1 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: This is Lee Habib and this is our American Stories, 2 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: the show where America is the star and the American 3 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: people coming to you from the city where the West begins, 4 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: Fort Worth, Texas. Giovanni Rocco went under cover for three 5 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: years to infiltrate and ultimately take down the New Jersey 6 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: mafia family that was the inspiration for the television series 7 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: The Sopranos. Here to tell his story is Giovanni Rocco. 8 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: Let's take a listen. 9 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 2: So I grew up in a a city in New Jersey, 10 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 2: just outside of New York and Hudson County, New Jersey. 11 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 2: Bayone is the city I grew up in. You're talking 12 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 2: in the seventies and eighties is when I grew up 13 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 2: as a kid in that time. The things that happened 14 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 2: in Bayone, we were unique where we had a strong 15 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 2: mafia presence growing up. We had a strong outlaw motorcycle 16 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 2: group that local to the town at the time. Some 17 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 2: of my uncles belonged to that. And I'm third generation police, 18 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 2: so my dad was a very well respected cop in 19 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 2: the Hudson County area. My mom and dad wanted the 20 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 2: best for us. They would sacrifice everything for us. And 21 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 2: in doing so, my mom struggled. She was a stay 22 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 2: at home mom when we were young until we were 23 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 2: old enough and she can get a job in the 24 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 2: grocery store as a cashier. But they would struggle and 25 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,279 Speaker 2: they would make ends meet to put us through Catholic school. 26 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 2: So every dime went to putting three of us through 27 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 2: Catholic school. In private school back then in the seventies 28 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 2: into the eighties, I didn't do well in Catholic school 29 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 2: since I think I might have gotten my first detention 30 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 2: in kindergarten. Not my proudest moments. I think I might 31 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 2: have come close to my first suspension in first grade 32 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 2: in Catholic school. Just something about me and the nuns 33 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 2: and authority did not rub well. As a young kid, 34 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 2: I was the black sheep of the family, I guess 35 00:01:58,280 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 2: they call it. It was nothing for me to go 36 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 2: to school by the time I made it into my 37 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 2: eighth grade years into high school. To be very careful 38 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 2: of who you dated, because if you wanted to date 39 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 2: a certain girl, her dad might have been in prison 40 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 2: as a hitman, and it was known, it was very 41 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 2: openly known, be careful, stay away from her because her 42 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 2: dad's getting out on parole sooner, and if he finds 43 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 2: out he's dating you're dating his daughter, there could be 44 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 2: a problem. And then before you know what, you're playing 45 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 2: in people's yards, riding your bike and realizing the people 46 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 2: that you're around. Yeah, he's a mad guy. As we 47 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 2: moved on into high school, I gravitated towards my mom's 48 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 2: side of the family. Had married a couple of outlaw 49 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,079 Speaker 2: bikers or guys that were connected to some outlaw motorcycle 50 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 2: groups predominant, very well known. Again, having that background of 51 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: knowing my dad had shootouts with these guys at the 52 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 2: clubhouse close by and knowing the stories and then be 53 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 2: around him, I knew that was my dad's that was 54 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 2: his achilles heel. If I can just be more like 55 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 2: those guys, I could be more defiant to my father. 56 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 2: And as school went on into my high school years, 57 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 2: now I was I'm done. I checked out, I think 58 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 2: by I tried to. By that point, I tried to 59 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: sign up for the Air Force on the way home 60 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 2: one day where I was in some serious trouble and 61 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 2: I was getting suspended every semester I was being suspended 62 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: for something, and then almost an expulsion letter was going 63 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 2: to be sent to the house, and I would miss 64 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 2: that letter. You know, that's God looking out and you know, 65 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: teaching me a lesson and saying, you know, oh, you 66 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 2: think you're a smart one. And it kind of bit 67 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 2: me in a butt because in senior year, my US 68 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 2: history teacher came to me and knew that I was 69 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 2: a kid from the street and understood my language and 70 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 2: how to speak to me and one of my best friends, 71 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 2: and he basically called us in and he said, you 72 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 2: two idiots. You're not graduating. You two morons. And he 73 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: would literally sit there and kind of talk to me 74 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 2: like my dad. They played football together and they grew 75 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 2: up together. He goes, it's up to me whether you 76 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:52,119 Speaker 2: to morons graduate. So what we're gonna do is, you're 77 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: gonna buy me a bottle of Johnny Walker blue, and 78 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 2: you're gonna buy me a bottle of Johnny Walker black. 79 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 2: And I have a beach house down at Jersey Shore, 80 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 2: and I enjoyed my drinks in my little tiki hut. 81 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 2: And he described it very graphically, and he says, and 82 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: I enjoy my summers and I enjoy my very expensive 83 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 2: liquor because of the idiots like you. So you'll gift 84 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 2: wrap it. You'll bring it to my class and to 85 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 2: this class, and he says, in my desk, draw will 86 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 2: be open, the door will be unlocked, and you'll come 87 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 2: here during cafeteria when nobody's here, and you can slip in. 88 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 2: You take the gift wrap box. Each of you will 89 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 2: put your bottle in there. If your bottle is in there, 90 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 2: you'll pass, and you'll walk on stage with your friends. 91 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 2: If not, see you in summer school, and I'll see 92 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 2: you next year. So of course at that time, Johnny Walker, 93 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 2: Blue and Black, they're not in the aisles. You know, 94 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: this is a very expensive liquor you're talking about, So 95 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: they're behind the counter, so I can't walk in there. 96 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 2: Of course I'm not of age to buy it. I 97 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 2: had to go home and throw myself on a sword, embarrassingly, 98 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 2: throw myself at my parents' feet. And my mom, being 99 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 2: a strong Catholic she was, and you know, she doesn't lie, 100 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 2: and she holds herself to a high standard, and you know, 101 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 2: we come from very very strong Catholic backgrounds. And there 102 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 2: she goes, and she went and did it, and she's 103 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 2: talked to my phone and they agreed and we got it. 104 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 2: And boom, there you go. So I was able to 105 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: walk the stage with my friends and graduate high school. 