WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Disappearance of Harold Holt 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.240 Thanking Sideways is not brought to you by the man 0:00:02.360 --> 0:00:06.520 with a nice standing behind you. Wait, wait a second, 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.200 I guess it is. I'm sure you've heard of this 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.639 cool new subscription service called how to Killer. If you haven't, 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:15.960 well listen in. This interactive investigation is deliver to your 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:18.880 doorstep each month. You should check it out at dub 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:21.560 dub dub how to killer dot com. Their form of 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:24.920 storytelling puts you in the serial killer's mind. It's like 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:28.000 you're living your favorite true crime series. They've created a 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:31.400 fictional world for true crime fans. You actually live inside 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:34.680 their story. And if investigating isn't your thing, well you 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:37.240 probably know somebody who would love this. As a gift 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.920 great for Valentine's Day. To help support our show, they've 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:43.239 offered a ten percent disc out to our listeners. Use 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:46.519 the code sideways and get ten percent off. Head on 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:49.680 over now to how to Killer dot com and register, 0:00:49.920 --> 0:01:00.240 and also don't forget to use the code sideways. Up 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:08.880 up the idea I don't know stories of things we 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:13.639 simply don't know the answer to. Hey there, and welcome 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:17.679 again to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Steve 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:22.880 as usually joined by Devin, whose words he's stealing, and Joe, 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:26.800 who is disgusted by the fact that Steve suddenly, without 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:29.319 knowing what he was doing, shorten a word because I 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:31.200 actually hate that stuff. I have no idea how that 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:34.520 came out of my face. No, I didn't mean to 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:39.920 do that. That really disturbs me. I'm oh, shut up. 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:43.679 This week, as usual, we have another mystery for you. 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.640 We're going to talk about the disappearance of Australian Prime 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:51.680 Minister Harold Holt, who disappeared on the seventeenth of December. 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:59.160 And this was, of course a listeners suggestion was suggested 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:03.080 by Alex Amy and Carla and David and Penelope and 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:05.120 a whole bunch of other people whose names we did 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:07.360 not write down because we literally ran out of room 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:10.239 in the spreadsheet. Yeah, unfortunately, sorry guys, but yeah, this 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:12.480 is one of our most it's one of our most 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:16.080 popular ones. And I gotta be honest with you, I 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:19.200 never intended to cover this story. I actually call this 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:23.679 Harold hold a k A. It's Joe's fault because there 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:26.640 was a little bit of a communication issue when it 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:29.000 came time to do the Harold Wilson episode, and I 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:30.680 thought we were doing Harold Holt that I did a 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.640 whole bunch of research. I could throw that away. I 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:37.080 couldn't throw it away because I found a freaking treasure troll. Sorry, 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:39.000 that was my fault. It turned out that it was 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:40.880 kind of an interesting case. It turned out it was 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:45.360 more interesting that I thought. Is just about our story. 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:48.400 So it's Cyberus, sharks and aliens. Doesn't get a lot 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.520 better than this, It's true. Sorry, thanks for spoiling it. 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:55.079 All right, you heard that. Well, let's let's talk about 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:58.200 the subject of our story tonight. Harold Holt he was 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:03.280 an Australian man. He was eight and went to law school. 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:07.680 After he graduated from law school, he practiced up until 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:11.560 the early sixties. But he was also very interested in 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:15.520 politics and was involved. He was a member of the 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:20.680 Liberal Party of Australia. And before anybody freaks out on me, yes, 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:23.720 I do know that the Liberal Party of Australia didn't 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:26.880 actually exist at the time, and instead he joined the 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:31.480 United Australia Party, but it was folded in and reconfigured 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:35.120 in so I just say he joined it. That sounds 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:38.400 good enough to me. Yeah, Parliamentary politics, it's if you're 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:40.120 an American it's kind of hard to fathom it, but 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:42.840 the parties come and go a lout quicker they do. 