Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
Speaker 1: and today we're talking how to avoid and combat crushing
Speaker 1: medical debt with doctor Virgie Ellington.
Speaker 2: Deest of the leading cause of personal bankruptcy is you
Speaker 2: guessed it, medical bills. So when a singular expense like
Speaker 2: this is such a blight on our personal finances, you
Speaker 2: better believe that we're going to spend a minute on
Speaker 2: how we can not only eliminate medical debt, but just
Speaker 2: avoid it in the first place. So here are some
Speaker 2: some more sobering statistics. And estimated one hundred million Americans
Speaker 2: have amassed nearly two hundred billion dollars in medical debt,
Speaker 2: and nearly one in five adults have medical debt that
Speaker 2: is currently in collections. This is according to us study
Speaker 2: by the Journal of the American Medical Association. And that
Speaker 2: is why we're happy to have doctor Virgie Bright Ellington
Speaker 2: joining us today on the pod. She obviously, I said doctor,
Speaker 2: so she's an insider and her book Crushed Medical Debt.
Speaker 2: It outlines the steps that we need to take to
Speaker 2: ensure that we're not paying money that we don't owe
Speaker 2: so we can avoid becoming one of those statistics. I
Speaker 2: just mentioned earlier. So doctor Virgie, thank you so much
Speaker 2: for joining us today on the podcast.
Speaker 3: You know what, thank you so much for having me guys.
Speaker 3: It's awesome talking with you. Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, we're really excited for this conversation because I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people might say bull ring, but Matt
Speaker 1: just highlighted so many rings. Yes, it's like money.
Speaker 3: It is not boring exactly.
Speaker 1: And we like money, and we like keeping money in
Speaker 1: our pockets, and this we want.
Speaker 3: To keep your money.
Speaker 1: Yes, this is a place where we get separated from
Speaker 1: our money. So it's really important to talk about. But
Speaker 1: the first question we have for everybody who comes on
Speaker 1: the show is Matt and I we like to splurge
Speaker 1: a little bit into here and now on a couple
Speaker 1: things we enjoy. One of those things is craft beer,
Speaker 1: even though I know you're a doctor and you might
Speaker 1: say it's not the ideal choice, right, but that is
Speaker 1: something we do enjoy. And moderation. What is that thing
Speaker 1: you like to splour John in the here? Now? What
Speaker 1: do you spend more money on in your personal life
Speaker 1: while you're also still making wise choices for the future.
Speaker 3: I have to tell you, guys, it is sushi and
Speaker 3: It's one of those things that sneaks up on you.
Speaker 3: You write with any addiction, you don't realize you trouble
Speaker 3: until something happens right is just matched in your face.
Speaker 3: And I am just so thrilled and fortunate that my
Speaker 3: favorite sushi place delivers and I'm just like doing my thing.
Speaker 3: And then the day after Black Friday, so the day
Speaker 3: after Thanksgiving one year, I order my sushi usual thing
Speaker 3: and the guy, you know, just really sweet, you know,
Speaker 3: kind guy with his usual smile, has in one hand
Speaker 3: the sushi bag and then the other hand a big
Speaker 3: giant bottle of sake. And it hit me. I was like,
Speaker 3: I spend so much money with these folks, just like
Speaker 3: they're like, okay, we're going to get in on, you know,
Speaker 3: giving our best customers a big giant pressure. And that's
Speaker 3: when I figured out, you know what, Virgie, you have
Speaker 3: a problem. We're spending too much with a lot of
Speaker 3: money on sushi.
Speaker 2: Okay, then quick follow up. Do you like the the
Speaker 2: different roles that they make, you know, with the different ingredients,
Speaker 2: or do you like the super fresh, high end cutting
Speaker 2: meat there just on that perfectly formed piece of rice?
Speaker 3: You know what? I really I'm pretty predictable. I really
Speaker 3: enjoy the salmon, that fresh salmon surrounded by carbs. You know,
Speaker 3: there's just nothing like pure white rice carbs. It's also
Speaker 3: a little bit of extra fat that mouth feel with
Speaker 3: the avocados. So my thing right when I'm trying to
Speaker 3: be healthy and be a good girl is the salmon
Speaker 3: avocado role. But when I am being a bad girl,
Speaker 3: I always have to get this shrimped tempearl with it fry.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, be that so that's.
Speaker 3: Me they again, these guys have my order down cold.
Speaker 2: I love it. Yeah, that's so good. Speaking of that
Speaker 2: rice that those cars, I've been trying to talk Joel
Speaker 2: into getting the high end rice that they sell at Costco.
Speaker 2: It's like three times the price of the cheaper stuff.
Speaker 1: But it's so much. But when you buy a back
Speaker 1: in Costco, it's still last year, five years. You're still
Speaker 1: exactly all.
Speaker 2: Right, doctor Virgie. Let's let's kind of dive into talking
Speaker 2: about medical debt, and you know, like here on the podcast,
Speaker 2: like I don't think there's much reason for us to
Speaker 2: talk necessarily about like policy shortcomings and how this impacts
Speaker 2: millions of folks across the country quite untimately, every year.
Speaker 2: But given the lack of political will and output and
Speaker 2: changes we've seen oftentimes seen that we were just left
Speaker 2: to advocate for ourselves. Is that your experience and what
Speaker 2: you've seen working with patients, This.
Speaker 3: Is the problem, guys. The issue is is that in
Speaker 3: the United States, in order to have medical financial literacy,
Speaker 3: you it's just it's really really people feel like it's
Speaker 3: impossible to have. But in the United States, you have
Speaker 3: to have medical financial literacy in order to have financial stability, period,
Speaker 3: because most Americans, even those of us with fabulous insurance,
Speaker 3: are just one accident or serious illness away from a
Speaker 3: lifetime of debt or worse. And so people think, well,
Speaker 3: we don't have any other choice. You know that we're
Speaker 3: just stuck with this system, and it's an expensive system,
Speaker 3: and it is what it is. No, that's the bad news.
Speaker 3: The good news is, no, it doesn't have to be
Speaker 3: this way. It doesn't have to be that way. So, no,
Speaker 3: we have control over not getting taken advantage of. We
Speaker 3: have control over not becoming victims to predatory billing. We
Speaker 3: just don't know it. Ninety nine point nine percent of
Speaker 3: us don't know it.
