Speaker 1: I think in terms of the way I conceptualize and
Speaker 1: think about the victim consciousness is it's really understandable when
Speaker 1: we're living on that kind of blind, subconscious autopilot right
Speaker 1: where life truly feels like it's happening to us, we
Speaker 1: have no control. In that state of blind autopilot, I
Speaker 1: think it's really natural to miss all of the opportunity
Speaker 1: that we have to empower ourselves today.
Speaker 2: Were welcome Nicole Lapera to the show. Doctor Lapera is
Speaker 2: a holistic psychologist and founder of the worldwide community of
Speaker 2: Self Healer Circle Members. She is also the author of
Speaker 2: How to Do the Work, How to Meet Yourself, and
Speaker 2: most recently, How to Be the Love You Seek. I
Speaker 2: first discovered doctor Lapera's work when her Instagram feed, which
Speaker 2: has over seven million followers, popped up on my screen.
Speaker 2: Ever since, I've been hooked. Known as quote the holistic
Speaker 2: psychologist doctor Lapera offered is real talk on how to
Speaker 2: heal thyself. I've been wanting to chat with doctor Lapera
Speaker 2: on my podcast for a while now, and this conversation
Speaker 2: did not disappoint. A major theme running through our conversation
Speaker 2: is the importance of being emotionally connected with yourself and
Speaker 2: learning the skills of authentically expressing your emotions to others.
Speaker 2: Doctor Lapera helps people heal from trauma and connect deeply
Speaker 2: with others using a variety of approaches, including an embodied
Speaker 2: somatic approach. Want to know how to be the love
Speaker 2: you seek? Let's find out. I bring you, doctor Nicole
Speaker 2: la Pera. Nicole, thank you so much for being on
Speaker 2: the Psychology Podcast today.
Speaker 1: I'm truly honored to be here, Scott, thank you for
Speaker 1: having me.
Speaker 2: I'm honored for you to be here. I've been a
Speaker 2: long time follower of yours on Instagram. I don't say
Speaker 2: that to all my guests. You know, what you've really
Speaker 2: built is incredible and your public mental health dissemination is
Speaker 2: basically unparalleled. So congratulations first on what you've built for yourself.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, and I truly appreciate your support along
Speaker 1: the way.
Speaker 2: Of course, of course, at what point did you become
Speaker 2: the holistic psychologist? You know, like, what was there like
Speaker 2: an origin story, like a moment where you like shed
Speaker 2: your whatever and you're like, I am the holistic psychologist now.
Speaker 1: I think it was probably more of a many moment
Speaker 1: journey for me. The transition as I kind of would
Speaker 1: define it to be, happened after I was several years
Speaker 1: into a private practice. I was living in Philadelphia at
Speaker 1: the time, you know, doing the work that I thought,
Speaker 1: you know, I was called to and wanted to do,
Speaker 1: Trudging along in a committed relationship, living near my family,
Speaker 1: and I continued to find myself feeling really disconnected, really
Speaker 1: unfulfilled from my own personal life, very much still struggling
Speaker 1: with For me, it was a lifetime of anxiety which
Speaker 1: really hit a lot of panic in my twenties, so
Speaker 1: that being ever present and at that point having clocked
Speaker 1: many hours working with clients who would come into my
Speaker 1: office week after a week, and I was feeling professionally
Speaker 1: really disempowered. I continue to hear that from even you know,
Speaker 1: the most insightful from the most insightful conversations, awarenesses. The
Speaker 1: clients I was working with kept coming in and reporting
Speaker 1: more of the same, more of the same symptoms, more
Speaker 1: of the same struggles, more of the same dysfunctional habits,
Speaker 1: and very much seeing that mirror reflected in my own
Speaker 1: personal life. At my own attempts at therapy and self awareness,
Speaker 1: and using all of these tools, I sought to understand
Speaker 1: I'm a lifelong learner, as my dad would for many
Speaker 1: years joke when I was finding myself in a year
Speaker 1: after year of school, He's like, I think you just
Speaker 1: really want to be a learner. And so I, as
Speaker 1: many of us do, I went online and I sought
Speaker 1: to find is there other information out there that I'm
Speaker 1: missing in terms of clinically working understanding the human condition,
Speaker 1: And very thankfully I was met with a wealth of
Speaker 1: information in terms of the physical body. I think foundationally,
Speaker 1: for me that was the biggest opening, from everything from
Speaker 1: gut health to nervous system awareness and how trauma really
Speaker 1: imprints the way our nervous system functions, the power true
Speaker 1: power of our subconscious mind, and how we have so
Speaker 1: many of those you know, neurobiological habits that are just
Speaker 1: wiring wired into us. And I finally started to have
Speaker 1: a bit of language for why so many people were
Speaker 1: stuck no matter kind of what they knew to do differently,
Speaker 1: they were kind of compelled to repeat the same habits
Speaker 1: and patterns that were often created and you know, colored
Speaker 1: by their childhood experiences. And for me, that was when
Speaker 1: the very gradual kind of realization in terms of Well,
Speaker 1: I think I now need to start working holistically, bringing
Speaker 1: the body into conversations with my clients, you know, giving
Speaker 1: tools that are much more of the embodiment piece of practice.
Speaker 1: And that's when I think I kind of shed that final,
Speaker 1: that final identity of working traditionally and really began to
Speaker 1: embrace again the idea of a holistic psychologist.
Speaker 2: Cool. Thanks for that origin story. I'm from Piladelphia too.
Speaker 2: Were you were you born and raised in Philly.
Speaker 1: I was the Northeast.
Speaker 2: I used to visit my grandmother every Sunday in the
Speaker 2: Northeast near Bustleton and Roosevelt. Oh.
Speaker 1: I was right on Caster Avenue, right near Common in
Speaker 1: Oxford Circle. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Sweet, that's so cool, and that's so cool. So you
Speaker 2: ended up Where do you live now?
Speaker 1: Now? I live in Scottsdale, Arizona, Okay, out in the sunshine.
Speaker 1: I left the Northeast weather again very much in alignment
Speaker 1: with how important for me getting outside nature sunshine for
Speaker 1: a more significant part of the year really inspired my move.
Speaker 1: Yeah me too.
Speaker 2: I'm in California now. Yeah, so I hear you. So
Speaker 2: this new book, How to Be the Love You Seek,
Speaker 2: break psych goals, find peace and heal your relationships. Is
Speaker 2: I saw in one of the posts you wrote that
Speaker 2: you think this is your best book yet. Is that right?
Speaker 1: I feel very deeply connected to the work in the book.
Speaker 1: I share a lot of my own relational journey of
Speaker 1: healing in this book. And I think in relationships in
Speaker 1: general are just such a point of topic conversation, struggle,
Speaker 1: or the house for many of us, all about many
Speaker 1: of our generational dysfunctional cycles. So I would say, yes,
Speaker 1: this for me feels very personally at the top of
Speaker 1: the list in terms of relevance. And I'm looking forward
Speaker 1: to being published and you know, getting out in the
Speaker 1: collective and seeing kind of the impact that it'll have there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure it'll have a great impact. You already
Speaker 2: have an audience that is at rapt attention for anything
Speaker 2: you say, so they just need to read it. And
Speaker 2: I loved it. I mean, I really loved this book.
Speaker 2: And there's just so many mutual areas of interest and
Speaker 2: and little nooks and crannies weing go in, you know,
Speaker 2: as we can turn out on something I thought was
Speaker 2: interesting that you just said is about going into holistically
Speaker 2: because you felt perhaps the somatic aspect was missing from
Speaker 2: a lot of techniques, and obviously the book The Body
Speaker 2: Keeps the Score really brought to prominence the importance of
Speaker 2: the body. My question is, you know, do you think
Speaker 2: it's ever possible for a for a pendulum to swing
Speaker 2: too much in one direction? Because to me now, when
Speaker 2: I think holistically, I think we've left out the mind.
