1 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:09,399 Speaker 1: Baby, a baby, I need you, Oh how I need 2 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: you What to Expect as a production of I Heart Radio. 3 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: I'm your host Heidi Murkoff, and I'm a mom on 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: a mission, a mission to help you know what to 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: expect every step of the way if you're a new 6 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: parent or you're about to become one. Today's episode of 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: the What to Expect podcast probably had you at the 8 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: words sleep. Last year recovered newborn and safe sleep one 9 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: on one, so go back and check it out. But 10 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: today we're taking your biggest sleep concerns one step further 11 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: by welcoming Chrissie Lawler of the Peaceful Sleeper dot Com. 12 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,480 Speaker 1: She's a licensed therapist and baby sleep specialists, and she's 13 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: also a mom of four ages six months to seven years, 14 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: all of whom sleep through the night. That's not just 15 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: because she's lucky, it's because she knows her sleep stuff. 16 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: She's here today to explain her method of gentle sleep 17 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: training and answer your biggest baby sleep questions. Welcome Chrissie, 18 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for being here. I first want to 19 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: point out that you're a therapist. Yes, how and why 20 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: did you become a baby sleep specialist? I mean, I'm 21 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: guessing there was a newborn involved, and I'm guessing that 22 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: newborn didn't do a lot of sleeping. And it's like 23 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: motherhood is the mother of invention, but you tell me 24 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: yes exactly. So I've been a therapist for eleven years, 25 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: back before I started having kids. It kind of all 26 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: came together. I started noticing that all of my therapy 27 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: clients that were the most stuck, stuck in depression, anxiety, 28 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: resenting their spouses, feeling disenchanted with motherhood. All of my 29 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: clients that were the most stuck were the ones that 30 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: weren't sleeping. I also struggled with insomnia, and so I 31 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: hated as a therapist. So that I was like, I 32 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: don't know, welcome to adulthood, guests, we don't sleep, good luck, 33 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the real issues at hand. So I 34 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: got trained to treat chronic insomnia and two things came 35 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: from that. One, I reformed my own insomnia. I also 36 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: learned that sleep deprivation and postpartum depression and anxiety were 37 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: intimately linked in the data. Then fast forward, I had 38 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: my own baby, I wrestled with my own postpartum depression 39 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: and anxiety, had my own shame spiral. Because I'm a therapist, 40 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: I shouldn't be able to get depression because I have 41 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: all the tools, which now I know it's not true. 42 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: But I realized that a I was not enjoying motherhood, 43 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: and that broke my heart. I wanted to be a 44 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: mom for my whole entire life. I also knew that 45 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: I had all the skills, I had all the tools, 46 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: I knew how to implement my tools, but because I 47 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: wasn't sleeping, I couldn't get over the hump of this feeling, 48 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: this gloom, and that's not how I wanted to show 49 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: up in motherhood. So then I kind of dove into 50 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: all of the resources and kind of piecemealed it all together. 51 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,519 Speaker 1: But my biggest beef that I had at the time 52 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: was it felt like, as a mom who was wrestling 53 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 1: with depression and anxiety, as a mom who was a therapist, 54 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: that like knew all the ways that I could screw 55 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: up my children. And I'm a perfectionist and a people pleaser. 56 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: I felt like so much of the literature was telling 57 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: me you have to do it this way or else 58 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: You're terrible, You're doing it wrong. Your baby is gonna 59 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: suffer because you're not a good enough mom, and so 60 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: I felt so inundated with all of this. I'm sure 61 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: so much of it I was adding onto myself, but 62 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: I felt so lost and overwhelmed, like I just need 63 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: to know how to get this baby to sleep, and 64 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: if she can sleep well, then I can sleep well. 65 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: Then I can enjoy motherhood again. Then I can love 66 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: my husband again. And so it just like you said, 67 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: you know, motherhood is the mother of invention, the mother 68 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: of invention exactly. I love that line, and so it 69 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: just kind of came together fast forward. I sleep trained 70 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: my own babies, and then I was helping friends, and 71 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: then I just started realizing that as a therapist I 72 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: could have a voice in the space to those other 73 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:24,600 Speaker 1: moms that are exhausted and overwhelmed and disenchanted and feeling 74 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: bad about themselves. I could help them unlock the magic 75 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: of motherhood again. And if we can get good sleep, 76 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: then we enjoy the experience. See, you're a mom on 77 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: a mission too, just like me. Yeah, and a mission together. 78 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: So I just want to clarify one thing. If you 79 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: have anxiety or depression, it is not always triggered by 80 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: not sleeping. In fact, you could be sleeping all the 81 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: time as a symptom of depression. But I totally feel 82 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 1: you on this because there has to be a very 83 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 1: close connection for many moms. Yes, and to jump on 84 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: that and be super clear, I also I takes aloft, 85 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: I love zoloft. That was absolutely a part of my 86 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 1: treatment plan to enjoy motherhood more was getting on the 87 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: right medication, doing therapy, taking care of myself and arming 88 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: myself with more skills and tools to be able to 89 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: get sleep buttoned up and do self care and all 90 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: of that. So, yes, sleep is I think a super 91 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: super critical component of that, but it's absolutely not the 92 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 1: only component in mommy as well being. Absolutely so. You know, 93 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: you had your last baby during the pandemic, and I'm 94 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: just curious because so many different issues have come up 95 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: during the pandemic. You know, children acting up and and 96 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: things like that, completely understandably, but what about sleep problems. 