Speaker 1: I feel like we've all talked to somebody who says
Speaker 1: I avoided going in to seek medical care because I
Speaker 1: was worried about the financial repercussions of going in to
Speaker 1: see the doctor or going to the hospital. And so
Speaker 1: people will avoid getting the medical care they need sometimes
Speaker 1: because they're scared of the financial outcome, which says a lot, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's kind of scary stuff that people won't
Speaker 1: get what they need, they won't see someone who can
Speaker 1: help them with their problem because they're worried about how
Speaker 1: much it's going to cost.
Speaker 3: You know, you guys are talking about the statistics at
Speaker 3: the beginning the top of our conversation, and what's really
Speaker 3: really sad and heartbreaking is scary, is that there's direct
Speaker 3: relationship between having medical bills meaning medical debt meaning it's
Speaker 3: a bill that you can't pay off in total at
Speaker 3: the end of the month, and life span. So people
Speaker 3: put off to your point, people put off getting care
Speaker 3: because they can't afford it. They're afraid of the bill,
Speaker 3: and something that could have been preventative maybe before the
Speaker 3: issue started, or like screening type stuff or something that
Speaker 3: was small gets really really huge and it's really expensive
Speaker 3: and or can shorten your life. So it's real there
Speaker 3: is a lot of statistics that bear this out, that
Speaker 3: the American life span actually is shortened by debt.
Speaker 1: Well, and I mean that everybody's heard of the phrase
Speaker 1: that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of care.
Speaker 3: Right, if we just would And I always say, you know,
Speaker 3: I tell my family this all the time. I say,
Speaker 3: you know, not a pound of care. I say, worth
Speaker 3: more than ten pounds of care. Ounce of prevention is
Speaker 3: worth more than ten pounds of cure. It's just I
Speaker 3: can't even begin to tell you believe that it's a
Speaker 3: big deal. And you know, the student debt. I saw
Speaker 3: you guys are talking about that the other week. The
Speaker 3: student debt or student loan pause is ending, you know,
Speaker 3: at the end of this month, so basically all of
Speaker 3: the payments are now due again as of October first.
Speaker 3: There's a study that came out last week that showed
Speaker 3: those folks with student debt have lower health outcomes and
Speaker 3: higher essentially medical more medical problems, and actually end up
Speaker 3: having more medical bills because they're cutting back on other
Speaker 3: things trying to make those student debt payments. So there's
Speaker 3: a direct relationship between debt and destroyed families, destroyed lives,
Speaker 3: and financial futures.
Speaker 2: Sure, and foregoing some of that care. That would be
Speaker 2: the classic example of being cheap versus frugal, which we.
Speaker 3: Talk penny wise pound for sure exactly.
Speaker 2: Okay, So what you kind of I mean, you launched
Speaker 2: into your book right like right out of the gate,
Speaker 2: you kind of give some different case studies, and you
Speaker 2: gave one where you were documenting basically signing an agreement
Speaker 2: for these services before there was any services being provided.
Speaker 2: So how common is this tactic? And you know, is
Speaker 2: there a chance that if you are faced with one
Speaker 2: of those and it feels like you're being pressured to
Speaker 2: pay that, is there a chance that you would potentially
Speaker 2: not receive care, you know, were you to actually refuse
Speaker 2: signing one of those questions? How does that work?
Speaker 3: You know? And I laugh. I always say this. I
Speaker 3: laugh so I don't cry. And that's how I got
Speaker 3: into this work really literally was I had been a
Speaker 3: internal medicine physician for god knows how many years, and
Speaker 3: I was a health insurance executive, which gave me a
Speaker 3: complete three hundred and sixty degree total view of the
Speaker 3: US healthcare system and how it works, or so I thought,
Speaker 3: until I became a patient and met Mia, my hospital roommate,
Speaker 3: who told me she had been tripped into signing a
Speaker 3: bill or agreement I should say to pay a bill
Speaker 3: that I was pretty sure she didn't owe, but I
Speaker 3: was definitely sure it was putting her and her family
Speaker 3: into a lifetime of debt. The thing is is that
Speaker 3: in an emergency situation, when you go into an emergency room, no,
Speaker 3: you don't have to agree, you don't have to sign anything.
Speaker 3: The care has to be provided to you until you
Speaker 3: are stabilized. Once you're stabilized, they can ship you out
Speaker 3: to someplace else that gives charity care or free care,
Speaker 3: that kind of thing. My point to her was when
Speaker 3: I was talking with her, she was telling me the
Speaker 3: story about the last time she had been in the
Speaker 3: hospital the year prior, and it was for the same thing.
Speaker 3: She was being worked up, something happened, and they were
Speaker 3: concerned doing these tests on her and kept her for
Speaker 3: a week doing all these tests because they were concerned
Speaker 3: that she was having a rare reaction of rare something.
Speaker 3: And she was telling me that she was really concerned
Speaker 3: about what this is going to cost this current hospitalization
Speaker 3: because and she told me the story about yeah, when
Speaker 3: this happened to me a year ago. One of the
Speaker 3: hospital representatives came in and said, hey, before you can leave,
Speaker 3: you need to sign this, and she explained, well, I
Speaker 3: had insurance, I don't know what they were asking me
Speaker 3: to sign. And guysa she was telling me the story,
Speaker 3: I realized, oh my gosh, they tricked her into believing
Speaker 3: that she had to sign to agree to be balance built.
Speaker 3: And what that means is that if you have insurance,
Speaker 3: if your provider a hospital in this case, is in
Speaker 3: network with your insurance, it means they accept your insurance,
Speaker 3: they have to take whatever the insurance pays them for
Speaker 3: the services that they provide. So let's say that the
Speaker 3: usual care for a service or service, the price for
Speaker 3: a service that they offer is one hundred dollars. But
Speaker 3: the insurance company says, well, if you want to be
Speaker 3: a network with us and have access to our millions,
Speaker 3: hundreds of thousands to millions of patients, then you know
Speaker 3: you're going to have to accept this as payment and
Speaker 3: full and we only pay like ten dollars for this service.
Speaker 3: So that is a contract with between the provider with
Speaker 3: the insurance company saying what they're going to take for
Speaker 3: their members. For this particular insurance company as payment in full.
Speaker 3: Balance billing is going back and saying, hey, yeah, you
Speaker 3: know that service is reprovided for you. Your insurance only
Speaker 3: paid ten dollars. We charge one hundred, so you owe
Speaker 3: us ninety dollars.
Speaker 1: That's breaking balance that agreement right with the insurance company.
