WEBVTT - What do Alameda, FTX, and Sam Bankman-Fried Have in Common?

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Crypto Daily Bloomberg I heard podcast and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for Bloomberg News.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Tuesday, September twenty seven. I'm Anna, a senior crypto

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<v Speaker 1>editor for Bloomberg News. In today for Stacy Marie Ishmael.

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<v Speaker 1>You may have heard of Cryptocurrency Exchange f TX, and

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<v Speaker 1>you may have heard of its CEO and founder, Sam

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<v Speaker 1>Bankman Freed. But have you heard of Alameda Research. No,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not a Silicon Valley robotics lab. It's one of

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<v Speaker 1>the largest and most influential cryptocurrency trading firms in the world.

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<v Speaker 1>Alameda was founded by Sam Bankmin Freed, or SPF as

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<v Speaker 1>he's known. The trading firm operates out of the Bahamas,

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<v Speaker 1>along with the rest of the SPF empire. With a

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<v Speaker 1>modest team of only thirty employees, Alameda pocketed over one

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<v Speaker 1>billion dollars in profit in the last year. The firm

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<v Speaker 1>and its employees have, for the most part, preferred not

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<v Speaker 1>to draw too much attention. In recent months, though, it's

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<v Speaker 1>gotten harder for Alameda to fly under the radar, as

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<v Speaker 1>the collapse of crypto has revealed a tangle of connections

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<v Speaker 1>between Alameda FTX and the broader virtual currency markets. As

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<v Speaker 1>Alameda's influence, spreads and connections emerged, so have concerns over

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<v Speaker 1>potential conflicts of interest. Bloomberg reporter Hannah Miller joins me, Now,

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<v Speaker 1>these are two companies founded by the same person and

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<v Speaker 1>at that point managed in part by the same person.

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<v Speaker 1>As we attempt to unentangle these connections, Hi, Hannah, Hianna,

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<v Speaker 1>how's it going. So let's set the scene. First of all,

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<v Speaker 1>what is Alameda Research and what do they do well?

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<v Speaker 1>Alameda Research, You know, the name sounds more like some

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<v Speaker 1>Silicon Valley startup dedicated to robotics or something like that,

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit of a mysterious name, but it is

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<v Speaker 1>actually a quantitative trading firm that specializes in crypto, and

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<v Speaker 1>it purposefully chose that name to kind of fly under

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<v Speaker 1>the radar, you know, be something a little mysterious. And uh,

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<v Speaker 1>they've actually taken the crypto world by storm. So where

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<v Speaker 1>are they based and how have they grown into such

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<v Speaker 1>a big and prominent player in in crypto? What's their history?

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<v Speaker 1>They're currently based on the Bahamas. They were founded in California,

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<v Speaker 1>in Berkeley, then moved over to Hong Kong and then

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<v Speaker 1>went to the Bahamas to establish a new headquarters. And

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<v Speaker 1>they are of the top crypto native market makers in

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<v Speaker 1>the industry. Uh, they're comparable to I would say, Jump Crypto,

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<v Speaker 1>Winter Mute, if you guys know those names. And they're

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<v Speaker 1>really just an incredible player, especially considering that they have

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<v Speaker 1>a very small team of only thirty people. His research

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<v Speaker 1>among the things that they do. Research is among the

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<v Speaker 1>things that they do, but a lot of that research

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<v Speaker 1>has kept internally. It's not published in reports or things

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<v Speaker 1>like that. But basically they do conduct research on the

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<v Speaker 1>crypto market in order to develop algorithms that help them

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<v Speaker 1>trade more effectively. So I guess it's worth telling our listeners,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, who might not be familiar that that they're

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<v Speaker 1>they're not like a fund. They trade their own money

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<v Speaker 1>like they're prop trading firm, right exactly, and they do

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<v Speaker 1>some other things to like venture investing, though that has

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<v Speaker 1>recently changed. Um And they are also known for being

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<v Speaker 1>founded by Sam bank and Freed, one of the biggest

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<v Speaker 1>names in digital assets. Five years same bankman went Free

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<v Speaker 1>and went from buying his first big cooin to becoming

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<v Speaker 1>a multibillionaire. The ft X founder is now worth an

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<v Speaker 1>estimated eleven billion dollars. It is just fascinating to see, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, just how ambitious and seemingly successful as WEF

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<v Speaker 1>has seemed to be. They called the JP Morgan of crypto, right,

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<v Speaker 1>the Michael Jordan of crypto if you will, Uh, Sam, So,

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<v Speaker 1>what kind of relationship do Alameda and FTX have. It's

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<v Speaker 1>an interesting relationship. You know, they are in very close

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<v Speaker 1>proximity with each other. They're both based on the same

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<v Speaker 1>corporate campus in the Bahamas, in separate buildings, and the

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<v Speaker 1>employees also have close relationships. Sam and has has worked

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<v Speaker 1>very closely with Alameda's CEO, Caroline Ellison, and they've actually,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, we've had Alameda employees and FTX employees lived

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<v Speaker 1>together at one point in time. So what is Sam's

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<v Speaker 1>role now with Alameda because he was once the seal. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>Sam step back from Alameda in October. He named two

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<v Speaker 1>co CEOs, Caroline Ellison and Sam Tropuco. Sam Tropuco recently

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<v Speaker 1>stepped down as co CEO of Alameda, so Caroline now

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<v Speaker 1>has soul control of the company, but Sam bankman Fried

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<v Speaker 1>is likely still a majority owner. Of the firm. So,

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<v Speaker 1>how has Alameda's relationship to fd X changed in the

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<v Speaker 1>sense like it's business ties, right, How is that evolved?