97 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: Have you noticed any increase or maybe decrease in sleep 98 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: problems during the pandemic. Yeah, it's so interesting because it 99 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 1: really just depends on the baby and the family. Some 100 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: babies have gotten way better sleep because we're not carting 101 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: our tilders around to all of these activities and sacrificing 102 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 1: good quality baby sleep. Sometimes it's the opposite, where you know, 103 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: we're too tired for structure, we're too overwhelmed, so the 104 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: kids kind of just run the house and we'll sleep 105 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: when we sleep. I mean, I get it, like we're 106 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: all burned out, we're all kind of trying to survive, 107 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: and so it feels like there have been a lot 108 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: of benefits to being home so much as far as 109 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: baby sleep, but also a lot of downsides. Yeah, I 110 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: totally agree. Now, a lot of our listeners are pregnant 111 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: currently and already they're thinking ahead, are I guess, worrying 112 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: ahead about the months of sleep deprivation they've heard so 113 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: much about. And you know, we all know that baby 114 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: sleep conversations in general can be super are loaded, right, 115 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 1: and there are lots of very strong opinions and feelings, 116 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: and let's just say it, judge men, I want to 117 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: say at the get go, this is not about letting 118 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: a baby cry it out. It's not about whether or 119 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: not you can spoil a baby. You know, in my opinion, 120 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: you should try as hard as you can to spoil 121 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: your baby, but it's just not possible because a baby 122 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: in the first six months especially needs all those snuggles 123 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: and all those cuddles and the filling of a baby's needs. 124 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: But ultimately, also, as you wisely point out, they also 125 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: need a lot of sleep. And what we are going 126 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: to talk about today is how to help them get 127 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: that sleep right. Yes, absolutely so. What are some newborn 128 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: sleep basics that parents need to know before they even 129 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: bring their babies home from the hospital. Yeah, so, I think, 130 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: jumping back to your earlier point, I think, collectedly, as moms, 131 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: we need to stop scaring pregnant moms. There is so 132 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: much fear and overwhelm already, so much fear of inadequacy 133 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: going into it season. Moms that are listening to this 134 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: right now, please remember to be so gentle with very 135 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: fragile pregnant women that might feel very intimidated. It's great 136 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: to paint an accurate picture, but let's not paint a 137 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: scary one, no gloom and doom. Yes, exactly. So, I 138 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: want to piggyback on two things that you said. One, 139 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: we cannot spoil a newborn, It just isn't possible. They 140 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: need all of those snuggles. And two, they need so 141 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: much sleep, and so the my biggest point far, and 142 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: a way for newborn moms is keep those awake windows 143 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: nice and short. The newborn period is all about playing detective, 144 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: tuning into your baby and figuring out their cues. But 145 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: one of the mistakes that we often make is that 146 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: we project our own thoughts and feelings and needs onto 147 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: our baby, which can be really helpful, like, oh, I 148 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: would be feeling x y Z right now, so maybe 149 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: that's what my baby is feeling, which is nine helpful, 150 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: but a lot of times in the sleep realm, it 151 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 1: backfires because four babies sleep begets sleep. And like I said, 152 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: I also treat adult insomnia. And so when we're treating 153 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: adult insomnia, if we're getting all of this broken sleep, 154 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: we need to sleep deprive ourselves to make us good 155 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: and tired. So we fall asleep quickly and we sleep 156 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: all the way through the night, and then we slowly 157 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: scale that back. So a lot of newborn parents make 158 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: the mistake of thinking, my baby is not sleeping well, 159 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: but if I can get them good and tired, then 160 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: they'll sleep better. And that's not the way that we 161 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: want to do it. There are kind of three different 162 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: phases in this tired dynamic, So we want to aim 163 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: for about sixty minutes of awake time when they're brand new, 164 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: and some of that awake time for a new tiny baby, 165 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:17,079 Speaker 1: it counts as those drowsy feedings. So your newborn baby 166 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: is going to get like eighteen to twenty hours of 167 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: sleep a day, and in the very beginning, some of 168 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: those four hours of awake time are still gonna look 169 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 1: pretty dang drowsy. And that's okay. So jumping back to 170 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 1: this idea of three different phases of tiredness, what we 171 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: want to capitalize on is phase one, where they're just 172 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: starting to get sleepy. We usually have a lull in play. 173 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,839 Speaker 1: They're staring off their eyelids and eyebrows might start to 174 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 1: get a little pinky purple e. They're just in like this, 175 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 1: very calm, sleepy. Most of the time, we don't recognize 176 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: that as the optimal window to put them down. If 177 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:02,359 Speaker 1: we miss that the then we get into the second component, 178 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: which I call wired and tired. Oh that's what I 179 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: call it too, Maybe I learned it from you years ago, 180 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: grape minds exactly. But they get wired and tired. You 181 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: know that they're tired, but they're fussy and they're rubbing 182 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: their eyes and tugging on their ears and doing all 183 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: the tired signs, but they've gotten overtired, and so it's 184 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: really hard for them to wind down. The thing that 185 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: I like to think about here is we all our 186 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: brains are wired to power through our exhaustion. If you 187 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 1: think about from an adaptive standpoint, we have those moments 188 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,719 Speaker 1: where it's the middle of the night, we're tired, and 189 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: something needs us to be awake. So like eight months ago, 190 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: I remember it was three o'clock in the morning, I 191 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: was pregnant. Still, my seven year old comes to me, 192 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: I'm passed out, dead asleep, and she says, Mommy, I 193 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,559 Speaker 1: threw up. So what happens In an instant? I am 194 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: wide awake, am changing sheets, starting laundry, getting her in 195 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: the bath, getting her new jammie, singing her