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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from the house stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Josh Clark. There's Child's w Chuck Bryant, and No little

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Speaker 1: Bit even is stuff you should Know. Man, that coffee

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Speaker 1: smells good? You want something? Have a sip? No, I'm fine,

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Speaker 1: but it's just I just love that smells so nice,

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Speaker 1: even though I don't drink much coffee. Oh yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: with you. You know, it's just a delicious smell. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: I'll go to a department store and just walk through

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Speaker 1: the fragrant aisle and just smell the coffee samples they have. Well,

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Speaker 1: I thought you were gonna say you got through the

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Speaker 1: lingerie and just brush up against things after the coffee.

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Speaker 1: So after the coffee sniffing is done and I can't

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Speaker 1: smell anything anymore, right, How are you? Thanks for outing me? Man?

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Speaker 1: It's creepy. Yeah, you know, I'm sure there's weirdos out

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Speaker 1: there who do that. Are you kidding me? There's probably

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Speaker 1: websites dedicated to it. Yeah, I'm fine. Good. Good? Do

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Speaker 1: you like wine? I love wine? How do you know,

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Speaker 1: Chuck that the wine you're drinking, it's actually the wine

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Speaker 1: you're thinking is because nobody bothers to fraudently rip off

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Speaker 1: bottle of one. Not true. Yeah, there's a famous issue

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Speaker 1: in the world of wine fraud. Watch people okay um

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Speaker 1: from Tesco, which is I think it's just a straight

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Speaker 1: up like supermarket Kim in Britain, I saw that. Actually, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're right, And there was a louis Ja dough which

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Speaker 1: normally goes for about fifteen pounds. It was selling on

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Speaker 1: sale for five pounds. That's a good deal. But one

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Speaker 1: of the guys who purchased it contacted some people who

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Speaker 1: are into wine and said, I think this is phony

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Speaker 1: because the label looks like it's a photo copy. So

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Speaker 1: somebody was doing knock off louis Ja dough which normally

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Speaker 1: goes for not that much, and old at t Tesco,

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Speaker 1: who was in turn selling it. And this is a

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Speaker 1: huge thing. Man. There's a big, big debate even still

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Speaker 1: and just how widespread wine fraud is. And it's really

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Speaker 1: difficult to get to the bottom of because there's so

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Speaker 1: many people who have their fingers in this fraudulent pot,

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Speaker 1: whether wittingly or unwittingly, in either way, are unwilling to

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Speaker 1: admit that it's as extensive as it is, or the

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Speaker 1: people who are burned are making a bigger deal out

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Speaker 1: of it than they are than it really is, because

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Speaker 1: they have the money in the context to get CBS

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Speaker 1: to do a story on how they got burned by

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Speaker 1: buying some fake wine. So it's not entirely clear how

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Speaker 1: widespread it is. But there have been some really great,

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Speaker 1: very famous but almost proven stories of outright wine fraud.

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Speaker 1: But it's a pretty new phenomenon. Uh. Well, if you

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Speaker 1: think ancient Roman is pretty new, let's hear it man.

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Speaker 1: Well that's I mean there ever since there was wine,

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Speaker 1: people were making fake wine or trumping it up as

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Speaker 1: something other than it was. So the newer practice, like

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Speaker 1: you can divide it into two things. There was an

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Speaker 1: ancient room they were doing stuff like this and adding

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Speaker 1: like lead to wine to sweeten it while they were

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Speaker 1: killing people. Uh. But then there's the new practice of like, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is a Thomas Jefferson bottle of wine and you

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Speaker 1: con bided a Christie's auction for a hundred thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: and it's really not that at all. Do you remember

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Speaker 1: back in the eighties, Um, I think reu Needy was

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Speaker 1: adding like when you wipe a fluid or something. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was at the very least an urban legend. More recently,

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Speaker 1: there was something added to wine to make it sweeter

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Speaker 1: that was really bad for you. But I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I can't confirm if it was that case or not.

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Speaker 1: This was specifically reu Needy in the eighties. And it again,

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Speaker 1: it could have just been an urban legend because at

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Speaker 1: the same time that there were spiders eggs in bubble yum.

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Speaker 1: You know, yeah, there was a lot of like a

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Speaker 1: consumer uh panic. I think yeah, it was a golden

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Speaker 1: age for urban legends. Yeah, agreed. Uh. And you know what,

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Speaker 1: we need to do one on wine period. Yes, this

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Speaker 1: is so us. Yeah, we'll do episodes on everything but

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Speaker 1: the actual thing, and then we'll finally get to the thing. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And we could also probably do a completely separate podcast

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Speaker 1: on wine tasting, because man, that's a really bitter pill,

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Speaker 1: because there are some people who say there really is

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Speaker 1: no difference in these wines, and there have been numerous

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Speaker 1: occasions over the years where jerks have set up wine

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Speaker 1: tasters to fail by just switching out wines and saying

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Speaker 1: this is a really nice bot or what's really crappy,

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Speaker 1: and they say whoa, this is lovely. The tannons are

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Speaker 1: really coming in. It's jammie and full, and they're like,

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Speaker 1: you're drinking too buck chuck um stuff that. It's a

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Speaker 1: big bone of contention with wine drinkers and also people

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Speaker 1: who like to poop poo that and say it's all

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Speaker 1: subjective and you're all just snooty and either really is

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Speaker 1: no difference, but there really is a difference. Well, okay,

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Speaker 1: so there is a like you say, there's there's a

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Speaker 1: big debate over that, right, um, But if you if

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Speaker 1: you dive into the world of high end vintage wine collecting,

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Speaker 1: it is very um. It's like an aura borus, right,

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Speaker 1: that snake that eats its own tail, in that the

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Speaker 1: people who are in charge of judging whether something's real

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Speaker 1: or not are basing that on their previous experiences, which

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Speaker 1: may or may not have been an experience with a

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Speaker 1: fraudulent wine. So even if you can tell the difference,

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Speaker 1: if you've only been exposed to, say, fraudulent eighteen century wine,

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Speaker 1: then when you are asked to judge a bottle of

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Speaker 1: like eighteenth century wine, you're gonna compare it to that,

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Speaker 1: And if it's ultimately coming from the same counterfeitter. You

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Speaker 1: will be like, yes, this is the real thing, because

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Speaker 1: I've had that before and it tastes like that. Well yeah,

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Speaker 1: and here's the other thing. Is there there is vintage,

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Speaker 1: uh appropriately aged wine that is tastes great because it

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Speaker 1: has aged in such a way. And then there are

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Speaker 1: these super old bottles that apparently it tastes like canned

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Speaker 1: asparagus is the note that it brings out, And these

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Speaker 1: don't even taste that good. It's just the fact that

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Speaker 1: you can own it and show people. You don't even

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Speaker 1: drink it. In most cases, you don't drink at Jefferson wine.

