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Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,

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Speaker 1: and today we're talking how to avoid and combat crushing

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Speaker 1: medical debt with doctor Virgie Ellington.

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Speaker 2: Deest of the leading cause of personal bankruptcy is you

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Speaker 2: guessed it, medical bills. So when a singular expense like

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Speaker 2: this is such a blight on our personal finances, you

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Speaker 2: better believe that we're going to spend a minute on

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Speaker 2: how we can not only eliminate medical debt, but just

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Speaker 2: avoid it in the first place. So here are some

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Speaker 2: some more sobering statistics. And estimated one hundred million Americans

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Speaker 2: have amassed nearly two hundred billion dollars in medical debt,

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Speaker 2: and nearly one in five adults have medical debt that

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Speaker 2: is currently in collections. This is according to us study

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Speaker 2: by the Journal of the American Medical Association. And that

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Speaker 2: is why we're happy to have doctor Virgie Bright Ellington

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Speaker 2: joining us today on the pod. She obviously, I said doctor,

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Speaker 2: so she's an insider and her book Crushed Medical Debt.

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Speaker 2: It outlines the steps that we need to take to

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Speaker 2: ensure that we're not paying money that we don't owe

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Speaker 2: so we can avoid becoming one of those statistics. I

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Speaker 2: just mentioned earlier. So doctor Virgie, thank you so much

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Speaker 2: for joining us today on the podcast.

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Speaker 3: You know what, thank you so much for having me guys.

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Speaker 3: It's awesome talking with you. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: No, we're really excited for this conversation because I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of people might say bull ring, but Matt

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Speaker 1: just highlighted so many rings. Yes, it's like money.

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Speaker 3: It is not boring exactly.

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Speaker 1: And we like money, and we like keeping money in

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Speaker 1: our pockets, and this we want.

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Speaker 3: To keep your money.

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Speaker 1: Yes, this is a place where we get separated from

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Speaker 1: our money. So it's really important to talk about. But

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Speaker 1: the first question we have for everybody who comes on

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Speaker 1: the show is Matt and I we like to splurge

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Speaker 1: a little bit into here and now on a couple

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Speaker 1: things we enjoy. One of those things is craft beer,

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Speaker 1: even though I know you're a doctor and you might

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Speaker 1: say it's not the ideal choice, right, but that is

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Speaker 1: something we do enjoy. And moderation. What is that thing

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Speaker 1: you like to splour John in the here? Now? What

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Speaker 1: do you spend more money on in your personal life

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Speaker 1: while you're also still making wise choices for the future.

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Speaker 3: I have to tell you, guys, it is sushi and

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Speaker 3: It's one of those things that sneaks up on you.

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Speaker 3: You write with any addiction, you don't realize you trouble

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Speaker 3: until something happens right is just matched in your face.

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Speaker 3: And I am just so thrilled and fortunate that my

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Speaker 3: favorite sushi place delivers and I'm just like doing my thing.

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Speaker 3: And then the day after Black Friday, so the day

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Speaker 3: after Thanksgiving one year, I order my sushi usual thing

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Speaker 3: and the guy, you know, just really sweet, you know,

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Speaker 3: kind guy with his usual smile, has in one hand

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Speaker 3: the sushi bag and then the other hand a big

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Speaker 3: giant bottle of sake. And it hit me. I was like,

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Speaker 3: I spend so much money with these folks, just like

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Speaker 3: they're like, okay, we're going to get in on, you know,

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Speaker 3: giving our best customers a big giant pressure. And that's

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Speaker 3: when I figured out, you know what, Virgie, you have

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Speaker 3: a problem. We're spending too much with a lot of

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Speaker 3: money on sushi.

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Speaker 2: Okay, then quick follow up. Do you like the the

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Speaker 2: different roles that they make, you know, with the different ingredients,

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Speaker 2: or do you like the super fresh, high end cutting

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Speaker 2: meat there just on that perfectly formed piece of rice?

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Speaker 3: You know what? I really I'm pretty predictable. I really

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Speaker 3: enjoy the salmon, that fresh salmon surrounded by carbs. You know,

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Speaker 3: there's just nothing like pure white rice carbs. It's also

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Speaker 3: a little bit of extra fat that mouth feel with

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Speaker 3: the avocados. So my thing right when I'm trying to

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Speaker 3: be healthy and be a good girl is the salmon

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Speaker 3: avocado role. But when I am being a bad girl,

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Speaker 3: I always have to get this shrimped tempearl with it fry.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, be that so that's.

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Speaker 3: Me they again, these guys have my order down cold.

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Speaker 2: I love it. Yeah, that's so good. Speaking of that

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Speaker 2: rice that those cars, I've been trying to talk Joel

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Speaker 2: into getting the high end rice that they sell at Costco.

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Speaker 2: It's like three times the price of the cheaper stuff.

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Speaker 1: But it's so much. But when you buy a back

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Speaker 1: in Costco, it's still last year, five years. You're still

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Speaker 1: exactly all.

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Speaker 2: Right, doctor Virgie. Let's let's kind of dive into talking

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Speaker 2: about medical debt, and you know, like here on the podcast,

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Speaker 2: like I don't think there's much reason for us to

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Speaker 2: talk necessarily about like policy shortcomings and how this impacts

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Speaker 2: millions of folks across the country quite untimately, every year.

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Speaker 2: But given the lack of political will and output and

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Speaker 2: changes we've seen oftentimes seen that we were just left

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Speaker 2: to advocate for ourselves. Is that your experience and what

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Speaker 2: you've seen working with patients, This.

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Speaker 3: Is the problem, guys. The issue is is that in

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Speaker 3: the United States, in order to have medical financial literacy,

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Speaker 3: you it's just it's really really people feel like it's

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Speaker 3: impossible to have. But in the United States, you have

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Speaker 3: to have medical financial literacy in order to have financial stability, period,

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Speaker 3: because most Americans, even those of us with fabulous insurance,

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Speaker 3: are just one accident or serious illness away from a

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Speaker 3: lifetime of debt or worse. And so people think, well,

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Speaker 3: we don't have any other choice. You know that we're

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Speaker 3: just stuck with this system, and it's an expensive system,

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Speaker 3: and it is what it is. No, that's the bad news.

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Speaker 3: The good news is, no, it doesn't have to be

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Speaker 3: this way. It doesn't have to be that way. So, no,

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Speaker 3: we have control over not getting taken advantage of. We

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Speaker 3: have control over not becoming victims to predatory billing. We

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Speaker 3: just don't know it. Ninety nine point nine percent of

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Speaker 3: us don't know it.

