1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: I've never told you protection of I Heart Radio, and 3 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: it is time for another book club, and for this one, UM, 4 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: since as we record this, the US has been rocked 5 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: by I think it's ten days now of protest over 6 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: the murder of George Floyd, a black man, by white 7 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: police officers. And Floyd is one in a long line 8 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 1: of police brutality that left black people dead and without justice. 9 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: And right now there are curfews and cities across the US. 10 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: The military and National Guard are deploying violence, UM, and 11 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: using things like tear gas and concussion grenades and rubber bullets. 12 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: So we should add that it's not just in the U. S. 13 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: There's so many protests going around the world in solidarity 14 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,680 Speaker 1: with the US, with the Black Lives Matter movement, including 15 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: the fact that Greece actually just burnt down the US embassy. UM. 16 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: Of course, we do not condone burning down with buildings, 17 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:21,559 Speaker 1: but I think it does as a lot to where 18 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: we are as a country in the view of the world. UM. 19 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: And Yes, for today's book club, we are discussing white fragility. 20 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: White so hard for white people to talk about racism 21 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: by Robin DeAngelo with a foreword by Michael Eric Dyson. 22 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: And this was actually recommended to me by my slash 23 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: our Andy I guess Um therapists and one of the 24 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: criterias when we were choosing a therapist which we decided 25 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: to have during our first recordings together, which was a 26 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: trauma series essentially about me Too era and just sexual 27 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: assault and childhood trauma for both of us. UM. One 28 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: of my criteria areas was that it had to be uh, 29 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: someone with the clinical level and a woman of color. Um. 30 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: I've talked about it previously on the show of have 31 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: been struggling with my identity as a woman of a color, 32 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: as a Korean woman who was adopted by a white family. 33 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: And though I love my family so much, I do 34 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: you all, and they have been good to me. They're 35 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: a loving, kind family, UM, but I learned pretty early 36 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 1: on that as a conservative religion Southern family, they were 37 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: and are ingrained with a lot of racial bias, which 38 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: has taken a pretty heavy toll for me, especially now 39 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: and not only having a self loathing because I was 40 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: a woman of color, um, but also undoing some of 41 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: that trauma, some of that narrative in my mind. UM. 42 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: So she recommended that we read this, which was published 43 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: in two thousand and eighteen, specifically so I could talk 44 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: to my family, UM and kind of trying to figure 45 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: out how to undo some of the things that happened 46 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: in my own mindset, as well as hopefully maybe help 47 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: them as well. But I will say it's a long road, um. 48 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: And this book actually has become, of course, a New 49 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 1: York Times bestseller. D' angelo is a white woman who 50 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:17,119 Speaker 1: received a PhD in multicultural education and two honorary doctorates, 51 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: and her focus has and is in whiteness studies and 52 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: critical discourse. So she coined the term white fragility in 53 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: two thousand eleven. So I think it's important to note 54 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: that part of the reason we are doing this book 55 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: is because it was kind of a homework for me. Yes, yes, um. 56 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: And D'Angelo wrote the book as a white woman, primarily 57 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: for white people, and she addresses this right off the bat, 58 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: recognizing she is only one piece of this puzzle and 59 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: certainly not the only voice that should be heard. From 60 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: the reading guide on d'angelo's website, This book and its 61 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: arguments build on anti racism scholarship and activism that people 62 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: of color have written for generation. That scholarship has been 63 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: fundamental in the ability of the author to explicate white fragility. 64 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: Use this text as a starting point rather than the 65 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: ending point to educate yourself on racism. There are many 66 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: suggestions for engaging with the work of people of color 67 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: and the resources for continuing education section of the book 68 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: so yes, at the end she has a great list 69 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: of all these resources for continued reading, continued education. Right. Essentially, 70 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: it's a historical examination of racism in the U S 71 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: and why white people are so seemingly unable to talk 72 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: about it. Um And I think I love that our 73 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: audience is ready and open. We've they've been very receptive 74 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: and really ready to do this that we did had 75 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: a couple of comments in there which do once again 76 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: show how automatically defensive people can be, especially in the 77 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: white community, and I will say also in the non 78 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:56,799 Speaker 1: black people of color community. UM. So it's told partially 79 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: through anecdotes from d'angelo's personal lives, some from her experience 80 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: conducting and racist training and education seminars, along with historical 81 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: contexts and examples providing tools and tips for how to 82 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: do anti racial work. Yes, so let's start with a 83 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: definition um from di'angelo's website. White fragility is a state 84 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, 85 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include the 86 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: outward display of emotions such as anger, fear, and guilt, 87 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: and behaviors such as argumentation, silence, and leaving the stress 88 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: inducing situation. These behaviors, in turn, function to reinstate white 89 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 1: racial equilibrium. This book explicates the dynamics of white fragility 90 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: and how we might build our capacity and the ongoing 91 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: work towards racial justice. Right. So, white people are insulated 92 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: from racial stress and viewed as the norm, and everyone 93 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: who isn't white, and we're gonna say particularly black people, 94 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: as it should be stated here are a deviation from 95 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: that nor. This creates an entitled expectation of comfort for 96 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: white people and a lack of ability to handle any 97 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: racial discomfort or stress. This prioritizing and protection of white 98 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: comfort over the safety of people of color and again 99 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 1: particularly black people, is present in all of our most 100 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: powerful institutions, as we can see today, government media, advertising, textbooks, policing. 