Speaker 3: That is essentially contract fraud because the person who is
Speaker 3: agreed to the agreed the party that's been affected negatively
Speaker 3: didn't sign a contract with them. The patients don't know that, hey,
Speaker 3: this is balance billing. This is this is essentially contract
Speaker 3: fraud between the insurance company and the provider.
Speaker 1: To talk to me about also just medical billing errors,
Speaker 1: and there's I think you said in your book that
Speaker 1: estimates are that ninety percent of medical bills contain errors.
Speaker 1: So balance billing is an issue, but so is that
Speaker 1: And so if we have insurance, are they finding and
Speaker 1: pushing back against the errant bills that we're getting and
Speaker 1: how can we find them in contest them if the
Speaker 1: insurance isn't doing it.
Speaker 3: For us, well, the insurance company isn't going to know
Speaker 3: that you're being balanced bill. Think about it. That's why
Speaker 3: the providers are so ubiquitous and feel comfortable doing it,
Speaker 3: because how is the insurance company going to know that
Speaker 3: their provider that their network with balance built the patient, right,
Speaker 3: They're never going to know. The insurance company isn't going
Speaker 3: to see the bill that the provider sent you. That's
Speaker 3: why it's so it's such an ubiquitous problem. Yes, to
Speaker 3: answer your question, there are studies that say minimum eighty percent,
Speaker 3: but up to ninety percent of all medical bills generated
Speaker 3: in the United States have errors. And if you can imagine, guys,
Speaker 3: they're not going to be in the favor of the patient, right,
Speaker 3: They're going to be in the favor of the provider
Speaker 3: and or the insurance company if you have insurance. So, yes,
Speaker 3: it's a real thing. But this is a caveat, I say,
Speaker 3: And in my experience, what I've seen is that these
Speaker 3: quote unquote mistakes aren't really mistakes. I'm being generous by
Speaker 3: calling the mistakes. And one of the top five mistakes
Speaker 3: I talk about is balance billing. So the balance billing
Speaker 3: we just discussed is one of the top five reasons
Speaker 3: that eighty to ninety percent of us have been overcharged
Speaker 3: with our medical care.
Speaker 1: So it's not in oops, it's intentional.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So let's say that we call you on it.
Speaker 3: You know, we get this bill, Hey, you owe us
Speaker 3: ninety dollars for that service that we charge one hundred
Speaker 3: dollars for, but your insurance only pays ten. If I
Speaker 3: call them up and say, hey, I'm looking I got
Speaker 3: this bill from you guys, and I'm looking at this,
Speaker 3: and it says that you're in network with my provider,
Speaker 3: and I call with my insurance company. Rather, I call
Speaker 3: my insurance company and they say, yes, you are in
Speaker 3: network with them. By definition, in network means that you'll
Speaker 3: take whatever they pay as payment in full for the
Speaker 3: services that you that they cover. Okay, so where's this
Speaker 3: ninety dollars coming from? This is I don't understand. And
Speaker 3: they'll say, oh, gosh, you know what, our mistake, just
Speaker 3: disregard them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't realize how big of an issue that was.
Speaker 2: Balance billing. But in your book you talk about some
Speaker 2: of the other common errors, and we're going to discuss
Speaker 2: some of the ways that we can discover those errors,
Speaker 2: and we will get some of that right after this break.
Speaker 1: All right, we're back from the break. We're still talking
Speaker 1: about crushing medical debt, how to avoid it with doctor
Speaker 1: Virgie Ellington and doctor Virgie. We're talking about the bill
Speaker 1: you receive. Sometimes it's a balance bill that you should
Speaker 1: have never received in the first place. And so the
Speaker 1: way to combat that is to call and be like, hey,
Speaker 1: call them out on their fake oops. Right, But let's
Speaker 1: talk about some other stuff too, Like when we get
Speaker 1: a bill that we do owe that the insurance doesn't
Speaker 1: fully cover, Well, one, how do we know that it
Speaker 1: is something that isn't fully taken care of by the
Speaker 1: insurance company that we do actually owe, and then how
Speaker 1: do we get to the bottom of Like you talk
Speaker 1: about medical billing codes and it feels like it's this
Speaker 1: completely new language that we have to learn if we
Speaker 1: want to learn how to fight back against medical bills
Speaker 1: in general, Like, how can we know what that system
Speaker 1: entails and learn how to fight back against it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the way to figure this all out and
Speaker 3: to not have to think, oh my gosh, what I
Speaker 3: do now? What I do? What do I do and
Speaker 3: not get overwhelmed is just understand there's only one right
Speaker 3: way to pay any medical bill, and it involves three
Speaker 3: simple steps. Step one, the key is CPT codes. CPT
Speaker 3: codes are to medical services what bar codes are to
Speaker 3: products in a retail store. So every medical service you
Speaker 3: can think of getting in the United States has its
Speaker 3: own unique CPT code. So every test, every operation, procedure, outpatient,
Speaker 3: doctor visit, anything you can think of has its own
Speaker 3: unique CEP codes. And that is the currency that is
Speaker 3: saying okay, this is the service that was provided. This
Speaker 3: is the common language between providers and payers. So if
Speaker 3: you want to make sure that you're not getting overcharged,
Speaker 3: get the CPT codes, meaning call the provider and ask
Speaker 3: for a real bill with quote unquote CPT.
Speaker 1: Codes, and that's is that typically known as the itemized
Speaker 1: bill as well, So that's.
Speaker 3: The language is played with. It's a game. So an
Speaker 3: itemized bill. They'll say, yeah, sure, I'll send you an
Speaker 3: item We'll send you an itemized bill and it'll have
Speaker 3: all kinds of details of the things that they they're
Speaker 3: charging you for the services you received, but they don't
Speaker 3: have any CPT codes assigned to them. CPT codes are
Speaker 3: usually about or usually five digits and at the top
Speaker 3: of every bill if you scan it and it doesn't
Speaker 3: have something at the top that says CPT or c
Speaker 3: PT slash kicks picks hcpcs, which is a subtype of
Speaker 3: CPT code, then it's not a real bill. There is
Speaker 3: no insurance organization company in the country period that will
Speaker 3: accept a bill that doesn't have CPT codes. Fly do
Speaker 3: providers send insurance companies different bills, then they send patients
Speaker 3: ninety nine points, I'd say nine times out of ten.
Speaker 3: There are some hospitals that will send a real bill
Speaker 3: the first time without having a call back and request one.