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Speaker 1: I feel like we've all talked to somebody who says

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Speaker 1: I avoided going in to seek medical care because I

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Speaker 1: was worried about the financial repercussions of going in to

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Speaker 1: see the doctor or going to the hospital. And so

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Speaker 1: people will avoid getting the medical care they need sometimes

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Speaker 1: because they're scared of the financial outcome, which says a lot, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's kind of scary stuff that people won't

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Speaker 1: get what they need, they won't see someone who can

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Speaker 1: help them with their problem because they're worried about how

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Speaker 1: much it's going to cost.

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Speaker 3: You know, you guys are talking about the statistics at

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Speaker 3: the beginning the top of our conversation, and what's really

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Speaker 3: really sad and heartbreaking is scary, is that there's direct

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Speaker 3: relationship between having medical bills meaning medical debt meaning it's

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Speaker 3: a bill that you can't pay off in total at

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Speaker 3: the end of the month, and life span. So people

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Speaker 3: put off to your point, people put off getting care

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Speaker 3: because they can't afford it. They're afraid of the bill,

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Speaker 3: and something that could have been preventative maybe before the

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Speaker 3: issue started, or like screening type stuff or something that

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Speaker 3: was small gets really really huge and it's really expensive

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Speaker 3: and or can shorten your life. So it's real there

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Speaker 3: is a lot of statistics that bear this out, that

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Speaker 3: the American life span actually is shortened by debt.

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Speaker 1: Well, and I mean that everybody's heard of the phrase

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Speaker 1: that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of care.

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Speaker 3: Right, if we just would And I always say, you know,

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Speaker 3: I tell my family this all the time. I say,

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Speaker 3: you know, not a pound of care. I say, worth

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Speaker 3: more than ten pounds of care. Ounce of prevention is

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Speaker 3: worth more than ten pounds of cure. It's just I

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Speaker 3: can't even begin to tell you believe that it's a

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Speaker 3: big deal. And you know, the student debt. I saw

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Speaker 3: you guys are talking about that the other week. The

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Speaker 3: student debt or student loan pause is ending, you know,

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Speaker 3: at the end of this month, so basically all of

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Speaker 3: the payments are now due again as of October first.

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Speaker 3: There's a study that came out last week that showed

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Speaker 3: those folks with student debt have lower health outcomes and

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Speaker 3: higher essentially medical more medical problems, and actually end up

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Speaker 3: having more medical bills because they're cutting back on other

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Speaker 3: things trying to make those student debt payments. So there's

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Speaker 3: a direct relationship between debt and destroyed families, destroyed lives,

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Speaker 3: and financial futures.

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Speaker 2: Sure, and foregoing some of that care. That would be

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Speaker 2: the classic example of being cheap versus frugal, which we.

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Speaker 3: Talk penny wise pound for sure exactly.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So what you kind of I mean, you launched

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Speaker 2: into your book right like right out of the gate,

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Speaker 2: you kind of give some different case studies, and you

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Speaker 2: gave one where you were documenting basically signing an agreement

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Speaker 2: for these services before there was any services being provided.

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Speaker 2: So how common is this tactic? And you know, is

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Speaker 2: there a chance that if you are faced with one

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Speaker 2: of those and it feels like you're being pressured to

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Speaker 2: pay that, is there a chance that you would potentially

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Speaker 2: not receive care, you know, were you to actually refuse

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Speaker 2: signing one of those questions? How does that work?

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Speaker 3: You know? And I laugh. I always say this. I

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Speaker 3: laugh so I don't cry. And that's how I got

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Speaker 3: into this work really literally was I had been a

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Speaker 3: internal medicine physician for god knows how many years, and

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Speaker 3: I was a health insurance executive, which gave me a

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Speaker 3: complete three hundred and sixty degree total view of the

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Speaker 3: US healthcare system and how it works, or so I thought,

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Speaker 3: until I became a patient and met Mia, my hospital roommate,

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Speaker 3: who told me she had been tripped into signing a

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Speaker 3: bill or agreement I should say to pay a bill

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Speaker 3: that I was pretty sure she didn't owe, but I

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Speaker 3: was definitely sure it was putting her and her family

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Speaker 3: into a lifetime of debt. The thing is is that

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Speaker 3: in an emergency situation, when you go into an emergency room, no,

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Speaker 3: you don't have to agree, you don't have to sign anything.

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Speaker 3: The care has to be provided to you until you

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Speaker 3: are stabilized. Once you're stabilized, they can ship you out

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Speaker 3: to someplace else that gives charity care or free care,

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Speaker 3: that kind of thing. My point to her was when

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Speaker 3: I was talking with her, she was telling me the

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Speaker 3: story about the last time she had been in the

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Speaker 3: hospital the year prior, and it was for the same thing.

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Speaker 3: She was being worked up, something happened, and they were

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Speaker 3: concerned doing these tests on her and kept her for

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Speaker 3: a week doing all these tests because they were concerned

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Speaker 3: that she was having a rare reaction of rare something.

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Speaker 3: And she was telling me that she was really concerned

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Speaker 3: about what this is going to cost this current hospitalization

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Speaker 3: because and she told me the story about yeah, when

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Speaker 3: this happened to me a year ago. One of the

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Speaker 3: hospital representatives came in and said, hey, before you can leave,

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Speaker 3: you need to sign this, and she explained, well, I

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Speaker 3: had insurance, I don't know what they were asking me

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Speaker 3: to sign. And guysa she was telling me the story,

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Speaker 3: I realized, oh my gosh, they tricked her into believing

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Speaker 3: that she had to sign to agree to be balance built.

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Speaker 3: And what that means is that if you have insurance,

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Speaker 3: if your provider a hospital in this case, is in

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Speaker 3: network with your insurance, it means they accept your insurance,

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Speaker 3: they have to take whatever the insurance pays them for

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Speaker 3: the services that they provide. So let's say that the

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Speaker 3: usual care for a service or service, the price for

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Speaker 3: a service that they offer is one hundred dollars. But

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Speaker 3: the insurance company says, well, if you want to be

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Speaker 3: a network with us and have access to our millions,

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Speaker 3: hundreds of thousands to millions of patients, then you know

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Speaker 3: you're going to have to accept this as payment and

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Speaker 3: full and we only pay like ten dollars for this service.

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Speaker 3: So that is a contract with between the provider with

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Speaker 3: the insurance company saying what they're going to take for

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Speaker 3: their members. For this particular insurance company as payment in full.