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Speaker 1: You have it in your collection. So some say, look

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Speaker 1: at my collection. Exactly. That's the whole point a lot

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Speaker 1: of people are. For a lot of people, that's the

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Speaker 1: whole point. It's just own this bottle. It's like owning

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Speaker 1: a piece of Thomas Jefferson and you get to show

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Speaker 1: off and and tell people how great you are. Right exactly. So, Um,

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Speaker 1: that's how a lot of wine counterfeiting has gotten away

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Speaker 1: with because the people are never going to open the wine.

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Speaker 1: So whatever tampering you did with the the seal is

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Speaker 1: never going to be discovered. Um, they're never gonna taste

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Speaker 1: the wine inside, so it could be two buck chalk

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Speaker 1: or whatever. Won't see the cork. Yeah. Um, and they're

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Speaker 1: just they're just happy to have this thing and their

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Speaker 1: status to be elevated to the point where they don't

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Speaker 1: really want to know if it's a counterfeit, so long

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Speaker 1: as they can walk around and tell people. This is

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Speaker 1: Thomas Jefferson. Right, Well, we should go ahead and start

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Speaker 1: talking about Bill Coke. He is uh, one of the

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Speaker 1: other brothers. He is not Charles or David Coke of

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Speaker 1: the famous uh Republican Coke brothers, fame billionaire supporters of

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party. Yeah. Yeah, sure, she's saying that's like

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Speaker 1: the nicest way to describe them. Yeah, it is. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He is the brother, one of the brothers who got

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Speaker 1: out along with another brother. Um, but not another brother

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Speaker 1: from another mother. No, they are the same mother, right right, Okay, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he got out of the family business and said, you

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Speaker 1: know what, um, a billionaire, I'm gonna what I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: do is I'm gonna start collecting really rare and expensive things. Um.

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Speaker 1: One thing he has is a gun collection. He owns

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Speaker 1: Custer's rifle, Billy the Kid's pistol. Does he he owns

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Speaker 1: the gun that killed Jesse James. Oh, I'm sorry, is

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Speaker 1: Jesse James Pistol? And that gun and that what was

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Speaker 1: his name? Robert Ford? Yeah? And that was a good movie.

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Speaker 1: Boy was it really good? Beautifully shot as well Wide

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Speaker 1: Rupe's rifle, Doc Holiday's rifle. He has a lot of

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Speaker 1: vintage guns. He has a lot of very famous works

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Speaker 1: of art like original Picassos and monaise As exactly. He

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Speaker 1: sounds like a big sucker to me. And he also

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Speaker 1: owns uh as this article says several hundred bottles of

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Speaker 1: what he calls moose piss. Yeah, that's what he calls it.

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Speaker 1: He said. He Well, he's saying that for all he knows.

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Speaker 1: That's what's inside. He got duped very famously, many many times. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and he has had many many lawsuits over the years

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Speaker 1: that have come out. This guy loves suing people. He

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Speaker 1: does what he calls dropping subpoena is on people. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he sues people almost recreationally. He drops the subpoena on

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Speaker 1: their head. Yeah, what a guy. So he um he

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Speaker 1: Bill Coke again very famously, he's probably the most famous

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Speaker 1: victim of wine fraud. M because he sues everybody he

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Speaker 1: possibly can who may or may not have sold them

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Speaker 1: a fake. Really takes it personally, and he really goes

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Speaker 1: after people. UM. And he did a lot of media

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Speaker 1: about this too, so he's very famous for this. UM.

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Speaker 1: And he brought in some wine experts and said, here

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Speaker 1: are thirty thousand, forty thousand bottles of wine that I

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Speaker 1: have in my sellers. How many are fake? And they

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Speaker 1: just took a random sample of three tho bottles. He

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Speaker 1: kidding me, No, they said exactly, They're like, we'll bill

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Speaker 1: you for this. UM. They took a random sample of

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Speaker 1: three thousand bottles and it yielded a hundred and thirty fakes.

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Speaker 1: So I mean he has hundreds and hundreds and hundreds

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Speaker 1: by by extension of fake bottles of wine in his cellar.

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Speaker 1: And that was actually, that's about on par with what

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Speaker 1: the average not necessarily uninitiated or uneducated wine buyer, but

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Speaker 1: fervent vintage wine buyer would have that about four million

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Speaker 1: dollars seller, about a million of it will be on fakes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and he supposedly spent close to five million dollars on

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Speaker 1: fake wine over the past quarter century, UM, including some

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Speaker 1: of those Jefferson's that we'll talk about. Uh and a

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Speaker 1: lot of this wine came from a man named Rudy

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Speaker 1: Uh crnia Oh that's good stuff. It's even better than

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Speaker 1: I had in my head, you crniawan. I like that,

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Speaker 1: I think. And this guy was one of the most

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Speaker 1: famous um really alongside another guy that we'll talk about,

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Speaker 1: one of the most famous wine fraud discs, fraudster, fraudster, counterfeitters,

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Speaker 1: counterfeitters of all time um And he was sentenced to

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Speaker 1: ten years in prison and supposedly was to pay close

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Speaker 1: to fifty million dollars in damages, which is easily what

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Speaker 1: he made by selling fake wine. In two sales in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and six, he made thirty six million dollars

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Speaker 1: selling fake wine. What a jerk. And it's easy to

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Speaker 1: sit back. And the fence team even used this in

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Speaker 1: court to say, ah, these are rich guys, like no harm,

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Speaker 1: no foul, who cares very if you're ripping off the rich.