Speaker 3: But if you call them and say I need an
Speaker 3: itemize bill, they'll say, yeah, sure, and it makes them
Speaker 3: very happy. They'll send you a very long list of
Speaker 3: something that even says they'll have codes at the top
Speaker 3: or service codes at the top, and it means nothing.
Speaker 1: Guys.
Speaker 3: It's language that's internal to that organization or to that
Speaker 3: medical system. It is not a CPT code. That is
Speaker 3: the common language that the providers and payers in the
Speaker 3: United States speak for paying for medical care.
Speaker 1: Okay, So once we have those CPT codes for a
Speaker 1: lot of people, it's going to feel like reading Latin,
Speaker 1: going back to high school looking at a dead language
Speaker 1: sort of thing. So what do we do with that
Speaker 1: information once we have it in hand?
Speaker 3: So, yeah, now you finally have your bill, the real
Speaker 3: bill that has CPT codes. And step two, you're going
Speaker 3: to take each of those codes and you're going to
Speaker 3: google what Medicare pays for each of those services. You're
Speaker 3: actually why you're googling. You're doing two things. You're going
Speaker 3: to plug in and let's use an example. I like
Speaker 3: to use a lot CPT nine ninety two one three,
Speaker 3: and that describes a type of outpatient office visit. You
Speaker 3: plug that in, you do an Internet search, Google it,
Speaker 3: and up will pop some descriptions of that code. And
Speaker 3: what you're doing is basically just making sure it sounds
Speaker 3: roughly like the services you believe that you were provider,
Speaker 3: that you were told by your physician that you were
Speaker 3: provided great, and while you're there, you're going to find
Speaker 3: what Medicare pays for that CPT code, for each CPT
Speaker 3: code for which you're being charged now Medicare. The reaction
Speaker 3: I get Joel and Matt often is that people will say, well, Medicare,
Speaker 3: that's for old people. That has nothing to do with me,
Speaker 3: and I say, well, yeah it does, because Medicare is
Speaker 3: the lowest, most fair retail price that is paid for
Speaker 3: medical services in the United States period. So that's the
Speaker 3: number you're looking for. That's the fair retail price you're
Speaker 3: looking to pay. That's the price that shows you're not
Speaker 3: being overcharged, overcharged, or upcharge. For instance, let's say you know,
Speaker 3: God forbid, you had to go into the emergency room.
Speaker 3: You're away a couple hours away skiing and you fell
Speaker 3: broke your arm. Go to the nearest emergency room and
Speaker 3: they're like, you know what they did the X rays.
Speaker 3: You're going to need this set surgically. We'll call the
Speaker 3: orthopedis closer to your home. You can go home. I'll
Speaker 3: just put you in a sling here until you can
Speaker 3: have surgery tomorrow or the day after near your home
Speaker 3: with a provider near your home, or who's a network
Speaker 3: with your insurance if you have insurance. So you go,
Speaker 3: you go home, you get the surgery at the orthopedis
Speaker 3: closest to your home, and a month later, you get
Speaker 3: a bill and you from the emergency room right when
Speaker 3: you're on vacation, and you look at it and you're like, well,
Speaker 3: well no, there's no CPT codes here, So you call.
Speaker 3: You finally get a real bill that has CPT codes
Speaker 3: and you plug them in and one of the CPT
Speaker 3: codes says humoral fracture intervention. So it sounds like well,
Speaker 3: I don't know what humorous is, but fracture it sounds
Speaker 3: like something broken. Okay, But intervention, well, all they did
Speaker 3: was put it in a sling. No, they didn't do
Speaker 3: an intervention. That's an up charge. There is a CPT
Speaker 3: code I'm sure for a sling if they're going to
Speaker 3: charge you for that, but they need to delineate that
Speaker 3: in the CPT codes. They should not charge you for
Speaker 3: fracture intervention. The intervention you had was at your home.
Speaker 3: It was not in the emergency room. So that is
Speaker 3: getting up charged. That's why you're going to take in
Speaker 3: step two. Those CPT codes you work so hard to get.
Speaker 3: In step one, google them, do an internet search, find
Speaker 3: out what descriptions come up. Make sure it sounds roughly
Speaker 3: like the services you had. To make sure you're not
Speaker 3: getting double billed or up charged. And while you're there,
Speaker 3: find out what the lowest, most fair retail price for
Speaker 3: that medical see.
Speaker 2: Okay, so then you've got the procedure, you've got the
Speaker 2: price is Step three just basically saying hey, this is
Speaker 2: what I would like to pay.
Speaker 3: Yep, Matt and Joel, you guys are always putting ahead. Here,
Speaker 3: you got it. Step three is calling back the provider
Speaker 3: and saying, hey, yeah, you know that emergency her and
Speaker 3: your surgery I have last month and I just got
Speaker 3: a bill that the first bill you guys sent was
Speaker 3: like ten thousand dollars. But in my case, I am
Speaker 3: willing and able to pay three thousand dollars. And you're
Speaker 3: not going to share this with you You don't have to
Speaker 3: share this with them. It's not of their business and
Speaker 3: they don't really care. But three thousand dollars is the
Speaker 3: price that you may have come up with when you've
Speaker 3: done the three steps against that medical bill. Medicare pays
Speaker 3: three thousand dollars for the services you were billed ten
Speaker 3: thousand dollars for in the initial bill that was not
Speaker 3: a real bill. And you're going to say, you know what, yeah,
Speaker 3: I can pay three thousand dollars, and you know what,
Speaker 3: that was an emergency. Nobody's prepared for an emergency. I
Speaker 3: can only look, you can't get blood out of a stone.
Speaker 3: I've tried to turn my budget up every which way.
Speaker 3: I can only get fifty dollars a month out of
Speaker 3: my budget to pay this. Who can I speak with
Speaker 3: who can help me set up an interest repayment plan
Speaker 3: for this fifty dollars a month for this three thousand
Speaker 3: dollars that I'm willing and able to pay. So Matt
Speaker 3: and Joel. People also often when I get to this point,
Speaker 3: when I share the example of the three steps, they'll say, well,
Speaker 3: three thousand dollars fifty dollars a month, Oh my gosh,
Speaker 3: even if they would accept that number, it's going to
Speaker 3: take you forever. It will take you forever to pay that, Okay,
Speaker 3: So it'll take you sixty months, five years, half a decade.
Speaker 3: And the reason why they're going to accept it, it
Speaker 3: doesn't matter how long it's going to take. That's what's
Speaker 3: in your budget, and that's what you're gonna stick to.