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:46.480 You know what's funny is that I was involved in 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:48.920 a high school program where I dealt a lot with 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:51.680 like parliamentary procedure, and I thought it was really interesting 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:55.360 at the time, and now, oh my good lord, it's 0:03:55.400 --> 0:04:01.600 like pulling teeth what. It's a long story. It was 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:04.560 basically debate. I have some follow up questions for off 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:09.760 the record. So Harold Holt, he's very He's very active 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:14.480 in his party, and he held quite a few different 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:17.440 positions over the course of his career, which spanned for 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:19.960 more than thirty years. He was a very four I 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:23.960 would consider him a very forward thinking and very liberal politician. 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:27.679 He during his time of service he was responsible for. 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:31.279 One of the things was the slow deconstruction of the 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:36.280 White Australia Policy, which was a policy. I shouldn't make 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:38.240 a laugh at that, but it was a policy that 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:42.960 was designed to prevent the immigration of anyone to Australia 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:47.120 who was not white. And it's one of those very big, 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:51.760 overarching government things that people in certain positions try to 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:55.039 protect themselves with. And if you're interested, I would read 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:57.400 about that, because it's got a very storied history. I 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:59.520 think sometimes we laugh at stuff like that because it 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:02.560 just seemed so insane that anybody would have ever done 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:05.960 something like that. How it seems absurd, but it did 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:08.480 happen and it was horrible. So well, yeah, a lot 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:12.719 of that stuff came out of the eugenics craze. Oh yeah, yeah, 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:14.960 that's one of many places. I was here in America too. 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:17.599 I mean the same thing. I mean, it's it's interesting 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:20.880 to read what people wrote in those days, and a 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:23.520 lot of white Americans, for example, well, I'm sure white 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:27.560 people in Australian various other plays, Europeans in general, white Cappians. 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:30.960 They thought, for example, that Italians were actually not white people, 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:33.440 which I guess they are a little bit darker skin 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:36.120 than we are, but I mean they thought like an 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:39.479 entirely different race. And the point that Joe is getting 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:41.920 at is what a series of foolishness like to all 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:45.360 of it's crazy. But so the white Australia policy was. 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:49.320 It was something that Harold Holt realized was not a 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:53.200 good idea, and he helped slowly deconstruct that through a 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:57.000 number of different ways. After about thirty years of service. 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:00.640 Harold Holt was elected leader of the Liberal Party and 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:03.520 that was in the beginning of nineteen sixty six. He 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:07.000 was in that put him into the Prime Minister position. 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:10.640 He was officially in office for only two years, but 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:12.960 he did a lot of things during that time, some good, 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:15.440 some bad. Uh. Some of the good things that he 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.800 did was again he put one of the final nails 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:22.880 in the White Australian policy. He pulled the Australian dollar 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:27.080 away from being tied to the British sterling, which I 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:29.560 know that the Australian dollar it only started in the 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:32.120 beginning of sixties six, but he just he broke it away. 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:34.360 That was one of the things he did for inflation reasons, 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.120 if I remember the reason he did it. But you know, 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:41.799 he also he did things for Aboriginal Australians for their rights. 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:44.080 So he did a lot of good things, but he 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:48.080 also did some not very good things, such as he 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:52.920 supported the United States President Lyndon B. Johnson in his 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:59.960 uh involvement in the Vietnam War and the first sideways 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.440 on him. Well yeah, but I mean it's like you say, 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:04.840 saying that Vietnam was not good. I realized a lot 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:06.880 of people think it was not good From from a 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:09.479 public views standpoint, it wasn't a good thing because in 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:13.400 the beginning the Australian people were for it, and he's 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:16.520 famously made the statement all the way with lb J, 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:20.160 which was apparently very offhanded, came back to bite him 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:22.840 in the butt. But you know, after a couple of 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:26.119 years and he keeps sending all these these guys over there, 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:31.000 it's public sentiment turned against it. So that's that's why 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:32.920 I just set here in the States. I mean, it's 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:35.280 not very much. So you know, it wasn't just in Australia. 