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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We musn't know my answer

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Speaker 1: for medical I lit over mor Okay, what's the mable sack?

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Speaker 1: You go? What try the house? Isn't about that? Okay?

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Speaker 1: Is she conscious? Gold her? Oh I needed a concious

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Speaker 1: I can't understand you. Okay, can your contact the part? Yeah? Okay?

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Speaker 1: What is your wife is unconscious? She is unconut on

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Speaker 1: the world. Okay, let's don't you get her out of

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Speaker 1: the water or of the world. She's got another waters

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Speaker 1: I'm the woman. Okay. Is she breathing at all? Okay?

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Speaker 1: Everyone take that on their way? Okay, what I'm Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. You just heard a nine one

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Speaker 1: one call an urgent nine one one call a beauty

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Speaker 1: queen brilliant as well slips under the water in her

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Speaker 1: tub to her death. Michelle McNeil absolutely stunning, found slowly

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Speaker 1: slipping away from life under the water in her own bathtub.

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Speaker 1: But how did it happen? Take a listen to this.

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Speaker 1: We mut water water Okay, Okay, they're from everyone because

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Speaker 1: the page. They're on their way. Okay, you're not y

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Speaker 1: have what I would an adult? Do? I be cool

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Speaker 1: that any one white? Can I help you? Are you

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Speaker 1: They're on their way? Did your wife breathing? More? Quick?

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Speaker 1: Norton cards, you're doing a PR? Mal Old? How old

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Speaker 1: is your wife? Surgury? What kind of figuring? Did you

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Speaker 1: have a holdbook? Shut a Facebook? Yeah? Okay? Do you

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Speaker 1: know how to do CPR? I'm a boyar Okay? Did

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Speaker 1: I you're hearing the rest of that nine one one

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Speaker 1: call when the nine one one operator calls back to

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Speaker 1: the mansion of doctor more Martin McNeil, his wife Michelle

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Speaker 1: slowly slipping away from life. Wow, A nine one one

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Speaker 1: call is how I like to start every single investigation,

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Speaker 1: every single incident, every single trial, every single accident reconstruction,

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Speaker 1: because in those moments, you hear what's really going on

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Speaker 1: at the time. I can have a detective or a

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Speaker 1: witness drone on on the stand forever, but it's not

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Speaker 1: the same as hearing it in the moment, Because what

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Speaker 1: I heard is a man screaming that his wife was

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Speaker 1: not breathing, that he is a physician, that he is

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Speaker 1: performing CPR, and he sounds completely in the moment trying

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Speaker 1: to save her. Joining me right now, an all star

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Speaker 1: panel starting with doctor Chris Sperry retired chief medical Examiner

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Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, renowned California prosecutor, author of Red Flags. Karen

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Speaker 1: Stark Psychologists joining us out of Manhattan. You can find

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Speaker 1: her at Krenstark dot com. Former detective you can find

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Speaker 1: him at Stephen Lampley dot com. And right now, syndicated

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Speaker 1: talk show host David mac David, let's start at the beginning.

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Speaker 1: I think I heard him yell at the words she

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Speaker 1: just had surgery. Yes, man, that's exactly what he said. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let me go straight to our physician, doctor Chris Sperry.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Sperry. Any surgery can have complications. I remember when

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Speaker 1: I gave birth to the twins. I couldn't breathe. I

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Speaker 1: couldn't breathe. I couldn't breathe. I didn't know what was happening.

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Speaker 1: Finally it took a while to identify I'd had blood

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Speaker 1: clots go many blood clots lodge in my lungs. That's

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Speaker 1: why I couldn't breathe, and it was exacerbated by a

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Speaker 1: cesarean section. That's what happened, and I steal to this

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Speaker 1: day don't really understand the whole thing. But I now

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Speaker 1: know that even a simple surge can have serious results

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Speaker 1: when you have a full on facelift, which I think

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Speaker 1: is pretty young. I'll get back to you my shrink

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Speaker 1: here and stark on this. At age fifty you have

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Speaker 1: a full on facelift. I mean, fifty is the new thirty.

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Speaker 1: That's what I read the other day. So anyway, doctor

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Speaker 1: Chris Berry, how can something like a facelift end up

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Speaker 1: in tragedy. Well, there's a lot of pain involved, and

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Speaker 1: many people don't appreciate that facelifts like this can be

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Speaker 1: very painful. It can be difficult to eat and to drink.