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Speaker 3: Balance billing is going back and saying, hey, yeah, you

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Speaker 3: know that service is reprovided for you. Your insurance only

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Speaker 3: paid ten dollars. We charge one hundred, so you owe

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Speaker 3: us ninety dollars.

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Speaker 1: That's breaking balance that agreement right with the insurance company.

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Speaker 3: That is essentially contract fraud because the person who is

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Speaker 3: agreed to the agreed the party that's been affected negatively

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Speaker 3: didn't sign a contract with them. The patients don't know that, hey,

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Speaker 3: this is balance billing. This is this is essentially contract

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Speaker 3: fraud between the insurance company and the provider.

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Speaker 1: To talk to me about also just medical billing errors,

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Speaker 1: and there's I think you said in your book that

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Speaker 1: estimates are that ninety percent of medical bills contain errors.

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Speaker 1: So balance billing is an issue, but so is that

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Speaker 1: And so if we have insurance, are they finding and

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Speaker 1: pushing back against the errant bills that we're getting and

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Speaker 1: how can we find them in contest them if the

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Speaker 1: insurance isn't doing it.

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Speaker 3: For us, well, the insurance company isn't going to know

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Speaker 3: that you're being balanced bill. Think about it. That's why

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Speaker 3: the providers are so ubiquitous and feel comfortable doing it,

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Speaker 3: because how is the insurance company going to know that

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Speaker 3: their provider that their network with balance built the patient, right,

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Speaker 3: They're never going to know. The insurance company isn't going

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Speaker 3: to see the bill that the provider sent you. That's

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Speaker 3: why it's so it's such an ubiquitous problem. Yes, to

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Speaker 3: answer your question, there are studies that say minimum eighty percent,

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Speaker 3: but up to ninety percent of all medical bills generated

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Speaker 3: in the United States have errors. And if you can imagine, guys,

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Speaker 3: they're not going to be in the favor of the patient, right,

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Speaker 3: They're going to be in the favor of the provider

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Speaker 3: and or the insurance company if you have insurance. So, yes,

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Speaker 3: it's a real thing. But this is a caveat, I say,

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Speaker 3: And in my experience, what I've seen is that these

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Speaker 3: quote unquote mistakes aren't really mistakes. I'm being generous by

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Speaker 3: calling the mistakes. And one of the top five mistakes

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Speaker 3: I talk about is balance billing. So the balance billing

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Speaker 3: we just discussed is one of the top five reasons

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Speaker 3: that eighty to ninety percent of us have been overcharged

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Speaker 3: with our medical care.

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Speaker 1: So it's not in oops, it's intentional.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So let's say that we call you on it.

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Speaker 3: You know, we get this bill, Hey, you owe us

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Speaker 3: ninety dollars for that service that we charge one hundred

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Speaker 3: dollars for, but your insurance only pays ten. If I

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Speaker 3: call them up and say, hey, I'm looking I got

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Speaker 3: this bill from you guys, and I'm looking at this,

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Speaker 3: and it says that you're in network with my provider,

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Speaker 3: and I call with my insurance company. Rather, I call

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Speaker 3: my insurance company and they say, yes, you are in

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Speaker 3: network with them. By definition, in network means that you'll

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Speaker 3: take whatever they pay as payment in full for the

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Speaker 3: services that you that they cover. Okay, so where's this

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Speaker 3: ninety dollars coming from? This is I don't understand. And

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Speaker 3: they'll say, oh, gosh, you know what, our mistake, just

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Speaker 3: disregard them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't realize how big of an issue that was.

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Speaker 2: Balance billing. But in your book you talk about some

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Speaker 2: of the other common errors, and we're going to discuss

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Speaker 2: some of the ways that we can discover those errors,

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Speaker 2: and we will get some of that right after this break.

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Speaker 1: All right, we're back from the break. We're still talking

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Speaker 1: about crushing medical debt, how to avoid it with doctor

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Speaker 1: Virgie Ellington and doctor Virgie. We're talking about the bill

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Speaker 1: you receive. Sometimes it's a balance bill that you should

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Speaker 1: have never received in the first place. And so the

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Speaker 1: way to combat that is to call and be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: call them out on their fake oops. Right, But let's

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Speaker 1: talk about some other stuff too, Like when we get

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Speaker 1: a bill that we do owe that the insurance doesn't

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Speaker 1: fully cover, Well, one, how do we know that it

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Speaker 1: is something that isn't fully taken care of by the

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Speaker 1: insurance company that we do actually owe, and then how

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Speaker 1: do we get to the bottom of Like you talk

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Speaker 1: about medical billing codes and it feels like it's this

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Speaker 1: completely new language that we have to learn if we

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Speaker 1: want to learn how to fight back against medical bills

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Speaker 1: in general, Like, how can we know what that system

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Speaker 1: entails and learn how to fight back against it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So the way to figure this all out and

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Speaker 3: to not have to think, oh my gosh, what I

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Speaker 3: do now? What I do? What do I do and

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Speaker 3: not get overwhelmed is just understand there's only one right

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Speaker 3: way to pay any medical bill, and it involves three

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Speaker 3: simple steps. Step one, the key is CPT codes. CPT

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Speaker 3: codes are to medical services what bar codes are to

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Speaker 3: products in a retail store. So every medical service you

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Speaker 3: can think of getting in the United States has its

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Speaker 3: own unique CPT code. So every test, every operation, procedure, outpatient,

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Speaker 3: doctor visit, anything you can think of has its own

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Speaker 3: unique CEP codes. And that is the currency that is

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Speaker 3: saying okay, this is the service that was provided. This

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Speaker 3: is the common language between providers and payers. So if

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Speaker 3: you want to make sure that you're not getting overcharged,

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Speaker 3: get the CPT codes, meaning call the provider and ask

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Speaker 3: for a real bill with quote unquote CPT.

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Speaker 1: Codes, and that's is that typically known as the itemized

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Speaker 1: bill as well, So that's.

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Speaker 3: The language is played with. It's a game. So an

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Speaker 3: itemized bill. They'll say, yeah, sure, I'll send you an

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Speaker 3: item We'll send you an itemized bill and it'll have

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Speaker 3: all kinds of details of the things that they they're

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Speaker 3: charging you for the services you received, but they don't

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Speaker 3: have any CPT codes assigned to them. CPT codes are

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Speaker 3: usually about or usually five digits and at the top

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Speaker 3: of every bill if you scan it and it doesn't

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Speaker 3: have something at the top that says CPT or c

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Speaker 3: PT slash kicks picks hcpcs, which is a subtype of

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Speaker 3: CPT code, then it's not a real bill. There is

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Speaker 3: no insurance organization company in the country period that will

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Speaker 3: accept a bill that doesn't have CPT codes. Fly do

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Speaker 3: providers send insurance companies different bills, then they send patients

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Speaker 3: ninety nine points, I'd say nine times out of ten.