Speaker 2: All we talk about is the body. And I'm wondering
Speaker 2: how what's coming up for you when I say this,
Speaker 2: because I feel like the pendulum with the Body Keeps
Speaker 2: the Score kind of has gone a little too much
Speaker 2: in an extreme direction, that we're not actually being holistic
Speaker 2: anymore about it.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. I think generally with new awareness, with new information,
Speaker 1: even in my own healing journey, I think there can
Speaker 1: be a pendulum kind of extreme swinging and overcompensation. Though,
Speaker 1: I think for me, when I think of the just
Speaker 1: interconnectedness between the mind and the body, again in my
Speaker 1: belief it's foundational core, I could make a case that
Speaker 1: in dealing with the body, we are naturally tending to
Speaker 1: and impacting the mind. And the simplest example of that
Speaker 1: is I think the experience I've lived, coming from a
Speaker 1: lifetime of stress and anxiety, housed in the body right
Speaker 1: not able to feel, and until I became aware of
Speaker 1: how much tension and constriction and emotional trauma I was
Speaker 1: carrying that was so reflected in my mind, my racing thoughts,
Speaker 1: my endless worry, and as I integrated the body into
Speaker 1: my conversation naturally through somatic practices and creating a ground
Speaker 1: and calming presence, I was though it's indirectly though, I
Speaker 1: was very much still impacting my mind's ability to embrace
Speaker 1: stillness and internal reflection, and actually my ability to empower
Speaker 1: my mind to be what I think is the greatest
Speaker 1: gift of our mind, which is the power of intentional creation,
Speaker 1: as opposed to I think the deeper recesses of our
Speaker 1: subconscious which many of us are are driven by. And
Speaker 1: so I think I just when I think of mind
Speaker 1: and body, I even think about it when I see
Speaker 1: and when I saw my own physical manifestation of a
Speaker 1: hunched over body and self protection of my heart carrying
Speaker 1: all of this constriction specifically for me around my mid
Speaker 1: section because I was so frozen in that you know,
Speaker 1: kind of vaguel dorsal vaguel response for so long, and
Speaker 1: that shut down and now as I heal right, my
Speaker 1: body is not only showing a different manifestation again, my
Speaker 1: mind is too.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, certainly your book is about how to
Speaker 2: reconnect with all of you, right, and so much of
Speaker 2: it like there's this thread that runs through so much
Speaker 2: of it which is constantly kind of checking in with
Speaker 2: your heart. I don't know how to put it. You're
Speaker 2: just like constantly like, well, hold on, is this really
Speaker 2: you know, coming from a deeper truth here? And then
Speaker 2: of course the beautiful epilogue which we'll get to, where
Speaker 2: a colleague of yours and a lover of yours, you know,
Speaker 2: spoke their truth. But I think this is really profound,
Speaker 2: and it's been offered up in different kinds of therapy practices.
Speaker 2: For instance, DBT they teach wise mind, And I saw
Speaker 2: a connection between kind of the wise mind practice and
Speaker 2: with a lot of the threads running through what you
Speaker 2: talk about, I was wondering, do you see a connection
Speaker 2: there with this idea of being grounded in wise mind,
Speaker 2: which is grounded in your body as well?
Speaker 1: Absolutely, for me, learning about the electromagnetic power of our heart,
Speaker 1: the scientist in me always likes to mapple on even
Speaker 1: concepts like why wise mind or higher presence, higher self, right,
Speaker 1: all of these things that I've read about through different
Speaker 1: traditions and felt like very alluring, attractive, resonating concepts, But
Speaker 1: there's always a little part of me that's like, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: how can I see that study that, Where is that essence?
Speaker 1: Where does it live? And so really coupling that with
Speaker 1: the incredible science of the heart, I really like to cite,
Speaker 1: you know, Heart Math Institute, I think is at the
Speaker 1: forefront of studying the heart and its energetic power, and
Speaker 1: so for me giving it a physical location, right, and
Speaker 1: again emphasizing again the foundational importance of if we're paying
Speaker 1: attention endlessly, distracted or hypervigilant to the world around us
Speaker 1: or even in our thinking mind right over analyzing, always assessing,
Speaker 1: and if we're not giving any time attention and connection
Speaker 1: to our bodies and specifically our heart. That's again the
Speaker 1: location of where I think this very beautiful conceptual idea
Speaker 1: of deeper truths, though they actually can for a lot
Speaker 1: of us map onto sensations, you know, things that kind
Speaker 1: of internally we can tune into when we're ground it
Speaker 1: and safe. I think that's the biggest caveat there in
Speaker 1: being present in our physical body, when we're able to
Speaker 1: be in that moment of stillness, silence, solitude, when we're
Speaker 1: able to tune out or at least unhook our attentional
Speaker 1: focus from all of the endless distractions of the world
Speaker 1: around us and give attention to and then more so
Speaker 1: begin to make choices from the heart as opposed to
Speaker 1: all of the different conditioning and reasons why we can
Speaker 1: convince ourselves out of. For those of us who have
Speaker 1: somewhat of a connection to that internal guidance, those inner
Speaker 1: pings that oh, I know maybe what I want to
Speaker 1: say or what I need to do in this situation, though,
Speaker 1: I override it because quickly what comes in is all
Speaker 1: of the conditioning, all the reasons why I learned I shouldn't,
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, say, do feel or act in that way.
Speaker 2: Inner pings, I love that good. That's a good. You know,
Speaker 2: as inn HSP a highly sensitive person, and I own
Speaker 2: that aspect of myself. I feel like there's a lot
Speaker 2: in your book to really resonate with and to not
Speaker 2: have shame over. You know, you can be told a
Speaker 2: lot as niche as P throughout your life that you're
Speaker 2: you know, you're too sensitive. You know, and but you know,
Speaker 2: there are great individual differences, and I personally find it
Speaker 2: easier to connect with people who are more heart centered
Speaker 2: and or more integrative with their heart in their mind.
Speaker 2: But you know that's not everyone. I mean, there are
Speaker 2: some people I meet who are so extraordinarily analytical, and
Speaker 2: I feel like I have no way in They're like
Speaker 2: just like there. I don't know how to describe. But
Speaker 2: there's some people I just feel like I'm floating in
Speaker 2: space when I'm talking to them. I have nothing to
Speaker 2: connect to. Do you ever feel that way when you
Speaker 2: meet some people?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting to consider, even for me too, very
Speaker 1: much identifying as a kind of very high feeler for
Speaker 1: the large majority of highly sensitive the large majority of
Speaker 1: the beginning of my life decades even because and something
Speaker 1: that I would hear very commonly in my childhood was
Speaker 1: how shy I was, how removed I was, And now
Speaker 1: having this language and understanding, I understand that that was
Speaker 1: a byproduct of not having the safe container, the attunement
Speaker 1: that I needed to navigate all of those overwhelming, you know,
Speaker 1: sensitive emotions that I was going through on a daily basis.
Speaker 1: And then interestingly, as I entered my thirties I had
Speaker 1: when I was in my psychoanalytic training program. One of
Speaker 1: the things that we did is we would sit around
Speaker 1: all analysts in a room and do kind of have
Speaker 1: a free association session, a group session where you would
Speaker 1: be open to you know, people kind of telling you,
Speaker 1: sharing how they experienced you. And I had a really
Speaker 1: devastating piece of awareness or perspective given to me by
Speaker 1: a colleague at that time, and she described me as
Speaker 1: cold and aloof, and I was like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I've never heard myself it reflected interestingly, I share the
Speaker 1: story in my book of my first boyfriend in my
Speaker 1: high school years when we broke up. He assessed that
Speaker 1: I was emotionally unavailable. Again took me by complete surprise,
Speaker 1: because in my being I had all of these feelings right,
Speaker 1: I wasn't. I was shy in protection. I was aloof
Speaker 1: and emotionally unavailable all out of protection. So just sharing
Speaker 1: that piece that as I've gotten more now grounded in
Speaker 1: my own presence, able to be with all of the
Speaker 1: big emotions that I feel, and then more grounded in
Speaker 1: how I experience those around me, because for a long
Speaker 1: time I was so focused on how other people are
Speaker 1: experiencing me. Do they like me? Do they want to
Speaker 1: spend time with me? Is there some silence in the
Speaker 1: air that I can fill all from a very distance
Speaker 1: though place, never really sharing anything deep. So now to
Speaker 1: answer your question, I'm very much more able to attune
Speaker 1: to how I feel in the presence of other different individuals,
Speaker 1: And I think those that are more in their bodies,
Speaker 1: more grounded in their own presence, just naturally feel a
Speaker 1: bit safer for me, and I'm able to more quickly,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of connect and even just either if
Speaker 1: it's feel a little bit safer in the silence that
Speaker 1: once felt like I had to fill it with that person,
Speaker 1: or more able to share a little bit deeper of
Speaker 1: a sentiment, whatever it may be. I do think that
Speaker 1: I have the same experience of that kind of internal intuition,
Speaker 1: kind of like resonating and being like, oh, this is
Speaker 1: kind of someone in their body and able to receive
Speaker 1: whatever it is that you want to offer.