song, getting 196 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: her back down to bed, and then chrisis averted. I 197 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: come back downstairs. Five minutes later, I'm passed out again. Right, 198 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: it's because my brain knows how to regulate. Oh you 199 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: were sleeping, Oh wait, you need to be awake. Oh wait, 200 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: now you can go back to sleep again. Our little 201 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: babies brains are capable of all of those fundamentals, but 202 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: they haven't buttoned it up yet. And so if they 203 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: start producing those sleepy chemicals and then we don't get 204 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: them down, then they start to produce the powering through chemicals, 205 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: and then they're this chemical mashup of like I'm tired, 206 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: but I'm awake, but I'm tired, but I'm awake, and 207 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: then they're losing their minds. Then after that passes, then 208 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: they're so exhausted that even the powering through awake chemicals 209 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: make them knock out. So what happens is a lot 210 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: of especially newborn moms that haven't quite figured it out yet. 211 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: I think they miss phase one of the sleepy. Then 212 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: they're wrestling in phase two with the wired and tired, 213 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: and then they finally get their baby to sleep, and 214 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: that phase three, I'm so exhausted, I knock out, And 215 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: so they think, oh wait, I should have just kept 216 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: my baby up longer. So they finally knock out. But 217 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: it's a thousand times easier to get them to sleep 218 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: when we catch them at sleepy and we skipped the 219 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: wired and tired craziness. Oh infinitely more. That is so smart. 220 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: Clearly there's no one size fits all, right, So every 221 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: baby is different, like every parent is different. I'm sure 222 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: you've noticed big offerences in your four kids, and because 223 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: of that, a lot of this is meant as much 224 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: as advice as you can give, as I can give 225 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: some of it. You're going to have to like feel 226 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: your way in the dark. I mean literally totally, yes, 227 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: But what are some of the fundamentals about baby sleep 228 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: right from the start? So you come home from the 229 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: hospital right where your baby was sleeping like a dream 230 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: and you're like high five in your partner and then 231 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: you get home nothing. What do you say about the 232 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: whole you know, switching up days and nights and how 233 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: to overcome that, because typically when a baby gets home 234 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: from the hospital, they're in this world where they're used 235 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: to being in the dark. So nighttime is no baby Yes, 236 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: like you said, there is no one size fits all. 237 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,359 Speaker 1: All babies are different. I think as the sleep consultant 238 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: mixed with a therapist and my personal experience that I 239 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: talked to you about, my aim over all is to 240 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: empower moms to understand fundamental principles and like you said, 241 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: feel their way in the dark and feel confident that 242 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: I can tune in and figure out what my baby needs. 243 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: But there are some fundamental principles. So I would say 244 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: fundamental principle number one that I think is true for 245 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: all newborns is we want to keep those awake windows 246 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: at about an hour. Sometimes you can push it to 247 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: ninety minutes, but for a little tiny baby, I would 248 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 1: not push it longer than that. And that includes the feeds. Yes, 249 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: that includes the feeding. Sometimes if it's a super drowsy feed, 250 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: I'll count that as like half awake time. And that's 251 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: one of those nuances where like you're kind of feeling 252 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: your way in the dark, orienting day and night. The 253 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: best thing you can do there is not let daytime 254 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: maps go longer than three hours. So that is one 255 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,359 Speaker 1: of the instances that you would wake a sleeping baby. 256 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: The other big thing is keep your nighttime dark and dim. 257 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: So like using night light when you're feeding your baby 258 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: at night. If you have a TV in your room, 259 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: don't turn that on. Watch a show on your phone 260 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: if you want to be entertained. But let's not have 261 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: these big stimulating bright lights when you're feeding your baby 262 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: in the middle of the night, and don't be trying 263 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: to play with your baby or you know, keep the 264 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: chat to minimum. Yes, even if you're talking to your 265 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: baby and I love you so much, you can whisper 266 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: all of those things. You can be stroking their cheek. 267 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: We do want to in those first like four to 268 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: six weeks, when babies are super tired. That's when like 269 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: you're going to be kind of a jerk. Like while 270 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: your baby is feeding at night, you want to be 271 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: like wiggling their hand, wiggling their toes, flicking their ears. 272 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: Sometimes I'd like dip my hand in my water that 273 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: was next to my bed and like sprinkle some water 274 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: on their forehead. Because we want our newborns to get 275 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: good full feedings, so we want to get good full 276 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: feedings at night. Um, we want to keep nighttime dark 277 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: and dim and quiet. Dates time sleep can be light 278 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: and bright and noisy. Let your baby be sleeping out 279 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: in the living room in a safe sleep space. Of course. Um, 280 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 1: there's no need for blackout curtains or white noise machines 281 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: at this age. Let them sleep with light, bright sounds, 282 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: and just orient daytime sleep feels different than nighttime sleep. 