1 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: This is Me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely 2 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:18,319 Speaker 1: bug bitten in my case underwear listening Hunt podcast. You 3 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 1: can't predict anything presented by on X. Hunt creators are 4 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the 5 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store. Nor 6 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: where you stand with on X. All right, we have 7 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: a special guest today, Roman dial Um, who has a 8 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: new book out with a gigantic I have the the 9 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: what do you call these advanced readers copies? They call 10 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: them arcs in the business um giant quote from John Krakauer. 11 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: A brave and marvelous book, a page turner that will 12 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: rip your heart out. The books called The Adventurer's Son 13 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: by Roll and dial and it tells the story. You 14 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:05,479 Speaker 1: just give me the one sentence. It tells a story 15 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: about looking for my son who went missing in Costa Rica. 16 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: That's a good job. Yeah, a heartbreaking story about raising 17 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: an outdoor son and then losing him in the jungle 18 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: and trying him. Uh. Also called you before we start recording. 19 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: You mentioned Um that you're not a hunter, but your 20 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: hunt and you're not a Yeah, you're not a climber, 21 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: but you climb. No no, no, no no. So I'm 22 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 1: not a hunter, but I do hunt, and I love 23 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: to hunt, you know. And uh, but what makes you 24 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: not a hunter? I don't know if you even realize that. 25 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: But we were talking about this earlier. You've hunted Moosa 26 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: my brother Danny. Yeah, you live in Alaska. I live 27 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: in Alaska. Yeah. And we got a bull and a 28 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: cow the same day. And and your brother Dan and 29 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: my friend Chris Flowers, who's a friend of his. Two 30 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: they cleaned the bull and I cleaned the cow, and so, um, 31 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: but I I hunt for a year. I really like. 32 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: I like to eat year. I try to. I didn't 33 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: hunt this year fish, I know. You know I only 34 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: dip net. Yeah. I'm not really a fisherman, um, but 35 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: I do dip net. I'm kind of like a you know, 36 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: very efficient fisherman. Yeah, I sam and dip net. You know. 37 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: It's I'd like to do that. Um, I don't. I 38 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 1: don't have the patients for hooking line. You know. It's 39 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,519 Speaker 1: just I can't fly fishing. I love the idea of 40 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: fly fishing. I think it's marvelous. I think it's one 41 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: of the most beautiful activities. You know, an outdoor person 42 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: could do, but I can't do it. It's just you 43 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 1: have to stay in one place and I can't do that. 44 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: What strikes she is beautiful about it, all the flailing around. No, 45 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: I think the idea of it, that the beauty is 46 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: that you have to be an ecologist. You have to 47 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 1: be like a practicing apple apply to collegist. You've got 48 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: to think about what the fish is going to eat. 49 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:54,679 Speaker 1: And it's actually people go down to the to the 50 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: fly shop and they feel like what should I come on? Well, 51 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: that's why I'm not efficient. I like the idea of it. 52 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 1: I don't want to do it. But as far as 53 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,399 Speaker 1: like not being a hunter, just because I don't, uh, 54 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: you know, I don't shoot my gun very often, you know, 55 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,959 Speaker 1: I I probably I didn't even know what was called 56 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: processing until a few years ago. What do you think 57 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: it was called butchering um? And I like to clean animals. 58 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: I think that's you know, like I don't really like 59 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:26,399 Speaker 1: to kill them. I mean, I've killed a lot of moose, 60 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: I've killed a lot of caribou, I've killed a bear, 61 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: links I killed a lot of animals, but I don't 62 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: I'm not a great shot, you know, and I don't 63 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: like to go shoot my gun. I gotta. I got 64 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: a lot of guns, but I don't really like them. 65 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: But I really like to clean them, you know, like 66 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: I like to. I feel like if I I feel 67 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: like I do a good job, I take them apart 68 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: real efficiently. They're super clean, and a moose is a 69 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: big animal to take apart. I'd love to get a buffalo. 70 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: That's my kind of dream. I've I've spent enough money 71 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: putting in for the lottery of the buffalo in Alaska 72 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: to just go buy you know, somebody's buffalo over but 73 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: spreads it out nicely for you. Yeah, well, I feel 74 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: like you should. I feel it's be able to cli. 75 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: I mean, if I would like to think that with 76 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: with your approach, I would in my in my hope 77 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: you would be like, yeah, I'm a hunter, Well I hunt, 78 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: you know, And I I would like let me finish 79 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: off the thought about I'm a climber but I don't climb. Well, 80 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: I want to get into that, so yeah, we'll leave 81 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: hunting behind and get into that. Yeah, And I think 82 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: I wanted you to talk about when you quit climbing, 83 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: when I quit climbing. Sure, Yeah, if that if that's 84 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 1: a good way of explaining it. Yeah, why why quit climbing? Yeah, 85 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: it's it's like a chapter in my book, right, And 86 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 1: you're an alpinist. An alpinist yep, I was an alpinist. Yeah. 87 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: An alpinist is like a climber, you know. I think 88 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: of climbers generally, most people think of climbers are sort 89 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: of like rock climbers. There's ice climbers and rock climbers. 90 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 1: But an alpinist to somebody who just rock climbs and 91 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: ice climbs so that they have the skills and the 92 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: technique to go to the big mountains and climb the 93 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: big mountains that have rock and ice and their remote 94 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: and they're in the wilderness and they have weather, and 95 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: it's just like it's kind of like you're living on 96 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,359 Speaker 1: the mountain trying to get up it. Yeah. As a 97 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: not climber, I've often fantasized that, uh, if I wasn't 98 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: into what I was into, if I didn't hunting fish 99 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 1: and stuff, that I would I would want to pursue that. 100 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: But they get whittled away, they do. It's dangers, you 101 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: wind up, but you get to be forty and all 102 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 1: your friends are dead. Yeah, well, you know, I feel 103 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: lucky to have made it as far as I didn't. 104 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: I quit when I was about twenty five and had 105 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: a lot of friends die. I had a lot of 106 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: friends die. Yeah, I um, and they still die. I 107 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: mean like today, you know, more good climbers die than 108 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: bad climbers. You know, like, if you're a bad climber, 109 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: you kind of realized right away that this is maybe 110 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: not for you. It's dangerous, maybe you get out of it. 111 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: But if you're a good climber, you just keep climbing 112 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 1: harder and harder things and going to wilder and wilder 113 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: places until, you know, until you get killed. Because the 114 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:45,919 Speaker 1: mountains don't care how good you are. Yeah, you know, 115 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: you well, you know we've established that. You know, my 116 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 1: brother and Hunter with him, his old roommate Jared. You 117 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: might have known. He died on K two. He wentn't 118 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: attempted K too, got knocked in the head, wought up 119 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,239 Speaker 1: in a hospital in Pakistan, came home, recovered the next season, 120 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: went back and died and he kind of like knew 121 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 1: what was gonna happen. Yeah. Yeah, Well there's two guys, 122 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: Kyle Dempster and his partner. They climbed a mountain in 123 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: Pakistan and they didn't make it to the top. They 124 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: were repelling down and like an anchor pulled or something 125 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: like that. They filled several hundred feet, broke a leg, 126 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: came back the next year and disappeared on the same mountain, 127 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 1: both of them. Yeah, and they were like the two best. 128 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: There's an award called the Pola or like you know, 129 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: the Golden ice Axe, and this kid, Kyle Dempster, he'd 130 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: won it twice as the best climber in the world basically, 131 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: and then you know, he died. So, yeah, the mountains 132 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: don't care how good you are. Is that what got 133 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: you to Alaska climbing mountains? Well? No, you know, when 134 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: I was a kid, I went to Alaska because I 135 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: had um some uncles who lived up there and they 136 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: worked in a coal mining kind of It wasn't really 137 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: a town. It was sort of like a camp in 138 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 1: the Alaska Range. Yeah, that's a crazy story in your 139 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: book about just getting sent up to hang out with 140 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: your uncles and they weren't that interested and really washed 141 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: and after you well, yeah, it was busy working. Yeah, 142 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: and it was a great time. And that's how I 143 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,119 Speaker 1: kind of fell in love with Alaska. I was nine, 144 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: and I had back in those days, you know, we 145 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,239 Speaker 1: didn't really have There was no there were no computers obviously, 146 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: and this place didn't even have like telephones or TV. 147 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: And so I got a taxidermy correspondence course that you 148 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: used to be able to get this tax d correspondence 149 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: course and probably put off some beautiful work. I managed. 150 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: I mounted a raven, I put some caribou antlers that 151 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: were involved together, and um, so I got the whole course. 152 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: Was you're supposed to get it over a year. I said, hey, 153 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: I'm going to Alaska. Send it all to me right now. 154 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: So I had the whole course and I took it 155 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: up there, and I had a bunch of glass eyes 156 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: and excelsior and wire and and that's what I kind 157 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: of did nine years old. You know it was it 158 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: was awesome. You got to go a little ferl work exactly. 159 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: It ruined me for life. Yeah, you know, I could 160 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: do whatever I wanted. I had a motorcycle and uh, 161 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: and my uncle had this dog. It was named Moose 162 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: and it was half wolf, and he would I would 163 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: go out all day with Moose and and then they 164 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: gave me a motorcycle, but I couldn't really, it was 165 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: too big for me. You know how you see kids 166 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: on bicycles that are too big and you know they 167 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: can hardly get up on him. Well with a motorcycle, 168 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: and you have to jump up and kick started. You know, 169 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: if you don't get it going, it falls down. And 170 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: you know, the lever I don't remember. I forget which 171 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: side was which, but the maybe the clutch or the 172 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: break lever, one of them were was broke off. Because 173 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: I've fallen down somebody, there's no going back from that. 174 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: You get that taste of freedom at nine years old 175 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: and being like, oh I'm capable of doing all these things. 176 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: That's it. Yeah, And so I you know, I went 177 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: back to, uh the lower forty eight East Coast. I 178 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: was in Virginia, and as soon as I graduated from 179 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: high school, you know, there's only one place I wanted 180 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: to go, and it was back to Alaska. But um 181 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: so anyway, I've been. I've been living in Alaska for 182 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: about forty years now. I like it. You know, your brother, 183 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: do you think your brother will ever leave? He talks 184 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: about it. He says he's getting sick of wet brush. 185 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: His wife's doesn't want to leave. He kind of wants 186 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: he wants to hang out somewhere to his dry grass 187 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: instead of wet brush. So he's kind of wanting to, 188 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: uh come back down here, but no, he's he's just 189 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: up there his gripe about it, um two grapes, wet brush, 190 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: and everything is like everything is such a production. M 191 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: Like anytime you go to hunt, it's like his boats 192 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: and journeys, and you don't just like go out messing 193 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: around for a couple of hours, Like everything is a production. 194 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't I don't know. I went 195 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: fat biking yesterday. Um, well you know I traveled yesterday. 196 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: The day before yesterday, one of my former gratitudents came 197 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: by and it was like ten below twelve below where 198 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 1: we went biking. It was probably like fifteen or twenty below, 199 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: and that was like right out my door. And I 200 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: live right in town. I live in town, like in midtown. 201 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: He hunts time again local and fishes. But I think 202 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: it like I think hes talking about kind of the more, 203 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: you know, like you don't go and have a like 204 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: your tree stand out in your backyard and you go 205 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: out there and sit for white tails every night. Well 206 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: probably not. Yeah, but I've hunted moves within view of 207 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: my house, like I've killed a moose and I can 208 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: see when my house is. Yeah, but you know, um, 209 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying. But I never lived in 210 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: the other way, like I moved to Alaska when I 211 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: was sixteen, and so I don't really I never lived 212 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: you know, I never hunted deer. I've shot one deer. 213 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: I don't really like dear meet that much. I probably 214 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: shouldn't say that, but you know, you know, when you're 215 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: talking about riding that motorcycle, it's too big for you. 216 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: My friend dear Drew, it was just telling me about 217 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: they had horses when they were little, and she said 218 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: they were so small that they would put grain down. Yeah, 219 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: so the horse had leaned down and get the grain 220 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,559 Speaker 1: and they jump and straddle it behind the ears and 221 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: to jerk its head up and they'd slide down into 222 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: position and ride off. Oh that's cool, that's really cool. 223 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: Good way to mount. So get into the being an 224 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: alpinist and then kind of like when you got scared 225 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: you had your boy at that point in time, or 226 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: did you not know I wasn't too married married, yeah, 227 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:53,719 Speaker 1: but I was with the same woman I am now 228 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: she remember you had like kind of a like a 229 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 1: a sort of an epiphany. Sure, well, you know I 230 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: would climb these mountains, you know, like and I would 231 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: ski into some really distant mountains, like one time when 232 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: I was twenty one, the year I graduated from college. Uh, 233 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: like over spring break, the sky and I Steve will 234 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: we skied sixty miles in and climb out Debra, which 235 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: is a beautiful mountain. You can see it from Fairbanks, 236 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: and Fairbanks is in the middle of the state, and 237 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: it's cold and dry all winter, and you can just 238 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: see these mountains on the skyline. They're beautiful and it's cold, 239 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,199 Speaker 1: so they get they look real close because the cold 240 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: air magnifies the mountains. And in the winter you can't 241 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: do anything but look at the mountains and the sun 242 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: just kind of rolls along the top. It's freaking beautiful. 243 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: And Mount Debra is the prettiest one. And we skied 244 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: in sixty miles, climbed the west face, a big steep face. 245 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: Um you had to like scratch out a pad to 246 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: sleep on the way up, like a little ledge and 247 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: climbed it and came down and Um, and then we 248 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: were gonna go climb Mount Hey is the highest in 249 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 1: the range. But we chickened out repelling over this pass 250 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: and skied out. We ran out of food. I had 251 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: to break into some guys cash his food, his cash. 252 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: You like a little cabin on stilts next to his cabin, 253 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: looking for food, and I found dry dog food. Ate 254 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: the dry dog food, you know, because I was so hungry. 