101 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: The list goes on and on, and this all words 102 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: to create structures of racism and white supremacy, the very 103 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: things this country was built on and holds it up 104 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: in place. Because of this, white people are socialized in 105 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 1: the system that fosters a deeply internalized sense of superiority 106 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: that they are either unaware of or would never admit 107 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 1: or have a hard time admitting. White people America rarely, 108 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: if ever, feel a sense of not belonging racially. Studies 109 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: show that white children pick up a sense of white 110 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: superiority as early as preschool. Preschool. Yeah. This book opens 111 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: by laying out to foundational pieces of white fragility, individualism, 112 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: and the idea of racelessness. Individualism teaches us to exempt 113 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: ourselves from systemic racism, to believe we are the exception 114 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: to the rule, that failure is not due to structures 115 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: but due to the individual. And we hear this all 116 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: the time from right people. Right, I built my business 117 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: from the ground up with a million dollar loan from 118 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: my father. How dare you say I was privileged? My 119 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: family immigrated here in this whatever year and they were 120 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: discriminated against. Thin White people are taught not to talk 121 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: about race and that their race doesn't matter other people's 122 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: races do, but their's don't. This is a luxury people 123 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: of other races don't have to have your race received 124 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: without any negative attached to it. Is a privilege and 125 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: one only white people get in this country. Instead of 126 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: excusing yourself from racism because of your particular experience, should 127 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: try to reframe it instead. How did that experience shape 128 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: you while also being white? Right? So, um, we kind 129 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: of want to get down to some of the specifics 130 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: she talked about, which one of them is the construction 131 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: of racism and difference between prejudice, racial discrimination, and racism. 132 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: So obviously, beneath the skin, there's no biological race like gender, 133 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: race is a construct. One bill to justify slavery in 134 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: the United States, where all men were supposed to be 135 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: quote created equal, there had to be a reason and 136 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: created that black people were lesser. And not only that, 137 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: but the genocide enforced removal of Indigenous people and the 138 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: theft of Mexican land had to be justified as well. Um. 139 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: Obviously we see that as a restructuring with Columbus Day 140 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: that we are now at least openly openly talking about 141 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: the reasoning behind this was largely capitalistic and economic, which 142 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: I know is a big conversation that we're having to 143 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: talk about today. Thomas Jefferson asked scientists to find proof 144 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 1: that black people were inferior and find proof quote proof 145 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: that is, they did. Um and these findings as a 146 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: scientific fact with the century. She quotes Tana has Coats quote, 147 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: but race is the child of racism, not the father. 148 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna say that again because I don't know. 149 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: It took me a couple of reads for those to stick. 150 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: But race is the child of racism and not the father. Yes. 151 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: And if you think of things like that melting pot 152 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: that we're so proud of that you know, when I 153 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 1: was an elementary school, whole songs about it. Um, When 154 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: you really think about it, what Americans, white Americans are 155 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: asking for is European white people to assimilate, to become white. 156 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: And we can see this in the whole idea of 157 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: passing as white. Um. And that keeps that helps keep capitalistic, 158 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: white supremacist structures in place by dividing the working class 159 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: poor by race. Another one of the main problems the 160 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: book points out is that a lot of people, a 161 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: lot of white people, are laboring under the incorrect definition 162 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: of racism, along with prejudice and racial discrimination. Yeah, so 163 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: let's start with how she defines prejudice, which she is quote, 164 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: pre judgment about another person based on the social groups 165 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 1: to which that person belongs. Prejudice consists of thoughts and feelings, 166 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: including stereotypes, attitudes, and generalizations that are based on little 167 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: or no experience and then are projected onto everyone from 168 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,719 Speaker 1: that group, something that all people have. And she does 169 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: explain the fact that automatically, if you're listening, if you're 170 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: in a community, you're gonna have prejudice because you're going 171 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: to be told something about a group of people, whether 172 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: or not you want to say you believe it or not. 173 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: So again, since we've been taught this is bad, we 174 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 1: try to avoid this reality at all costs, and going on. 175 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: Discrimination is action based on prejudice, like ridicule, exclusions, slander, 176 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: and violence, and it could be seemed very subtle, like 177 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: not interacting with someone or trying to avoid someone. Right. 178 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: On the other hand, um quote, when a racial group's 179 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: collective prejudice is backed by the power of legal authority 180 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: and institutional control, it is transformed into racism, a far 181 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: reaching system that functions independently from the intentions or self 182 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: images of individual actors, meaning that just because you have 183 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: good intentions, it is the default of society and reproduces automatically. 184 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: That is a quote again, um. Racism is also one directional. 185 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: It does not benefit white people one day and black 186 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: people another because of the institutionalized nature of structural racism. 187 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: In this way, in the US, only white people can 188 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: be racist, and of course the status quote benefits white people. 189 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: This set of advantages is what we call white privilege. 190 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 1: A lot of white people have a knee jerk defense 191 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 1: to this, which we'll get into more later. That basically 192 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: boils down to but I struggled, I worked. Um. White 193 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: privilege does not dismiss that. But it just says that 194 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: white people don't face the same obstacles based on race. 195 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: They don't face any obstacles based on race. This is 196 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: also why reverse racism is not a thing. And here's 197 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 1: another quote from the book. Reverse is an interesting term. 198 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: Why not just say racism is racism? Reverse suggests it 199 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: is going in the wrong direction. People who complain about 200 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: reverse racism never seemed to complain about racism. Otherwise, these 201 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 1: are not racial justice advocates right, And I know she 202 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: also posses in terms of the fact that prejudice and 203 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: racism was again are two different things, and that yes, 204 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: all people can be prejudice. So we're gonna put that 205 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: there again, Yes, very clear. Yea. And so in two 206 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: thousand nineteen she told the Guardian quote, racism is a 207 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: white problem. It was constructed and created by white people, 208 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: and the ultimate responsibility lies with white people. For too long, 209 