283 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: That's such an important point because I just recently had 284 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: a mom say, well, you know what we did the 285 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: quiet thing. And now we live in an old house 286 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 1: with creaky floors, and the second we step on a floorboard, 287 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 1: she wakes up. And in retrospect you realize is that 288 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: it is actually better to get them used to a 289 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: little bit of noise and not try to create the 290 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 1: sleep bubble around them. I think as they get older 291 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: and have more solidified naps and scheduling, that's when I 292 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: do like once I sleep train, I do like to 293 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: have white noise machines, blackout curtains, all of that, because 294 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: then you have something that you can plan around. You know, 295 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: if you know that every day your baby is gonna 296 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: nap at nine, twelve and three, and you can kind 297 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 1: of set up this consistency, than awesome. But newborns have 298 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: no consistency, no predictability. So that's another point that I 299 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: want to give to brand new moms. Some people will 300 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: talk about how awesome it is to get your newborn 301 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: on a schedule and etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, And I say, 302 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 1: throw all of that out the window. The only thing 303 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: you need to look at the clock four is to feed. 304 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: I say every two to four hours. Don't stress too 305 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: much about three hours on the dot. As long as 306 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: baby's gaining weight. Well, sometimes it's two, sometimes it's four. 307 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: Let's just get a nice big window exactly. So, the 308 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: only thing that I think newborn moms need to be 309 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: looking at the clock four is to make sure they're 310 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: not awake longer than sixty minutes or sixted and ninety 311 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: and make sure we're feeding every two to four hours. 312 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 1: But other than that, we don't need to be stressing 313 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: about getting on a predictable clock by schedule. It's just 314 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 1: not possible. And when we have unrealistic expectations, it diminishes 315 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,919 Speaker 1: our joy and motherhood absolutely and and plus you know, 316 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: babies need to, as you said, feed onto man. Even 317 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: if the demand isn't there initially, it will be ultimately 318 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: if you feed often enough. So let's get to some 319 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: of the specific questions that I hear about newborn sleep. 320 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: There is no easier way to get a baby to 321 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: sleep than on your chest or in your arm, skin 322 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: to skin, And it feels amazing until you have to 323 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 1: pee or your armfuls asleep. That happens all the time totally, 324 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: But a lot of parents worry, understandably about letting their 325 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: babies get into that habit. I mean I always say, 326 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: you know, babies are creatures of comfort and their creatures 327 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: of habit, and you create a comforting habit, you know 328 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: ultimately it's gonna be hard to break. Plus, having them 329 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: fall asleep on you, especially when you're a sleepy too, 330 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 1: can be a safety risk. What do you say about this? 331 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: I mean, especially early on when it's so tempting. Yeah, 332 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 1: so I say, first and foremost, we can't spoil a newborn. 333 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: And secondly, kind of my general principle really in parenting 334 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: as a whole is do as much as your baby 335 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,239 Speaker 1: needs you to do, but not more than that. And 336 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: so lots of newborn babies need to be swaddled up, 337 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: snug and rocked to sleep. Fine, if you can then 338 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: put your baby down, great, do that, you know, so 339 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: we're still pretty much rocking our baby to sleep for 340 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: every single sleep. Sometimes you can get the timing just 341 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: right and swaddle snug, and some babies can just drift 342 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,199 Speaker 1: off to sleep on their own. Again, that shouldn't be 343 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: the expectation that newborn moms have of what doing it 344 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: right looks like, because that's not realistic. Um. The only 345 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: thing that I try to avoid when possible is not 346 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: relying on nursing to sleep because again, like if baby 347 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: is only awake for sixty minutes, we don't want to 348 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 1: get in this habit of baby doesn't know how to 349 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: fall asleep unless they're eating, and now we're eating every 350 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: single hour, and then we have a snacking habit and 351 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: all of that. Again, it's a comforting habit totally. I 352 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: always recommend a good snug swaddle preventing overtiredness, like I 353 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: can't say enough. And then if you need to rock 354 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 1: your baby to sleep, do that. If the second you 355 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: put your baby down they wake up, then maybe rock 356 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: them back to sleep or plan on some naps of 357 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: the day. You know, I think a lot of new 358 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: moms put way too much pressure on themselves to bounce 359 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: back right away and be exercising and cleaning and cooking 360 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: and whatever. Like sometimes it's really nice to just sit 361 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: and hold your sleeping baby. So if they won't sleep 362 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: independently on their own and their own bascinet or whatever 363 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 1: during the day, it's fine to say, all right, this 364 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: nap is just going to have to happen in arms, 365 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: or I'm going to get a wrap or a carrier 366 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 1: or a backpack. Definitely, at night. I recommend get your 367 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: baby used to sleeping in their own space. So that's 368 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: why again I say, we do as much as our 369 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: babies need us to do for them, but not more 370 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: than that. If you can rock your baby to sleep 371 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: and put them down and they'll keep sleeping, great, then 372 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: you don't need to hold your baby for every single 373 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: nap every single day. Do that sometimes because we love it, 374 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: and your son should should not be that. That's the 375 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: only way your baby can fall asleep and stay asleep. 376 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: So you should keep trying at least to put the 377 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: baby down, yes, and put them down to sleep, yes, yeah, 378 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: And then you know, if baby stirs in the transition, 379 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: then you can like jostle their belly, you can give 380 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: a pacifier, you can do an eyebrow stroke. They are 381 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: all of these things that you can do to help 382 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 1: ease the transition to be sleeping in their own space 383 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: a little bit better. Awesome, Okay, deep breath And I 384 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 1: almost hesitate to say the words sleep, deep training because 385 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 1: the words summon up so many negative connotations. We at 386 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: what to expect, don't judge, no shame in the game, ever, 387 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: Can you explain how your philosophy is is different from 388 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: what many people typically think of when they hear the 389 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: words sleep changing, and they're thinking crying, crying, crying, crying. Yes. 390 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: So one analogy that I use a lot is when 391 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 1: we are teaching our babies to go down a slide. 