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Speaker 1: And I even found myself kind of thinking that. But

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day, who it's wrong, it's wrong,

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Speaker 1: it's wrong. Sure, I mean, like I wouldn't do it.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't sell a counterfeit bottle of wine. Yeah, it's wrong,

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Speaker 1: it's illegal, and it's it's gross. And just because you're

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Speaker 1: ripping off the rich, it's not like he's Robin Hood

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Speaker 1: and giving that then to the poor. You know he was.

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Speaker 1: I didn't have the idea that he was doing that.

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Speaker 1: Plus Um, Dave Rugs, who wrote this, made this point,

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Speaker 1: but I take issue with it that ultimately vintage counterfeit

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Speaker 1: wine fraud affects all wine drinkers because that stuff trickles down.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that's true because from reading this um.

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Speaker 1: There were two really great long form articles that this

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Speaker 1: article was partially based on. One was in The New

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Speaker 1: Yorker and one was on Vanity Fair, and both of

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Speaker 1: them were totally worth reading. UM. But just from reading

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Speaker 1: those you get the impression that those are two very

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Speaker 1: different worlds. That the world of like just regular wine

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Speaker 1: appreciation and vintage wine collection form of ven diagram that

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Speaker 1: just barely overlaps, and that one really does not affect

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Speaker 1: the economy the economics of the other. So if there's

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Speaker 1: a bunch of counterfeit stuff going on in the vintage

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Speaker 1: wine world, it probably wouldn't drive up prices for the

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Speaker 1: wine that you're buying that's you know, ten years old tops.

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Speaker 1: So I don't think that that's necessarily true. His point

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Speaker 1: that we all shoulder the burden that counterfeiters do because

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Speaker 1: these two worlds are so divorced. But even still, like

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Speaker 1: if you were a people are losing money and reputations

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Speaker 1: are being built up and lost. You know, I get that.

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Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's take a little break and we'll

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Speaker 1: come back and uh, we'll talk about the two ways

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Speaker 1: that you can generally go about trying to fake a wine.

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Speaker 1: All right, we're back, We're drunk on wine. I wish

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Speaker 1: what's your favorite wine? Uh? My favorite wines are big

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Speaker 1: bodied California cabernets generally, like not a specific like wine maker.

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Speaker 1: If that's what you're asking, I'm not gonna like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's no wrong answer. Yeah no, Well that was that

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Speaker 1: funny because it made me think of fat bottom girls,

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Speaker 1: that Queen song big bodied California Ca. Yeah, it just

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Speaker 1: potts in my head and I laughed like a goon. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm like really full bodied wines, zimpandels and cabernets. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think California is just they're doing it right. You know,

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Speaker 1: they say petitzeras the Rodney danger field of the wine world.

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Speaker 1: I've heard that. So if you're gonna go about faking

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Speaker 1: a wine, um, you uh, there are two things you

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Speaker 1: can do. You can either fake the wine inside a

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Speaker 1: real bottle or you can fake the bottle real wine. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's all real wine. You know, it's different vintage

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Speaker 1: maybe yeah, but like it could be like a really

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Speaker 1: nice seven wine that you say it's actually from nineteen

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Speaker 1: fourteen or even one. I mean, like it could be

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Speaker 1: within a couple of years. It just depends on on

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Speaker 1: whether it was a good year or if the if

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Speaker 1: there's a scarcity of it, that kind of stuff. And

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Speaker 1: actually Bill Cook makes a pretty good point. His whole

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Speaker 1: thing is he wants to have I think a hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty years of Lafitte or some some house, like

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Speaker 1: every single vintage that they released of every single variety

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Speaker 1: over the course of a hundred and fifty years, which

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Speaker 1: is extremely ambitious. And he said it's easy to get

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Speaker 1: the really prized ones because those are the ones that

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Speaker 1: like people saved in all that. He said, it's the

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Speaker 1: mediocre years that are old that nobody bothered to say

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Speaker 1: this drank and threw away the bottle or just didn't

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Speaker 1: keep it. Those are the ones that he has the

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Speaker 1: most trouble. Fine, or they did skeet shooting. They just

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Speaker 1: had the servants stowed up in the air and they

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Speaker 1: shot him with shotguns. That's what they do. Richie Riches, Uh, well,

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Speaker 1: you make a good point too, because Colonie Allen, although

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Speaker 1: he dealt in the super high echelon, he would also

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Speaker 1: take a two bottle of wine and fake it to

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Speaker 1: be like a thousand dollar bottle. Yeah, he did it

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Speaker 1: both ways. He would he would take out, he would

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Speaker 1: take an old bottle, legitimate real bottle, put in his

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Speaker 1: own mix of wine and cork it again and and

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Speaker 1: make it look like it had never been open. Or

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Speaker 1: like you said, he would take just say, a forty

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Speaker 1: seven Lafitte and mess with the label to make it

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Speaker 1: look like a forty one Lafitte, which would be worth

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Speaker 1: ten times that what the forty seven Lafitte would be worth. Right,

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Speaker 1: And clearly, I also want to point out Lafitte is

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Speaker 1: obviously the only fancy wine that I'm familiar with, because

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Speaker 1: that's my go too. So if you guys are out

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Speaker 1: there and you're getting the impression that I know what

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about as far as wine goes, you have

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Speaker 1: been duped. Well, you're not a big wine guy. You're

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Speaker 1: on sortis such, I like wine. I'm I'm definitely not

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Speaker 1: a wine guy exactly. Yeah. Uh, and I'm that wine

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Speaker 1: guy either. I'm I'm at the very I'm wine guy

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Speaker 1: in the brest sense of the word. I like really

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Speaker 1: good wines. I like going to wineries. But I'm certainly

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Speaker 1: no like. I'm not saying I have some amazing palette.

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Speaker 1: I can't pick out vanilla notes and things like that.

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Speaker 1: I'm just like, man, this tastes really good for up

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Speaker 1: bottle of it. And I tend to fall into that

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Speaker 1: camp where I'm certain that there are people out there,

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Speaker 1: literal tastemakers who can tell the difference between wine and

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Speaker 1: I've had wine that I didn't like before, I've had

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Speaker 1: wine that I do like. Um, But I fall into

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Speaker 1: the camp where I'm ultimately like, it's it's whatever you appreciate.