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:37.960 I didn't mean it was like that didn't mean it 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:40.400 was like an evil thing to do, but it was like, 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:43.760 but yeah, it was not popular that in a long term, 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:47.320 it was not popular is the right word he used. Absolutely, 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:50.280 he does this, like I said, he's doing things that 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:52.440 are good, he's doing things that are bad. He is 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:55.000 he's a he's a human, he's a normal basically, he's 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:57.760 being a normal politician. Well also, you know, you gotta 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:00.600 remember too that he was ahead of a party which 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:04.120 you know, had certain policies in place, and so he 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:06.360 was kind of bound by most of that stuff. I mean, yeah, 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:09.120 that's part of it. And you know, so he was 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:11.120 doing what he thought was right for his people and 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:13.800 his country. But he was, like I said, making good 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:17.200 decisions and bad decisions. And that also extended again being 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:20.560 a human being to his personal life, and there was 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:22.720 a lot of what now we would refer to as 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:27.240 kind of questionable judgment. Yeah, that's exactly where I'm going. 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:32.200 It's perfectly fine because you'll hear about that stuff a lot. 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:34.360 Let's talk about a very important person in his life, 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.960 which would be his wife. Her name is Zara Holt. 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:43.400 Originally it's Nie Dickens. She and Harold Holt met. Did 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:45.040 I say that wrong? No, it's just a weird way 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:52.320 to say it, Okay. Her maiden name was YadA, YadA YadA. 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:56.439 They met in college and they dated, but they ended 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:58.719 up having a big fight at one point and they 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:01.679 broke up and she moved away and she ended up 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:06.240 in marrying another man. She had three children with him, 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:09.440 Nicholas was born in ninety seven, and then a set 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:12.680 of twins, Sam and Andrew, who were born in nineteen nine. 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:15.839 Things weren't such so great in their marriage, and eventually 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:20.000 she divorced James fell was the man that she had married. 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:24.760 She divorced James Fell and then ended up marrying Harold 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:30.560 Holt in nineteen And I'm not going to go into it, 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:34.040 but there is a speculation that maybe the twins were 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:37.559 actually Harold Holtz. I don't know. I don't know what's 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:40.360 based on. I didn't do any digging on that. Called 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:44.080 DNA testing. We can find out there is. I can 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:47.079 tell you one thing that I know about world politics 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:49.920 is there's a lot of speculation about who might be 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:54.559 the father or mother of who everybody, Yeah, just about anybody. 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.240 I've seen a lot recently with the whole Fidel Castro, 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:02.280 so that been really interesting. And then there's some speculation 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:05.520 over the actual parentage of Prince Henry. And I mean 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:08.960 it's just everybody just you know, is going to say 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:11.640 what they're going to say. Yeah, that's yeah. I think 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:14.920 Prince Henry looks a lot like Charles to me, I 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:18.960 don't know. I think I've got no comment. Okay, I 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:20.800 can never keep it straight. Which one is the older one? 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:27.760 That's m Williams because she's waiting for theosition Harry's the 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.439 red head. Okay, maybe it's William that I'm thinking about 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:34.880 Harry doesn't. Yeah, Harry is more reddish, share and you're right, 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:37.840 he does look a lot different. Yeah's ginger. Yeah, And like, 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:41.640 didn't Diana have a bodyguard who was a red headed guy? 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:45.199 So I would have never expected Princess Diana to make 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:48.199 an appearance in a Harold Whole episode, But apparently that 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.240 just happened part of the common Sorry, yeah, we're getting 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:53.040 a little off topic. Let's go back to the story. 