Speaker 1: Thanking Sideways is not brought to you by the man
Speaker 1: with a nice standing behind you. Wait, wait a second,
Speaker 1: I guess it is. I'm sure you've heard of this
Speaker 1: cool new subscription service called how to Killer. If you haven't,
Speaker 1: well listen in. This interactive investigation is deliver to your
Speaker 1: doorstep each month. You should check it out at dub
Speaker 1: dub dub how to killer dot com. Their form of
Speaker 1: storytelling puts you in the serial killer's mind. It's like
Speaker 1: you're living your favorite true crime series. They've created a
Speaker 1: fictional world for true crime fans. You actually live inside
Speaker 1: their story. And if investigating isn't your thing, well you
Speaker 1: probably know somebody who would love this. As a gift
Speaker 1: great for Valentine's Day. To help support our show, they've
Speaker 1: offered a ten percent disc out to our listeners. Use
Speaker 1: the code sideways and get ten percent off. Head on
Speaker 1: over now to how to Killer dot com and register,
Speaker 1: and also don't forget to use the code sideways. Up
Speaker 1: up the idea I don't know stories of things we
Speaker 1: simply don't know the answer to. Hey there, and welcome
Speaker 1: again to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Steve
Speaker 1: as usually joined by Devin, whose words he's stealing, and Joe,
Speaker 1: who is disgusted by the fact that Steve suddenly, without
Speaker 1: knowing what he was doing, shorten a word because I
Speaker 1: actually hate that stuff. I have no idea how that
Speaker 1: came out of my face. No, I didn't mean to
Speaker 1: do that. That really disturbs me. I'm oh, shut up.
Speaker 1: This week, as usual, we have another mystery for you.
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the disappearance of Australian Prime
Speaker 1: Minister Harold Holt, who disappeared on the seventeenth of December.
Speaker 1: And this was, of course a listeners suggestion was suggested
Speaker 1: by Alex Amy and Carla and David and Penelope and
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of other people whose names we did
Speaker 1: not write down because we literally ran out of room
Speaker 1: in the spreadsheet. Yeah, unfortunately, sorry guys, but yeah, this
Speaker 1: is one of our most it's one of our most
Speaker 1: popular ones. And I gotta be honest with you, I
Speaker 1: never intended to cover this story. I actually call this
Speaker 1: Harold hold a k A. It's Joe's fault because there
Speaker 1: was a little bit of a communication issue when it
Speaker 1: came time to do the Harold Wilson episode, and I
Speaker 1: thought we were doing Harold Holt that I did a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of research. I could throw that away. I
Speaker 1: couldn't throw it away because I found a freaking treasure troll. Sorry,
Speaker 1: that was my fault. It turned out that it was
Speaker 1: kind of an interesting case. It turned out it was
Speaker 1: more interesting that I thought. Is just about our story.
Speaker 1: So it's Cyberus, sharks and aliens. Doesn't get a lot
Speaker 1: better than this, It's true. Sorry, thanks for spoiling it.
Speaker 1: All right, you heard that. Well, let's let's talk about
Speaker 1: the subject of our story tonight. Harold Holt he was
Speaker 1: an Australian man. He was eight and went to law school.
Speaker 1: After he graduated from law school, he practiced up until
Speaker 1: the early sixties. But he was also very interested in
Speaker 1: politics and was involved. He was a member of the
Speaker 1: Liberal Party of Australia. And before anybody freaks out on me, yes,
Speaker 1: I do know that the Liberal Party of Australia didn't
Speaker 1: actually exist at the time, and instead he joined the
Speaker 1: United Australia Party, but it was folded in and reconfigured
Speaker 1: in so I just say he joined it. That sounds
Speaker 1: good enough to me. Yeah, Parliamentary politics, it's if you're
Speaker 1: an American it's kind of hard to fathom it, but
Speaker 1: the parties come and go a lout quicker they do.
Speaker 1: You know what's funny is that I was involved in
Speaker 1: a high school program where I dealt a lot with
Speaker 1: like parliamentary procedure, and I thought it was really interesting
Speaker 1: at the time, and now, oh my good lord, it's
Speaker 1: like pulling teeth what. It's a long story. It was
Speaker 1: basically debate. I have some follow up questions for off
Speaker 1: the record. So Harold Holt, he's very He's very active
Speaker 1: in his party, and he held quite a few different
Speaker 1: positions over the course of his career, which spanned for
Speaker 1: more than thirty years. He was a very four I
Speaker 1: would consider him a very forward thinking and very liberal politician.
Speaker 1: He during his time of service he was responsible for.
Speaker 1: One of the things was the slow deconstruction of the
Speaker 1: White Australia Policy, which was a policy. I shouldn't make
Speaker 1: a laugh at that, but it was a policy that
Speaker 1: was designed to prevent the immigration of anyone to Australia
Speaker 1: who was not white. And it's one of those very big,
Speaker 1: overarching government things that people in certain positions try to
Speaker 1: protect themselves with. And if you're interested, I would read
Speaker 1: about that, because it's got a very storied history. I
Speaker 1: think sometimes we laugh at stuff like that because it
Speaker 1: just seemed so insane that anybody would have ever done
Speaker 1: something like that. How it seems absurd, but it did
Speaker 1: happen and it was horrible. So well, yeah, a lot
Speaker 1: of that stuff came out of the eugenics craze. Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's one of many places. I was here in America too.
Speaker 1: I mean the same thing. I mean, it's it's interesting
Speaker 1: to read what people wrote in those days, and a
Speaker 1: lot of white Americans, for example, well, I'm sure white
Speaker 1: people in Australian various other plays, Europeans in general, white Cappians.
Speaker 1: They thought, for example, that Italians were actually not white people,
Speaker 1: which I guess they are a little bit darker skin
Speaker 1: than we are, but I mean they thought like an
Speaker 1: entirely different race. And the point that Joe is getting
Speaker 1: at is what a series of foolishness like to all
Speaker 1: of it's crazy. But so the white Australia policy was.
Speaker 1: It was something that Harold Holt realized was not a
Speaker 1: good idea, and he helped slowly deconstruct that through a
Speaker 1: number of different ways. After about thirty years of service.
Speaker 1: Harold Holt was elected leader of the Liberal Party and
Speaker 1: that was in the beginning of nineteen sixty six. He
Speaker 1: was in that put him into the Prime Minister position.
Speaker 1: He was officially in office for only two years, but
Speaker 1: he did a lot of things during that time, some good,
Speaker 1: some bad. Uh. Some of the good things that he
Speaker 1: did was again he put one of the final nails
Speaker 1: in the White Australian policy. He pulled the Australian dollar
Speaker 1: away from being tied to the British sterling, which I
Speaker 1: know that the Australian dollar it only started in the
Speaker 1: beginning of sixties six, but he just he broke it away.
Speaker 1: That was one of the things he did for inflation reasons,
Speaker 1: if I remember the reason he did it. But you know,
Speaker 1: he also he did things for Aboriginal Australians for their rights.
Speaker 1: So he did a lot of good things, but he
Speaker 1: also did some not very good things, such as he
Speaker 1: supported the United States President Lyndon B. Johnson in his
Speaker 1: uh involvement in the Vietnam War and the first sideways
Speaker 1: on him. Well yeah, but I mean it's like you say,
Speaker 1: saying that Vietnam was not good. I realized a lot
Speaker 1: of people think it was not good From from a
Speaker 1: public views standpoint, it wasn't a good thing because in
Speaker 1: the beginning the Australian people were for it, and he's
Speaker 1: famously made the statement all the way with lb J,
Speaker 1: which was apparently very offhanded, came back to bite him
Speaker 1: in the butt. But you know, after a couple of
Speaker 1: years and he keeps sending all these these guys over there,
Speaker 1: it's public sentiment turned against it. So that's that's why
Speaker 1: I just set here in the States. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: not very much. So you know, it wasn't just in Australia.
Speaker 1: I didn't mean it was like that didn't mean it
Speaker 1: was like an evil thing to do, but it was like,
Speaker 1: but yeah, it was not popular that in a long term,
Speaker 1: it was not popular is the right word he used. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: he does this, like I said, he's doing things that
Speaker 1: are good, he's doing things that are bad. He is
Speaker 1: he's a he's a human, he's a normal basically, he's
Speaker 1: being a normal politician. Well also, you know, you gotta
Speaker 1: remember too that he was ahead of a party which
Speaker 1: you know, had certain policies in place, and so he
Speaker 1: was kind of bound by most of that stuff. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's part of it. And you know, so he was
Speaker 1: doing what he thought was right for his people and
Speaker 1: his country. But he was, like I said, making good
Speaker 1: decisions and bad decisions. And that also extended again being
Speaker 1: a human being to his personal life, and there was
Speaker 1: a lot of what now we would refer to as
Speaker 1: kind of questionable judgment. Yeah, that's exactly where I'm going.
Speaker 1: It's perfectly fine because you'll hear about that stuff a lot.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about a very important person in his life,
Speaker 1: which would be his wife. Her name is Zara Holt.
Speaker 1: Originally it's Nie Dickens. She and Harold Holt met. Did
Speaker 1: I say that wrong? No, it's just a weird way
Speaker 1: to say it, Okay. Her maiden name was YadA, YadA YadA.
Speaker 1: They met in college and they dated, but they ended
Speaker 1: up having a big fight at one point and they
Speaker 1: broke up and she moved away and she ended up
Speaker 1: in marrying another man. She had three children with him,
Speaker 1: Nicholas was born in ninety seven, and then a set
Speaker 1: of twins, Sam and Andrew, who were born in nineteen nine.