Speaker 2: Sounds like you've been on quite the journey of personal growth,
Speaker 2: you know. There's it's such a tricky thing to simultaneously
Speaker 2: keep your own sense of self and also you know,
Speaker 2: enter someone else's life. You know, and you know, connect
Speaker 2: with someone. Some people, in the most extreme cases, like
Speaker 2: borderline personality disorder, there can be this kind of no boundaries,
Speaker 2: you know, like they're just constantly, always scanning to see
Speaker 2: what they can give others, as opposed to lead from
Speaker 2: who they actually are, regardless of what someone thinks of it,
Speaker 2: you know, or how they're going to receive it. And
Speaker 2: I just think that is a major theme in your
Speaker 2: book because so much of love advice is like like
Speaker 2: the what's your love language? Crapa, No, I shouldn't say that. Well,
Speaker 2: that what's your love language area of research where they
Speaker 2: ask others, you know, to change to meet you know,
Speaker 2: your needs. That it's a very common thread and a
Speaker 2: lot of this relationship based therapy. Your book really puts
Speaker 2: a different spin on this. Can you talk a little
Speaker 2: bit how your book differs from a lot of that
Speaker 2: thread running through a lot of that kind of work.
Speaker 1: A lot of the shift in my work happened actually
Speaker 1: coming after having done many years of couples of family
Speaker 1: work and very much prescribing right to that model. If
Speaker 1: we just you know, have helpful conversations, you know, share
Speaker 1: insight and awareness is give people this insight into how
Speaker 1: you feel most loved and most connected to essentially to
Speaker 1: simplify it, like you're very beautifully doing Scott, asking people
Speaker 1: to understand me and then modify how they are, very
Speaker 1: similar to in my individual practice, I was meaning a
Speaker 1: lot of resistance, a lot of inability to actually make
Speaker 1: headway with those particular tools. And I think many of us,
Speaker 1: most of us as adults, have come and were born
Speaker 1: into an environment where we've had to adapt ourselves to
Speaker 1: maintain the safety and the security of whatever version of
Speaker 1: connection that was present and for many of us, and
Speaker 1: one of the things I hope to impart readers in
Speaker 1: this book is really calling to awareness and possibly question
Speaker 1: what our definition of relationship is because so many of
Speaker 1: us define love and connection based on this idea that
Speaker 1: I have to somehow be different. And now in adulthood,
Speaker 1: when it's whether it's my romantic partner, my family member,
Speaker 1: my friend who's asking, suggesting, maybe even demanding sometimes for
Speaker 1: us to be more, you know, the way they need
Speaker 1: us to be. Not only does it right activate all
Speaker 1: of that old conditioning and this idea that I'm not
Speaker 1: worthy exactly as I am that I think is at
Speaker 1: the core for many of us driving many of our
Speaker 1: habits and patterns around that. I actually don't think it
Speaker 1: works because I think oftentimes what the person is even
Speaker 1: requesting in terms of the shift or change is so
Speaker 1: grounded in their definition of love and connection from childhood
Speaker 1: that now we've created a scenario where very sadly, both
Speaker 1: of the parties are left unfulfilled or not feeling truly seen,
Speaker 1: one because they're actively trying to be different, and the
Speaker 1: other because even in the way this person maybe is
Speaker 1: successfully right being different, it's not necessarily landing. Because what
Speaker 1: I hope again another takeaway is a more true definition
Speaker 1: of what love and relationships are, which is the space
Speaker 1: to express ourselves whatever that is our thoughts, our feelings,
Speaker 1: our perspectives, our emotions, and the safety and the security
Speaker 1: to really gain the value that we all intrinsically need
Speaker 1: in terms of the support, the support of nervous system
Speaker 1: in those moments of dysregulation of overwhelm, the collaboration of
Speaker 1: you individuals creating or imagining a life and a future together,
Speaker 1: however big that group is. This of course absolutely extends
Speaker 1: beyond our romantic partnerships, in my opinion, into our communities
Speaker 1: where we can have space for difference and difference ideas, opinions, emotions,
Speaker 1: wants and needs and still be joined together as the
Speaker 1: group in which that we are.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Rogers talked about unconditional positive regard. Seems similar to
Speaker 2: this notion of giving someone the space to express themselves
Speaker 2: as they truly are, and then giving love is allowing
Speaker 2: someone else to express and feel safe. Right, So it's
Speaker 2: a two way street. I mean, it's beautiful when both
Speaker 2: people are doing it to each other. That's that's called
Speaker 2: a nice relationship. Sign me up, sign me up for that?
Speaker 2: Where can I find that? But email me if you
Speaker 2: want to give me that kind of relationship. A little cheeky,
Speaker 2: but the idea of I mean, your book really puts
Speaker 2: a lot of things I'm sorry about metaphors on their head,
Speaker 2: spins them on their head. So that's one of my
Speaker 2: warning disabilities as metaphors. Your book spins a lot of
Speaker 2: things on their head. Makes sense, but okay, But one
Speaker 2: thing it does is the idea of trauma bonds. You know,
Speaker 2: you see a lot of discussion of how trauma bonds
Speaker 2: are bad, right, Like you'll see all over Instagram, Like,
Speaker 2: don't ever go in a relationship if it's formed with
Speaker 2: trauma bonds. But your book actually has a little more
Speaker 2: nuanced there, and you say there can actually be power
Speaker 2: to trauma bonds, it actually be something that it can
Speaker 2: be beneficial to a relationship. Can you talk a little
Speaker 2: bit about that.
Speaker 1: I think first, what I have, at least my definition
Speaker 1: of trauma bonds is a much more kind of expansive
Speaker 1: one that includes all of the again often learned habitual
Speaker 1: ways that we've learned and been modeled and continue to
Speaker 1: repeat to relate to ourselves as well as to relate
Speaker 1: to other individuals. And so I think when we expand
Speaker 1: that definition beyond a particular type of dysfunctional habit and
Speaker 1: pattern to all of the different ways that we've learned
Speaker 1: to water ourselves down, censor ourselves, over step, are ONTs
Speaker 1: in needs, become merged with other people, or kind of
Speaker 1: whatever version it is, I think then we see how
Speaker 1: wide that net is and the large majority of us.
Speaker 1: When you were actually making your cheeky joke about emailing,
Speaker 1: I was making a joke in my head of like, oh,
Speaker 1: I I love to get that email too, because I've
Speaker 1: yet to meet an adult who truly had the safety
Speaker 1: and the security that they need it physically and emotionally
Speaker 1: in their childhood. I have met many adults who have
Speaker 1: been able to become aware, and I think this is
Speaker 1: where the power comes in of what our trauma bond
Speaker 1: patterning is, or what our habitual relationship with ourself being
Speaker 1: the first relationship that we're all in inevitably until the
Speaker 1: day we die, and then how we relate or have
Speaker 1: learned to adapt and modify who we are to be
Speaker 1: connected and safe with another person. You know, we can shift.
Speaker 1: And that's very much the experience that I have had.