392 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: So I'm an extrovert. I like to get out of 393 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: the house, so I usually end up at the park 394 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: with my toddlers. And now i have a six month 395 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: old baby, and so I'll put her at the top 396 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 1: of the slide and hold her the whole way down. Right, 397 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,640 Speaker 1: she has some core strength, but she's not coordinated enough 398 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: to do the slide. But I'm I'm showing her the motions. 399 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: I'm showing her this is how we do it. This 400 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: is fun. Yet, stay sitting, we and I'm having fun, 401 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: and I'm holding her the whole way down. When she 402 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: gets a little bit older and a little bit stronger, 403 00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: I'm going to transition to just holding her hands and 404 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 1: in in a couple more months, when she's a little 405 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: bit bigger, a little bit stronger, a little more coordinated. 406 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: At some point, I'm gonna put her at the top 407 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: of the slide and I'm gonna wait at the bottom, 408 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna say come on, wait, and then she's 409 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,400 Speaker 1: going to be able to climb the ladder by herself 410 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:14,959 Speaker 1: and get to the top of the slide. And so 411 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: it's a very collaborative process. I'm teaching you the ropes, 412 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: I'm showing you how to do it, and then I'm 413 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: backing off as you demonstrate that you are developmentally ready 414 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 1: for this next step. But there is always some awkwardness 415 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: in that transition where maybe I put her at the 416 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,360 Speaker 1: top of the slide and I know she can do it, 417 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: but wait, it's different. I'm waiting at the bottom of 418 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,479 Speaker 1: the slide saying come on, and she's looking at me 419 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: like uh right. And because every child is different, I 420 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: had the first one who never did let go exactly. 421 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: She never managed to summon up that that courage, whereas 422 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 1: my second one, you know, six months, was probably doing 423 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: it on its own. So every kid is different. You 424 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: have to take their cues some of this, yeah, exactly. 425 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: So if I come back to sleep training and using 426 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: that analogy, I think the newborn phase, when we are 427 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: rocking our babies to sleep, we are rocking them back 428 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 1: to sleep if they're taking short naps, were showing them 429 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 1: the ropes that like Hey, this is how we get 430 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: you to sleep. When you're nice and drowsy, you fold 431 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: into sleep easily. We are making sure your naps are 432 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: long enough. We are teaching you how to sleep well. 433 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: That's what the entire four months is all about. I'm 434 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: showing my baby how to sleep well. Then. And I 435 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: know you recommend sleep training at six months and I 436 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: recommend sleep training at four months, but we can kind 437 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: of talk about those things. We can split the difference, right, 438 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 1: But I the reason that I like to sleep train 439 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: at four months is because they hit that four month 440 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 1: regression where I believe they are craving a little bit 441 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 1: more consider e stancy, routine and predictabilities, and they can 442 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: learn how to go into that sleep on their own. 443 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: There's still support. And I'm a big believer, Like my 444 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: main recommendation is modified cry it out, but you're gonna 445 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: fool cry it out. You can do no cry. What 446 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: matters to me is that we are setting the foundation 447 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:27,400 Speaker 1: and handing over some of that ability to initiate sleep 448 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 1: to our babies. And so there are two main components 449 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: of sleep training. I say that in air quotes. Sleep training, 450 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 1: in my mind is about optimizing the daytime schedule to 451 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: prevent over tiredness, which you've been doing for the last 452 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: four months. So the actual sleep training part for me 453 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: only entails in this first phase learning how to fall 454 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: asleep on your own. We are still rocking back to 455 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: sleep when they wake up from short naps, and we 456 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: are still feeding at night. And I think that's where 457 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: it can get confusing, because different doctors will say different things, 458 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 1: different specialists will say different things. People recommend sleep training 459 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: at different times to mean different things, and so I 460 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: go earlier because I think they are capable of learning 461 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: how to initiate sleep independently at four months, but we're 462 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: not making them cry it out at night to drop 463 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 1: night feedings. We're still letting them feed when they wake up. 464 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: And then my philosophy is, if we've got the daytime 465 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 1: sleep buttoned up and they're not overtired and they know 466 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: how to fall asleep independently, those night feedings will drop 467 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 1: all the way on their own, and then we don't 468 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 1: even have to do anything. So like, I just sleep 469 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 1: trained a baby this weekend, and all we did was 470 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: focused on learning how to fall asleep. Her baby used 471 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: to be co sleeping, eating every single hour, and she 472 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: just texted me this morning that her baby did nine 473 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: hours and forty five minutes right without waking up, and 474 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: we did not do any intervention in the middle of 475 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 1: the night. It's just he learned how to all asleep, 476 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: and so he learned how to sleep cycle transition without help. 477 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 1: That's an incredible success story. I was so excited. So 478 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: your premise is that you do pick a baby up 479 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: when they're crying inevitably always, So yeah, pretty much. So. 480 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 1: I the way that I do modified cry it out 481 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 1: is a little bit different than like for and again, 482 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: people use all these terms interchangeably, so I can kind 483 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 1: of be muddled. But I like to teach babies how 484 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: to fall asleep on their own. If we're doing modified 485 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: cry it out, I make sure the timing is right, 486 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: set the baby down, set our timer for ten minutes 487 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: when if they haven't fallen asleep, then I go in. 488 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: I pick them up. I whisper in their ear. You're 489 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: doing such a good job. I mean, loves you so much, 490 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: you're figuring it out. I give the passy back, I 491 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: do a cheek stroke, the eyebrow stroke, and just kind 492 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: of say, like, you know how this system works, and 493 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: you can figure out how to do it on your own. 494 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: But I also cap it. So I think that's another 495 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: area where sleep training can have a lot of heightened emotions. 