Speaker 1: Things weren't such so great in their marriage, and eventually
Speaker 1: she divorced James fell was the man that she had married.
Speaker 1: She divorced James Fell and then ended up marrying Harold
Speaker 1: Holt in nineteen And I'm not going to go into it,
Speaker 1: but there is a speculation that maybe the twins were
Speaker 1: actually Harold Holtz. I don't know. I don't know what's
Speaker 1: based on. I didn't do any digging on that. Called
Speaker 1: DNA testing. We can find out there is. I can
Speaker 1: tell you one thing that I know about world politics
Speaker 1: is there's a lot of speculation about who might be
Speaker 1: the father or mother of who everybody, Yeah, just about anybody.
Speaker 1: I've seen a lot recently with the whole Fidel Castro,
Speaker 1: so that been really interesting. And then there's some speculation
Speaker 1: over the actual parentage of Prince Henry. And I mean
Speaker 1: it's just everybody just you know, is going to say
Speaker 1: what they're going to say. Yeah, that's yeah. I think
Speaker 1: Prince Henry looks a lot like Charles to me, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I think I've got no comment. Okay, I
Speaker 1: can never keep it straight. Which one is the older one?
Speaker 1: That's m Williams because she's waiting for theosition Harry's the
Speaker 1: red head. Okay, maybe it's William that I'm thinking about
Speaker 1: Harry doesn't. Yeah, Harry is more reddish, share and you're right,
Speaker 1: he does look a lot different. Yeah's ginger. Yeah, And like,
Speaker 1: didn't Diana have a bodyguard who was a red headed guy?
Speaker 1: So I would have never expected Princess Diana to make
Speaker 1: an appearance in a Harold Whole episode, But apparently that
Speaker 1: just happened part of the common Sorry, yeah, we're getting
Speaker 1: a little off topic. Let's go back to the story.
Speaker 1: Let's go back to the story. Let's talk about Harold Holt,
Speaker 1: who was a ladies man, and, as is so often
Speaker 1: the case with a guy who's calling the ladies man,
Speaker 1: he was not faithful to his wife. He had quite
Speaker 1: a few affairs. Zara was aware of them. She I
Speaker 1: watched a great interview. I don't know if you guys
Speaker 1: got a chance to watch the video with her, but
Speaker 1: she talks very candidly about the fact that she knew
Speaker 1: and she just looked the other way. You know, some
Speaker 1: it's some people are she loved him, and that was
Speaker 1: you know, that was kind of well, if you're gonna
Speaker 1: take me, you're gonna take Harold, you're gonna take this
Speaker 1: as as well. I don't get it, but that's the
Speaker 1: decision she made, and that's the way it was. So
Speaker 1: he was known to to have affairs. So that having
Speaker 1: been said, because that that's something that will play into
Speaker 1: part of our stuff when we come into theories. Let's
Speaker 1: move to two days before Harold Holt disappears, which is
Speaker 1: the fifteen of December, and he opens a novelope of
Speaker 1: her breakfast and there's five orange pips. No. Actually, but
Speaker 1: he would have been for sixty. Yeah, he was in
Speaker 1: the sixties because he was born in nineteen o eight.
Speaker 1: This is nineteen six. He would have sh he had
Speaker 1: to be sixty unless he was born yeah, okay, so
Speaker 1: so okay, So we're looking at the fifteenth of December
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven. And actually, before we go into the story,
Speaker 1: I want to give a gigantic shout out set of
Speaker 1: kudos to the National Archives of Australia because they did
Speaker 1: an amazing job of preserving documentation about Harold's Hole and
Speaker 1: making them accessible and making them which totally thinks that
Speaker 1: we run into a lot. It's not that the documentation
Speaker 1: isn't there, it's just that it's real hard for people
Speaker 1: to get reading through that stuff. It is fantastic thank
Speaker 1: you National Archives of Australia. And by the way, if
Speaker 1: you're listening, send us an email because I want your
Speaker 1: help getting some information on the envy joey. Uh. She
Speaker 1: still hadn't let that one go. Okay, So on the
Speaker 1: fift he travels from Melbourne to his home in Ports
Speaker 1: which is on the southern coast of Australia. He's there
Speaker 1: for a night and then he that night he goes
Speaker 1: over to a friend's house or actually it's a neighbor's
Speaker 1: house to have drinks. That neighbor's name is Marjorie Gillespie,
Speaker 1: and Marjorie Gillespie is one of the players in our
Speaker 1: story because not only was she a neighbor, he was
Speaker 1: also having an affair with her. And that's confirmed she
Speaker 1: has she admitted it eventually, or did come out and
Speaker 1: say yes that actually a Chinese spy in an alien too.
Speaker 1: Write No, actually those two didn't happen. You need to
Speaker 1: stop reading somebody comics. So the next day, the sixteen
Speaker 1: wasn't all that eventful. Harold Holt goes over to a
Speaker 1: friend's and plays a tennis so we didn't apparently play
Speaker 1: a very good game. Wasn't up to his usual stands anyway,
Speaker 1: because he had suffered a shoulder injury, which it sounds
Speaker 1: like he had either finished treatment for or was still
Speaker 1: getting treatment for. Stanny Is it was actually an old
Speaker 1: injury that just flared up from time to time. I
Speaker 1: honestly cannot say which it is because I hear it
Speaker 1: back and forth and I can't. I never I've looked
Speaker 1: through all those archived documents that I could never find
Speaker 1: anything that confirms it. I know it exists because the
Speaker 1: man that he played tennis with was a doctor who
Speaker 1: talked about it but in to the police later on.
Speaker 1: But I don't know exactly where he got that injury.
Speaker 1: But he then later that day his stepson and the
Speaker 1: stepson's wife come over, bring his granddaughter over for a
Speaker 1: little while, and then they leave. So not really a
Speaker 1: big day. His stepson possible son, Yes, it was one
Speaker 1: of the twins. I don't remember which twin, but it
Speaker 1: was one of the twin boys it had come over.
Speaker 1: I can't but like I said, I don't remember which
Speaker 1: one of the two. But then we moved to the
Speaker 1: seventeen and on that day Harold Holt got up. He
Speaker 1: talked to his housekeeper slash maid who brought him breakfast,
Speaker 1: and he said he had plans and what those plans
Speaker 1: were was he was going to watch the cutter called
Speaker 1: the Lively Lady, which was piloted by Alec Rose, arrive
Speaker 1: and sail through the port. Philip Head, what what's the
Speaker 1: what's the cutter? Suth? Cutter is a ship. It's a sailboat.
Speaker 1: It's so Alec Rose was sailing around the world by
Speaker 1: himself in nineteen sixties six and sixty seven or no,
Speaker 1: sixties seven to sixty eight. His boat is actually still around.
Speaker 1: It's in a marine I think as a kind of
Speaker 1: a museum piece. You can actually go on to it.
Speaker 1: But he was sailing that boat around the world, so
Speaker 1: it was something to see. Yeah, oh yeah, I know
Speaker 1: a lot of people turned out to answer you a question.
Speaker 1: What the cutter is is? It's a It's a sail rig.
Speaker 1: You know what a sloop is. A slip is a
Speaker 1: single masted sail boat that's got a that's got a
Speaker 1: mainsail and a four sail. Right, so cutter rig is
Speaker 1: also single masted. These the masters that have been stepped
Speaker 1: a little further back and it has two head sails
Speaker 1: instead of one, so that's the difference. That's the cutter.
Speaker 1: And by the way, when he when he did is
Speaker 1: around the World cruise in sixty seven, when he came
Speaker 1: into Australia, it was no longer a cutter because he
Speaker 1: had added a mask to it. It was then it
Speaker 1: was at that time a catch. So catches a is
Speaker 1: a two masted rig with the tall mast in front
Speaker 1: and the short mast in the rear. So I just apologized,
Speaker 1: show you've been talking and I've understood none of that,
Speaker 1: but I believe you. I don't know enough that I
Speaker 1: understand that he took it from one to two mass
Speaker 1: and that changed the style of the boat. But after
Speaker 1: they no longer a cutter. It's catch. So the point
Speaker 1: is this is a this is a thing to see.
Speaker 1: And what he's gonna do is he goes ahead and
Speaker 1: he called os Marjorie Gillespie and he invites her to
Speaker 1: join him to watch this happen. She says, yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: So he shows up at her house at about eleven
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning and then her and her daughter Viner,
Speaker 1: as well as two young men that were at the house,
Speaker 1: Martin Simpson and Alan Stewart. Simpson was dating Viner the daughter,
Speaker 1: and then Alan Stewart was just a family friend. But
Speaker 1: the group go to a spot that Harold Holt has
Speaker 1: access to because of his position. It's not it's not
Speaker 1: open land that anybody can go to. It's inside of
Speaker 1: its military land from what the way. Yeah, and they
Speaker 1: had to go through like an mp A post and
Speaker 1: you know they raised the gate and let you go through.
Speaker 1: It was that kind of scenario. But he had friends
Speaker 1: in high places and so he could go there. Yes,
Speaker 1: wasn't he the prime minister? Yes? Sorry, I just like that.
Speaker 1: You're like, as the prime minister, he had friends and
Speaker 1: high place. He was the high place. But prime minister
Speaker 1: he would have access to anywhere. But but well, I
Speaker 1: mean he technically shouldn't have had access to it, is
Speaker 1: what I understand. Like, yeah, he could go there, but
Speaker 1: he really shouldn't have been told. Sure, Harold maybe like
Speaker 1: swim there right on official business he would have been
Speaker 1: allowed access, correct, but not on a recreational basis. That's
Speaker 1: why I see it. Sorry, I just love that term
Speaker 1: though at the prime minister he had friends in high places. Ye.