106 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 2: The problem was I had no direction. And a few 107 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 2: months after I got through the alcohol thing, they gave 108 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 2: a career day and New Jersey Bell Phone company came 109 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 2: in and they gave an aptitude test for employment on 110 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 2: the way out if you were a senior. So in 111 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty nine, I believe it was into ninety, I 112 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 2: was working for New Jersey Bell. And here I am again, 113 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 2: I start thirsting for adrenaline. Okay, I can't get it 114 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 2: from the street anymore. How am I going to get 115 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 2: it from this phone company? Is? But then they tell 116 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 2: me there's these two man areas and there's a low 117 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 2: income housing projects that nobody would dare go into where 118 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: the cops go into in Jersey City, and these areas 119 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 2: in Hoboken are areas in certain areas in New Jersey 120 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 2: where police don't go unless there's two to maybe three 121 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 2: squad cars, two squad cars with four cops to go 122 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 2: in and respond to the call. And when the extra 123 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 2: car sits outside and watches the squad cars while the 124 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 2: police respond, that's what kind of trouble these places are 125 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 2: sign me up. I want in. You're gonna pay me extra. 126 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 2: You're gonna pay me as the New Jersey Bell Phone 127 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 2: company what they call combat pay. I went in, How 128 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 2: do I get it? So I teamed up with a 129 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 2: guy from Texas and he was just this big old 130 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 2: cowboy that came to New Jersey to work. And I 131 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 2: teamed up with him and we go in nine o'clock 132 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 2: at night into these areas where gunshots and all kinds 133 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 2: of things are running out and ringing out, and it 134 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,559 Speaker 2: was great. I loved it. I was making bank. 135 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: And you've been listening to Giovanni Roco tell the story 136 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: of his Catholic upbringing in a tough New Jersey neighborhood, 137 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: a working class New Jersey neighborhood, bay owned surrounded by 138 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:44,119 Speaker 1: docks and waterfronts, and my goodness, surrounded by sketchy, let's 139 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: just say, sketchy people, lots of mobsters, low grade, and 140 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: then of course motorcycle gangs and groups, and it was 141 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 1: just well, let's just say it was tough sledding for 142 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: young Giovanni. Plus, he really didn't have much of an 143 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: appetite for any kind of authority, talking about and perhaps 144 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: even being a bit proud of being in detention by 145 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: the time he was in kindergarten in first grade. That 146 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: story about how we got to graduate, well that just 147 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: sounds so New Jersey and so Bayone. And by the way, 148 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: I grew up not far from these neighborhoods, so I 149 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: know exactly what he's talking about. 150 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 2: When we come back. 151 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: More of Giovanni Rocco's story here on Our American Stories 152 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: Leehabib here, and I'd like to encourage you to subscribe 153 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: to Our American Stories on Apple Podcasts, the iHeartRadio app, Spotify, 154 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: or wherever you get our podcasts. Any story you missed 155 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: or want to hear again can be found there daily again. 156 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: Please subscribe to the Our American Stories podcast on Apple Podcasts, 157 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, or anywhere you get your podcasts. It 158 00:07:55,520 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: helps us keep these great American stories coming. And we 159 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: continue with our American Stories, and we continue with Giovanni 160 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: Rocco sharing his own story coming up some of the 161 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: tough streets or tougher streets in New Jersey. Let's pick 162 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,239 Speaker 1: up where we last left off. 163 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 2: When I was twenty going on twenty one, my dad 164 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 2: had called me and said, yeah, they're given a police 165 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 2: job and it's in Hudson County and if you want in, 166 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 2: you know, you should take the test. And he knew 167 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 2: my background. The chief knew my background. He knew who 168 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 2: I was. I played in his yard as a kid. 169 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:41,719 Speaker 2: I saw the things that he was doing as a 170 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 2: police officer. I knew he was a strong marine. He 171 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 2: was a great policeman. He was an aggressive policeman. He 172 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 2: was a very well respected man on both sides of 173 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,559 Speaker 2: the isisle. I'm on a criminal side. Even a mob 174 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: respected this man. So when he called my parents' house, 175 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 2: my father handed me the phone. I got on a 176 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 2: phone with him, and he says, look, gee, thinking about 177 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 2: hiring you, I can make an eleven spot. I would 178 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 2: look to hire you. If you could tell me that 179 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 2: you've changed your ways, and you can tell me that 180 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 2: you know you're on a straight and narrow and you're 181 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 2: gonna give me the best that you can give me. 182 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 2: I would consider doing this. What do you think. My 183 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 2: response was, yeah, sure, I'll give it a shot. The 184 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 2: most disrespectful thing to say to marine and the police 185 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 2: chief you could possibly say. And he said, that's the 186 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 2: best you have for me. I'll give it a shot. 187 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 2: And then quickly, I puck it up and I said, 188 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: all right, yes, sir, I'll take the job, and I'm 189 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 2: very interested. I want it. And that was it. I 190 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 2: walked a beat for a while, I earned my way 191 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 2: into a car, but more importantly, when I had showed 192 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 2: up for one of my first daytime tours they gave me. 193 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 2: I went to my locker and I was greeted by 194 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 2: a cop who had chased me around for years as 195 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 2: a kid in the street. And I made a sarcastic 196 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,199 Speaker 2: comment like I said hello to him, but I guess 197 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 2: the way my delivery was was not well and he 198 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 2: was a motorcycle cop back then. Really big guy slammed 199 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 2: its locker door shut, literally grabbed me by the throat, 200 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 2: pushed me up against the locker and said, don't ever 201 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:03,959 Speaker 2: talk to me again. You're a piece of garbage. You 202 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 2: don't belong here, and you're not one of us. So 203 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 2: I realized where I stood with these guys. So I 204 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 2: had to be real careful on how I moved. But 205 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 2: for my dad, he made it very clear, do not 206 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 2: ever let me find out that you put your hands 207 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 2: on somebody that's handcuffed. I don't care who they are, 208 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: what they did, you better respect people, You better treat 209 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 2: people the way you want to be treated. And that's 210 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 2: the gold of rule that my father raised me and 211 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 2: my brother's eye. Treat people the way you want to 212 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: be treated. I never forgot that. And then eventually they 213 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 2: came to me early in my career and they offered 214 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 2: me a position in a narcotic squad. But it wasn't narcotics. 