255 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: Um skied out and I was like, I'm not gonna 256 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: climb anymore. This is ridiculous, you know, And I it 257 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: was miserable, you know, hungry, You know, like where you 258 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: hungry where you eat half rations for a couple of days, 259 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:22,439 Speaker 1: and then you go to like quarter rations and then 260 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 1: you're eight rations, and then you eat your last apricots, 261 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: splitting it with your partner, and then you look where 262 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: you dropped some gorp in the snow three weeks ago, 263 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,319 Speaker 1: and you're pawing through the snow looking for the gorp, 264 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:34,719 Speaker 1: and instead of sitting on your pack and eating a 265 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: chocolate bar, you sit on your pack and then you 266 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: fall asleep because you don't have anything else to do, 267 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: and you're hungry, and I thought, you know, this climate 268 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: is nuts and I want to quit. But I it 269 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: was like being an alcoholic. I think, you know, like 270 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: an alcoholic says, I'm not drinking anymore, but the next 271 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: weekend they drink anyway, and uh, and I would go 272 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: back and climb some more. And I've really I've been 273 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: with this girl. You know. I met her when she 274 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: was eighteen. I was nineteen, and I, you know, I 275 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: wanted to get married and have a family. But it 276 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: wasn't until this one particular climb where I realized, you 277 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 1: know what climbing was just kind of more or less 278 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: about luck. You know, it wasn't really about how good 279 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: you were. And and I tell the story, and that's 280 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: that's an interesting perspective, just the luck factor. I had 281 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: a couple of things I noted in the book. One 282 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: that just like how tense things get with climbing partners, 283 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: where you mentioned um getting into getting into a fist fight. Yeah, 284 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 1: well yeah, you know he um picking up and continuing right. Well, 285 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,439 Speaker 1: we didn't. We didn't really we we didn't get in 286 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: a We we had verbal fights, you know, on climbs, 287 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: but we never had a fist fight on the climb. 288 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: We had the fist fight you know back in town. Yeah, 289 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: I never had a fist fight it, I mean, that 290 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: would be a bummer. Maybe it was the girlfriend, you know, 291 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: he said, the one of the guys in his climbing circle. 292 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 1: He's like, yeah, you know, we could tell he was 293 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 1: never going to be very good because he always had 294 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: a girlfriend. Yeah, that's for sure. You know I didn't. 295 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: I didn't really, you know, but this this this particular 296 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: climb when a cornice broke and uh and Chuck Comstock, 297 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 1: the guy that I had gotten into a fight within town, 298 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: and he had just untied from the rope like we were. 299 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: We'd climbed this really, you know, steep face took several 300 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: days to get up camped on top. It was in 301 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: marches like thirty below. And then we were feeling so 302 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: full of ourselves we decided to go down this ridge 303 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: that I don't even climbed once. And the people who 304 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: went up it didn't want to go back down, and 305 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: we were like, oh, we can go down it. So 306 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: we went down and had all these cornices, you know, 307 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: going both ways, and explain explained people are what a 308 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: cornice is, because this is really there's another thing I 309 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: wanted to ask you about when you're in your climbing 310 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: discussion was what I had no idea that this happens. 311 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: What you do in one of those breaks a cornice 312 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: when it breaks, well, you know, well how you and 313 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 1: your partner working tandem to not die. But first, some 314 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: people water cornice. Cornice, Well, you know, if if you 315 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: don't live in a snow area, a cornice kind of 316 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: looks like a frozen wave of snow, but instead of 317 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: like the ocean and and wind pushing the ocean into 318 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: a wave, the wind pushes the snow over the crest 319 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: of a mountain ridgeline, and then it builds like a 320 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: frozen wave up on top, and and the wind keeps 321 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: piling up more and more snow until um, you know, 322 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: it's kind of flat on top, and you are walking 323 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 1: on this ridge. You might not really know where you're overhanging, 324 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: you know, the top of this cornice. And then um, 325 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: in certain places in the world, and in the Alaska 326 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: Range in particular, you'll get um moist air blowing from 327 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: the ocean side and it condenses on the mountain like 328 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: the ice that used to build up in people's refrigerators. 329 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: If you have an old freezer, for example, with a 330 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: bad gasket and got a bunch of meat in there. 331 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: You know, if you've got a bad gasket, you get 332 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: that rhiny ice around the edge, and that rhyme ice 333 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: can build into this huge bulge, like a overhanging bulge, 334 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: you know, like it can be you know, twenty or 335 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: thirty ft of overhang, this big rime bulge. And then 336 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: on top of that, the wind is usually blows from 337 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: the ocean side and it will blow snow that makes 338 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: this frozen wave on the other side. So you kind 339 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: of have a sort of like a double cornice where 340 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: you got an overhanging wave on one side and then 341 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: this big bulging rhyme on the other. So it's kind 342 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: of an unstable feature. And you know, in rock climbing 343 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: they have cams and petons and stuff you can stick 344 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: in a crack, and in ice climbing they got screws 345 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: you can screw into the waterfall. But on this ridge climbing, 346 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: you know, you can't really protect it. So the only 347 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: thing you can do is if the thing breaks, you 348 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: gotta go off the other side. So the rope kind 349 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: of goes over both sides of the mountain. Jump off 350 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: the side. Yeah, you gotta jump and then the rope 351 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: cuts into the cornice. Yeah it stops. Yeah, it would 352 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: be hard, yeah, exactly. And it's uh, it's kind of 353 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: a mythical thing, like nobody ever thinks you're ever gonna 354 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: have to do it, and very few people have actually 355 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: done it as far as I know, and so on 356 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: this particular. But like when it does happen, like what 357 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: a leap of faith? Man, Yeah, what a leap of faith. 358 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: And then you kind of have to hope you're going 359 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: off the right side, you know. But this it was 360 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: pretty obvious. He had broken the cornice side, the soft 361 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 1: you know, windside, and I went off on the rhemy side, 362 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: and uh, and then you know, fell a long ways. 363 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: I thought I was going to die or at least 364 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 1: get broken, and um, because I tumbled because it's like 365 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 1: a big cart wheel, because he went straight down when 366 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 1: he broke the cornice. He could he falls straight down 367 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 1: and he's out ahead of me, and I jumped off 368 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: and then I had to pendel him down, you know, 369 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 1: over a bunch of space. And if you hadn't done that, 370 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: we probably both would have gone off the same side 371 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: and tumbled down and got broken up. Yeah it would, 372 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: he just would have yanked me off. So but yeah, 373 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: it did. And I was like, yeah, this is it. Um, 374 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: you know, we skied out, and you know, I actually 375 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: right after that, I thought, you know, I might come 376 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: back and climb that mountain. But I skied back to 377 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: town and uh and went and I was telling the 378 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: stories about this climb, and I was like, you know, 379 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: this is nuts. I think I'm just gonna get married. 380 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: So I got married like just like that was March 381 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 1: and I was married in June and then and then 382 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: so that was like the end of my climbing. And um, 383 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: not a big wedding, right if I remember right, you know, 384 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: I don't know. They were twenty or thirty people. Was 385 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: in a big field, you know, outside of Fairbanks. It 386 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: wasn't huge, no, not at all. And my my parents 387 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 1: were there. Her her parents didn't come, you know, because 388 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: they didn't think of a wedding should be outside. They 389 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: should thought it should be in a church, you know, 390 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 1: but so decided not to come. With all that'll fix you. Yeah, 391 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: but she you know, Peggy's the youngest of ten kids 392 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: and and uh and her parents, you know, maybe they 393 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: didn't have a lot left for her by the end. Yeah, 394 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: I don't know. They were tapped out. I think so. 395 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: So when you quit like kind of like that biggest 396 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 1: form of adventure, but when you had your kid, you 397 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 1: really focused heavily on I would say that an extreme version, 398 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: a pretty extreme version of of a association with nature 399 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: an adventure. Sure. I mean I I did, guy did 400 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: crazy stuff. Well, I mean I still like being outside. 401 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: I mean you can't. If you live in Alaska you 402 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: don't like being outside, You're not really gonna like live 403 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 1: in there much because that's that's what Alaska has a 404 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: lot of. And um. And I had found that I 405 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,719 Speaker 1: liked going to the mountains, Like I didn't like just 406 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: climbing the mountains, but I like like skiing into the 407 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: mountains or um. On another trip, we we climbed the 408 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: mountain and then we rafted out and um. And one 409 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: time I had gone into the mountains with this guy, 410 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 1: Karl Tobin and another guy and we didn't get up 411 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: the peak. We got avalanched off and I was aunty 412 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 1: because I wanted to do something. I said, Hey, let's 413 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: just ski out to the highway. It was like fifty 414 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: five miles and I'm like, no, we don't want to ski, 415 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: We're gonna stay here. So I skied out by myself, 416 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: and the year before i'd skied out from a different 417 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: mountain in a parallel out, and I thought, wow, I 418 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: wonder which way is faster. You know, this was like 419 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty um three, so it was a long time ago, 420 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: and I thought, wow, I know how to find out. 421 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 1: It's like fifty sixty miles. We should have a ski 422 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: race and see what is the fastest way. In fact, 423 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: let's just have a wilderness ski race across the Alaska 424 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 1: Range from highway to highway, like a hundred fifty miles. 425 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: And you know, there hadn't been any I mean, they're 426 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 1: they're ultra running wasn't a thing yet, especially and no 427 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: ultra skiing. And so that I was like twenty twenty 428 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: years old maybe, and uh I met a guy at 429 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 1: a like on campus at the university, and he had 430 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: a fire and he had an idea for like a 431 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 1: foot race across the Kenai Pencil and the Kenai pensils 432 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: like that when you look at a map of Alaska 433 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: and you know anchorages right down there in the southern 434 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: part and the Kenai pencils that little kind of like 435 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: that moose bell that hangs down from Alaska and uh. 436 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: And he was going to have a race from Hope 437 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: to Homer across the Keenai pencil and he called it 438 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 1: a foot race. And the rules were really simple. Everything 439 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: you needed you had to carry with you and you 440 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: including all your food, and you couldn't use any roads, 441 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: and you couldn't use any pack animals, and you couldn't 442 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: use any motorized vehicles, and you couldn't get any help 443 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: from anybody along the way. And he envisioned a swimming 444 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: the rivers. And I saw this idea. I was like, wow, 445 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 1: that's the same idea that I have. But you know, um, 446 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: I want to do a ski race you guys? Well kid, 447 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: because he was in his thirties, Well kid, and he 448 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: was a mountain guide. Well kid, why did you come 449 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 1: down and do do my race and then we'll do yours. 450 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: So I went down there, and um, and there was 451 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: an old man there and he says, hey, kid, where's 452 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: your tent? I said, I didn't bring a tent. I'm 453 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: not taking a tent. I'm going light. And he says, well, 454 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: where are you gonna sleep? Tonight, and I said, I'm 455 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: just gonna sleep out here in my baby sacs. Well, 456 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 1: come on into my tents. So I slept in his 457 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: tent and I looked at him. He was like my 458 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: age now, actually is younger than I am now. And 459 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: I thought, this guy is not going to finish this. 460 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: He shouldn't even be here, you know. And then I 461 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: saw some other guy and he looked kind of clumsy. Well, 462 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: the clumsy guy caught up with me the first day 463 00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: after I had gone like forty miles all the only 464 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: trail we all did. We hiked the trail, the whole 465 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: forty miles trail. The first day's like a hundred fifty 466 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 1: mile race. You had to carry all your food and 467 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: everything with you. And I was I had skis with 468 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: me because I was going to ski across the harding 469 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: ice field, because I didn't want to have to swim 470 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: all these rivers, because that's how we're going to cross 471 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: the river. You're gonna go up higher and ski where 472 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: it's frozen. Yeah, And but because I didn't want to 473 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: swim river, Swimming glacial rivers seems stupid to me. And 474 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: so um, we got to the first glacial river and 475 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: usually you wait for the you know, the morning, because 476 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: the sun melts the snow on the glacial rivers and 477 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: then in the morning the waters down, and it seemed 478 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: like a smarter time to swim it. And we're waiting. Yeah, yeah, 479 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: it's been cold on it. So we're waiting around and 480 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 1: everybody catches us, Me and this guy man's or we're 481 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: out in the front. And then that old man, I'm 482 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: like what he caught up to us and he pulls 483 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,959 Speaker 1: out of his pack like these Viking horn hat, you know, 484 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: like some soft goofy hat, and he puts it on. 485 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: He goes, you know, what are you guys doing here? 486 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: You young guys should have been to uh halfway to 487 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 1: Homer by now. And we're like, yeah, well we got 488 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: stuck by the river. He goes, yeah, you young guys. 489 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: You don't know. Then and eat too much and then 490 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: and then he reaches into his pack and he pulls 491 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: out this little inflatable raft kind of like the pack 492 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: raft you used when you went, you know, on your 493 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: buffalo hunt in Alaska, but this was like a kmart 494 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: vinyl raft and he pulls it. I says, you guys 495 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: can't swim these glacial rivers. You know, they're too swift 496 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 1: and cold and dangerous. He says, uh, you know, old 497 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: age and treachery will beat youth and skill every time. 498 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: And he blew up his raft. Yeah exactly, and he 499 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: paddled across and he almost won the race and without 500 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: running a step. You know. But anyway, when I saw 501 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: that pack raft um, I thought, yeah, that's why, that's 502 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: what I want one of those. And and just crossing 503 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: like a hundred fifty miles of Alaskan wilderness. It took 504 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: me a week, you know, which is like nowadays we do. 505 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: Not me, I'm kind of too old for that, but 506 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 1: you know that nowadays people do like a hundred fifty 507 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: miles across Alaskan wilderness in like three days or less. 508 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 1: And but to have that kind of freedom, to be 509 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 1: able to go through trackless wilderness like with rivers and 510 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 1: glaciers and bogs and dealing with bears and boulders some 511 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: bad brush, it was an incredible sense of freedom. I 512 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:04,959 Speaker 1: don't understand how when you guys are doing these races. 513 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,159 Speaker 1: I understand Danny is the first one to talk about this, 514 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 1: but you guys use the mountain bikes, but there's no 515 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 1: but totally off trail. You're riding on gravel bars. I 516 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: have done, asker or what No, Yeah, sometimes I have done. 517 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 1: I did one of those races with a mountain bike, 518 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: um with my son, because I didn't want him to 519 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: hurt his feet, because when you want when you go 520 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: fifty miles in a day, it hurts your feet, you know. 521 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 1: And uh, I didn't really want him. He was sixteen. 