1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how stupp 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And today we were talking about 4 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: behind rear ends the Donka donks. Yeah that's right. Yeah, 5 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: this was a listener suggested topic and what a fantastic 6 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: topic it is, because Caroline, I feel like we are 7 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: pop culturally living in a very butastic era. I I 8 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 1: think we are too. Um, you know, we we passed 9 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: through the era of Heroin, chic Allah, Kate Moss, and 10 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: now we're in the era of Kim Kardashian for instance. Um, 11 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of like videos out there on 12 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: how to do your exercises to get your big butt 13 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: and things like that, and so you know, well, I 14 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: think body acceptance of any kind is wonderful. We really 15 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: should look at why how we ended up in this 16 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: era of but tastic nous and where all of this 17 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: butt worship came from. Yeah, we're really We're just really 18 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: in two butts. Um. Side note, you can follow us 19 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 1: on Instagram, by the way, at stuff Mom Never Told You. 20 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: And I'm saying that because speaking of Instagram, some listeners 21 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 1: might also follow the so called but selfie Queen jen Selter. 22 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: This woman has made a social media empire for herself 23 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: solely based on but selfies, Yeah, which are called belfies. 24 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: In case you were wondering, that is that is the 25 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,559 Speaker 1: point that we were at in terms of our but obsession. 26 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: So why don't we first start off with some but science? 27 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: That's right? Why do we have but what is a butt? 28 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: What is a butt? Anyway? Well, ladies and gentlemen, it's 29 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: not just a good squishy place to grab onto. It 30 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: happens to be a very important muscle that helps stabilize 31 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: the hip and help us walk. Now, apes, for instance, 32 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: have a really tenny, tiny, puny gluteus maximus that helps 33 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: them climb trees, but doesn't really help them stand for 34 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: very long. And so I'm wondering if I have more 35 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 1: of an ape butt because I really don't like standing. 36 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: Good be Caroline Um. So humans evolved a thicker, more 37 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: powerful gluteus maximus that attaches higher on our hip bones, 38 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: that offers more leverage and keeps us stable while walking. 39 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: And so a question that a lot of evolutionary researchers 40 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: have seriously pondered is which came first walking or our butts. 41 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: Well funny you should ask Kristen. Physical anthropologist Thomas Grinder 42 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: thinks that the butt came second. So based on studies 43 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: of how our muscles change and grow. Oh, Grinder thinks 44 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: that the butt came after the whole walking and standing 45 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: things because our rear ends do make it too hard 46 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: for apes to walk. We along with our big butts, 47 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: we have also a shorter iski um I think it's pronounced. 48 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: It's the part of like our rear ends that we 49 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: sit on. And so that whole shorter isk um bigger 50 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: butt thing would make it too hard for apes to 51 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: get around. So yeah, so we have butts to allow 52 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: us to walk, and we cannot lie. We can, we 53 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: cannot lie. I know it's going to be very hard 54 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: to resist making a horrible number of sir, mix a 55 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: lot puns throughout this podcast, But I promise you this, listeners, 56 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: I will try my best not to I can't make 57 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: the same promise. But one, but one thing that we 58 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: have to also talk about regarding butts is a question 59 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: of hair. This was one another evolutionary question that caught 60 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: my eye while we're searching for this episode, which is 61 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: why do we still have hair between our butt cheeks, 62 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: because it seems like, you know, not not a lot 63 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: of people are super jazzed on it. It's not like, oh, yeah, 64 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: I have a super hairy but how fantastic. Um so, 65 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: why didn't we, in our process of shedding our fur, 66 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 1: also shed that, let's just say it butt crack for 67 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: The answer is essentially because it didn't exert enough selective 68 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: pressure for humans to have to evolve to deal with it. So, 69 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: putting that in plane speak, we were still able to 70 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: have sex and reproduce with our but crack hair, which 71 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: I really don't like saying I can tell, I can 72 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: tell no. But basically, like you know, you can fake hairlessness, 73 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: and so you know, if your partner prefers to reproduce 74 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: with someone who is hairless, you can fake that, and 75 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: you're harry jeans will sneak right through into your children. 76 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: That sounds weird, but um it's It's kind of like 77 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: when we talked about men having nipples. It's kind of 78 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: the same thing. There was no reason to evolutionarily select 79 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 1: against it. Yeah, they're like, oh, yeah, that's fine. Just 80 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: keep your nipples and keep the hair in between your 81 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: butt cheeks. Keep that crack warm. You're gonna have sex anyway, 82 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: that's right. So evolution so complex and yet so simple. Um. 83 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: But then when we get into women and butts, because 84 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: that will be the focus of this episode, is particularly 85 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: the female butt because, in case you haven't noticed, women 86 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: tend to have larger, rounder, more fantastically but tacular, but 87 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: to the point that it's actually a female secondary sex straight. 