215 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 2: It was day's vice. Now, day's vice was prostitution, gambling, 216 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 2: organized crime. It's not what I wanted, but I wanted 217 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 2: my gold shield, and I took it, and I worked 218 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 2: days for a while, and I worked my way through that. 219 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 2: So eventually what had happened was one day I decided 220 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 2: to kind of go back to my old roots with 221 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 2: my uncle Pete. He had built a seventy seven chopper, 222 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 2: Hardy Davison chopper, and I thought it would be cool 223 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 2: if I had written it to work one and took 224 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 2: it to work to the precinct. And I'm comfortable enough 225 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 2: now and I'm on the job, and I'm young enough, 226 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 2: and I showed up with police pants, a white T 227 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 2: shirt and a leather jacket, and I had my handgun, 228 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 2: my duty weapon, just shoved into my pants. Couldn't get 229 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 2: more gangster or more of a douche if he tried. 230 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 2: And as I pulled in, I started setting off all 231 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 2: the car alarms under the building because they're sensitive alarms. 232 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 2: And I see somebody waving their hands like telling me 233 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 2: to cut it off. And as it come out of 234 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 2: the shadows, it was my chief. He looks at me, said, Gievanni, 235 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 2: whose bike is this? Why is that under the building. 236 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 2: He thought we had impounded it. He sees I'm coming 237 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 2: in for work. I said, how, it's my bike, you know. 238 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 2: And it was totally street illegal, no blinkers, no this, 239 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 2: no that it was something in an outlaw would ride it, 240 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 2: something to one percent. I would ride and it just 241 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 2: offended him big time. And he went up one side 242 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 2: down the other, ripped me a new one. The way 243 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 2: I was dressed, the fact that I had this leather 244 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 2: vest on, and who do I think I was? And 245 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: he gave me this job, and he promised me, you know, 246 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 2: I promised him, and I gave my word to him, 247 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 2: and he called me in on a carpet. We used 248 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 2: to call it the carpet because he had a carpet 249 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 2: under his front desk and you had to stand there 250 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 2: in front of it like you were in grade school, 251 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 2: and he would be on the phone. And half the 252 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 2: time I think he staged these things because he was 253 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: always tell his secretary like just like my principal did 254 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 2: send them in and he'd still be on a phone 255 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 2: with somebody, and he'd make you stand on that carpet 256 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 2: for about what felt like forever, but it was only 257 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 2: thirty seconds to a minute. Hangs up the phone. So 258 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 2: what are you doing with the bike? Do you still 259 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 2: have the motorcycle? And he was kind of toying with 260 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 2: me a little bit, so he gave me an opportunity 261 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: and said, look, if I give you an opportunity to 262 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 2: work an under cover case that they have going on, 263 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 2: would you do it? And I said, yeah, sure, I 264 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 2: love to. He says, well, let's talk about it. Let's 265 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 2: think about it, and I'll get back to you in 266 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 2: a few days. And he gave me the opportunity to 267 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 2: work some really low hanging fruit, a couple of little 268 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 2: layups that were undercover work. And then eventually what happened 269 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 2: was there was a dea case and they were infiltrating 270 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 2: and trying to infiltrate a certain motorcycle group out of 271 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 2: New York area. They gave my orders to go in 272 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: and buy a certain amount of marijuana and some handguns, 273 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 2: and I totally screwed it up. He gave me a 274 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 2: chance to make it right. Long story short, I went 275 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 2: back in. I made it right. They gave me an informant. 276 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 2: The inform introduced me and kind of bouching me. And 277 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 2: during that time the Bureau had come to me. I 278 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 2: had a guy who was doing it. He was undercover 279 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 2: agent and he was doing some dope deals in organized crime, 280 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 2: and he was brought in to buy dope off of 281 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 2: these kids. They're in their thirties. And by that point, 282 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 2: I go inside the house and I tell my wife, 283 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 2: who's also a detective. At the time, she was working 284 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 2: sex crimes, and I said, real quick, I got to 285 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 2: run down Atlantic City. I'm going to clean up real fast. 286 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 2: I'm gonna run down and have dinner for a couple hours, 287 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 2: and I'll be back by you know, by eleven o'clock 288 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 2: at night, I should be home. And of course she 289 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 2: worked on the cover work and she knew that I 290 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 2: was not going to be home on time, and she 291 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 2: said to me, No, you have to have the kids 292 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 2: in the morning. I'm on call tonight for sex crimes 293 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 2: with my agency, and I start on call at midnight. 294 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 2: So if you're not home by midnight and I get 295 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 2: a call, there's going to be a big problem. You 296 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 2: need to be home because you have the kids in 297 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 2: the morning. Dah. I don't worry about it. No sweat. So 298 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 2: you can only imagine when I show up down Atlantic City. 299 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 2: Nine o'clock turns into ten o'clock, ten o'clock turns into 300 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 2: ten thirty. We're waiting, and we're waiting, and we're waiting, 301 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 2: and I'm not sitting there and this is I'm not 302 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 2: putting on an act anymore. I'm seriously just pissed off 303 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 2: that we're waiting this long. Cops wait right, drug dealers 304 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 2: don't wait, Cops weight And I'm sitting there watching Yankee 305 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 2: game and I'm a Yankee fan, so the Yankees are losing. 