522 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 1: He wanted to do one of these races, and I said, well, 523 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: let's just use our mountain bikes and uh. And so 524 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: when you take a mountain bike, you know, you have 525 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:37,959 Speaker 1: to go to the right place. Like I wouldn't do 526 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: it on the Keyni because it's too brushy. But the 527 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: Talquita Mountains are real nice and there's a bunch of 528 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: a TV trails for like fifty miles. So we rode 529 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: and then the a TV trails ended, and then what 530 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 1: you do is you kind of push your bike up 531 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: a hill and then you coast down the tundra. So 532 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: it's you can you know, you can really milk the tune. 533 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: You don't just ride the steepest way down. You kind 534 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: of go at a real gentle angle to milk it, 535 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,120 Speaker 1: you know. And so you can hike up the trail, 536 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 1: hike up the hill pushing your bike like you know, 537 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: a mile an hour, which is the usual hike and speed. 538 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: But then when you go down you're going like three 539 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,679 Speaker 1: or four miles an hour, which is much faster. And 540 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,360 Speaker 1: then there's game trails. If you get good at following 541 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 1: game trails, you know, Moose trails aren't so good, but 542 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: Cariboo trails are good. Bear trails are pretty good. As 543 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,239 Speaker 1: Danny was telling me too, is you said a lot 544 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 1: of times you're not down in the valley floor, you're 545 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: not down in the rocks. He talked about like trying 546 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: to like going going on sign going up the sides 547 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: a little bit looking for good trails. Oh yeah, like 548 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 1: that's I love following trails, and I you know, I 549 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: got into the mountain bike and thing like I we 550 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: I got into the mountain bike and think for about 551 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: ten years because the hiking was kind of easy. Anybody 552 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: can hike anywhere just you can hike in a straight 553 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: line if you wanted to, but with a bike you can't. 554 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: You get punished if you go in a bad place. 555 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: You know, you're just pushing your bike or carrying it. 556 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: And you're thinking why did I bring it? And so 557 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: so you're always looking for good You have to be 558 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: like you have to know how to read the landscape 559 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: and how to find good traveling conditions and find gravel bars, 560 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: like I used to say, gravel bars, game trails, and glaciers. 561 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: Those were the best writing. And if you go late 562 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: in the season, the glaciers, especially nowadays, all the snow 563 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: is kind of melted off and you can right on 564 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: the bare ice. So yeah, I went from Canada to 565 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: Lake Clark with a mountain bike in nineteen It was 566 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: eight hundred miles or so. And there were these three 567 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: hikers and they started ahead of us, and it was 568 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: sort of like a race to see who would be 569 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: the first people to traverse the Alaska Range, which goes 570 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 1: kind of from Canada over to Lake Clark, which is 571 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 1: to the west of Anchorage. And they left, you know, 572 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: six weeks ahead of us, and they started a hundred 573 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: miles shorter route than we did. We started right at 574 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: the Canadian border and they started over by Toke and 575 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 1: uh they were when we left the Canadian border on 576 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 1: the fourth of July. They were in Mountain Dnally National 577 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: Park at condition to having a party for the fourth 578 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 1: of July, and we caught him. We caught him at 579 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: Rainy Pass. Uh, not really passed near Rainy Pass where 580 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 1: the you know the I didarad goes over the Alaska 581 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: Range called Roan Roadhouse. Actually we didn't catch them there. 582 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: They left us a note because we had a food 583 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: cash there and uh. And there were three of us 584 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: on our mountain bikes and a really good mountain bike 585 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: riding right after that. Because they're all these buffalo trails. 586 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: There's another buffalo herd on the cuscal Quim on the 587 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 1: South Fork or the customer Quim and the hertman and buffalo. 588 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 1: They don't like brush, they don't like logs, and so 589 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: whenever there was a log they would walk around the 590 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: logs or there were all these buffed out single tracks 591 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: that we were riding, you know, in the wilderness. It 592 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: was like spectacular. And then we we had pack raphs, 593 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: so whenever we were going down river, if the river 594 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 1: got big enough, we would just put our pack rafts 595 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 1: on our put our mountain bikes on our pack rafts 596 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: and then float down. And we caught these hikers and 597 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: then we traveled with them and we were all going 598 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: to finish together, but we had a bike problem with 599 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: a break or something, and they hiked off into the 600 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: fog and then we never saw him again, and we 601 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 1: ended up getting to the end faster than they did. 602 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: So anyway, that was you know, I was into mountain 603 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: bikes for a while, but using them as sort of 604 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 1: a wilderness travel tool because walking is kind of it's not, 605 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: it's just it's easy. I like walking, and I do that. 606 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 1: I'm an old man now, so I do a lot 607 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,919 Speaker 1: more walking. I don't do those bike trips anymore. But 608 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: they were really sad. Almost sixty. Yeah, i'll be sixty 609 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: this year. Yeah, I'm feeling it. Really. You look fine? Yeah, 610 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: he's all great. Yeah, well I can't walk fifty miles 611 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: in a day anymore. No one can. Nobody should let 612 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: me put it there like people don't huh. Yeah they're 613 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: the smart. But yeah, you only compare yourself to yourself, right, Yeah, 614 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: if your measure was just the average person, it would 615 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: be pretty dizzy. How old are you? Uh huh? Well 616 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: do you need to use reading glasses yet? Uh huh? 617 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: Do you forget like where your keys are and stuff 618 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: like that? Well, that's coming me and Anthony, here were 619 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: out ice fishing yarday, and we were trying to we're 620 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: trying a little we're trying to put some like seven 621 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: X tip it um through, you know, the size eight. Dude, 622 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: we're cursing up storm ACX. Neither of us had our 623 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: See Steve, you have your old man glasses. I forgot 624 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: mine too. Oh yeah, like holding it up to the 625 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: light and messing with it and yeah, look I have 626 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: to carry him around like all that same time. But 627 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: you know what, I like those clicker little dealies. But um, 628 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: when you got a hat on, they start to be 629 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: painting the gas, yeah, or a hood. Yeah, lots of 630 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: things good for sitting around. That's about all I do 631 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: right now, but a lot of sitting. Yeah it's winter time, 632 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: and yeah I'm a professor, so I don't have a 633 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: I gotta teach my classes and write my papers and 634 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: stuff like that. But summertimes coming and I'll get out again, 635 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: like I'm really. The brook Strange is my sort of 636 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: favorite mountain range right now. I love the Brooks Range. 637 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: Have you been to the Bookstrange the many times? Lets 638 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: just say many times? But yeah, what do you have 639 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: you hunted up there? Then? What do you like sheep 640 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: or caribou caribou? Huh? Where'd you go? Handful of places 641 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: so out. I spent some time with some anthropologists um 642 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: up in the npr A. Yeah, like the Utcock area. 643 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:13,719 Speaker 1: I would talk ut yeah, and then hunted over um 644 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: hunted caribou a little bit south of there. Oh yeah, 645 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: that was in your book those archaeologists, right, yeah, and 646 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: then um south of hunt a handful. Hunted a handful 647 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: of those rivers that are on the north slope, on 648 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: the north slope east of the pipeline, like the Hula 649 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: Hula or the ja Go or the Chillic or the Canning, 650 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: none of those, but the stuff that flows into the 651 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: sag Sag okay, Yeah, yeah, I've hunted ca yep, the 652 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: Sagram talk yeah, like you. It's a pretty the Attican Gorge. 653 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: It's a nice way to get my son. And I 654 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,719 Speaker 1: did a caribou packgraph cariboo hunt. We paddled through that 655 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: Attic and gorge and then hunted cariboo along the sag 656 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: And because you can get five miles from the road 657 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: really easy that way. Uh. Talk about your son a 658 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: little bit, having him and kind of what you you know, 659 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: you know, tell everybody about sort of like the philosophy 660 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: had exactly you did stuff, I say, nearly you did 661 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: stuff with your boy that that would strike a lot 662 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: of people's maybe even irresponsible. Probably. Yeah. Well, you know, um, 663 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: my dad didn't do as much with me as I 664 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: wish that he had done. You know, my parents divorced 665 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: when I was pretty young, and and my dad hadn't 666 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: his his parents had divorced, and so he didn't really 667 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: know how to be a dad. And maybe I didn't either, 668 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: you know, But I did know that I wanted to 669 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: have a better relationship with my son, you know, and 670 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: I wanted to do stuff with him, like from the beginning, 671 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: you know, and I wanted him to enjoy what we 672 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: were doing, and so and so, you know, from a 673 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,719 Speaker 1: young age, like I would take him out, you know, 674 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: on nature walks, or we'd go to the ocean. He 675 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: liked to tide pool like everybody does, you know, especially 676 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: when I was in grad school and the coast of California. 677 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: There's all kinds of cool things and it's just a 678 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: fascinating place. And then when I worked on my pH d, 679 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: I did this canopy project in Puerto Rico in the 680 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: Caribbean and h his his name he back then was Cody, 681 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: you know, his name was Cody Roman dial and Um. 682 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: And he and I went to scope out where I 683 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: would stay before my daughter and wife came out to 684 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: Puerto Rico to join up with us. So, you know, 685 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: we wandered around the rain force. He was three years old, 686 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: you know, and it was fun. He liked it, you know. 687 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: And I tried to be real. I want, I didn't 688 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: want to like freak him out. I didn't want to 689 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: like make him carry a pack or be uncomfortable, because 690 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: I wanted him to want to go out, you know 691 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: what I mean. I wanted him to be a partner. 692 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: I wanted. I mean I wanted. I wanted him to 693 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: be a partner. Now. I wanted him to be like 694 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: at the point where he would carry my stuff instead 695 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: of me carrying his stuff, you know what I mean. 696 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: And I think it's a pretty long game. I was 697 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: playing a long game. Yeah, I mean, I think I 698 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: know you your father probably took you out right, and 699 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: I I love going out with my son, and I 700 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: tried I didn't want to spoil it, you know what 701 00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: I mean. I want, I was playing the long game. 702 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,719 Speaker 1: I ever wanted to spoil it. And when he was six, 703 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: you know, I wanted to take him on a wilderness 704 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: trip in Alaska and um because we just moved back 705 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: up there. I got a job as a professor up there, 706 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: and and I wanted to go a place where there 707 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: it was sort of safe, like no big glacial rivers, 708 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: you know. I didn't want to have to take a 709 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: pack raft and deal with carrying that kind of stuff. 710 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: And I didn't want it there'd be any grizzly bears, 711 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: you know. And so I found this island and the 712 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: allusions called Umnak, and it had a geyser base, and 713 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: I thought he might want to see these is it 714 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: like a little miniature yellow Stone. I thought that'd be 715 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: a cool place to go. So I, I don't know, 716 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: somehow I wrangled a way to get out to this 717 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: the third Alusian island, like Unimac is the first one, 718 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: and then Unalaska where Dutch harbors, and then there's Umnak. 719 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: And Umnak had like the secret military base in World 720 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: War two on one end, and it has a an 721 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: old alley village on the other end and the reindeer 722 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,239 Speaker 1: wild cattle yep, it has reindeer and wild cattle and 723 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: it's you know, there's no reindeer. Yeah, they introduced him there, 724 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: and they're kind of weird colors. Stuff. That's become like 725 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: a popular thing as far as it strikes me to 726 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: me when people from the Lower forty eight want to 727 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: go up and hunt cariboo in Alaska but they wind 728 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:12,320 Speaker 1: up hunting like introduced reindeer on one of the Aleutian islands. Well, um, people, 729 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: but it's like it was like you could go hunt 730 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: cariboo where cariboo live. Yeah, well, you know, I've never 731 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,800 Speaker 1: shot a reindeer. Um. I think a lot of those 732 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: Western Arctic cariboo though, like the ones up around the 733 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: uticac in An n p r A, I think a 734 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: lot of those have reindeer blood in them. Yeah. I 735 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: mean like geneticist like people like tax on Um has 736 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: just regarded all of one one species. Yeah, but I 737 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 1: mean yeah, but they're they're a different animals and they 738 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,399 Speaker 1: look different and act different everything. So anyway, I took 739 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: my son out there, and he was six, and we 740 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,760 Speaker 1: walked across this island like sixty miles, and I carried 741 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: everything and sometimes I carried him and and it was 742 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: like a life changing thing for both of us and 743 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 1: I the six years old and sixty miles. How many 744 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,800 Speaker 1: days like a week? I think it was like seven 745 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: days and then we got stuck out there for another week. 746 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 1: But when we landed at this you know, one side 747 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: at this secret military base wasn't secret but from World 748 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:04,879 Speaker 1: War two is secret. And there was a family living 749 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 1: there who were trying to make money off the cattle 750 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: that were kind of feral on the island, and um, 751 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 1: you know, I'll never forget. The father was like, well, 752 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: what's your name? I said, Oh, I'm Roman dial and 753 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: he goes, he bends over, he goes, well, what's your name, 754 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: little fella, And my son goes, I'm Roman two. And 755 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,399 Speaker 1: he'd never said, you know, his name was Roman. And 756 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 1: I was like blown away. I mean like, I don't know, 757 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: it's kind of maybe embarrassing, but I think, you know, 758 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: as a his father's you kind of do want your 759 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 1: son to, you know, do the stuff you want to 760 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 1: do is to have him call himself because that was 761 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,240 Speaker 1: his middle name, and ever after that he was Roman. 762 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: It was like a little validation of dad. It kind 763 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: of is, yeah, you know, do you have kids, No, 764 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: you should. Steve's wife would agree. Yes, it is not 765 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: for due to lack of trying on my wife's part, 766 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: not that she's trying to have kids. Was like Steve 767 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,879 Speaker 1: clar I got a whole pile of them. Man, yeah, 768 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,919 Speaker 1: well good three young kids. Oh really? Yeah? I love 769 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: I love being a dad. It was awesome. And I 770 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: have to two young kids too, And that's why I think, 771 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: you know, we could all relate to what you're saying. 772 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: You know, you want them to have a good time, 773 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: you want them to do. What's the things you do. 774 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: One of the things that I found really interesting about 775 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: your book is how you incorporated your kids into your 776 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 1: work a little bit. You talked about that being in 777 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: the canopy, right, so you're you're scientists, you're doing research, 778 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: and kids love to do that. So as they grew older, 779 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: they're helping you with that. And I found that really interesting. 