Speaker 3: You're gonna stick to your guns. And the reason why,
Speaker 3: even though you're gonna get pushback, they've been trained to say, hey,
Speaker 3: you know what, we took care of you and or
Speaker 3: your loved ones during tough time and saved your life. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you're gonna get your money. Yeah, guys, you'll get your money.
Speaker 3: I just want to pay what I owe, and this
Speaker 3: is what I can pay you, and they don't have
Speaker 3: to chase you it costs them money to chase you.
Speaker 2: It's the burglar.
Speaker 3: They know they're saving money. That's why they're going to
Speaker 3: accept you're being proactive. They don't have to chase you.
Speaker 3: And frankly, they know that their bills are not real
Speaker 3: bills to start with. That was a fake number to
Speaker 3: start with.
Speaker 1: And if they have to turn it over to collections,
Speaker 1: they're going to get pennies on the dollar.
Speaker 3: It's exactly.
Speaker 1: It's not gonna be worth their time.
Speaker 3: Probably right, you hit it right on the head.
Speaker 1: Well, okay, I want to ask you this, doctor Burgee,
Speaker 1: because you reference somebody who even with like let's say
Speaker 1: a bill of three thousand dollars, Hey, I don't have
Speaker 1: the money to pay, and it's going to take me forever.
Speaker 1: We can do a payment plan or something like that.
Speaker 1: But maybe that's not even the place they need to go,
Speaker 1: because what about what about qualifying for our financial assistance?
Speaker 1: It seems like from what I've read, something like thirty
Speaker 1: to forty percent of Americans, given their income and their
Speaker 1: family size, could qualify will qualify for financial resistance either
Speaker 1: a greatly reduced overall bill amount or for it to
Speaker 1: be completely forgiven. Is that true?
Speaker 3: Yes, sir, you got it. It's true. So, by federal law,
Speaker 3: all nonprofit institutions, hospital, medical service facilities, medical care facilities
Speaker 3: have to offer to the folks in the communities in
Speaker 3: which they operate sliding scale, income based discounts in exchange
Speaker 3: for not paying any money in taxes, not paying a
Speaker 3: dime in taxes for the hundreds of up to you know,
Speaker 3: hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue. So that's a
Speaker 3: big deal. By federal law, Yes, they must if there
Speaker 3: are a nonprofit facility. And the last numbers I saw
Speaker 3: about sixty sixty five percent of hospitals medical care facilities
Speaker 3: in the United States are nonprofits. So yes, by federal
Speaker 3: law they have to offer that. This is the thing.
Speaker 3: Don't think that just because you have a high income
Speaker 3: that you won't qualify. So I actually had a case
Speaker 3: where the person had a really high income, like I
Speaker 3: think her gross income salary was one hundred and fifty
Speaker 3: thousand dollars a year, but our medical bill was so large,
Speaker 3: I think it was like ten thousand dollars. According to
Speaker 3: their formula for this facility, it was it happened to
Speaker 3: be an academic facility, which are by definite. Usually I'd
Speaker 3: say nine plus out of times out of ten. Their nonprofit,
Speaker 3: this particular facility ten thousand dollars one hundred and fifty
Speaker 3: thousand dollars growth salary, that sliding scale income based discount
Speaker 3: wipe the whole bill away.
Speaker 1: Very nice, but they're not always going to tell you
Speaker 1: that upfront, right, So you either have to like ask, hey,
Speaker 1: what is your financial assistance policy?
Speaker 3: Exactly? Guys are so sharp. So by law, there's a
Speaker 3: law that says they're supposed to post their practices for
Speaker 3: offering a financial aid application. You can call it whatever
Speaker 3: you call you know, whatever name you want to call it,
Speaker 3: financial aid, financial assistance, charity care, whatever you want to
Speaker 3: call it. They have to offer everyone an applicationation to
Speaker 3: apply for sliding scale income based discounts. And so people think, again, oh,
Speaker 3: I make too much money, and well I went to
Speaker 3: this other hospital cross town and I didn't qualify. Every hospital, actually,
Speaker 3: nonprofit facility even in the same town, have different formulas.
Speaker 3: So always always ask. So someone brought this up instead
Speaker 3: of doing the three steps, just ask for a sliding
Speaker 3: scale income based application, ask for financial aid assistance application.
Speaker 3: This is the problem. If you do the math if
Speaker 3: you're saying about thirty to forty percent of medical services,
Speaker 3: meaning medical bills you're going to get in this country
Speaker 3: qualify for required financial aid required federal financial aid by
Speaker 3: the government. So that means that sixty percent seven sixty
Speaker 3: to seventy percent of the medical bills generating these in
Speaker 3: the United States do not qualify for required financial aid.
Speaker 3: So you want to do both. So what I usually
Speaker 3: do is in those cases, if you know that you
Speaker 3: went to a facility that as a nonprofit facility or
Speaker 3: an academic facility, ask call theer billing office and ask
Speaker 3: for a financial aid application. Once you get the bill,
Speaker 3: then you can find out what you owe. If you
Speaker 3: have the whole thing wiped away, they don't have to
Speaker 3: bother to apply the three steps. But if there's any
Speaker 3: money left over, or they don't offer financial lead, or
Speaker 3: you don't qualify, then you know the three steps to
Speaker 3: make sure that you are getting the You're not i
Speaker 3: should say, getting overcharged, you're getting the right bill.
Speaker 2: It's a multi pronged approach, and I think that that's
Speaker 2: a great way to think about it. But once you do,
Speaker 2: I mean what you're talking about there, once you get
Speaker 2: the bill let's say you've kind of passed the stage
Speaker 2: where you can apply for that financial assistance. What you're
Speaker 2: talking about there is negotiating for it. And one of
Speaker 2: the things that you talk about your book to aid
Speaker 2: within that discussion that negotiation is what you call a
Speaker 2: quote unquote battle journal, which sounds really intense, but I
Speaker 2: feel like it also doesn't have to be the super
Speaker 2: confrontational thing. It can even just like basically, what you're
Speaker 2: doing is you're just trying to provide some organization to
Speaker 2: your thoughts. You're trying to provide some organization to discussions
Speaker 2: that you've had, Who you've talked to, what date you
Speaker 2: had that discussion, what it is that you've learned. I
Speaker 2: guess I'm kind of explaining why that's why that's so
Speaker 2: important as well, But yeah, I mean, why why else
Speaker 2: do you need to have a record of some of
Speaker 2: your conversations.