306 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 2: So that's just adding more misery to my night. I 307 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 2: could hear my wife's voice in my ear saying midnight, 308 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 2: you know, and I'm thinking I'm going to turn into 309 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 2: a pumpkin once again. I'm gonna fail my relationship. I'm 310 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 2: gonna let her down like I always do. And I'm 311 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 2: not gonna be home. I'm not gonna do what I 312 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 2: said I was going to do. And I'm sitting there 313 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 2: thinking of all these things. So by the time this 314 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 2: guy shows up hours late, he multiplied like a gremlin. 315 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 2: And there's maybe now three or four of them there, 316 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 2: and there's two of us, and we're eating dinner. We're 317 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 2: finished dinner, and my colleague, Nikki, he had looked at it, 318 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 2: and he says, hey, I want to introduce you to 319 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 2: these guys. I don't need to meet anybody, Nick, I'm 320 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 2: just here to eat dinner, do your thing, and let's 321 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 2: get out of here. I don't know what you're here for. 322 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 2: I don't even know who they are. But the Yankees 323 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 2: will losing. I just want to go home. So he says, 324 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 2: all right, But again, these guys are shooters. They're known 325 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 2: as shooters. They have a history of it. So I 326 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 2: have to be on And as we're watching the TV 327 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 2: and I'm watching the Yankees come back, he says, what 328 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 2: do you think, gee? I said, what do I think about? What? 329 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 2: He says, Well, he's got it on him. You want 330 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 2: to do it in the bathroom? Or you want to 331 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 2: do it right here. I want to go outside in 332 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 2: the car. I go, what do you have on you? 333 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 2: You have something on you? And he says, you know 334 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 2: the stuff, the powder I brought for him. You have 335 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 2: powder on you right now? He says, yeah, I got 336 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 2: it in my pants. And I kind of turned the 337 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: direction to the undercover and he knew I was playing 338 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 2: my part. And I said, really, this is what you do. 339 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 2: You put me in this position with this idiot. He goes, relax, Gee, 340 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 2: don't tell me to relax. I don't know this guy. 341 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 2: I don't know what you're doing with them like a 342 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 2: gangster would do. See. I took everything I learned in 343 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: the street as a kid, and I applied it now 344 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 2: to my career. And these are conversations I would watch 345 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 2: happen in the pizzerias or happening in the restaurants when 346 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 2: I was washing dishes and stuff. This guy here, you 347 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 2: and you want to do a drug deal in a 348 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 2: bathroom like you're a sixteen year old girl in high school. 349 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 2: And I'm be little on this guy now and he 350 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 2: looks at me and he's a serious guy, and he's 351 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 2: looking at me like, you know, he'd like to reach 352 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 2: across the table. You waste my time. You waste I 353 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 2: eat dinner. You were supposed to be here for dinner. 354 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 2: Where were you, he says, why. I told him my 355 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 2: truck broke down this and that. Yeah, he says, well, 356 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 2: I could order something. I could eat. I haven't eaten 357 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 2: all day. You're not eating at my table. Hey, you 358 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 2: want something to eat? And I have Pielo motor was 359 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 2: all melted ice cream with apple pie and it's all 360 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 2: melted and liquid. I said, hey, you could eat that. 361 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 2: That's what you get for showing up hours late and 362 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 2: leaving me sit here and my friend's sitting here. I 363 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 2: want to do like a sixteen year old girl in 364 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 2: a bathroom. And I'm just talking out loud like a 365 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 2: psychopath would do. Like I used to see in the street, 366 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 2: specifically the gangsters and the mobsters I saw. 367 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: And you've been listening to Giovanni Rocco telling the story 368 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: of his entry into his life as a cop. He 369 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: was destined for two lives, one the criminal and the 370 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: other cop. I mean, there's sometimes a fine line between 371 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 1: the two. And here he is getting baptized by fire quickly. 372 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: It turns out he's having real run ins with authority 373 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 1: for fellow cops, and then also by his own chief, 374 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: showing up well like a gangster on his harley and 375 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: not well received by his boss. But ultimately the chief 376 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: saw something in Giovanni that he liked. That is the 377 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: kind of guy who might just be able to earn 378 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 1: his stripes undercover. And he gets his first gig, as 379 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 1: he'd put it in the narcotics and vice squads, prostitution, 380 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: organized crime, and that border between those parts of criminality, 381 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: and then that first undercover case, and of all places, 382 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: Atlantic City, a notorious place for mobsters to do their 383 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: work in New Jersey. And when we come back more 384 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: of this remarkable story, you'll be hearing more from Giovanni 385 00:17:53,920 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: Rocco here on our American stories. And we continue with 386 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: our American stories and with Giovanni Rocco telling his own 387 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 1: story about his life as an undercover cop. Let's pick 388 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: up when we last left off. 389 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 2: They always talked out loud, and I always drew from that. 390 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 2: I want to sit here and sit like a girl whatever, 391 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 2: hey sweetheart, and I start snapping my finger at the waitress, 392 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 2: little Italian girl. I would never in my life if 393 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 2: my mother heard me talk to another female like this, 394 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: she chop my hands off, or give me a fat lip. Hey, sweetie, sweetie, 395 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:39,959 Speaker 2: come in. You got one of those things, those bags 396 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 2: that the bags that you bring the food to get 397 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 2: to go to go bag. I said, yeah, go get 398 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 2: me one of them. And again I'm playing a character. 399 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 2: I'm playing at low level street Giovanni, the Christopher Molta 400 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,199 Speaker 2: Santi guy. Yeah, go get me one of those. And 401 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 2: she looks at me as if my wife would look 402 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 2: at me, or somebody in my family look at me 403 00:18:57,760 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 2: with that Italian eye and say, I'll kill y'all. Stab you. 404 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 2: I'll go in to the back and get a stak 405 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 2: knife and I'll stab you right here. I said, go ahead, 406 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 2: go give me mo. She comes back and throws it 407 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 2: on the table. I said, hey, sweetie, I apologize, thank 408 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 2: you for getting this to me. And I look at 409 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 2: him and I go from friendly to just stone cold, 410 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 2: and I'm going to here, put it on their hand, 411 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 2: under the table, Give it to me under the table, 412 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 2: and shut up, don't say nothing. Just reach in your 413 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 2: pants and put it in his bag. And he does, 414 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 2: and as he's doing I look at my partner and 415 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 2: I can't believe you do this to me, you know, 416 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 2: And it's the things you say in that world that 417 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 2: you have to listen for. I said for you, for you, 418 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 2: I do this. You know. If I go back inside, 419 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 2: it's for something that I did, not something you did. 420 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 2: I did this. I put myself back inside. See what 421 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 2: I'm saying to this kid is I've been to prison. 