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<v Speaker 1>What does it do on fd X? Now? Yeah, so

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<v Speaker 1>Alameda was founded before f t X. When ft X

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<v Speaker 1>was trying to get off the ground as a crypto exchange,

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<v Speaker 1>they needed a market maker and they had Alameda be

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<v Speaker 1>the main market maker on ft X, which is pretty

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<v Speaker 1>interest staying because you wouldn't necessarily see that kind of

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<v Speaker 1>relationship in traditional finance. These are two companies founded by

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<v Speaker 1>the same person and at that point managed in part

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<v Speaker 1>by the same person. But since then Alameda has dropped down.

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<v Speaker 1>It is no longer the top market maker on ft

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<v Speaker 1>X according to both Bank then Freed and Ellison, and

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<v Speaker 1>it still does market making on ft X. It's actually

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<v Speaker 1>one of the top depositor of stable coins on the

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<v Speaker 1>platform according to some data analytics that we collected on

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<v Speaker 1>writing the story. So why have there been concerns about

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<v Speaker 1>potential conflicts of interest? And obviously, you know, we want

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<v Speaker 1>to be clear that we're saying potential and concerns and

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<v Speaker 1>there's no evidence that there is any direct conflict that

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<v Speaker 1>has arisen or any any wrongdoing but you know, why

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<v Speaker 1>have people why are people in the market discussing this,

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<v Speaker 1>and what have they told you? I guess yeah, market

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<v Speaker 1>watchers are concerned about the potential for Alameda to get

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<v Speaker 1>preferential treatment on ftx UM. But when talking to Ellison

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<v Speaker 1>and talking to Bank and Freed, you know, they said

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<v Speaker 1>that they treat Alameda the same way as they would

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<v Speaker 1>any other market maker, that there's no you know, special

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<v Speaker 1>preference for Alameda. When talking to bank men, Freed and

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<v Speaker 1>Ellison both emphasized that there are clear barriers between the

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<v Speaker 1>two companies. Uh, they have separate offices even though they're

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<v Speaker 1>on the same campus, and there are corporate policies in

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<v Speaker 1>place to prevent employees from one company from sharing trading

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<v Speaker 1>or customer information with employees of the other. So they

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<v Speaker 1>have taken steps to sort of silo off the two

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<v Speaker 1>companies from each other. Alameda is less of a known

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<v Speaker 1>name compared to ft X, which is, you know, a

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<v Speaker 1>retail trading platform, as you said, and they're they're advertising

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<v Speaker 1>is everywhere. They have billboards. They had an ad on

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<v Speaker 1>the Super Bowl. But you know, Alamida has been not

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<v Speaker 1>in the shadows, but has been less prominent before, which

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<v Speaker 1>is kind of typical for a market maker, right, you

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<v Speaker 1>have that in financial market makers are big, but they

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<v Speaker 1>don't really do pr do advertising because in a way

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<v Speaker 1>they don't need to because they're trading their own money,

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<v Speaker 1>so they need don't need to attract investment from outside. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>So why have they become more prominent recently? Like how

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<v Speaker 1>have they emerged and like how have their connections emerged

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<v Speaker 1>more in this particular moment in crypto? Yeah, well, their founder,

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<v Speaker 1>Sam bankman Fried has just really gained prominence within the

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<v Speaker 1>past year or so, both within crypto and within chech

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<v Speaker 1>and finance more broadly. You know, he's appearing in Vogue

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<v Speaker 1>ads with Gazelle bunch In, he is doing interviews, he's

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<v Speaker 1>testifying before Congress a crypto regulations. He is pretty much everywhere.

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<v Speaker 1>When you look at crypto, so Alameda, you know, his baby,

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<v Speaker 1>his first company, UH is pretty interesting to look at,

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<v Speaker 1>and they're they're becoming a more prominent player. They had

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<v Speaker 1>one billion dollars in profit last year. And then it's

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<v Speaker 1>interesting to Caroline Ellison is very much a different kind

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<v Speaker 1>of leader and Sam bankman Fried Uh bank Man Freed

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<v Speaker 1>is always putting himself out there, super active on crypto

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<v Speaker 1>Twitter again doing interviews all the time. Ellison is a

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<v Speaker 1>bit more mysterious. She doesn't have as much of a

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<v Speaker 1>social media presence. Uh, you know, she's starting to have,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess a more external facing role with Alameda now

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<v Speaker 1>that San Trabuco has left the company. We'll be right