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Speaker 1: And one of the biggest problems actually that comes with

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Speaker 1: a surgery like this is the pain and then the

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Speaker 1: use of medications to blunt the pain, and then the

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Speaker 1: complications that arise from those medications. Okay, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: I instinctively just held my hand up to my face

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Speaker 1: and all three of us here in the studio, Jackie

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Speaker 1: and Riley and myself are making all sorts of faces

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Speaker 1: thinking about your face being you know, lacerated and cut

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Speaker 1: on in surgery too. Do you think plastic surgery a

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Speaker 1: full on facelift is more painful? Because I've always heard

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Speaker 1: doctor Sperry. Now that i've got you in my clutches

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Speaker 1: that anything to do around your neck and your face

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Speaker 1: is more painful than events that happen to the rest

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Speaker 1: of your body. Well, yes it is. The face has

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Speaker 1: lots and lots and lots of nerve endings and many

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Speaker 1: many small complex muscles, and so it needs a lot

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Speaker 1: of nerves to make all those work. When we talk,

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Speaker 1: when we smile, all the things we do with our

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Speaker 1: face require muscles and nerves. And there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: blood vessels as well, which is another danger, so, you know,

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Speaker 1: irritating the nerves. The inevitable swelling of all the tissues

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Speaker 1: from doing a facelift leads to increased pain and difficulty

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Speaker 1: in moving muscles, a whole host of different complications. And

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Speaker 1: it's most people who undergo facelifts like this don't really

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Speaker 1: understand how difficult the recovery can be because of the

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Speaker 1: swelling and the pain that's involved. Okay, so your theory

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Speaker 1: would be that potentially she had taken pain peels and

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Speaker 1: slipped under the water. You know, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: it is with women in bathtubs. Karen Stark, psychologists, isn't

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Speaker 1: fifty a little young to be having a facelift, a

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Speaker 1: full on facelift. Nowadays, Nancy, people sometimes have facelifts when

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Speaker 1: they're in their thirties. Okay, so is that a solid

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Speaker 1: man in New York City? So it's not. It's not

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Speaker 1: young at all. So is that you're telling me? No? Okay,

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Speaker 1: well I would think that it was. But okay, I

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Speaker 1: stand corrected. H David Mack question, do you joining me?

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Speaker 1: David Mack, syndicated talk show host. Was she on pain peels?

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Speaker 1: Could that have contributed to her drowning death? Yes? Man,

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Speaker 1: Actually she was on four different medications, all of which

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Speaker 1: would actually leave her sedated, and two of those were

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Speaker 1: pain medications, Laura tab and oxycoda. Oh okay, guys, take

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Speaker 1: a listen to this. My mom said, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: meet with the plastic surgeon. Your father wants to get

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Speaker 1: me a facelift. You've got to make up on by

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Speaker 1: anyone getting older, you have things that you don't like,

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Speaker 1: and so my dad's trying to do something nice for her.

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Speaker 1: She told me. She said, you know, your dad's trying

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Speaker 1: to look all better, or maybe I will too. I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe I would be a good thing. In April two

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Speaker 1: thousand and seven, Michelle moves ahead with the procedure. Alexis

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Speaker 1: takes a break from medical school in Nevada to help

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Speaker 1: with her mom's recovery. I was monitoring her. I was

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Speaker 1: giving her medication. She'd gotten down to like a half

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Speaker 1: of a pain pill. She was feeling good. I was

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Speaker 1: excited because she was healing very well. So I was

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Speaker 1: going to be flying back to Nevada to finish medical

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Speaker 1: school crime stories with Nancy Grace. I called my mom,

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Speaker 1: which was something that I did multiple times a day,

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Speaker 1: and she didn't answer. I called again, and my mom

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Speaker 1: didn't answer. What my father did. My father said her mother,

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Speaker 1: she's not waking up. I've called the police. I was

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Speaker 1: just horrified. I dropped all of my all of my books.

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Speaker 1: I got in my car, started driving as fast as

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Speaker 1: I could, just sobbing and driving to the airport. When

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Speaker 1: I got to the airport, my brother called and said

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Speaker 1: she didn't make it. Oh, my stars, I can't even

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Speaker 1: imagine getting the phone call that my mom quote didn't

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Speaker 1: make it. You're hearing our friends at Oxygen. Daughter Alexis

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Speaker 1: describing taking a break from medical school to help her

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Speaker 1: mom get over the plastic surgery. Then she was down

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Speaker 1: to half a pain pill a day, and so the daughter,

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Speaker 1: Alexis goes back to medical school in Nevada. David Mack,

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Speaker 1: syndicated talk show hosts, I need to know more of

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Speaker 1: the facts. Now, where did this happen? Tell me all

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Speaker 1: the circumstances surrounding finding this beauty queen and mother dead

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Speaker 1: or dying in the bathtub. There was water in it,

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Speaker 1: as you heard during the nine one one call and

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Speaker 1: her husband claiming that he can't get her out of

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Speaker 1: the tub. She had been on the phone with her

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Speaker 1: daughter Alexis about twenty minutes before this took place. And

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Speaker 1: when they found her, he had undone the waters of

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Speaker 1: the water was trying to draw out, but she was

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Speaker 1: still in the top. Wait a minute, Wait a minute.