Speaker 1: The relationship i'm in, My longest one has been now
Speaker 1: upwards of ten years. We just reached and when we began,
Speaker 1: there was a lot we were not I was didn't
Speaker 1: even have this information. I was still finishing up my PhD.
Speaker 1: I thought I was going to be very traditional psychologist.
Speaker 1: I was not speaking in any of this way, and
Speaker 1: I had yet to even go through what I was
Speaker 1: describing earlier, that kind of dark night where I was
Speaker 1: just feeling disconnected, unfulfilled. So saying that to say, we
Speaker 1: had a lot of my partner LOLLI, that is a
Speaker 1: lot of dysfunctional habits and patterns that I would conceptualize
Speaker 1: as a trauma bond and we can. However, I think
Speaker 1: when we become aware of the role we're playing breaking
Speaker 1: I think a pattern that a lot of us have
Speaker 1: that I know I had of pointing right, externalizing the blame.
Speaker 1: You're the problem. Oh, I'm just picking the wrong person
Speaker 1: and really looking at the role.
Speaker 2: Or the wrong gender from peace may be in your case.
Speaker 1: In the beginning, right, I had a little bit of
Speaker 1: That's how I understood away my first boyfriend telling me
Speaker 1: I was emotionally unavailable because I know several years later
Speaker 1: I discovered that I was attracted to him. So, oh,
Speaker 1: that that settles that problem.
Speaker 2: But I was going to say that that's got to
Speaker 2: be connected, like, now you're with a woman, does Lalie
Speaker 2: feel like you're more emotionally.
Speaker 1: Now In the beginning, I didn't. I carried interestingly, I
Speaker 1: thought it would. Lally's not my first female partner. I
Speaker 1: had several before her, and I carried that same patterning
Speaker 1: and with the same complaint. Inevitably, sometimes you know, somewhere
Speaker 1: down the line of after the newness of the relationship
Speaker 1: wore off begun to complain we're just not emotionally connected.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure you know what's here, and the relationship
Speaker 1: would drift and end naturally, or I would agitate it
Speaker 1: so much with these complaints that the relationship would implode
Speaker 1: or explode, and then onwards I would go to find
Speaker 1: someone else who was a bit more emotionally connected. Until
Speaker 1: I understood again the deep patterning that so many of
Speaker 1: us are driven by, myself included, I began to observe
Speaker 1: the role that I was playing really simply in terms
Speaker 1: of my emotions. I was so disconnected from my body,
Speaker 1: from my emotions, so overwhelmed, like I was sharing that
Speaker 1: shy That shy girl turned into just a dissociated adult
Speaker 1: who got very good at going through the motions of life,
Speaker 1: checking all the box of achievement, thinking that I was
Speaker 1: going to feel some kind of way, thinking I was
Speaker 1: looking for connection and reality, I was a million miles away,
Speaker 1: overstepping my physical limits, not connected to my emotions at all.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I use that as again, you're the problem,
Speaker 1: It's not me. Until I really saw and again, that's
Speaker 1: why I think the power of a trauma bond can
Speaker 1: come in is when we notice, because I do get
Speaker 1: asked then often of well, what if I'm in what
Speaker 1: if I do know that in my current relationship, you know,
Speaker 1: whatever loved one it is, romantic partner friendships, they can
Speaker 1: absolutely be trauma bond it family relationships, even our professional
Speaker 1: relationships can be See these dysfunctional habits and patterns, and
Speaker 1: you know I'll get asked, can do we have to
Speaker 1: leave what happens next? And empowerment happens, in my opinion,
Speaker 1: when we become conscious of the role we're playing. So
Speaker 1: for me, that meant become conscious of how disconnected I was.
Speaker 1: Beginning my own journey of not only creating the safety
Speaker 1: and security and my own physical and emotional body to
Speaker 1: be present to my emotions, but learning how then to
Speaker 1: offer myself sharing my emotions, asking for support, learning how
Speaker 1: to vulnerably receive the support that I was not familiar
Speaker 1: with receiving from my early childhood. Then I think we
Speaker 1: can actually begin to embody a more secure relationship, which
Speaker 1: I think is possible though, I too. If you ever
Speaker 1: get an email from that one Unicorn that that came
Speaker 1: from the secureness in their childhood, I would love to
Speaker 1: interview them.
Speaker 2: Deal deal. If I get that, I will send them
Speaker 2: your way as well. You know I wasn't going to
Speaker 2: ask this my next question. But just listening to your
Speaker 2: own personal story and your journey, I'm just an awe
Speaker 2: of your openness to change. It looks like to me
Speaker 2: like you let go of a lot of your own
Speaker 2: egos story. Is that right? Is that? Would you just
Speaker 2: what you say? That's right? Because you know this idea
Speaker 2: of empowerment consciousness is so powerful that you just mentioned
Speaker 2: this and you're talking about in your book. It's one
Speaker 2: that is near and dear to my own heart and
Speaker 2: my own research and writing. Is how can we I
Speaker 2: view the kind of opposite end of the empowerment consciousness
Speaker 2: of victim mentality? And I don't know how, if how
Speaker 2: you view it that, but that's how I see it.
Speaker 2: And I feel like our society is so ensconched in
Speaker 2: a victim mentality right now and and not knowing that,
Speaker 2: but we reward it. We'd reward it that people can
Speaker 2: get attention for it, You can get like it's you
Speaker 2: can get it's it can be nice to just stay
Speaker 2: there your whole life. How how can we move people
Speaker 2: more into this empowerment consciousness? And I and I did
Speaker 2: want to acknowledge your own what you just said and say,
Speaker 2: you know kudos to you for for really wanting to
Speaker 2: wanting to do that work, because it takes work, right,
Speaker 2: you can't just like the victim mentality doesn't doesn't believe
Speaker 2: in hard work. It's like, forget it, it's not worth it.
Speaker 2: But you didn't take that tact. You said, you know what,
Speaker 2: this might not be an easy journey, but I'm gonna
Speaker 2: I'm going to try my best.
Speaker 1: I think in terms of the way I conceptualize and
Speaker 1: think about the victim consciousness is it's really understandable when
Speaker 1: we're living on that kind of blind, subconscious autopilot right
Speaker 1: where life truly feels like it's happening to us. We
Speaker 1: have no control right the thing happens. I feel the
Speaker 1: way I'm overwhelmed by the feeling. I do the habitual
Speaker 1: thing I always do, even though I told myself I'm
Speaker 1: not going to do it. I have friends telling me
Speaker 1: to stop doing it or to do something that will
Speaker 1: be more beneficial. In that moment, in that state of
Speaker 1: blind autopilot, I think it's really natural to miss all
Speaker 1: of the opportunity that we have to empower ourselves to
Speaker 1: become aware of what's in that subconscious mind of ours,
Speaker 1: to begin to shape and shift, not only the way
Speaker 1: we're physiologically reacting, the way we're thinking about it and
Speaker 1: giving us the moment to change. And so I want
Speaker 1: to normalize. And that's again just the way I conceptually
Speaker 1: understand it, having actually come from a family who very
Speaker 1: much taught, modeled and who saw in myself that mode
Speaker 1: of conscient siousness, especially around the capabilities and for more
Speaker 1: it was me the limitations of my physical body, coming
Speaker 1: from a caregiver, my mom in particular, who suffered with
Speaker 1: chronic pain the entirety of my life. She was forty
Speaker 1: two and she had me, and from that moment on
Speaker 1: she was suffering with chronic pain, taking heavy medication for
Speaker 1: chronic pain for the entirety of my life. Had other
Speaker 1: chronic health issues in terms of heart and heart surgeries.
Speaker 1: My older sister, who was fifteen years older than me,
Speaker 1: I was unplanned third child. She also had a lot
Speaker 1: of chronic health issues herself, at least in her early childhood.