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: we've looked at it as if it were someone else's problem, 210 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: as if it was created in a vacuum. And I 211 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: want to push against that narrative. Um. And you can 212 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 1: tell she's had to work with some very angry white 213 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: people in her day. Um. And if you, I'm sure 214 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: I have experienced this, if you've actually come to the 215 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: point of being able to be confrontational, you have also 216 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: probably heard the pushback. So she says, quote, if your 217 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: definition of a racist is someone who holds consciousnesslike of 218 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: people because of race, then I agree that it is 219 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: offensive for me to suggest that you are racist when 220 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: I don't know you. I also agree that if this 221 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 1: is your definition of racism and you are against racism, 222 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: then you are not racist. Now breathe. I'm not using 223 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: this definition of racism, and I'm not saying that you 224 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: are immoral. Quote yes, uh so you can see just 225 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: in that tone of that she's had to be like 226 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: okay to diffuse a situation exactly a lot of times. 227 00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: And I'm not gonna lie. I feel kind of uncomfortable 228 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: and being a part of this conversation because I don't 229 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: want to be that woman of color here is saying 230 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: I'm accusing you of something like this is this makes 231 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: me uncomfortable just to talk about it, even though it's 232 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: a book club that I'm talking with people that I 233 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it. And yeah, it's a 234 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 1: whole thing. And I it's like it's this level of 235 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: where we are and trying to meet and satisfy the 236 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: status quo, which is white supremacy. And we're not saying 237 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: that as a negative, We're just saying that as a 238 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: sense of measurement. Yeah, And I mean, I'm going to 239 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: talk about this more at the end, but ah, there 240 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: are other factors that you get all tied up into 241 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: this too, right of like being women in particularly women 242 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: from the South. There there is that whole like don't 243 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: rock the boat um kind of mentality that we are 244 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: also socialized into. So yeah, um, there is a lot 245 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: to unpack. We have a lot to work to do, um, 246 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: and we will continue to do some of that right now. 247 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: But first we're gonna pause for a quick break for 248 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, and we're back, Thank you sponsor, 249 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: and we're back with a note on white supremacy. Because 250 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: most people think of KKK members or something along those 251 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: lines when we think of white supremacy, but D'Angelo clarifies 252 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: quote for sociologists and those involved in current racial justice movements, however, 253 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: white supremacy is a descriptive and useful term to capture 254 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: the all encompassing centrality and assume superiority of people to 255 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: find and perceived as white, and the practices based on 256 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: this assumption. White supremacy in this context does not refer 257 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: to individual white people and their individual intentions are actions 258 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: be to an overarching political, economic, and social system of domination. 259 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: Because the United States is slash was perhaps the largest 260 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: global superpower, white supremacy was passed around worldwide. She quoted 261 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: another ton of house Coats essay the Case Reparations to 262 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: ignore the fact that one of the oldest republics in 263 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: the world was erected on a foundation of white supremacy. 264 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: To pretend that the problems of a dual society are 265 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: the same as the problems of an unregulated capitalism is 266 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: to cover the sin of national plunder with the sin 267 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: of national lying. The lie ignores the fact that reducing 268 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: American poverty and ending white supremacy are not the same. 269 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: White supremacy is not mainly the work of hot headed 270 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: demagogues or a matter of false consciousness, but a force 271 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: so fundamental to America that is difficult to imagine the 272 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: country without it. David Duke's god son at Derek Black, 273 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: a white nationalist organizer, once said, my whole talk was 274 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: the fact that you could run as Republicans and say 275 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: things like we need to shut down immigration, we need 276 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: to find affirmative action, we need to end globalism, and 277 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: you could win these positions maybe as long as you 278 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: didn't get out it as a white nationalist and get 279 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: all the controversy that comes along with it. And we 280 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: see a lot of this right now. Yep, I was 281 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: gonna say, he's not long he um. So the author 282 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: also asked white people to try to remember the first 283 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: time they were aware of race, and then to look 284 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: back on whether or not their families had friends of color, 285 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: and what made a good neighborhood, a good school and 286 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 1: who lived and went to these respective places. And as 287 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: a kid, what did you glean from that information? As 288 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: children were taught not to talk about it? That is shameful. 289 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: Why would it be shameful? What does that teach us? 290 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 1: And I think one of the prime examples right now 291 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: is the controversy that's happening with Nickelodeon. They aired a 292 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: very powerful ad in which they were just silence and 293 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 1: just breathing for the amount of time that George Floyd 294 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: was unable to breathe. And they got complaints about how 295 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: this made their children uncomfortable and I will say specifically 296 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: white children and it was too dark for them. And 297 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: Nickelodeon had a great reply and you know, this is 298 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: a hard subject, but many children face these hardships essentially, 299 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,360 Speaker 1: and this should be taught um And yeah, I think 300 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: it was an awesome message. But it does show once 301 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: again who in this country is privileged enough not to 302 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: have to worry about it, right right, and just say 303 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 1: this is too traumatizing, which was a lovely thought. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 304 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 1: I've definitely seen that argument play out online of uh, well, 305 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: we don't have the luxury of not having this conversation 306 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: with our children. I've seen black people saying that, and 307 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: it's true. So need to need to be aware of 308 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: that privilege and talk about it. Um. And So when 309 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:02,880 Speaker 1: it comes to defensive response as white people have when 310 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: told they are complicit in racism, there are two main 311 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,159 Speaker 1: ones that the book breaks it down into, and the 312 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: first one is color blindness. We've all probably heard jokes 313 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: about this one before. Uh. This idea originated in the 314 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties when people were seeing images on TV of 315 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: white cops attacking black men, women, and children with police 316 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 1: dogs and fire hoses. Again, seems like times haven't changed 317 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: that much, um, and these people, white people did not 318 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 1: want to be associated with blatantly racist acts. And then, 319 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: on top of that, after MLK gave a speech about 320 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 1: wanting to be identified by the content of his character 321 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: rather than the color of his skin, white people jumped 322 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: on it like Okay, well, if I don't see ray, 323 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: it's the problem was solved. But by doing so, white 324 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: people are racing and refusing the reality of people of color, 325 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: specifically black people. It projects the white experience onto others. 326 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: It teaches and allows white people to ignore the underlying 327 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 1: s stem of white supremacy. Right in d'angelists specifically mentions 328 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: white progressives, writing quote, I believe that white progressives cause 329 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: the most daily damage to people of color. To the 330 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: degree that white progressives think we have arrived, we will 331 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: put all our energy into making sure that others see 332 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: us as having arrived. Or today, I guess we could 333 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: say woke. Um, white progressives can't face the fact that 334 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: they are in collusion with the system they purport to hate. 335 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: She also disagrees with the claim that young people are 336 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: less racist, and use several statistics to make that point, 337 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 1: including a very disheartening one. Many white millennials believed America 338 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: was post racial after the election of Barack Obama. Obviously 339 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: before Donald Trump, but still yeah, yeah, I mean we've 340 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: heard that that sentiment in jokes around Oh Obama's president, 341 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:54,479 Speaker 1: racism is over and this type of progressive racism are 342 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: aversive racism, as d'An angelo terms it, can be seen 343 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. Um using coded language like 344 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: herb in looking around a white workplace and justifying it 345 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: by saying black people don't apply things like that, and 346 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: this lets white people deny that they were talking about 347 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: race if they're confronted. She also goes into uh front 348 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 1: stage and backstage racism here, meaning that when white people 349 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: are alone with friends, they might be more comfortable making 350 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: offensive racial comments, usually through a humor heavy quotes, which 351 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: leads to something calls white solidarity. Um yeah. So essentially 352 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: the fact that white people generally don't call out the 353 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 1: racism of other white people, typically to preserve the peace. Um, 354 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: And I'm gonna I'm not gonna lie. As a person 355 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: who has been in a white group, I may have 356 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: been guilty of that as well. This is another way 357 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: of keeping racism in place, and there are rewards for 358 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: doing it. You're seen as more likable, easier to get 359 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: along with, and in certain instances this can help you 360 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: progress in life. And it's also a weaponized in terms 361 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 1: of nostalgia, the good old days were only good for 362 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 1: white people and particularly white men. We view young white 363 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: people who commit crimes as having quote a hard time 364 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: rock Turner keeps coming up during our current conversation around race, 365 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: re employed the opposite mind frame for young black people 366 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: white people are taught directly or indirectly that they lose 367 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,479 Speaker 1: nothing of value by not having people of color in 368 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: their lives, and that is fine and natural. And this 369 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: is very very damaging message and very key to upholding 370 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: white supremacy. So if we look at the other defensive 371 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 1: response other than color blind, um, we have color celebrate. 372 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: And this includes justifications and deflections like I'm marched in 373 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: the sixties, so I can't be racist, or I work 374 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: with a diverse group of people, so I can't be racist. 375 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: Or we adopted a child from different country, I lived 376 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 1: as a minority in a different country for a while, 377 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: things like that, right, And I think we wanted to 378 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,439 Speaker 1: just interject here because I know this is specific to 379 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: white women or white people in general, but this is 380 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: also something that has happened in the non black people 381 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: of color communities as well, where you see as if 382 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: you're celebrating not only white culture by making fun of yourself. 383 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: And I am very guilty of that, in which I 384 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: think I've thought about it before. When I first started 385 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 1: college and trying to get established as a person, I 386 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: hung around with a lot of white kids in which 387 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: I would make jokes of myself of being that Asian 388 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: whatever Asian joke or stereotype that they needed to be comfortable, 389 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: And oftentimes I would get rewarded by saying, Oh, cool, cool, 390 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: You're one of the cool, You're one of those cool people. 391 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:40,719 Speaker 1: You're you're you're cool like that, you can hang like that. 392 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: And so it was a freedom to go ahead and 393 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: joke about my culture. And even though I died a 394 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: little inside, I will say that way, every time I 395 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: heard it, I kept going with it because I wanted 396 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: to make sure that the white kids were comfortable with me, 397 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: and I had to prove my worth and being able 398 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: to hang with white people. So that's definitely a narrative 399 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: that obviously she won't get into because she is directing 400 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 1: her conversation at uh the white community. But I think 401 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: it's good to know that that does happen a lot. 402 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: And not only is it my responsibility and I still 403 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 1: feel guilty for claiming my heritage and not disparaging myself, 404 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: but it is also of others to make sure that 405 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: we can hold each other up. But that's a whole 406 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: other conversation I know, yes, one that we should have someday. 