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Speaker 1: It's no hierarchy, there doesn't need to be. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: a two thousand dollar bottle is not necessarily going to

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Speaker 1: taste as good as a twenty dollar bottle. That that

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Speaker 1: you the whole thing is just about individual enjoyment, and

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Speaker 1: he kind of snobbery associated with it to me just

300
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,360
Speaker 1: misses the point. Yeah, here's my deal is, I can

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Speaker 1: really tell the difference between what I would consider cheap

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Speaker 1: wine and like a decent bottle or a good bottle.

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Speaker 1: But that's where my taste level max is out. I

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Speaker 1: can't tell the difference between a two bottle and at bottle,

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Speaker 1: But if you gave me like a six dollar bottle,

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Speaker 1: you can. You can taste the difference. It's between that

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Speaker 1: and like bottle. Yeah, but even then, if that's what

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Speaker 1: you like, that's what you like. I'm not poo, It's

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Speaker 1: just not what I want, you know. Oh man, a

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Speaker 1: lot of caveats there. So um, we were talking about

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Speaker 1: Rudy kay yeah, and how to how to he faked

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Speaker 1: wines and he was He got real bottles correct in general,

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Speaker 1: and made his own wine concoctions. Here's what this dude

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Speaker 1: did right to get to the point where he could

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Speaker 1: even counterfeit. Yes, he got his hands on real stuff

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Speaker 1: and he ran up some serious, serious bar tabs while

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Speaker 1: he was doing it. There's a very um legendary story

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Speaker 1: of him hooking up with this guy who was the

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Speaker 1: head of wine sales at a um a an auction

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Speaker 1: house called Acker Meryll. They factor in big time into

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Speaker 1: this guy's ascent and Rudy Kay's counterfeit ascent, not weddingly necessarily,

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Speaker 1: but they they let him use their reputation to build

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Speaker 1: his own. But he did it by duping them by

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Speaker 1: throwing like these crazy parties at like um at um

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Speaker 1: restaurants and having like two fifty thousand dollar tabs, picking

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Speaker 1: up the tab himself. But then after everybody left, going

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Speaker 1: to the staff at the restaurant being like, mail me

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Speaker 1: every single one of those bottles, and they go, well, okay,

329
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Speaker 1: it's your wine, but that's weird. Not enough to make

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Speaker 1: mention of it, but it was odd to them. His

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Speaker 1: big thing was that he did it at the same

332
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Speaker 1: place over and over again, so they did start to notice.

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Speaker 1: But while he was doing this, he was also collecting wine,

334
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,960
Speaker 1: to really expensive vintage wine, and there was already a

335
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,159
Speaker 1: market for it, but it didn't look anything like the

336
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,959
Speaker 1: market that he built almost himself. He drove the value

337
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 1: of vintage wine up almost singlehandedly by buying up as

338
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,280
Speaker 1: many bottles of old stuff as he could um And

339
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,400
Speaker 1: while he was doing that, he was building his reputation.

340
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,080
Speaker 1: He was making connections and he was getting his hands

341
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,240
Speaker 1: on legitimate wine that he could use to resell now

342
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:39,200
Speaker 1: that the market was up at a higher price after

343
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,480
Speaker 1: he had already consumed it. It say like a party. Yeah.

344
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Speaker 1: And one thing he was doing that tipped off some

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00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 1: people early on was um. Like you were saying, he

346
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 1: was buying off years of good vintages, great vintages, to

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00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:55,720
Speaker 1: where there was one guy who thinks Jeffrey Troy was

348
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 1: his name. He was a wine merchant and he said

349
00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 1: he was buying these good bottles for French Burgundy, but

350
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,040
Speaker 1: they weren't great, they were off years, and it was

351
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 1: just if he was a collector, it was just weird

352
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,359
Speaker 1: to buy these, uh, and to be adamant about buying

353
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,240
Speaker 1: these because he could get him for cheaper and fake

354
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,040
Speaker 1: them easier exactly, like he could just kind of smudge

355
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,280
Speaker 1: the year and all of a sudden it's a much

356
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:21,200
Speaker 1: more expensive vintage. Um. So he's he's driving the market up.

357
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,800
Speaker 1: He's buying legitimate wine. Apparently he's taking out loans that

358
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:29,480
Speaker 1: he defaulted on to to build this reputation of his UM.

359
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 1: And so when the market hits he starts counterfeiting, And

360
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,560
Speaker 1: there was one story that actually was pretty prominent in

361
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:42,439
Speaker 1: the Vanity Fair article where he was apparently confused. He thought,

362
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 1: and there's no way that any of us would have

363
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 1: ever thought this, but he thought that a Ponceau close St.

364
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 1: Denis was the same thing as the Christine Ponceau close St. Denis. Right,

365
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,639
Speaker 1: he was way off. So it turns out that he

366
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:06,320
Speaker 1: figured that ponce Uh made this wine in Burgundy in

367
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 1: the forties because Christine ponce so close end and he's

368
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,240
Speaker 1: made this wine in the forties. Turns out that the

369
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:17,359
Speaker 1: regular Ponceo, the very famous Ponceau family made their close

370
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 1: end any starting in the eighties, so that he actually

371
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,680
Speaker 1: got found out because of this one mistake. This led

372
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 1: to his unraveling, and he was going to auction or

373
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,399
Speaker 1: sell about like nine bottles of this stuff that was

374
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,879
Speaker 1: overtly counterfeit. It had never existed, which also said a

375
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 1: lot about the collectors at the time too, because they

376
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 1: were covening and paying for wine that they never even

377
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 1: heard of it strictly because these these people were attached

378
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,920
Speaker 1: to it. It's pretty amazing, it really is. And that's

379
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 1: how he was able to get away with it. For

380
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 1: so long because that dinner, the guy Ponceau himself, um,

381
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 1: the guy who was the proprietor of the vineyard, showed

382
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 1: up at that dinner, flew from Paris to I think

383
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 1: New York to be at the dinner to make sure

384
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,360
Speaker 1: that they didn't auction off those things because he knew

385
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 1: they were counterfeit. And Rudy Kay still was left to

386
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 1: just keep going for years after that because because of reputations. Well,

387
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 1: and like you said, he had built up this reputation,

388
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 1: which is a big part of it. Um, you have

389
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 1: to be a true con artist. You can't just go

390
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 1: in there, uh and say, I've got all these Jefferson wines.