Speaker 3: Yeah, people think that negotiating in whilst something that's aggressive,
Speaker 3: or that you have to know fancy words or no
Speaker 3: fancy medical terms or be really really smart. No, when
Speaker 3: you're doing the three steps, you're automatically negotiating. You just
Speaker 3: it's just very matter of fact. It's just going through
Speaker 3: the steps and when you call.
Speaker 2: Them surprise you're negotiating. Yeah, you don't eize, you.
Speaker 3: Know, you don't realize that, Hey, I have this hard
Speaker 3: number here. They're like, okay, fifty dollars is going to
Speaker 3: take us forever to get our money. Can you do
Speaker 3: one hundred? No, no, you can't. And let me tell
Speaker 3: you why. You're going to stand on your ground again.
Speaker 3: If you agreed to one hundred, you're like, okay, maybe
Speaker 3: I can squeeze and stretch to one hundred. If you
Speaker 3: have a bad month and you can't make that hundred
Speaker 3: dollars payment that you agreed to, they can send you
Speaker 3: to collections right away. So stick to your guns. Whatever
Speaker 3: your number that you come up with, you have to
Speaker 3: stick to it. So that's why you want to use
Speaker 3: a battle journal. And I felt kind of bad to
Speaker 3: your guys's point, I felt kind of bad calling at
Speaker 3: a battle journal, But that's what it is. It's kind
Speaker 3: of like armor for you because you are documenting every
Speaker 3: discussion you have with them. And unfortunately, if something happens
Speaker 3: and they try to take you to collection, send you
Speaker 3: to collections or god wd, be even worse, you know,
Speaker 3: bring a claim against you in court, you have documentation
Speaker 3: of who you spoke with and what was said.
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to ask you about best payment method. So,
Speaker 1: for instance, let's say you come to an agreement, you say,
Speaker 1: all right, I got the CPT codes. I push back,
Speaker 1: and now the true bill instead of ten thousand dollars
Speaker 1: is eighteen hundred dollars, and I don't qualify for financial assistance,
Speaker 1: so I've got to pay it. But I also don't
Speaker 1: have eighteen hundred dollars. Some people will just put it
Speaker 1: on the credit card to be done with it, paying
Speaker 1: interest for months and months and maybe even years to come,
Speaker 1: really harming their personal finances and their future. So how
Speaker 1: should people pay? How do you agree to pay the
Speaker 1: hospital when there is a certain amount you owe and
Speaker 1: you feel comfortable now with the final bill, how do
Speaker 1: you proceed?
Speaker 3: Yes, you do not want to put it on a
Speaker 3: credit card, no matter what. And that's because once you
Speaker 3: put it on a credit card, a medical bill on
Speaker 3: a credit card, you automatically obliterate all of the federal
Speaker 3: protections federal law, legal protections that you have to have
Speaker 3: medical debt not show up on your FYCAL score. So
Speaker 3: when you make an agreement a payment plan directly with
Speaker 3: the facility. I call it, you know, dancing with the
Speaker 3: ones that brought you to the party. Keep your medical
Speaker 3: bill with the people that provided their service. You want
Speaker 3: to do that, because medical bill payments or payment plans,
Speaker 3: I should say that are made directly with the provider
Speaker 3: don't show up on your fical score. And to your
Speaker 3: earlier point, yes, The second issue is once you put
Speaker 3: something in a credit card, if you can't make pay
Speaker 3: it all off, the interest rates and by the way,
Speaker 3: medical or they call them care credit cards are the
Speaker 3: same thing. They say, oh, well, we charge you zero
Speaker 3: interest for two years. I think I saw one last
Speaker 3: year that has like three years of zero percent interest.
Speaker 3: If you make the payments and pay it all off.
Speaker 3: Well what if you can't. If something happens and you can't,
Speaker 3: there you go and those interest rates rack up fast.
Speaker 1: No that makes sense. Okay, well that's great advice. We've
Speaker 1: got a few more questions we want to get to
Speaker 1: with you, doctor Virgie, including kind of where we go
Speaker 1: for help if we're stonewalled with a bureaucracy at a
Speaker 1: hospital or a medical facility. We'll get to questions about
Speaker 1: that with you right after this.
Speaker 2: We are back. We're talking with doctor Virgie on how
Speaker 2: to avoid this crushing medical debt. And before the break,
Speaker 2: Joel alluded to this, but are there any government or
Speaker 2: nonprofit agencies that can help if we feel like we're
Speaker 2: being given the run around, if it doesn't feel like
Speaker 2: that we're being given the right information, what can we
Speaker 2: do about it?
Speaker 3: So, if you received your care at a nonprofit hospital,
Speaker 3: there is a nonprofit organization called Dollar furdal l l
Speaker 3: A r f o R dot org and they will
Speaker 3: help you work through the process of appealing essentially the
Speaker 3: decisions by this facility to not cover you lower your
Speaker 3: bill or they say that the care is this price
Speaker 3: and not the price that you in your research applying
Speaker 3: the three steps discovered with the medicare fair retail price.
Speaker 3: So that's one organization there. The organization that I always
Speaker 3: refer folks to that's also a nonprofit, will help you
Speaker 3: with all medical bills, it doesn't matter if it was
Speaker 3: with a nonprofit hospital, and that's called the Patient Advocate
Speaker 3: Foundation and that's Patient Advocate dot org. And the reason
Speaker 3: why I recommend them is because basically they do almost everything.
Speaker 3: They do everything other than up to not including going
Speaker 3: with you and representing you in court if you get
Speaker 3: taken to court by these unscrupulous, over aggressive predatory providers.
Speaker 3: Now there are some for profit companies that will do this.
Speaker 3: They'll help negotiate bills down and in exchange they take
Speaker 3: ten percent usually as the going number of the amount
Speaker 3: that they save you. So I saw one case where
Speaker 3: the insurance company refused to pay the eighty thousand dollars
Speaker 3: NICK bill for twins because in their records they said
Speaker 3: it was not an emergency. Well, when is babies being
Speaker 3: born ever? Not an emergency like the right? And they
Speaker 3: were sick they needed to go to a NICK So
Speaker 3: how is that? How was that elective? Right? So, anyway,
Speaker 3: the point is the couple tried to go for months
Speaker 3: in between the providers and the insurance company, and just
Speaker 3: the conversation and the information and medical rectors weren't getting
Speaker 3: passed along. So they got tired. It's a war of attrition, guys.
Speaker 3: That's why I called a battle journal. It's real, it's really.
Speaker 3: They just wore them down, and so they finally went
Speaker 3: to a for profit company that helps resolve these issues.