407 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: Um one of racism's most adaptive insidious tools is something 408 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: D'Angelo calls the good bad binary. If a person is good, 409 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: they can't be racist. That racism is conscious. It's a 410 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: biased act made by bad people. It's a crime that 411 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: you have to commit. Going back to the point about 412 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 1: white progressives, that this narrative works there too. I think 413 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: racism is bad. Therefore I am not racist and do 414 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: not have to do anti racist work. She recommends instead 415 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: viewing racism as a spectrum, with one end being most 416 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: racists and other being at least racist, and the work 417 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: is never done. You're always working towards least racist, right um. 418 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: De'angelo also devotes a chapter entirely to anti blackness, calling 419 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: blackness the ultimate other in the white mind, and many 420 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,959 Speaker 1: experts believe that a lot of stereotypes white people project 421 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: onto black people are the ones that prefert actual reality 422 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,880 Speaker 1: that white people don't want to see in themselves. For instance, 423 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: the stereotype that black people are dangerous when white people 424 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: are the ones in acting violence against black people. Another 425 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 1: example given is the white sentiment around affirmative action, due 426 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 1: to the belief that it unfairly benefits black people, when 427 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: in fact, white women have been the primary beneficiaries. There's 428 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: a lot of misinformation among white people about affirmative action, 429 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: and common believe that it is quote unfair, when in 430 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: fact it's only an attempt to give qualified minorities the 431 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,160 Speaker 1: same opportunity. Is a way of hiding from racial as 432 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: trauma and victim blaming. We see it in the harmful 433 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: and gross narrative quote ungrateful black people, welfare queens, or 434 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: Colin Kaepernick Nillingen protests, or the response to having President 435 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 1: Obama in the Oval office. And here's another quote from 436 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 1: the book to put it bluntly, I believe that the 437 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 1: white collective fundamentally hates blackness for what it reminds us of. 438 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: That we are capable and guilty of perpetrating immeasurable harm, 439 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,479 Speaker 1: and that our gains come through the subjugation of others. Uh. 440 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: The white savior plays a role in all this too. 441 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: And I was thinking about it as well, the whole 442 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: Southern narrative of but they were nice to their slaves 443 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: or whatever it's like, or the slaves sold themselves if 444 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: soul themselves, which I just actually heard not too long ago. Yeah, 445 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: those kinds of things, right. Reading this has made me 446 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: think a lot on how non black women of color 447 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 1: also fall into this trap of comparing or other and 448 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: of course it's not just women, um, but it is 449 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 1: a way of scapegoating to make sure to not be 450 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: at the bottom. For the lack of better terms, UH, 451 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: the narrative that there's only a small amount of space 452 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: and there is a performative measure in making sure to 453 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: be in the good graces of white culture. And if 454 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: we believe white culture is the ultimate slash supreme goal, 455 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: then we must follow suit and push against the other 456 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: or the enemy. To put it even more bluntly, we 457 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: see many conversations holding up and challenging just white people. 458 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: And I'm not gonna say because I know people get 459 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: really upset about this, UM, but we have to recognize 460 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 1: that prejudice we hold in our regards to ourselves and 461 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 1: to others when it comes to people of color being 462 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: pushed against each other to fight against each other in 463 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: order to push each other down. Only only group that 464 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: really benefits is that white supremacists or white groups essentially, 465 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 1: and the term model minority has always been a divisive 466 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: tactic to compare UH one community against another and divide 467 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 1: and conquer essentially. Case in point to Tao, who was 468 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: one of the officers present when George Floyd was pinned 469 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 1: down and murdered. Um, he was complicit, and as an 470 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 1: Asian woman, I cannot deny that he is. His unwillingness 471 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,640 Speaker 1: to stop it was a big problem to this whole crisis, 472 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: and to pretend like he is not a part of 473 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: the narrative is just as wrong and justice um damaging 474 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: for the case of Black Lives Matter. And I think 475 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: that's part of the things that we want to talk about, 476 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: is there's this whole hierarchy and this battle within people 477 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 1: of color where they feel like it's almost like fighting 478 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: for the scraps, if that makes sense, and trying to 479 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: be accepted in a culture that doesn't want to accept 480 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: anyone except their own right and that I mean, that's 481 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: another way when we look at the how far reaching 482 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: white supremacy is and the damage it's done, and you 483 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: can see things like internalized racism, um, we can trace 484 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: it all back to this thing, right, um, and just 485 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: how powerful it is and has been UM, and all 486 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: of this stuff we've been talking about and more stuff. 487 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: If you didn't read the book, uh, I would recommend 488 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: it is how we arrived at white fragility, which is 489 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: a form of bullying and white racial control. Right, fragility 490 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: itself is not fragile. It is, in fact quite strong. 491 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: It is a sociology of dominance. It's a way of 492 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: shutting down any conversation and keeping white supremacy in place. 493 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: White people demonstrate white fragility through several weaponized methods, one 494 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: of the biggest ones being defensiveness UM, shutting down refusing 495 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: to engage when any racial trigger around whiteness comes up, 496 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: which is pretty much any discussion around racism our race. 497 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: Many white people believe that they have been treated unfairly. 498 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: They are the ones that have been treated unfairly or 499 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: are being discriminated against, or that they are being attacked. Um. 500 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,959 Speaker 1: And we've talked before about this, and I think it's 501 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:17,719 Speaker 1: a really really important note. Um, the whole impact versus intent. Ultimately, 502 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: your intentions don't matter. This is a way of turning 503 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: it on the other person, in this case a black 504 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: person and painting them as the aggressor are just too sensitive. 505 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: That's not to say, like you should have good intentions, 506 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: but you should never be like, but my intentions for 507 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: good You're being too sensitive don't even bring that up 508 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: and like it's just it. Ultimately it really doesn't matter. 509 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: And to add to that, the new argument of you're 510 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: putting a bigger divide by saying that we it's us 511 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: against them type of thing. I've seen many of the 512 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: things what people were like, were you talking about this 513 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: puts more divide and racial tension? Yeah, which is an 514 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: absurd argument, stop us to stop, right, but still just 515 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: stop it. I just didn't need that to be said. Um. 516 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: And of course, and we've kind of already talked about 517 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: this previously on a previous episode. Another way white fragility 518 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: manifest is as white lady tears. Generally, when a white 519 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: lady cries, all the attention, especially of white men, is 520 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: diverted her away. And in many ways emotions are political, 521 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: and there's this historical context of black men being brutalized 522 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: and murdered because of white women's distress. I think we 523 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: just had a perfect example of what could have happened. 