Speaker 1: So I had a lot of ingrained belief in terms
Speaker 1: of I was literally just waiting for myself and what
Speaker 1: physical ailment, disease diagnosis. In addition to the lifelong anxiety
Speaker 1: that I thought it would just be the rest of
Speaker 1: my life. Saw very similar anxiety in my family and
Speaker 1: my mom and my sister in particular, so had no
Speaker 1: reason to think that there would be any possibility to
Speaker 1: feel differently. Again, was awaiting limitation in my body, my
Speaker 1: body to express disease as opposed to express wellness. So
Speaker 1: the work began for me with being actually in quite
Speaker 1: resistance to the possibility that I could be different. I
Speaker 1: saw in the running dialogue in my mind right convincing
Speaker 1: me that I would read powerful stories of people using
Speaker 1: their bodies to create transformation and change their minds to
Speaker 1: create transformation and change, and I would close the books
Speaker 1: say good for you, and continue to embody the beliefs
Speaker 1: that that's not the journey for me, until, of course,
Speaker 1: I became really conscious of all of the ways that
Speaker 1: I was limiting myself, all of the ways that I
Speaker 1: was reacting on blonde blind autopilot, not having the possibility
Speaker 1: to make new choices, which a and blond in all seriousness,
Speaker 1: I was that person who on the daily when I
Speaker 1: decided and learned about the power of the body and
Speaker 1: nutrition and the importance of sleep and for me of
Speaker 1: movement and stretching out my very now tight and constricted
Speaker 1: muscles after three decades and of nervous system regulation, understanding
Speaker 1: that I had none. I was so overwhelmed all of
Speaker 1: the time. I would be lying if I said it
Speaker 1: wasn't kicking and screaming each and every day, right where
Speaker 1: I would set my alarm a little earlier, and I
Speaker 1: would keep that one small commitment to move my body
Speaker 1: for five minutes or do five deep belly breaths for you,
Speaker 1: however many seconds that takes. I had that all of
Speaker 1: the reasons why not. Though. The shift that happened very
Speaker 1: gradually over time was as I became more conscious to
Speaker 1: all of those limiting beliefs, all of that reactivity, and
Speaker 1: as I remained committed even when I didn't want to,
Speaker 1: even when right I was continuing to convince myself it
Speaker 1: wasn't working so slowly. I was also empowering myself. At
Speaker 1: that same time, I was showing up in choice, which
Speaker 1: I think is where that true shift happens. Where yes,
Speaker 1: life will continue to happen around us. We're going to
Speaker 1: feel some kind of way. We might even instinctually be
Speaker 1: compelled to react in a particular way. But the shift
Speaker 1: that I was seeing was built for me, and I
Speaker 1: think it for many of us is outside of those
Speaker 1: moments of just explosive reactivity or blind habitual reactions. It
Speaker 1: was built for me and all of the moments throughout
Speaker 1: my day prior to that where I began to tend
Speaker 1: to and care for my body, become more conscious to
Speaker 1: what was happening in it, so that over time that
Speaker 1: did then translate to Okay, I can be more present
Speaker 1: with my upset, I can be more attentive to my
Speaker 1: habitual reactions and compulsions, and at the same time I
Speaker 1: now have a bit of space to make a new
Speaker 1: and different choice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I love it. Do you ever get any
Speaker 2: criticism from anyone who says, oh, you don't pay enough
Speaker 2: attention to systemic blah blah blah, you know, racism, all
Speaker 2: the things, all the isms you do? You ever get anyone?
Speaker 2: Does anyone criticize you about that?
Speaker 1: I have heard that, though I'm often surprised when I do,
Speaker 1: because a lot of my work and even this idea
Speaker 1: of what our habitual reactions are, I really ground it in.
Speaker 1: For many of us are epigenetic lineage, which is impacted
Speaker 1: by know not only the individuals that came before us,
Speaker 1: but by their socio political, economic and the context in
Speaker 1: which that they were born. So when I hear that,
Speaker 1: which again I do get, I think it's a misinterpretation
Speaker 1: of I think a much more kind of surface idea
Speaker 1: or definition of the social structures that are one hundred
Speaker 1: absolutely percent in place. Now. I see myself though always
Speaker 1: and often talking about it in the context of the
Speaker 1: trauma that has been passed through many of us in
Speaker 1: our lineages that are one hundred percent I mean anytime
Speaker 1: I'm talking even again holistically, it's our individual bodies interaction
Speaker 1: with the context and the world and the environment around us,
Speaker 1: and what impact that that has. So again for me,
Speaker 1: it's just like a missing of I think, what is
Speaker 1: the larger scope of we are in relationship, like I
Speaker 1: said earlier, not only with ourself, but with the environment
Speaker 1: and the context and the world around us, as we're
Speaker 1: all of our ancestors, and all of that imprint is
Speaker 1: we now know scientifically right passed on epigenetically with how
Speaker 1: we learn how to deal with and tolerate stress, Which
Speaker 1: is why I'm still waiting for the unicorn that doesn't
Speaker 1: have some of that inability in them. Bred into them
Speaker 1: even because of the socio political economic context in which
Speaker 1: all of most of our ancestors have been a part of.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I see a lot of your work is really
Speaker 2: helping get people towards trauma healing and not getting keeping
Speaker 2: them stuck. There's a tweet you wrote in this year.
Speaker 2: You said, quote culture doesn't celebrate trauma healing because it
Speaker 2: means we would wake up. It means we would no
Speaker 2: longer sleep walk through life accepting dysfunction as square quotes normal.
Speaker 2: Love that tweet, In fact, I'm including that in a
Speaker 2: new book I'm working on. Your tweet. I loved it
Speaker 2: so much. Can you kind of talk a little bit
Speaker 2: about that? And do you see at all? Because I
Speaker 2: see trauma's big business these days, you know, And I
Speaker 2: think even just keeping people in a sort of victim
Speaker 2: and identity, trauma identity, you know, as though reducing the
Speaker 2: opposite of holistic, you know, like reducing an entire person
Speaker 2: to their past is actually big business in a lot
Speaker 2: of ways these days. But I was just wondering to
Speaker 2: get some of your thoughts in this well.
Speaker 1: I'm honored, thank you for using that quote. I'm so
Speaker 1: glad that you are resonating with it. Scott, I think
Speaker 1: another kind of big aspect of society. And again I
Speaker 1: very much one of my you know, dysfunctional cycles of
Speaker 1: achievement was even grounded in the celebration of certain ways
Speaker 1: of being of living that society I think now completely embraces,
Speaker 1: if not, like I was saying, celebrates outwardly, that is
Speaker 1: really unnatural to our human physiology. I mean even from
Speaker 1: growing up as you know, you and I from Philadelphia,
Speaker 1: growing up in a city living so I mean I
Speaker 1: lived on a major street. I would go to sleep
Speaker 1: hearing sirens at night, and that was like normal to
Speaker 1: me to hear what to our actual human body is
Speaker 1: quite dysregulating. A loud, blaring siren that we know means something,
Speaker 1: you know, catastrophic has likely happened. Is is not one's
Speaker 1: nighttime lallaby. But yet for me it was. I lived
Speaker 1: on top of my neighbors, I was, you know, shared
Speaker 1: a wall. I could absolutely hear right from what was
Speaker 1: going on in the name aghbor's house. I lived in
Speaker 1: New York City for a decade, piled on top of
Speaker 1: you know, like when you're in someone else's apartment and
Speaker 1: with a bar down below. Me and hearing all of that,
Speaker 1: and was that Lower east Side, Lower east Side? It
Speaker 1: absolutely was. I was on Avenue B, I was the
Speaker 1: second floor. I was now the six smoke coming in
Speaker 1: my window.
Speaker 2: I know exactly where you were. I'm picture gosh.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And again there was a part of me that
Speaker 1: became so familiar with that. It was a running joke
Speaker 1: up until my thirties that I would live and die
Speaker 1: in the city. And now the fact that I'm sitting
Speaker 1: here in Scottsdale, Arizona, which is a little bit of
Speaker 1: a city but very much not like the city I
Speaker 1: was envisioning that I was always going to be in,
Speaker 1: was just so familiar with that type of living. And
Speaker 1: then outside of that, right, the culture, hustling working. I mean,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, we're at our core, we're creative beings.