422 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 2: I'm telling this kid, I'm a street guy. I'm telling 423 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 2: him that we're serious guys, and he's a nobody. I'm 424 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 2: trying to paint that picture because I'm trying to survive, 425 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 2: to make it home to my family. He gives me 426 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 2: the dope. I put it in, put it in a bag. 427 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 2: I take it, and I may like I put it 428 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 2: in the car. I went outside. I gave it to 429 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 2: the case agent some block or two away, and I 430 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 2: come walking back inside. We wrap that meeting up and 431 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 2: we're done. Like so many other times. Of course, this 432 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,640 Speaker 2: guy here, Jimmy, he goes back to a neighborhood. He's 433 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 2: from North Jersey, specifically Elizabeth, New Jersey, and now he 434 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 2: has a story. His story is and he's going around 435 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 2: telling everybody. Because you have to understand, what do the 436 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,199 Speaker 2: FBI with a federal government. We have more sources in 437 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 2: the street and more microphones all over the place that 438 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 2: you can't count them. And he goes back to a 439 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 2: specific neighborhood where de Caabacante crime family is very strong, 440 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 2: and he starts telling everybody, I just went to Atlantic 441 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 2: City last night. I had dinner with these guys, Bruno 442 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,959 Speaker 2: scoffold guys, serious guys. He made up a whole legend 443 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 2: for us, a whole story, a whole backstory, kind of 444 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 2: building bonafidus for himself. So you know what, let's just 445 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 2: do a couple of deals with them to be done 446 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 2: with it. It's real quick, quick and simple, all right. 447 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 2: So what we did was we agreed that he saw 448 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 2: a warehouse full of stolen goods that I had and 449 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 2: it was out of China, and we had a three 450 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 2: hundred million dollars seat of counterfeit goods. There's some cigarettes 451 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 2: we gave him. I had given him some Timberland boots 452 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 2: and some ugs. So you can only imagine when people 453 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 2: are selling over in the street, especially with union jobs 454 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 2: and at union construction sites, when guys from the organized 455 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 2: crime groups they start to see these things, and a 456 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 2: guy like Jimmy who doesn't have two nickels to rub together. 457 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 2: Now he's selling boots at their sites. They want our answers. 458 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 2: They want to know who he's doing business with. So 459 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 2: Jimmy explains to a guy named Luigi Alaveri. Luigi Alaveri 460 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 2: was a hooked up guy, not a mad guy in 461 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,959 Speaker 2: a Decavicante crime family. We knew him, he was on 462 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 2: our radar. I knew about him for decades. So he 463 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 2: starts to tell me, well, listen, I got a friend, Luigi. 464 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 2: He wants to meet you. He says that he might 465 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 2: want to do business. Would you mind if we introduce 466 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 2: you to each other. So we did that and I 467 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 2: met Louis. And the good thing with Louis was he 468 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 2: was always on time. You could set you watch this guy, 469 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 2: and he always had the money. He walked around with 470 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 2: a not of hundreds and peeled off whatever he owed you, 471 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 2: and he always had it right there. Very very different 472 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 2: than the theistic to Jimmy. The thing was, I needed 473 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 2: to hold Jimmy's feet to the fire, and I kind 474 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 2: of explained to Louis that he owes me this money 475 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 2: and I got to collect this money from his kid, 476 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 2: and maybe you could help me with that. He goes, well, 477 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 2: what does he owe you? And I told him, and 478 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 2: he kind of knew already, and I said, well, I 479 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 2: got to get this money. I got to recover this 480 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 2: money he owes me. And you know, I'm doing some 481 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 2: other things that I don't want to talk to you about, 482 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 2: but I'm doing some other business with him too, kind 483 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 2: of planting the seeds. And I said, up, but I 484 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 2: need to recover this money. He goes, all right, don't 485 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 2: worry about it. Listen, he reports to me anyway, reports 486 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 2: to you. Yeah, he's with me. I'll make it right. 487 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 2: Here's what we're going to do. Tell Jimmy, if he 488 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 2: doesn't have your money, he's going to force your hand 489 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 2: and you're going to have to go to another family, 490 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 2: another crime family, crime family. And now we're talking crime families. 491 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 2: I don't know what you're talking about. And again, even 492 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 2: though I knew the mob, I had to play dumb. 493 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 2: I needed an education for evidence purposes. So he says 494 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 2: to me, clear as day, he says, Look, you don't 495 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 2: understand what I'm saying. Listen to me. I'm with the Decavocantes. 496 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 2: I have no idea what that is. He says, you've 497 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 2: never heard of decabs. What a great tape I'm making 498 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: for the bureau now, right. But the thing was, Jimmy 499 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 2: wanted to still do business with me. And if you 500 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 2: can imagine, now, we're kind of like school kids and 501 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 2: they all have a crush on me, and they all 502 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 2: want to date me, and they all want to make 503 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 2: money with me. But the thing is, Jimmy now has 504 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 2: to trump Louis. Louis already trump Jimmy because he's always 505 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 2: on time, his money's always good, and he's connected. So 506 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 2: Jimmy tries to trump Louis and I meet him in 507 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 2: a mall. As I'm there in a meeting, he says 508 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 2: to me, my uncle is a soldier, and again I'm 509 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 2: playing stupid. I go, he's in the army. He goes, No, 510 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 2: he's a soldier in a decap of can'ta crime family. 