88 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 1: So why would women have bigger butts? It's all hormones, Baby, 89 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: Estrogen encourages fat storage in our rear ends testosterone meanwhile 90 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: discourages fat story ridge there. Yeah, but why Caroline, why 91 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: would those hormones even do that? Evolutionary psychologists think that. 92 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: Yet again, evolution so complex and yet so simple. They 93 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: think that our lady butts perhaps evolved to signal youth 94 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: and fertility, which then leads to sex propagation of the species. Right, Like, Hey, 95 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: look at my butt. I can sustain a pregnancy. Yeah, 96 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: I'm very fertile. Look how big my pelvis must be 97 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: through which I will pass a human child. I have 98 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: a very healthy butt. So you want to take me 99 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 1: to dinner or what? That's right, cave man, take me 100 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: to dinner. Um, But in ninetive, there was a theory 101 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: that the female buttocks developed to be so large as 102 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: it is in order to prevent copulation from behind. Yeah. 103 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: By creating the large butt of According to this theory, 104 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: which has been called into question, it promoted face to 105 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: face sex just like the missionaries. Yeah. And attached to 106 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: this theory is that breasts meanwhile developed, you know, obviously, 107 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: female breasts much larger than mail breath developed as a 108 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: sort of front butt, essentially to again promote face to 109 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: face sex, to transfer the butt attraction from our backsides 110 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: to our front sides. Which side note this leads to 111 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: and I'm not trying to be crassier listeners, This leads 112 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: to a question often raised especially in heterosexual dating schema, 113 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: are you a breast guy or a butt guy? All 114 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: goes back to evolution. But like I said, that theory 115 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: has been called into question, and in fact, there is 116 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: a more recent theory that says that breasts and butts, 117 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: which are essentially you know, these these fat storage areas 118 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: on our bodies really developed to store fat during periods 119 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: of lactation and or food shortage. In the super hot 120 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: and dry climate east of the African Rift Valley, where 121 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: the earliest humans evolved. Interesting, there's also if if we're 122 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: talking about more modern theories, there's also a study in 123 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: the Journal of Obesity that associated bigger butts and thighs 124 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: with better health. Now, a lot of people, a lot 125 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: of researchers have questioned the validity of this, but these 126 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: particular researchers say that lower body fat has a striking 127 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: protective role in terms of having fewer heart attacks and 128 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: less instances of diabetes. They argue that the fat in 129 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 1: your butt and in your thighs is more stable than 130 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 1: belly fat, uh, therefore causing fewer fatty contents to circulate 131 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: throughout the body. So and then that would jive with 132 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: the evolutionary psychology thinking that women have bigger butts as 133 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 1: a way to signal our health and fertility and readiness 134 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: to make a baby with a with a special someone, 135 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 1: special someone. Indeed, and speaking of special someone's, we've got 136 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: to talk about the idea that straight guys when they 137 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 1: look at women, are either a boobman or a buttman. 138 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: And there have been studies on this. I was rather 139 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: excited to find there's a two thousand study titled perception 140 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: of female buttocks in breast size in profile. And this 141 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: was an interesting one because it included not only men 142 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: but also women and essentially just showed them profiles of 143 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 1: women's bodies and sort of played around with the size 144 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: of breasts and buttocks, and they found that the buttocks 145 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: size had no effect on attractiveness ratings. It was only 146 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: when they manipulated breast size that they saw relationship to 147 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: attractiveness ratings. Right. Um, some they did say, like towards 148 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: the end of the end of the study that the 149 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: fact that these study results were slightly different from other 150 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: like silhouettes studies were that apparently some of the silhouettes 151 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: they showed people were like so different from the other 152 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: silhouettes that they think it is possible that people just 153 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: picked the silhouette that they considered to be quote unquote 154 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: more normal or you know, like something that's not quite 155 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: as exaggerated, not necessarily that people prefer a smaller bus 156 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: or a bigger bus, etcetera. Well, and in terms of 157 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: real world application of that, it's not like we're walking around, 158 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: you know, like men just see the like silhouettes just 159 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: walking down the sidewalks. I do wonder it's like when 160 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: you see methodologies like that, you wonder how much credence 161 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: you can really give to them. Um. So there was 162 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: another study in two thousand twelve in the Archives of 163 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: Sex Behavior that compared men's reported but or breast preference 164 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: with their eye gaze. So this this was a little 165 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 1: bit different methodology, and they found that, guess what, men 166 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: tended to be more into butts, not only self reporting, 167 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: but also when they did the eye gazing. So they 168 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: use eye tracking technology um on the male participants and 169 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: then showed them, you know, a lovely a lovely lady, 170 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: and tracked where their eyes went either to the butt 171 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 1: or the breasts, and with a guy said he was 172 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 1: a butt guy. He looked at the butt. Interesting, Well 173 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: I'm a butt woman. Okay. Yeah, this is something that 174 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: is not addressed in research at all. I think just 175 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: because we tend to associate the butt obsession more with 176 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: straight guys. But I specifically remember, for some reason as 177 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: a child, watching say, by the Bell Kelly and Kelly A. 178 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: Palaski commenting on the key noess of Zack Morris's but 179 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: like and then the audience laugh and I'm like, oh 180 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: that's funny. What does that mean? So so you're you're 181 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: a butt woman. I am a but woman. And and 182 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: and it's I don't just require like a bubbly baseball player, 183 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: but to grab onto like I like butts of all 184 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: sizes on guys. Oh you're you're kind of a butt anthropologist. Yeah, 185 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: I'm going through the forest in my khakis with my 186 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: little explorer hat, just like poking poking people's butt these 187 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: a little poking stick. Yeah. There's also the fact too 188 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: that men's rears are eroticized in gay context obviously, right, 189 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: I mean in the same way that people talk about, Oh, 190 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: a woman's butt is close to her sexual organs, so 191 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: it is taboo. I mean, if you're like Victorian or whatever. Um, 192 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 1: and it's the same. It's the same kind of discussion 193 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: that goes on around gayman. But unfortunately, there has not 194 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: been research, at least that I found on mail to 195 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: mail but attraction. So if there are any researchers listening, 196 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: I would like a study on that. So we've covered 197 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: now some of the evolution, the science, the psychology of 198 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: but attraction. But now we have to get into the 199 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: cultural history of our fascination and fetishization of large butts 200 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: in particular, and warning it is kind of horrifying, So 201 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: brace yourself for that, and we'll get into that when 202 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: we come right back from a quick break. So in 203 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 1: our cultural history of the buttocks, we're really going to 204 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,839 Speaker 1: focus in on the nineteenth century because that is when 205 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: this fetishization of large butts in particular really picks up. 206 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: But first we just want to provide a brief timeline 207 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: of our collective interest in women's rear ends right, and 208 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: women's shape in general. If you're talking about the Venus 209 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 1: of Vinendorf uh from twenty four thousand BC. This is 210 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: a figure you've probably seen in textbooks, history, textbooks or whatever. 211 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: You know. She's a she's a carved figuring whose features 212 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: are incredibly exaggerated, but the focus is her rather large 213 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: buttocks and thighs. She symbolizes fertility, all of that good stuff. Yeah, 214 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: and she's one of the oldest known pieces of artwork. 215 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: So that's why you hear Venus of Villendorff brought up 216 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: all the time. So, jumping way way forward in time 217 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: into the Victorian era, which is when this kind of 218 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: reinfascination really takes a fascinating, splash, horrifying turn, we have 219 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: Havelock Ellis who was a physician, sexual psychologist and a 220 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: eu genesist who in his series of books The Studies 221 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: on the Psychology of Sex, describes the butt, the female 222 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: butt as highly fed, wishized, and fetishized. It was indeed 223 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: also in the sex lives of Victorian era Britain's that's right. 224 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: Spanking was a hugely popular erotic act in Victorian Great 225 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: Britain and it was a major feature of pornography around 226 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: this time. For instance, there was the erotica of the 227 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: era called lady bum Ticklers revels Lady bum Ticklers revels um. 228 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: It was described as popularly consumed spanking bass to Victorian erotica, Wow, 229 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: talk about spanking bass. So it was just like the 230 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: fifty Shades of gray Um. Well, no, of course we 231 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: have to get into Freud, because no discussion of history 232 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: and sexuality and psychology is completely without bringing up Freud. 233 00:15:55,640 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: He talks about the anal phase that, in his line, 234 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: was the root of gay sexual orientation. He said that 235 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: successful adults have to pass through three phases oral, anal, 236 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: and genital, and he said that if you were anal 237 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: retentive and you were stuck in that phase, that you 238 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: were not only controlling and uptight, but that you had 239 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: a lot of unresolved issues around your butt and hence 240 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: he said, oh, and then you would also be gay 241 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: because of that. So that's where that comes from. So 242 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: of course, also that paints being gay as some kind 243 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: of disorder, right, good old Freud, Good old Freud. So 244 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: we'll we'll leave him in the anal phase behind and 245 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: jump forward to more recent history, because from the nineteen 246 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: seventies on this is when we really start to see 247 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: the female behind being celebrated so much and obsessed over 248 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: so much in pop culture. So in the seventies you 249 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: have a guy named Ego Patangi who developed one of 250 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: the first widely used but lift procedures. It's worth noting 251 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: he was Brazilian, okay, um, yeah, because you know Brazilian 252 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: women also known for having larger rear ends, and so 253 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 1: that's when we start going under the knife in order 254 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: to get a Brazilian like rear end. It's right, and 255 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: people do still use elements of that early butt lift procedure. 