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:55.360 Let's go back to the story. Let's talk about Harold Holt, 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:59.199 who was a ladies man, and, as is so often 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:01.560 the case with a guy who's calling the ladies man, 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:06.440 he was not faithful to his wife. He had quite 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:11.480 a few affairs. Zara was aware of them. She I 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:13.440 watched a great interview. I don't know if you guys 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.840 got a chance to watch the video with her, but 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:19.760 she talks very candidly about the fact that she knew 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:23.520 and she just looked the other way. You know, some 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:27.679 it's some people are she loved him, and that was 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:29.720 you know, that was kind of well, if you're gonna 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:32.080 take me, you're gonna take Harold, you're gonna take this 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:34.840 as as well. I don't get it, but that's the 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:37.480 decision she made, and that's the way it was. So 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:42.360 he was known to to have affairs. So that having 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:44.400 been said, because that that's something that will play into 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:47.280 part of our stuff when we come into theories. Let's 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:50.960 move to two days before Harold Holt disappears, which is 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:56.160 the fifteen of December, and he opens a novelope of 0:11:56.200 --> 0:12:00.600 her breakfast and there's five orange pips. No. Actually, but 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:05.280 he would have been for sixty. Yeah, he was in 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:07.520 the sixties because he was born in nineteen o eight. 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:13.400 This is nineteen six. He would have sh he had 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:18.079 to be sixty unless he was born yeah, okay, so 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:20.199 so okay, So we're looking at the fifteenth of December 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:24.600 nineteen sixty seven. And actually, before we go into the story, 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:28.080 I want to give a gigantic shout out set of 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:33.000 kudos to the National Archives of Australia because they did 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:38.679 an amazing job of preserving documentation about Harold's Hole and 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.520 making them accessible and making them which totally thinks that 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:45.199 we run into a lot. It's not that the documentation 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:47.240 isn't there, it's just that it's real hard for people 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:52.480 to get reading through that stuff. It is fantastic thank 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:54.880 you National Archives of Australia. And by the way, if 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:57.760 you're listening, send us an email because I want your 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:01.520 help getting some information on the envy joey. Uh. She 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:04.959 still hadn't let that one go. Okay, So on the 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:09.320 fift he travels from Melbourne to his home in Ports 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:13.520 which is on the southern coast of Australia. He's there 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:16.640 for a night and then he that night he goes 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.120 over to a friend's house or actually it's a neighbor's 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:23.920 house to have drinks. That neighbor's name is Marjorie Gillespie, 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.800 and Marjorie Gillespie is one of the players in our 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:31.400 story because not only was she a neighbor, he was 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:34.960 also having an affair with her. And that's confirmed she 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:37.760 has she admitted it eventually, or did come out and 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:42.200 say yes that actually a Chinese spy in an alien too. 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:46.079 Write No, actually those two didn't happen. You need to 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.800 stop reading somebody comics. So the next day, the sixteen 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:53.360 wasn't all that eventful. Harold Holt goes over to a 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:57.280 friend's and plays a tennis so we didn't apparently play 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.640 a very good game. Wasn't up to his usual stands anyway, 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:04.600 because he had suffered a shoulder injury, which it sounds 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:08.079 like he had either finished treatment for or was still 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.319 getting treatment for. Stanny Is it was actually an old 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:14.000 injury that just flared up from time to time. I 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:17.640 honestly cannot say which it is because I hear it 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.640 back and forth and I can't. I never I've looked 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:22.800 through all those archived documents that I could never find 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:25.880 anything that confirms it. I know it exists because the 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:29.600 man that he played tennis with was a doctor who 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:32.920 talked about it but in to the police later on. 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:36.880 But I don't know exactly where he got that injury. 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:41.880 But he then later that day his stepson and the 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:46.000 stepson's wife come over, bring his granddaughter over for a 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:48.960 little while, and then they leave. So not really a 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:54.520 big day. His stepson possible son, Yes, it was one 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:58.640 of the twins. I don't remember which twin, but it 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:00.840 was one of the twin boys it had come over. 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:02.560 I can't but like I said, I don't remember which 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:04.840 one of the two. But then we moved to the 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:09.440 seventeen and on that day Harold Holt got up. He 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:13.880 talked to his housekeeper slash maid who brought him breakfast, 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:16.560 and he said he had plans and what those plans 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:19.720 were was he was going to watch the cutter called 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:25.320 the Lively Lady, which was piloted by Alec Rose, arrive 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:29.160 and sail through the port. Philip Head, what what's the 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:33.680 what's the cutter? Suth? Cutter is a ship. It's a sailboat. 