511 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 2: My uncle is Charlie Stangele doesn't mean anything to me, Jimmy, 512 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 2: Is he going to give you the money you want me? 513 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 2: Because that's all I want to hear. Is your uncle 514 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 2: going to give you the money? No? No, no, listen 515 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 2: to me. I could go to my uncle and he 516 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 2: can give us permission to sell this stuff in the 517 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 2: street and we can do all lists this and this 518 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 2: great tape. I go back to the bureau and the 519 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 2: bureau says to me and a case agent say this 520 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 2: is great. See the problem is and the bureau knew 521 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:08,159 Speaker 2: this at the time. Charlie Stango, he is feared. Fear 522 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 2: isn't the word I can use to describe the vibration 523 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 2: of fear that he sends through the organized crime community. 524 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 2: I mean guys like John Gotti would hear somebody like 525 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 2: Charlie Stango. He is a gangsters, gangster, the persona of 526 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 2: a gangster. He's in his seventies. As I'm having this 527 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 2: conversation with Jimmy, he's being released on parole for murder. 528 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 2: An absolute maniac. So you can imagine as I walk in, 529 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 2: you can see in his eyes ice blue eyes, but 530 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 2: they black over like a shark's eyes, and sits me 531 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 2: down right next to him, stares into my soul, just 532 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 2: looking at me, kept repeating my name, first and last name, 533 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 2: Giovanni Gatto, Giovanni Gatto, Giovanni Gatto. How was that spelling 534 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 2: to tease? Yeah, and he's just sniffing and he goes, okay, 535 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 2: Charlie says, Okay, I'm gonna let you do this meeting. 536 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:56,439 Speaker 2: I'm gonna let you do this thing in the street. 537 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 2: And now he's looking at his nephew and he says, 538 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 2: so you see what's happening here, right, I'm vouching for 539 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 2: you with Danny. You embarrass me or you do something, 540 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: I'm gonna let him do what he has to do 541 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 2: to you. Do you understand me? And you can see 542 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 2: the hesitation in Jimmy's eyes. He's reached a point or 543 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 2: a threshold in his world and a level of acceptance 544 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 2: that his uncle has never given him. So he goes, 545 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 2: you see what I'm doing here, right? Yeah? Uncle, I see, No, 546 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 2: you don't, and he just belittles him like a sociopath 547 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 2: would do. What I'm doing is I'm putting you with him, 548 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 2: and I'm vouching for you, and me vouching for you 549 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 2: is telling them you're good for the money, and if 550 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 2: you screw this up and you do something bad, I'm 551 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 2: gonna let these guys have you and they're gonna kill you, period, 552 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 2: and that's it. And I don't care if you, my nephew, 553 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 2: now you want that, And of course, what do you 554 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 2: think Jimmy says, yes, I want that, and Jimmy was 555 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 2: excited and things were going great. And once we started 556 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 2: making enough money, Jimmy had hit me up and said, look, 557 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 2: go buy another Barner phone. I'm gonna give you a number. 558 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 2: It's my uncle. He wants to talk to you. Call 559 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 2: him on a Berna phone and he says, yeah, you know, 560 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 2: come and see me in Las Vegas. I want you 561 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 2: to come out here. We have to have a conversation. 562 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 2: So you're gonna forget Louis. You're gonna sell a Louis. 563 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: You're not gonna be with Louie's crew or anything like that. 564 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 2: You're gonna you're gonna come under me and you're gonna 565 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 2: answer to me, and you're gonna start reporting me on 566 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 2: a daily basis. 567 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 1: And you've been listening to Giovanni Rocco telling one heck 568 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: of a story as only he can tell it. This 569 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: language of his, this mastery of the gab, the gift 570 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: of gab, and his credibility as a wise guy, well 571 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: it wasn't fake. He had earned it as being a 572 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: wise guy himself of sorts, not a mobster, but man, 573 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 1: he was around them, he knew how they spoke, how 574 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: they talked, how they walked, and thus that made him 575 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: a perfect undercover cop. Just listening to him takes you 576 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: back to the real specificity and brilliance of the Sopranos, 577 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: where those street corners came alive, those pork stores, and 578 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: the places where the Italian second and third general Asian 579 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,239 Speaker 1: Italians hung out and just shot the bowld together and 580 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: lived that life, the life of well, not working very often, 581 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 1: and when the work came well, it was ugly, it 582 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: was dirty, and it was the life that these guys chose. 583 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: When we come back, more of Giovanni Rocco telling New 584 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: Jersey story Sopranos style on our American stories, and we 585 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 1: continue with our American stories and with Giovanni Rocco, who 586 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: is by now an undercover agent for the FBI infiltrating 587 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: the Northern New Jersey rackets, the Northern New Jersey Mafia, 588 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 1: which was perfectly captured in the Sopranos as someone who 589 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 1: grew up in and around those neighborhoods. And my goodness, 590 00:27:55,400 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: those neighborhoods included Newark and Jersey City and Hoboken and Elizabeth. 591 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 2: Let's pick up. 592 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 1: With Giovanni Rocco where we last left off. 593 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 2: And my relationship with Troli from that point on has 594 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,719 Speaker 2: now exploded. It has now become a father and son relationship, 595 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 2: not just an associate relationship. I am out in Vegas 596 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 2: all the time. I'm going back and forth, and eventually 597 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 2: he does stick his hands in my pocket. I have 598 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 2: to start kicking up, and I have to start you know, 599 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 2: I know the money's going towards organized crime. I'm kicking 600 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 2: it up to him. He's explaining that he's a captain. 601 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 2: He's explaining to me that he wants to bring me 602 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 2: in on this thing. He's explaining his status in the 603 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 2: organized crime world and with the family of the Decavs. 604 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 2: He's explaining to me who the bosses are, how the 605 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 2: administration works, the inner workings of it. He has given 606 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 2: me a tutorial of tutorial and I go home every 607 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 2: time I can get home. I'm trying to be home 608 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 2: and I'm trying to balance my criminal world and my 609 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 2: crime family with my real family. And it was a disaster. 