780 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: And do you think that helped foster their love of 781 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 1: the outdoors and nature? Well, I hope so. But you know, 782 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: they they know my my daughter, um, I pushed her 783 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: too hard because if you have like two kids and 784 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: they're say, like, my kids are two years or three 785 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: years apart, and you're kind of this is your first 786 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: you know, we don't get a lot of chances with kids, 787 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And so when you got 788 00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: like a four year old and you want to take 789 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:00,839 Speaker 1: them on a hike, you know, you're like, oh, I'm 790 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: going to four year old pace, but the two year 791 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: old who's there is just like struggling to keep up. 792 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: And then they end up hating that. Like you have 793 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 1: that issue with my kids, same thing. I've seen it 794 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,360 Speaker 1: like in multiple like they grow up and then the 795 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 1: older ones like this outdoor stud and then the younger 796 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: ones like you know, stay at home or right four 797 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: wheel ers something like that, and and I've watched it 798 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: now and that's that's the answer I've come up with. 799 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 1: It's like my hypothesis is that we tend we think 800 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,359 Speaker 1: we're being real easy on our kids, and we're being 801 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: easy on the older one, but then the younger one 802 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: is like, uh, you know, I don't know, but you're 803 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:37,839 Speaker 1: the youngest of your three brothers, of you three, right, 804 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 1: and you turned out okay, I guess yeah, but raising 805 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,800 Speaker 1: them it's hard. I have to we have spread that 806 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: significant ability, you know, when I think in a decade 807 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: it probably won't be but right now, I mean it's 808 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 1: a huge difference between a nine year old and a 809 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: four year old. Oh yeah, you can't. It's hard to 810 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 1: take them both on the same trip, I know, And 811 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: that causes attention. That caused a lot of tension to 812 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,799 Speaker 1: my wife because she's like, why is I'm like, she 813 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: goes like the older one, but when he was four, 814 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:06,359 Speaker 1: he would go do that like because it was only 815 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,279 Speaker 1: one and keeping one kid drying warm is different than 816 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: keeping three kids drying warm. So it's like, I don't know, 817 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,399 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what to do. Yeah, I don't. 818 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,840 Speaker 1: I don't know, Like I need to hire someone to 819 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,239 Speaker 1: come along, because it's hard to keep three people warm 820 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 1: and dry. So the ones, the one at nine when 821 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,720 Speaker 1: he was whatever he had, he had had more experiences. 822 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 1: We're all checking muskrat traps this morning, um, and you 823 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:35,959 Speaker 1: know I grabbed him because he's like up and gets 824 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: his clothes on by himself, and you know when I 825 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: had to like wake up and get his clothes on. 826 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,919 Speaker 1: So it's got lazy. I've been trying to leave home 827 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: my twelve year old and take out my eight year 828 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 1: old daughter once in a while. That goes over real 829 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: well down right, and that's difficult. He gets annoyed, but 830 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 1: I say, look, I've done plenty things just you and I. 831 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 1: You know, hann and I. You know, this is just 832 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: for her, but it's I don't know what the easy answers, 833 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: but I I had to do that to avoid that problem. Oh, 834 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 1: they look gut shot when you bring that up. Well, 835 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: I'm glad you're doing that, because I remember when I 836 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,239 Speaker 1: came back from that, I'm not trip. My daughter's like, Dad, 837 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,360 Speaker 1: when when are you? When? When are you and me 838 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 1: gonna do a six day trip? You know? She wanted 839 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 1: to do one and I was like, oh, it's coming. 840 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: And I never did one until she was kind of 841 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 1: grown up, and then it was too late, you know. 842 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: And I look back and I think, oh, I wish 843 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: I had done that, because you know, she's not really 844 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 1: an outdoorsy person, although I asked her once. I said well, 845 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:28,399 Speaker 1: what is it mean to be outdoorsy for a girl? 846 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: And she goes, oh, it means you can go to 847 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 1: the bathroom outside. Yeah, that's a measure like how comfortable 848 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: you are being outside? I propose your friend of mine 849 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 1: and Tracy the other day, said there's a good little 850 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,399 Speaker 1: spot to go pee, and she said, I'll just wait, 851 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,360 Speaker 1: there you are. Yeah, I guess not outdoorsy. She's pretty 852 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: out of that. Yeah, but yeah, she viewed it like, 853 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 1: you know, would rather hold it than p outside. Well, 854 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 1: I mean, would imagine every time you had to pee, 855 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 1: you had to pull your pants down, especially if it's 856 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:02,880 Speaker 1: like windy and snowy. And yeah, yeah, I think that's 857 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 1: why they have skirts. They should get they should have 858 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: really good outdoor skirts. So that you just guess, yeah, 859 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,319 Speaker 1: were you were? You? I'm gathering you weren't surprised when 860 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,839 Speaker 1: your kids started doing Um, when your son, who will 861 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 1: call Roman Roman? Yeah you call him Roman, of course, yeah, 862 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: I I he wouldn't let me call him Cody, like 863 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 1: he wouldn't let me call him Cody. And um. Yeah, 864 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:32,360 Speaker 1: So anyway, he got to late teens, early twenties, Yeah, 865 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,839 Speaker 1: started doing crazy as trips by himself. You know, I 866 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: I don't know if he I'll tell you what happened 867 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,920 Speaker 1: is he Um, he went away to college, and he 868 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: met a girl in college, and she was from Chicago, 869 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: and and he brought her to Alaska and he took 870 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,719 Speaker 1: her out on a bunch of trips. And that's when 871 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,360 Speaker 1: I knew he was sort of serious about her because 872 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,720 Speaker 1: you know, he'd grown up thinking that trips were about family, 873 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 1: you know, like other kids the school it would be like, oh, 874 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 1: come on, let's go, but he would go with them, 875 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,279 Speaker 1: but they didn't really know enough. You know. He's like 876 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: he used to going out with like me and my friends, 877 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 1: and and we were we'd go really light and we 878 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,040 Speaker 1: could get along with nothing. And then he'd go with 879 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 1: these kids who were kind of clumsy and had too 880 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 1: much stuff, and he, you know, he didn't really seem right. 881 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: He wanted to go with with me and Peggy and 882 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: our family and or my friends. And so when he 883 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: came to Alaska, you know, one summer with his girlfriend, 884 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,840 Speaker 1: and he took her like sea kayaking and backpacking and rafting. 885 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:39,759 Speaker 1: That's when I knew he was serious about her, because 886 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 1: like he was taking her on these trips and taking 887 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 1: care of her and and uh, and he you know, 888 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: he wasn't really a risk taker, you know, like I, 889 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 1: you know, I hadn't and I don't really have anymore. 890 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: All my testosterones kind of drained away and so I 891 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,719 Speaker 1: don't I don't really need the adrenaline rush that I 892 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: used paying a really nice getting old. Yeah, well this 893 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: Feller used to be a lot more sort of adrenaline 894 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 1: um chasing, and but my son wasn't. He was kind 895 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,400 Speaker 1: of like my wife. He he was more risk averse, 896 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 1: you know, my wife, it was sort of That's why 897 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: I loved her, and I feel like she's a good 898 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 1: balance for me. Is because she doesn't need to like 899 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:23,920 Speaker 1: scare her I mean, she likes to scare herself, but 900 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 1: she doesn't have to scare herself at the level that 901 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 1: I do. And I mean everybody likes to scare themself. 902 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 1: That's why amusement park rides are fun, you know, as 903 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: long as you're not going to get hurt. Getting scared 904 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,319 Speaker 1: as fun and um and so, but he was more 905 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 1: thoughtful about getting hurt. He didn't really want to get 906 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,880 Speaker 1: hurt and uh. And so the trips that he would do, 907 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: we're not quite as crazy as the trips that I 908 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,719 Speaker 1: had done, you know. And uh. But he would go 909 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,040 Speaker 1: out and he was exploring things. And by the time 910 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:51,880 Speaker 1: he was in his late teens in his twenties, he 911 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: was doing things on his own and really enjoying it. 912 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 1: And uh. And when he headed to Central America, you know, 913 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,279 Speaker 1: that was a really big varience in the sense that 914 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,400 Speaker 1: you know, he was traveling through foreign countries on his 915 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,879 Speaker 1: own for like six months. I'd never done anything like that, 916 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 1: you know, and especially not in my twenties, um and 917 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:17,120 Speaker 1: speaking Spanish and doing some pretty I think, you know, 918 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 1: amazing wilderness trips in Central America. Yeah, but that was 919 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 1: like a different kind of the difference with the approach 920 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: he was taken on this trip which we're talking about 921 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:27,799 Speaker 1: the like this is the trip that ended up being 922 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,960 Speaker 1: his last trip. Well, no, like before like because he 923 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,400 Speaker 1: went he went to Mexico. I went down there and 924 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 1: sawm and who went back rafting, and then this is 925 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,880 Speaker 1: all one continuous, one continuous thing he was on from 926 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,440 Speaker 1: country to country, country to country. Within that like a 927 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 1: lot of people do that. I mean a lot of 928 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 1: people will go and do you know we used to 929 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:48,959 Speaker 1: do a little bit of that stuff, like go down 930 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,759 Speaker 1: and kind of do like the tracking around, riding buses. Sure, 931 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 1: Disney villagis. But what he The weird part about it 932 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,640 Speaker 1: that I thought it was just unusual is he was 933 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:04,000 Speaker 1: putting in jungle tracks sometimes like kind of off trail 934 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 1: and like little trans sax and like doing like jungle trips, 935 00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 1: heading off by himself into kind of like the same 936 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:13,480 Speaker 1: way if you were up in Alaska you want to 937 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:15,400 Speaker 1: go do a trip. It has never occurred to me 938 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:20,000 Speaker 1: that you'd go and do a trip to the jungle, right, 939 00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,120 Speaker 1: go to a foreign country, find a remote area, and 940 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 1: then just go wander around and there. Right. Yeah. No, 941 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,839 Speaker 1: I I was actually, you know, as a father, I 942 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: was really torn, you know, like I was proud of 943 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,600 Speaker 1: him for doing that, you know what I mean, like 944 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,759 Speaker 1: I kind of raised him with that, not with that. 945 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:39,840 Speaker 1: I wanted him to do that kind of thing. But 946 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 1: then when he was doing it, I was like, oh 947 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:45,400 Speaker 1: my god, you know what I mean, Like I don't know. 948 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:49,240 Speaker 1: I guess if you were in the military and uh, 949 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 1: and then your son joined the military, you'd be both 950 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,399 Speaker 1: proud and terrified at the same time. And so I 951 00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,239 Speaker 1: was like I was really proud of what he was doing, 952 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,439 Speaker 1: but I was terrified, you know, like I was, Oh 953 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 1: my god, I can't believe he's doing that. I you know, 954 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,160 Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I've never done anything like that, and I 955 00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,719 Speaker 1: couldn't do anything like that, and he's doing it, and uh, 956 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 1: you know, at one point he said he was going 957 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,560 Speaker 1: to go to this ruin, you know, in this deep 958 00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,400 Speaker 1: wilderness in Guatemala, and he told me how he was 959 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,279 Speaker 1: going to go in the back way and it was 960 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:18,680 Speaker 1: going to be like, you know, this long wilderness walk 961 00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,359 Speaker 1: and and I wrote him an email because he kept 962 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: in touch with me, he said, here's what I'm gonna 963 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,520 Speaker 1: do and uh. And then usually he go do it 964 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 1: and he'd say, hey, i'm back. I'll tell you about it, 965 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:29,200 Speaker 1: you know, a couple of days, and he'd write a big, 966 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,400 Speaker 1: long story about it. And so he wrote me and 967 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,160 Speaker 1: said here's what I'm gonna do, Dad, And I wrote 968 00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,560 Speaker 1: him back. I said, no, don't do that. You know, 969 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:38,759 Speaker 1: that's don't do it. That's too dangerous. I don't want 970 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:40,680 Speaker 1: you to do that. You know, there's I've made all, 971 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:42,600 Speaker 1: you know, I went through all the reasons not to. 972 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:44,239 Speaker 1: But I didn't send that email. I wrote it, but 973 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:46,279 Speaker 1: I didn't send it to him. And then I wrote 974 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,480 Speaker 1: another one. I tried to like tone it down, and 975 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:51,040 Speaker 1: I wrote another one and I couldn't send him there 976 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,319 Speaker 1: all like don't do it. And I was telling him, 977 00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:56,759 Speaker 1: like all the things people had said to me over 978 00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,440 Speaker 1: the years, like taking a mountain bike across the Alaska Range, 979 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,399 Speaker 1: what kind of id it? Or you you know, Oh 980 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:05,360 Speaker 1: you're gonna walk across the wrangel Saint Elias in October. No, 981 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,719 Speaker 1: you're not. You know what I mean. I kind of 982 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:10,360 Speaker 1: have spent forty years listening to people say that. But 983 00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:13,759 Speaker 1: a difference, not to discredit the feats you did, but 984 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,440 Speaker 1: the difference there is you could rattle off because of 985 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: your familiarity with the state, you could rattle off the 986 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 1: reasons why not. And when you get into being like 987 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,279 Speaker 1: someone who's from the north and they go down and 988 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:29,160 Speaker 1: there in this area, um, you wouldn't be able to 989 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,560 Speaker 1: make a you wouldn't really have what it takes to 990 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:35,000 Speaker 1: make a comprehensive list of the potential problems. Well, he 991 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 1: he kind of he'd been to the tropics a lot, 992 00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,440 Speaker 1: you know, like when he was three years old, he 993 00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,840 Speaker 1: spent you know, almost you know, seven months in Puerto 994 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,680 Speaker 1: Rico and then then we traveled the world, and he'd 995 00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:48,160 Speaker 1: been to Costa Rica twice, you know when he was 996 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,560 Speaker 1: taking you know, he went down there on a tropical 997 00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,680 Speaker 1: ecology class. I taught there, and he went down there 998 00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:55,640 Speaker 1: with me when I did a research project. There's spent 999 00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,359 Speaker 1: a lot of time in Borneo. I spent a lot 1000 00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,520 Speaker 1: of time He and I spent two months like in 1001 00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:03,160 Speaker 1: a junk in Borneo at a research station, and he'd 1002 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,160 Speaker 1: already been there like three times, so he knew the rainforest, 1003 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:10,759 Speaker 1: you know. He like I remember, like he studied ants, 1004 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,480 Speaker 1: like he knew which ants were dangerous and which ones weren't. 1005 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,120 Speaker 1: So when one time he went to Australia, he goes, Dad, 1006 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:17,960 Speaker 1: look at this ant. It jumps and he had it 1007 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:19,440 Speaker 1: on a stick, you know, and he was showing it 1008 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:21,359 Speaker 1: to me, and I was like, oh, here, so let 1009 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:23,000 Speaker 1: me see that aunt. You know, like you can put 1010 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:24,600 Speaker 1: an ant on your finger, and I put it on 1011 00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,280 Speaker 1: my fingers. As soon as I put on my finger, poom, 1012 00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,920 Speaker 1: it stung me like a hammer had hit me, you know. 1013 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,520 Speaker 1: And I was like ah and he was like, yeah, Dad, 1014 00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,239 Speaker 1: I knew that was like a bad aunt, you know. 1015 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,799 Speaker 1: And uh So he was really well aware of what 1016 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,160 Speaker 1: was dangerous and what was not because he'd been he'd 1017 00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,320 Speaker 1: grown up in the tropics, and he that's part of 1018 00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:43,920 Speaker 1: the reason he was risk averse, because a lot of 1019 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:45,719 Speaker 1: the things that are really cool in the tropics, like 1020 00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:49,520 Speaker 1: colorful things especially, can be nasty. So based off of that, 1021 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:54,640 Speaker 1: did you whittle your email down eventually to like, just 1022 00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,719 Speaker 1: don't do it because I don't like it in your head. 1023 00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,439 Speaker 1: I didn't. I whittled the email down to, hey, watch 1024 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:04,040 Speaker 1: out for ferti lances and bushmasters and you know, be careful. 