Speaker 1: We're on a cycle of seasons, right, there's cycles of creation,
Speaker 1: just like you know when we plan, we plant things
Speaker 1: and they grow and then they die and then we sow.
Speaker 1: It's not just nine to five, sometimes even earlier, sometimes
Speaker 1: even later, sometimes seventy hours a week where we're made
Speaker 1: to just push past our physical, emotional, and creative limits
Speaker 1: to do many of the jobs that many of us
Speaker 1: have to do to support the families living again with
Speaker 1: increasing cost of living, and again just the unnaturalness of environments. Again,
Speaker 1: the celebration I think that many of us get when
Speaker 1: we're doing it all, when we're super parent or you know,
Speaker 1: the prestigious partner at our firm, because we never say
Speaker 1: no to taking time, are to overtime, and we never
Speaker 1: take time off. I think it has set up a
Speaker 1: normalization of a lot that then gets kind of a
Speaker 1: band aid type prescription when people naturally have the symptoms
Speaker 1: of these unnatural environments, whether it's the physical exhaustion while
Speaker 1: we just drink coffee or take stimulants to wake us up,
Speaker 1: or the emotional symptoms of this disconnection from our creative being,
Speaker 1: and then we go down all of the pathways of
Speaker 1: putting the band aids on, whether it's the physical manifestation
Speaker 1: of disease or the emotional manifestation of disease, oftentimes at
Speaker 1: the same time being celebrated and just trying to put
Speaker 1: the band aid on to continue to get us back
Speaker 1: in that productivity cycle and continuing to do or play
Speaker 1: the role that we're playing. So I think a lot
Speaker 1: about human and where we came from and our ancestry,
Speaker 1: you know, our lineage and what life looked like at
Speaker 1: one time. And then I look outside and you know,
Speaker 1: it's not surprising to me that so many of us
Speaker 1: are feeling as disconnected as we are and are struggling
Speaker 1: emotionally to the extent that we are.
Speaker 2: Yeah, evolutionary psychology is relevant. It's understing some of this
Speaker 2: for sure. Do you think people are searching for authentic
Speaker 2: connection and love and kind of all the wrong places?
Speaker 2: Is like, do you think that people think that X,
Speaker 2: Y and Z is going to bring them a connection
Speaker 2: to their body and their truth and instead it's making
Speaker 2: them lonelier? Do you can you want to fill in
Speaker 2: that X Y and Z at all?
Speaker 1: I think anytime we're searching outside, whether it's what environment
Speaker 1: do I go to? I get asked a lot, Right,
Speaker 1: I want an authentic relationship? What do I do? Where
Speaker 1: do I go to meet the person?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: What's the dating app or is it in person? Or
Speaker 1: if that even still exists? What do I say?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: How do I kind of find them? Outside? And? In
Speaker 1: my opinion at least, and I think the themes throughout
Speaker 1: this book really reflect this opinion. Which is that it's
Speaker 1: less about going to the right place saying the right thing,
Speaker 1: and it's more about the inward journey of being in
Speaker 1: your own authentic self expression on learning all of the
Speaker 1: conditioning as we've been talking about, creating the safety and
Speaker 1: the security to be curious about who you are in
Speaker 1: terms of outside of the role maybe that you've learned
Speaker 1: to play very bravely, then making the choices to step
Speaker 1: outside of that familiar comfort zone and the identity that
Speaker 1: comes along with all of our conditioning and quite simply
Speaker 1: being ourselves. And then as we go about life in
Speaker 1: general right being ourselves, then we open ourselves up to
Speaker 1: attract down to an energetic level these deeper, more authentic relationships.
Speaker 1: But that's not to say I do want to go
Speaker 1: back to one aspect of your question. And it can
Speaker 1: be very lonely along the way as we get clear
Speaker 1: that maybe many of the relationships, as I know was
Speaker 1: the case for me, that kept me very active in
Speaker 1: terms of my social life, very disconnected from all of
Speaker 1: the feelings underneath for decades of my life. As I
Speaker 1: got really clear that they or I wanted to start
Speaker 1: making choices that were in alignment with my actual wants
Speaker 1: and needs. The byproduct of that was separating, losing, ending
Speaker 1: some of those relationships that I thought I would keep
Speaker 1: for a lifetime. As I turned inward and got clearer
Speaker 1: and just spent time away it and mourned a lot
Speaker 1: of the identity that I was losing personally professionally again,
Speaker 1: as I wanted desperately to find people then that I
Speaker 1: could be emotionally or more authentically I should say, connect
Speaker 1: it with. There was a period of time which was
Speaker 1: actually the biggest inspiration for me to even create the
Speaker 1: Instagram account back several years ago now, when I first
Speaker 1: put up the online shingle, if you will, as a
Speaker 1: holistic psychologist, it was really born out of not only
Speaker 1: a desire to share this new information that was so
Speaker 1: transformative in my own life and was transformative with the
Speaker 1: clients that I was working with more holistically at that time,
Speaker 1: it was also to find a group of people to
Speaker 1: relieve the deep loneliness that I absolutely know comes from
Speaker 1: a lot of our journeys along the way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. Well, tell me a little about
Speaker 2: the Self Healers Circle, which is an initiative that's related
Speaker 2: to this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, born out of actually so several years into being
Speaker 1: online sharing more publicly on the Instagram account, I started
Speaker 1: to get At the same time, I was doing one
Speaker 1: on one individual client work coaching, if you will, holistically,
Speaker 1: and I was really kind of learning and leaning into
Speaker 1: the importance and power of relationships. Near every individual client
Speaker 1: I was working with was either struggling in their relationship,
Speaker 1: feeling lonely, wanting that group of people. So I was
Speaker 1: learning and hearing about the importance of community from them,
Speaker 1: doing you know, kind of some research into how incredibly
Speaker 1: important communities are and can be. And I started to
Speaker 1: hear from a lot of people on the public account
Speaker 1: that they were interested in a commun unity. Hey, do
Speaker 1: you have anything that's like not because by this point,
Speaker 1: you know, the follower count was growing, so people would
Speaker 1: know people, Oh, my partner's in this, and I don't
Speaker 1: want them to see what I'm commenting, or my mom
Speaker 1: or my dad. So directly, people were starting to ask
Speaker 1: is there somewhere else that we can go to be
Speaker 1: in community that's not on this very public social media platform.
Speaker 1: So for me, it was just an alignment of all
Speaker 1: of these messages that I was getting from all of
Speaker 1: these different places. So I started to explore. Oh, I
Speaker 1: wonder what right a kind of community could look like?
Speaker 1: Can can I create something where you know? Every month
Speaker 1: of course, it's informationally driven where we roll out what
Speaker 1: we call course. So we have a new topic this
Speaker 1: particular month. We're talking about Powa sympathetic practices, how to
Speaker 1: relax our body right, So there's information given in terms
Speaker 1: of power sympathetic nervous system, why it's important in some practices.
Speaker 1: We have workshops that happen throughout the month. I think
Speaker 1: now we have upwards of almost one a week where
Speaker 1: either I'm giving the presentation or because I think it's
Speaker 1: so important to expose just like I learned many different
Speaker 1: types of thought. We have outside presenters come in. We
Speaker 1: just had a yin yoga workshop as one of the
Speaker 1: workshops given this month, So people in different areas coming
Speaker 1: in gifting us with their time and sharing kind of
Speaker 1: their mode of genius or their paradigm, if you will.
Speaker 1: And then of course there's the community aspect. We've now
Speaker 1: built what very much looks like our own social media platform,
Speaker 1: though it isn't. It's on our private server where members
Speaker 1: have the opportunity to put up their own profile populated however,
Speaker 1: they want with pictures of themselves with pseudonyms if they
Speaker 1: don't feel comfortable, and that's their opportunity. In addition to
Speaker 1: those live events where there's you know, chats and members
Speaker 1: show up early and have conversations while the workshop is happening,
Speaker 1: they have an opportunity to connect and begin to explore
Speaker 1: being themselves in a new way in the privacy of
Speaker 1: this platform, and to connect with others by doing it
Speaker 1: so so much. Actually today we're recording this on November first,
Speaker 1: which is its anniversary. Three years ago today. It was
Speaker 1: birthed as our first enrollment cycle, so we are three
Speaker 1: years going strong. We actually still have many members that
Speaker 1: have joined from three years ago that are members to
Speaker 1: this day that are still a part of the Selcular Circle.