524 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: Unfortunately it didn't go her way. Um, these tears are 525 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: a mechanism of white guilt and indulgent quote. Since many 526 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: of us have not learned how racism works and our 527 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: rolled in it, our tears may come from shock and 528 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: distress about what we didn't know or recognize. For people 529 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: of color, our tears demonstrate our racial installation and privilege. Yes, 530 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: from the White Lady Tears as a whole chapter in 531 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: the book. UM, And I will say this, I have 532 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: done a lot of self reflection. Actually, I've been doing 533 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: it for a while, both as for the show and 534 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: then when the pandemic happened and then with all this protests, 535 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: And I really think I really recommend it, um, just 536 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: taking the time and to reflect and to write about 537 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: and try to get to the bottom of things. And 538 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: one thing that I'm trying to work on is I've 539 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: almost shied away so much from White Lady Tears that 540 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: I like become emotionally like almost cut off because I 541 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: do not want to be that, um. And so I've 542 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: gone too far in the other direction where I'm like 543 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: not emotionally available. UM. So that is something that I'm 544 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 1: actively trying to be better about. So yeah, it's a 545 00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: constant working process, and I I do recommend the self 546 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 1: reflection and wondering, like, if you have found yourself crying 547 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: in situations, why exactly are you doing it? Right? I 548 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 1: think I think that's the whole conversation of being weaponized. 549 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: I mean either way, because if you're two stoid, you're 550 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: you're a robot, You're emotionless, you're heartless. And I know 551 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: that's been used against women as well. Um it's been 552 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: used as men as well, for having emotions, as I 553 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: have read repeatedly, as this incidents are happening and it's 554 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: heartbreaking and it's terrifying, and for those men who are 555 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: actually trying to make change and are emotionally affected by it, 556 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: they're being called all these things as well, and it's absurd, 557 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: it's absurd in every way. But there's absolutely an understanding 558 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: because again we talked about Amy Cooper using her emotions 559 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: as a webinized way trying to get a black man arrested, 560 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: hard or murdered. Yes, yes, and all of this, everything 561 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: we're talking about, white fragility, of defensiveness, the white lady tears, 562 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: serves to make it generally not worth it in black 563 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 1: people's minds to talk about race and racism with white 564 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,240 Speaker 1: people because some sort of punishment will usually take place, 565 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,760 Speaker 1: most often the expectation of free emotional labor of dealing 566 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: with the hurt feelings of the white person. Uh. It 567 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: also reinforces that black people can't slash, shouldn't be authentic 568 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: around white people. And this just keeps this just serves 569 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: to keep white supremacy in place. Um. When de'angelo asked 570 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: a black man what it would mean for white people 571 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: to be more open to feedback, he said, it would 572 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 1: be revolutionary. And I mean that's the concept back and 573 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: forth right now that we see I'm gonna say, in 574 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: every specifically in black women's social media, I've seen them 575 00:34:53,840 --> 00:35:00,399 Speaker 1: having to freaking coddle white women. Um. I just read 576 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: this morning Rachel Cargol, who is uh someone we adore 577 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,919 Speaker 1: and follow closely and listen to very closely. Um, where 578 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,320 Speaker 1: an older white woman talked about how please be gentle 579 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: with us. You know, we are toddlers, we're trying to 580 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: learn to walk. And she just called her out. She's like, 581 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 1: what are you what are you talking about? That's not 582 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 1: where I'm here for. I'm here for you to listen. 583 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: If you want to listen, listen, But this is almost 584 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: this is actually very She called it manipulative, and it 585 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 1: was to try to tell me that I'm doing something 586 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,359 Speaker 1: that could hurt your feelings or that could be too 587 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: hard for you. And then the woman's response was I'm 588 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: in tears now, I'm crying. Way to go, Thanks a 589 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 1: lot um, which again is like, again, this is manipulative, 590 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: and this is what they are calling about white lady tears. 591 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 1: And the fact is she is not your babysitter, she's 592 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 1: not your handler, she is not your mama, she is 593 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 1: not your any of those things caregiver in any least way. 594 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 1: She is a black woman trying to get you to 595 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 1: see the emotions, the pains, the hardships, the reality of 596 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: racist jerks putting it nicely, putting her in danger. Absolutely, yeah, 597 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: it's it's not black people's responsibility or black women's responsibility 598 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: specifically in this case. Two make you feel better. They 599 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: really they have no responsibility towards you, and those resources 600 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 1: are available to you. You can find them. They have 601 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: been there. They've been there. And another thing too, that 602 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: is they do it though they do it because they 603 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 1: are trying to make change. They do it because of 604 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,839 Speaker 1: the passion and love they have for themselves and for us, 605 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,319 Speaker 1: and they even though they don't have to, they do 606 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: it and it's there and it's insulting to not look 607 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: it up. First to ask them to regarditate has already 608 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 1: been probably ridiculously traumatizing, continues to be traumatizing and fatiguing 609 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: for them as people as humans. Yeah, yeah, absolutely agree. Um. 610 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: We do have a little bit more for your listeners, 611 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,359 Speaker 1: but first we have one more quick break for word 612 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 1: from our sponsor m and we're back, Thank you sponsor. 613 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: And we want to close out with what the book 614 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 1: closes out with, which are some tips too if you 615 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: want to and you should, um, how to become more 616 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: anti racist and what steps should you take? So I 617 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: think as any you put it as well as it says, 618 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,240 Speaker 1: it is referring but nobody chooses to be socialized into 619 00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: white supremacy and racism. Um, most everyone would choose not to. 620 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: But is there is there? Um. Glennon Doyle wrote about 621 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: this and Untained, which we talked about previously on our 622 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 1: buck Club, describing it as poison we all breathe in. 623 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 1: And in an interview with Teaching Tolerance, the Angel has 624 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: said we need to reframe racism like this quote. I 625 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,720 Speaker 1: have it, I have been socialized into it, and so 626 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: what am I going to do about it? This changes 627 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: the focal point from I'm not racist to recognizing our 628 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 1: racist patterns and working to stop them. That's I mean, 629 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,399 Speaker 1: that's one of the things we say all the time, 630 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: is like, the first step is recognizing there's a problem. 