496 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: Is somebody on a mommy forum might say sleep training 497 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: was awesome, like my baby screamed for four hours the 498 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: first night, but the next night it was only two. 499 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: And then somebody else is like, you know, your baby 500 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: is screap for four hours. So I do in like 501 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: the official formula I do. When we're first starting out 502 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: for nighttime, we do ten minutes and then fifteen minutes 503 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: and then But I would say in the years that 504 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: I've been doing this, ninety nine percent of babies that 505 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: I've sleep trained will fall asleep in the first or 506 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: second twenty minute timer. It is very rare that we 507 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: get through that third twenty minute timer and then we 508 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: just rock or feed to sleep and say, okay, I 509 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: was good enough for the first night, but that was enough. 510 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: We don't need to push too hard, too fast. But 511 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: the other thing that I like parents to pay attention 512 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 1: to when their baby is fussing is the very a 513 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: rehability in their crying. It is a very different story 514 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: if we have a baby that escalates up to a 515 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: level ten and they are screaming at a ten for 516 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: ten straight minutes. We're probably not gonna do these lengthening 517 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: timers like there's something happening. They're not learning how to 518 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: self soothe. But if you're paying attention to the variability, 519 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: what we have a lot of times is you know, 520 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: you put baby down and she was at like a 521 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: four and then a seven and a ten, and then 522 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: back to a six and then an eight and then 523 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: a three and then whoa, she was totally quiet for 524 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: a minute. If we're seeing that variability, every time baby 525 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: de escalates on their own, they're putting a piece of 526 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 1: the self suiting puzzle into place. And that's what we're 527 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: springboarding off of. That's why we go in and we 528 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: get them all the way back down to zero. We're 529 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: calming them down, we're showing them I'm here, I love you, 530 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: you're doing great, and then we give them the opportunity again. 531 00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 1: And really that process is like three days. If personally 532 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: you just don't want to do cry it out, I 533 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,719 Speaker 1: totally understand that, But we can't make the argument that 534 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: cry it out inherently damages attachment. I think the biggest 535 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: argument in that camp is that when babies are crying, 536 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:19,479 Speaker 1: their cortisol levels are increased. But the data also tells 537 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: us that two weeks after sleep training, babies who did 538 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: cry it out don't have any difference in cortisol levels. 539 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 1: And if we have a baby that knows how to 540 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: initiate sleep on their own, we are drastically reducing the 541 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: stress and cortisol and tears in the long term on 542 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: both sides of the crib. Yes. And I always say, like, 543 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: it is not our mission as parents to avoid our 544 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: babies discomfort. I don't know about you. I have babies 545 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: that lose their minds when they're buckled in the car seat. 546 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: I have babies that do not enjoy getting out of 547 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: a cold bath or getting their diapers changed. Your bookers like, 548 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna not do the things because they're uncomfortable. 549 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: I know this is the best way that I can 550 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: provide for your needs to be met so that you 551 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: can be happy and healthy and successful. On Friday, Oh 552 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: my god, I love that. Not surprisingly, when we posted 553 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: for sleep questions on what to expect Instagram, we got 554 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: a near fall. One of the ones that we get 555 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 1: a lot is how can I help a baby self series. 556 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: Now you've definitely gone through some of the basics. Swaddling 557 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: is super comforting, and so is a passi for some 558 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: babies and not for all. Unfortunately, I wish it were. 559 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: I was zero for two with passy because someone else 560 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: asked about passy's whether that's something you should restrict or 561 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: it's okay if it falls out in the middle of 562 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: the night. What else do you have to say about 563 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: self soothing? Yeah, so I do love pacifiers. I think 564 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: it's a great soothing tool for babies. If we have 565 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: a fussy baby, I like to swaddle, snug. I like 566 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: to get them on their side. Sometimes we rock babies 567 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: kind of up and down, where it's basically their back 568 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: is parallel with the floor, and that's just setting off 569 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: their moral reflex over and over again, making them feel 570 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: like they're falling. So I like them to be chest 571 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: to chest, which is better for feeding too, exactly, sometimes 572 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: facing outwards. But if you have a very alert, attentive baby, 573 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: that can also be very overstimulating when really we need 574 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: to be taking away anything that's stimulating them. And when 575 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: their faces kind of pressed into mom's shirt, it's you know, 576 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: there's nothing else to really look at they'll just close 577 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: their eyes exactly, or dad shirts exactly. The side position 578 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: a swinging movement. I kind of like a little jiggle. 