Speaker 1: So it's truly a living, breathing embodiment of all of
Speaker 1: the work in my opinion, of all of the concepts
Speaker 1: at Yaril. You'll read about in how to Be the
Speaker 1: Love You Seek, which is the healing power of relationships,
Speaker 1: the importance of learning the safety and security to be
Speaker 1: oneself to find Funny enough, we've had actually people who've
Speaker 1: met partners, one of which is now a married couple
Speaker 1: that met three years ago in the circle themselves. So yes,
Speaker 1: well it's not a dating app in any sense of
Speaker 1: the word. It is just a really cool place where
Speaker 1: people are with who they really are exploring I should
Speaker 1: say first, with who they are experimenting with being who
Speaker 1: they are and are creating really transformation, incredible transformation, not
Speaker 1: only for themselves individually, but for their relationships outside of
Speaker 1: the circle.
Speaker 2: Sounds like an amazing group of growth seekers. How many
Speaker 2: members did you say? Did you say three million?
Speaker 1: It was three years old. I think we have around
Speaker 1: twenty thousand in counting a bit. Okay, that's good, I
Speaker 1: think we have. Yeah, I think we're representing now one
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty countries worldwide. We have a member's map
Speaker 1: where members can drop in their you know, general geographic location,
Speaker 1: and I sometimes just blow the map up and get
Speaker 1: chills looking at all of the different places that people
Speaker 1: are joined from, are tuning in from, and it's it's
Speaker 1: so it's so hopeful for me, not only because it's
Speaker 1: an actual manifestation of an idea you know, that is
Speaker 1: now in full creation. It for me is just symbolic
Speaker 1: of humanity. Humanity is desired to have these conversations to
Speaker 1: create these shifts, and again an embodiment of the incredible
Speaker 1: power that we can create electromagnetically, even right down to
Speaker 1: our heart space of being more and living more in attunement. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the more and more I live, I realized just
Speaker 2: how much energy matters above everything else. Like you know,
Speaker 2: you kind of have this notion that like attractiveness matter,
Speaker 2: you know, like physical you know, objective attractiveness matters, and
Speaker 2: then you start to realize so much of it that
Speaker 2: you're actually attracting is your energy. It's just it's just
Speaker 2: mind blowing once you really tap into that truth. So
Speaker 2: that might have been a little bit of a diversion,
Speaker 2: but it's just something I've noticed too.
Speaker 1: No, I'm agreeing. I'm actually going to show you. I
Speaker 1: have the chakras tattooed. Most of my tattoos have an
Speaker 1: individual significance and a reminder for myself, and I had
Speaker 1: gotten this one several years ago, and I too began
Speaker 1: to learn and embody the importance of energy. So this
Speaker 1: is I kind of daily personal reminder that you know,
Speaker 1: I am energy to tend to my energy first and
Speaker 1: foremost before I can even show up to support, to
Speaker 1: tend or to serve another. It's really begins in my
Speaker 1: own kind of alignment, in my own connection to myself.
Speaker 1: So every time I see this, which I do think
Speaker 1: is also a very beautifully done tattoo, I'm like, right,
Speaker 1: that's my daily reminder, because again, all of my old
Speaker 1: habits are at the ready of putting the world before me.
Speaker 1: Now that I have, you know, an endless opportunity for
Speaker 1: which I'm so grateful for to write books, to have
Speaker 1: a to do list, to have podcast engagements, I'm only
Speaker 1: as aligned and in flow as what I've probably done
Speaker 1: the several nights before, the several days before, how I've
Speaker 1: tended to myself first. So those habits are for me
Speaker 1: at the ready of well, go jump in your email,
Speaker 1: Oh you have to do this thing, Oh you have
Speaker 1: an early start today, And I stay grounded in that
Speaker 1: empowerment space of consciousness to remind myself that to do
Speaker 1: all of those things, the capacity that I would like
Speaker 1: to be present to do all of those things, it
Speaker 1: begins with the choice to do me first, to have
Speaker 1: you know, an hour for myself to take care of
Speaker 1: my physical body, to be in my own presence so
Speaker 1: that I can then be more fully present later in
Speaker 1: that day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. I think your epilogue kind of has
Speaker 2: a really nice example of this woman named Jenna who
Speaker 2: dropped in and connected with her own heart's truth. Do
Speaker 2: you feel comfortable sharing that? Obviously you do, and you
Speaker 2: wrote in your book the story. Can you tell our
Speaker 2: audience a little bit about it and how it opened
Speaker 2: your mind to an expanded relationship?
Speaker 1: For me, the story was kind of such an intuitive
Speaker 1: conclusion because, in my opinion, it really illustrates us shifting
Speaker 1: our awareness to even, you know, allow Jenna to speak
Speaker 1: what it was that was happening, allowing myself and my
Speaker 1: partner Lolli to receive it and to tune to the
Speaker 1: alignment that that was an our own truth was just
Speaker 1: so symbolic and embodied all of the concepts throughout. So
Speaker 1: Jenna is someone that, interestingly enough, I connected to in
Speaker 1: the early days of the Instagram account. I came to
Speaker 1: know her handle, as was the case I think several
Speaker 1: people on the account now I'm like familiar with because
Speaker 1: they've just been around that I'm used to, you know,
Speaker 1: their comments, and we've developed that type of relationship, and
Speaker 1: she absolutely was one of them. And so when We
Speaker 1: opened up the Circle several years after that account went live,
Speaker 1: and we needed help near immediately we crashed the server.
Speaker 1: We had some technological issues. Lollie and I were trying
Speaker 1: to navigate all of the emails on our own, and
Speaker 1: it was very clear that we needed more than the
Speaker 1: two of us, and she seemingly having like felt the
Speaker 1: ping of need was in the inbox and I saw
Speaker 1: and that at this point the community was quite large.
Speaker 1: We saw her DM right away. She was affirming that
Speaker 1: she not only saw and kind of saw the vision
Speaker 1: for what it was that we were kind of doing
Speaker 1: with the Circle. She herself was on her own journey
Speaker 1: and very much wanted to be a part of creating
Speaker 1: and you know, kind of running the community. So she
Speaker 1: joined in the context of business for lack of a
Speaker 1: better word, in the beginning, though very aligned business. And
Speaker 1: a year or two after, Lollie and I made our
Speaker 1: migration west for the sunshine and the lifestyle that you know,
Speaker 1: was a possible out west as opposed to where we
Speaker 1: were living in Philly at the time, and Jenna was
Speaker 1: living in very near proximity. So now we started to
Speaker 1: log a lot of in person time together, more personal
Speaker 1: time together where we would quickly be spending birthdays and
Speaker 1: celebrations you know, around the business would be happening together.
Speaker 1: And so flash forward in time, there came a bit
Speaker 1: of a rocky period where there was a lot of
Speaker 1: tension and a lot of stress around seemingly you know
Speaker 1: surface type, you know, irritations around you know someone not
Speaker 1: you know, saying the right thing in an email, or
Speaker 1: you know, little fights that we would have around something
Speaker 1: not being picked up to the store from the store
Speaker 1: that the other person desired. And we started to have
Speaker 1: conversations from a business perspective of well, what's going on here,
Speaker 1: Like we're seemingly having a difficult time communicating and we're
Speaker 1: all very committed. We had now a team that was
Speaker 1: working with us in addition to the three of us.
Speaker 1: We're committed to this, this this work, this is all
Speaker 1: of our passions. So what is it that's going on?