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Speaker 3: There are some hospitals that will send a real bill

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Speaker 3: the first time without having a call back and request one.

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Speaker 3: But if you call them and say I need an

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Speaker 3: itemize bill, they'll say, yeah, sure, and it makes them

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Speaker 3: very happy. They'll send you a very long list of

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Speaker 3: something that even says they'll have codes at the top

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Speaker 3: or service codes at the top, and it means nothing.

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Speaker 1: Guys.

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Speaker 3: It's language that's internal to that organization or to that

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Speaker 3: medical system. It is not a CPT code. That is

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Speaker 3: the common language that the providers and payers in the

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Speaker 3: United States speak for paying for medical care.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So once we have those CPT codes for a

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Speaker 1: lot of people, it's going to feel like reading Latin,

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Speaker 1: going back to high school looking at a dead language

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. So what do we do with that

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Speaker 1: information once we have it in hand?

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Speaker 3: So, yeah, now you finally have your bill, the real

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Speaker 3: bill that has CPT codes. And step two, you're going

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Speaker 3: to take each of those codes and you're going to

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Speaker 3: google what Medicare pays for each of those services. You're

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Speaker 3: actually why you're googling. You're doing two things. You're going

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Speaker 3: to plug in and let's use an example. I like

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Speaker 3: to use a lot CPT nine ninety two one three,

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Speaker 3: and that describes a type of outpatient office visit. You

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Speaker 3: plug that in, you do an Internet search, Google it,

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Speaker 3: and up will pop some descriptions of that code. And

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Speaker 3: what you're doing is basically just making sure it sounds

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Speaker 3: roughly like the services you believe that you were provider,

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Speaker 3: that you were told by your physician that you were

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Speaker 3: provided great, and while you're there, you're going to find

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Speaker 3: what Medicare pays for that CPT code, for each CPT

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Speaker 3: code for which you're being charged now Medicare. The reaction

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Speaker 3: I get Joel and Matt often is that people will say, well, Medicare,

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Speaker 3: that's for old people. That has nothing to do with me,

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Speaker 3: and I say, well, yeah it does, because Medicare is

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Speaker 3: the lowest, most fair retail price that is paid for

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Speaker 3: medical services in the United States period. So that's the

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Speaker 3: number you're looking for. That's the fair retail price you're

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Speaker 3: looking to pay. That's the price that shows you're not

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Speaker 3: being overcharged, overcharged, or upcharge. For instance, let's say you know,

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Speaker 3: God forbid, you had to go into the emergency room.

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Speaker 3: You're away a couple hours away skiing and you fell

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Speaker 3: broke your arm. Go to the nearest emergency room and

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Speaker 3: they're like, you know what they did the X rays.

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Speaker 3: You're going to need this set surgically. We'll call the

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Speaker 3: orthopedis closer to your home. You can go home. I'll

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Speaker 3: just put you in a sling here until you can

379
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Speaker 3: have surgery tomorrow or the day after near your home

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Speaker 3: with a provider near your home, or who's a network

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Speaker 3: with your insurance if you have insurance. So you go,

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Speaker 3: you go home, you get the surgery at the orthopedis

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Speaker 3: closest to your home, and a month later, you get

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Speaker 3: a bill and you from the emergency room right when

385
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Speaker 3: you're on vacation, and you look at it and you're like, well,

386
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,400
Speaker 3: well no, there's no CPT codes here, So you call.

387
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Speaker 3: You finally get a real bill that has CPT codes

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Speaker 3: and you plug them in and one of the CPT

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Speaker 3: codes says humoral fracture intervention. So it sounds like well,

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Speaker 3: I don't know what humorous is, but fracture it sounds

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Speaker 3: like something broken. Okay, But intervention, well, all they did

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Speaker 3: was put it in a sling. No, they didn't do

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Speaker 3: an intervention. That's an up charge. There is a CPT

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Speaker 3: code I'm sure for a sling if they're going to

395
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Speaker 3: charge you for that, but they need to delineate that

396
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Speaker 3: in the CPT codes. They should not charge you for

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Speaker 3: fracture intervention. The intervention you had was at your home.

398
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Speaker 3: It was not in the emergency room. So that is

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Speaker 3: getting up charged. That's why you're going to take in

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Speaker 3: step two. Those CPT codes you work so hard to get.

401
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Speaker 3: In step one, google them, do an internet search, find

402
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Speaker 3: out what descriptions come up. Make sure it sounds roughly

403
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Speaker 3: like the services you had. To make sure you're not

404
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 3: getting double billed or up charged. And while you're there,

405
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 3: find out what the lowest, most fair retail price for

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Speaker 3: that medical see.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so then you've got the procedure, you've got the

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Speaker 2: price is Step three just basically saying hey, this is

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Speaker 2: what I would like to pay.

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Speaker 3: Yep, Matt and Joel, you guys are always putting ahead. Here,

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Speaker 3: you got it. Step three is calling back the provider

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Speaker 3: and saying, hey, yeah, you know that emergency her and

413
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Speaker 3: your surgery I have last month and I just got

414
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Speaker 3: a bill that the first bill you guys sent was

415
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Speaker 3: like ten thousand dollars. But in my case, I am

416
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Speaker 3: willing and able to pay three thousand dollars. And you're

417
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Speaker 3: not going to share this with you You don't have to

418
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 3: share this with them. It's not of their business and

419
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Speaker 3: they don't really care. But three thousand dollars is the

420
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Speaker 3: price that you may have come up with when you've

421
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Speaker 3: done the three steps against that medical bill. Medicare pays

422
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Speaker 3: three thousand dollars for the services you were billed ten

423
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Speaker 3: thousand dollars for in the initial bill that was not

424
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Speaker 3: a real bill. And you're going to say, you know what, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I can pay three thousand dollars, and you know what,

426
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Speaker 3: that was an emergency. Nobody's prepared for an emergency. I

427
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Speaker 3: can only look, you can't get blood out of a stone.

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Speaker 3: I've tried to turn my budget up every which way.