579 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: So I think of like if we think of a 580 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: spin cycle on a washing machine, not unlike the towels 581 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: or lopside and you think your house is gonna break, 582 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: but like a regular spin cycle on a washing machine, 583 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: just this nice, steady, little jiggle, maybe like half an 584 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 1: inch back and forth. I think babies really like that. 585 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: I also do an eyebrow stroke, so we start at 586 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: their hairline and kind of bring our hand down to 587 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: the tip of our nose. We have a reflex and 588 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: instincts that if something is coming close to our eyes, 589 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: we close them, and so if we are doing this 590 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,800 Speaker 1: eyebrow stroke, we are encouraging our baby to close their eyes, 591 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: and it feels really good for their face to be 592 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: touched gently. My husband has this great move where he 593 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: like holds the passing in with his thumb and then 594 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 1: covers their eyes with the rest of his hand and 595 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: then just kind of like bobbles their head a little bit. 596 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: And so he's not even doing a whole lot, He's 597 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 1: just doing this little kind of ninja jiggle and it 598 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 1: works every time. He's the best baby. Soother good to 599 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: know is he work for higher like he should be. 600 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: So I just want to make sure video understands. So 601 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,399 Speaker 1: when you say on their side, that's when you're rocking them. Ye, correct, Yes, 602 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: you know when you put them down in the bass 603 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: net or because that would be unsafe. Correct. But I'm 604 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 1: glad that you mentioned that because I have. One of 605 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: my other ninja moves is when you are laying a 606 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: sleeping baby down. Again, we often are rocking the baby 607 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: and then we go to lay them down and we 608 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: flip them onto their back to lower them down, and 609 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: that kicks off the moral reflex. So I do is 610 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: depending on your sleep environment, sometimes you have to do 611 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 1: another little ninja move where you like move your left 612 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:32,879 Speaker 1: hand up by their head and then their right hand 613 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 1: on their bum. Or sometimes you can just lay them down, 614 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: lower them all the way down on their side, and 615 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: only roll them to their back when they're down so 616 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: that we don't kick off that moral reflex. We're just 617 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: tilting them. But yes, baby should always be placed to 618 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,959 Speaker 1: sleep on their backs. But that's my other secret trick 619 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 1: is lay them down sideways before you rotate them. You 620 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: have so many ninja move I I like to create 621 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: the ninja move my grands some would be totally impressed, totally, 622 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: but just one more time on things like swaddle and 623 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,959 Speaker 1: PASSI some babies do resist swaddle, or maybe they want 624 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: their arms free. Maybe you've got a sum sucker. So 625 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: just as you go, yes, yeah, I definitely have a bias, 626 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: and I know that it's my personal bias too, because 627 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 1: all of my babies have been really happy in the swaddle. 628 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: I wouldn't give up on the swaddle until you've done 629 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: all of the other soothing tricks in combination, because sometimes 630 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: they just resist the swaddle. But a lot of times, 631 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: the babies that seem the most like they hate the 632 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: swaddle are the babies that have really intense jerking movements. 633 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: It's kind of like hiccups in their body. They just 634 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: jolt and jerk, and so those are often the babies 635 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 1: that need to be swaddled the most, but they just 636 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 1: pushed against it because their body jerks and flails. So 637 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: give it a fighting chance for sure. Now you touched 638 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: this earlier and when I talk about having a routine 639 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: from day one, and I feel that's super important. But 640 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,239 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people get confused between a 641 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: routine and a schedule, and a routine is something babies 642 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:21,800 Speaker 1: can count on. It's something that makes them feel comforted consistently. 643 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,760 Speaker 1: This is what I can expect a routine, and babies 644 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: love that stuff. Schedules are a completely different matter. Do 645 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: you want to like weigh in there. Yeah, So my 646 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: experience has also shifted personally as I've had four children, right, so, 647 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: like I have four kids seven and under, and so 648 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: my baby gets a very different bedtime at naptime routine 649 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: than my first child. Did you know we were just 650 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: laughing at night, you know, we had the baby in 651 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: the sink and a bath while we were cleaning out dinner, 652 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 1: not having the dishes in the sink. Yeah, I was 653 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 1: wondering about maybe it was taking a bath in the 654 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,240 Speaker 1: sink while we were just kind of like doing evening stuff. 655 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: And my husband jokes, who, like, can you believe that 656 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 1: When Maddie was a baby, like we had her in 657 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 1: the bath and both of us are just leaning over 658 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: the tub just watching her together. And now with Nolan, 659 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: it's like, all right, kid, get clean because we got 660 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 1: stuff we're doing. That's why fourth kids are so resilient 661 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: and independent, right exactly. But I do think having something 662 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:27,359 Speaker 1: predictable and consistent they can count on. And it can 663 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 1: be a minute if that's all that you've got, or 664 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,319 Speaker 1: it can be thirty minutes if you want it to 665 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,399 Speaker 1: be that, but something that signals to the baby, hey, 666 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 1: we're moving in this other direction like we were playing, 667 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,400 Speaker 1: and now we're going to bed. And it's so helpful 668 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: as the child grows, because you get to the toddler 669 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,439 Speaker 1: years and they are going a hundred miles per hour. 670 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 1: You can't suddenly slam the brakes on and expect them 671 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: to go to zero. So that's the whole point of 672 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: the bedtime routine is to unwind gradually, and so if 673 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 1: you start that habit early enough, then you're ahead of 674 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 1: the game. So on that topic, because we also have 675 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:13,799 Speaker 1: moms who have older babies on the site, and some 676 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: of them are still not sleeping at fifteen months, eighteen months, 677 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 1: and you know, at this point, maybe you're regretting that 678 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,839 Speaker 1: you didn't do sleep training or maybe something disrupted you know, 679 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: sleep as usual, whether or not you have ever hopped 680 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: on the sleep train before. How do you deal with 681 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: an older baby or toddler who's still having the same 682 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: sleep issues. Yeah, so consistency is still key. Yeah, And 683 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: really I always tell people like, it's never too late 684 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,479 Speaker 1: to sleep train. The earlier the better. After four months, 685 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: the earlier the better. But it's never too late to 686 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 1: get good sleep habits. And like I said in the 687 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,760 Speaker 1: very beginning, I am a therapist and I treat adult 688 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 1: sleep issues. So if you're not tackling sleep and till 689 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,800 Speaker 1: you're thirty seven years old, that is fine, let's start 690 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,360 Speaker 1: today and get better sleep. So I like to differentiate 691 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: babies and toddlers because it's a totally different set of tools. 