631 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 1: So just do that, take that step immediately, and then 632 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 1: you can push forward. I mean, it's kind of how 633 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: I think we've all talked about and most people advise 634 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: when you're in a hard situation to ask yourself, why, 635 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: why are you thinking this way? Why did you believe 636 00:38:58,160 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 1: this to begin with? Where was the root of that? 637 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,399 Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah. And I really like this quote from 638 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,359 Speaker 1: that interview to you before we move on. She said, 639 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,759 Speaker 1: I don't call myself a white. Ally I'm involved in 640 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,280 Speaker 1: anti racist work, but I don't call myself an anti 641 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 1: racist white. That is because it is for people of 642 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: color to decide whether in any given moment, I'm behaving 643 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 1: in anti racist ways, and notice that that keeps me accountable. 644 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: It's for them to determine if in any given moment 645 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 1: it's not a fixed location, I haven't made it or arrived. 646 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:27,839 Speaker 1: So I think that's a good way to think about it. 647 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,839 Speaker 1: Of just it's work, and you have to keep doing it, 648 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: and you have to constantly be appraising where you are 649 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: on that spectrum. So yeah, I remember that that work 650 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 1: ever ends as we can see, UM, reframe how you 651 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 1: think of feedback. It's a good thing. It's a dialogue. 652 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,760 Speaker 1: Remember it was hard for a black person. Thank that person. 653 00:39:54,840 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: When you receive feedback and you feel defensive, first breathe, listen, reflect, 654 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 1: and then seek out someone with a stronger analysis. If 655 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 1: you feel confused, yes, yes, somebody stressed, uh to not 656 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:15,359 Speaker 1: just like coddle you also yes, very important, not right, 657 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: I mean you know, and then take the time you 658 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 1: need to process your feelings, but do not return to 659 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 1: the situation and the persons involved. Good advice and overall, UM, 660 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,799 Speaker 1: if you feel didn't need to be an argumentative, just 661 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: stop and ask again why Yeah? And actually it was 662 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 1: one of the one of my biggest learning curves on 663 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 1: this show has been UM the like kind of defensive 664 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 1: knee check when someone sends you a critical message and 665 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 1: almost always you listeners are really fantastic and it's constructive criticism. 666 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:56,560 Speaker 1: But when I first started to kind of shut me 667 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 1: down and be like, oh no, no, I can't either, 668 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: I can't go on. I'm a terrible person or this 669 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: is why they're wrong. But through my time being on 670 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: this show, I've learned, like what I personally need is 671 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 1: a moment to just step back and absorb it and 672 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: absorb the heart of it, because it's often it's gonna hurt, 673 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 1: it will be uncomfortable. Absorb that and don't like until 674 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 1: you're ready to not project that onto someone else. Just 675 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,320 Speaker 1: kind of like sit with it, figure out why it hurts. 676 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,400 Speaker 1: And a lot of times it's probably because there's a 677 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:36,560 Speaker 1: part it's true any you like and it is it's 678 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,359 Speaker 1: a gift. I like how the book reframes it of 679 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 1: somebody trusted you enough to give you this feedback. They 680 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,879 Speaker 1: obviously think that it was worth it that you can 681 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: work and get better. UM. So just think of it 682 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 1: that way and and see it as this is a 683 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 1: chance for me, This is an opportunity for me to 684 00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,720 Speaker 1: do better and to grow. So that's my own personal 685 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 1: experience with getting feedback and kind of learning how to 686 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: deal with that knee jerk defensiveness. UM. Another thing, work 687 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 1: on building up your racial stamina to have these conversations 688 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,720 Speaker 1: and to take that feedback graciously because, as we've said, 689 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 1: for a lot of white people, we're taught not to 690 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 1: talk about it and we don't talk about it, and 691 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,600 Speaker 1: we haven't talked about it, so just have that is 692 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,319 Speaker 1: something that you work on. Another thing, as I've said, 693 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,879 Speaker 1: to take the time to self reflect. I really think 694 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,399 Speaker 1: this is super important it. I know there's a part 695 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,000 Speaker 1: of me that's like that, that's just sort of sitting 696 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 1: there and thinking when I could be doing something. You 697 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:43,440 Speaker 1: are doing something, and it's actually really difficult and really worthwhile. 698 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:48,720 Speaker 1: So highly recommend that do the research, do the reading. 699 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:51,920 Speaker 1: Don't ask a black person to point you in the 700 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,839 Speaker 1: right direction. Again, these are re sources are there, They're 701 00:42:54,840 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: easily found, they've been there. You can do this. UM. 702 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 1: The reading group guide on that we've mentioned and UH 703 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:08,319 Speaker 1: is on Robind'an Angela's website can be really helpful for 704 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: self reflection and actually a lot of great resources are 705 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:15,719 Speaker 1: available on her website for working through something, starting this 706 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,279 Speaker 1: process or hopefully continuing this process because I bet a 707 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 1: lot of our listeners UM have been doing this for 708 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 1: a while. UM and yeah, thanks to everybody out there 709 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,520 Speaker 1: doing the work and protesting and donating and organizing and 710 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:33,279 Speaker 1: educating and self reflecting. We urge you to take care 711 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,400 Speaker 1: of yourselves and to take care of others. Right, Um. 712 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 1: And for the people in Atlanta, I'm with you. When 713 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: we were out there protesting, that'st way I can describe 714 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,440 Speaker 1: the emotions was. For me, it was only intense because 715 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 1: I'm just watching to make sure everyone is okay. Because 716 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:57,280 Speaker 1: as a non black person once again, UM, my responsibility 717 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,959 Speaker 1: is to be the the ally to follow the lead 718 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: of the black community and the black leaders here. And 719 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,040 Speaker 1: but I will say it was really encouraging to see 720 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 1: the people really taking care of each other, whether it 721 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,799 Speaker 1: was handing out masks uh, and there were a lot 722 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,920 Speaker 1: of people there just doing that, handing out water, making 723 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,359 Speaker 1: sure everybody's okay, coming around, making because it was really 724 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,400 Speaker 1: hot in Atlanta when I was out making sure everybody 725 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,399 Speaker 1: was hydrated, making sure everybody was okay. They are telling 726 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:25,959 Speaker 1: people how to stay in and make sure they weren't 727 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,240 Speaker 1: in the sun. Um, giving snacks out. It was fantastic. 