429
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Speaker 3: I can only get fifty dollars a month out of

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Speaker 3: my budget to pay this. Who can I speak with

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Speaker 3: who can help me set up an interest repayment plan

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Speaker 3: for this fifty dollars a month for this three thousand

433
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,880
Speaker 3: dollars that I'm willing and able to pay. So Matt

434
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 3: and Joel. People also often when I get to this point,

435
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 3: when I share the example of the three steps, they'll say, well,

436
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 3: three thousand dollars fifty dollars a month, Oh my gosh,

437
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 3: even if they would accept that number, it's going to

438
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 3: take you forever. It will take you forever to pay that, Okay,

439
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 3: So it'll take you sixty months, five years, half a decade.

440
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 3: And the reason why they're going to accept it, it

441
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 3: doesn't matter how long it's going to take. That's what's

442
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 3: in your budget, and that's what you're gonna stick to.

443
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 3: You're gonna stick to your guns. And the reason why,

444
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 3: even though you're gonna get pushback, they've been trained to say, hey,

445
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 3: you know what, we took care of you and or

446
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 3: your loved ones during tough time and saved your life. Yeah,

447
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 3: you're gonna get your money. Yeah, guys, you'll get your money.

448
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 3: I just want to pay what I owe, and this

449
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 3: is what I can pay you, and they don't have

450
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 3: to chase you it costs them money to chase you.

451
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 2: It's the burglar.

452
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 3: They know they're saving money. That's why they're going to

453
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 3: accept you're being proactive. They don't have to chase you.

454
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 3: And frankly, they know that their bills are not real

455
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 3: bills to start with. That was a fake number to

456
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 3: start with.

457
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: And if they have to turn it over to collections,

458
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: they're going to get pennies on the dollar.

459
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 3: It's exactly.

460
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 1: It's not gonna be worth their time.

461
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 3: Probably right, you hit it right on the head.

462
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 1: Well, okay, I want to ask you this, doctor Burgee,

463
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: because you reference somebody who even with like let's say

464
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: a bill of three thousand dollars, Hey, I don't have

465
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 1: the money to pay, and it's going to take me forever.

466
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: We can do a payment plan or something like that.

467
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 1: But maybe that's not even the place they need to go,

468
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 1: because what about what about qualifying for our financial assistance?

469
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 1: It seems like from what I've read, something like thirty

470
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: to forty percent of Americans, given their income and their

471
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 1: family size, could qualify will qualify for financial resistance either

472
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 1: a greatly reduced overall bill amount or for it to

473
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: be completely forgiven. Is that true?

474
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 3: Yes, sir, you got it. It's true. So, by federal law,

475
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 3: all nonprofit institutions, hospital, medical service facilities, medical care facilities

476
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 3: have to offer to the folks in the communities in

477
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 3: which they operate sliding scale, income based discounts in exchange

478
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 3: for not paying any money in taxes, not paying a

479
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 3: dime in taxes for the hundreds of up to you know,

480
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 3: hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue. So that's a

481
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 3: big deal. By federal law, Yes, they must if there

482
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 3: are a nonprofit facility. And the last numbers I saw

483
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 3: about sixty sixty five percent of hospitals medical care facilities

484
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 3: in the United States are nonprofits. So yes, by federal

485
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 3: law they have to offer that. This is the thing.

486
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 3: Don't think that just because you have a high income

487
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 3: that you won't qualify. So I actually had a case

488
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 3: where the person had a really high income, like I

489
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 3: think her gross income salary was one hundred and fifty

490
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 3: thousand dollars a year, but our medical bill was so large,

491
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,479
Speaker 3: I think it was like ten thousand dollars. According to

492
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 3: their formula for this facility, it was it happened to

493
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 3: be an academic facility, which are by definite. Usually I'd

494
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 3: say nine plus out of times out of ten. Their nonprofit,

495
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 3: this particular facility ten thousand dollars one hundred and fifty

496
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 3: thousand dollars growth salary, that sliding scale income based discount

497
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 3: wipe the whole bill away.

498
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: Very nice, but they're not always going to tell you

499
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 1: that upfront, right, So you either have to like ask, hey,

500
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: what is your financial assistance policy?

501
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 3: Exactly? Guys are so sharp. So by law, there's a

502
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 3: law that says they're supposed to post their practices for

503
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 3: offering a financial aid application. You can call it whatever

504
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 3: you call you know, whatever name you want to call it,

505
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 3: financial aid, financial assistance, charity care, whatever you want to

506
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 3: call it. They have to offer everyone an applicationation to

507
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 3: apply for sliding scale income based discounts. And so people think, again, oh,

508
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 3: I make too much money, and well I went to

509
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:14,400
Speaker 3: this other hospital cross town and I didn't qualify. Every hospital, actually,

510
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 3: nonprofit facility even in the same town, have different formulas.

511
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 3: So always always ask. So someone brought this up instead

512
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 3: of doing the three steps, just ask for a sliding

513
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 3: scale income based application, ask for financial aid assistance application.

514
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 3: This is the problem. If you do the math if

515
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 3: you're saying about thirty to forty percent of medical services,

516
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 3: meaning medical bills you're going to get in this country

517
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 3: qualify for required financial aid required federal financial aid by

518
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 3: the government. So that means that sixty percent seven sixty

519
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 3: to seventy percent of the medical bills generating these in

520
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 3: the United States do not qualify for required financial aid.

521
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 3: So you want to do both. So what I usually

522
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 3: do is in those cases, if you know that you

523
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 3: went to a facility that as a nonprofit facility or

524
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 3: an academic facility, ask call theer billing office and ask

525
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 3: for a financial aid application. Once you get the bill,

526
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 3: then you can find out what you owe. If you

527
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 3: have the whole thing wiped away, they don't have to

528
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 3: bother to apply the three steps. But if there's any

529
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 3: money left over, or they don't offer financial lead, or

530
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 3: you don't qualify, then you know the three steps to

531
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 3: make sure that you are getting the You're not i

532
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 3: should say, getting overcharged, you're getting the right bill.

533
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 2: It's a multi pronged approach, and I think that that's

534
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 2: a great way to think about it. But once you do,

535
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 2: I mean what you're talking about there, once you get

536
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 2: the bill let's say you've kind of passed the stage

537
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 2: where you can apply for that financial assistance. What you're

538
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 2: talking about there is negotiating for it. And one of

539
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 2: the things that you talk about your book to aid

540
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 2: within that discussion that negotiation is what you call a

541
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 2: quote unquote battle journal, which sounds really intense, but I

542
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: feel like it also doesn't have to be the super

543
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 2: confrontational thing. It can even just like basically, what you're

544
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 2: doing is you're just trying to provide some organization to

545
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 2: your thoughts. You're trying to provide some organization to discussions

546
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 2: that you've had, Who you've talked to, what date you

547
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 2: had that discussion, what it is that you've learned. I

548
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 2: guess I'm kind of explaining why that's why that's so

549
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 2: important as well, But yeah, I mean, why why else

550
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 2: do you need to have a record of some of

551
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 2: your conversations.