610 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 2: My wife said to me, it's going to end horrifically 611 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 2: for us. You know, her law enforcement brain is much 612 00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,959 Speaker 2: smarter than mine. You should stop doing what you're doing, 613 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 2: and how can I stop doing what I'm doing. I'm 614 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 2: all in here, I'm in this is the best work 615 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 2: I've ever done. I'm committed to this, and I'm addicted 616 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 2: to it. I'm not leaving this fast forward. And some 617 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 2: things happened throughout the case where I was at a 618 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 2: soccer game for my daughter and I took the weekend off, 619 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 2: and you can only imagine. Here I am in board shorts, 620 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 2: flip flops, and I looked nothing like Giovanni Gatto and 621 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 2: I'm Giovanni rock over for the weekend. And I met 622 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 2: my daughter's game and up walks an associated from the 623 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 2: Gambino crime family. And here I am in my family. 624 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 2: I'm in New Jersey. I don't have kids in my underworld. 625 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 2: So when I had flanked him and came around, I 626 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 2: came from his side and I yelled his name and 627 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 2: I said gooms as a sign of affection, gooms, gooms, 628 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 2: And he looks Giovanni Yeah, and he says, what are 629 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 2: you doing here? I said, what do you mean when 630 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 2: I'm doing it? I mean for soccer, come here, you know, 631 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 2: And I was I going for the kisses. My wife 632 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 2: seized this, and my wife knows something's up, and thank 633 00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 2: god she did, because we always had a plan of 634 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 2: escape plan, whether it's on her side or my side, 635 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 2: how to get out of something. She grabs my kids 636 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 2: and wrangles them up. I mitigated it well. I pulled 637 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 2: a story out of my and I walked away, and 638 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 2: I left the whole field. I just walked and I 639 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 2: finally called my wife and I said, look, I got 640 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 2: to get home. I can't. Obviously I can't come back. 641 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 2: She knew that. And I heard the excitement and a 642 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:21,959 Speaker 2: voice and the stress in her voice, and she was like, 643 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 2: and I said, just maintain your composure. Relax. She goes, no, 644 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 2: you don't understand his daughter that came up and said 645 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 2: hello to you. She's playing against our daughter in the 646 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 2: next game. And she is the first time they had 647 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,479 Speaker 2: our surname, our legitimate name, across her back of her jersey. 648 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 2: I said, all right, relax, just maintain your composure. Just 649 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 2: get through this. Send my father, he has his card. 650 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 2: Just tell him to come pick me up. I'm walking 651 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 2: on the side of the road. He'll pick me up, 652 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 2: bring me home. From that point going forward, we realized 653 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 2: as a family it wasn't good for me to come 654 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 2: home anymore. I would fly out to Vegas regularly. It 655 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 2: went really well, so so well that Charlie decides that 656 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 2: he's going to go above and beyond and he's going 657 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 2: to go on record with me, with the family, with 658 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 2: the administration. Where it's Charlie. Let it be known for 659 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 2: now on Giovanni speaks for me. When you speak to Giovanni, 660 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 2: you're speaking to me through Giovanni. What eyewitnessed was I 661 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 2: was invited that day to the pork store to satri 662 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 2: ells and as I come around a corner with my 663 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 2: Cadillac Escalade, he sees me and I look out the 664 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 2: window and there's the central casting of the Sopranos all 665 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 2: decked out and their suit jackets and at leisure. You 666 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 2: know they're they're decked out. They're there for a meeting. 667 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 2: It's the powerhouse, it's the administration, it's the underboss, it's 668 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 2: other captains. There's people from the neighborhood who have come 669 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,239 Speaker 2: out to pay their respects. Guys from the family are 670 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 2: there and they're all waiting outside. It went off with 671 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 2: out a hitch. He started building a crew for me. 672 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 2: I had about six guys reporting to me on behalf 673 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 2: of Charlie, and then one day he decides he's going 674 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 2: to put his son Anthony under me. When I went 675 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 2: and met Charlie at a high end restaurant, I celebrated 676 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 2: I had a really good school, or asked him if 677 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 2: I wanted to go out to dinner, and in that 678 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 2: dinner there was a moment of trust there that he 679 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 2: had started sharing about the administration's conversations and sharing me 680 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 2: about Louis and I was like, well, yeah, you know, 681 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 2: so what's to deal with him? And then he explains 682 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 2: the administration is not happy with him, and therefore the 683 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 2: administration decided that it's time for Louie to go. I said, well, really, 684 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 2: a guy that you know your whole life, This kid 685 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 2: grew up in this thing, like you know, you're just 686 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 2: gonna he's gonna kill him. Yeah, yeah, he's disrespectful. Bosses 687 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 2: all got together and decided that it's time for him 688 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 2: to go. But I sat down and they told me 689 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 2: what the plan was, and I told him I told 690 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 2: him that you would do it. He said, why you 691 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 2: got a problem with that? Very very aggressive. I said, no, 692 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 2: I don't have a problem at all. And yeah, Charlie, 693 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 2: Charlie looked at me and you know I love you. You 694 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 2: know I love you started coming out from all kinds 695 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 2: of people. We finished up at the house and again 696 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 2: my last conversation was in his house and I challenged 697 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 2: him and I said, again, I gotta ask you, Charles. 698 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 2: It's not that I'm not going to do this, but 699 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 2: I'm worried about how it leaves me. And he grabs 700 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 2: the remote and turns it up. He's listen, you get me. 701 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 2: I see what he's saying, but the investigator in me, 702 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 2: I have to get him to verbalize that. Now I 703 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 2: don't know what you're saying. And I grabbed the remote 704 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 2: and I lower it down to where it's decibel's where 705 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 2: you can hear his talk. I said, no, I don't. 706 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 2: He goes listen to me. This gets done in November. 707 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 2: I go up. When I go up, you go up. Okay, 708 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 2: they're going to open up the books and that's that. 709 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 2: In November. I'm more parole. When I'm once, I more parole. 710 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 2: I'm going up. I could be number two. And he's 711 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 2: trying to explain to me he's going to be made 712 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 2: either an underboss or constantlyeer or something. And there was 713 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 2: whispers of that. So I said, so, wait a minute, 714 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 2: I'm getting upped. He goes, yeah, that's why I'm telling 715 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 2: you not to worry. What do you think I'm saying 716 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 2: to you. I'm going to propose you and you go up. 717 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 2: I said, oh that changes thing all together. That's beautiful thing. 