256 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, but let's still happen. I should have pulled 257 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: up statistics on how many people get butt lifts each year. 258 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: I I read in one of these sources that there 259 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: were only only uh six hundred performed in the US 260 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: in two thousand five. All Right, I don't know what 261 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: that how that compares to any other year or any 262 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: other country however, but if we're still in the nineteen seventies, 263 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: we can't leave out one of my favorite karaoke songs, 264 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: which is Queen's Fat Bottom Girls, which comes out in 265 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: nineteen and then leap forward, that's when Sir Mix a 266 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: Lot comes out with Baby Got Back. And we could 267 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: actually spend an entire podcast digging into the lyrics of 268 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: Baby Got Back. Well, yeah, because in the song in 269 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: the beginning, it's two white valley girls talking about a 270 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: black woman's rear end. Yeah, and and in not so 271 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: nice terms, which is going to tie completely into uh, 272 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: what we're about to talk about from the Victorian era. So, 273 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: but going back to the nineties, in the late nineties, 274 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: you see more women seeking but implants and this is 275 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: termed the j Low effect. And we'll get back to 276 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: Jennifer Lopez later on in the show, because she was 277 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: actually very important in terms of sort of bringing our 278 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: rear end obsession into mainstream pop culture because she was 279 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: this breakout Latina star, which was, as we'll get into, 280 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: more significant because she was an African American. She was 281 00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: not white. She was sort of in middling a Latina. Yeah, 282 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 1: and it's interesting to watch, like as culture shifts and 283 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: changes and as body types come in and out of vogue, 284 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: which is so ridiculous because it's bodies like whatever. Because 285 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,719 Speaker 1: this one source that we were looking at talks about 286 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 1: someone like Janet Jackson who maybe earlier in her career, 287 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: you know, she had this rear end. She talked about 288 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: how her brother Michael teased her for it, and you 289 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 1: know it was kind of like her butts big and weird. 290 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: But as you move forward in time and you have 291 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: things like the breakout of Latin pop music in our culture, 292 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:39,959 Speaker 1: people like j Lo who has an unapologetically awesome curvy figure, 293 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: then suddenly it's okay for Janet Jackson to sort of 294 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 1: trade on her rear end. And so then in two 295 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: thousand one you have Destiny's Child coming out with their 296 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 1: hit Bootylicious, And from there we get back into our 297 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: episode long ago on Beyonce because her body has talked 298 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: about endlessly. In one feature of her body that is 299 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: paid a lot of close attention to is her but right, 300 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 1: And then yeah, that catches us up to people like 301 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: Kim Kardashian, who I mean, cud all, that's like that. 302 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: You know, I don't not poor Kim because you know, 303 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: I'm sure she's doing fine and she's totally happy with 304 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 1: the attention her but gets. But like cheez, you see 305 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 1: tabloid pictures of like, look at what she used to 306 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,719 Speaker 1: look like. She had a quote unquote normal butt and 307 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 1: now look at it. Yeah, but if you look at 308 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: it's kind of like jen selter the the Instagram but 309 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: selfie queen. If you look at Kim Kardashian's Instagram or 310 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: her selfies, she I think she's very proud of her. 311 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: But she's building a lot of her career I think 312 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: from her. But her butt is a lovely foundation. So 313 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: now we're going to get into a not so lovely 314 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 1: foundation of our interests or cultural interest and attraction to 315 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: large butts in particular. And so we have to talk 316 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: out a person who deserves far more attention. In our history, 317 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: our name was Sarkee Bartman, but better known as Hot 318 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: and taught Venus. So during the age of European exploration, 319 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: it's interesting that this episode is coming out so soon 320 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 1: after we did our series on women and Exploration, because 321 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: this is sort of the not so pleasant back end 322 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: of all of the exploration going on, and exploration particularly 323 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: into Africa, and what we're termed excessive buttocks were used 324 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 1: to categorize indigenous people, particularly in Africa, as primitive, which 325 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: was then used to justify their enslavement and or forced 326 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: subjugation via colonialism. And it was so much this focus 327 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: on their behind right, and and judging their bodies as 328 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: ugly as other instead of the beautiful, slim, slender europe 329 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: And body shape which was considered beautiful and accepted and normal. 330 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: Importantly that that did it did justify the other ing 331 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 1: of the peoples of Africa. And why the attention on 332 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 1: the buttocks, Like you mentioned earlier in the podcast Caroline, 333 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: during the Victorian era, there was so much obsession with 334 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: the butt as taboo because it is so close to 335 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: our genitals, and so there was this highly racist idea 336 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: that these so called excessive buttocks of indigenous African people 337 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: were really signs not only of them being primitive, but 338 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: also of having exaggerated sexuality right, and so in England 339 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: during this time. Remember this is like we talked about 340 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: in our Explore episodes. This is kind of the golden 341 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: age of exploration when men and some women are setting 342 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: out to learn about the world around them, but they're 343 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: not always looking through very clear lenses at the people 344 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: who live in the places they're visiting. So England is 345 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: in flux during this time between a period of looking 346 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: at people different people, different cultures as the noble Savages, 347 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: to looking at it through a lens of ethnology, or 348 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,199 Speaker 1: more commonly the branch of anthropology that examines differences between 349 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: groups of people. And this also ties into the part 350 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:26,239 Speaker 1: in our Explorer series discussing how as exploration is going on, 351 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: this is when scientific fields are really starting to be professionalized. 