Speaker 1: And one day Jenna came and sat Lalay and I
Speaker 1: both down separately and shared that she had done her
Speaker 1: own kind of self exploration and was trying to like
Speaker 1: explore what her role in very much in alignment with
Speaker 1: the work that we were all doing individually in all
Speaker 1: this conflict was and she was coming to the realization
Speaker 1: that she was having feelings, romantic feelings for both of us,
Speaker 1: and wasn't sure herself what to make or do with them,
Speaker 1: understanding that we were at that time a married, committed,
Speaker 1: monogamous seeming couple, not have any awareness and no anticipation
Speaker 1: of how we would even receive that, though, having been
Speaker 1: someone who's been very heart led on her own journey
Speaker 1: prior to even meeting us, knew for herself that she
Speaker 1: needed to voice that that she thought that part of
Speaker 1: the conflict was right, having all of these feelings on
Speaker 1: our heart that she wasn't able to really speak about,
Speaker 1: and had asked, you know, both Lolly and I to
Speaker 1: take time to just let it settle, sit in and
Speaker 1: obviously explore how we felt, though affirmed that she remained
Speaker 1: committed to the work itself, even if that meant we
Speaker 1: would have to create some boundaries, some separation so that
Speaker 1: we could navigate if we'd weren't in kind of reciprocating
Speaker 1: those feelings, and Lolly and I now having evolved our
Speaker 1: relationship from very much trauma bond dysfunctional pattern, being very
Speaker 1: committed both to our own individual journeys and wanting our
Speaker 1: own self fulfillment, actualization and happiness and wanting that for
Speaker 1: the other. We had a conversation together and we're both
Speaker 1: very quickly able to identify that that was part of
Speaker 1: what was going on for us too, both she and I,
Speaker 1: Lolly and I were having you know, feelings of attraction, curiosity. Oh,
Speaker 1: here's a person who's seemingly fitting in to our life,
Speaker 1: like this is interesting, how could this look? And again
Speaker 1: not necessarily speaking it and so me being committed to
Speaker 1: wanting to explore it myself, me wanting her to explore it,
Speaker 1: And we made the decision to see never any three
Speaker 1: of us having had models for I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: I heard of the concept of open relationship polyamorous before,
Speaker 1: though we were really looking to evolve into three people
Speaker 1: in a committed relationship. So we, I think did what
Speaker 1: many of us that we went on line for a
Speaker 1: little bit. We went to search and see is there
Speaker 1: any examples of this? Is anyone doing this? What's this
Speaker 1: even called? We saw very limited models or examples at
Speaker 1: that time though we were all again affirmed and secure
Speaker 1: enough on our journey that we were curious and we
Speaker 1: were going to see how it could look and what
Speaker 1: it would be like, and so very successfully we entered
Speaker 1: into that type of relationship. And then it got to
Speaker 1: the point where publicly and even you know, putting it
Speaker 1: in my book, the fact that it is part of
Speaker 1: my epilogue. Now, we were getting to the point where
Speaker 1: Jen and I were co hosting a podcast at that time,
Speaker 1: we run The Circle Together, which involves an event that
Speaker 1: we co host once a month, and we were both
Speaker 1: starting to feel like we were censoring a bit of
Speaker 1: ourselves right, having to be like, oh wait, who was
Speaker 1: that argument with I can't say right, and kind of
Speaker 1: limiting certain details that we were sharing, and it was
Speaker 1: starting to impact our own ability to just freely and authentically,
Speaker 1: which is so much a foundational part of our journeys
Speaker 1: and that of which we teach. In addition to the
Speaker 1: fact that I was starting to become you know, much
Speaker 1: more publicly known, so moments where I would be out
Speaker 1: in public and people will come up, and I always
Speaker 1: celebrate when if you see me on public, come say hi.
Speaker 1: I love saying hi to everyone, But I was starting
Speaker 1: to have a concern of not being you know, transparent
Speaker 1: as to what was happening and how I would have
Speaker 1: to begin to monitor myself not only in my presentations,
Speaker 1: but in my more personal life. So we made the
Speaker 1: decision to publicly share on Instagram, and then as I
Speaker 1: was writing the book. While of course the book is
Speaker 1: by no means a book about opening your relationships, I
Speaker 1: do think it's so much a part of speaking whatever
Speaker 1: it is that you know as on listener's heart, you know,
Speaker 1: beyond attraction to someone else and interest in you know,
Speaker 1: opening or expanding a relationship, as we did. I think
Speaker 1: there's so many things that we don't say out of fear,
Speaker 1: you know, of what the person will think, out of
Speaker 1: what we think about ourselves, because of what it is
Speaker 1: that is on our heart. That I do think can
Speaker 1: be a big, a big helpful component. And again is
Speaker 1: so much of the work in those pages, which is
Speaker 1: being connected to the heart, the power that it affords you.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of the conflict and disconnection that
Speaker 1: happens when we're not speaking or connected to what it
Speaker 1: is that is on our heart. And so to this
Speaker 1: day it's the Three of Us opera and with all
Speaker 1: of its beauty, all of its challenges in terms of
Speaker 1: navigating a relationship. Now for me with two separate different individuals,
Speaker 1: and of course navigating the relationship that is now the
Speaker 1: three of us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you also you just have such an
Speaker 2: openness to what the universe is bringing you. You know,
Speaker 2: like a lot of people, the universe constantly is bringing
Speaker 2: them stuff, but they have filters. They're like, oh, that
Speaker 2: can't know that, Ignore that, ignore that. But you're like,
Speaker 2: you're like, huh, maybe maybe there's something here. So I
Speaker 2: think that that also takes just a great openness. I
Speaker 2: would imagine you would score high in the Big five
Speaker 2: openness to experience personality trait.
Speaker 1: I've learned to see the messages and to listen. I
Speaker 1: think that's a two part right, is to be open
Speaker 1: to when there are those moments of synchronosity of someone arriving,
Speaker 1: something arriving r that it even draws your attention in
Speaker 1: a world of endless distraction. And then there's a step
Speaker 1: of being like, huh, is there some thing in it
Speaker 1: for me? And then there's of course the step of
Speaker 1: if it is expressing it to the world and what
Speaker 1: that then means. I kind of have a running joke
Speaker 1: that my family has had to now go through too,
Speaker 1: coming out of sorts with me back when I was
Speaker 1: nineteen or something, and I, you know, told them that
Speaker 1: I was a lesbian going to be dating women. And
Speaker 1: now what I'm like, Oh, and now I have this
Speaker 1: new relationship for you. And so it's been a very
Speaker 1: interesting ride, and they've been very supportive from the beginning
Speaker 1: of that piece of information. They did struggle with the
Speaker 1: gayness one in the beginning for a bit. My mom
Speaker 1: in particular, though, it is it's a lot that you
Speaker 1: know is involved with listening, heating, and acting in accordance
Speaker 1: oftentimes with what is on our heart. So thank you
Speaker 1: for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're welcome. Well, it sounds like you just have
Speaker 2: an abundance of love in your life right now. I
Speaker 2: mean as a parent, I would receive it in that way,
Speaker 2: like I'm doubling the love now. Mom, It's like, okay, okay,
Speaker 2: that sounds beautiful. I want that for my children. I
Speaker 2: want them to have as much love as possible in
Speaker 2: their lives. I want to end with this quote of
Speaker 2: yours love. It says within your heart is the power
Speaker 2: to change your relationships as well as the environment around you.
Speaker 2: It's the love that lives inside each of us that
Speaker 2: is the true source of all healing. Thank you so much,
Speaker 2: doctor Nicole for coming on my podcast today and gracing
Speaker 2: us with your love.
Speaker 1: Of course, this has been a true honor. I love
Speaker 1: this conversation. Thank you Scott for having me, Thank you
Speaker 1: all for listening. I really, like I said, I believe
Speaker 1: in us as humans. I believe in the power of
Speaker 1: our hearts, and I'm so ever hopeful as I continue
Speaker 1: to see us opening our attention and awareness to that
Speaker 1: deep place of I do think in or knowing no.
Speaker 2: Thank you