Speaker 1: So so the place that they're going is um Cheviot Beach. Everyone,
Speaker 1: so they go there, they parked, they walked down to
Speaker 1: the water, and it's at this point that from all
Speaker 1: of the records of the conversations that have been had
Speaker 1: with the people after the fact, everybody knows that the
Speaker 1: seas were kind of rough. There was a bunch of
Speaker 1: driftwood in the water. It wasn't the nicest day at
Speaker 1: the beach. Martin Simpson. December, but it's Australia, so it's
Speaker 1: December there, okay, on the side down summer um. So
Speaker 1: Martin Simpson, he walks into the water, but he stops
Speaker 1: when he's knee deep because he can feel an undertow.
Speaker 1: Harold Holt, however, says to some at least one person,
Speaker 1: if not multiple people in the party, I know this
Speaker 1: beach like the back of my hand, at which point
Speaker 1: he walks into the water and begins swimming away, presumably
Speaker 1: not in like his suit. He's in a swimsuit. He's
Speaker 1: in a swim trunks. Yeah, what did you think I
Speaker 1: just pictured him. No, he's in He's in his swimsuit.
Speaker 1: Was the end of the sixties, man, It was like
Speaker 1: in a free love And actually that wasn't what was happening,
Speaker 1: especially on a military base. Probably, But so then Alan Steward,
Speaker 1: he says, well, you know, I've got If Harold Holt
Speaker 1: is going to do this, I gotta follow him into
Speaker 1: the water. But he stops when he's up to about
Speaker 1: his armpits in the water because he can feel the
Speaker 1: undertow on his legs and he can feel it getting stronger,
Speaker 1: so he doesn't go in. Now I should explain here
Speaker 1: real briefly, that Harold Holt was in the water a lot.
Speaker 1: It wasn't as if he was some old guy who
Speaker 1: was completely out of shape and had no reason to
Speaker 1: be in the serf swim a lot. He loves spear fishing,
Speaker 1: like he was in the water and in relatively good shape.
Speaker 1: So just so you don't think, well he's he's just
Speaker 1: got You shouldn't been there. That's not what's going on
Speaker 1: at all. So Marjorie, Marjorie Gillespie, she stayed on the beach,
Speaker 1: and she actually says that she watched Harold Holt swim out.
Speaker 1: She said that, in her words, she watched him until
Speaker 1: the waters around him got very turbulent and appeared to
Speaker 1: almost boil. I mean, I guess that's extremely rough seas,
Speaker 1: is what she's describing at which point she lost sight
Speaker 1: of him. Alan Stewart had just walked and walked up
Speaker 1: to her just you know, moments or a minute after that,
Speaker 1: and he started scanning the water with her looking for
Speaker 1: Harold Holp when they couldn't see him, and they hadn't
Speaker 1: spotted him. After several minutes, they had a feeling that
Speaker 1: something bad was going on, and so Alan went ahead
Speaker 1: and ran back up to the cars that they had
Speaker 1: driven there, and drove to the guard shack that they
Speaker 1: had been given entry via. Really, let's set off a
Speaker 1: search and rescue operation basically immediately. I kind of like
Speaker 1: the concept of like, oh yeah, of course, Mr Prime Minister,
Speaker 1: no problem, Yeah, there will be no safety net for
Speaker 1: you whatsoever. You just go do whatever you want a problem.
Speaker 1: I love that concept. Actually, it was a little more
Speaker 1: relaxed back and then must especially I mean by that time,
Speaker 1: of course, in America it was all secret service all
Speaker 1: the time, you know, but in other countries not nearly,
Speaker 1: because we had had the JFK assassinations. Yeah, absolutely, but
Speaker 1: Australia was still let's fine, no, do what you want,
Speaker 1: come and get me Chinese good level, okay, So yep.
Speaker 1: So the search of rescue show up within it sounds
Speaker 1: like to me within twenty to forty minutes. Divers. There's
Speaker 1: three divers around the scene. You would, yeah, well, these
Speaker 1: guys happened to be close by, and so they showed up.
Speaker 1: But they said that when they got in the water,
Speaker 1: the seas were so rough that they were being shoved
Speaker 1: back and forth in underwater. They had almost no visibility
Speaker 1: because of all the sand that was being kicked up.
Speaker 1: And if you watch the film footage of them, they've
Speaker 1: actually got ropes tied to themselves anchored on the beach
Speaker 1: so that the undertow doesn't suck them out. In a way,
Speaker 1: the turbulence and shallow water near a beach is a
Speaker 1: lot different you getting deeper water, it's a lot nicer,
Speaker 1: but close to the shore it is pretty rough and
Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff. Whereas you know, go out a
Speaker 1: couple hundred feet and it's not nearly as bad, right,
Speaker 1: But they were having a hard time getting out anywhere,
Speaker 1: just because it was so so bad. There are then then,
Speaker 1: of course more people show up. They're in boats there
Speaker 1: on land looking as well as in helicopters that are
Speaker 1: flying over the area looking for Harold Holt. They continue
Speaker 1: to look until it until dark. The next day they
Speaker 1: go back and they continue the same operation looking for him,
Speaker 1: and at the close of the second day, which would
Speaker 1: have been the eighteen, they've found nobody. On the nineteen
Speaker 1: the government comes out and officially announces that they presume
Speaker 1: that Harold Holt is dead and on the two December
Speaker 1: of funeral is held for him. There it is. It
Speaker 1: is kind of quick. There was no official investigation, partially
Speaker 1: because everybody pretty pretty much figured that he got sucked
Speaker 1: under and he drowned when his body was pulled out
Speaker 1: to see. Also there's there was the law at the
Speaker 1: time in Australia prevented the corner from launching an investigation
Speaker 1: without a body, and that that sets that sets conspiracy
Speaker 1: theorists hair on fire. Now, eventually the laws were changed
Speaker 1: and in two thousand and three they did launch an investigation,
Speaker 1: you know, almost four thirty some years later, at which
Speaker 1: point they concluded that he drowned and he was his
Speaker 1: body was probably pulled out to sea or was taken
Speaker 1: by sharks, because there are sharks in the area. It's
Speaker 1: Australia where everything is trying to eat you. So actually
Speaker 1: I guess the study the inquest concluded in two thousand five,
Speaker 1: not two thousand threes when they started a bunch of inquests.
Speaker 1: But Harold Holds finished in two thousand and five. But
Speaker 1: you know, so that's the official story. However, the Internet
Speaker 1: does not believe that, and the world has come up
Speaker 1: with a million versions of what actually happened to Harold
Speaker 1: does the internet? Is the Internet ever happy with anything?
Speaker 1: Not typically, I mean, I write all kinds of things
Speaker 1: in the Internet is never happy with any of it.
Speaker 1: So I take that as a sign of the times. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so's so, I guess that that's the sign that we
Speaker 1: should go into theories. Before we start theories, let's take
Speaker 1: a quick break. The forest is dark, the air is heavy,
Speaker 1: the rain constant. All around you swarm a little flies,
Speaker 1: But when showing the bear's patch of skin, you love
Speaker 1: to be able to give up and go home. But
Speaker 1: the old woman in charge of the village warned you
Speaker 1: what would happen if you came home empty handed again?
Speaker 1: So you sit and you sit, waiting, hoping that the
Speaker 1: rain will end. Horn animal will wander by, all unaware,
Speaker 1: but at the same time dreaming of a time in
Speaker 1: the future. When you won't have to fear the old
Speaker 1: woman and the food will really just come to you. Thankfully,
Speaker 1: for us, we don't live in that dark forest or
Speaker 1: that time, and the food does come to courtesy of
Speaker 1: Blue Apron. Blue Apron can be delivered to the contin
Speaker 1: ll us and nine and a half percent of food
Speaker 1: deserts uh. Some of the meals available in January include
Speaker 1: seared pork chops with Pharaoh and cranberry chutney. Also spicy shrimping,
Speaker 1: Korean rice cakes with cabbage and fur cocky. So check
Speaker 1: out this week's men. You get your first three weeks
Speaker 1: free with free shipping if you go to blue Apron
Speaker 1: dot com slash thinking, and you'll laugh how good it
Speaker 1: feels and how tasty it is to create these incredible
Speaker 1: home cooked meals with Blue Apron. So don't wait, go
Speaker 1: there today. That's blue Apron dot com slash thinking. Blue
Speaker 1: Apron a better way to cook and never sit waiting
Speaker 1: in the forest again. And we're back. We should Let's
Speaker 1: just swim right into the theories theory number one. I
Speaker 1: hate that women theories swimming theories. Okay, come up with
Speaker 1: something better. Let's do theories. Let's okay, let's do a
Speaker 1: cannonball in the theories. Let's dive into it. Let's let
Speaker 1: the gentle undertow of theories pull us into its sweet embrace.
Speaker 1: Perfect alright, head out of the surf. Spare us a
Speaker 1: few theories. There we go. All of these are all
Speaker 1: off the tongue. Okay. So theory number one suicide, because
Speaker 1: it's always suicide, always. So this theory says that Harold
Speaker 1: Holt knew that for some reason, he was in trouble,
Speaker 1: and he decided that the solution was to take his
Speaker 1: own life, I guess, to avoid whatever disgrace that was
Speaker 1: gonna bring to him. And the suicide theories actually split
Speaker 1: into two causes, as in the things that drove him
Speaker 1: to do it? Okay. Cause number one is Marjorie Gillespie, Okay, okay.