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Speaker 1: Did you just tell me she had been on the

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Speaker 1: phone twenty minutes before she's found dying, Yes, ma'am. Okay, see,

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Speaker 1: I didn't remember that. I don't remember that fact at all. Wow,

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Speaker 1: And down to a half a pain pill, that's I

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Speaker 1: don't think very much at all, of course. Wendy Patrick,

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Speaker 1: California prosecutor, an author of red flags. In our business,

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Speaker 1: we think a half a pain peel that somebody takes

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Speaker 1: is nothing, because we're used to people trafficking bags and

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Speaker 1: bags and hundreds and thousands of pain peels like oxycoton

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Speaker 1: at a time. I'm so leary. I don't take any

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Speaker 1: medication at all unless I absolutely have to, because I'll

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Speaker 1: never forget Wendy. I was a brand new prosecutor out

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Speaker 1: of your dad's courtroom where he had just been. I've

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Speaker 1: got Darryl Cohen's daughter in here as an intern. Riley.

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Speaker 1: I was a brand new prosecutor and was taking one

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Speaker 1: of my very first guilty pleas and it was gorgeous

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Speaker 1: young woman that came in. I'd say she was about

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Speaker 1: h thirty one two three ish. I looked in the

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Speaker 1: file and she was a stockbroker, a very successful stockbroker.

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Speaker 1: She had lost her job, lost her license to trade

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Speaker 1: or whatever stockbrokers do exactly. She couldn't do that anymore.

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Speaker 1: She had been divorced, her family, her children were living

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Speaker 1: elsewhere with the husband. She was all alone because she

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Speaker 1: got addicted to painkillers and she was not ill. It

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Speaker 1: started with alcohol, then it turned into painkillers. She lost

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Speaker 1: everything and I just stood there going wow, I will

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Speaker 1: never forget that moment. So when I even hear of

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Speaker 1: I have a pain pill. You know, I don't think

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Speaker 1: that's very much compared to what we're used to seeing.

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Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick. Yeah, you're absolutely right, Nancy. And what is

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Speaker 1: stunning in a case like this, it's one thing to

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Speaker 1: have somebody over medicating themselves because they're stressed out, they're

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Speaker 1: burnt out, they become addicted. Take a listen to what

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Speaker 1: Alexis McNeil has to say about her mother. I called

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Speaker 1: my mom, which was something that I did multiple times

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Speaker 1: a day, and she didn't answer. I called again, and

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Speaker 1: my mom didn't answer. What my father did. My father said,

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Speaker 1: her mother, she's not waking up. I've called the police.

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Speaker 1: I was just horrified. I dropped all of all of

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Speaker 1: my books. I got in my car, started driving as

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Speaker 1: fast as I could, just sobbing and driving to the airport.

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Speaker 1: When I got to the airport, my brother called and said,

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Speaker 1: she didn't make it. You know, I'm just listening to

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Speaker 1: her recounting again how her mom quote didn't make it.

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Speaker 1: When I hear Stephen Lampley, detective at Stephen Lampley dot com,

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Speaker 1: when I hear a woman is dead in a bathtub,

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Speaker 1: I immediately think of Rod Coughlin's wife. Do you remember her,

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Speaker 1: silly Denishevski, That child just ended she was dead in

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Speaker 1: the shower. All right, then you've got Drew Peterson's first

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Speaker 1: of four wives, Kathleen Savio, dead in the tub. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I could just name them and name them and name

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Speaker 1: everybody's all these women seem to die in the tub.

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Speaker 1: Stephen Lampley, I mean, I guess. Now a homicide detective

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Speaker 1: walks into a scene and you find the woman dead

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Speaker 1: in the tub, You're like, Okay, this is a murder.

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Speaker 1: What's the deal with women in bathtub? Stephen nd it's easy,

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Speaker 1: and you know you'd like Princeton this case. You drug

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Speaker 1: somebody and then the water drowns them, and you've got

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Speaker 1: to supposedly good alibi. You've got a good case. It

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Speaker 1: is just a lot times easier. Of course, any homicide

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Speaker 1: detectives from to come in and you start from scratch

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Speaker 1: everybody around the world as a suspect, until you start

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Speaker 1: toliminating folks, including the family. But it seems it seems

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Speaker 1: that the tub is a is a favorite son of

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Speaker 1: of homicide suspects. Take a listen to this. Did the

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Speaker 1: defendant tell you about the day that Michelle passed away

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Speaker 1: A little Yeah, what did he tell you? He told

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Speaker 1: me that there was a healthfare going on at his

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Speaker 1: developmental center. He told me that he had picked up

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Speaker 1: his youngest from school and has gotten to the house

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Speaker 1: and found Michelle in the bathtub. Did he tell you

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Speaker 1: how she was dressed? He did? I think she was.