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:37.560 It's so Alec Rose was sailing around the world by 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:42.200 himself in nineteen sixties six and sixty seven or no, 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:48.120 sixties seven to sixty eight. His boat is actually still around. 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.560 It's in a marine I think as a kind of 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:54.720 a museum piece. You can actually go on to it. 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:57.440 But he was sailing that boat around the world, so 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:00.720 it was something to see. Yeah, oh yeah, I know 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:03.280 a lot of people turned out to answer you a question. 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:05.760 What the cutter is is? It's a It's a sail rig. 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:07.680 You know what a sloop is. A slip is a 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:09.960 single masted sail boat that's got a that's got a 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:13.920 mainsail and a four sail. Right, so cutter rig is 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:17.440 also single masted. These the masters that have been stepped 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:19.600 a little further back and it has two head sails 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:21.760 instead of one, so that's the difference. That's the cutter. 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:23.880 And by the way, when he when he did is 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:25.960 around the World cruise in sixty seven, when he came 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:28.440 into Australia, it was no longer a cutter because he 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:30.040 had added a mask to it. It was then it 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.400 was at that time a catch. So catches a is 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.400 a two masted rig with the tall mast in front 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:38.360 and the short mast in the rear. So I just apologized, 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:40.440 show you've been talking and I've understood none of that, 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:44.360 but I believe you. I don't know enough that I 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:46.680 understand that he took it from one to two mass 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:48.640 and that changed the style of the boat. But after 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:52.880 they no longer a cutter. It's catch. So the point 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:54.880 is this is a this is a thing to see. 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:59.520 And what he's gonna do is he goes ahead and 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:02.880 he called os Marjorie Gillespie and he invites her to 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:07.040 join him to watch this happen. She says, yeah, sure, 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:08.760 So he shows up at her house at about eleven 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:12.520 o'clock in the morning and then her and her daughter Viner, 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.159 as well as two young men that were at the house, 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:21.639 Martin Simpson and Alan Stewart. Simpson was dating Viner the daughter, 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:24.800 and then Alan Stewart was just a family friend. But 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:28.160 the group go to a spot that Harold Holt has 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:32.040 access to because of his position. It's not it's not 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:35.560 open land that anybody can go to. It's inside of 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:39.680 its military land from what the way. Yeah, and they 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.560 had to go through like an mp A post and 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:45.080 you know they raised the gate and let you go through. 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.000 It was that kind of scenario. But he had friends 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:50.560 in high places and so he could go there. Yes, 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.879 wasn't he the prime minister? Yes? Sorry, I just like that. 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.000 You're like, as the prime minister, he had friends and 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:00.600 high place. He was the high place. But prime minister 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:03.560 he would have access to anywhere. But but well, I 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.679 mean he technically shouldn't have had access to it, is 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:09.719 what I understand. Like, yeah, he could go there, but 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:13.480 he really shouldn't have been told. Sure, Harold maybe like 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.679 swim there right on official business he would have been 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:20.600 allowed access, correct, but not on a recreational basis. That's 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:22.680 why I see it. Sorry, I just love that term 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:28.040 though at the prime minister he had friends in high places. Ye. 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:33.880 So so the place that they're going is um Cheviot Beach. Everyone, 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:36.760 so they go there, they parked, they walked down to 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:39.960 the water, and it's at this point that from all 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:42.240 of the records of the conversations that have been had 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:44.320 with the people after the fact, everybody knows that the 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:45.840 seas were kind of rough. There was a bunch of 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:49.239 driftwood in the water. It wasn't the nicest day at 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:55.240 the beach. Martin Simpson. December, but it's Australia, so it's 0:18:55.240 --> 0:19:02.520 December there, okay, on the side down summer um. So 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:06.680 Martin Simpson, he walks into the water, but he stops 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:09.200 when he's knee deep because he can feel an undertow. 