552
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, people think that negotiating in whilst something that's aggressive,

553
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 3: or that you have to know fancy words or no

554
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 3: fancy medical terms or be really really smart. No, when

555
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 3: you're doing the three steps, you're automatically negotiating. You just

556
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 3: it's just very matter of fact. It's just going through

557
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 3: the steps and when you call.

558
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 2: Them surprise you're negotiating. Yeah, you don't eize, you.

559
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 3: Know, you don't realize that, Hey, I have this hard

560
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 3: number here. They're like, okay, fifty dollars is going to

561
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 3: take us forever to get our money. Can you do

562
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 3: one hundred? No, no, you can't. And let me tell

563
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 3: you why. You're going to stand on your ground again.

564
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 3: If you agreed to one hundred, you're like, okay, maybe

565
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 3: I can squeeze and stretch to one hundred. If you

566
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 3: have a bad month and you can't make that hundred

567
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 3: dollars payment that you agreed to, they can send you

568
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 3: to collections right away. So stick to your guns. Whatever

569
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 3: your number that you come up with, you have to

570
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 3: stick to it. So that's why you want to use

571
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 3: a battle journal. And I felt kind of bad to

572
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 3: your guys's point, I felt kind of bad calling at

573
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 3: a battle journal, But that's what it is. It's kind

574
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 3: of like armor for you because you are documenting every

575
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 3: discussion you have with them. And unfortunately, if something happens

576
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 3: and they try to take you to collection, send you

577
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,959
Speaker 3: to collections or god wd, be even worse, you know,

578
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 3: bring a claim against you in court, you have documentation

579
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 3: of who you spoke with and what was said.

580
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to ask you about best payment method. So,

581
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: for instance, let's say you come to an agreement, you say,

582
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: all right, I got the CPT codes. I push back,

583
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: and now the true bill instead of ten thousand dollars

584
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: is eighteen hundred dollars, and I don't qualify for financial assistance,

585
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: so I've got to pay it. But I also don't

586
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: have eighteen hundred dollars. Some people will just put it

587
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: on the credit card to be done with it, paying

588
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: interest for months and months and maybe even years to come,

589
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: really harming their personal finances and their future. So how

590
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 1: should people pay? How do you agree to pay the

591
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: hospital when there is a certain amount you owe and

592
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: you feel comfortable now with the final bill, how do

593
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:41,719
Speaker 1: you proceed?

594
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 3: Yes, you do not want to put it on a

595
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 3: credit card, no matter what. And that's because once you

596
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 3: put it on a credit card, a medical bill on

597
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 3: a credit card, you automatically obliterate all of the federal

598
00:32:55,760 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 3: protections federal law, legal protections that you have to have

599
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 3: medical debt not show up on your FYCAL score. So

600
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 3: when you make an agreement a payment plan directly with

601
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 3: the facility. I call it, you know, dancing with the

602
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 3: ones that brought you to the party. Keep your medical

603
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 3: bill with the people that provided their service. You want

604
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 3: to do that, because medical bill payments or payment plans,

605
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 3: I should say that are made directly with the provider

606
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 3: don't show up on your fical score. And to your

607
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 3: earlier point, yes, The second issue is once you put

608
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 3: something in a credit card, if you can't make pay

609
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 3: it all off, the interest rates and by the way,

610
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 3: medical or they call them care credit cards are the

611
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 3: same thing. They say, oh, well, we charge you zero

612
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 3: interest for two years. I think I saw one last

613
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 3: year that has like three years of zero percent interest.

614
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 3: If you make the payments and pay it all off.

615
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 3: Well what if you can't. If something happens and you can't,

616
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 3: there you go and those interest rates rack up fast.

617
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: No that makes sense. Okay, well that's great advice. We've

618
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: got a few more questions we want to get to

619
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: with you, doctor Virgie, including kind of where we go

620
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: for help if we're stonewalled with a bureaucracy at a

621
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: hospital or a medical facility. We'll get to questions about

622
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 1: that with you right after this.

623
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 2: We are back. We're talking with doctor Virgie on how

624
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,439
Speaker 2: to avoid this crushing medical debt. And before the break,

625
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 2: Joel alluded to this, but are there any government or

626
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 2: nonprofit agencies that can help if we feel like we're

627
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 2: being given the run around, if it doesn't feel like

628
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 2: that we're being given the right information, what can we

629
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 2: do about it?

630
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 3: So, if you received your care at a nonprofit hospital,

631
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 3: there is a nonprofit organization called Dollar furdal l l

632
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 3: A r f o R dot org and they will

633
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 3: help you work through the process of appealing essentially the

634
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 3: decisions by this facility to not cover you lower your

635
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 3: bill or they say that the care is this price

636
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 3: and not the price that you in your research applying

637
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 3: the three steps discovered with the medicare fair retail price.

638
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 3: So that's one organization there. The organization that I always

639
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 3: refer folks to that's also a nonprofit, will help you

640
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 3: with all medical bills, it doesn't matter if it was

641
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 3: with a nonprofit hospital, and that's called the Patient Advocate

642
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 3: Foundation and that's Patient Advocate dot org. And the reason

643
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 3: why I recommend them is because basically they do almost everything.

644
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 3: They do everything other than up to not including going

645
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 3: with you and representing you in court if you get

646
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 3: taken to court by these unscrupulous, over aggressive predatory providers.

647
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 3: Now there are some for profit companies that will do this.

648
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:07,399
Speaker 3: They'll help negotiate bills down and in exchange they take

649
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 3: ten percent usually as the going number of the amount

650
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 3: that they save you. So I saw one case where

651
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 3: the insurance company refused to pay the eighty thousand dollars

652
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 3: NICK bill for twins because in their records they said

653
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 3: it was not an emergency. Well, when is babies being

654
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 3: born ever? Not an emergency like the right? And they

655
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 3: were sick they needed to go to a NICK So

656
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 3: how is that? How was that elective? Right? So, anyway,

657
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 3: the point is the couple tried to go for months

658
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 3: in between the providers and the insurance company, and just

659
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 3: the conversation and the information and medical rectors weren't getting

660
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,720
Speaker 3: passed along. So they got tired. It's a war of attrition, guys.