728 00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,520 Speaker 1: There was a very large school bus at one point 729 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:33,279 Speaker 1: and people were getting too hot, they would allow you 730 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,200 Speaker 1: to hop on board. So it was really beautiful to me, 731 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: um about what was happening and how beautiful it is. 732 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,680 Speaker 1: And then there was a lot of voices, especially the 733 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,760 Speaker 1: black voices, and even at one point we started chanting 734 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:48,759 Speaker 1: respect black women, and I thought that was one of 735 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:53,240 Speaker 1: the key components of this whole movement, because we've seen 736 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: a lot of devices in this, even within that movement 737 00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,000 Speaker 1: of Black lives movement, about who does that include? Are 738 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,640 Speaker 1: you including black women? Are you listening to the black women? 739 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:03,440 Speaker 1: Are you listening to black feminists? And we kind of 740 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:08,000 Speaker 1: had that quote from our update episode last week. I'm 741 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,200 Speaker 1: assuming that this is published, this would be last week 742 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:15,960 Speaker 1: about Brianna Taylor and um Brittany Cooper about the fact 743 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:21,040 Speaker 1: that there is a strong need for black feminist leaders 744 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,480 Speaker 1: and this this is one of those reasons. And then 745 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 1: we talked about we didn't talk about what we should 746 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,840 Speaker 1: talk about more about the Black trans lives matter as well, 747 00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,239 Speaker 1: and the fact that a black trans woman was just 748 00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:36,840 Speaker 1: uh beaten and in her own community because there was 749 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 1: this this level of disrespect in that conversation as well, 750 00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:42,880 Speaker 1: and as well as the fact that a black trans 751 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,480 Speaker 1: person was murdered, um and killed by police as well. 752 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,759 Speaker 1: So I mean, there's just this whole bigger component of 753 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,160 Speaker 1: what this looks like and who we need to be 754 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,640 Speaker 1: looking at and following. Um. But yeah, I feel like 755 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,680 Speaker 1: Elena did a great job and encompassing all of that, 756 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:01,680 Speaker 1: and it was really beautiful to me. There's so many 757 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,040 Speaker 1: amazing people out there, and I was very proud to 758 00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,600 Speaker 1: be out there. Um. And we didn't want to talk 759 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,040 Speaker 1: a little bit specifically about the resources. And just to 760 00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,840 Speaker 1: give you a couple of things that you can do, 761 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:13,720 Speaker 1: and I'm sure a lot of you are already doing, 762 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:18,080 Speaker 1: is follow black feminists on social media. UM. This is 763 00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:20,799 Speaker 1: we're getting a lot of good information with the whole 764 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,680 Speaker 1: thing about the blackout Tuesday. That was where I found 765 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:25,799 Speaker 1: that information of like, be careful of how you're bash 766 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,759 Speaker 1: taking it, who was actually using this and who what 767 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,080 Speaker 1: what it was for. It's really important before you jump 768 00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,560 Speaker 1: on a bandwagon, you know where it originated. UM. So 769 00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,280 Speaker 1: some of them that we follow and we recommended you follow, 770 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:38,880 Speaker 1: and there's so many more, by the way, but this 771 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,560 Speaker 1: is we have a short time, UM, Brittany Cooper, Kia Brown, 772 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:47,040 Speaker 1: were Quel Willis, Rachel Cargo, former host Bridget Todd, which 773 00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:51,600 Speaker 1: I hope most of you are following anyway, Jamal Hill, um, 774 00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,319 Speaker 1: and they are talking and they have been telling us 775 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,759 Speaker 1: how to advocate and where to go. You don't need 776 00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:59,839 Speaker 1: to ask people. You could just read it's there. It's 777 00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,400 Speaker 1: to be utiful. Um, you can listen to podcasts like 778 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:06,120 Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls CODES which what a day scam Goddess, 779 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:10,360 Speaker 1: I let your voice be heard, Jamal Hills unbothered. There's 780 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,120 Speaker 1: so many out there that you can look up and 781 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,319 Speaker 1: that are black lead and you need to look up. 782 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,680 Speaker 1: And then, as listeners have pointed out that we chose 783 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 1: this book's first due to the recommendation again of our therapists, 784 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,120 Speaker 1: there are so many books written by women and that 785 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:28,200 Speaker 1: we should be supporting, such as Eloquent Rage by Brittany Cooper, 786 00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,920 Speaker 1: which I heard her speak. She is phenomenal and hilarious. 787 00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:32,720 Speaker 1: Y'all have a good chance to listen to her speak. 788 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:36,000 Speaker 1: Life amazing. So you want to talk about Raised by 789 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,840 Speaker 1: Ijoma Aluo, Women Raised in Class by Angela Davis, and 790 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,960 Speaker 1: Black Feminist Thought by Patricia Hill Collins. And again, these 791 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,239 Speaker 1: are just a few. There's so many good books out there. 792 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:49,200 Speaker 1: Support your local bookstores, support black owned bookstores. These are 793 00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,640 Speaker 1: the times that we need to look at it. And 794 00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:56,120 Speaker 1: I love the reaction we got anny when we posted 795 00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,359 Speaker 1: this up as our book club. It was a lot 796 00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,520 Speaker 1: of amazed people who are so excited who have already 797 00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:04,560 Speaker 1: started reading it, who already had the book and was 798 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,799 Speaker 1: ready and has been ready. And I love that, Um, 799 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,759 Speaker 1: people have been so big. And if people all come 800 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:17,080 Speaker 1: on with controversial, antagonistic trolling, our listeners have been ready 801 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,000 Speaker 1: for that too, and I love that. And I also 802 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,799 Speaker 1: love that our listeners have been advocating that we are 803 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 1: appropriate in what we're who are advertising essentially I guess 804 00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:29,080 Speaker 1: who who are platforming? And thank you so much because 805 00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:32,200 Speaker 1: this is the type of conversation that we have wanted 806 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:37,040 Speaker 1: and we want to do continuously. Yes, Yes, the listeners 807 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:41,799 Speaker 1: are amazing. We're always inspired and grateful UM to have 808 00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,839 Speaker 1: you in our community. UM, and yeah, let's keep this 809 00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:50,480 Speaker 1: conversation going. If you would like to email us that 810 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,120 Speaker 1: you can our email us Stuff Media Mom Stuff at 811 00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:56,080 Speaker 1: iHeart media dot com. You can find us on Instagram 812 00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,279 Speaker 1: at stuff moone never told You or on Twitter at 813 00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,160 Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcast Thinks It's always to our super producer 814 00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:05,320 Speaker 1: Andrew Howard. Thanks hey, and thanks to you for listening. 815 00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:08,320 Speaker 1: Stephane Ever told you the protection of I Heart Radio. 816 00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:10,440 Speaker 1: For more podcast on my heart Radio, visit the iHeart 817 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:12,920 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your 818 00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:13,600 Speaker 1: favorite shows,