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Speaker 1: I think I don't remember when when. I didn't chase

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Speaker 1: him for details, but I believe she was partially dressed.

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Speaker 1: Partially dressed. Dave McK syndicated talk show host, You didn't

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Speaker 1: tell me that she's taking a bath in her clothes? Well,

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Speaker 1: you've got two descriptions. You've got one from Martin McNeill

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Speaker 1: in the way that the EMS crews found everything, and

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Speaker 1: you've got a description from the six year old daughter

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Speaker 1: who is the one who actually found her in the

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Speaker 1: tub and said she was fully clothed, wearing a sweat

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Speaker 1: a jogging outfit. Take me back to their mansion, describe

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Speaker 1: the scene. Who was home, who found the body? Where

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Speaker 1: were all the players at the moment she was found dead.

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Speaker 1: When she was found in the bathtub, doctor McNeill and

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Speaker 1: their six year old daughter had just come home from

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Speaker 1: an event at the school that day. Wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: So McNeill, the husband, doctor Martin McNeill, he's a lawyer

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Speaker 1: and a doctor, was away from home with the daughter

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Speaker 1: at a school event at the time she drowned. Did

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Speaker 1: you just say that, yes, ma'am. They were actually at

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Speaker 1: a safety fair at the school. After he picks up

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Speaker 1: his youngest daughter, Ada from the school about eleven thirty five,

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Speaker 1: they arrived back home a few minutes later. That's when

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Speaker 1: Ada found her mother unresponsive, according to her description, head

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Speaker 1: down in the master bound room bathtub. Now, Martin's son, Damien,

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Speaker 1: and Damien's girlfriend were apparently also in the home, but

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Speaker 1: I don't know exactly where they were, but that was

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Speaker 1: and she was found face down in the tub. According

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Speaker 1: to the six year old, she had a jogging suit on,

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Speaker 1: and of course when e MS got there, she was

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Speaker 1: partially closed. Okay, interesting, Why would she be in the

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Speaker 1: tub even partially clothed. This whole thing is not fitting

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Speaker 1: together for me. I want to go to Wendy Patrick,

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Speaker 1: California prosecutor author. I've read flags on Amazon. Wendy, A

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Speaker 1: lot of people think children are horrible witnesses. I disagree.

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Speaker 1: I think they're greatnesses because, yeah, it could be argued

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Speaker 1: they don't understand truth from lies, But I disagree with that.

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Speaker 1: I've had great success with children on the stand. You

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Speaker 1: have to kind of unlock their language, but once they begin,

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Speaker 1: once you understand what they're saying, I don't think they

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Speaker 1: have the same capacity to lie that adults do. This

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Speaker 1: little girl said, mommy was in the tub and she

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Speaker 1: had on her jogging suit. Yeah, you know, Nancy, I agree.

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Speaker 1: Kids lack not only the motivation but also the capacity

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Speaker 1: that the manipulative capacity that adults have. Children don't really

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Speaker 1: they can't really think through why they might want to

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Speaker 1: lie about what they saw. They're more concerned with pleasing

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Speaker 1: the questioner, and especially if it's a judge, answering the

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Speaker 1: questions as best they can. Also, Nancy, the wonderful thing

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Speaker 1: about kids is they are familiar with patterns. What do

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Speaker 1: the parents normally do, how does mommy normally look before

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Speaker 1: she gets into a bathtub, whatever the act patterns are.

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Speaker 1: They're able to provide the kind of perception that an

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Speaker 1: outside an object outsider never would be able to pick

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Speaker 1: up on. So they are their credible witnesses. They are

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Speaker 1: certainly capable witnesses, and in the eyes of many juries,

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Speaker 1: they're very competent witnesses as well. Speaking of children, I'm

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Speaker 1: looking at a photo right now, I just had to

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Speaker 1: count them, David matt I'm counting eight children in this

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Speaker 1: photo with her and doctor McNeil. Is that correct? Does

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Speaker 1: this woman have eight children? She looks like a runway model.

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Speaker 1: They did have eight children. The younger ones were adopted.

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Speaker 1: The daughter Aida, who was six at the time, had

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Speaker 1: found mom in bed in the tub. She was actually

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Speaker 1: their biological granddaughter whom they also adopted as their daughter. So, yes,

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Speaker 1: eight children in that photo. Climb stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: with a day in court hearing a witness actually testified,

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Speaker 1: Martin McNeill told her order her to flush all the

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Speaker 1: pills down the commode before anybody could see them. And

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Speaker 1: this was on April eleventh. It was just about an

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Speaker 1: hour after she had been pronounced dead. The family is

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Speaker 1: back at the home, meaning Martin was there, Damian his son,

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Speaker 1: and Eileen Hang who was on the stand, who was

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Speaker 1: the girlfriend of Damien, and she said, is there anything

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Speaker 1: I can do to help you? Anything at all? Martin