661
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 3: That's why I called a battle journal. It's real, it's really.

662
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 3: They just wore them down, and so they finally went

663
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 3: to a for profit company that helps resolve these issues.

664
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 3: And so instead of paying eighty thousand dollars, they paid

665
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 3: eight thousand dollars to the company that negotiated the bill down.

666
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, I've seen some of these popping up, and

667
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: it seems like for the person who's gotten weary finding

668
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 1: that bill, it might be a decent kind of last solution, right, And.

669
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 3: I really disagree. Now, if you're really chronically only has

670
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 3: some really big major medical issues and hospitalizations prolonged and

671
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 3: multiple Okay, yeah, but then I would recommend hey reach

672
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 3: out to just try the Patient Advocate Foundation first. But

673
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 3: the first thing I want everybody to know is that

674
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 3: a lot of this foolishness can be just be just

675
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 3: just not become a non issue if you just apply

676
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 3: the three steps.

677
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, say that.

678
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,439
Speaker 3: Eight thousand dollars, eight thousand dollars supposed a long way

679
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 3: to a college fund, starting a college fund for twins.

680
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,399
Speaker 1: Right, that's a lot of money too, And we don't

681
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: want any how to money listeners paying any dollars more

682
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 1: than they have to be.

683
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 3: You don't, Oh, that's my point. If you don't know

684
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:10,919
Speaker 3: what no, all.

685
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: Right, you mentioned at the very beginning of your book,

686
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 1: you say that a portion of the sales proceeds go

687
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 1: to this nonprofit called RIP Medical debt, which Matt and

688
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 1: I we've heard of. They have what I think they've

689
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: eradicated over a billion dollars maybe.

690
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, that was last year. Just in lessen a year, guys,

691
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 3: they've gone from over a billion dollars to over seven

692
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 3: billion with a b dollars and medical bills are eradicated

693
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,720
Speaker 3: for folks facing bankruptcy from these medical bills.

694
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: And these are all right, these are all medical bills

695
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: that have gone to collections and then and then RIP

696
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 1: Medical Debt is saying, listen, for pennies on the dollar,

697
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: we're going to eradicate this on behalf of people. So

698
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: it feels like it should be something that's unnecessary in

699
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 1: a country like ours, but sadly it's necessary. But I'm

700
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: also I think it's great that what you're doing with

701
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 1: part of the proceeds of your book is going to

702
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 1: help ensure that their work continues to to you know,

703
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: continue continues to make waves out in the world.

704
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 3: So for every book that sold, one dollar goes to

705
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 3: our IP Medical Debt, which eradicates one hundred dollars in

706
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 3: medical bills for someone facing bankruptcy from bills medical bills

707
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 3: that have gone to collections.

708
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 2: Very cool. We love that, We love that that that

709
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 2: is a part of your mission, doctor Virgie. And we

710
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 2: haven't even gotten to everything obviously that you cover in

711
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 2: your book, and so we will link to where it

712
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,839
Speaker 2: is that folks can purchase your book, and actually, can

713
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 2: you tell us where it is folks can learn more

714
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 2: about you?

715
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 3: Sure? Well, first, why don't you just like have me

716
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 3: come back? What's just no part way guys, But if

717
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 3: you want to find out more, Crush medical debt dot

718
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 3: com is the place to start. And I'd like to

719
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 3: send people to Crush Medical debt dot com slash free

720
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,919
Speaker 3: dash resources or just go to Crush Medical Debt dot

721
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 3: com and the free resources as on the top of

722
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 3: the navbar there. And the reason is I direct folks

723
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 3: there because that's where you can find a refresher a

724
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 3: checklist of the three steps of the Only Right Way

725
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,879
Speaker 3: to Pay every medical bill. So, you know, some people say,

726
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 3: you know what, I really don't even want to spend

727
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,800
Speaker 3: money on a book. I've just things are just so tight,

728
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 3: I just know, So go to crushmedical debt dot com

729
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 3: get this information for free, the three steps of the

730
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,359
Speaker 3: Only Right Way to Pay a Medical Bill and I'd

731
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 3: say eight to nine times out of ten. You just

732
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 3: eradicate the foolishness that unfortunately predatory billing tries to inflict

733
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 3: on folks and make us victims of the system.

734
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: Doctor Burgie. We love what you're doing out there. You're

735
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,399
Speaker 1: making a difference, and thank you so much for joining

736
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:42,320
Speaker 1: us on the show today.

737
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, thank you for having me guys. I

738
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 3: love talking with you, and thank you for what you

739
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 3: guys do. You're doing awesome stuff helping folks master their money.

740
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: Oh well, thank you. Like you're in a kind similar

741
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 1: missions I think, like minded for sure.

742
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, mutual admiration society.

743
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, thanks again, Take care guys, Matt. Always good

744
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 1: to have a swell conversation. There's so much, so much

745
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 1: nuance in this topic of pushing back against you know,

746
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 1: unethical medical billing is sure is one thing, or maybe

747
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: just an error prone industry as on top of that,

748
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:16,919
Speaker 1: and there's there's a lot we need to know as

749
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: individuals to fight back.

750
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 2: She mentioned how they never make mistakes in your favor.

751
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: Right, isn't that amazing?

752
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,839
Speaker 2: So if you are out there and you're thinking, oh,

753
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 2: I don't think I want to check in because what

754
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 2: if I'm actually going to owe them more money? That's high,

755
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:33,240
Speaker 2: highly unlikely.

756
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: You never like that community chest of monopoly, right, bank

757
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: are in your favor, here's one hundred and fifty bucks.

758
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:38,760
Speaker 1: It's not gonna happen.

759
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 2: But yeah, what was your big takeaway from our conversation

760
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 2: with doctor Vergie?

761
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: Okay? I think my big takeaway was to use technology

762
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: to your advantage. And she was talking about, well, one,

763
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: just pushing back getting those those CPT codes, But on

764
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 1: top of that, she was saying, use Google, right, and

765
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 1: Google can help you not only figure out what those

766
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,800
Speaker 1: codes mean because it's like a foreign language, but on

767
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: out of that you can figure out what is medicare,

768
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: pay these medical facilities right for those codes for those services.

769
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: And without the Internet and Google at your service, man,

770
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: this must have been so much harder back in the day.

771
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 2: I think it was probably impossible. Yeah, yeah, So.