Speaker 3: And so instead of paying eighty thousand dollars, they paid
Speaker 3: eight thousand dollars to the company that negotiated the bill down.
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, I've seen some of these popping up, and
Speaker 1: it seems like for the person who's gotten weary finding
Speaker 1: that bill, it might be a decent kind of last solution, right, And.
Speaker 3: I really disagree. Now, if you're really chronically only has
Speaker 3: some really big major medical issues and hospitalizations prolonged and
Speaker 3: multiple Okay, yeah, but then I would recommend hey reach
Speaker 3: out to just try the Patient Advocate Foundation first. But
Speaker 3: the first thing I want everybody to know is that
Speaker 3: a lot of this foolishness can be just be just
Speaker 3: just not become a non issue if you just apply
Speaker 3: the three steps.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, say that.
Speaker 3: Eight thousand dollars, eight thousand dollars supposed a long way
Speaker 3: to a college fund, starting a college fund for twins.
Speaker 1: Right, that's a lot of money too, And we don't
Speaker 1: want any how to money listeners paying any dollars more
Speaker 1: than they have to be.
Speaker 3: You don't, Oh, that's my point. If you don't know
Speaker 3: what no, all.
Speaker 1: Right, you mentioned at the very beginning of your book,
Speaker 1: you say that a portion of the sales proceeds go
Speaker 1: to this nonprofit called RIP Medical debt, which Matt and
Speaker 1: I we've heard of. They have what I think they've
Speaker 1: eradicated over a billion dollars maybe.
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, that was last year. Just in lessen a year, guys,
Speaker 3: they've gone from over a billion dollars to over seven
Speaker 3: billion with a b dollars and medical bills are eradicated
Speaker 3: for folks facing bankruptcy from these medical bills.
Speaker 1: And these are all right, these are all medical bills
Speaker 1: that have gone to collections and then and then RIP
Speaker 1: Medical Debt is saying, listen, for pennies on the dollar,
Speaker 1: we're going to eradicate this on behalf of people. So
Speaker 1: it feels like it should be something that's unnecessary in
Speaker 1: a country like ours, but sadly it's necessary. But I'm
Speaker 1: also I think it's great that what you're doing with
Speaker 1: part of the proceeds of your book is going to
Speaker 1: help ensure that their work continues to to you know,
Speaker 1: continue continues to make waves out in the world.
Speaker 3: So for every book that sold, one dollar goes to
Speaker 3: our IP Medical Debt, which eradicates one hundred dollars in
Speaker 3: medical bills for someone facing bankruptcy from bills medical bills
Speaker 3: that have gone to collections.
Speaker 2: Very cool. We love that, We love that that that
Speaker 2: is a part of your mission, doctor Virgie. And we
Speaker 2: haven't even gotten to everything obviously that you cover in
Speaker 2: your book, and so we will link to where it
Speaker 2: is that folks can purchase your book, and actually, can
Speaker 2: you tell us where it is folks can learn more
Speaker 2: about you?
Speaker 3: Sure? Well, first, why don't you just like have me
Speaker 3: come back? What's just no part way guys, But if
Speaker 3: you want to find out more, Crush medical debt dot
Speaker 3: com is the place to start. And I'd like to
Speaker 3: send people to Crush Medical debt dot com slash free
Speaker 3: dash resources or just go to Crush Medical Debt dot
Speaker 3: com and the free resources as on the top of
Speaker 3: the navbar there. And the reason is I direct folks
Speaker 3: there because that's where you can find a refresher a
Speaker 3: checklist of the three steps of the Only Right Way
Speaker 3: to Pay every medical bill. So, you know, some people say,
Speaker 3: you know what, I really don't even want to spend
Speaker 3: money on a book. I've just things are just so tight,
Speaker 3: I just know, So go to crushmedical debt dot com
Speaker 3: get this information for free, the three steps of the
Speaker 3: Only Right Way to Pay a Medical Bill and I'd
Speaker 3: say eight to nine times out of ten. You just
Speaker 3: eradicate the foolishness that unfortunately predatory billing tries to inflict
Speaker 3: on folks and make us victims of the system.
Speaker 1: Doctor Burgie. We love what you're doing out there. You're
Speaker 1: making a difference, and thank you so much for joining
Speaker 1: us on the show today.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, thank you for having me guys. I
Speaker 3: love talking with you, and thank you for what you
Speaker 3: guys do. You're doing awesome stuff helping folks master their money.
Speaker 1: Oh well, thank you. Like you're in a kind similar
Speaker 1: missions I think, like minded for sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, mutual admiration society.
Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, thanks again, Take care guys, Matt. Always good
Speaker 1: to have a swell conversation. There's so much, so much
Speaker 1: nuance in this topic of pushing back against you know,
Speaker 1: unethical medical billing is sure is one thing, or maybe
Speaker 1: just an error prone industry as on top of that,
Speaker 1: and there's there's a lot we need to know as
Speaker 1: individuals to fight back.
Speaker 2: She mentioned how they never make mistakes in your favor.
Speaker 1: Right, isn't that amazing?
Speaker 2: So if you are out there and you're thinking, oh,
Speaker 2: I don't think I want to check in because what
Speaker 2: if I'm actually going to owe them more money? That's high,
Speaker 2: highly unlikely.
Speaker 1: You never like that community chest of monopoly, right, bank
Speaker 1: are in your favor, here's one hundred and fifty bucks.
Speaker 1: It's not gonna happen.
Speaker 2: But yeah, what was your big takeaway from our conversation
Speaker 2: with doctor Vergie?
Speaker 1: Okay? I think my big takeaway was to use technology
Speaker 1: to your advantage. And she was talking about, well, one,
Speaker 1: just pushing back getting those those CPT codes, But on
Speaker 1: top of that, she was saying, use Google, right, and
Speaker 1: Google can help you not only figure out what those
Speaker 1: codes mean because it's like a foreign language, but on
Speaker 1: out of that you can figure out what is medicare,
Speaker 1: pay these medical facilities right for those codes for those services.
Speaker 1: And without the Internet and Google at your service, man,
Speaker 1: this must have been so much harder back in the day.
Speaker 2: I think it was probably impossible. Yeah, yeah, So.
Speaker 1: It's nice back in the day, nice to know that
Speaker 1: you've got technology on your side. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: information out there. It's not necessarily right there in front
Speaker 1: of your face. You have to dig a little bit,
Speaker 1: but a little bit of digging can save.