352 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: There's a big focus on that, and so within that 353 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:37,679 Speaker 1: you have this focus on ethnology, which really starts to 354 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:42,120 Speaker 1: become a racialized form of science, using what they thought 355 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: of as science at the time to prove that people 356 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 1: with different skin colors are inferior in X y Z 357 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: kind of ways. And so this brings us to Sarki Bartman, 358 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 1: known as HoTT and taught Venus and hottent taught is 359 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:01,880 Speaker 1: I don't even like saying it on the podcast, because 360 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 1: it's actually a derogatory term. Um. The word HoTT and 361 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: tot was derived from the clicking sound of the Coison dialect, 362 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 1: and the Coison are an ethnic group from the Cape 363 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: of South Africa, and so when these Dutch men came 364 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: in and they heard this dialect, they assumed that they 365 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: were just speaking nonsense because again like very limited and 366 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: not so clear lens through which they're seeing these people, 367 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: and so they refer to them as the HoTT and 368 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: tot and one of them captured and enslaved this woman, 369 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: Sarky Bartman, and then ended up taking her to London 370 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: to put her on display, because this is also the 371 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: era of freak shows in London, and so he's like, oh, well, 372 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: I've got an idea. We're gonna take this HoTT and 373 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: toot venus, which is a derogatory combination of HoTT and 374 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: tot and also the venous aspect because her rear was 375 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: so large, her butt was so quote unquote excessive, and 376 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: thus leading into the idea that that excessive buttocks signaled 377 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: her exaggerated sexuality, which is where the venus part comes in, right, 378 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: and author Rachel Holmes wrote African Queen The Real Life 379 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,880 Speaker 1: of the Hot and Tot Venus and talks about what 380 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 1: happened to Sarky when she was on display in front 381 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: of people when they took her to London, and she 382 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: was put on display in order to do suggestive quote 383 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 1: unquote native dancing and play African instruments. If that's not 384 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 1: bad enough, she was forced to wear a bedazzled cod 385 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: piece that was meant to imply to the audience gaping 386 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: at her that she had elongated labia. And this is 387 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 1: what is known as the quote unquote Hot and Tot apron, 388 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: which is just mind blowing, yeah, because there was this 389 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 1: idea that, if you know, someone with such a large 390 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: butt must also have such a large volva, and people 391 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 1: were oddly obsessed with that image. And so you you 392 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: saw her during this time, you saw her a lot 393 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 1: lampooned in cartoons of the day, and she even appeared 394 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: on the Five of Clubs on a deck of playing 395 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 1: cards in eighteen eleven. And in Holmes's book, she sort 396 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: of tries to paint Sarky as having some shread of 397 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: agency and this whole thing, even though it's I think 398 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 1: Holmes is taking a little bit of literary license with that, 399 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: because she claims that Holmes was complicit in going on exhibit. 400 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 1: And the one though she read of agency she did 401 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: clearly have was that she refused, even though she was 402 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: asked many times, she refused to ever reveal her volva right, yes, 403 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: and well until after her death. And obviously she did 404 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: not consent to that. But she died penniless at twenty 405 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: six and Napoleon surgeon general and the famed anatomist George 406 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 1: Cuvier dissected her. He put her body parts on display 407 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: at the French Museum of Natural History. This includes her brain, 408 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 1: and this includes her lady a, and this includes her 409 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: skeleton and a cast of her rear end. And at 410 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,640 Speaker 1: the time this was heralded as you know, a great 411 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: scientific undertaking, because oh finally we can you know, under 412 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: the guise of ethnology and anatomy, these these emerging fields 413 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 1: at the time, Oh well, we can take this specimen, 414 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: as she was considered not a person, just a specimen 415 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: and really find out how her brain and body and 416 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: labia compared to that of white people, and so we 417 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: can then draw racist conclusions from that. And this was 418 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: I think Janelle Hobson, who has written extensively on Sarki 419 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: Bartman wrote his thesis, which compared Bartman's genitalia to those 420 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,360 Speaker 1: of Ringatangs, formed the basis for much of the nineteenth 421 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: century scientific racism, which later evolved into eugenics. Right, So 422 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:23,400 Speaker 1: it's it's mind blowing a that this was even happening, 423 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: but that this important figure in history has been almost lost. Yeah. Well, 424 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 1: what's even crazier about this scenario is that Nelson Mandela 425 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: demanded that her remains be returned to South Africa, and 426 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: it was not until two thousand two that France finally agreed, right, 427 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: because in the seventies, the French Museum of Natural History 428 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: was finally like, okay, we won't put her parts on 429 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: display for the general public, but we're going to keep them. Nonetheless, 430 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 1: and when they were going back and forth with the 431 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: South African government, France was saying, well, we don't want 432 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: to give her back because then if we give that back, 433 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: then we're going to have to give so many other things. 