772
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: It's nice back in the day, nice to know that

773
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: you've got technology on your side. There's a lot of

774
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 1: information out there. It's not necessarily right there in front

775
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 1: of your face. You have to dig a little bit,

776
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 1: but a little bit of digging can save.

777
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 2: You a lot. Yeah, absolutely, and that's important. Information to know.

778
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 2: And so you were talking about figuring out what it

779
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 2: is that Medicare pays. So I guess my big takeaway

780
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 2: is going to be related to that, because obviously it's

781
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 2: not that you're trying to get out from paying a

782
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 2: bill where a hospital or a doctor took care of

783
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 2: you and provided you a good service. You just want

784
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 2: to in what she said and when I wrote this down,

785
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,320
Speaker 2: but you want to be able to pay the fair

786
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 2: retail value. And you know what if the government, if

787
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 2: they're the ones saying that, oh, this is a fair price,

788
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 2: well I want that to be a fair price for

789
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 2: me as well, like I don't't have to pay some

790
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,280
Speaker 2: marked up right. And so it's not that you're trying

791
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 2: to pull one on the hospital or the doctor or

792
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 2: the clinic or wherever. It's just about making sure that

793
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 2: you're not getting ripped off. And so I guess it's

794
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 2: not just about having the tools and using the technology

795
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 2: and figuring out the CPT codes. But it's not not GPT.

796
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 2: By the way, we're not talking about chat chat CPTs.

797
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 2: Somebody should make a tool.

798
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: That's chat cpt A I can help you push back

799
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: on some of this.

800
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so so it's not just about the tools,

801
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 2: it's also the mindset and how it is that you

802
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: are looking to approach some of these conversations in some

803
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 2: of these negotiations, because if you are not afraid, but

804
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 2: if you're kind of timid about how it is you're

805
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 2: talking to these medical providers, you may not negotiate as well.

806
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: If you're thinking, well, they did fix me.

807
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, you might think, oh, I got good service. The

808
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 1: doctors and the nurses were great, Like, I guess I

809
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: have to pay what I owe, but you should as

810
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 1: opposed to divorce those two things. Thankful for the great service,

811
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: but then push back against the bill that's out of line.

812
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 1: And there are specific lines in this that you can

813
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: draw based on the information you can get from the

814
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 1: internet from just a little.

815
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: Bit of research.

816
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: So you don't have to feel bad pushing back, especially

817
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 1: because these nonprofit hospitals in particular, have a lot of discretion,

818
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 1: have a lot of ability thought for forgiveness, and actually

819
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: legally are required to So yeah.

820
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 2: Well, she was saying that that's another great point that

821
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 2: I guess I'd never really thought about it, but that

822
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 2: they are required to offer what the an income based

823
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 2: repayment plan. Oh my gosh, that's also some excellent information

824
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 2: to have on hand, Like, these are all things that

825
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 2: should help you to think. Oh no, I don't want

826
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 2: to say that you are owed a discount or that

827
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 2: you deserve a discount, but that is one hundred percent

828
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 2: an option. Yeah, especially if you're like, wait a minute,

829
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 2: I get taxed on what I earn the hospital doesn't

830
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 2: so a little bit.

831
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: I've done this before too, and before I knew that

832
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: this is the reason why it was forgiving.

833
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:52,359
Speaker 2: Them just because I want to save money, like pay

834
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 2: less money.

835
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 1: I was like naive but just kind of persistent, and

836
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 1: having looked back on those days, I'm like, man, it's

837
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: just interesting. I've probably paid other medical bills that I

838
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 1: didn't need to, and I don't want other people to

839
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:05,799
Speaker 1: go through that. I want people to be able to

840
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: know their rights, know how they can push back and

841
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: get their bills either reduced or forgiven, and fight back

842
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: against a system that is really seeking to part them

843
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: from their money.

844
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, to feel empowered and motivated to do it as well. Yeah,

845
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 2: that's right man. All right. The beer that you and

846
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 2: I we both each enjoyed, a Passo fino porter. This

847
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 2: is a beer by Horsefly Brewing Company out of Montrose.

848
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 2: Is it Montrose? I don't know, it's one word, but

849
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 2: it's it's Montrose, but just one word in Colorado. But

850
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 2: this is a beer from Mark and Caitlin. And so

851
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 2: they actually live in North Carolina and they embarked on this,

852
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:50,280
Speaker 2: he said, eighty six hundred mile road trip that included

853
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:51,399
Speaker 2: a couple of days. Nice.

854
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 1: I guess at a favorite spot of every road trip

855
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: needs to involve a craft brewery or it's not officially

856
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 1: a road trip. Sorry, you just drove your car around

857
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: the country, all right, True, you gotta have disc golf,

858
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 1: I think, and craft beer involves. But yeah, big thanks

859
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 1: to him taking that's a Yeah, that's gonna be interesting

860
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: Mark and Caitlin, big thanks to y'all. And yeah, this

861
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 1: beer was. It reminded me of like did you dig

862
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: get a semi sweet chocolate chip where it was a

863
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 1: little bit bitter, a little bit sweet and not too heavy, right,

864
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: So I love a good porter and too heavy.

865
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:20,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, too sweet, which is kind of exactly what you

866
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 2: want on a warmer summer day like we're experiencing now, right.

867
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: So you get that it's not stout weather yet, No, yeah,

868
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 1: we can do porters.

869
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 2: If you want some of that roasty flavor, then that's

870
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,720
Speaker 2: when you should be looking to something like a porter

871
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 2: where you've got those darker flavors without the body that

872
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 2: weighs you down. That feels like it should. You know,

873
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 2: it's almost like a blanket. You want a nice heavy

874
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 2: blanket in the winter. That's also how I feel about

875
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,320
Speaker 2: bigger scouts. If you do what some of that flavor

876
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 2: here in these warmer months, that's when you offer that porter.

877
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, the big stouts are December through February. That's absolutely yeah.

878
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 2: But then again, you know, we'll probably end up with

879
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:55,879
Speaker 2: us some giant stout in like two weeks while it's

880
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 2: still warm.

881
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: You never know. We are equal opportunity drinkers. But that'll

882
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 1: be the that'll be it for this episode. We'll have

883
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 1: links to some of the free resources that doctor Burgie

884
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: mentioned up in our show notes at how money dot

885
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 1: com and a link to her book to so you

886
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 1: can check that out.

887
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 2: Yea, specifically the patient Advocate dot org. That's sounding like

888
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 2: an incredible, incredible site. For sure, you can find all

889
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 2: that up there. But buddy, that's going to be it

890
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 2: for this one. So until next time, best friends out,

891
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 2: best friends out