391
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 1: I'm chuck. You know, you have to be known in

392
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 1: the community, and it takes a long time, and they

393
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: have to think that right, Yeah, I have to think

394
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 1: you have money, real money. What he did, No, he

395
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: borrowed it all. Well, I thought he came for money.

396
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,919
Speaker 1: That was well, he had money at one point. He

397
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 1: borrowed oh no, but then he made a lot, right,

398
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 1: So think about this. I think he defaulted on a

399
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 1: three or four million dollar loan and then another one

400
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,920
Speaker 1: or two million dollar loan, and then he also borrowed

401
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: privately from other like wine collectors that he knew. But

402
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: even still, let's say he borrowed ten million dollars that

403
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 1: he defaulted, he may tens intens intens more millions thirty

404
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 1: four million dollars in one year just from two sales. Yeah,

405
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: and he currently is appealing his conviction UM on the

406
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 1: grounds that uh that when when he was arrested, he

407
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 1: was arrested on his front porch. Then they searched his

408
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 1: house and they said you can't do that. That That they

409
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: got the the search warrant afterward, and he said, well

410
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 1: you can't do that. There should I should have never

411
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 1: been searched. And it's looking like they're saying, now you

412
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 1: know what they had reasonable uh doubt. Uh said yeah exactly.

413
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 1: So I don't think the appeal is going to go anywhere.

414
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 1: But this is as recently as like this year. I

415
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 1: think he's still appealing. But he got ten years, right, yeah,

416
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: ten years man, Um, So he got caught and he

417
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 1: got caught red hand, red handed. It sounds like UM

418
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 1: and the people who were attached to him that helped

419
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 1: built up this market definitely suffered uh some dings to

420
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 1: their reputation. But are saying like, we had no idea,

421
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 1: we trusted this guy, we were duped too, and UM

422
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 1: to their to their merit acker, meryll Um offered like, uh,

423
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 1: money back guarantees on anything that was considered found to

424
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 1: be fake and and paid up on it after one auction. Well,

425
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: one of the guys Coke is suing is uh. I

426
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 1: can't remember his name, but he supposed supposedly. He's like,

427
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 1: I didn't know I was selling you fake wine, like

428
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 1: I got duped, and he's saying, no, you knew. So

429
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: they were trying to prove whether or not this guy

430
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 1: actually knew. And so that's that's another part of that

431
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: debate where how widespread is this, who knows what um?

432
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: And who's like how far do you go back before

433
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 1: you find the person who did it? Right, So we'll

434
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 1: talk about one other person who allegedly did it right

435
00:25:47,520 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 1: after this break. So, Chuck, there's another man, very famous

436
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: man in the wine world. His name is Hardy Hardy

437
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: roden Stock, but I don't believe that's his real name.

438
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 1: His real name is what mine heart, that's right, what

439
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 1: a name, that's his given name, But he goes by

440
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 1: Hardy roden Stock and has since the seventies and he

441
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 1: to be a truly great wine counterfeitter, not only do

442
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: you have to build up a reputation as rich and

443
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 1: um willing to crack bottles of ridiculously expensive, um historically

444
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 1: valuable wine at parties where there's wine critics and auctioneers

445
00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: and wine experts, um. But you also have to have

446
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 1: a certain love for wine. I think Rudy kay definitely

447
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: loved wine. Yes, they but they all have. But yeah,

448
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: and Hardy Rodenbach definitely does too. And apparently there's there's

449
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: a big question about whether he is one of the

450
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: better wine mixers on the planet. Yeah, because that's that's

451
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,239
Speaker 1: a real job, where like like someone will work at

452
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: a winery and they'll take a little bit of this

453
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: and a little bit of that, and then all of

454
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: a sudden you've got there. Yeah, they're they're they're blend.

455
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 1: Some blends are better than others. Apparently Rodenstock is a

456
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: master blender if he is in fact a counterfeiter. This

457
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: article on how stuff works make it makes it sound

458
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: like Bill Coke's hired FBI gun closed the book and

459
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: like it's done. But it's never been proven in a

460
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: court of law. That Rodenstock actually um was this counterfeiter

461
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: and he still denies the allegations. Well, the circumstantial evidence

462
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 1: is pretty pretty substantial. Yeah, I mean I think the

463
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: only reason is because he refuses to come to America

464
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: to go to court, you know. But there's no criminal

465
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: Prosecution's all civil as far as I understand. Yeah, I

466
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: think that's the case. So he was a former music

467
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: manager and um, he I think they're making him. There's

468
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: a book called The Billionaires Vinegar about this about the

469
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: Jefferson wines that they're making into a movie with McConaughey.

470
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: Of course, does he play Bill Coke or Hardy roden Stock.

471
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 1: I don't know who he's playing, or does he just

472
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: kind of like wander around days in the background he's

473
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 1: the wine maker man. Uh yeah, I'm not sure who

474
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: he's playing actually, But it was a big book and

475
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: it was about the famous Jefferson wines and basically the

476
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: deal is Thomas Jefferson, as we all know, was way

477
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: into wine, way into France. UM, a big francophile and

478
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: he had either bottles in his collection or he had

479
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: his own vintage as well. Um, Thomas Jefferson wines and

480
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: very famously, Hardens stock was rooted out allegedly. I guess

481
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: do we have to say that as faking these Jefferson bottles. Yeah? Um,

482
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: he would force you know, you're supposed to spit out

483
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: when you're drinking wine tasting. He would. He would I

484
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: don't know about force, but highly encourage his guests to swallow,

485
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: so they would be drunker by the time they got

486
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: to the real good stuff at the end, which is

487
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: and again, so it's unusual to force your guests to

488
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: drink rather than spit out the wine at a tasting party.