Speaker 1: It is supposedly said that she had told Harold Hold,
Speaker 1: or she had told others, that she intended to file
Speaker 1: for divorce because she was as well as Harold Hold,
Speaker 1: she was married, and she was going to file for divorce,
Speaker 1: and she was gonna name him as a co respondent,
Speaker 1: which equates to co adulterer or cheater, as in, this
Speaker 1: is the person I've been having the affair with why.
Speaker 1: I don't know why you would put that on the paperwork,
Speaker 1: but according to the theory, that's what she was gonna do.
Speaker 1: But it sounds like it was pretty commonly known that
Speaker 1: he was already, you know, doing a deed with her.
Speaker 1: That's very well, if not with her with several other ladies. Yes,
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like he would have really rocked his world
Speaker 1: all that much. I am in complete and utter agreement
Speaker 1: with you on that. It is it doesn't make any
Speaker 1: sense that he would suddenly be thrown sideways by that um.
Speaker 1: So that then text takes us to theory number two,
Speaker 1: or part number two of this theory, which is part
Speaker 1: B of the Your Medicare Part D program Wait that
Speaker 1: I've been watched too with tv UM. The second part
Speaker 1: of the suicide theory, or the second cause is that
Speaker 1: there was problems in his political party that we're getting
Speaker 1: away from him and going to cause him disgrace. So
Speaker 1: there was political infighting going on, and there was talk
Speaker 1: of a split in the Liberal Party. There were two people,
Speaker 1: at least two people who were really feuding, and I
Speaker 1: apologize if I mispronounced the names, but there are McEwen
Speaker 1: and McMahon. I believe it's how you pronounced them. McMahon
Speaker 1: became Prime minister years later. But yeah, so that these
Speaker 1: two guys, so McMahon and and McEwen, they're having this
Speaker 1: political infighting and there's talk about the group splitting. They're bickering.
Speaker 1: I mean really they're bickering. They're going at each other's
Speaker 1: throat and read some of the correspondence and as with
Speaker 1: all politics, it just seems really petty after the fact.
Speaker 1: How dare you say I said that. I never said that,
Speaker 1: But this is just the sort of stuff is par
Speaker 1: for the course in politics. Yeah. Hole. They had been
Speaker 1: in politics for thirty years. Do you think he had
Speaker 1: never seen this? He had gone through the whole thing
Speaker 1: where the United Australia Party had folded and been then
Speaker 1: morphed into the party that he is part of now,
Speaker 1: Like this is not the first time this crap has
Speaker 1: gone on. And it's like, even if his party goes
Speaker 1: away and he's no like a prime minister, still keeps
Speaker 1: his job in Parliament and you know, no matter what is,
Speaker 1: his pension is not a danger, so no worries. So
Speaker 1: both of the suicide theories don't really make any sense.
Speaker 1: It's a little confusing to me as to how that
Speaker 1: would be. But people say that he intentionally swam out
Speaker 1: in very high surf knowing that he would not be
Speaker 1: to go past his limit, knowing he couldn't come back.
Speaker 1: It might be that you never know what's going on
Speaker 1: with the guy. I mean, maybe like the other Herald
Speaker 1: we just talked about, like three weeks ago, perhaps Loundernet, Yeah,
Speaker 1: like weeks ago. Yeah. Uh. Maybe like the other Herald,
Speaker 1: maybe his mental faculties were going although nobody said anything
Speaker 1: about that about him marbles or anything like that. But well,
Speaker 1: if there's one thing I've learned from doing this podcast
Speaker 1: for years, um, it's that we get emails. Every time
Speaker 1: suicide is a theory. We get at least one email
Speaker 1: saying yeah, but suicide isn't always logical, are not always obvious? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And you know my my of course, my gut reaction
Speaker 1: is like, okay, find so he committed suicide, But like,
Speaker 1: why I invite your mistress along? Why you know, why
Speaker 1: just be like, oh, there's a bunch of people standing
Speaker 1: right here, I'm just going to do this. But I
Speaker 1: also like, I also you know, know that there's no
Speaker 1: telling what's going through someone's head. So I don't I
Speaker 1: don't believe the suicide theory. But also it's one of
Speaker 1: those ones where I feel like I just can never
Speaker 1: discount it at this point. Okay, No, that that that
Speaker 1: I can't. I'll let that go. It's the second most
Speaker 1: likely of these theories. I think it's the third most
Speaker 1: likely myself. Well, I put it actually on. Well, no,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of bad theories in this so yeah,
Speaker 1: it does kind of float to the top. Okay, let's
Speaker 1: move to our next theory, which is that Harold Holt
Speaker 1: was actually a Chinese sleeper agent. So this is fun
Speaker 1: and it's great, and it came from a man named
Speaker 1: Robert Titcomb Actually will not initially because in the beginning
Speaker 1: he gave the information to an author named Anthony Gray
Speaker 1: who and wrote a book. But supposedly Harold Holt had
Speaker 1: always been a Chinese sympathizer and for some reason in
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven decided that it was time to leave
Speaker 1: Sunny Australia and returned to the People's Republic of China.
Speaker 1: And how did they get in there? Well, obviously they
Speaker 1: used a submarine, because that's how the Chinese always take
Speaker 1: people away. Well, I guess it actually is a good
Speaker 1: way to infiltrate nextfil trade people not in that space though, Well,
Speaker 1: you don't usually do that kind of operation in the
Speaker 1: daytime or when there's like a huge spectacle of a
Speaker 1: boat in crowdswhere you know where there's you've invited. I mean,
Speaker 1: because the thing is he explicitly called his lady friend
Speaker 1: and said, do you want to come? Right? So, so
Speaker 1: the theory says that the Chinese to Chinese divers or
Speaker 1: frog manage you'll see it called, which I always love
Speaker 1: that name. I don't know why, but I like it.
Speaker 1: I don't know where frog man came from. It is
Speaker 1: a name, it is a good like it. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: they they swim, they find whole How the hell they
Speaker 1: find him in that rough water in that area I
Speaker 1: don't know in Chevyott Beach, but they do. And I
Speaker 1: guess they used the buddy system to keep him with
Speaker 1: air as they take him back to the mini sub
Speaker 1: the Actually they actually could have brought him a set
Speaker 1: of tanks too, if they really had planned this out,
Speaker 1: that's what they would have done. I'm true that the
Speaker 1: hard party is that was as rough as the water
Speaker 1: was reportedly was how you would find a guy. Well,
Speaker 1: actually he he could have. He was a strong swim
Speaker 1: with it was a big undertow He could actually easily
Speaker 1: have gotten out of the whole churned up area next
Speaker 1: to the shore and gotten out in clearer waters and
Speaker 1: then Ronnie Wood with him. But again, you know, actually
Speaker 1: making that meet up would be kind of tricky. And
Speaker 1: there's also been some stuff that supposedly there's been investigations
Speaker 1: that and I will be honest, I've seen this as
Speaker 1: cursory statements and I've never actually dug into him, but
Speaker 1: there's things that people say, well, they've looked into it,
Speaker 1: and there's no way that a submarine could have gotten
Speaker 1: anywhere close enough based on the depth of the water
Speaker 1: in that area. But then that's why they always call
Speaker 1: it a mini sub, which I don't even know what
Speaker 1: is a mini sub A small If you say a
Speaker 1: small sub, that's what it is. I don't know what
Speaker 1: you wanted for me, Like a mini horses, just a
Speaker 1: small horse. I don't know who you That's what many means.
Speaker 1: It's like a mini Cooper is just a small Bradley Cooper.
Speaker 1: But I mean mini subs could be a one man sub.
Speaker 1: There can be a six man sub, atten man sub.
Speaker 1: You know, they can be actually decent sized, could it?
Speaker 1: Could it be the equivalent of what are those silly
Speaker 1: little underwater scooter things that you see in the James Bond.
Speaker 1: That's not a sub, Okay, I was hoping. I mean
Speaker 1: that would actually be a great way to get your
Speaker 1: diver close in and back out again. Had to use
Speaker 1: some of those things, the propulsion unit like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so something like that could be. It could be strapped
Speaker 1: down to the deck of the mini sub. Although in
Speaker 1: the late sixties, yeah, they had that stuff. Jack Cousto
Speaker 1: was using that stuff on TV. Jack maybe he was
Speaker 1: who stole him? Yeah, he wasn't underwater treasure. Oh you're
Speaker 1: not that that was not a good French access our.
Speaker 1: Next theory is that Harold Holt simply did the whole
Speaker 1: thing as a giant put on, and he actually did
Speaker 1: it so that he could run away with a mistress.
Speaker 1: Another mistress. Well mistress, so we've we've can we hold
Speaker 1: off on that first second? I'm not quite actually done
Speaker 1: with the Chinese. Please please, I don't want to talry
Speaker 1: about a mistress at all, So please tell me about this,
Speaker 1: you know, the whole sub thing. I mean, first of all,
Speaker 1: it's a bad day for it because there's gonna be
Speaker 1: a lot of boat traffic because for the fact, well now,
Speaker 1: I mean you got this, the sailboat that's coming in.
Speaker 1: Crowds of tens of thousands of people are lying and
Speaker 1: short of watch it. And you know that everybody with
Speaker 1: a boat, a private boat, is the o out there
Speaker 1: on the water jetting around and stuff. It's it's it's
Speaker 1: it's a bad time to be doing your ex filtration operation.
Speaker 1: This is also right about sixty seven was not around
Speaker 1: the time with a great leap forward, not a great
Speaker 1: time to be in China. Great leap Forward. Yeah, you're
Speaker 1: gonna have to you have to refresh my memory and that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I decided to like, you know, like sort
Speaker 1: of accelerates the whole Yes, the whole process of industrialization
Speaker 1: and modernization. Uh was when the Great Leap forward happened?