1025 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,040 Speaker 1: And I sent I sent it away, and I didn't 1026 00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:08,799 Speaker 1: tell him not to do it. I couldn't, you know, 1027 00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:10,840 Speaker 1: how could I? You know, it was his trip and 1028 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,080 Speaker 1: he came back and it was like, you know, an 1029 00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,600 Speaker 1: amazing experience from he wrote me like the six thousand 1030 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:20,359 Speaker 1: word you know, story about it and m and I 1031 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:21,960 Speaker 1: was super proud of him. I sent it to all 1032 00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:23,919 Speaker 1: my friends, you know, like wow, look what he did. 1033 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,839 Speaker 1: And um. And then he did some even more like 1034 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:30,760 Speaker 1: amazing trips you know that were amazing in different ways. 1035 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,399 Speaker 1: Like he he went down this river in Honduras through 1036 00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:37,000 Speaker 1: what he called like the cocaine hub of Central America, 1037 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:40,759 Speaker 1: because like what happened is, you know, the Americans disrupted 1038 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:45,440 Speaker 1: the typical cocaine trafficking route from Colombia. So the Colombians 1039 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,600 Speaker 1: changed it up and they sent it across sort of 1040 00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,480 Speaker 1: the southern Caribbean to this part of Honduras, like the 1041 00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,600 Speaker 1: Mosquito coast, and then they ran it across Honduras up 1042 00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:57,160 Speaker 1: these rivers and then into guatemal and then it went 1043 00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:01,280 Speaker 1: overland into Mexico. And so the river is where it all. 1044 00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,040 Speaker 1: All the cocaine trade goes through, so um or transport, 1045 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,840 Speaker 1: and he went down that river with this Canadian and 1046 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:09,839 Speaker 1: I had no idea that that stuff was going on. 1047 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,239 Speaker 1: You know, he didn't tell me about that. He just said, Oh, 1048 00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,319 Speaker 1: I'm going through this biosphere reserve and it's a big 1049 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,160 Speaker 1: wilderness area. But because it's a wilderness area, it's also 1050 00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:22,240 Speaker 1: a good place for you know outlaws too. So anyway, 1051 00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,120 Speaker 1: he had like all these really you know, wild and 1052 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:29,480 Speaker 1: crazy experiences that he told me about afterwards. Usually you know, 1053 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:31,200 Speaker 1: he'd said, I'm gonna go do this, Like he said, Hey, 1054 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,919 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go down the Patuca River through the Mosquetilla 1055 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,279 Speaker 1: and and then he sent this email about what it 1056 00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,839 Speaker 1: was like when he came back. So when he went 1057 00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:43,839 Speaker 1: missing in Costa Rica, I went down there up. Hold 1058 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,239 Speaker 1: that thought from me because the trip that he went 1059 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,879 Speaker 1: missing on, Um were there red flags in your mind 1060 00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,360 Speaker 1: about that trip? Well, I didn't really know he was 1061 00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:57,040 Speaker 1: heading on that. Like what happened there is um it 1062 00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:58,640 Speaker 1: was in the summer, and in the summer you know, 1063 00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:01,400 Speaker 1: I'm I'm kind of busy doing stuff, and he was 1064 00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,640 Speaker 1: communicating with us and and he and I he'd asked 1065 00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:06,799 Speaker 1: me about like maps, Hey, Dad, do you have any 1066 00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,200 Speaker 1: secret sources for good topo maps? Because I think he 1067 00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:12,560 Speaker 1: you know, I kind of knew maybe he'd mentioned it 1068 00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:14,319 Speaker 1: or we talked about but I I sort of thought 1069 00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:16,719 Speaker 1: he wanted it to cross the Darian Gap, you know, 1070 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,040 Speaker 1: in the highway, which is sort of you know, like 1071 00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:21,319 Speaker 1: I think we all want to do it, but none 1072 00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,839 Speaker 1: of us really should do it. And um, and I had, 1073 00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:25,719 Speaker 1: you know, I think I would have told him, don't 1074 00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:28,759 Speaker 1: do it. But I was sort of I don't want 1075 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:30,840 Speaker 1: to say I was pleased that he was thinking about it, 1076 00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,239 Speaker 1: but I don't know, you know, like you kind of 1077 00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,319 Speaker 1: rooting him on in a way. I guess I kind 1078 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:37,879 Speaker 1: of was. And I, you know, I I sent him 1079 00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,920 Speaker 1: some map ideas, you know, even though it wasn't specifically 1080 00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:44,200 Speaker 1: about the Darian and uh. And so anyway, we we 1081 00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,239 Speaker 1: were talking back and forth about maps, and I came 1082 00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:49,680 Speaker 1: back from a pack rafting trip in the Tachita Mountains, 1083 00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,440 Speaker 1: and you know, there was an email there it was like, 1084 00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:54,239 Speaker 1: you know, the best map yet. So I just thought 1085 00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,880 Speaker 1: it was about maps, and I took off because Peggy, 1086 00:50:58,040 --> 00:50:59,799 Speaker 1: my wife, was like, hey, you've been gone. You know. 1087 00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:01,600 Speaker 1: We had to go dipping out some salmon. This is 1088 00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,120 Speaker 1: the time when all the salminar and let's go. So 1089 00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:07,080 Speaker 1: we went down to the Kenye and UM had some 1090 00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,640 Speaker 1: house projects. When I got back and we hadn't heard 1091 00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:11,399 Speaker 1: We didn't hear from him, you know, and I kept 1092 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,799 Speaker 1: expecting to hear from him, but I hadn't really read 1093 00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,239 Speaker 1: the email, you know, like I really I still feel 1094 00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:19,160 Speaker 1: guilty about that, and I didn't really read it through 1095 00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:22,960 Speaker 1: when I should have. And when we got back, and 1096 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,520 Speaker 1: you know, we were in Lows shopping for something to 1097 00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,200 Speaker 1: work on the house, and Peggy got nauseated. We were 1098 00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:30,799 Speaker 1: talking like, hey, haven't why I haven't heard from Rom 1099 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:32,080 Speaker 1: and she got nause and we went home and I 1100 00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,200 Speaker 1: read this email and it was like, you know, holy 1101 00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:39,680 Speaker 1: can I say on him? Holy ship? I read the 1102 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:41,920 Speaker 1: email and he you know, he was supposed to have 1103 00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:44,680 Speaker 1: been back like ten days before, you know, and I 1104 00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,880 Speaker 1: just felt awful that I hadn't looked and I felt 1105 00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,719 Speaker 1: even worse, like he's he's missing. I haven't heard from 1106 00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:52,040 Speaker 1: We should have heard from me he was only going 1107 00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:56,560 Speaker 1: to be in there for like five days. A five 1108 00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:00,360 Speaker 1: day trip would was definitely abnormal for sure. Yeah, I 1109 00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,120 Speaker 1: mean he he would that would never. It would be 1110 00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,520 Speaker 1: way out of the ordinary. You know. He usually like 1111 00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,640 Speaker 1: when he came back from that crossing in Guatemala, you know, 1112 00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:10,239 Speaker 1: he says, hey, I just got out. I'll tell you 1113 00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:12,439 Speaker 1: more later, just to let us know, because you guys 1114 00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:14,520 Speaker 1: had a little bit of a protocol just from your 1115 00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:20,760 Speaker 1: experiences too, about sort of the importance of your outdate. Yeah, 1116 00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:22,880 Speaker 1: he grew up with that. You know, he grew up 1117 00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,920 Speaker 1: with like being we would always responsible. You know, I 1118 00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:27,719 Speaker 1: didn't want to freak my wife. I had a wife 1119 00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:29,560 Speaker 1: and kid at home. I had to make sure that 1120 00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:31,839 Speaker 1: I came back when I said I was gonna come back, 1121 00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:33,759 Speaker 1: or if I didn't, they knew I would be back, 1122 00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:35,560 Speaker 1: and then we would. You know. He grew up with that, 1123 00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:37,719 Speaker 1: and he was a responsible kid about that. So he 1124 00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:40,319 Speaker 1: always let us know. So when you know he had 1125 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,719 Speaker 1: I didn't hear, I rushed down, you know, like I 1126 00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,799 Speaker 1: left the next day and uh. And so that's kind 1127 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:47,640 Speaker 1: of like the third part of that book is about 1128 00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,240 Speaker 1: looking for him down there, and and it was frustrating 1129 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,120 Speaker 1: to get down there and have all these people. He 1130 00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:55,200 Speaker 1: brought a friend down. Yeah, well I needed somebody, you know, 1131 00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,240 Speaker 1: and so I brought um tiber Zone down who speaks 1132 00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:01,000 Speaker 1: fluent Spanish and I you know, he's the kind of 1133 00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:04,960 Speaker 1: guy that you know, one time I I was going 1134 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:06,760 Speaker 1: to the him Alaya to look for these ice worms 1135 00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:10,120 Speaker 1: in the him Alaya and that my collaborator, another scientists 1136 00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:14,200 Speaker 1: couldn't go. And so my my collaborators, it was Thursday 1137 00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,000 Speaker 1: and we're supposed to leave on Sunday. And he's like, hey, 1138 00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:18,160 Speaker 1: I can't go. And I'm like, hey, Ty, can you 1139 00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,000 Speaker 1: go to China next week? And He's like sure when 1140 00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:23,960 Speaker 1: you know and uh. And so Ty was the kind 1141 00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,120 Speaker 1: of guy he could drop everything. Like at one point, 1142 00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:32,920 Speaker 1: Ty went to every continent every year, you know, and 1143 00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:35,400 Speaker 1: and every continent. He went to every continent he was 1144 00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,720 Speaker 1: paid to go, you know, like he was a guide, 1145 00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,759 Speaker 1: or he was um doing logistics in that Arctica, or 1146 00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,120 Speaker 1: he was doing medicine in Africa. You know, he was 1147 00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,560 Speaker 1: that kind of guy. And he he his his mom 1148 00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:50,120 Speaker 1: is is Vietnamese and his dad is Italian, and so 1149 00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:52,520 Speaker 1: he looks like he's from anywhere, you know, and he's 1150 00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:56,040 Speaker 1: got a big smile. He's real gregarious, and you know, 1151 00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:59,239 Speaker 1: he's super strong, but he's kind of you know, I 1152 00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:01,719 Speaker 1: don't know. He just looked like you would like him. 1153 00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:03,200 Speaker 1: You know, if he was here, we would all like 1154 00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:06,640 Speaker 1: him immediately. So I needed him with me because I'm 1155 00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:08,800 Speaker 1: not the kind of guy people usually like right away 1156 00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:10,960 Speaker 1: wherever for that matter, I don't know, but he is, 1157 00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:13,640 Speaker 1: and so I needed him to come. And he we 1158 00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:16,160 Speaker 1: went down there, and he has jungle experience, and we've 1159 00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,560 Speaker 1: done a lot of stuff together. And your initial impulse 1160 00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:23,960 Speaker 1: was to go where you now understood that he went. Yeah, 1161 00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:27,319 Speaker 1: and just like like physically look for him, like look 1162 00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:32,239 Speaker 1: around to find him a long route. Well, yeah, well 1163 00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,360 Speaker 1: he told me where he was going. He sent a map, 1164 00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:36,399 Speaker 1: you know. He said, I'm gonna go up this river 1165 00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,120 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna go out this river. It's gonna take 1166 00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:41,200 Speaker 1: five days. He was very specific, and and I took 1167 00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:44,640 Speaker 1: that as I mean, I would send somebody that, and 1168 00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:47,640 Speaker 1: I have, you know, for forty years, I've sent people 1169 00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:49,640 Speaker 1: that kind of thing, because hey, look, if I don't 1170 00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:52,399 Speaker 1: show up, come get me. If I'm not here by 1171 00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,239 Speaker 1: this day, come get me. You know, you know, officials 1172 00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:58,560 Speaker 1: down there though, we're no. They just thought he was 1173 00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,400 Speaker 1: some kid who was you know, ran off. Yeah, like 1174 00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:04,399 Speaker 1: the backpackers we were talking about earlier, who traveled through 1175 00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,480 Speaker 1: Central America and you know, hang out at the hostel 1176 00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:10,319 Speaker 1: and smoked cigarettes and talk about how they'd like to 1177 00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,200 Speaker 1: do stuff, but they don't do anything, you know, And 1178 00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:16,440 Speaker 1: so they just thought he was you know, hanging out 1179 00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,760 Speaker 1: with a drug dealer and uh or his just ignoring 1180 00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:21,680 Speaker 1: his parents. You know, none of that added up. So 1181 00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:25,160 Speaker 1: it was very frustrating to me, who had had spent 1182 00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:26,920 Speaker 1: this life. So I wrote this because you're just another 1183 00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:31,320 Speaker 1: You're just another parent who thinks their kids an angel, exactly, 1184 00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:34,560 Speaker 1: and you just clearly can't see that he whatever, ran 1185 00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,200 Speaker 1: off of the girl. That's it. It's exactly. Yeah. And 1186 00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:40,600 Speaker 1: I it was really painful, I mean to like sort 1187 00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:42,960 Speaker 1: of first of all, to have my son missing, you know, 1188 00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:46,239 Speaker 1: and it's like I've spent you know, more than half 1189 00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:48,799 Speaker 1: my life and his whole life doing stuff with him, 1190 00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:51,400 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And I like just playing cards, 1191 00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,480 Speaker 1: you know, or chess or watching TV, you know what 1192 00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:57,400 Speaker 1: I mean, but kind of the stuff that really bonds us. 1193 00:55:57,440 --> 00:55:59,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's part of what like hunt, 1194 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,240 Speaker 1: seeing or being outdoors really bonds us in a really 1195 00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,759 Speaker 1: very deeply human way, and especially with your kids, you know, 1196 00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,799 Speaker 1: or your wife and your friends and so um. It 1197 00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:12,080 Speaker 1: was just like it was a real insult to this 1198 00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:14,200 Speaker 1: injury of loss to lose my son and then have 1199 00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:17,080 Speaker 1: people tell me like I didn't know him or this 1200 00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:19,040 Speaker 1: is what he was doing, and and so the book 1201 00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:20,839 Speaker 1: is a lot about that, you know what I mean 1202 00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:23,799 Speaker 1: for sure, it's it's like that's like one of the 1203 00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,120 Speaker 1: aching parts about it. You know, you spent a lot 1204 00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:28,600 Speaker 1: of time on this. I don't want I don't we 1205 00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:29,880 Speaker 1: don't need to spend a ton of time on it 1206 00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:33,799 Speaker 1: right now, but like I want to get to how 1207 00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,719 Speaker 1: you actually searched, but try to explain to people like 1208 00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:43,680 Speaker 1: the false lead that emerges, you mean, the potala, which 1209 00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:47,920 Speaker 1: which takes months, like for months, it tooks year, it 1210 00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,080 Speaker 1: took years. Take at that point where people are like, 1211 00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:53,759 Speaker 1: this is what happened, and and you're like that that's 1212 00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:55,719 Speaker 1: not what happened. But it was like, why can't this 1213 00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:59,640 Speaker 1: guy see that this is what happened, But explain this guy, well, 1214 00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,279 Speaker 1: he's sort of he was like the pariah of the 1215 00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:05,960 Speaker 1: Ossa Peninsula. So the Osa Peninsula is like this elbow 1216 00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,840 Speaker 1: that sticks out in southern Coasta Rica on the Pacific 1217 00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:12,040 Speaker 1: side near the border with Panama. And it's a pretty 1218 00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:14,680 Speaker 1: it's you know, it's a pretty rural and area. Very 1219 00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:16,840 Speaker 1: wild too. There's the biggest national park. I think it's 1220 00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:19,520 Speaker 1: the biggest national park in Coasta Rica. Corcovado National Park 1221 00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:22,760 Speaker 1: is there. Like it's wild enough where there's like like 1222 00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:26,440 Speaker 1: illegal gold miners. Yeah, it's totally wild setting up camps 1223 00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:27,920 Speaker 1: that no one knows about. Yeah. Well, you know, it's 1224 00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:31,480 Speaker 1: wild enough to have jaguars and bush masters and herpie eagles, 1225 00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:34,040 Speaker 1: you know, and all the monkeys that people like living 1226 00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:36,120 Speaker 1: out there that no one knows about. Right and then 1227 00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:38,040 Speaker 1: and then it's so big and and it used it's 1228 00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:40,680 Speaker 1: got gold miners who like hang out in the park 1229 00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:44,160 Speaker 1: and they hide out and the rangers go in and 1230 00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:46,680 Speaker 1: and and then the west coast of the park. Um, 1231 00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:48,200 Speaker 1: you know, used to be able to hike around there, 1232 00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:49,800 Speaker 1: and the west coast was a great place to hike. 1233 00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:52,000 Speaker 1: But I think there's a lot of cocaine boats that 1234 00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:54,840 Speaker 1: come up and bring drugs from Panama now and they've 1235 00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:57,040 Speaker 1: they've shut all the hiking down on the west coast 1236 00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,560 Speaker 1: along the beach basically north of sir Aino, which is 1237 00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:03,920 Speaker 1: the most touristic part. And it's it's really a remote 1238 00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:05,720 Speaker 1: You can't drive into the park. You have to hike 1239 00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:07,960 Speaker 1: into it. And now they don't let you hike there 1240 00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:09,920 Speaker 1: without having a guide, and they only let you hike 1241 00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:12,920 Speaker 1: on certain trails. And the rangers go in there and 1242 00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:15,200 Speaker 1: they chase the miners out, and they change chase the 1243 00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:18,440 Speaker 1: poachers out and um. And then there's this out just 1244 00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:22,560 Speaker 1: outside the park. There's a big mining community. But it's 1245 00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:24,960 Speaker 1: all it's all like hike in mine, like I don't know, 1246 00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:28,960 Speaker 1: backcountry mining, Like it's hand back Yeah, I got all. 1247 00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:31,040 Speaker 1: They hike in and their sluice boxes they are like 1248 00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:34,200 Speaker 1: three ft long, and there their shovels or metal shovels, 1249 00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:37,919 Speaker 1: but they've whittled some piece of hardwood down to stick 1250 00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:40,320 Speaker 1: into the shovel. When it handles break, they just make 1251 00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:44,760 Speaker 1: a new one. And they live in these plastic you know, tarps, 1252 00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:48,960 Speaker 1: and they're they're running water is through plastic pipes that 1253 00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,760 Speaker 1: they use to kind of drain areas to mind for 1254 00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:57,640 Speaker 1: it's all by hand, you know. And uh so anyway, Um, 1255 00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:00,760 Speaker 1: there's this one mining trail that goes from one mining 1256 00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:04,800 Speaker 1: community all the way to the coast, and everybody thought 1257 00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:09,000 Speaker 1: that they'd seen my son with this guy pot Laura 1258 00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:12,720 Speaker 1: and his name Potalora's. It was like his nickname for 1259 00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:15,080 Speaker 1: parrot foot, because he had like a deformity of his foot, 1260 00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:19,240 Speaker 1: and nobody liked him, and he nobody liked him, and 1261 00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:22,400 Speaker 1: he was the pariah of those you know, and anything 1262 00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:25,000 Speaker 1: that bad that happened, they blamed it on him. Even 1263 00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:28,400 Speaker 1: his own family didn't like him. And so he was 1264 00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:32,360 Speaker 1: with this gringo who apparently looked like my son, and 1265 00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:34,960 Speaker 1: everybody was sure that my son had been with him. 1266 00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:38,640 Speaker 1: And uh, and he didn't do a whole hell of 1267 00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:40,480 Speaker 1: a lot to dispel the notion that he had been 1268 00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:43,160 Speaker 1: with your son. Oh no, he encouraged it. Yeah, he 1269 00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:45,640 Speaker 1: fed it. He came up, he spun all these stories. 