489
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: And then it's also unusual to bring out your best

490
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: stuff at the end because everybody knows your palette is

491
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: saturated and you can't really tell the difference anyway. Well,

492
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: if you've ever been on a wine tour and go

493
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: to like several wineries, you definitely at the last winery

494
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,239
Speaker 1: you're like, give me a case. Is great. Yeah. So

495
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: when he's throwing these parties in these tastings, again, he's invited,

496
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: and they're very smart to invite wine experts, wine critics,

497
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: wine journalists. It's an event. It is an event. And

498
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: again all these people think that this dude, it is

499
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: just this eccentric, extraordinarily rich dude who is literally opening

500
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: to drink and share with them. He's wonderful, these these

501
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: people who are peons compared to this man. He's such

502
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: a great man because he's opened a seventeen eighties seven

503
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: bottle of Thomas Jefferson's wine and he's given me a glass.

504
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: I've got to go right about it. I got to

505
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: talk about how great Hardy roden Stock is. So it's

506
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: very smart to have surrounded himself with the people he did. Yeah.

507
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: So his story was that he said, um, he claimed

508
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 1: that he found a batch of Jefferson bottles behind a

509
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: brick wall in a Paris Parisian basement that he still

510
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: hasn't revealed where this is a little suspicious. Uh. And

511
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: then if you already got all the wine out of there, yeah, exactly. Uh.

512
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: And then he and uh, he went and sold a

513
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: lot of these two people like Coke and Christopher Forbes

514
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: and other billionaires for um, hundreds of thousands of dollars

515
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 1: per bottle. And I think they were like about a

516
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty bottle. Yeah, it's a ton of money.

517
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: And um, they were fakes and it was all it

518
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: all came down to a little matter of punctuation, which

519
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: is hysterical to me that Thomas Jefferson bottles. Um. Well,

520
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: first of all, he kept really meticulous records because he

521
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: was so into wine. Jefferson. Yeah, so on the bottles,

522
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: chuck it said, and it was engraved t H period

523
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: capital J period. Right. Supposedly, Jefferson, when he wrote his initials,

524
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: it would be t H colon capital J period. So

525
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: that fatal flaw of the matter of punctuation is what

526
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: gave him away. Basically, Yeah, well there's a larger question too.

527
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: So the idea that Thomas Jefferson would have his bottles

528
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: engraved was based on a letter, a verified letter. Um.

529
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: It was an order that Jefferson placed for French wine

530
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: on behalf of himself and George Washington, Which makes these

531
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: bottles even more amazingly awesome because they think, well, these

532
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: came from an order that Jefferson placed, that we're also

533
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: in George Washington's shipment as well, and that they they

534
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: they needed to be separated out by initials. But if

535
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: you step back and you think they wouldn't go in

536
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,479
Speaker 1: and grave all the bottles, they just marked the crates

537
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: that the bottles came in. This create goes to George,

538
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: this crate goes to Jefferson because he was ordering it

539
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: by the case, not by the bottle. So the idea

540
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: that the bottles would be engraved is also dubious in

541
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: and of itself. But Monticello historians are like, number one,

542
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: he this is wrong the way that this is engraved,

543
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: that's not how he would have done it. And secondly,

544
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: there's no records in all of we have the records

545
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: for this era, and there's nothing in there about these

546
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: vintages being in Monicello or being ordered by Jefferson. And

547
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: then also, um, once Bill Coke put his FBI dude

548
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: on the on the case, it turns out that it's

549
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 1: likely that this this engraving was done by modern instruments. Yeah,

550
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: he hired a guy named an ex fed named Jim

551
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: McElroy or I'm sorry, Jim Elroy and Royal, I guess,

552
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: because so he hired this guy, paid him a lot

553
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: of money, I imagine, to try and do some digging

554
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: on this. And one of their first lines of defense

555
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: was there's something called uh cesium dash one seven, and

556
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: that is UH a radioactive isotope that exists because it's

557
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 1: a product of nuclear fission of uranium. So it didn't

558
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: exist until we started doing that, before we started launching

559
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: nuclear bomb explosion tests. Yeah, exactly. Uh, now it exists,

560
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: and you can actually test for this stuff, so if

561
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: you find you know it basically can date something back

562
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: to However, in the case of harden Stock, he was

563
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 1: smart enough at least to use wine older than so

564
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: that didn't really help him much. Yeah, and I wonder

565
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: if he just surely he is lucked out because I

566
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: wonder if that Caeson test was around when he did this,

567
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: because this he supposedly found him in eighty five and

568
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,479
Speaker 1: started selling him immediately. Yeah, who knows, maybe got lucky

569
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: or maybe he just was like, I need to use

570
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: some really old, nice wine, yeah, to at least try

571
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 1: and get away with it. So again there's like and

572
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: then there. One other part of the case against him

573
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 1: was that he had a tenant once at his family's

574
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 1: house who had an apartment near his. In the house

575
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: and in the basement, the tenant said that he saw

576
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 1: like basically tons of empty bottles and um stacks of

577
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 1: labels and all this stuff, which to the tenant meant, well,

578
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: this guy's forging wine. Right, that's a little more. That's

579
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 1: probably what I would think. I hope he doesn't go

580
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:51,760
Speaker 1: by my recycling every Wednesday here wine counterfeitter, it could be. Uh,

581
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: So there are a lot of there's nothing you can

582
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 1: do about these these old um, I mean, you can

583
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: have people inspect them and try and verify them, but

584
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: there's really nothing you can do as a like a

585
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,919
Speaker 1: full proof method. But really nice wineries now arguing there

586
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: are a lot of methods you can do now for

587
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: future generations of wine fraud. Yeah, for the vintage stuff

588
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: you're s o l Basically, you just have to really

589
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: trust where it's coming from. Probably hire an expert and

590
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: um maybe stay away from rodent stock if you're Bill Coke. Right,

591
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: that's right. But there Yeah, like you said, the modern

592
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: guys are using things like um R f I D tags,

593
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: um QR codes that you scan and it takes you

594
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 1: to a website or something. Microchips like you have in

595
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 1: your dog. Yeah, so you can track the actual bottle.