434 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: But it's a person. She was a person, Yeah, I 435 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: mean that. And it apparently took until two thousand two 436 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: for Europe to recognize that. And so what scholar Janelle 437 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: Hobson has done in studying Sarki Bartman is looking at 438 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 1: how hot and taught Venus sort of set the stage 439 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: for the lingering fetishization of particularly African American women's butts, 440 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: right because Uh, butts were already fetishized, like we talked 441 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: about and uh they were totally taboo, and that was 442 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,239 Speaker 1: just among Europeans. And then you add the element of 443 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: this woman from Africa that they bring over and literally 444 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: put on display, and suddenly there is this fear, this 445 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:05,479 Speaker 1: very like gender based, race based fear of someone else's 446 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: sexuality as other and dangerous. Yeah, I mean it ties 447 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: into so many different problematic issues because one thing about 448 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: this is that her large buttocks sarkeys were pathologized as 449 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: something called state apesia. So essentially it was this made 450 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: up condition that a lot of European doctors said, oh, 451 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: these African women all suffer from state apesia because they 452 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: have quote excessive buttocks. And she was exhibited as quote 453 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: the most correct and perfect specimen of her race, thus 454 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: emphasizing the primitive, grotesque, and hyper sexual nature of the 455 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: African people's which leads to so many harmful stereotypes that 456 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: still exist today, right, and and the fact that then 457 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: that influences how Victorian Europeans saw black men, African men, 458 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: as they were just being associated with the wild and 459 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: other nous of black women's bodies. Yeah, And so Hobson 460 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: talks about how Bartmann being a woman made a huge 461 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: difference in the Victorian context because this is also the 462 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: time when women, by virtue of being women, were considered 463 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: the foundation of a group's morality. This is when you 464 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: have the era of you know, the cult of domesticity, 465 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: where women are considered, you know, the ones who essentially 466 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: reign in men's immorality. And so if you have such 467 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: a lascivious woman, as demonstrated by her quote unquote excessive 468 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: buttocks and her statopesia, and then you have men who 469 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: are attracted to that, well how horrifying, right, Well, yeah, exactly, 470 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: And and it was horrifying for them to the point 471 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: that white women, if we're looking just at European women, 472 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: were considered or associated with prostitution if they themselves had 473 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: large fear ends. Yeah, yeah, I mean that that is 474 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: how sexualized the butt had become, and there were fears 475 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: of white men being attracted to large butts as well. 476 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: There was even a French vaudeville play called the Hottentot 477 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: Venus or Hatred of French Women, in which an aristocrat 478 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: woman must save her cousin from a savage hotton dot. 479 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: Oh goodness. Yeah, and so there's all this fear around 480 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: large fear ends, and what that means, and how sexual 481 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: and and devan it is. And yet in the eighteen 482 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: seventies Victorian women start wearing bustles. Yeah, this was something. 483 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: And if there are any costume or fashion historians listening, 484 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: please right in to let me know if you have 485 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: any insight on this, because I wasn't able to. There's 486 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: not a lot of focus on the history of the bustle, 487 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: as ventially the crinoline style, where you have to think 488 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: of like the hoop skirts, the giant hoop skirts fell 489 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: out of style, and so they start wearing these posterior, 490 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: exaggerating bustles. And while I couldn't find any fashion historian 491 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: who put the two together, all almost all of the 492 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: historians looking at Sarky Bartman put the two together saying that, huh, 493 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: it might not necessarily be because of her. Obviously they 494 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: would not be directly emulating her. But clearly there was 495 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: some kind of appropriation of that big behind happening within 496 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: this more upper class, white, luxurious context. It's funny that 497 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: you should say appropriation, Kristen, because that is a word 498 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: that comes up a lot when you talk about people 499 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: like Jen Selter, the but selfie Queen, the fact that 500 00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: she has become so famous for essentially explaying for being 501 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 1: a white woman displaying a feature that people associate with 502 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 1: black women. And don't get us wrong, We're not trying 503 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: to say that Gen Selter appropriated a butt. You know, 504 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: there are plenty of white women and women of all 505 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: sorts of ethnicities that naturally have large butts. It's simply 506 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: when we look at this fetishization of larger rear ends 507 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: in more contemporary context, it is a question of why, 508 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: oh why do we all want large butts now that 509 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 1: you know, we see a Gen's shelter or we see 510 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: a Kim Kardashian with one. And then you have bloggers 511 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 1: like Kareema Towns at Think Progress and Brittany Daniel at 512 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: Clutch who were basically talking about the fact that features 513 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 1: that society associates with black women are not okay until 514 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: a white woman. Then introduces them to the culture, and 515 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: then it's like, oh, well, this is a trend, now 516 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 1: this is cool. Well, there is a step along the 517 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: way to that that Jenelle Hopson talks about, which is 518 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: in a big way in the late nineties j Lo. 519 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: Because what's fascinating about j Lo's rise is that she 520 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: was first kind of brought up in hip hop culture, 521 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: but then she becomes more popular in white pop mainstream. 