1270 00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:48,040 Speaker 1: I don't want to tell too much because my publisher 1271 00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:50,080 Speaker 1: will want somebody to buy the book. And if I 1272 00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:51,800 Speaker 1: tell you the whole story, nobody will want to read it. 1273 00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:56,479 Speaker 1: But um, but is not true. If I tell the story, 1274 00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:58,680 Speaker 1: nobody will want to read it. I don't think that 1275 00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:06,880 Speaker 1: that's true. Maybe the page one yeah, well, the Podalora story, 1276 01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:09,040 Speaker 1: it just it never went away, you know, like right 1277 01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:12,880 Speaker 1: up to the end, it never went away. And uh 1278 01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:15,680 Speaker 1: and I just I just couldn't see Roman like walking 1279 01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,280 Speaker 1: with this guy, you know, like it would be I 1280 01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:20,280 Speaker 1: think I used the phrase in the book, it would 1281 01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:23,160 Speaker 1: be like this guy because I talked, I interview people, 1282 01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:26,280 Speaker 1: you know, I followed the Potalora troil, you know, I 1283 01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:28,240 Speaker 1: I talked to the people. I mean, I hiked into 1284 01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:31,200 Speaker 1: the jungle. I spent like weeks in the jungle, you 1285 01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:33,120 Speaker 1: know what I mean. I hiked all around like I 1286 01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:39,320 Speaker 1: you know, illegally eventually legally. Yeah, that's everything I wanted 1287 01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:43,040 Speaker 1: to bring up that you wanted to go in. And Okay, 1288 01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:46,600 Speaker 1: so the book gets into spends a lot of time 1289 01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:49,919 Speaker 1: on all the what everyone else is telling you must 1290 01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:55,520 Speaker 1: have happened. Yeah, and you needing to be the like 1291 01:00:55,760 --> 01:01:01,000 Speaker 1: naive rube who insists that you're right while everyone else 1292 01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:03,600 Speaker 1: is behind your back, probably saying like this guy has 1293 01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:05,760 Speaker 1: no idea. Probably, yeah for sure. But I mean, like 1294 01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:08,000 Speaker 1: I knew my son, you know, and I can't get 1295 01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:10,040 Speaker 1: his bank records. I couldn't get it took us two 1296 01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:12,440 Speaker 1: years to get his bank records. But I you know, 1297 01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:14,440 Speaker 1: I knew my son, and I've been in the jungle 1298 01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:17,080 Speaker 1: enough to know that I could look, and I wanted 1299 01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:19,040 Speaker 1: people to help me, and so the only people I 1300 01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:21,120 Speaker 1: could really get to help me because the officials did 1301 01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:23,240 Speaker 1: everything they could to keep me out. Yeah that's what 1302 01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:26,440 Speaker 1: That's what I was gonna ask you about his. They 1303 01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:31,560 Speaker 1: literally forbid you, threatened me, threatened to arrest me to 1304 01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:36,560 Speaker 1: go forbid you, Um, you cannot go look for your son. Yeah, 1305 01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:38,840 Speaker 1: that's pretty much what they said. Yeah, you know, And 1306 01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:41,520 Speaker 1: I went down there to look for his months long, Yeah, 1307 01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:43,800 Speaker 1: for yeah, months, And I went down there specifically to 1308 01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:45,880 Speaker 1: look for him, Like I have to go out on 1309 01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:49,280 Speaker 1: illegal minor trails sometimes with illegal miners to try to 1310 01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:51,200 Speaker 1: find your way in there to look around. Right, Why, 1311 01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:53,000 Speaker 1: I they knew it much better than I did, So 1312 01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:56,600 Speaker 1: I I got miners and poachers to help me out, 1313 01:01:56,800 --> 01:01:59,760 Speaker 1: you know, because nobody else that the officials wouldn't and 1314 01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:02,960 Speaker 1: under Yeah you're under threat of arrest. Yeah, I mean 1315 01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:04,640 Speaker 1: that one. I remember one time I had like this 1316 01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:06,520 Speaker 1: kind of bushy beard and I shaved it off because 1317 01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:08,160 Speaker 1: I knew they were looking for me, and I hid 1318 01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:10,640 Speaker 1: in the car, you know, I mean, um, because I 1319 01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:12,800 Speaker 1: I needed to find him, you know, and I was 1320 01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:17,640 Speaker 1: gonna do whatever it took. So I must be so frustrating. 1321 01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:21,400 Speaker 1: It's so many levels to be kept out from that. Yeah, 1322 01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:23,680 Speaker 1: I was like trying to I felt like it was 1323 01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:26,040 Speaker 1: like some kind of football game where they're trying to 1324 01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:27,960 Speaker 1: tackle me, but I'm trying to get to the end 1325 01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:30,720 Speaker 1: zone there, you know, and I the officials were trying 1326 01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:34,000 Speaker 1: to keep me from going that direction. Um, but the 1327 01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:36,520 Speaker 1: locals were really helpful, you know, like the people who 1328 01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:40,120 Speaker 1: lived there, and they're very family oriented and they understood, 1329 01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:43,200 Speaker 1: you know, what I was trying to do. And uh, 1330 01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:45,760 Speaker 1: and my friends you know, came down and helped me. 1331 01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:49,080 Speaker 1: But then they'd come down and I realized how dangerous, 1332 01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:51,680 Speaker 1: dangerous it was to have people who didn't have any 1333 01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:54,240 Speaker 1: experience in the jungle and have them with me, you know, 1334 01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:58,360 Speaker 1: because there's snakes. And I mean it sounds cliche to say, oh, 1335 01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:01,959 Speaker 1: there's snakes, but there really are snakes, you know, like yeah, 1336 01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:03,880 Speaker 1: there it's full on, you know, like you should you 1337 01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:05,480 Speaker 1: get hit and you're gonna like you got an hour, 1338 01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:08,320 Speaker 1: you're gonna be dead basically. Yeah, And you know you're 1339 01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:10,080 Speaker 1: a couple of hours in and you're they're not gonna 1340 01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:12,440 Speaker 1: get a helicopter in there. And there's like three snakes 1341 01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:14,160 Speaker 1: you kind of have to really watch out for. There's 1342 01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:16,880 Speaker 1: you know, the palm vipers that hang kind of like 1343 01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:19,200 Speaker 1: right at eye level and you don't see them, you know. 1344 01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:22,440 Speaker 1: And this kid came down. I really like this kid, Todd. 1345 01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:25,200 Speaker 1: He came down to help, and he almost walked into one. 1346 01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:27,640 Speaker 1: He did, he walked literally and he almost got hit. 1347 01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:31,560 Speaker 1: Um tivers oone. He stepped over a log and there 1348 01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:33,840 Speaker 1: was a palm viper coiled up on the log. He 1349 01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:35,600 Speaker 1: didn't see it. I saw it when I walked up 1350 01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:38,240 Speaker 1: to the log, and I was like, holy cow, I 1351 01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:40,720 Speaker 1: can't bring my friends down here. This is too dangerous. 1352 01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:42,520 Speaker 1: You know. Then there's fairtal answers. Those are the ones 1353 01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:45,400 Speaker 1: that are definitely poisonous. And I never saw a bush master, 1354 01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:48,360 Speaker 1: but they're the really bad ones. And you know, it's 1355 01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:52,040 Speaker 1: just it was dangerous, you know. And I I could 1356 01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:55,320 Speaker 1: see why they didn't want me in there, but um, 1357 01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:57,400 Speaker 1: and they didn't know me, you know, like I had 1358 01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:01,880 Speaker 1: to get you know, the Lieutenant governor of Alaska tore like, 1359 01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:03,600 Speaker 1: who does know me? To write a letter and say no, 1360 01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:05,959 Speaker 1: you Roman, Diald knows what he's doing. You know, he's 1361 01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:11,880 Speaker 1: been around, you know, you can you can trust his judgment. Um. 1362 01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:14,160 Speaker 1: But you know, they wanted to protect me. They didn't 1363 01:04:14,160 --> 01:04:15,880 Speaker 1: want me to get into trouble. And I could see 1364 01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:18,360 Speaker 1: their side, but but the other side of me, there 1365 01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:20,240 Speaker 1: there's no stopping me. You know, I was going to 1366 01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:22,680 Speaker 1: do whatever it took, and I you know, I had 1367 01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:26,360 Speaker 1: to sell my soldier reality TV eventually, you know, I 1368 01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:28,800 Speaker 1: didn't know it was reality TV, but it turned into 1369 01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:32,520 Speaker 1: reality TV. Yeah. I'll ask about that in a second. 1370 01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:36,880 Speaker 1: But another thing I wanted to touch on is you, Um, 1371 01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:39,400 Speaker 1: initially you felt like there was like a race against 1372 01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:46,440 Speaker 1: the clocks. Yeah. No, I pictured him. He was like 1373 01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:48,000 Speaker 1: I could see him in the tent and it was 1374 01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:50,080 Speaker 1: all soggy and wet and cold because the rainforest is 1375 01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:52,880 Speaker 1: actually cold, especially here you're in the mountains, and when 1376 01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:55,160 Speaker 1: it rains, you know, the rains coming from thirty thousand 1377 01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:57,880 Speaker 1: feet up, so it's cold, comes down and chills you. 1378 01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:00,120 Speaker 1: And I could see him like in this tent. He 1379 01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:03,000 Speaker 1: was broken and hey dad, where are you? I'm out 1380 01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:05,480 Speaker 1: of food. That's what went through my head. And so 1381 01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:07,439 Speaker 1: I was trying to find him, and people were trying 1382 01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:10,240 Speaker 1: to keep me out. You know it was it was terrible. Yeah, 1383 01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:12,920 Speaker 1: it was terrible. Do you I don't think forgiving if 1384 01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:15,400 Speaker 1: you bring this up in your book, but some of 1385 01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:17,960 Speaker 1: the local response to you, did you ever get a 1386 01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:21,440 Speaker 1: sense that it was just like another view of American exceptionalism, 1387 01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:24,640 Speaker 1: where you have this place where, no doubt many many 1388 01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:29,960 Speaker 1: people go missing because of drug trafficking, because of you know, 1389 01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:35,840 Speaker 1: human migration, because of whatever reason. But then everyone needs 1390 01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:39,360 Speaker 1: to drop everything and get everyone on board because an 1391 01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:41,480 Speaker 1: American is missing. No. I never felt that, and I 1392 01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:43,120 Speaker 1: never asked for that, you know what I mean. Like 1393 01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:45,920 Speaker 1: I didn't ask for the helicopter. I didn't ask for 1394 01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:48,000 Speaker 1: the whole army of Red Cross people. I would have 1395 01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:50,800 Speaker 1: done it myself. I would have preferred if they would 1396 01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:52,840 Speaker 1: just like, let me do this. Like here's the way 1397 01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:55,720 Speaker 1: I sort of feel is um and this is maybe 1398 01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:58,840 Speaker 1: a little too libertarian for most people. But to be 1399 01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:02,320 Speaker 1: part of society, we've had to give up everything. Okay, 1400 01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:04,800 Speaker 1: Like society is great, but we don't get to take 1401 01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:07,040 Speaker 1: care of ourselves. You get a doctor to take care 1402 01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:09,320 Speaker 1: of you, there's no justice. We don't take care of 1403 01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:11,920 Speaker 1: our own justice. We have a justice system that takes 1404 01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:14,240 Speaker 1: care of that. We don't get rid of. If if 1405 01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:16,360 Speaker 1: somebody is breaking into your house, you can't do anything 1406 01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:18,520 Speaker 1: about that. You've got to call the police. You don't 1407 01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:21,000 Speaker 1: do anything for ourselves. It's all we get to do 1408 01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:23,160 Speaker 1: is put food in our mouths. Now maybe you know, 1409 01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:26,800 Speaker 1: and maybe we can reproduce the letter whom I defend myself. Yeah, 1410 01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:29,480 Speaker 1: and so the authorities. That's it, That's what it comes 1411 01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:32,360 Speaker 1: down to. So to be part of society, we've given 1412 01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:36,160 Speaker 1: up all these things that when we were like primitive humans, 1413 01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:38,320 Speaker 1: we did ourselves. You know, like we don't even like 1414 01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:41,240 Speaker 1: build your house anymore. You have somebody else build your house. 1415 01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:43,760 Speaker 1: You know. We don't really get to do much. And 1416 01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:47,240 Speaker 1: so this seems really important to me, is to take 1417 01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:49,520 Speaker 1: care of my family member, you know, But we don't 1418 01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:52,800 Speaker 1: get to do that. No, we have specialized teams who 1419 01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:54,600 Speaker 1: are going to do that, but they're never going to 1420 01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:57,480 Speaker 1: be as invested in it as as as we are. 1421 01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:04,200 Speaker 1: Uh follow a rail right, a wounded animal trail. I 1422 01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:07,960 Speaker 1: don't want anybody else out there messing with the evidence, 1423 01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:10,880 Speaker 1: and I want to be the one collecting it and 1424 01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:15,439 Speaker 1: processing it. And again nobody's more invested in the person 1425 01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:17,800 Speaker 1: that sent the bullet or the arrow. Right, were you 1426 01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:20,440 Speaker 1: feeling any of that? Like, if I involve a lot 1427 01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:24,520 Speaker 1: of people, then I'm gonna miss critical information and I 1428 01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:28,360 Speaker 1: may be the best person to decipher that. Absolutely, that's 1429 01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:30,280 Speaker 1: that's I think that's a really good analogy. That's kind 1430 01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:33,320 Speaker 1: of how I felt. But I know, I maybe I 1431 01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:35,200 Speaker 1: was just too emotional about it, you know what I mean, 1432 01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:36,840 Speaker 1: And I should have just got out of the way, 1433 01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:39,040 Speaker 1: but there was no way I was going to. Yeah, 1434 01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:41,680 Speaker 1: and it was a there's an enormous amount of variables 1435 01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:47,360 Speaker 1: where um, you can't you're not able to rule out 1436 01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:51,600 Speaker 1: foul play. So you're trying to get into the jungle. Look, 1437 01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:54,800 Speaker 1: but you're also looking at everyone you walk by, and 1438 01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:59,720 Speaker 1: everyone's backpack. You're curious about what are their shoes, and 1439 01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:03,120 Speaker 1: you know what gear your son had, and you're trying 1440 01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:04,800 Speaker 1: to see, like, am I going to see someone come 1441 01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:07,400 Speaker 1: by with a pair of Solomon shoes on? Oh? And 1442 01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:09,280 Speaker 1: then the long guy was on the oath of the 1443 01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:12,520 Speaker 1: more you heard about these stories, you know, like the 1444 01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:16,200 Speaker 1: Austrians who lived in this little town and sold gold, 1445 01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:20,280 Speaker 1: and how they had been killed. They disappeared, but there 1446 01:08:20,360 --> 01:08:23,320 Speaker 1: was blood on their walls and and somebody was driving 1447 01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:25,840 Speaker 1: their car around and using their A t M card 1448 01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:28,800 Speaker 1: and but they never found a body until years later 1449 01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:31,800 Speaker 1: when bones washed out. And then there was the Canadian 1450 01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:34,160 Speaker 1: woman who was shot in the head and they didn't 1451 01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:36,040 Speaker 1: have any idea who did that. And then there was 1452 01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:39,000 Speaker 1: another woman, an American who was smothered in her bed, 1453 01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:43,000 Speaker 1: you know, in an iPod or iPad were stolen, and 1454 01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:45,559 Speaker 1: so you heard about these things along you were there, 1455 01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:47,800 Speaker 1: and then you'd hear about this guy Patalora who some 1456 01:08:47,840 --> 01:08:50,439 Speaker 1: people would say, oh, yeah, he's a murderer, he's killed people, 1457 01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:54,240 Speaker 1: he killed your son and blah blah blah, and and 1458 01:08:54,280 --> 01:08:56,400 Speaker 1: there I mean it is, it's kind of a lawless place. 