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Speaker 1: led them into the bathroom area. Bathroom area where there

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Speaker 1: were pills, and it was Martin that opened them. It

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Speaker 1: was Damien that counted them. Martin wrote it down. She watched,

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Speaker 1: and then Martin said, it's just too much for me

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Speaker 1: to watch because I don't think she took her blood

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Speaker 1: pressure medicine like she should have flushies down the toilet

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Speaker 1: and with one flush they were gone. Wow. Hearing me

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Speaker 1: speaking to my longtime colleague and friend over at CHELN,

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Speaker 1: Jean Cassaris, as we discussed the evidence in this case,

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Speaker 1: sounds like the son's girlfriend, Eileen Haying, states that she

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Speaker 1: was asked to flush down all of Michelle's pills as

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Speaker 1: a favor, a favor to who and why. She says,

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Speaker 1: one flush and they were all gone. I mean, Stephen

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Speaker 1: Lampley at Stephen Lampley dot com. Detective tampering with evidence

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Speaker 1: at a scene. That disturbs me, because how do you

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Speaker 1: know what those pills are? Why would he want them

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Speaker 1: flushed down the commode? Why wouldn't he want the cops

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Speaker 1: to see them? I mean, if she had taken too

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Speaker 1: many pain pills and gone underwater and died, why would

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Speaker 1: you want to get rid of all that evidence? Steve

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Speaker 1: Lampley well as in this case, he had actually asked

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Speaker 1: the surgeon who performed the surgery to prescribe additional medications

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Speaker 1: to his wife that normally, even the doctor that prescribed

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Speaker 1: them said normally these would not prescribe, apparently in an

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Speaker 1: attempt to over medicate her. Wait, okay, so Martin McNeil

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Speaker 1: asked for additional pain pills. Yes, and Gordon, what I read?

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Speaker 1: He asked the surgeon who was going he was going

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Speaker 1: to prescribe X number of prescriptions. I don't know how many,

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Speaker 1: there were, maybe two or three. And then he went

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Speaker 1: on to ask the physician who did surgery, would you

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Speaker 1: prescribe this or this as well, which which he did.

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Speaker 1: Listen to this, So she's been pronounced dead one hour

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Speaker 1: and he's going back doing a peeled count. What was

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Speaker 1: his reason for doing a peel count? Jane? Because he

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Speaker 1: was concerned that she wasn't taking the high blood pressure

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Speaker 1: medicine that she should be taking. She had just been

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Speaker 1: what about all those other peels pass on the comode

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Speaker 1: not mentioned? Not mentioned? So not take a listen to

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Speaker 1: what just happened in court? And Martin was seemed frustrated

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Speaker 1: and he's like, I don't want to do this anymore.

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Speaker 1: And then he asked me to flush the pills down

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Speaker 1: the toilet, and did you do that? Yes? Did that

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Speaker 1: request seem strange to you at the time, it did

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Speaker 1: seem strange. Yes. Why did you come play with that request?

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Speaker 1: Because he asked me too, and he just lost his

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Speaker 1: wife and I wanted to help. Okay, how many flushes

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Speaker 1: did it take to get the pills gone? Just one?

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Speaker 1: But I believe that they were in the plastic container.

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Speaker 1: So I just dumped the plastic container, the pills, and

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Speaker 1: the plasta container into the toilet. And that way, no

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Speaker 1: one could ever know what peels were prescribed and how

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Speaker 1: many peels were missing. That's what that says to me.

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Speaker 1: Of course, I have that suspicious mind, and you know,

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Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, that's something you can't get rid of. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you're the same way Chris Berry, Wendy.

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Speaker 1: Regardless of where I go or what I see, I

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Speaker 1: can't help it. I memorize license tags on cars, I

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Speaker 1: do mental descriptions of people, blah blah blah. It goes

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Speaker 1: on and on and on. I can't help but look

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Speaker 1: at the world this way. After years and years and

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Speaker 1: years of training in court, Why is this man counting

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Speaker 1: pills and directing someone else to flush them down the commode.

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Speaker 1: Why does he care if she didn't take her blood

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Speaker 1: pressure medicine, she's dead. Yeah, great points, Nancy. It sounds

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Speaker 1: like you would make a great trial witness. You're the

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Speaker 1: dream is that actually pays as attention and remembers all

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Speaker 1: of these details. But you're right, I mean, jurors get this.

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Speaker 1: Of course, you would be concerned with the deceased, with

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Speaker 1: your loved one, not these ancillary details which might only

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Speaker 1: be important if you were the one that committed the murder,

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Speaker 1: but otherwise wouldn't be. You would be more concerned with emotions,

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Speaker 1: with feelings, with working through the trauma of what have

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Speaker 1: just happened, rather than, like you say, counting pills, whether

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Speaker 1: somebody had taken blood pressure medication. All of that would

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Speaker 1: come far afterwards, after the grieving process has been completed.