Speaker 1: I get my history mixed up, But I don't know.
Speaker 1: I just don't think China was all that attractive with
Speaker 1: a place a place to defect. To know. Let me see,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna leave a sunny paradise for a very cold
Speaker 1: place wherecause we're an economy and shrinking and just like
Speaker 1: it's just going awful. Yeah. Yeah. The thing about it
Speaker 1: is is it I don't If he actually truly was
Speaker 1: a Chinese agent and he defected, then obviously it didn't
Speaker 1: work out so well for him because the Chinese had
Speaker 1: two choices. One is they get a lot of publicity
Speaker 1: out of it. They paraded before the cameras and say, hey,
Speaker 1: look came with us. I know it's a great for them.
Speaker 1: Or the alternative to that is you don't tell a soul,
Speaker 1: you just get rid of him quietly. No, don't get
Speaker 1: rid of him. The guy knows plenty of secrets. Pump him.
Speaker 1: You and Tero get the crap out of them for years,
Speaker 1: ring every everything you can out, and then you can
Speaker 1: quietly suppose. So obviously, you know, if it was the Chinese,
Speaker 1: which I doubt, then you know I didn't work out
Speaker 1: so well for you know what My favorite thing about
Speaker 1: the whole it was the China side theory is is
Speaker 1: it his son or his wife who made the best
Speaker 1: statement ever be a Chinese agent? He didn't even like
Speaker 1: Chinese food. That was obviously just part of this cover.
Speaker 1: Obviously it was part of it about the mistress. Now
Speaker 1: loves talking about the mistress. That's a good that's a
Speaker 1: good point about the food and everything. But no, we
Speaker 1: can't devon Yeah, I mean exfil trading in that way.
Speaker 1: When he actually traveled abroad, it would have been very
Speaker 1: easy to actually have him jump ship. I mean actually
Speaker 1: even from Australia. There was just so many easier better
Speaker 1: ways to do it than swim it out into the ocean.
Speaker 1: They're trying to rende be with some frog man and stuff.
Speaker 1: I mean, so yeah, point taking sure, Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: you got it. Yeah, So that's it for the Chinese
Speaker 1: for me, Okay, I think yeah, I think we're done
Speaker 1: without al right, so we're gonna go back to the mistress.
Speaker 1: So we have established the fact that Harold Holt was
Speaker 1: a womanizer, and we have established the fact that he
Speaker 1: was known to have had affairs. So what's going to
Speaker 1: prompt a man to walk away from his entire career
Speaker 1: and everything that he's known and built up in his life.
Speaker 1: A pretty girl, a pretty new girl, which makes absolutely
Speaker 1: no se ends he had really been philandering as much
Speaker 1: as he wanted apparently, so it doesn't make any sense
Speaker 1: to leave all of the power and fame and money
Speaker 1: that he has has attained just for a new girl.
Speaker 1: It doesn't it doesn't add up. Okay, So there's and
Speaker 1: some people say, well, he was he would have been
Speaker 1: ashamed if he had divorced Zara, But I don't know
Speaker 1: that that's so much the case. And this is also
Speaker 1: in that weird transitional time frame in world and just
Speaker 1: reporting history where news agencies would say, well, you're a
Speaker 1: public figure and we'll talk about the things that you
Speaker 1: do based on your job, but but your personal life
Speaker 1: is still kind of your personal life, and why would
Speaker 1: we report on the fact that you are over here
Speaker 1: sleeping with the neighbor, because that's not our business. That's
Speaker 1: your personal life. And that's that's in that transitional period
Speaker 1: where news media said, oh no, we were going to
Speaker 1: cover at all. Well, I also guess I just don't
Speaker 1: really understand the logic of like, you have a marriage
Speaker 1: for your public face and a wife who says great,
Speaker 1: go sleep with whoever you want, and you are in
Speaker 1: the political realm that you want to be. You know,
Speaker 1: you're leading your group, you're affecting change, and then you're
Speaker 1: just like, oh, you know what, suddenly this arrangement isn't
Speaker 1: working for me, so I'm gonna go swim out into
Speaker 1: the ocean and take my own death like that. I
Speaker 1: don't understand that logic. Although one of the things about
Speaker 1: about the whole thing that makes no sense to me
Speaker 1: is that there was indeed a riptide that day. But
Speaker 1: riptides are actually pretty easy to deal with, and Harold Holt,
Speaker 1: being an experienced swimmer, wouldn't know how to do that.
Speaker 1: So I think I think the point that when we
Speaker 1: hear the test the words of Marjorie Gillespie, when she
Speaker 1: says that the sea appeared to boil and there was
Speaker 1: a lot of driftwood, I think that what what's what
Speaker 1: she's getting at is that the search was crashing on him.
Speaker 1: So it's not so much I think that there was
Speaker 1: the ripped tide. I think what they're getting at is
Speaker 1: he was hit and shoved underwater, and while underwater, then
Speaker 1: that riptide is what gets him, not you know, when
Speaker 1: he's swimming up top. Yeah, yeah, it's entirely possible. I mean, driftwood.
Speaker 1: You never know what sizes they're talking about, like that sticks.
Speaker 1: I mean I've seen driftwood, the trees, the co big trees,
Speaker 1: the entire freaking fifty year old tree flow around. I
Speaker 1: have to assume when they were talking about driftwood in
Speaker 1: the Tide, I have to assume they were talking about
Speaker 1: smaller chunks, because I mean, and I was a little
Speaker 1: fool hardy, but swimming and surf where there's massive tree
Speaker 1: trunks floating around is, in my mind, the most idiotic
Speaker 1: thing you could ever do. I have seen some of
Speaker 1: the images from the time and the beach, and I
Speaker 1: got the impression that there was driftwood that was floating
Speaker 1: around that was the diameter of your thigh. So that's
Speaker 1: that's a I don't know, I couldn't really tell the length,
Speaker 1: but I could get an idea. But that's a that's
Speaker 1: a hunk of wood. And you know, when you're swimming
Speaker 1: in the Caesar up and down, you don't see that coming.
Speaker 1: You have no idea that you're about to swim into
Speaker 1: a floating forest of wood that's going to clobber you.
Speaker 1: So but but I don't know, Joe, that's a great point.
Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like maybe I don't even know
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say here, But there's a lot
Speaker 1: of ways that that could have gone. There were a
Speaker 1: lot of things after you get him. Let's let's go
Speaker 1: to our next theory though, because this one makes a
Speaker 1: lot of no sense and I have absolutely not a
Speaker 1: clear idea of how this came about. But this theory
Speaker 1: says that either Harold Holt was part of or despised
Speaker 1: by the mr Asia drug syndicate and that is why
Speaker 1: he disappears. So it is a real thing, the mr
Speaker 1: Asia drug syndicate. This is actually really this was actually
Speaker 1: a really interesting thing to read about. It kind of
Speaker 1: is so so because I was just gonna say, like,
Speaker 1: what kind of dummy names The thing that Joe or
Speaker 1: the mr Asia drug syndicate was started by a guy
Speaker 1: named Marty Johnstone and two other buddies of his whose
Speaker 1: names escaped me at the moment. And these guys were
Speaker 1: low level thugs and criminals, but they happened to meet
Speaker 1: a marijuana a guy who had a bunch of marijuana
Speaker 1: who went by the name of Chinese Jack, and he
Speaker 1: was importing pot. Once they got to dealing for him
Speaker 1: and getting all he was apparently importing literal, no joke,
Speaker 1: boatloads of weed, they their business took off and then
Speaker 1: they started selling um heroin and coke and the whole
Speaker 1: thing just went gang buster and up to the point
Speaker 1: that like the cops actually took this whole drug syndicate serious.
Speaker 1: Well there's there's when you've got a couple of punks
Speaker 1: who were trying to deal dime bags versus guys who
Speaker 1: are dealing pounds and kilos and kilos and pounds of
Speaker 1: this stuff like mad so there and apparently they were
Speaker 1: killing a bunch of people. There's a gentleman by the
Speaker 1: name of Terry Clark who was involved with them, and
Speaker 1: I have I feel like maybe Terry Clark inserted himself
Speaker 1: into the organization and sort of exerted control over it,
Speaker 1: and they are he and everybody else that was in
Speaker 1: the top of the organization had to flee Australia because
Speaker 1: Terry Clark pulled an Eddie Nash, remember Eddie Nash from
Speaker 1: the Wonderland Murders, where he was like going nuts and
Speaker 1: just killing people in crazy coke benders. Well, he killed
Speaker 1: a bunch of people apparently in some plan or some
Speaker 1: coked out scheme to maintain control of the operation. So
Speaker 1: while I was killing people, who just happened to kill
Speaker 1: the Prime Minister. Well, you would think that. Except here's
Speaker 1: the thing that I don't understand is to how Harold
Speaker 1: hold shows up in the mr Asia drug syndicate. The
Speaker 1: syndicate didn't start till seventy three, which is about six
Speaker 1: years after Harold Holt disappeared. So how in the heck
Speaker 1: he is linked to it? I don't know. Maybe um,
Speaker 1: he was Chinese. Jack met him, it was his dealer,
Speaker 1: and then off him. I don't know, Like the connection
Speaker 1: is so weird and it disappears that I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think you're confusing. The people are confusing the mr
Speaker 1: Asia drug Syndicate with the mr Asia sug syndicate. So
Speaker 1: that's probably what it is. Yeah, maybe okay, should we
Speaker 1: move on went on the funny drug fun drug syndicate story.