522 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: And so Hobson talks about how through her less culturally deviant, 523 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: though still sexualized Latina body I'll see also our episode 524 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: on Exotic Beauty that it then begins the normalization process. 525 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 1: And so then fast forward to the two thousand fourteen 526 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: Vanity Fair spread of jen Selter showing off her butt, 527 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: which elicited you know, Karema towns that think progress saying, 528 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: whoa what, what's going on here? Yeah? Exactly. And now 529 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: that there's anything at all wrong with jen Selter or 530 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: j Lo or Kim Kardashian or whoever, like wanting to 531 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: take belfies but selfies or showing off their butt or 532 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,800 Speaker 1: anything like that, it's just the fact that there's there's 533 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: a lot of history behind the behind that is just 534 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: ignored Yeah, butts are a loaded topic. And that's not 535 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,760 Speaker 1: a pun at all in any way, but it's it's 536 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: it's interesting to look at how, you know, you might 537 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 1: pride yourself on your rear end of whatever shape it 538 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,479 Speaker 1: is and size, but the fact that there's so much 539 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: meaning behind all of that, and and how society has 540 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,359 Speaker 1: viewed it over the centuries well, and how it has 541 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 1: tied into how society, white society in particular has portrayed 542 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: black women. I mean, really, what it boils down to 543 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 1: is that, you know, if if you want a history 544 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,879 Speaker 1: of you know, why white black women have historically been 545 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: hyper sexualized, you go back to Sarkey Bartman, and it 546 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: all seems to start there because then is linked to, 547 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: you know, this idea of African people being primitive and 548 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 1: over sexualized and and essentially inferior. But I do hope that, 549 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: via Beyonce, Kim Kardashian, etcetera, etcetera, that hopefully we are 550 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: in an era where I mean, we can just maybe 551 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 1: embrace a big butt for what it is, you know, 552 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with people 553 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 1: being attracted to butts, or finding big butts delightful or 554 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,320 Speaker 1: or dancing with their big butt. I'm basically saying to 555 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: working you know what I mean, Like, maybe are we 556 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 1: in a new era of of but pride or are 557 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:51,280 Speaker 1: we simply recycling old fetishizations. Well, maybe we are, maybe 558 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: we're not. I think that like a lot of things 559 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,280 Speaker 1: we talked about on the podcast, you know, like butts 560 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,359 Speaker 1: or don't like butts, small butts, big butts, whatever. But 561 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 1: I think it's important to be aware of the way 562 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 1: you are talking about other women's butts, whether you yourself 563 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 1: or male or female. Yeah, and the assumptions that we 564 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 1: make about someone based on her but because I do 565 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 1: still think that happens a lot. That was one thing 566 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: Hobson also talked about was how at the two thousand 567 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: two US Open, Serena Williams wore this body suit and 568 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 1: it put her, you know, but was very much on display. 569 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: She has a large butt and people would not shut 570 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: up about it, right, And when I was reading that, 571 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: I was like, God, you know, if this were a um, 572 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: very slim figured white woman wearing some type of body 573 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: suit like that, would they have freaked out as much 574 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: as they did when Serena Williams wore it. Serena Williams, 575 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 1: who was African American. All of the body politics that 576 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: goes along with African American women's bodies. I mean, it's 577 00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,399 Speaker 1: it's layered. Well, speaking of bodies, this reminded me that 578 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: a couple of days ago, in fact, the ESPN magazine 579 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: Body Issue, their annual Body issue, came out and they 580 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: did I think it's like six different covers and the 581 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: two featuring a woman on the cover. One is I 582 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 1: don't know her name, oh, a white female athlete, blonde, 583 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 1: and it's the cover shot is very face forward and 584 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,720 Speaker 1: she's holding her breasts and it's just waste up. Serena 585 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 1: Williams is on the other one and it's her profile shot. 586 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:30,840 Speaker 1: All of the athletes on all the covers are naked, 587 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 1: by the way, and it's Serena Williams profile shot emphasizing 588 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,360 Speaker 1: her butt. And I don't and she's seeming in a 589 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: in a pose of pride. I don't think it's anything, 590 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: you know. I think she's she's proud of her but 591 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: so maybe I don't know. It's just interesting that, like 592 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 1: you see the white woman and it's like holding her 593 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 1: boobs and then Serena showing her butt. So maybe it 594 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,400 Speaker 1: maybe it is a bet pride. I don't know. I 595 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,799 Speaker 1: need listeners to share what they think is going on. Yeah, 596 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: I hope this was enlightening, though I know it was 597 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,280 Speaker 1: super enlightening for me. This was a really interesting topic, 598 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: if I do say so myself. Yeah, I mean, I 599 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: will not look at a but the same way ever again. 