596
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: There's also like tamper proof um capsules, the that the

597
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,439
Speaker 1: wine is encased in the bottle's neck that when that's

598
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: open it changes color. If it's ever been opened and

599
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 1: some actually alert the internet or I guess back home

600
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: at head Court the Internet once it's been open. And

601
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: there's another one that's pretty cool. There's this company that

602
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: inserts a specific DNA marker into like the ink on

603
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 1: the label that can't be counterfeit, and that they can

604
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:17,879
Speaker 1: go back and later and be like, no, this is real.

605
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: At the very least, we know the labels real. And

606
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 1: rudy case case, he had a bunch of credit card

607
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 1: charges for glue and labels and ink, and he, I

608
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 1: mean he had a pretty nice trail of evidence behind him. Yeah,

609
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: I was not very smart with it. Well, I mean,

610
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 1: if his apartment was just a counterfeiting factor. And then

611
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: lastly checked the one of the pieces of evidence that

612
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: a lot of people point to when they say that

613
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:47,919
Speaker 1: um wine fraud is a big deal um is eBay. Yeah.

614
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 1: You can go on eBay and spend a hundred bucks

615
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: on a empty bottle that, if it weren't empty, would

616
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 1: go for a thousand or ten thousand or whatever. And

617
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 1: the idea behind it, of course, is that somebody's alling

618
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: it up and putting it back on the market as

619
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: a counterfeit. Why would someone sell that that reason to

620
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: make a hundred bucks on a ten dollar bottle of wine.

621
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,760
Speaker 1: Some people love money. I don't know. It just seems

622
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: like a lot of just people who buy that kind

623
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 1: of wine. I don't picture them going on eBay and

624
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: running auctions over It makes you wonder also if like

625
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 1: those are people who they're like, they're just working at

626
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: a restaurant and well, that's what it sounds like to me,

627
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: and take that home and put it on anybay. The

628
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: servant throws the uh you know, cleans up after the

629
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: dinner party. Yeah, that's what I figure what's going on?

630
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 1: And apparently a lot of restaurants now because of guys

631
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: like Rudy Kay and uh Hardy Roads Road and stock

632
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: now um smash vintage bottles once the wine has been

633
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: ordered and drunk with. Well with the shotgun in the

634
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: skeet shooting, I got one last thing. Supposedly there were

635
00:37:55,680 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: only five Magnums Fleur produced. Uh. Between two thousand five

636
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:08,359
Speaker 1: and two thousand seven, eighteen magnums of seven La Fleur

637
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: were sold at auction. That's so easy to How can

638
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: that happen? That's so easy to check when there's only

639
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: five of something. The argument is that either the guy

640
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: who works at La Fleur and did in seven and says, no,

641
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: there was only five magnums doesn't remember because the record

642
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 1: keeping in like Burgundy is terrible back in the day.

643
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: Um or that the there's just no will. There's so

644
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 1: much of a market for counterfeit wine, and there's not

645
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 1: enough pressure being put on the people who are actually

646
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: selling it or allowing it to happen, that it's just whatever.

647
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 1: And supposedly now that America has gotten more and more savvy,

648
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: this counterfeit market is moving over to China, so where

649
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: there's like a lot of wealth coming up and not

650
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: a lot of wine education, and people are just getting

651
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: taken for rides. Man, good stuff. Yeah, this is a

652
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 1: good one man, good pick. If you want to know

653
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: more about wine fraud, you can type those words in

654
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: the search bar how stu works dot com? And I

655
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 1: said the search bar, Chuck, what is it? Time for

656
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 1: Facebook questions? All right? Sometimes we pool questions from Facebook

657
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 1: to answer them. That's what we're doing now. This is

658
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 1: from Diane Martin. Diane F. Martin, uh cent, your podcasts

659
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,919
Speaker 1: are essentially what would be called literature reviews and research lingo.

660
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 1: How do you decide which references to include an exclude.

661
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: Use any kind of quality indicators to decide what you

662
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 1: will and will include, especially when they're deeply debated. This

663
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: is a good question. Um, we've talked about our research process.

664
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: I think we tried to use peer review journals and

665
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 1: what I mean, if we find something on the internet,

666
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: we try and double and triple check that information. I know,

667
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: a big giveaway. You always talk about as if it's

668
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: the same exa thing printed a bunch. That's usually a

669
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: sign that it could be bogus, like Rodney danger Field

670
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 1: being in the Scout in the movie The Scout, but

671
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 1: it still bears mentioning. You just have to mention it

672
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,839
Speaker 1: with the caveat you don't find it credible, but it's

673
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: out there because it doesn't. It exists in some form

674
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: of fashion. Uh, scientific journals, medical journals, I mean, pure

675
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: of you. It's just a great way to go if

676
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: you can get your hands on it. I remember this

677
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 1: great article called like why is Science behind a Paywall?

678
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: About the basically the cart the science publishing cartel. But

679
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 1: if you can't get your hands on on perio of stuff,

680
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 1: that's the best stuff to work with. Agreed, go ahead.

681
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: Another question. Yeah, Chuck for me, this is from Shane Elliott.

682
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: I knew I think you meant no. This question will

683
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,399
Speaker 1: find a special place in Chuck's heart. What are your

684
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: favorite types and kinds of beers? And why do you

685
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 1: brew your own beer? And so body he else said

686
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: recently on Twitter that you said in the beer episode

687
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 1: that you're gonna get into homebrewing. Did you ever? So

688
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: that's a two part question for you, Chuck from Twitter

689
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: and Facebook. Well, you're a beer guy too. I like,

690
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 1: I do not brew my beer, but on the record,

691
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: is really liking I p a s. I know there's

692
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: a backlash going on now because there's so many of

693
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: them and people are like, there's other kinds of beers

694
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: in the world. I PAS tastes like soap I love.