Speaker 1: Let's go to another fun theory, which is that it
Speaker 1: was a UFO abduction. Yeah, I you know, I like
Speaker 1: this one, actually, do you? Yeah? It's written by our
Speaker 1: favorite reputable author. It really is so okay, So Devon's
Speaker 1: trying to give away the story here. The UFO connection
Speaker 1: showed up in a book by John Keel. You may
Speaker 1: remember John Keel. He wrote a book called Operation Trojan Horse,
Speaker 1: which is where Harold Holds disappearance ted Aliens comes from.
Speaker 1: But he also wrote a very famous book called The
Speaker 1: Mothman Prophecy. Yeah. I found a copy of Operation Trojan
Speaker 1: Horse on the Internet and I did some scanning through it,
Speaker 1: and well it says that Harold hold His disappearance was
Speaker 1: predicted by the Elements. I like that you didn't put
Speaker 1: that in quotation marks though, because well, yeah, so, because
Speaker 1: because whatever. I don't know what that means. The elemental
Speaker 1: I don't know what that means. It's it's one damn
Speaker 1: sentence in that silly book, and I don't know what
Speaker 1: it is. Do you guys have any could somebody explain
Speaker 1: it to me? Um? I would say the elementals are
Speaker 1: probably kind of like either spirits or you know, like
Speaker 1: like like sort of like the UK. Yeah. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: it's also am prophecy, so it's not just UFOs are
Speaker 1: probably like spirits didn't have at the world. They're like
Speaker 1: they've been here since the very beginning. Or maybe he's
Speaker 1: just talking about the periodic table of the elements. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure. The elementals could also be the name of
Speaker 1: of Aliens. Based on what Joe said. I'm glad I
Speaker 1: didn't even bother to capitalize the word elemental. Okay, okay, fine,
Speaker 1: so probably not a UFO, but fine whatever. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean nobody saw any UFOs. I mean there could have
Speaker 1: been underwater UFOs. I suppose true, totally could have. They
Speaker 1: just they just got a recording of an underwater uf
Speaker 1: one record. There's only one recorded underwater siding that is
Speaker 1: in the Abyss the movie, so they just have they
Speaker 1: have a sound recording. Now. It's called the Bio. I
Speaker 1: remember Wang, the Bio Twangs. That's the one that just
Speaker 1: came out like today. They're they're accounting for all those
Speaker 1: alien noises coming out of the something Marianna trend. Yes,
Speaker 1: I did see that come through that. I haven't had
Speaker 1: a chance to read up on that. Okay, you can
Speaker 1: just listen to it. It sounds literally like, uh exactly.
Speaker 1: What if somebody were like, hey, I need a sound
Speaker 1: effect for a monster in my like action film, I'd
Speaker 1: be like, I have the one for you. This is
Speaker 1: this something that came from not Pacific Rim, but that
Speaker 1: crappy ar version Atlantic Rim. No, there was actually an
Speaker 1: Atlantic Rim. Yeah, yeah, there was a sequel there was. Okay,
Speaker 1: so probably not wufos. Yeah, okays, let's go Holy crap,
Speaker 1: we got a bunch more theories here. Next theory is that,
Speaker 1: in matter of fact, Harold Holt was actually killed prior
Speaker 1: to the seventeenth and the whole thing is cover up. Okay, Actually,
Speaker 1: I guess I'm gonna bump my suicide theory down to
Speaker 1: three because I like this and you already said it
Speaker 1: wasn't three. Yeah. Okay. So there's a gentleman. His name
Speaker 1: is Gary Simons. He has made a claim and this
Speaker 1: is all on his website, Harold dash Holt dot com
Speaker 1: that well he means business with and this claim is
Speaker 1: that Harold Holt was killed and the reason was that
Speaker 1: he would not support the construction of Pine Gap. Pine Gap,
Speaker 1: for anybody who doesn't know, is a joint Australian and
Speaker 1: US satellite ground station officially, which is the official, actual truth.
Speaker 1: So stop saying it, because that's really what it is.
Speaker 1: And we're totally on board with that, not an alien installations.
Speaker 1: To stop asking one. I know, Simon's so no, but
Speaker 1: Simon says that it's because Holt wouldn't support the construction
Speaker 1: of Pine Gap, and that Pine Gap is actually some
Speaker 1: sort of secret operation base and he was involved in
Speaker 1: the removal of Harold Holt's body from Harold holtz residence
Speaker 1: the night before. So on the night of the sixteenth,
Speaker 1: he was involved by taking Holt's body out of his
Speaker 1: house to a boat and then taking that boat out
Speaker 1: to meet another boat on the water, which then transported
Speaker 1: the body I guess to to chevy At Beach where
Speaker 1: it was going to be dumped and then um, but
Speaker 1: it wasn't found. So presumably it was eating my sharks
Speaker 1: or something. I really, I really, I'll be honest with you, Joe.
Speaker 1: I don't know Simon's He sounds credible at times, like
Speaker 1: he makes statements that are rather credible and logical and
Speaker 1: seem to make sense, and then there are times that
Speaker 1: just it doesn't make any sense. Like he says he
Speaker 1: was involved in he was he was a member of
Speaker 1: the Australian Navy, and you know he listened stuff. But
Speaker 1: then how he went from swab in the deck to
Speaker 1: doing wet work, I can't figure out. It's actually so, Devin,
Speaker 1: you're gonna get to narrate today. So Simmons has something
Speaker 1: on his website that describes it, and I would like
Speaker 1: you to read that for our listeners with an Australian accent,
Speaker 1: please we're As part of my duties, I engaged in
Speaker 1: several clandestine operations, one of which was the removal of
Speaker 1: the body of then Australian Prime Minister Harold Holt from
Speaker 1: his home out to a waiting fishing boat in the
Speaker 1: night before it was reported he disappeared while swimming. So
Speaker 1: I okay, Well, so that's what he says on his website.
Speaker 1: He also invokes the second law, or the second law
Speaker 1: of the universe, as he calls it. He constantly invokes
Speaker 1: in second the second something of the universe, second rule,
Speaker 1: second law. But I tried, I really I read the
Speaker 1: guy's stuff and tried to give him a fair shake,
Speaker 1: and in the end I had to discounting because he
Speaker 1: sounds a little crazy. Yeah. I've seen his website, and
Speaker 1: you know, I read that that letter that he sent.
Speaker 1: He has a copy of his Oh, he puts all
Speaker 1: his emails on his website. Yeah, this is a letter
Speaker 1: sent to the Inquest that was in two thousand three
Speaker 1: or five. Yes, he sent them. And actually, although a
Speaker 1: few of the claims in the letter we're kind of questionable,
Speaker 1: it actually appeared to be well written. And quite coherent.
Speaker 1: And that's that's not that that's what I'm saying. I
Speaker 1: believe the guy at all, but some some stuff that
Speaker 1: he writes appeared is to be coherent. Yeah, and it's
Speaker 1: not written by a similiterate or total whack job or anything. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But at the same time he believes him outlandis saying, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's why I I was, I really for a long
Speaker 1: time try to give him just you know, I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna read it, I'm gonna hear him out.
Speaker 1: But there's a point where I had to just stop
Speaker 1: because it's I feel like it's a little cuckoo for
Speaker 1: cocoa puffs. And so I'm not really sure what to
Speaker 1: make of his statement. He makes a lot of statements
Speaker 1: about a lot of other things aside from Harold Hold.
Speaker 1: But I do like the idea of I'm always kind
Speaker 1: of into those ideas, like when we talk about plane
Speaker 1: crashes with the zombie plane idea where it's you know,
Speaker 1: everybody on there was actually just a corpse and it
Speaker 1: was like it wasn't or it was a plant. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like everybody on the plane, right, So same with this,
Speaker 1: I'm always kind of drawn to these theories, whether they
Speaker 1: have good credit or not. I'm always drawn to the
Speaker 1: idea that that person wasn't actually at that place where
Speaker 1: they were reported to be. Why his lover would go
Speaker 1: along with it, I'm not totally sure, but well, why
Speaker 1: would she and three other young people and the guard
Speaker 1: that was at the guard station. Like suddenly our cast
Speaker 1: of characters who need to be involved and agree to
Speaker 1: go along with it starts to grow. I guess she's
Speaker 1: the big question mark for me because, like the rest
Speaker 1: of them are, they're not close associations with him. So
Speaker 1: money helps a lot. But if you have a personal
Speaker 1: relationship with someone, I think usually you're a little less
Speaker 1: likely to do that. But it would explain maybe why
Speaker 1: it was her not the wife for instance. Maybe you know,
Speaker 1: maybe she was easier to bribe. I don't know, but
Speaker 1: there were a lot of people involved. Also, if he
Speaker 1: had to remove the body transported down to a boot. No,
Speaker 1: I disagree with the method that he's proposing. I'm just
Speaker 1: saying I like the idea. I'm sorry. I think the
Speaker 1: idea is interesting that he that Harold hold could have
Speaker 1: died before and that it wasn't. No, it's an intriguing idea.
Speaker 1: I agree, but but like I still was saying that
Speaker 1: the circle is fairly wide, but it gets wider. We're
Speaker 1: not just we're not just talking about the several people
Speaker 1: that went down to the beach with him, but the
Speaker 1: guys who had to go retrieved the body. And let's
Speaker 1: forget that he retrieved the body. That means somebody else
Speaker 1: murdered him, right, So then they went down to retrieved
Speaker 1: the body cofectly. He talked to his house has made
Speaker 1: that morning she was at his residence. Supposedly, she was like, again,
Speaker 1: if I have to, they have to take the boat,
Speaker 1: or have to take the body down to a marina
Speaker 1: presumably or a beach, or somewhere where they could potentially
Speaker 1: be spotted by other people loading into a boat which
Speaker 1: goes out to another boat, which by the way, has
Speaker 1: more people on it. But they I mean, that doesn't
Speaker 1: have that that's not necessary. They could have pulled a
Speaker 1: car up to his house and throwing him in the boot.