600 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 1: I will not grab a butt the same way ever again, 601 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,760 Speaker 1: ever again. And once you do, once you make contact, 602 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,520 Speaker 1: you have to at least about one fact on this podcast, 603 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: just think about the politics of what you're doing, folks. 604 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 1: So with that, we want to hear from folks about 605 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: your butt, other people's butts. What are all of your 606 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: thoughts on butts? Do you think we are in an 607 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: era of but pride or is there still a lot 608 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 1: of fetishization at work? Let us know mom Stuff at 609 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 1: how stuffworks dot Com is our email address, and you 610 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: can also message us on Facebook or tweet us at 611 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast. And we have a couple of non 612 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: but related messages to share with you right now. Okay, Well, 613 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from our social media buddy Sarah, 614 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: who was writing us about our women's tennis episode. She says, 615 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:09,879 Speaker 1: as a high school and college tennis player. I thought 616 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: I knew all about the history of tennis, but was 617 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 1: excited to learn more. I especially liked you addressing the 618 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 1: obvious sexism in coverage of female tennis players and the 619 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: emphasis on their looks. It immediately made me think of 620 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: the controversy between Wimbledon Women's singles champion Marian Bartoli and 621 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 1: BBC presenter John Inverdale. Inverdale commented on Bartoli's looks shortly 622 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 1: after she won, saying do you think Bartoli's dad told 623 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 1: her when she was little, You're never going to be 624 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: a looker, You'll never be a Sharapova, so you have 625 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,400 Speaker 1: to be scrappy and fight. Bar totally commented back that 626 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 1: she wasn't blonde, never dreamed of a modeling contract, but 627 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,280 Speaker 1: did dream of winning Wimbledon, and that she was proud 628 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: of her accomplishments. Of course, after Inverdale's comments, Twitter erupted 629 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,279 Speaker 1: with comments about his looks and the overt sexism, as 630 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:05,360 Speaker 1: Inverdale may no comments about Wimbledon Men's singles champion Andy Murray. 631 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:07,799 Speaker 1: She says love the podcast. I just recently discovered it 632 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:09,960 Speaker 1: and have been listening to old episodes NonStop on my 633 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,319 Speaker 1: commute to work. Well, thank you Sarah for listening, and 634 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,759 Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. Well, I've got an email here 635 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 1: from Rachel about our episode on body shaming from a 636 00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,840 Speaker 1: little while back. She writes, I recently had to revisit 637 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:26,799 Speaker 1: my feelings on the subject when I started dating my 638 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 1: current boyfriend, who is a competitive cyclist. His world is 639 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,840 Speaker 1: very centered on fitness, and I've caught hints of body 640 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 1: shaming in his vernacular and in the conversations he has 641 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: with other cyclists. Keeping a low body weight is very 642 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,640 Speaker 1: important to a cyclist because of power to weight ratio 643 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,840 Speaker 1: and for the overall performance of an endurance athlete like 644 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,360 Speaker 1: you two. I used to assume that body shaming was 645 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,800 Speaker 1: a gendered experience that heavily affects women, but through my boyfriend, 646 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,880 Speaker 1: I have a chance to witness men experiencing it. But 647 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 1: under the guise of fitness for cycling. I assume that 648 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:00,400 Speaker 1: men don't want to be seen as insecure here or 649 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: even womanly in their weight concerns, so they couch their 650 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:07,280 Speaker 1: weight commentary in cyclist terms like leaning out or peeking 651 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,279 Speaker 1: for a race. Instead of saying getting fat, they'll say 652 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,320 Speaker 1: losing fitness, and rather than go on the defense, describing 653 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,879 Speaker 1: the life circumstances that prevented them from keeping up their 654 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 1: regimen to justify that perceived moral failing of gaining weight. 655 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,759 Speaker 1: A hilarious conversation I overheard between my boyfriend and a 656 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 1: cyclist friend went down like this, Hey, do you need 657 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,280 Speaker 1: a smaller medium jersey? I'm still small? Oh. I decided 658 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,240 Speaker 1: check because I know you haven't ridden for a while. 659 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 1: I thought you might need a medium jersey nowe m 660 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,920 Speaker 1: for muff and top. According to my boyfriend, these conversations 661 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 1: are very normal and it's just considered friendly banter between athletes, 662 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:44,680 Speaker 1: meant to keep each other in check and have a 663 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 1: bit of fun. I think body insecurities are universal experience 664 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,759 Speaker 1: that manifests itself in so many different ways, but it's 665 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,360 Speaker 1: just more heavily veiled for boys. To me, almost feels 666 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,239 Speaker 1: as though insecurity is for girls and overblown confidence is 667 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:03,359 Speaker 1: for boys. So thanks for those observations, Rachel, and I'm 668 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 1: going to make myself an Emma's for Muffin Top T 669 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:10,719 Speaker 1: shirt like that. It only comes in medium. That's it. Well, 670 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,120 Speaker 1: if you would like an Emmas for a Muffin Top 671 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,640 Speaker 1: T shirt or would like to share your thoughts with 672 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,200 Speaker 1: us on anything else Mom Stuff at how stuff works 673 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 1: dot com is our email address, or if you want 674 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,920 Speaker 1: to get in touch with us via social links to 675 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,880 Speaker 1: all of that stuff, including this podcast with all of 676 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,720 Speaker 1: its source links. If you want to read more about 677 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:34,160 Speaker 1: the history of Sarkympartment, which I highly recommend, there's one 678 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,600 Speaker 1: place to go, and it's Stuff Mom Never Told You 679 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:43,520 Speaker 1: dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 680 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:52,960 Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works dot com.