695
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 1: I love anything that's super hoppy. Yeah, I do. I

696
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 1: just that's what I like. Our friend Dave dropped by

697
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: yeah Sweetwater, sweetwater and brought us some hot hash. I

698
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: haven't tried it yet, have you, no, but his all

699
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 1: that stuff is good. Sweetwater does a great job. And

700
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 1: we've always both kind of agreed that, uh, Sierra Nevada

701
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: Palele is one of the great all time, but there's

702
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: so many great ones. Bells too hearted, I love oh man,

703
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 1: that might be the best ever. Yeah, and that plenty

704
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: of the elder we got sent some of that. That

705
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 1: was delicious. Um Oh here in Athens, Georgia, Creature comforts tropically,

706
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: I've not had that one delicious um orfe Is Brewing

707
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: is here in Atlanta, and they make a sour that

708
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: I tried that was really really good. I'm not into

709
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: the sours. Have you tried it sours? Yeah? Yeah, I

710
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 1: loved it. I don't get it weird that I was like,

711
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 1: this is kind of good. Yeah. It was weird in

712
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: a good way, because sometimes weird can just be novel

713
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: and you're like, Okay, I tried that, it's done. This

714
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: is I mean, I like it. Yeah. I don't like

715
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: wheat beers, Belgian whites. Not a fan. All right, there's

716
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 1: your answer, fish Bowl. Now I'm thirsty, Jackson Blig. Other

717
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: than Atlanta, what are your top five favorite cities each? Geez,

718
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: New York, San Francisco, Seattle? Do they have to be

719
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,839
Speaker 1: American cities? Serious? Uh? In that case, then I'll throw

720
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:05,240
Speaker 1: in Paris and uh London, look at me, Well, fancy,

721
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: I know. Uh let's see. I love Hiroshima, Japan is

722
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: a really neat city, so it's Kyoto. I'm gonna make

723
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 1: those tied for one though. Of course. New York, Um,

724
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: let's see you where I like d see a lot too. Yeah,

725
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: that's a great town. Um, Rome, Italy is surprisingly neat. Surprisingly,

726
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 1: what are you getting? I mean it's a major cities, yeah,

727
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: and it's packed with people, so you would think like

728
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 1: it's a city, but it also has I mean like

729
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: you're just walking along the street and all of a

730
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 1: sudden you're walking next to like a three thousand year

731
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 1: old wall that's not even part of a museum. You

732
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 1: just built up around it. Did There'd be like a

733
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: fountain on a corner, like somebody's peeing in that's a

734
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 1: thousand years old. It's it's a very neat city in

735
00:43:55,719 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: that regard. Um, I like, uh where else? Um, that's

736
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 1: all I can come up with right now. Oh you

737
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 1: know what, I don't have to go all fancy pants

738
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 1: like Charleston, South Carolina one of my favorite, but it's

739
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: a great place for food. Savannah, Yeah, I like Charlestoniana. Yeah. Yeah,

740
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 1: they're similar to me. Yeah, Charleston is a little more

741
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:26,359
Speaker 1: refined but also a little more modern. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

742
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: I don't. It's not fancy pants to like cities overseas, No,

743
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: I know. But when it's once his Paris, you're like, yeah,

744
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,399
Speaker 1: but Paris is awesome. It is. It's a great time

745
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: in London. When's the last time you're in London, like

746
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,240
Speaker 1: twenty years ago? Okay, you should go back because London

747
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: is like a brand new city. There's something to do

748
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: at all times. Now they have cabs, which is apparently

749
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: like the big thing that changed there. Um, and it's

750
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: just an awesome little town, beautiful. Well maybe we can

751
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 1: go there on a tour. Yes. Uh, well that's your

752
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: turn with a question. Uh, this is from Gus M. Parker.

753
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: Why did Josh grow his hair? Gus, there's a simple

754
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 1: answer that that's a good question because I can't because

755
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: I realized that I have hair, and I'm going to

756
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 1: live it up while I got it. I'm gonna go

757
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 1: with Gary Rickleman, what is the best flavor of pop tart? Hint?

758
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: There was only one correct answer. That's not true, Gary.

759
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,919
Speaker 1: I think what the answer you're looking for is brown

760
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: sugar and cinnamon. It's a good one. There's nothing wrong

761
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 1: with blueberry or strawberry. Strawberries really good as frosted straws

762
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,359
Speaker 1: as long as its frosted. That's the key. Well, here's

763
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,919
Speaker 1: another key, And here's a tip for you that don't

764
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: mind clogging your arteries. Pop it out of the toaster.

765
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 1: I know you don't want to get a stick of

766
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 1: butter and rub it on the back the dry side

767
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: and then around the edges of the other side and

768
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 1: just thank me later. I have not tried that. And

769
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 1: I actually heard that before from Jessica Simpson when she

770
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 1: was pregnant. Oh really, apparently is went berserk on the

771
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,839
Speaker 1: buttered pop tarts. I've never heard of that. You've got

772
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 1: time for one more? Yeah, we got time for a

773
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 1: couple of mornings. This uh an unusual one from Michael

774
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:13,399
Speaker 1: Snively or Snoopiley, one of the two, probably Snively. If

775
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: the Bryant and Clark were units of measure, what would

776
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 1: they measure? Oh? Man, mine would probably Oh I know

777
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: what mine would be is some uh sweat level, like

778
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 1: units of sweat per square inch or something. That's a

779
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:34,359
Speaker 1: good one. Mine would measure the distance between any one

780
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: place and awesome, Oh wow, whoa how is that? That's good,

781
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: thank you, all right. I got one more, Chelsea Hamilton.

782
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 1: What's the most rewarding thing that Stuff you Should Know

783
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,319
Speaker 1: has brought to you or allowed you to do. We've

784
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 1: done a lot of really neat things that were very

785
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,360
Speaker 1: thankful for. But I'm gonna just say the live shows

786
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 1: because they're so much fun, fun, and it's fun to

787
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:56,879
Speaker 1: go to cities I've never been to, and it's fun

788
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: to meet people and get out of this little room. Uh,

789
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: very rewarding and very fun. I'm going with Chuck's answers. Welcome,

790
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 1: all right. Uh, well, thanks everybody for those Facebook questions. UM,

791
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: if you ever want to get in touch with us

792
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 1: on Facebook, you can go to Facebook dot com slash

793
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know. You can also tweet to us

794
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,320
Speaker 1: at s y s K podcast let's our handle. You

795
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 1: can send us a good old fashioned email to stuff

796
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 1: Podcast at house touff works dot com, and as always,

797
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 1: join us at our home on the web. Stuff you

798
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 1: Should Know dot com For more on this and thousands

799
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 1: of other topics, is a house Stuff Works dot com