Speaker 1: I mean, the boat thing, I don't think it's necessary
Speaker 1: at all. That's what he's said disposing that. But that's
Speaker 1: what I'm saying is that I don't really give a
Speaker 1: crap about what this guy's claiming. I'm just saying that
Speaker 1: the concept of Harold Holt dying before. I agree that
Speaker 1: this whole transportation situation is dumb. That didn't happen. It is,
Speaker 1: but I'm just saying that. I but since they got
Speaker 1: this sense of guys putting forth the theory that he
Speaker 1: was murdered ahead of time and his body was transported
Speaker 1: on the seventeen out to sea, he was murdered in
Speaker 1: the sixteenth, but his body was transferred during the night
Speaker 1: sixties seventeen, and then and then it becomes like you says,
Speaker 1: he is the only one who's making the claim that
Speaker 1: Hole was murdered prior to the seventeen, which is one
Speaker 1: of the whole thing out of the water. Right. Well,
Speaker 1: except for that, I wouldn't believe. I mean, why would
Speaker 1: he come for. I mean, the people who would be
Speaker 1: have been paid to keep their mouth shut are presumably
Speaker 1: doing their job and keeping their dang mouth shut. Remarkably,
Speaker 1: nobody's killed him yet what's his name again? So I mean,
Speaker 1: I think, I think it's an interesting theory, but I
Speaker 1: agree that it wasn't Gary nothing. It doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1: So I'm willing to move on to the knick theory. Okay,
Speaker 1: So our next theory is that, in fact, Harold Holt
Speaker 1: was killed by the CIA, because the CIA is involved
Speaker 1: in everything. We were talking at one point about the
Speaker 1: fact that Harold Holt had come out in support of
Speaker 1: Lyndon B. Johnson and he was supporting the war effort
Speaker 1: in Vietnam against the North Vietnamese. This theory says that
Speaker 1: through the course of sixty six and then into sixty seven,
Speaker 1: Holt B came began to have second thoughts, and he
Speaker 1: began to think that maybe this was a bad idea,
Speaker 1: and he should possibly reduce his troop forces that we're
Speaker 1: serving over there in an effort to stop that from happening,
Speaker 1: because that would be egg on the face of the
Speaker 1: US president. These uh CIA went in and somehow assassinated him,
Speaker 1: whether they found him in the water, which we've already
Speaker 1: talked about the multitude of problems with that, or if
Speaker 1: they began some program of poisoning him so that he
Speaker 1: was in a weekend state when he went in the water,
Speaker 1: so that he would then naturally succumb. Whether it be
Speaker 1: that trip or another time when he was in the water,
Speaker 1: I don't know. But that's that's what this theory says.
Speaker 1: I I really would be surprised to see the c
Speaker 1: I a step up to that level. Well, I I
Speaker 1: think so. But you know, again, you gotta remember this
Speaker 1: as Australia. It's as parliamentary politics. Holt wasn't just running
Speaker 1: off like a loose cannon doing whatever he felt like.
Speaker 1: It wasn't as he was a supreme commander who could
Speaker 1: say whatever he wanted to do. Now it was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean he essentially, he essentially was a representative of
Speaker 1: his party. And so if he truly wanted to be
Speaker 1: out of Vietnam, and it was the whole policy was
Speaker 1: popular with every single other person in his party. Remember,
Speaker 1: your prime minister, the most you want, you know, you
Speaker 1: don't necessarily want what's good for Australia. What you want
Speaker 1: to do is you want to hold your coalition together
Speaker 1: because that means you get to keep being Prime Minister.
Speaker 1: And so you don't want your coalition coming apart. So
Speaker 1: you're not going to defy your party. If your party
Speaker 1: is a major rift in it over you might try
Speaker 1: to heal it or whatever over the Vietnam thing. But again,
Speaker 1: if he was turning against it. It's because public opinion
Speaker 1: was turning against it, many members of his own party
Speaker 1: were turning against it, removing himselves nothing in terms of
Speaker 1: you know, he's not pushes the button to stop it all.
Speaker 1: At the point, there's a lot of a lot of
Speaker 1: different people involved. So your point is this is also
Speaker 1: a dumb theory. Yeah, well yeah, and also well also
Speaker 1: high summary ability. Well, and this is one of the
Speaker 1: things too, I mean, because we've heard the same thing
Speaker 1: with the Jfkigs assassination, which is a CIA, and you
Speaker 1: wanted him dead because he was wanted to pull he
Speaker 1: was going to gank us out of the world. Nobody
Speaker 1: has ever explained to me exactly why the c I
Speaker 1: was so heavily invested in the war in Vietnam. I mean,
Speaker 1: I never understood that. Nobody's ever explained that one to me.
Speaker 1: So we're gonna get a lot of emails on that.
Speaker 1: We're going to set up a very special email address
Speaker 1: for Joe only, and we'll give that to you later
Speaker 1: on That email address is that theory is dumb at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. Let's move on to our next theory.
Speaker 1: Our next theory is quite the opposite of this theory,
Speaker 1: and it is that Harold Holt was killed in a
Speaker 1: botched abduction attempt, and that abduction attempt was carried out
Speaker 1: by war not supports. What detractors is that the word
Speaker 1: I want to use people who are in opposition. So
Speaker 1: these people were opposed to the war. And what they
Speaker 1: in this They were probably hippies who spelled like put
Speaker 1: you really. But there Their whole plan of attack here
Speaker 1: was they were going to abduct Harold hold and hold
Speaker 1: him hostage up until such point that he would say,
Speaker 1: we quit, We're getting out of Vietnam, at which point
Speaker 1: they would let him go with a joint and a daisy. Okay,
Speaker 1: but that I made up most of that. But the
Speaker 1: theory is that he was It was an abduction of
Speaker 1: tent that went totally wrong, and the whole basis of
Speaker 1: the abduction was so that they could stop the war efforts. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And what happened was he was he was captive, and
Speaker 1: they were out of the room, and he spotted a
Speaker 1: tray full of brownies and he was hungry, so he
Speaker 1: scoffed him down and he had a fatal overdose of brownies. Yeah, alright,
Speaker 1: So I think we had a little fun there, Uh, well, yeah, no, no,
Speaker 1: this is a serious no. You know what, Actually I
Speaker 1: like the Chinese theory better than this because it simply
Speaker 1: does not involve hippies. There's that, and also the you know,
Speaker 1: of course their plan was completely idiotic. It never would
Speaker 1: have actually worked. Well, it's silly to pluck him out
Speaker 1: of the water like that, Yeah, I mean, because well,
Speaker 1: let's just not keep going down this road. Why don't
Speaker 1: we move to the last theory on our docket here.
Speaker 1: Our final theory is that the entire thing was a
Speaker 1: case of accidental drownding. For this, I believe that the
Speaker 1: best way to sum it up is that it is
Speaker 1: as simple as a man going out into the water
Speaker 1: when he shouldn't have and overestimating his abilities in that
Speaker 1: water and succumbing for to those elements for that mistake. Sure,
Speaker 1: I mean, and as you said, you know, you could
Speaker 1: have gotten clocked on the head by a log. Great whites,
Speaker 1: you know, there's lots of in Australia. Okay, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: I'm gonna stop you on the great whites bit because
Speaker 1: that I've got I got a couple of things I
Speaker 1: want to share, and great Whites playing that. Okay, but anyway,
Speaker 1: But there are things that can get you out there.
Speaker 1: You swim into it like a school of jellyfish. Kelly's
Speaker 1: got a bad news. You go down. It is entirely possible.
Speaker 1: It's really rough out to catch a wave. And I've
Speaker 1: swim in the ocean before, and you can get your
Speaker 1: wave in the face and suddenly, and if you get
Speaker 1: it at just the right time, or I guess I
Speaker 1: had to say wrong time, you can inhale a little
Speaker 1: water and that's bad news. Uh. And also, you know,
Speaker 1: I knew a guy when he died about maybe a
Speaker 1: year and a half ago, and he was swimming, a
Speaker 1: strong swimmer, very athletic, in great shape, about forty years old.
Speaker 1: It turns out his heart was a ticking time bomb
Speaker 1: and he had a heart attack while swimming. And nobody
Speaker 1: ever would have expected this to happen, but it happened.
Speaker 1: I mean, he had a heart attack and then he's round,
Speaker 1: you know, and so it's possible that, you know, it
Speaker 1: could have been. He is a great prequel to several
Speaker 1: bits of information that I have about Harold Holt and
Speaker 1: the conditions that day. So let's talk about the conditions.
Speaker 1: Turns out, according to the locals. When the tides in
Speaker 1: that area turned, it wasn't uncommon to get a undertow
Speaker 1: in the neighborhood of about ten knots. Not is equivalent
Speaker 1: roughly to about one mile an hour. One not one
Speaker 1: mile an hour roughly. Nobody give me. I knew Joe
Speaker 1: would do this too. So ten knots comes out to
Speaker 1: eleven point five miles per hour or eighteen point five
Speaker 1: kilometers per at per hour, which you know, it doesn't
Speaker 1: sound that fast to people who aren't thinking about it,
Speaker 1: but the normal person walks at about three miles per hour,
Speaker 1: so you triple that. That's a good pace. I wanted
Speaker 1: to try and come up with something about you know, oh, well,
Speaker 1: if you think about how fast an Olympic runner goes,
Speaker 1: except Hussein Bolt goes at twenty miles per hour, so
Speaker 1: he kind of blew that water on me. I mean, okay,
Speaker 1: but you can't use him as like a I was
Speaker 1: hoping to accepting the second How about the seventeenth fastest? Yeah,
Speaker 1: but to give you an idea of how bad then was,
Speaker 1: I've seen the helicopter footage flying over and it wasn't
Speaker 1: It was really bad, and there was lots of waves
Speaker 1: crashing around and those divers that we talked about in
Speaker 1: the beginning of When they went in for to look
Speaker 1: for the body, they had to wait until the twenty
Speaker 1: three December, six days after he had disappeared, before it
Speaker 1: was calm enough for them to comb the bottom, because
Speaker 1: a lot of people thought, well, Harold Holds body got
Speaker 1: swept into the rocks on the bottom and it's probably
Speaker 1: wedged down there. It took that long before they could
Speaker 1: even get down there, and then of course they didn't
Speaker 1: find anything, um because he'd been abducted. Because he'd been abducted.
