in a minute. Don't go away, 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:05.840 we got more to coming, all right. If you just 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:07.560 tune in your listening to the Mark Mass Show. I'm 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:09.760 sitting down with Mark Goodwin. He's the director of print 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:13.520 editorial at Bitcoin Magazine, and we're talking about the changes 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:15.720 that have been going on on the bitcoin blockchain space 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:18.920 and the crypto space overall. This week, it's been a 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:20.840 lot of noise and so we were just talking about that. 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:23.560 If you're just tune in, you know you were talking 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:25.520 about right before I had to cut you off, we 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:28.280 had that commercial break. But how you know, it's a 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:30.600 good test. It's a stress test, and we grow through stress. 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:32.560 We need stress because that shows us where we need 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:35.800 to grow, it helps us grow, and so from that perspective, 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:40.080 I think it's a good thing. I'm curious, do you think. 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:42.800 I mean, I'm a free market guy, so I think 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.840 the free market sort of figures this thing out. It 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:49.040 seems like if and again we kind of I said earlier, 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:51.000 you know, looking at some of these this stuff that's 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:52.840 been put on there, it does look like it's spam. 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:55.040 But even if it's not spam, even if it's a 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:59.639 legitimate jpeg or whatever, don't you think at some point, 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:02.160 I mean, the market takes care of that, where like, hey, 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:04.280 this is too slow and it's too expensive, let's just 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:06.960 go to BSV, you know, or something like that. Let's 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:08.600 just go to where the big blocks already are. And 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:10.640 so at some point the market sort of starts pricing 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.159 that out. I would think monetary transactions are always going 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:15.240 to be willing to pay more than a jpeg would pay. 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:19.879 Yeah, And I actually think that's you know, kind of 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:21.760 to the last the last segment there where we were 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:24.679 talking about things we could actually do to limit spam. 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:26.879 You know, one of the things we could do, you know, 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:29.040 or really the only thing we could do is make 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:33.439 it more expensive. You know, people always had the ability 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:36.719 to put arbitrary data into bitcoin, So the restrictions that 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:40.160 we would we would put in would really just increase 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:44.480 the cost for the user to imbue data, but probably 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:47.840 only by a factor of two or four, just depending 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.360 on the limitations of the protocol. What you can actually 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:53.480 uh you know, make make the block spase more expensive 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:56.679 the market if that's enough to you know, to to 0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:00.000 stop these transactions. The market is going to two act 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:03.159 four x, ten x one hundred x and fees uh 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:05.520 you know, any time there's that there there's sort of 0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:09.600 this this demand uh you know explosion. So the market 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:13.880 is is already going to be uh pricing these JPEGs out. 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:17.600 And you're exactly right about the financial transactions versus this 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:20.920 this these jpeg or this arbitrary data, is that they 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:24.200 take advantage of this segue discount, and so they're priced 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:27.760