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<v Speaker 1>back with Bloomberg reporter Hannah Miller. More pain in the

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<v Speaker 1>world of crypto Voyager digital files for chapter eleven bankruptcy

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<v Speaker 1>protection just days after the broker suspended withdrawals on the

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<v Speaker 1>plant and also sort of broke Whige firm. What does

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<v Speaker 1>it mean that they're falling from bankruptcy protection? So another

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<v Speaker 1>thing that has happened in this Crypto winter has been bankruptcies, right,

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<v Speaker 1>And what role have UM, Alameda, SPF, and FTX played

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<v Speaker 1>in this and how are those roles somewhat interconnected at times? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>Bakman Fried has been referred to as a bailout king

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<v Speaker 1>cryptos JP Morgan. He's really stepped in and been the

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<v Speaker 1>architect of various bailouts that have helped struggling platforms affected

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<v Speaker 1>by crypto Winter. We spoke to him about the Voyager

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<v Speaker 1>deal UM where they put in an emergency credit line

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<v Speaker 1>to this struggling crypto lending platform. It ended up not

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<v Speaker 1>being enough to help Voyager. The company did still file

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<v Speaker 1>for bankruptcy and now they're you know, different companies, including

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<v Speaker 1>f t X and Alameda in a joint venture, are

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<v Speaker 1>bidding to buy Voyagers assets, and it's actually gotten pretty

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<v Speaker 1>contentious between different parties, with Voyager calling Alameda and f

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<v Speaker 1>t X is offer a low ball bid. So one

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<v Speaker 1>of the things you mentioned was how there are differences

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<v Speaker 1>between you know, crypto markets and traditional markets as usual.

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<v Speaker 1>How are these firms regulated and how is it different

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<v Speaker 1>from traditional finance. The crypto regulatory landscape is constantly changing.

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<v Speaker 1>We still don't know which regulator is going to be

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<v Speaker 1>primarily in charge of digital assets. The SEC and the

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<v Speaker 1>CFTC have been vying for control over the industry. One

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<v Speaker 1>thing that we do know is that more oversight is

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<v Speaker 1>going to be put in place very soon. Again, as

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<v Speaker 1>I mentioned, Bank and Freed has been active and testifying

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<v Speaker 1>before Congress and advocating for the industry and asking for

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<v Speaker 1>more regulatory clarity. I think it's possible that there will

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<v Speaker 1>be rules and regulations put in place that helped prevent

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<v Speaker 1>tight relationships between companies that do business with each other,

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<v Speaker 1>and it remains to be seen whether that could potentially

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<v Speaker 1>affect ALMITA and f t X. So Alameda is a

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<v Speaker 1>prop trading firm, but they have also played a big

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<v Speaker 1>role in venture investing. How does that work and how

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<v Speaker 1>is that shifted? Right, because you had a big story

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<v Speaker 1>recently about that too. Yeah, Alameda has been a big

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<v Speaker 1>name in venture capital investing, supporting emerging startups like Anchorage Digital,

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<v Speaker 1>which is a crypto bank, and Magic Eden, which is

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<v Speaker 1>an n f T marketplace. Uh, they're big name investor,

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<v Speaker 1>so it's really interesting when I spoke with Wilson who

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<v Speaker 1>said that Alameda was actually shifting over much of its

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<v Speaker 1>venture operations to ft X Ventures, and that's the venture

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<v Speaker 1>arm of f t X, which launched earlier this year

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<v Speaker 1>in January. And I confirmed that with the head of

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<v Speaker 1>ft X Ventures, Amy Wou, who said that they were

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<v Speaker 1>really taking on the startup investing from Alameda, that they

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<v Speaker 1>had brought over one of Elamida's employees to help with that.

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<v Speaker 1>And crypto venture capital is just a super fascinating space.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of investors are still very bullish on the

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<v Speaker 1>crypto industry um, but it'll be interesting to see you

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<v Speaker 1>know how startups do with uh this prolonged crypto winter.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you Hannah for joining me today. You can find

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<v Speaker 1>more of Hannah Miller's reporting on the Bloomberg Terminal, on

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg dot com and on Twitter. She's at h jeep Miller.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm an Area Bloomberg Crypto senior editor in today for

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<v Speaker 1>Stacy Murray Ishmael. On the next episode of Bloomberg Crypto,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Emily Nicole, crypto blogger for Bloomberg News, and tomorrow

0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:21.080
<v Speaker 1>I'll be in the Stacey Murray Ishmael. Did you know

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<v Speaker 1>that there's an entire conference dedicated to crypto skepticism? Stephen

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<v Speaker 1>Deal is a software engineer by trade, a leading crypto

0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:32.720
<v Speaker 1>skeptic and author, and now co founder of the recently

0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:37.280
<v Speaker 1>established Center for Emerging Technology Policy. He'll join me to

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<v Speaker 1>break down crypto's promises of a brighter tomorrow and where

0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:50.760
<v Speaker 1>he thinks it might actually be closer to myth. This

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<v Speaker 1>is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and I

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