Speaker 1: Yet we we talked about the fact that he had
Speaker 1: the hurt shoulder um and oh Dr Edwards, that's the
Speaker 1: guy who he played tennis with, who had supported the
Speaker 1: fact that yeah, it was still bothering him. And then
Speaker 1: there's the fact that m he apparently was having some
Speaker 1: other health issues because as he had collapsed earlier that
Speaker 1: year in parliament. Though that was everybody claimed that that
Speaker 1: was from a vitamin deficiency. Though now people say, as
Speaker 1: you alluded to Joe with the guy that you knew about,
Speaker 1: that it was a heart problem and that that may
Speaker 1: have been why he felt or collapsed Holt had also
Speaker 1: been swimming as Chevot Beach earlier that year and had
Speaker 1: to be rescued because he had problems swimming in the surf.
Speaker 1: So there's a whole bunch of things, and it it's
Speaker 1: sad to say, but for me, it adds up to
Speaker 1: a guy who has past his prime and doesn't want
Speaker 1: to admit that he isn't as good as he was.
Speaker 1: And damn it, I can make it through that. And
Speaker 1: I know this water, and he overestimated what he was
Speaker 1: capable have been like showing off, it could have been that.
Speaker 1: But I also it actually could have been that, like
Speaker 1: say an accident or a heart attack. It could have
Speaker 1: been that. Say if he hadn't gotten clocked by a
Speaker 1: log or attack lash arc or had a heart attack,
Speaker 1: it could have been that. If none of those things
Speaker 1: had happened, he could have gone out, swam around, come
Speaker 1: right back. He was an experienced guy. He knew how
Speaker 1: to deal with riptides. There there are ways to deal
Speaker 1: with very simple. Yeah, oh yeah, it's easy. And so
Speaker 1: I think he could easily have survived the conditions of
Speaker 1: the day. I think probably something else happened well, But
Speaker 1: I also wonder if maybe he you know, if it's
Speaker 1: one of those situations where he's not feeling all that
Speaker 1: great once he gets out there, but he decides not
Speaker 1: to stop because he can do better, because he had
Speaker 1: done some rather foolish things in the water. I think
Speaker 1: it was it was only like three years earlier that
Speaker 1: somebody had introduced him to spear fishing, and he was
Speaker 1: known for spear fishing and getting a fish with that,
Speaker 1: you know, pulling it off of the spear, a still
Speaker 1: bleeding fish, unzipping his wet suit, shoving that fish into
Speaker 1: his wet suit, and then still zipping it up in
Speaker 1: waters which have great white swimming around. And this isn't
Speaker 1: just like you know, here in the Pacific Northwest there's
Speaker 1: a chance there might be a shark. Now there's totally
Speaker 1: sharks around and it's a known thing. So he does
Speaker 1: he exercises maybe not the best decision making while in
Speaker 1: the water. Yeah, he's uh, kind of like the guy
Speaker 1: who camped out with the bears up in Alaska. Well
Speaker 1: that you know that that guy is a whole another
Speaker 1: level of stupid. Oh yeah, definitely a whole another level,
Speaker 1: but kind of similar in a sense. Though he got
Speaker 1: he thought that he had a special relationship with the sea,
Speaker 1: and he had like that guy thought he had a
Speaker 1: special relationship with the bears. It turns out in the end, well,
Speaker 1: now it's not true. He was a little bit deluted
Speaker 1: about that. Nature is still going to bite your face off. Yeah. Probably. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's all I have for theories. Do you guys have
Speaker 1: any other pet theories that we haven't talked about or
Speaker 1: any thank me, thank I think political competitors. So what
Speaker 1: you're saying is is mcmuhn swam out and down. Harold
Speaker 1: didn't swam away and nobody saw it. He anticipated whole
Speaker 1: will be swimming there that day and the time he
Speaker 1: released his sharks into that bay, his cyber sharks, yea,
Speaker 1: his remote controls cyber shark drones. Or he could have
Speaker 1: been just hiding out in the surf with the scuba
Speaker 1: tank on under Yeah, no, I don't. I think it's
Speaker 1: likely that he just kind of overestimated his ability and
Speaker 1: went out and was lost for the ages. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: my top theory. I would say kind of like that theory. Actually,
Speaker 1: I really liked the idea that that he was part
Speaker 1: of a drug ring that didn't exist, because that just
Speaker 1: makes it mist more amazing. It was an alien drug
Speaker 1: ring that was set in the future, but they sent
Speaker 1: an agent back in time, Harold hold from breaking it up. Wait,
Speaker 1: that's terminator. Yeah sort of, I was to say. And
Speaker 1: that agent was named Harold Holt. Yeah, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of assertain to hear like that. There was he was
Speaker 1: murdered because he was opposed to the Pine Gap facility,
Speaker 1: when in fact that was that was already going on,
Speaker 1: that was already going on before he was there. And uh,
Speaker 1: if he was willing to participate in Vietnam, that would
Speaker 1: mean he and his party were kind of cold war hawks,
Speaker 1: and the Pine Gap thing, well, that's that's cold war
Speaker 1: hawk activity. And so I can't imagine why he would
Speaker 1: have been opposed to that or his party. So just
Speaker 1: for folks who don't know, what do you mean by
Speaker 1: cold war hawk, cold war hawk as and as and
Speaker 1: if you were a cold war Hawk and you were
Speaker 1: in the West, and that meant you were opposed to
Speaker 1: the Soviets, the Chinese, the whole communism thing. And as
Speaker 1: you know, we had this thing since the end of
Speaker 1: World War Two up until basically it was star of course,
Speaker 1: but basically until the collapse of the Soviet Union. It
Speaker 1: was what we called the Cold War get down. The
Speaker 1: Hawks were the ones who were watching more tight you know,
Speaker 1: hawks were as as in more a little more warlike,
Speaker 1: more anti Soviet, more anti communists, more aggressive. Well, I
Speaker 1: was trying to figure out if it was hawk as
Speaker 1: in aggressive or hawk as in watching. I was thinking
Speaker 1: I was taking it as more of a satellite, because
Speaker 1: Pine Gap is a satellite, say station, Okay, I understand
Speaker 1: where you're coming from. Yeah, well, ladies, and gent's I
Speaker 1: think that's all we've got for this one. If you
Speaker 1: want to read some of the research that we have done.
Speaker 1: I will definitely make the uh the National Archive data
Speaker 1: available because thank you again to those folks that will
Speaker 1: be on our website. That website is thinking Sideways podcast
Speaker 1: dot com on that website, like I said, we're gonna
Speaker 1: have those links, will have you can listen to any
Speaker 1: episode there downloader stream. There will be merch available on
Speaker 1: the website on the right hand side for both Zazzle
Speaker 1: and Red Bubbles. So shirts and coffee mugs and sticks
Speaker 1: and all kinds of fun stuff were based on what
Speaker 1: Devon is currently wearing. Obviously, we need to make a
Speaker 1: tuk wait not a two kis. That's just a regular
Speaker 1: stocking cape. It's a beanie. We need to make a
Speaker 1: beanie insulting my hat. No, you need a Thinking Sideways
Speaker 1: hat obviously enough, because you're wearing the boring plane black one.
Speaker 1: That's true, although I do have to admit I don't
Speaker 1: own anything that's Thinking Sideways branded. So damn. We just
Speaker 1: finished our Christmas exchange. Okay, alright, well, well what else
Speaker 1: can we give you? Well, we are available on iTunes
Speaker 1: and I know a lot of people get their podcast
Speaker 1: through iTunes, and if you do, please do take the
Speaker 1: time to leave a comment and a rating. We are
Speaker 1: also available on a lot of the streaming sources, so
Speaker 1: I know it's Google Play and Stitcher and a whole
Speaker 1: other most of them out there. We are also going
Speaker 1: to be on the social media, so we have a
Speaker 1: Facebook age and the Facebook group, which were very busy
Speaker 1: and lots of good stuff there. We are on Twitter
Speaker 1: where we're putting out lots of fun stuff. On Twitter,
Speaker 1: we're Thinking Sideways without the G in the middle. We
Speaker 1: are on Reddit. Our subreddit is Thinking Sideways, And of
Speaker 1: course you can always go ahead and get a hold
Speaker 1: of us if you want to get ahold of us
Speaker 1: via email that would be Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail
Speaker 1: dot com, where you can send in story suggestions, concerns,
Speaker 1: general accolades, whatever you want to share. We will totally,
Speaker 1: totally happily chat with you about any of that. That
Speaker 1: having been said, I've really i've really got nothing else
Speaker 1: to float here, so I think we have plumbed the
Speaker 1: depths of the mystery. I don't have anything for this.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, all right. Well then, ladies and gentlemen, well
Speaker 1: talk to you next week. By guys