Speaker 2: You a lot. Yeah, absolutely, and that's important. Information to know.
Speaker 2: And so you were talking about figuring out what it
Speaker 2: is that Medicare pays. So I guess my big takeaway
Speaker 2: is going to be related to that, because obviously it's
Speaker 2: not that you're trying to get out from paying a
Speaker 2: bill where a hospital or a doctor took care of
Speaker 2: you and provided you a good service. You just want
Speaker 2: to in what she said and when I wrote this down,
Speaker 2: but you want to be able to pay the fair
Speaker 2: retail value. And you know what if the government, if
Speaker 2: they're the ones saying that, oh, this is a fair price,
Speaker 2: well I want that to be a fair price for
Speaker 2: me as well, like I don't't have to pay some
Speaker 2: marked up right. And so it's not that you're trying
Speaker 2: to pull one on the hospital or the doctor or
Speaker 2: the clinic or wherever. It's just about making sure that
Speaker 2: you're not getting ripped off. And so I guess it's
Speaker 2: not just about having the tools and using the technology
Speaker 2: and figuring out the CPT codes. But it's not not GPT.
Speaker 2: By the way, we're not talking about chat chat CPTs.
Speaker 2: Somebody should make a tool.
Speaker 1: That's chat cpt A I can help you push back
Speaker 1: on some of this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so so it's not just about the tools,
Speaker 2: it's also the mindset and how it is that you
Speaker 2: are looking to approach some of these conversations in some
Speaker 2: of these negotiations, because if you are not afraid, but
Speaker 2: if you're kind of timid about how it is you're
Speaker 2: talking to these medical providers, you may not negotiate as well.
Speaker 2: If you're thinking, well, they did fix me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you might think, oh, I got good service. The
Speaker 1: doctors and the nurses were great, Like, I guess I
Speaker 1: have to pay what I owe, but you should as
Speaker 1: opposed to divorce those two things. Thankful for the great service,
Speaker 1: but then push back against the bill that's out of line.
Speaker 1: And there are specific lines in this that you can
Speaker 1: draw based on the information you can get from the
Speaker 1: internet from just a little.
Speaker 2: Bit of research.
Speaker 1: So you don't have to feel bad pushing back, especially
Speaker 1: because these nonprofit hospitals in particular, have a lot of discretion,
Speaker 1: have a lot of ability thought for forgiveness, and actually
Speaker 1: legally are required to So yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, she was saying that that's another great point that
Speaker 2: I guess I'd never really thought about it, but that
Speaker 2: they are required to offer what the an income based
Speaker 2: repayment plan. Oh my gosh, that's also some excellent information
Speaker 2: to have on hand, Like, these are all things that
Speaker 2: should help you to think. Oh no, I don't want
Speaker 2: to say that you are owed a discount or that
Speaker 2: you deserve a discount, but that is one hundred percent
Speaker 2: an option. Yeah, especially if you're like, wait a minute,
Speaker 2: I get taxed on what I earn the hospital doesn't
Speaker 2: so a little bit.
Speaker 1: I've done this before too, and before I knew that
Speaker 1: this is the reason why it was forgiving.
Speaker 2: Them just because I want to save money, like pay
Speaker 2: less money.
Speaker 1: I was like naive but just kind of persistent, and
Speaker 1: having looked back on those days, I'm like, man, it's
Speaker 1: just interesting. I've probably paid other medical bills that I
Speaker 1: didn't need to, and I don't want other people to
Speaker 1: go through that. I want people to be able to
Speaker 1: know their rights, know how they can push back and
Speaker 1: get their bills either reduced or forgiven, and fight back
Speaker 1: against a system that is really seeking to part them
Speaker 1: from their money.
Speaker 2: Yeah, to feel empowered and motivated to do it as well. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's right man. All right. The beer that you and
Speaker 2: I we both each enjoyed, a Passo fino porter. This
Speaker 2: is a beer by Horsefly Brewing Company out of Montrose.
Speaker 2: Is it Montrose? I don't know, it's one word, but
Speaker 2: it's it's Montrose, but just one word in Colorado. But
Speaker 2: this is a beer from Mark and Caitlin. And so
Speaker 2: they actually live in North Carolina and they embarked on this,
Speaker 2: he said, eighty six hundred mile road trip that included
Speaker 2: a couple of days. Nice.
Speaker 1: I guess at a favorite spot of every road trip
Speaker 1: needs to involve a craft brewery or it's not officially
Speaker 1: a road trip. Sorry, you just drove your car around
Speaker 1: the country, all right, True, you gotta have disc golf,
Speaker 1: I think, and craft beer involves. But yeah, big thanks
Speaker 1: to him taking that's a Yeah, that's gonna be interesting
Speaker 1: Mark and Caitlin, big thanks to y'all. And yeah, this
Speaker 1: beer was. It reminded me of like did you dig
Speaker 1: get a semi sweet chocolate chip where it was a
Speaker 1: little bit bitter, a little bit sweet and not too heavy, right,
Speaker 1: So I love a good porter and too heavy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, too sweet, which is kind of exactly what you
Speaker 2: want on a warmer summer day like we're experiencing now, right.
Speaker 1: So you get that it's not stout weather yet, No, yeah,
Speaker 1: we can do porters.
Speaker 2: If you want some of that roasty flavor, then that's
Speaker 2: when you should be looking to something like a porter
Speaker 2: where you've got those darker flavors without the body that
Speaker 2: weighs you down. That feels like it should. You know,
Speaker 2: it's almost like a blanket. You want a nice heavy
Speaker 2: blanket in the winter. That's also how I feel about
Speaker 2: bigger scouts. If you do what some of that flavor
Speaker 2: here in these warmer months, that's when you offer that porter.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the big stouts are December through February. That's absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2: But then again, you know, we'll probably end up with
Speaker 2: us some giant stout in like two weeks while it's
Speaker 2: still warm.
Speaker 1: You never know. We are equal opportunity drinkers. But that'll
Speaker 1: be the that'll be it for this episode. We'll have
Speaker 1: links to some of the free resources that doctor Burgie
Speaker 1: mentioned up in our show notes at how money dot
Speaker 1: com and a link to her book to so you
Speaker 1: can check that out.
Speaker 2: Yea, specifically the patient Advocate dot org. That's sounding like
Speaker 2: an incredible, incredible site. For sure, you can find all
Speaker 2: that up there. But buddy, that's going to be it
Speaker 2: for this one. So until next time, best friends out,
Speaker 2: best friends out