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Speaker 1: You know, I got a bigger problem. But hold on,

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Speaker 1: let me go back to Chris Sperry with me. Retired

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Speaker 1: chief medical Examiner doctor Chris Berry. I don't like the

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Speaker 1: sound of it, Chris, about somebody getting rid of pills

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Speaker 1: on the same Why would he do that? He's not

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Speaker 1: only a lawyer. He's a doctor like you. Oh, I

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Speaker 1: don't like the sound that would either. I mean, you're

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Speaker 1: absolutely correct. Number one, he's destroying potential evidence because that's

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Speaker 1: the numbers of pills, how many have been taken, how

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Speaker 1: many are left him. That's crucial information for the police

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Speaker 1: and the medical examiner. And also notice he's involving someone else.

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Speaker 1: I mean to me, this just screams that he is

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Speaker 1: not only destroying evidence, but he's creating an alibi by

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Speaker 1: having someone, an uninvolved person with him to participate in this,

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Speaker 1: to somehow established legitimacy for what he is doing. Well,

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Speaker 1: listen to this, dater Sperry, I need you on this

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Speaker 1: because according to neighbors, they Russian and they see McNeill

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Speaker 1: working to revive his wife. But they say McNeill was

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Speaker 1: performing a quote bizarrely ineffective CPR on Michelle. What could

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Speaker 1: that mean? A bizarrely in effective How are you supposed

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Speaker 1: to perform CPR? I mean I learned it when I

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Speaker 1: was a camp counselor. Okay, but that was a long

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Speaker 1: time ago. What should he have done? He should have

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Speaker 1: been pushing on the chests in the middle of the chest,

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Speaker 1: well back it up, back it up. Don't you have

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Speaker 1: to go down on a hard surface. You can't do

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Speaker 1: it on a bed. Didn't you learn anything from the

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Speaker 1: Michael Jackson case. Well, yes, that's exactly it. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: Thanks for granted. I take joy in correcting and MD

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Speaker 1: because it never happens ever. Okay, go ahead. Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: like I said, let me enjoy my moment. It's the details.

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Speaker 1: It's the detail. Well, no, you put the you put

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Speaker 1: the person on a hard surface. Yes, you can't. You

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Speaker 1: can't do CPR on a bed effectively at all. You

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Speaker 1: have to have them on the floor to start with.

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Speaker 1: And then you have to push on the front of

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Speaker 1: the chest, the center of the chest. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: you push hard enough that you're pumping blood, making the

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Speaker 1: heart pump blood. But of course you don't want to

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Speaker 1: push too hard. But that's difficult unless you're a whole COGAN.

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Speaker 1: And during intermittently you stop and give breath, that is,

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Speaker 1: you give rescue breath to the person. So usually it's

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Speaker 1: about fifteen pumps and then two breaths and alterating that

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Speaker 1: back and forth to try to get air into the

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Speaker 1: person's lungs and to keep the blood circulating as best

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Speaker 1: as possible to get oxygen to the tissues. And this

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Speaker 1: is something that you do and repeat. Well, listen to this.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of this? Because, according to witnesses,

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Speaker 1: doctor McNeil had Michelle slumped down in the bathtub still

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Speaker 1: and was quote performing CPR on her as she slumped

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Speaker 1: over in the bathtub. You know, wouldn't you at least

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Speaker 1: lay or flat in the bathtub and jumped down into

423
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: the bathtub and straddle her. I mean, again, I'm not

424
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: an MD, but I think that's what I would try

425
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: to do if I can't get the person out of

426
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 1: the tub. I mean, you should see my son Chris.

427
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 1: You wouldn't believe it. He's now almost five eight, he's eleven.

428
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: I call him my big horse affectionately, of course. And

429
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: I mean, if I had to perform cprn somebody I

430
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 1: couldn't lift, I jump in the tub and straddle I'm

431
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: gonna try it that way. But she slumped over nobody,

432
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: you know. The neighbor remembers it very well. Yeah, that's

433
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 1: that's just that sounds so strange. You know, especially if

434
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: he's a trained physician, he's going to know that you

435
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 1: have to have the person flat and if he can't

436
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 1: get his wife out of the bathtub, well, you're right,

437
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 1: you get in there with her. It's a big, a

438
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: big tub, and there's space for everybody. Okay, so we

439
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: already know he was not getting the adequate chess compression

440
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 1: because of the angle of Michelle. Even a neighbor untrained

441
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: in medical procedures knew that. Okay, Karen start, Are you

442
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: sitting down right now? I need to know, of course. Okay,

443
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 1: you better lay down for this. Listen. Your mother was

444
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: had a funeral on the saturday following her down. Yes.

445
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: Following the funeral, was there a gathering with family for

446
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: a lunch? Yes? Was your father present? Yes? Did you

447
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: observe his demeanor at that luncheon? Yes? What was he doing?