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:13.920 Harold Holt, however, says to some at least one person, 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:16.560 if not multiple people in the party, I know this 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.560 beach like the back of my hand, at which point 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:22.959 he walks into the water and begins swimming away, presumably 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:26.360 not in like his suit. He's in a swimsuit. He's 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.399 in a swim trunks. Yeah, what did you think I 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:35.440 just pictured him. No, he's in He's in his swimsuit. 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:37.840 Was the end of the sixties, man, It was like 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:42.800 in a free love And actually that wasn't what was happening, 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:49.480 especially on a military base. Probably, But so then Alan Steward, 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:52.040 he says, well, you know, I've got If Harold Holt 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:53.720 is going to do this, I gotta follow him into 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:57.200 the water. But he stops when he's up to about 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.040 his armpits in the water because he can feel the 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.359 undertow on his legs and he can feel it getting stronger, 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:07.640 so he doesn't go in. Now I should explain here 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:11.080 real briefly, that Harold Holt was in the water a lot. 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:13.960 It wasn't as if he was some old guy who 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:17.480 was completely out of shape and had no reason to 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:22.040 be in the serf swim a lot. He loves spear fishing, 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:25.600 like he was in the water and in relatively good shape. 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:28.639 So just so you don't think, well he's he's just 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:30.879 got You shouldn't been there. That's not what's going on 0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:35.320 at all. So Marjorie, Marjorie Gillespie, she stayed on the beach, 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:38.960 and she actually says that she watched Harold Holt swim out. 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:44.440 She said that, in her words, she watched him until 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:48.520 the waters around him got very turbulent and appeared to 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:51.879 almost boil. I mean, I guess that's extremely rough seas, 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:55.359 is what she's describing at which point she lost sight 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:58.879 of him. Alan Stewart had just walked and walked up 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:01.800 to her just you know, moments or a minute after that, 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:05.080 and he started scanning the water with her looking for 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.680 Harold Holp when they couldn't see him, and they hadn't 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:12.040 spotted him. After several minutes, they had a feeling that 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:16.800 something bad was going on, and so Alan went ahead 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:19.600 and ran back up to the cars that they had 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:23.679 driven there, and drove to the guard shack that they 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:27.760 had been given entry via. Really, let's set off a 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:31.560 search and rescue operation basically immediately. I kind of like 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:34.399 the concept of like, oh yeah, of course, Mr Prime Minister, 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:36.679 no problem, Yeah, there will be no safety net for 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:39.240 you whatsoever. You just go do whatever you want a problem. 0:21:40.280 --> 0:21:42.760 I love that concept. Actually, it was a little more 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:45.440 relaxed back and then must especially I mean by that time, 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:47.520 of course, in America it was all secret service all 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:49.920 the time, you know, but in other countries not nearly, 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:53.520 because we had had the JFK assassinations. Yeah, absolutely, but 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:58.200 Australia was still let's fine, no, do what you want, 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:02.800 come and get me Chinese good level, okay, So yep. 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:05.920 So the search of rescue show up within it sounds 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:10.280 like to me within twenty to forty minutes. Divers. There's 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:14.239 three divers around the scene. You would, yeah, well, these 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:16.560 guys happened to be close by, and so they showed up. 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:18.840 But they said that when they got in the water, 0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:22.320 the seas were so rough that they were being shoved 0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:26.800 back and forth in underwater. They had almost no visibility 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:28.800 because of all the sand that was being kicked up. 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:31.840 And if you watch the film footage of them, they've 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:35.760 actually got ropes tied to themselves anchored on the beach 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:40.399 so that the undertow doesn't suck them out. In a way, 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:42.840 the turbulence and shallow water near a beach is a 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:45.560 lot different you getting deeper water, it's a lot nicer, 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:49.800 but close to the shore it is pretty rough and 0:22:49.840 --> 0:22:51.920 all kinds of stuff. Whereas you know, go out a 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:54.480 couple hundred feet and it's not nearly as bad, right, 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:56.480 But they were having a hard time getting out anywhere, 0:22:56.560 --> 0:23:00.640 just because it was so so bad. There are then then, 0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:03.440