1459 01:08:56,520 --> 01:09:00,760 Speaker 1: And uh and if there's nobody and there's nobody, and yeah, 1460 01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:03,920 Speaker 1: they don't they don't they like you could, no matter 1461 01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:06,639 Speaker 1: what happens, exists with out of body, there's no murder. Yeah, 1462 01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:09,200 Speaker 1: like those Austrians. They everybody knew who did it because 1463 01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:11,479 Speaker 1: he was driving their car around and spending their A 1464 01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:13,760 Speaker 1: t M money and they knew that he had done it. 1465 01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:16,160 Speaker 1: But until they found this body two years later, the 1466 01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:19,839 Speaker 1: bones that had washed out of this river bank. Um, 1467 01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:23,040 Speaker 1: then they realized, okay, yep, you're the one. There's a body. Yeah, 1468 01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:26,439 Speaker 1: so you even go arrange and meet with the guy 1469 01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:30,080 Speaker 1: who's claiming to have been one of the last people 1470 01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:33,479 Speaker 1: to see your son alive. Right. Well, I was eager 1471 01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:36,439 Speaker 1: to meet the guy who his name was Jenkins. And 1472 01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:38,479 Speaker 1: I was eager to meet him because when early on 1473 01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:40,920 Speaker 1: in the search, um, when they'd kicked me out of 1474 01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:46,080 Speaker 1: the search because I was emotionally unstable as what they said, Um, 1475 01:09:47,080 --> 01:09:49,800 Speaker 1: were you looking back now? No, I was, and I 1476 01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:52,240 Speaker 1: was very calm, you know. It was the guy who 1477 01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:54,720 Speaker 1: was in charge of the search was emotionally unstable from 1478 01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:59,400 Speaker 1: my perspective, and he just didn't He just didn't, you know, Um, 1479 01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:04,360 Speaker 1: maybe like you know, I this friend, this mutual friend 1480 01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:07,040 Speaker 1: I have with your brother named Chris. You know. He 1481 01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:09,920 Speaker 1: he'll complain that I have a Type A personality whatever 1482 01:10:09,960 --> 01:10:12,080 Speaker 1: that is exactly. But I said that you do, yeah, 1483 01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:14,600 Speaker 1: and I guess I guess what that means. Maybe he 1484 01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:16,280 Speaker 1: doesn't know I have a Type A is what he says. 1485 01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:19,840 Speaker 1: So when we get together with another pilot, he is 1486 01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:22,240 Speaker 1: a pilot. So when Type A is get together, there's 1487 01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:25,200 Speaker 1: not enough oxygen in the room to breathe, you know. 1488 01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:27,600 Speaker 1: And so a lot of these guys who are in 1489 01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:31,400 Speaker 1: charge of things are type A, like a pilot, and 1490 01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:33,719 Speaker 1: so the guy in charge of the search was type 1491 01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:35,599 Speaker 1: and there I was, you know, like, no, we've got 1492 01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:37,519 Speaker 1: to do what my son said. And he's like, hey, 1493 01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:40,479 Speaker 1: you know, I'm in charge here, and he pushed me out, 1494 01:10:40,720 --> 01:10:42,960 Speaker 1: and I was very calm because I've been in some 1495 01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:46,280 Speaker 1: sketchy situations, you know, I've been in I don't know, 1496 01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:48,360 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to brag here or anything. I'm just 1497 01:10:48,400 --> 01:10:51,880 Speaker 1: trying to say that I know that when things are bad, 1498 01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:53,519 Speaker 1: you've got to be calm, you know what I mean. 1499 01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:56,120 Speaker 1: And you've been on searches. I've been on searches, yea. 1500 01:10:56,200 --> 01:10:58,320 Speaker 1: I found people. That's why I thought I could find 1501 01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:02,000 Speaker 1: my son, because I've I found people before, like in storms. 1502 01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:05,000 Speaker 1: And so I was there and this guy kicked me out, 1503 01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:08,240 Speaker 1: and then um ty was I was able to I 1504 01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:10,000 Speaker 1: was able to talk his way and they walked down 1505 01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:12,400 Speaker 1: this trail and they got to this village and this 1506 01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:14,760 Speaker 1: guy said, oh, hey, I met I met somebody in 1507 01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:16,840 Speaker 1: the jungle and he said his name was Roman. And 1508 01:11:16,880 --> 01:11:18,960 Speaker 1: that's when I knew that they really this guy had 1509 01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:22,480 Speaker 1: really seen him, because everybody else called my son Cody 1510 01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:24,479 Speaker 1: because that's the name that was on the flyers. So 1511 01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:27,719 Speaker 1: the name on the on the flyers was Cody Roman 1512 01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:32,840 Speaker 1: Dial and in Costa Rica, um his middle name, you know, 1513 01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:35,879 Speaker 1: it would be like a second last name, So everybody 1514 01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:38,240 Speaker 1: had like down there in Costa Rica, the first name 1515 01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:40,080 Speaker 1: is your given name, and then the last name is 1516 01:11:40,120 --> 01:11:43,720 Speaker 1: your father's family name, and your second your middle name 1517 01:11:43,760 --> 01:11:47,559 Speaker 1: is your mother's middle name. And so everybody called my 1518 01:11:47,600 --> 01:11:51,040 Speaker 1: son Cody. Nobody called him Roman unless you've met him. 1519 01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:54,240 Speaker 1: He would say, yeah, I'm Roman. And he also kept 1520 01:11:54,280 --> 01:11:57,240 Speaker 1: secret certain pieces of gear that you knew he had, 1521 01:11:57,280 --> 01:11:59,240 Speaker 1: and other stuff like that. Oh yeah, I mean little 1522 01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:01,080 Speaker 1: things that you knew no one else news and you 1523 01:12:01,080 --> 01:12:03,360 Speaker 1: can try to sort out the bs from the reality 1524 01:12:03,479 --> 01:12:06,479 Speaker 1: exactly exactly. So when I met this guy Jenkins, who 1525 01:12:06,479 --> 01:12:07,920 Speaker 1: said he'd met Rome, and I, you know, like I 1526 01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:11,120 Speaker 1: quizzed him, and this guy's a minor, he's an illegal miner. Yeah, 1527 01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:13,439 Speaker 1: and he had great risk to himself, you know, and 1528 01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:16,360 Speaker 1: I kind of figured, yeah, if he's risking his himself 1529 01:12:16,439 --> 01:12:19,080 Speaker 1: to ton of tell this, then I know he's he's 1530 01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:22,240 Speaker 1: telling the truth. I mean, that's how we like, if 1531 01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:26,160 Speaker 1: you expose yourself or put yourself at risk, you know, 1532 01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:28,679 Speaker 1: like if you handicap yourself, that's a way of sending 1533 01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:32,200 Speaker 1: an honest message. Like there's this idea about animals with 1534 01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:34,160 Speaker 1: big horns, like like I don't know if you've ever 1535 01:12:34,200 --> 01:12:36,280 Speaker 1: seen a moose, like a big moose go through thick 1536 01:12:36,320 --> 01:12:38,320 Speaker 1: alders and they get hung up. It's a lot of work, 1537 01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:40,240 Speaker 1: you know. There's horns way a lot, and they're like 1538 01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:43,720 Speaker 1: and and there's this idea that a moose or any 1539 01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:46,320 Speaker 1: other big animal that's got big horns. It's a message 1540 01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:48,519 Speaker 1: that they send out like I'm such a badass that 1541 01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:51,200 Speaker 1: I can walk around with this huge handicap, you know 1542 01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:54,720 Speaker 1: what I mean. It's like an honest message, like I 1543 01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:56,400 Speaker 1: am a badass, and here's how I'm going to show you. 1544 01:12:56,439 --> 01:13:00,320 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna handicap myself. So for this minor come 1545 01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:02,960 Speaker 1: forward at great risk to himself, you know, it was 1546 01:13:03,320 --> 01:13:06,280 Speaker 1: he was sending an honest message because he was handicapping himself. 1547 01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:08,640 Speaker 1: He could he could be arrested for being where he was, 1548 01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:11,120 Speaker 1: and yet he came forward to say, yeah, I met 1549 01:13:11,120 --> 01:13:13,520 Speaker 1: this guy named Roman who said he was a biologist 1550 01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:17,680 Speaker 1: from Alaska, and I was like, where was that? And uh, 1551 01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:21,200 Speaker 1: I didn't ask the authorities. Hey, let's go up there tomorrow. 1552 01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:24,200 Speaker 1: I was like, you know, I went up there with 1553 01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:26,600 Speaker 1: the illegal minor and we snuck up there and I 1554 01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:29,640 Speaker 1: went up there. I got another poacher to go up 1555 01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:31,599 Speaker 1: there too, and we went up there and he showed 1556 01:13:31,680 --> 01:13:34,280 Speaker 1: us the spot. And I kept going back to that 1557 01:13:34,400 --> 01:13:38,000 Speaker 1: area and um, and then eventually even to the point 1558 01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:42,960 Speaker 1: where you guys are repelling into areas, well, yeah, I did. 1559 01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:46,919 Speaker 1: I we did a traverse across this big high plateau 1560 01:13:47,080 --> 01:13:49,920 Speaker 1: and um, and we left the plateau. We left the 1561 01:13:49,920 --> 01:13:52,640 Speaker 1: little trails like there's these trails are They're about like 1562 01:13:52,720 --> 01:13:55,360 Speaker 1: game trails. They really are there, game trails that people 1563 01:13:55,439 --> 01:13:58,320 Speaker 1: also will kind of maintain a nick with their machete 1564 01:13:58,400 --> 01:14:01,880 Speaker 1: and stuff. And and we left those little trails and 1565 01:14:01,880 --> 01:14:04,320 Speaker 1: we dropped off the plateau and it was really slippery, 1566 01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:07,360 Speaker 1: and I could see it was steep and slippery, and 1567 01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:10,320 Speaker 1: I could see, you know in Hollywood movies where like 1568 01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:14,000 Speaker 1: when somebody falls down and they slide for like five 1569 01:14:14,040 --> 01:14:15,519 Speaker 1: minutes and they end up in a creek, and that 1570 01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:18,599 Speaker 1: always seems so corny and stupid like that would never happen. 1571 01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:20,920 Speaker 1: Then I realized, oh, this is where that could happen, 1572 01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:29,479 Speaker 1: the sea, And so I was thinking that could have 1573 01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:33,360 Speaker 1: happened to him, and he could have slid into like 1574 01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:36,679 Speaker 1: where he had been seen he just climbed up out 1575 01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:40,880 Speaker 1: of this canyon and and people thought he had climbing gear, 1576 01:14:41,400 --> 01:14:43,679 Speaker 1: you know, to have made it out of there. Um, 1577 01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:46,840 Speaker 1: but he didn't. And that little canyon, I imagine maybe 1578 01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:49,080 Speaker 1: he could have slipped trying to get back in it somehow. 1579 01:14:49,120 --> 01:14:51,519 Speaker 1: And so the only way in was to repel down 1580 01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:54,360 Speaker 1: waterfalls to get into it. And I thought maybe he'd 1581 01:14:54,360 --> 01:14:56,320 Speaker 1: slipped in there. So we went down and did some 1582 01:14:56,400 --> 01:14:59,360 Speaker 1: canyonarian there was. He wasn't there, obviously, but I went 1583 01:14:59,360 --> 01:15:02,160 Speaker 1: in there looking and uh, because I thought, you know, 1584 01:15:02,280 --> 01:15:04,080 Speaker 1: he had been in this area. He I thought he 1585 01:15:04,120 --> 01:15:07,080 Speaker 1: had to be close by, So I just kept looking. 1586 01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:11,880 Speaker 1: It seems like a perfect crew to kind of know 1587 01:15:12,120 --> 01:15:15,440 Speaker 1: where where the arm is in that terrain, like poachers 1588 01:15:15,479 --> 01:15:21,080 Speaker 1: and illegal miners, as far as like everybody knows an 1589 01:15:21,120 --> 01:15:23,519 Speaker 1: area and where like, oh yeah, that would be a 1590 01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:26,240 Speaker 1: good spot for something bad to happen. This would be 1591 01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:28,880 Speaker 1: a good spot to stay out of that stuff, you know, right, 1592 01:15:28,880 --> 01:15:31,920 Speaker 1: And to be with those guys, I'd much rather be 1593 01:15:32,040 --> 01:15:35,760 Speaker 1: with them than with these you know, Red Cross volunteers 1594 01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:37,360 Speaker 1: who were all coming from the big city and they 1595 01:15:37,360 --> 01:15:40,559 Speaker 1: were you know, kind of like fleshy and pale, and 1596 01:15:40,760 --> 01:15:43,400 Speaker 1: you know, I had too much gear and had never 1597 01:15:43,439 --> 01:15:45,840 Speaker 1: been in country like that. Whereas the miners and the 1598 01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:48,479 Speaker 1: and the poachers, you know, they've got to be super 1599 01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:50,680 Speaker 1: careful because it's like they're not gonna be able to 1600 01:15:50,680 --> 01:15:53,519 Speaker 1: get a rescue from the Park Service as something happens 1601 01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:55,560 Speaker 1: to them. So the whole point with them is to 1602 01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:57,240 Speaker 1: be where no one knows where you are. Yeah, and 1603 01:15:57,280 --> 01:15:59,680 Speaker 1: they are skinny and tough, and you know, they're out 1604 01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:01,600 Speaker 1: in the on all the time. They know what to 1605 01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:03,920 Speaker 1: avoid and what you can use. And yeah, I mean 1606 01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:06,080 Speaker 1: they were like the perfect guys to be you know. 1607 01:16:06,120 --> 01:16:08,240 Speaker 1: But I it didn't matter to me who I was with. 1608 01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:10,519 Speaker 1: I just needed to get in there, and whoever was 1609 01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:11,880 Speaker 1: going to go with me, that's who I was going 1610 01:16:11,960 --> 01:16:16,240 Speaker 1: to take. Explain you met You made a remark about 1611 01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:22,599 Speaker 1: sold yourself to reality TV. Yeah, well, you know, um, 1612 01:16:23,479 --> 01:16:25,840 Speaker 1: give it whatever version of that you're comfortable with. What 1613 01:16:26,040 --> 01:16:30,800 Speaker 1: did it? Well, you know, um, what I I when 1614 01:16:30,840 --> 01:16:33,880 Speaker 1: I I mentioned those that race where Dick Griffith pulled 1615 01:16:33,880 --> 01:16:35,960 Speaker 1: a pack raft out and told me that old age 1616 01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:38,240 Speaker 1: and treachery beats youth and skill every time. And that 1617 01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:40,320 Speaker 1: was when I was twenty one, and then by the 1618 01:16:40,320 --> 01:16:44,040 Speaker 1: time I was in my thirties, those um that Eco 1619 01:16:44,160 --> 01:16:47,160 Speaker 1: Challenge race, which was a big television race that Mark Burnett, 1620 01:16:47,200 --> 01:16:50,320 Speaker 1: you know, who kind of put reality TV on the map. 1621 01:16:50,360 --> 01:16:52,280 Speaker 1: So he started the Eco Challenge and I did a 1622 01:16:52,280 --> 01:16:55,760 Speaker 1: bunch of those races, and I could see like every 1623 01:16:55,800 --> 01:16:58,720 Speaker 1: time I did one of those races, um, not every time, 1624 01:16:58,720 --> 01:17:01,320 Speaker 1: but most of the time, I was on a team 1625 01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:04,000 Speaker 1: that they watched, you know what I mean, Like they 1626 01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:06,720 Speaker 1: followed with the camera and so then i'd see the 1627 01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:09,479 Speaker 1: television show. I'm like, I wasn't there. That's not the 1628 01:17:09,560 --> 01:17:11,519 Speaker 1: race I was in, right, you know what I was like? 1629 01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:15,280 Speaker 1: This is so I was real a little really apprehensive 1630 01:17:15,280 --> 01:17:18,320 Speaker 1: about television. I've done from the science side. I've done 1631 01:17:18,360 --> 01:17:22,160 Speaker 1: some sort of documentaries you know, about tree climbing and stuff, 1632 01:17:22,160 --> 01:17:24,639 Speaker 1: and and I didn't really like TV, you know, because 1633 01:17:24,720 --> 01:17:27,439 Speaker 1: it never seemed to be Now, I'm sure your TV 1634 01:17:27,520 --> 01:17:30,200 Speaker 1: show is not like this, but I never saw like 1635 01:17:30,280 --> 01:17:32,479 Speaker 1: what I did on that show. You know, it just 1636 01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:35,080 Speaker 1: they rearranged things and they cut it up and it 1637 01:17:35,120 --> 01:17:37,439 Speaker 1: looks like reality, but it's really not. I I much 1638 01:17:37,520 --> 01:17:41,439 Speaker 1: prefer writing or radio. I don't know why. So I 1639 01:17:41,479 --> 01:17:45,439 Speaker 1: was apprehensive. I didn't want to deal with TVM. But 1640 01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:49,920 Speaker 1: somebody got through to Peggy and and uh and what 1641 01:17:49,960 --> 01:17:54,720 Speaker 1: they said is, hey, you know, I I lost my 1642 01:17:54,800 --> 01:17:57,520 Speaker 1: father and I think it was Honduras or El Salvador, 1643 01:17:57,560 --> 01:18:00,880 Speaker 1: and he was killed, he was murdered, and I spent 1644 01:18:00,960 --> 01:18:03,920 Speaker 1: ten years trying to bring his murderer to justice. And 1645 01:18:03,960 --> 01:18:05,920 Speaker 1: I wasn't able to do it till I brought a 1646 01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:09,439 Speaker 1: camera down there, and the local people just opened right 1647 01:18:09,520 --> 01:18:11,360 Speaker 1: up to me. Once I had a camera. They thought 1648 01:18:11,479 --> 01:18:14,880 Speaker 1: everything they said was being sent by satellite and being transmitted. 1649 01:18:14,920 --> 01:18:17,599 Speaker 1: It was like a truth serum. This is the way 1650 01:18:17,640 --> 01:18:21,080 Speaker 1: to find your son. So these are producers reaching out. 1651 01:18:21,160 --> 01:18:25,160 Speaker 1: They look for stories like this, yep, and that they 1652 01:18:25,160 --> 01:18:27,080 Speaker 1: think are going to make dramatic TV. And they find 1653 01:18:27,080 --> 01:18:29,200 Speaker 1: people and reach out and do that right. And I mean, 1654 01:18:29,200 --> 01:18:32,000 Speaker 1: I had lots of you know, producers, but this one 1655 01:18:32,160 --> 01:18:35,120 Speaker 1: was different. And they got to Peggy. I don't want 1656 01:18:35,120 --> 01:18:37,760 Speaker 1: to say they got to her but they convinced her, 1657 01:18:37,760 --> 01:18:39,160 Speaker 1: and I was like, yeah, that sounds good. And then 1658 01:18:39,160 --> 01:18:41,360 Speaker 1: they offered up this like it sounded really good to me. 1659 01:18:41,880 --> 01:18:45,400 Speaker 1: They said, um, hey, here's what we'll do. We'll get 1660 01:18:45,400 --> 01:18:48,240 Speaker 1: a cayraminal investigator, which I had no experience doing that. 1661 01:18:48,320 --> 01:18:50,200 Speaker 1: And then by that point, you know, this is like 1662 01:18:50,280 --> 01:18:55,120 Speaker 1: a year later, the foul play seemed just as likely 1663 01:18:55,160 --> 01:18:58,200 Speaker 1: as anything else. But I also wanted to keep looking 1664 01:18:58,200 --> 01:19:00,559 Speaker 1: in the jungle. And they got this p J. You know, 1665 01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:02,719 Speaker 1: a pair of jumper, one of those Air Force guys 1666 01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:05,599 Speaker 1: that know they can do everything. You know, they're scrawny 1667 01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:09,480 Speaker 1: little guys. They can jump out of airplanes and swim 1668 01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:11,880 Speaker 1: and you know, they swim underwater if they pass out. 1669 01:19:11,880 --> 01:19:13,320 Speaker 1: That's how you know you can be a PJ too. 1670 01:19:13,320 --> 01:19:17,160 Speaker 1: You swim underwater to you pass. Professional rescuer, they're professional rescue. Yeah. 1671 01:19:17,160 --> 01:19:19,080 Speaker 1: They can shoot guns, they can save lives, they can 1672 01:19:19,120 --> 01:19:20,559 Speaker 1: do it all. And I have a bunch of friends. 1673 01:19:20,560 --> 01:19:22,680 Speaker 1: They did the Wilderness Classic race and they would win, 1674 01:19:22,800 --> 01:19:26,160 Speaker 1: and super cool guys. And I met this guy Ken. 1675 01:19:26,720 --> 01:19:28,639 Speaker 1: He'd done a race I put on, an Armed Forces 1676 01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:30,640 Speaker 1: Eco Challenge race that I put on, and he had 1677 01:19:30,680 --> 01:19:32,439 Speaker 1: been on the winning team like two years in a row, 1678 01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:36,800 Speaker 1: and so um, I was like, wow, yeah, he'd be great. 1679 01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:38,559 Speaker 1: He and I can go in the jungle and look 1680 01:19:39,120 --> 01:19:42,120 Speaker 1: and this you know, retired d E a agent. He 1681 01:19:42,160 --> 01:19:45,400 Speaker 1: can do the criminal investigations. He'd spent twenty five years 1682 01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:47,599 Speaker 1: in Latin America. You know. He was like ten feet 1683 01:19:47,640 --> 01:19:49,800 Speaker 1: tall and bald, with like you know, an a R 1684 01:19:49,880 --> 01:19:52,320 Speaker 1: fifteen tattoo down his arm or something like that. I 1685 01:19:52,360 --> 01:19:57,200 Speaker 1: don't really remember, but its people open right up. That's yeah, 1686 01:19:57,320 --> 01:20:01,040 Speaker 1: you know, and it seemed like the team, you know, 1687 01:20:01,320 --> 01:20:03,920 Speaker 1: and uh, and I had done enough with television to 1688 01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:07,800 Speaker 1: know that they were really for Nagio. Well you know, 1689 01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:10,280 Speaker 1: they were an independent producer and they were trying different 1690 01:20:10,840 --> 01:20:14,880 Speaker 1: show different channels, and they ended up selling the show 1691 01:20:15,320 --> 01:20:19,120 Speaker 1: or you know, getting financing from Natural. They sold the proposal, 1692 01:20:19,479 --> 01:20:21,320 Speaker 1: and they had a couple of different I don't watch TV, 1693 01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:22,880 Speaker 1: so I don't really know all of them. But it's 1694 01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:26,080 Speaker 1: hilarious that that, you know, like the reputation that National 1695 01:20:26,120 --> 01:20:28,479 Speaker 1: Geographic has was sort of like the truth, you know, 1696 01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:32,720 Speaker 1: and like the but then the TV is they don't 1697 01:20:32,720 --> 01:20:35,559 Speaker 1: know Richard Murdoch is the one who owns it now, 1698 01:20:35,640 --> 01:20:37,880 Speaker 1: you know, it's like it's not national. It's not the 1699 01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:41,080 Speaker 1: national geographic that Rupert, thank you. It's not the nation 1700 01:20:41,120 --> 01:20:43,800 Speaker 1: geographic that your parents grew up with, you know what 1701 01:20:43,840 --> 01:20:45,960 Speaker 1: I mean. It's not that they would be happy with 1702 01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:49,000 Speaker 1: you if they knew you hunted either. Probably not those guys. 1703 01:20:49,040 --> 01:20:51,880 Speaker 1: Those guys are horrible. Well I so, I I you know, 1704 01:20:51,960 --> 01:20:56,120 Speaker 1: I was I. I asked these guys on the telephone, 1705 01:20:56,200 --> 01:20:59,640 Speaker 1: you know, like, Hey, is this reality TV? Or is 1706 01:20:59,640 --> 01:21:01,639 Speaker 1: this the doct coumentary? And and and by the way, 1707 01:21:01,680 --> 01:21:04,880 Speaker 1: you know, what's what's the death difference between to you guys, 1708 01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:07,640 Speaker 1: you know, not to these producers. I asked, what's the 1709 01:21:07,640 --> 01:21:11,200 Speaker 1: difference to you guys between reality TV and a documentary? 1710 01:21:11,200 --> 01:21:13,960 Speaker 1: And there's just long pause on this conference call, and 1711 01:21:14,000 --> 01:21:16,000 Speaker 1: then I, you know, looking back, I'm kind of like, oh, 1712 01:21:16,080 --> 01:21:19,439 Speaker 1: they this was reality all along, you know, And they said, oh, well, 1713 01:21:19,479 --> 01:21:24,599 Speaker 1: reality TV is is when it's really overproduced. And um so, anyway, 1714 01:21:24,680 --> 01:21:26,800 Speaker 1: that became like my code word. Whenever I thought they 1715 01:21:26,800 --> 01:21:30,880 Speaker 1: were doing something to kind of manipulate me or Peggy 1716 01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:34,000 Speaker 1: for their show, I'd say, hey, this feels a little overproduced, 1717 01:21:34,040 --> 01:21:36,000 Speaker 1: and I would put a stop to it if I could. 1718 01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:38,800 Speaker 1: But we went down there, and I thought that the 1719 01:21:38,800 --> 01:21:41,000 Speaker 1: television would be able to get permits to get into 1720 01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:43,320 Speaker 1: the park because I had been my big bugaboo, my 1721 01:21:43,320 --> 01:21:45,920 Speaker 1: big stumbling block was trying to was to get permits 1722 01:21:45,920 --> 01:21:47,400 Speaker 1: where I could go into the park to look around. 