448
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: He was making jokes about being single and just laughing

449
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: and made me sick. I've left crime stories with Nancy Grace.

450
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: Your mother was had a funeral on the saturday following

451
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 1: her death. Yes. Following the funeral, was there gathering with

452
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: family for a lunch? Yes? Was your father present? Yes?

453
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: What was he doing? He was making jokes about being

454
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: single and just laughing and made me sick. I've left

455
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: you just heard Michelle McNeill's daughter, describing her father joking

456
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: at her mom's funeral quote, I'm a single man. Now

457
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: what now? I know that defense attorneys would have a

458
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: fuel day with me arguing that's probative. But Karen Stark,

459
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: what do you make of doctor Martin McNeil, doctor Anna Lawyer.

460
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: He's the one that wants her to get a facelift.

461
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: You've seen her pictures, Karen Star and everybody. You can

462
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: see her photos atcrimeline dot com. She's gorgeous. She doesn't

463
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: need a facelift. Now that's me on the outside looking in.

464
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: He's the one that makes her get a facelift. He's

465
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 1: the one that overprescribes, gets a lot, a lot, a

466
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: lot of painkillers. He's the one that finds the body

467
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: along with his little girl. He's the one that performs

468
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: the fake CPR on her. And now he's laughing about

469
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 1: being single at her funer roll. Well, Nancy, he's a psychopath.

470
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: So none of this is the least bit surprising to me.

471
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: I don't even have to sit down. Psychopaths cannot form

472
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: emotional attachments or feel real empathy for others, so and

473
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: they often mimic emotions. So he doesn't even have any feelings.

474
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: He doesn't know in this case, to pretend that he

475
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: should be feeling bad about what happened, He's going to

476
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 1: totally disregard the fact that this is a funeral and

477
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: he's narcissistic. So he's going to talk about being single

478
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 1: and what's next for him. Okay, So Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor,

479
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: author of Red Flags, way in on that place. I mean,

480
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: at the funeral. I guess it could be argued that

481
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: he was out of his mind with grief. Yeah. That's

482
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: a really tough one though, because after a funeral, after

483
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: we've just been discussing the death of a loved one,

484
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: and they're no doubt where people sharing memories, to be

485
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: discussing the fact that you are now a single man

486
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: is inappropriate. However, you look at it even and I

487
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: appreciate Karen's comments, I think they're right on the money.

488
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: That would be something a jury would pick up on,

489
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: probably more than physical evidence, that how do you behave

490
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: right after suffering this type of a loss, and what

491
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: does that say about your state of mind? This is

492
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 1: very powerful evidence and it's kind of instinctive evidence that

493
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 1: everyone knows is wrong, and everyone knows is suspicious, and

494
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: that is exactly what you have here. It's almost as

495
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: if he couldn't contain himself from expressing the way he

496
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: really felt about the death. Take a listen to our

497
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: friends Oxygen. A few days after her mother's death, Alexis

498
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: starts piecing things together. I thought about phone calls at

499
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 1: bizarre hours. My mom was concerned that my father was

500
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: having an affair, him giving her too much medication. After

501
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: the procedure, all of my mom's things that were in

502
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: the room were now gone. It was like a bolt

503
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: of lightning. It's going right through me. You were hearing

504
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: the daughter looking back on what was happening around the

505
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 1: time of her mom's death. You know, to you, Stephen

506
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: Lampley detective at Stephen Lampley dot com. This woman, I

507
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: don't think they've even had her funeral yet, and he's

508
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: cleaning out all of her stuff and getting rid of it,

509
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: corning it off to goodwill. Yeah, that's that's an indicator

510
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: everything else being equal as long through the investigation and everything,

511
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: and then you have somebody show up at the funeral

512
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 1: and then go home and start cleaning house. Flag. Yeah,

513
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,719
Speaker 1: red flag. When do you can add that into your

514
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: book Red Flag. Stephen Lampley and Dave Mack. I don't

515
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: know if you heard the daughter, but didn't I hear

516
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: her say something about affair? Aren't you leaving out another

517
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: piece of the puzzle, David Mack, Nancy, there was another.

518
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: There were a number of affairs, but the one she's

519
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: referred to one number of affairs, A number of affairs?

520
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: Why was she even still with him? Why not just

521
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: marry the yard dog out front and the lounging on

522
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 1: the porch. I mean a number of affairs, Nancy. You

523
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: know as well as I do that most of us

524
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: don't know the inner workings of a marriage between a

525
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: couple and the reasons they may show. Dave mac But

526
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: I know what af ai R means. That typically means

527
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: your husband is sleeping around. And as I always say,

528
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: open marriage, open casket. That's what I always say to David.