718 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 2: He says, yeah, okay, bang, And that was it. I 719 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 2: say my goodbyes, I gotta go. I was feeling it, 720 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 2: like you know, I said my goodbyes. They were my 721 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 2: final goodbyes. And I had to be real careful well, 722 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 2: not to get emotional, not to get like you know, 723 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 2: upset or shaking or sweaty or clammy. And I sorry, 724 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 2: I can give me a hog. I'll see you later. 725 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 2: And he says, all right, come on, walk you out, 726 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 2: Walk you out to the garage. And he's excited. He's 727 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:13,360 Speaker 2: like a little kid who was standing in the garage. 728 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 2: His shoulders are bouncing, he's bouncing, he's all quirky and 729 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 2: he's like, yes, it's good, Like, yeah, I can't wait. 730 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 2: I said, yeah, I know, I know, I know, I 731 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 2: can see it. You're excited. You're crazy, You're mad man. 732 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 2: He's like, I know, I know, but I wish I 733 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,839 Speaker 2: could be there with you. I really do, I said, 734 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 2: all right. He goes, listen, take a couple of bottles 735 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 2: of water. It's you know you're going to be dying 736 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 2: at thirst. What times your flight Call me when you 737 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 2: get there, all right, I said, Well, I'm not going 738 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:35,800 Speaker 2: to kill him. As soon as I get this, y'all. 739 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 2: He goes, No, I'm asking you, she said. It's snow 740 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 2: and I want to make sure you got home. Okay, 741 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 2: just call me and make sure you tell me you landed, 742 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,720 Speaker 2: all right, I mean just snow and everything you flying, 743 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 2: if you get the layed or whatever, I don't care 744 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 2: about that. I'm not worried about that. I'm worried about 745 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:52,280 Speaker 2: your getting home safe. I said. Okay. So the next morning, 746 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 2: everybody got rounded up, doors got kicked in. So my 747 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 2: family's relocated to an undisclosed location. I had a lot 748 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,359 Speaker 2: of my kids for me years. They just thought we 749 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 2: were on a real extended vacation. And when I tell you, 750 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 2: we packed bags. My kids had to go through evac plans. 751 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 2: And my little guy, uh, he was young at the time. 752 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 2: He was a toddler at the time, and imagine at 753 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 2: one o'clock, two and o'clock in the morning. The bureau 754 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 2: is telling you you have to train your son to 755 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 2: run to his favorite spot and that's where he will 756 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 2: hide in case anything happens. Built a safe room in 757 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 2: the house and all kinds of stuff in case to 758 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,359 Speaker 2: hold off until till they can get there. And I 759 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 2: was relocated and we were living in one safe house 760 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 2: or were someplace, and my daughter had gotten she was 761 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 2: she was in grade school. And you know when kids 762 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 2: get books, one is mandatory. You have to read that 763 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 2: the teacher gives you, and then you could pick another 764 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:40,760 Speaker 2: book you know you want to read for the summer. 765 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 2: And she came home in a book and it's the 766 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 2: name of the book was Greetings from Witness Protection. I 767 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 2: was like, why this book. She's like, I don't know. 768 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 2: It looked good. It was like a Judy Bloom type 769 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,800 Speaker 2: of book for little girls. And I was like, Okay, 770 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 2: that's going to be the book. And a few days later, 771 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 2: like here's mister tough guy, mister covert operations, and I 772 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 2: could talk my way out of anything. And this little 773 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 2: girl comes out of her bedroom like two or three 774 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 2: days later, she goes, I'm reading my book. And my 775 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 2: wife and I were standing in the kitchen and she says, 776 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 2: can I ask you, son, are we in witness protection? 777 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 2: When I tell you ID, I just looked at my 778 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 2: wife and I was like, you got this right, and 779 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 2: I ran out. I got to go do something. You 780 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 2: take care of this, and my wife and her true 781 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 2: just Italian delivery is just like, well, what do you think? 782 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 2: You know? You're you're not. You know you're not a 783 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,879 Speaker 2: stupid kid, you know. So again along the way, I've 784 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 2: talked to them, and when the time is right, I 785 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,399 Speaker 2: sit them down and talk to them. But it's hard. 786 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,839 Speaker 2: When I got unplugged and I retired, I'm like, what 787 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 2: do I do now? I started doing public speaking for 788 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,359 Speaker 2: law enforcement and first responder stuff, and then I got 789 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 2: into the world of treatment, mental health and substance abuse. 790 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 2: So it helps me, right, sharing your stories having a 791 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,800 Speaker 2: podcast now and it's out of the Mob Museum in 792 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 2: Las Vegas. It's the same thing at treatment. If you 793 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 2: share your stories with somebody else and they can identify 794 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,040 Speaker 2: with it and realize, oh my god, so I'm not 795 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 2: I'm just not processing and trauma and you can help 796 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 2: them get through it, you know, the analytical part. I 797 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,399 Speaker 2: try to empower everybody when I do my presentations, and look, 798 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 2: I'm gonna tell a story of an undercovered world. But 799 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 2: you know, whatever your job is, whatever your function is, 800 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 2: just apply it to your your purpose, whatever your skill 801 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 2: set is. Apply what I'm saying to your skill set, 802 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 2: you know, so hopefully it encourages them. Somebody along the 803 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 2: way said something that's struck a nerve in me, and 804 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 2: now it's just pay it forward kind of thing. You know. 805 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter how much money you make, It doesn't 806 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 2: sometimes that's the reward. That's the payment. 807 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 1: And a terrific job on the production, editing and storytelling 808 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 1: by our own Greg Hengler, and a special thanks to 809 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: Giovanni Rocco and also the Mob Museum in Clark County, Nevada. 810 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:50,359 Speaker 1: Giovanni is the author of Giovanni's Ring, My Life inside 811 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 1: the Real Sopranos. One day the family's in a safe 812 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,839 Speaker 1: house with a safe room inside the safe house, all 813 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: to infiltrate the Mob, and my goodness, getting that close 814 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: to a captain and then to somebody who would one 815 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: day be an underboss, well, that's the gold standard for 816 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,399 Speaker 1: this kind of work. The story of Giovanni Racco here 817 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 1: on our American Stories