1723 01:21:47,400 --> 01:21:50,120 Speaker 1: I mean I ultimately did even in the first six 1724 01:21:50,200 --> 01:21:51,960 Speaker 1: weeks while I was down there. I was able to 1725 01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:55,599 Speaker 1: do it thanks to you know, me Treadwell and these 1726 01:21:55,600 --> 01:22:01,080 Speaker 1: other guys who new people in Costa Rica and and um. 1727 01:22:01,439 --> 01:22:03,680 Speaker 1: But my experience with television shows is they were really 1728 01:22:03,720 --> 01:22:05,960 Speaker 1: good at getting permits. They had whole divisions who would 1729 01:22:06,000 --> 01:22:09,160 Speaker 1: get permits in parks and things. So I thought, oh, 1730 01:22:09,200 --> 01:22:13,080 Speaker 1: this sounds great. We'll have you know, the x d 1731 01:22:13,200 --> 01:22:17,720 Speaker 1: E A guy do criminal investigation on the outside, and 1732 01:22:17,760 --> 01:22:19,519 Speaker 1: me and Ken will go on the inside and I 1733 01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:22,400 Speaker 1: can pick up where I left off, keep searching legally 1734 01:22:22,479 --> 01:22:24,799 Speaker 1: and everywhere I want. But it turned out they couldn't 1735 01:22:24,840 --> 01:22:29,120 Speaker 1: get permits to go in. So everything became about, you know, 1736 01:22:29,880 --> 01:22:32,800 Speaker 1: the criminal investigation, and the only thing the criminal investigation 1737 01:22:32,800 --> 01:22:35,960 Speaker 1: could come up with was this Potdalora story. And Potdalora 1738 01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:40,040 Speaker 1: spun it even crazier, you know, and you know, with 1739 01:22:40,960 --> 01:22:45,519 Speaker 1: more murderers and like cutting up my son and feeding 1740 01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:49,679 Speaker 1: him to the sharks and stuff like he's schizophrenic. He 1741 01:22:49,680 --> 01:22:52,160 Speaker 1: he was, Yeah, so anyway, it's just you know, and 1742 01:22:52,200 --> 01:22:54,519 Speaker 1: they bought that hook line and saying oh yeah, I 1743 01:22:54,520 --> 01:22:58,160 Speaker 1: mean the TV people they made little re enactments. Oh 1744 01:22:58,200 --> 01:23:00,479 Speaker 1: it was horrible. And then this guy Carson, who was 1745 01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:03,920 Speaker 1: this x d E A guy he was mad at 1746 01:23:03,920 --> 01:23:08,160 Speaker 1: me and offended that I didn't embrace his ideas. I'm like, 1747 01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:11,400 Speaker 1: you know, I remember when I first met him, and 1748 01:23:11,439 --> 01:23:14,439 Speaker 1: they fired up the cameras and you know, Carson's like, 1749 01:23:14,479 --> 01:23:16,519 Speaker 1: tell me everything you can't You didn't say I can't 1750 01:23:16,640 --> 01:23:20,200 Speaker 1: tell me everything you know about your son. I'm like, wow, 1751 01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:22,240 Speaker 1: you know, how can I tell you everything I know 1752 01:23:22,280 --> 01:23:25,519 Speaker 1: about my son? Like in five minutes on the television camera. 1753 01:23:26,040 --> 01:23:29,040 Speaker 1: And so I just told him the same story I've 1754 01:23:29,080 --> 01:23:31,639 Speaker 1: been telling for a year, you know, like I knew 1755 01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:34,720 Speaker 1: my son. I raised him in the wilderness. He uh 1756 01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:38,080 Speaker 1: had been on a six month trip through south through 1757 01:23:38,080 --> 01:23:41,360 Speaker 1: Central America. He'd done some really radical, crazy things already. 1758 01:23:41,439 --> 01:23:44,960 Speaker 1: He has a lot of experience and uh, and I 1759 01:23:45,120 --> 01:23:46,800 Speaker 1: laid it all out and then it was like he 1760 01:23:46,800 --> 01:23:49,519 Speaker 1: didn't even hear me, you know, and then anything I 1761 01:23:49,600 --> 01:23:51,800 Speaker 1: ever told him. He just dismissed it, and it is 1762 01:23:51,880 --> 01:23:55,320 Speaker 1: everything was about his hypothesis, you know. And I'm a scientist, 1763 01:23:55,360 --> 01:23:58,200 Speaker 1: and it's just it's hard for me to throw away 1764 01:23:58,320 --> 01:24:01,240 Speaker 1: data or to discount things, you know, like I don't. 1765 01:24:01,640 --> 01:24:03,479 Speaker 1: I'm not allowed to do that. I can't. It doesn't 1766 01:24:03,560 --> 01:24:06,160 Speaker 1: work for me to like throw away data to make 1767 01:24:06,240 --> 01:24:08,280 Speaker 1: something fit what I want to believe. And that's all 1768 01:24:08,280 --> 01:24:11,760 Speaker 1: this guy did, and just story. Everything had to fit 1769 01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:14,080 Speaker 1: the story. Oh it was painful. And then he was 1770 01:24:14,120 --> 01:24:17,280 Speaker 1: like offended that I wasn't like thankful to him for this. 1771 01:24:17,800 --> 01:24:23,120 Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't like watching reenactment of your son 1772 01:24:23,240 --> 01:24:27,320 Speaker 1: being dismembered by a machete. Well, I don't know. You can. 1773 01:24:27,439 --> 01:24:29,200 Speaker 1: You could probably tell it to me just as well 1774 01:24:29,240 --> 01:24:31,400 Speaker 1: as I could say, and it's it's not exactly something 1775 01:24:31,479 --> 01:24:33,160 Speaker 1: you want to see, you know. And I just but 1776 01:24:33,200 --> 01:24:35,639 Speaker 1: you were told to avoid it. Yeah, he said, don't 1777 01:24:35,680 --> 01:24:37,960 Speaker 1: watch it, you know. I mean, but I was in 1778 01:24:37,960 --> 01:24:41,160 Speaker 1: a hotel and it was advertised, you know, like what 1779 01:24:41,479 --> 01:24:47,960 Speaker 1: was the show called Missing Dial M Missing Dial? Yeah, 1780 01:24:48,360 --> 01:24:50,880 Speaker 1: I don't know that, you know what. Yeah, I'm glad 1781 01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:53,200 Speaker 1: you just said that, because that's a stupid question when 1782 01:24:53,240 --> 01:24:55,400 Speaker 1: I asked you what it was like, Yeah, I mean 1783 01:24:55,439 --> 01:24:59,760 Speaker 1: anybody should be like yeah, I just it's just it was, Ah, 1784 01:25:00,080 --> 01:25:03,960 Speaker 1: I don't know so anyway, Um, you know, maybe I 1785 01:25:04,040 --> 01:25:06,679 Speaker 1: was too hard on the TV, Like my agent seems 1786 01:25:06,720 --> 01:25:08,719 Speaker 1: to think I was too hard on the television people 1787 01:25:08,800 --> 01:25:11,200 Speaker 1: and in the book, yeah, in the book, and other 1788 01:25:11,280 --> 01:25:13,479 Speaker 1: people think I wasn't hard enough. I tried to be 1789 01:25:13,520 --> 01:25:15,559 Speaker 1: honest about how I felt. All I did was tell 1790 01:25:15,680 --> 01:25:18,920 Speaker 1: all I do in the book how I felt. You know. 1791 01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:21,320 Speaker 1: I used to be friends with the writer Chris off It, 1792 01:25:22,160 --> 01:25:24,559 Speaker 1: and uh, he wrote a book that was very critical 1793 01:25:24,600 --> 01:25:30,280 Speaker 1: of his family, and someone pointed out to him, uh, 1794 01:25:30,560 --> 01:25:32,599 Speaker 1: you know how he didn't really do a good job 1795 01:25:32,640 --> 01:25:34,800 Speaker 1: telling their side of the story. And he said, we'll 1796 01:25:34,840 --> 01:25:38,400 Speaker 1: have them write their own fucking book. Well, they made it, 1797 01:25:39,080 --> 01:25:40,840 Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. They already made their own show. 1798 01:25:40,880 --> 01:25:43,200 Speaker 1: They made their own show. He had like, this is 1799 01:25:43,240 --> 01:25:47,080 Speaker 1: your turn. Now that's how I feel exactly. That's like 1800 01:25:47,080 --> 01:25:49,960 Speaker 1: like they got plenty of you know, people like I 1801 01:25:50,000 --> 01:25:51,720 Speaker 1: shouldn't give them an audience. I mean, they got all 1802 01:25:51,720 --> 01:25:54,240 Speaker 1: the audience they want. And I was grateful for the help, 1803 01:25:54,240 --> 01:25:55,960 Speaker 1: and I was grateful for what they did, and I 1804 01:25:55,960 --> 01:25:58,080 Speaker 1: mean they convinced me, and I was ready to believe 1805 01:25:58,160 --> 01:25:59,519 Speaker 1: him because I could. I gave up, you know. And 1806 01:25:59,560 --> 01:26:02,800 Speaker 1: plus you don't hire a consultant to argue with him, right, 1807 01:26:03,120 --> 01:26:06,599 Speaker 1: So I don't know. It was kind of a wild ride, 1808 01:26:06,640 --> 01:26:09,000 Speaker 1: you know. Like I I read it because I knew 1809 01:26:09,040 --> 01:26:10,719 Speaker 1: I was coming here, so I had to read it again, 1810 01:26:11,200 --> 01:26:13,280 Speaker 1: you know. Um, I mean I've read it a lot 1811 01:26:13,320 --> 01:26:15,160 Speaker 1: of times. I can I can read it pretty quick, 1812 01:26:15,520 --> 01:26:18,920 Speaker 1: and and when I read it sometimes I can't believe 1813 01:26:18,920 --> 01:26:20,640 Speaker 1: all that stuff happened, you know what I mean. It's 1814 01:26:20,640 --> 01:26:22,559 Speaker 1: sort of like it was a really unexpected turn. I 1815 01:26:22,600 --> 01:26:28,920 Speaker 1: was not anticipating. You know. I'm respecting your Um, I'm 1816 01:26:28,960 --> 01:26:34,120 Speaker 1: respecting your desire to not just divulge everything because I 1817 01:26:34,160 --> 01:26:37,639 Speaker 1: get it, you know, Um, I think people will buy 1818 01:26:37,640 --> 01:26:39,599 Speaker 1: your boat. I want people to buy your boat. But 1819 01:26:39,720 --> 01:26:41,600 Speaker 1: I'm trying to do this in a in a in 1820 01:26:41,600 --> 01:26:51,800 Speaker 1: a way that doesn't have any spoilers. Um. How when 1821 01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:54,080 Speaker 1: I read it, I I to be honest with you. 1822 01:26:54,240 --> 01:26:59,880 Speaker 1: In the end, I didn't. I don't feel that you're naive. 1823 01:27:00,040 --> 01:27:03,800 Speaker 1: You've being naive, But in the end, I wasn't. I'm 1824 01:27:03,840 --> 01:27:11,960 Speaker 1: not entirely convinced about the certain I'm not entirely convinced 1825 01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:16,680 Speaker 1: what happened to him. Yeah, well I know how convinced 1826 01:27:16,680 --> 01:27:20,160 Speaker 1: are you? So you know, it kind of kind of 1827 01:27:20,240 --> 01:27:23,920 Speaker 1: goes different ways, you know, Like I'm I don't think 1828 01:27:24,040 --> 01:27:27,559 Speaker 1: i'd ever you know, that's a really good question. I'm 1829 01:27:27,680 --> 01:27:34,559 Speaker 1: I I'm sure sure that he died either from a 1830 01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:37,320 Speaker 1: snake bite or a fallen tree, you know, because there 1831 01:27:37,439 --> 01:27:41,280 Speaker 1: wasn't any evidence that he was you know, like no, 1832 01:27:41,479 --> 01:27:45,320 Speaker 1: nothing was stolen, nothing, there's no you know, he wasn't. 1833 01:27:46,080 --> 01:27:48,160 Speaker 1: There's no marks on the bones, you know what I mean. 1834 01:27:48,680 --> 01:27:50,840 Speaker 1: And it was just I've seen his bones. I saw 1835 01:27:50,880 --> 01:27:55,120 Speaker 1: his bones, So I just I can't see him being murdered, 1836 01:27:55,240 --> 01:27:58,320 Speaker 1: you know, like it didn't there there's a chance, you know, 1837 01:27:58,479 --> 01:28:00,640 Speaker 1: like aliens could have abducted him, killed him. I mean 1838 01:28:00,680 --> 01:28:04,200 Speaker 1: there's that chance, but I'm really the odds of that 1839 01:28:04,240 --> 01:28:07,599 Speaker 1: are so so super small, like having been there and 1840 01:28:07,840 --> 01:28:10,880 Speaker 1: where it happened, and who would who would have done it? 1841 01:28:10,880 --> 01:28:15,760 Speaker 1: I just I can't, like, um, you know, I've been 1842 01:28:15,800 --> 01:28:18,920 Speaker 1: around law enforcement enough now, like you know, and it 1843 01:28:19,040 --> 01:28:21,360 Speaker 1: sort of sounds cliche, but what would be the motive? 1844 01:28:21,640 --> 01:28:25,439 Speaker 1: You know, And it's just that nobody would have any 1845 01:28:25,479 --> 01:28:29,320 Speaker 1: motive for doing it. Um, you know, the miners wouldn't 1846 01:28:29,360 --> 01:28:34,400 Speaker 1: have any motive for doing it. So I'm pretty you know, like, yeah, 1847 01:28:34,439 --> 01:28:36,960 Speaker 1: at least that he died a natural death, you know, 1848 01:28:37,240 --> 01:28:40,080 Speaker 1: and that would be natural death. I know that he 1849 01:28:40,160 --> 01:28:44,280 Speaker 1: was killed by a tree or a snake bite occupation. 1850 01:28:45,120 --> 01:28:48,479 Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, I guess you're not a man. 1851 01:28:48,560 --> 01:28:51,840 Speaker 1: Not a man, right, Yeah, that's all I am with. Yeah, 1852 01:28:52,080 --> 01:28:54,880 Speaker 1: I think it's maybe it's maybe it's natural to die 1853 01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:57,800 Speaker 1: from somebody else, but I would kind of That's kind 1854 01:28:57,800 --> 01:29:00,639 Speaker 1: of the dividing line for me. Is an actual death 1855 01:29:00,760 --> 01:29:05,080 Speaker 1: is where you die by like accident or nature, you 1856 01:29:05,120 --> 01:29:07,000 Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like, I guess accidents kind of 1857 01:29:07,000 --> 01:29:09,760 Speaker 1: fall into nature like an act of God. You know, 1858 01:29:09,960 --> 01:29:12,840 Speaker 1: an earthquake or even a car wreck could be considered 1859 01:29:13,160 --> 01:29:15,840 Speaker 1: unless somebody's drunk and they hit you and then somebody 1860 01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:20,000 Speaker 1: killed you. But if you know, if somebody's looking in 1861 01:29:20,040 --> 01:29:22,560 Speaker 1: their glove box and you t bone them and I 1862 01:29:22,600 --> 01:29:29,640 Speaker 1: don't know, um so um. Outside of the conclusion in 1863 01:29:29,680 --> 01:29:36,760 Speaker 1: the book, you just spam how how long trying to 1864 01:29:36,800 --> 01:29:40,800 Speaker 1: find find an answer? It was like two years, you mean, 1865 01:29:41,800 --> 01:29:45,080 Speaker 1: and then that's all you thought about for two years. Well, 1866 01:29:45,120 --> 01:29:48,400 Speaker 1: you know, I did, I did do some other stuff, 1867 01:29:48,560 --> 01:29:50,880 Speaker 1: you know, but yeah, it was always on my mind. Yeah, 1868 01:29:50,880 --> 01:29:53,479 Speaker 1: I mean it was very It was definitely a relief 1869 01:29:54,000 --> 01:29:56,920 Speaker 1: to to kind of get I mean, I'd still be looking, 1870 01:29:57,120 --> 01:29:58,680 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like I don't know when 1871 01:29:58,680 --> 01:30:01,000 Speaker 1: I would have stopped, to know when I would have stopped. 1872 01:30:01,240 --> 01:30:04,360 Speaker 1: Did you have some loss in in your relief though? Also, 1873 01:30:04,560 --> 01:30:07,320 Speaker 1: or you're like, oh, what what the hell do I 1874 01:30:07,320 --> 01:30:14,200 Speaker 1: do with my life now? M hm? Well, I definitely 1875 01:30:14,200 --> 01:30:17,639 Speaker 1: had a loss. Um, you know, I do I feel 1876 01:30:18,080 --> 01:30:20,800 Speaker 1: you know, it sounds not a corny but I do 1877 01:30:20,880 --> 01:30:23,920 Speaker 1: I feel broken, you know. Um, I put a lot. 1878 01:30:23,960 --> 01:30:25,360 Speaker 1: I mean, it was my son, you know. I mean 1879 01:30:25,400 --> 01:30:27,519 Speaker 1: if any of you guys lost your kids, you probably 1880 01:30:27,520 --> 01:30:30,120 Speaker 1: feel similarly, you know. I mean it's especially if you 1881 01:30:31,400 --> 01:30:33,880 Speaker 1: love your son and put stuff and or your daughter, 1882 01:30:34,000 --> 01:30:37,720 Speaker 1: you know, or your wife. But I'm really fortunate, you know. 1883 01:30:37,720 --> 01:30:41,040 Speaker 1: I have my wife and my daughter and my friends, 1884 01:30:41,080 --> 01:30:43,680 Speaker 1: and you know, I've got work and and it was 1885 01:30:43,720 --> 01:30:45,240 Speaker 1: worth it to write the book. I didn't write the 1886 01:30:45,280 --> 01:30:47,559 Speaker 1: book to make any money. I didn't write the book. 1887 01:30:48,120 --> 01:30:49,840 Speaker 1: I didn't write the book for money, you know. I 1888 01:30:49,880 --> 01:30:51,880 Speaker 1: wrote the book because I needed to tell the story. 1889 01:30:51,920 --> 01:30:53,400 Speaker 1: I wrote the book for me, and I wrote the 1890 01:30:53,439 --> 01:30:56,040 Speaker 1: book for my my family and my friends, so they 1891 01:30:56,080 --> 01:30:59,280 Speaker 1: knew what happened, you know. And I wondered about that 1892 01:30:59,320 --> 01:31:01,519 Speaker 1: because I used to field that anytime someone wrote a 1893 01:31:01,520 --> 01:31:06,360 Speaker 1: book about something damaging, that them having written a book 1894 01:31:06,400 --> 01:31:09,080 Speaker 1: about it was evidence that they were no longer damaged, 1895 01:31:09,120 --> 01:31:12,439 Speaker 1: because it's hard to write books. Huh. Well, you know 1896 01:31:12,439 --> 01:31:14,400 Speaker 1: what I mean. It's like you have to step outside 1897 01:31:14,400 --> 01:31:15,600 Speaker 1: of it and look at it. And so I was 1898 01:31:15,640 --> 01:31:19,000 Speaker 1: curious before meeting you. I was curious if you were 1899 01:31:19,200 --> 01:31:23,200 Speaker 1: um like, to what degree you were a mess, to 1900 01:31:23,280 --> 01:31:26,360 Speaker 1: what degree you were damaged by it or came out different, 1901 01:31:27,040 --> 01:31:29,479 Speaker 1: and how you came into it, you mean, ended writing 1902 01:31:29,479 --> 01:31:32,200 Speaker 1: the book. Yeah, my dad lost you know, beforefore I 1903 01:31:32,240 --> 01:31:34,080 Speaker 1: was born. My father lost his son, right, and you 1904 01:31:34,080 --> 01:31:36,840 Speaker 1: would you could hang out with him. I imagine there's 1905 01:31:36,880 --> 01:31:38,479 Speaker 1: people that knew him for ten years and didn't know 1906 01:31:38,520 --> 01:31:41,880 Speaker 1: that that happened. Uh huh. Well, I got stuck, right 1907 01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:44,679 Speaker 1: because I ran down there to look from my son. 1908 01:31:44,880 --> 01:31:47,840 Speaker 1: I wrote an email. I called people in CoA streak. 1909 01:31:47,880 --> 01:31:51,120 Speaker 1: I said, my son's missing, my son's missing. I gotta 1910 01:31:51,160 --> 01:31:53,120 Speaker 1: find him you gotta find him, Help me find him, 1911 01:31:53,160 --> 01:31:55,120 Speaker 1: you know. And I ran down there and I looked, 1912 01:31:56,120 --> 01:31:57,760 Speaker 1: and then people are like, hey, you know, I had 1913 01:31:57,800 --> 01:31:59,800 Speaker 1: to tell the story over and over and over, you know, 1914 01:32:00,520 --> 01:32:04,439 Speaker 1: and and then it just through a natural progression. It was, 1915 01:32:05,120 --> 01:32:07,200 Speaker 1: you know, I'm still looking for him, and I he's 1916 01:32:07,240 --> 01:32:09,679 Speaker 1: probably dead, but and people wanted to hear the story. 1917 01:32:09,680 --> 01:32:11,599 Speaker 1: And then there was the TV show, so I got 1918 01:32:11,720 --> 01:32:14,839 Speaker 1: used to telling the story, you know, like from the beginning. 1919 01:32:14,920 --> 01:32:18,719 Speaker 1: It's just it's like, you know, something like a stink 1920 01:32:18,760 --> 01:32:20,639 Speaker 1: in a room. You know, in your house, you've got 1921 01:32:20,640 --> 01:32:22,760 Speaker 1: a stink, you don't notice it anymore because you've lived 1922 01:32:22,760 --> 01:32:25,479 Speaker 1: with it, you know, Or a pain that you have 1923 01:32:25,560 --> 01:32:27,559 Speaker 1: to live with you don't hardly notice it. Or a sound, 1924 01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:29,360 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So having to tell the 1925 01:32:29,400 --> 01:32:32,240 Speaker 1: story was a natural thing. And when I was down there, 1926 01:32:33,560 --> 01:32:35,719 Speaker 1: you know, like I'm an older guy, so my memories 1927 01:32:35,800 --> 01:32:38,000 Speaker 1: kind of shaky, so I had to write everything down. 1928 01:32:38,000 --> 01:32:40,639 Speaker 1: And I ran down there with the notebook that had, 1929 01:32:40,720 --> 01:32:44,559 Speaker 1: you know, like the sketches for the remodel I was 1930 01:32:44,600 --> 01:32:47,559 Speaker 1: doing in my house and the shopping list to go 1931 01:32:48,200 --> 01:32:50,280 Speaker 1: dip netting. And then I ran down there with that 1932 01:32:50,400 --> 01:32:53,360 Speaker 1: notebook and then it was phone numbers the people to 1933 01:32:53,439 --> 01:32:56,479 Speaker 1: talk to and notes of what people said, and and 1934 01:32:56,479 --> 01:32:58,920 Speaker 1: then that notebook was filled up. And then it was 1935 01:32:59,280 --> 01:33:02,160 Speaker 1: stories and I was recording what people you know, that 1936 01:33:02,280 --> 01:33:05,320 Speaker 1: what they described, I was transcribing as they told me stories. 1937 01:33:05,360 --> 01:33:07,519 Speaker 1: And and then that was sort of I had to 1938 01:33:08,600 --> 01:33:11,960 Speaker 1: process what I was thinking, like what happened? Who? Who? How? 1939 01:33:12,200 --> 01:33:14,000 Speaker 1: What could have happened? And how did I feel? And 1940 01:33:14,160 --> 01:33:18,360 Speaker 1: and then it just you know, turned into three or 1941 01:33:18,400 --> 01:33:21,640 Speaker 1: four journals and I was like, wow, this is this 1942 01:33:21,720 --> 01:33:24,200 Speaker 1: is kind of a book. People would I want to 1943 01:33:24,640 --> 01:33:26,960 Speaker 1: straighten this out so people really know what happened here, 1944 01:33:27,080 --> 01:33:29,400 Speaker 1: especially after the TV show, You know, did you make 1945 01:33:29,400 --> 01:33:35,559 Speaker 1: any effort um two or was there any effort needed 1946 01:33:35,600 --> 01:33:41,040 Speaker 1: to make you know, some of these officials that weren't 1947 01:33:41,040 --> 01:33:44,800 Speaker 1: issuing permits or folks trying to really tell you like 1948 01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:47,720 Speaker 1: you don't know what you're doing that they knew the 1949 01:33:47,800 --> 01:33:52,200 Speaker 1: conclusion once. Once you found it, you would be like, hey, 1950 01:33:52,520 --> 01:33:56,240 Speaker 1: not every white dude missing a kid is crazy. Here's 1951 01:33:56,240 --> 01:33:58,920 Speaker 1: a good example. Like I was saying, well, like I 1952 01:33:59,000 --> 01:34:01,759 Speaker 1: was saying, well, here is he Well, here's what happened 1953 01:34:01,840 --> 01:34:05,719 Speaker 1: is um you know, it became big news because everybody 1954 01:34:05,720 --> 01:34:07,920 Speaker 1: had already heard about it, and in Costa Rico, when 1955 01:34:07,960 --> 01:34:11,040 Speaker 1: they found the body, you know, it was still news. 1956 01:34:11,720 --> 01:34:16,519 Speaker 1: So it was kind of clear to everybody what had 1957 01:34:16,600 --> 01:34:19,800 Speaker 1: actually happened, in the sense that it didn't really match 1958 01:34:19,920 --> 01:34:22,280 Speaker 1: up with with the TV show. People were freaked out 1959 01:34:22,280 --> 01:34:24,800 Speaker 1: by the TV show, at least in that area, you know, 1960 01:34:24,840 --> 01:34:27,160 Speaker 1: because of the way they portrayed the people who lived. Yeah, 1961 01:34:27,280 --> 01:34:30,920 Speaker 1: there's like a handful of murderers walking around him among 1962 01:34:31,040 --> 01:34:34,280 Speaker 1: you right, Yeah, with machetes, people up feed them to 1963 01:34:34,360 --> 01:34:37,000 Speaker 1: sharks and they're just like hanging out now in town exactly. 1964 01:34:37,120 --> 01:34:39,080 Speaker 1: And they were freaked out. And I feel like that's 1965 01:34:39,120 --> 01:34:43,759 Speaker 1: part of the reason that, you know, my son's remains 1966 01:34:43,760 --> 01:34:46,200 Speaker 1: were found, is because this village was freaked out and 1967 01:34:46,200 --> 01:34:48,720 Speaker 1: they sent you know this, really this is really a 1968 01:34:48,800 --> 01:34:51,720 Speaker 1: miner in there to really look and I because and 1969 01:34:51,800 --> 01:34:55,639 Speaker 1: he did, he found him. So um So anyway, I'm 1970 01:34:55,680 --> 01:34:58,160 Speaker 1: kind of like I feel, I don't know, I don't 1971 01:34:58,840 --> 01:35:02,519 Speaker 1: you know, I didn't write the book to tell like, oh, 1972 01:35:02,560 --> 01:35:04,200 Speaker 1: I told you so you know what I mean. I 1973 01:35:04,240 --> 01:35:06,800 Speaker 1: didn't do it for that. I just I don't know. 1974 01:35:06,840 --> 01:35:10,360 Speaker 1: I I there's a lot of I mean, I wept 1975 01:35:10,400 --> 01:35:12,080 Speaker 1: a lot as I wrote that book. You know, there's 1976 01:35:12,080 --> 01:35:13,920 Speaker 1: a lot of harden there. I could never write another 1977 01:35:13,960 --> 01:35:16,360 Speaker 1: book like that, you know. I mean, I mean, I 1978 01:35:16,360 --> 01:35:18,400 Speaker 1: don't think. I hope I never have to write a 1979 01:35:18,439 --> 01:35:20,519 Speaker 1: book like I would never do that, I can. I 1980 01:35:20,560 --> 01:35:22,840 Speaker 1: think I can only write one book like that, you know. 1981 01:35:23,040 --> 01:35:26,240 Speaker 1: And and what what is the books out now? No, 1982 01:35:26,360 --> 01:35:30,680 Speaker 1: it'll be out in February, like, um, February is the 1983 01:35:30,720 --> 01:35:34,120 Speaker 1: release date. So in the in the process of writing 1984 01:35:34,160 --> 01:35:36,240 Speaker 1: the book, you I mean, you obviously were very close 1985 01:35:36,280 --> 01:35:37,680 Speaker 1: with your son. I knew a lot about him. But 1986 01:35:37,720 --> 01:35:40,519 Speaker 1: did you learn you did some research, you found out 1987 01:35:40,560 --> 01:35:43,439 Speaker 1: some things people he meant, did you learn more about 1988 01:35:43,520 --> 01:35:46,000 Speaker 1: him or things you didn't know? Oh? For sure? Yeah, 1989 01:35:46,040 --> 01:35:48,200 Speaker 1: I mean because you got into his emails. Well I 1990 01:35:48,240 --> 01:35:51,160 Speaker 1: got into his emails. Yeah, And I mean his friends 1991 01:35:51,160 --> 01:35:53,320 Speaker 1: gave me some of the stuff like from his you know, 1992 01:35:53,360 --> 01:35:56,479 Speaker 1: high school days and things like that and college days. 1993 01:35:56,479 --> 01:35:58,559 Speaker 1: And I did I learned a lot more about him, 1994 01:35:58,560 --> 01:36:00,360 Speaker 1: you know, things maybe that as a parent you really 1995 01:36:00,400 --> 01:36:03,520 Speaker 1: don't want to know. Um, but you kind of suspect 1996 01:36:04,160 --> 01:36:07,200 Speaker 1: and uh. And he's a normal kid, you know, and 1997 01:36:07,400 --> 01:36:12,080 Speaker 1: uh and I think too um to like take his 1998 01:36:12,200 --> 01:36:15,400 Speaker 1: emails and turn them into that second section. So there's 1999 01:36:15,439 --> 01:36:18,080 Speaker 1: three parts to the book. There's sort of raising him, 2000 01:36:18,080 --> 01:36:19,960 Speaker 1: and then there's his trip, and then there's looking for 2001 01:36:20,040 --> 01:36:25,360 Speaker 1: him and on his trip through Mexico and Central America. Um, 2002 01:36:25,400 --> 01:36:27,720 Speaker 1: you know, to really pick apart his emails and then 2003 01:36:27,800 --> 01:36:30,400 Speaker 1: rewrite them, you know what I mean? That was. I 2004 01:36:30,479 --> 01:36:35,680 Speaker 1: was like, wow, you know, and I kind of, um, 2005 01:36:35,720 --> 01:36:37,880 Speaker 1: you know, i'd read them before as emails, but I 2006 01:36:37,880 --> 01:36:41,120 Speaker 1: didn't really. I don't know when when something when you 2007 01:36:41,160 --> 01:36:44,240 Speaker 1: take something and it goes through your eyes and into 2008 01:36:44,280 --> 01:36:47,040 Speaker 1: your head and comes out your fingers, you process it 2009 01:36:47,080 --> 01:36:49,920 Speaker 1: a lot more thoroughly. And I wish I'd had a 2010 01:36:50,000 --> 01:36:59,080 Speaker 1: chance to tell him, you know. Yeah, I I just 2011 01:36:59,120 --> 01:37:03,519 Speaker 1: realized we're saying the book a lot. The name of 2012 01:37:03,560 --> 01:37:12,280 Speaker 1: the book, The Adventurer's Son by Roman dial Um available. Well, 2013 01:37:12,640 --> 01:37:14,040 Speaker 1: I don't know when we're gonna release this, but we'll 2014 01:37:14,080 --> 01:37:20,840 Speaker 1: make it. Go get the book and uh yeah, thank you, 2015 01:37:20,880 --> 01:37:22,920 Speaker 1: thank you, I think they will, and thank you for 2016 01:37:22,960 --> 01:37:26,200 Speaker 1: writing it. I mean, you know, you hear the there's 2017 01:37:26,360 --> 01:37:29,519 Speaker 1: we just even laugh about it where you guys hear 2018 01:37:29,600 --> 01:37:32,560 Speaker 1: books described as like brave. I said, know, what the 2019 01:37:32,600 --> 01:37:36,559 Speaker 1: hell does that mean? But um, it's a brave book, 2020 01:37:36,600 --> 01:37:44,120 Speaker 1: and that aks like retelling of things that are extraordinarily painful. Ah, 2021 01:37:44,280 --> 01:37:48,439 Speaker 1: And to to to go in and excruciating detail and 2022 01:37:48,640 --> 01:37:52,200 Speaker 1: to get to a part of a book where someone's 2023 01:37:52,200 --> 01:37:53,960 Speaker 1: calling up a trail and you see that they have 2024 01:37:54,040 --> 01:38:00,160 Speaker 1: a plastic sack with your boy's bones. Um, it's the 2025 01:38:00,200 --> 01:38:04,719 Speaker 1: heart wrenching The Adventures Son by Roman Dial and uh, Roman, 2026 01:38:04,720 --> 01:38:06,960 Speaker 1: thank you very much for coming on the show. Thanks 2027 01:38:07,000 --> 01:38:09,800 Speaker 1: for having me. It's a pleasure to meet you. Appreciate it.