692 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:20,400 Speaker 1: Babies under about eighteen months, it's going to be consistency, predictability, scheduling, 693 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 1: having a good routine, helping them wind down, providing the 694 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 1: right space at the right time, helping them learn to 695 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,879 Speaker 1: initiate sleep independently. Babies that you're sleep training older are 696 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 1: just going to protest more than babies that you sleep 697 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 1: trained younger. It's just the way that the world works, 698 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 1: that's true of everything. Yes, totally, Babies over about eighteen 699 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: months is really when we start to see that toddler 700 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 1: will coming into play. You mean toddler won't. Yes, that 701 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 1: is exactly what I mean. So with toddlers, it's a 702 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:59,239 Speaker 1: lot more about getting their buy in in some way, 703 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 1: shape or form, because you cannot force a human being 704 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,479 Speaker 1: to sleep, and if they realize that gets a rise 705 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,319 Speaker 1: out of you. Oh, now all of a sudden, I 706 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 1: have this power, etcetera, etcetera, then you have a whole 707 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 1: different fight. So it's still about, you know, having a routine, 708 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,799 Speaker 1: having some consistency, but babies over eighteen months, we've also 709 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:21,879 Speaker 1: got to figure out how to get them to buy 710 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,400 Speaker 1: in and want to sleep and let go of the 711 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,760 Speaker 1: power struggle if they're not sleeping. I have two favorite 712 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,400 Speaker 1: tools for that. One figuring out a really compelling incentive. 713 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: Toys are not compelling incentives for children. They just aren't 714 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:42,319 Speaker 1: because they have so much stuff in the moment they 715 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: don't actually care about that else, address or whatever it is. 716 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: So figuring out what's a better incentive. Usually it's quality 717 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,799 Speaker 1: time because they're just offsetting the same thing. Instead of 718 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:56,959 Speaker 1: me and mom having all of this time or Dad 719 00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 1: having all of this time to lay together at night 720 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,440 Speaker 1: while they're waiting for me to fall asleep, and now 721 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: I get two extra hours of mom instead of that, 722 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,719 Speaker 1: we're gonna have a really awesome date if I get 723 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 1: some stickers on my sticker chart, right, So figuring out 724 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:17,240 Speaker 1: a better incentive, and then the second most important component 725 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,080 Speaker 1: is letting go of the power struggle if they don't sleep, 726 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: just providing the space and time. If they don't sleep, 727 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: they don't sleep. We got them up, we get them out, 728 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: and I put a box of books next to their 729 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,360 Speaker 1: crib so they can reach through the bars and grab 730 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 1: some books. And you're kind of saying like, look, if 731 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,239 Speaker 1: you're not going to sleep, you at least need to 732 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,800 Speaker 1: be quiet and content in your room for this hour. 733 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,879 Speaker 1: And then you know what happens. Books aren't exciting enough 734 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 1: long term, so maybe they'll fight against you for like 735 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,759 Speaker 1: a week or so. But if they realize they're not 736 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,880 Speaker 1: really getting any extra benefit and they've already read these 737 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: twenty books a thousand times, like okay, fine, I am 738 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:55,440 Speaker 1: actually tired. I'm going to go back to sleep. And 739 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,560 Speaker 1: they haven't gotten a rise out of you, which I 740 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: think is the critical part. You talk about the our 741 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,840 Speaker 1: struggle because you know who's usually going to win that, 742 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 1: and it's so much the same with potty yes education, Yes, 743 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 1: so Chrissy, I could talk to you all day long, 744 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: actually all night long, but fortunately we'll all be sleeping 745 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,959 Speaker 1: tonight because we have such good sleep habits. So thank 746 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,279 Speaker 1: you so much for being with us. And tell our 747 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: listeners where they can find more information. Yes, so find 748 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,440 Speaker 1: me on Instagram at the Peaceful Sleeper, the dot peaceful 749 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,839 Speaker 1: dot Sleeper, and my website is the Peaceful Sleeper dot com. 750 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,560 Speaker 1: I've got books, I've got guides, I've got courses, I've 751 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: got everything you need for baby sleep up to adult sleep. 752 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 1: And I've even got a Peaceful Mama course to help 753 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,880 Speaker 1: us feel empowered in motherhood. Oh that's awesome. Well, thanks 754 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,480 Speaker 1: again and sweet dreams. Thank you. Thanks for having me 755 00:43:54,320 --> 00:44:00,680 Speaker 1: baby baby love. I need you, Oh how need you? 756 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,880 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Remember I'm always here for you. What 757 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,840 Speaker 1: to Expect is always here for you. We're all in 758 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,799 Speaker 1: this together. For more on what you heard on today's episode, 759 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,520 Speaker 1: visit what to Expect dot com slash podcasts. You can 760 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,319 Speaker 1: also check out What to Expect when You're Expecting, What 761 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 1: to Expect the First Year, and the what to Expect app. 762 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 1: And we want to hear from you. Connect with us 763 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,920 Speaker 1: on our community message board or on our social media. 764 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,879 Speaker 1: You can find me at Heidi Murkoff and Emma at 765 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,480 Speaker 1: Emma Being wt E, and of course at What to Expect. 766 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:43,240 Speaker 1: Baby Love is performed by Riley Peterer. What to Expect 767 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio. From more shows 768 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:50,000 Speaker 1: from I Heart Radio check out the I Heart Radio app, 769 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:54,360 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 770 00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:03,720 Speaker 1: In my Arms, what Don't just staying to Kneedjo, Baby Left, 771 00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:13,200 Speaker 1: Baby Loose h