529
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: But long story short, a number of affairs. When you

530
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: say that, I guarantee you it's not Michelle McNeill having

531
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: a number of affairs. It's doctor Martin McNeill. Does the

532
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: name jipsy ring a bell in your mind? Dave Mack, Yes, ma'am.

533
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: She was the main affair. She came up right after.

534
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: Do you want to deal with when when they actually

535
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: brought her into this whole thing, because it's sickening down. Okay,

536
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,399
Speaker 1: yeah again, please care and start. You're very delicate, laid

537
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: down for this place, all right. Gypsy was one of

538
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: the affairs, well, actually was the affair that was going

539
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: on at the time Michelle was murdered. And at the funeral,

540
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:27,479
Speaker 1: where Martin was acting inappropriately, there was mention of needing

541
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: a nanny to help out with the younger kids, and

542
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 1: he presented this person, Gypsy, as somebody that needs to

543
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: be the nanny to help me care for the children.

544
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: But according to the kids, she Gypsy prepared one meal

545
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: and then spent her time at night not downstairs in

546
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: her nanny room, but upstairs in daddy's room with the

547
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: door shut. He had been involved. Martin had been involved

548
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 1: with this Gypsy for some time. Doctor Chris Berry, how

549
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: many times do you see a woman end up dead

550
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: a wife and then you find out the husband having

551
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: an affair. An affair does not a killer make, But

552
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 1: if you look back on wives ending up dead at

553
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: the hands of their husbands, very often you find affairs,

554
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 1: So I guess the converse would be true. It's the

555
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: same old story, Doctor Chris Sperry. It definitely is. It

556
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: shows that there has been planning, very careful planning, in fact,

557
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 1: planning to exit the marriage. And because the man is

558
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 1: already taking up with someone else, you know, abruptly out

559
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: of nowhere, seemingly, and so all of this makes the

560
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: death of the wife very, very very suspicious. Uh, there's

561
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: there are no coincidences that you know in the world,

562
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: and I don't think this is a coincidence at all.

563
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: This this screams planning to me, not just happenstance. Take

564
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: a listen to this. He said he gave her some OxyS,

565
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 1: some sleeping feels, and then um got her to get

566
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 1: in the bathtub. Did he say what he did next?

567
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 1: Later on, he just said he had to help her out.

568
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 1: And I asked him what that was, and he said

569
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: he held her head under the waterfall a little while.

570
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: He said that she was in the way, that she

571
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 1: wanted the house and the kids. He said they couldn't

572
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: prove that he did anything. Wow, you're hearing from a

573
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:25,479
Speaker 1: then friend of doctor Martin McNeil. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor author.

574
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: I've read the flags on Amazon. You know what, sometimes

575
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 1: you got to go to hell to get your witnesses

576
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: to put the devil in jail. How many times have

577
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: I had to tell that to a jury when I

578
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: had a stinky witness? Long story short, Wendy, Why do

579
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 1: people blab? Why can't they just shut the hay up? Yeah?

580
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: You know, Nancy. Part of the way in which many

581
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,760
Speaker 1: cases are proven is exactly like this. This is obviously

582
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 1: after the fact, or before the fact, whatever it is,

583
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. People tend to talk about what they did.

584
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: And I'm sure Karen and the other psychologists that join

585
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 1: us on the show can explain exactly why that is

586
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: human nature to even talk about the sins and the

587
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: crimes you've committed. Let people do it, and law enforcement

588
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: and good law enforcement techniques take advantage of that. And

589
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: that's exactly what happened here In case you're wondering, listen, well, Visury,

590
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: having reviewed the evidence in testimony in the case I

591
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: had defendant as to Calhoun murder guilty to obstruction justice guilty.

592
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 1: Martin McNeill, the doctor and lawyer, found guilty of murdering wife,

593
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 1: Michelle McNeill. But that's not the end of the story,

594
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: Dave Matt what's the final end of the story? Martin

595
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 1: McNeil was actually he apparently committed suicide while in prison.

596
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: He was found in the yard area unresponsive. He had

597
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 1: threatened suicide in the past. That was his go to

598
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 1: response whenever he was caught doing something, and apparently he

599
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: was successful once he was in prison. This guy, doctor

600
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,800
Speaker 1: Martin McNeill, I don't know how he kept practicing. Madison

601
00:37:55,360 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: had been thrown out of Brigham Young Health Center as

602
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 1: of unprofessional conduct misdiagnoses allegations of sex assault's pornography, had

603
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 1: affairs with multiple people. One of the women said she

604
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: was dating a quote serial killer because McNeil had told

605
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: her he had killed his brother in a bathtub and

606
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: tried to kill his mother when he was young. I mean,

607
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 1: I don't even have time to read the list of

608
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: offenses this guy got away with, and he took him

609
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 1: all to his grave. I got one thing to say,

610
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: good riddance. Nancy Gray's crime story signing off Goodbye Friend,